Mark and Grace Driscoll Get Real: Episode 206

It's a new year, and we're looking forward to some great opportunities in 2012 here at Boundless! Martha and I will be traveling to RADICAL in February where we'll have the chance to interview our friends David Platt, Kevin DeYoung, Dr. Al Mohler and others. We'll also spend time with Steve and Candice Watters. Boundless reunion — woot!

We're still anticipating the big reveal of our new site, and brand look and feel, so stay tuned for that, probably mid to late spring. In conjunction with that we'll be out and about telling new folks about Boundless, whether at events, at college campuses, on radio shows or wherever people will have us. If we're in your area, come find us!

Finally, we're into big goals here at Boundless. In addition to our personal goals, we're looking at getting new guests for the show. We talk a bit about that in our Facebook vid this week, and you see evidence of that in our interview with Mark and Grace Driscoll. Join us in the journey in 2012!

The Bachelor on Trial -- 00:00

Everyone's buzzing about this season of The Bachelor. Is it harmless fun, a waste of time or something worse? Since it's essentially a study of the modern dating game, we felt it was worth dissecting. Join our panel in examining the good, bad and ugly in ABC's top-rated reality love-fest. Oh, and there's a little bit of Bronco love on the front end, because hey, they're still in the playoffs!

Marriage Is Messy -- 24:48

Mark and Grace Driscoll's marriage should be a bad statistic, but by the grace of God, it's not. They're still together and doing better than ever as they take life and love one day at a time. They're also not afraid to share their journey in hopes of helping other couples avoid the mistakes they made, and their new book Real Marriage reflects much of their story. We talk about some of it here as Mark and Grace unpack themes like friendship, men in marriage, respect, the effects of abuse and other important lessons. Here's a picture of us during the interview. I'll have more once I bully Dave into downloading them off his camera.

Infatuation Warning -- 57:13

She knows she's infatuated: sitting on Facebook staring dreamily at guys' profiles or making up details about men she's never met certainly fits the description. But she's not sure what to do about it. Candice is in the hot seat with advice to help this dreamer get a grip on reality.

Music this week is provided by Andrew Greer. Learn more about his album Angel Band: The Hymn Sessions at www.andrew-greer.com.

Comments

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1. MizattA said the following at 5:30 PM on Jan 12:

I think my biggest gripe in this podcast is that Boundless was too concerned with offending someone then to post something, which falls far too often into the Christian catagory in America. We worry more or less about what offend someone or something than do something and let people hear all available information...I am well aware of the issues that that chapter presents, that was voided, but I think its a chapter that too many christian react negatively too, because deep down we are still overly prudish in categories and or afraid of talking about sex in detail. I would have loved for Boundless to include that part of the interview if not to stand up for the idea that giving people information, sometimes honest information isn't likely to keep everyone happy all the time. I would have liked to seen someone in the Christian circle be open to the idea that we hide sex too much, fear sex too much and are as a christian culture dangerously hiding information that people should know before marriage not just after from them... It gets kind of wearisome to see so many christian organizations, preachers, and overall churches run from the topic of sex instead of embrace, and teach on it, which is something pastors preach far too little on, and people get information far too late on outside of the worldview...

2. Rebekah Lewis said the following at 5:43 PM on Jan 12:

Hey Lisa,
Hope you have a blast at Disney...though definately not a place to meet single people...though maybe Disney would sponsor a "boundless day"...what a great way to bring us all together and have a bit of a conference!!! :)

3. Rebekah Lewis said the following at 5:45 PM on Jan 12:

PS> Speaking of Tebow...might he come visit you at Boundless? :)

4. Ashina said the following at 7:14 PM on Jan 12:

I think we fool ourselves if we think media doesn't influence and/or hurt us. Our worldviews, our families, and relatinship with Christ. Don't get me wrong, I think there is plenty of shows that are great.. educational and edifying.. not for mere indulgence of entertainment.

5. Anonymous said the following at 7:38 PM on Jan 12:

I know of people in the Seattle and overall Washington state region who minister there and can testify to the fact that multitudes of young adults ask: "As a Christian, is [insert sexual position or form of sex here] okay?" Granted, there is this issue all over the world, but it is sometimes more prevalent in some areas than others.

Since I have respect for Focus on the Family's position on this issue covered in Chapter 10 of the Driscolls' book, I will not name those said positions and various types of sex, but I'm sure we can all fill in the blanks. I say all of that to say this...

While I believe there is nothing wrong with various forms/positions of sex between a married couple in which BOTH people consent (and it is not painful/BDSM), I will say that there are men who have seen pornonography online in which women are seen performing sexual acts or being in certain sexual positions and *act* as it they enjoy it; "act" being the key-word. In reality, some (if not many) of those positions can painful/uncomfortable for the woman, but the porn "actress" pretends to like it. The men who watch this porn assume that if the lady online likes it, then the wife will like it; and, maybe, some will. But some won't.

Yes, as Christians in a hyper-sexualized world, we DO need to address this, but it must be done in a tasteful manner. In such regions as Seattle, the more blunt and open you are, the more productive the discussion will be; hence, the Driscolls' book is very helpful. In other regions more conservative in terms of having "the talk", one can still use the Driscolls' book while maybe using words that are less-direct.

And, still, like Lisa Anderson has said... This is only one chapter in a book with many chapters and helpful insights. And, yet, because we are all sinners and only hear what we want to hear, we will automatically focus on Chapter 10.

Such a shame.

6. Kellie said the following at 9:18 PM on Jan 12:

Don't care much for Mark Driscoll....he's a little too harsh and sterotypes too much.

Think I'll skip this podcast.

7. SarahJane said the following at 12:02 AM on Jan 13:

Such good timing on the Driscoll interview. Thank you.

8. Lisa Anderson said the following at 9:24 AM on Jan 13:

MizattA: It wasn't a case of not wanting to speak the truth or offend; we do that a lot at Boundless. :) Instead, it was a desire to honor those in authority here at Focus and abide by a greater ministry position of neutrality on that chapter of the book. Much has already been said on chapter 10 in other outlets; I was much more interested in getting the rest of the interview out than battling for a few comments on a chapter that wasn't core to the work as a whole.

Rebekah: I would love to interview Tebow! If anyone has connections, let me know.

Kellie: Please give this interview a chance; I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I know I was.

9. Tami said the following at 10:39 AM on Jan 13:

I haven't heard this particular podcast, nor have I read or know much about Chapter 10, but I have to say that I've noticed that Focus' perspective on a number of sensitive topics has been much less dogmatic than others (including Driscoll). Driscoll, for all his bluntness and apparent "anything goes" on certain areas of marital relations, takes a harder line on some other things than I believe the Bible takes.

I also respect Focus' stance here because hey, Boundless is technically a site for unmarried people (or at least, one where we are welcome to discuss issues pertaining to our unmarried-ness), and, at this point in my life, I don't need to listen to that discussion. For a number of reasons. Just sayin'.

Furthermore. I believe Lisa when she says that to make it about "Chapter 10" would be distracting from the main point she was hoping to get across. Another famous pastor is doing a bit of a stunt to promote his book on sex and I find it tacky. Whatever point he hoped to make is lost (to me) in the fact that he is doing this thing more focused on marketing and sensationalism than edification. YMMV but that's how I see it.

10. Jen from Boston said the following at 1:02 PM on Jan 13:

I have to say - I'm glad that the Bachelor is included in this episode. I'm a fan...unfortunately! :P

11. Maria said the following at 5:48 PM on Jan 13:

Mark Driscoll is one of my favorite pastors, so I'm really glad you did the interview with him and Mrs. Driscoll.

I haven't read this book, so I don't know how racy the sex chapter is. But I've listened to many of his sermons online and haven't been offended by any of them.

12. Ria said the following at 9:13 PM on Jan 13:

I was encouraged by Mark Driscoll's words that marriage is continual forgiveness and repenting. That is the sort of life my boyfriend lives before God, and as we get closer his attitude is becoming more and more of a blessing in our relationship too...glad to know we're on track.^^

13. Kellie said the following at 10:25 AM on Jan 14:

Lisa: Okay, I listened to it. Nothing bad (nothing I found particularly helpful either), but it doesn't excuse the things Driscoll has said that are hurtful to others who don't share his views.

14. James said the following at 7:46 PM on Jan 14:

I haven't listened to the podcast yet but congrats on the playoff game commercial. It was very cute, and I could tell just from the style you'd established it was from Focus. My one criticism is that it used the more modern translation of "will not perish", instead of "should not". The implications of that difference cannot be ignored imo. Still, it brought a smile to my face.

15. Emily said the following at 11:07 AM on Jan 16:

I really appreciated the disclaimer that you gave, Lisa, prior to the Driscoll interview. Also, I appreciated that you left the discussion of chapter 10 out of the interview. As a single, I do not believe that listening to the discussion would have been edifying to me. It probably would have just led to unnecessary fantasizing about sex, which I try to avoid. Don't get me wrong. I can't wait for married sex with my husband. However, I have no need to learn more about various sex positions prior to marriage. I hope that my husband and I will learn together, once we are married.

Regarding The Bachelor, this is one show that I really do have a desire to watch, but have chosen to abstain from watching. Regarding media in general, I recently had the thought that when I am contemplating whether or not to watch something, I should ask "As a child of God, is this TV show/movie worthy of entering my mind?" While this doesn't mean that I abstain from anything that has any hint of sin, I do avoid watching shows if I do not think that there is anything edifying about it.

16. AM_UK said the following at 7:46 AM on Jan 17:

Hey Lisa, I'm weighing in from across the pond in Edinburgh, Scotland just to say that; 1. Yes, we know the bachelor show. I watched all of last season's bachelorette (after hearing some of the media hype) and got sucked right in. I couldn't believe it when Ashley DIDN'T accept Ben's proposal! Shock! Horror! Surely they were destined to sail off into the Sonoma sunset together??? It was then that I began to question the way things in the show were edited - and the fact that clearly the viewers were being made to think Ashley was falling for him when clearly 'oh, no she wasn't'! ..Anyway, back to this season..lol. My point is, I heard that Ben was the bachelor this year, so AGAIN I jumped right in to begin watching the first episode and then the second; And then, last week I suddenly stopped after the second show finished and thought; WHY am I doing this? WHAT am I watching it for? Is it really harmless or am I fooling myself by somehow trying to 'live vicariously' through these shows? My first thought was that at best, they would help me - a shy, introverted 33 yr old single woman - learn HOW to talk to single guys, engage their interest, be less afraid or uptight in their company, be more interesting conversationally...
At worst, surely they were a valuable examination of today's dating culture/climate when talking about these issues in church and HOW to help today's non-Christian singles? Yes, I know. I know. But I'm being completely honest. These were my initial justifications for watching the show! Now for some reasons why I probably SHOULD NOT be watching. I am 33, have never dated or had a boyfriend and am at a stage in life where marriage and kids are 2 of my biggest dreams. After fasting, praying, waiting on the Lord, I have reached a point on the single road of simply being in a state of shock that God's plan for me doesn't yet include these things. And there, where I am most vulnerable, somewhere in my mind, the thought that lodged itself was that 'someone like Ben would be perfect for me - or Ben, if only he were saved'. Yup, I actually thought that. :(
THEN I saw the previews for episode 3 - and all the date excerpts where Mr. Perfect was planting kisses on the lips of nearly all of the women in the competition and I realized...Ok, maybe not..maybe not. Lastly, I began a comparison game; did he like her because she was blonde? She had a better figure? She seemed more outgoing? Or would he consider dating a black girl like me? SERIOUSLY, I'm KER-RAZZZY, right??! So this week, despite serious temptation, I realise that the bachelor and I have to part ways, BEFORE it becomes an unhealthy obsession. And I no longer see how this show could NOT be harmful to us as single Christians - particularly to us women. The over-sexualization of the show should be enough to warn us off ...but so should the idea of women actually entering into competition with each other aggressively pursuing someone with the false hope that he could love them enough to MARRY them after only a few weeks. Perhaps everyone else out there is 'stronger' than me and I'm the only fool that can't handle watching the show regularly. But, well, I think we could all do with examining our hearts...
2. For ALL of the reasons just listed above, despite my curiosity and 'wanting to know' about Chapter 10 in the Driscoll's new book, I am GLAD they cut that part out of the podcast interview. And despite how what I have written here may sound, I don't have huge problems (no more than any other typical Christian single!) and I know that if you met me in your church singles group I would be the LAST person that you would think of that would be struggling with this. I am after all a 'good girl'. This was hard to put down in words, so to those who took the time to read to the end; Thank you! And thank you to Boundless for helping us singles by starting the right conversations at the right time.

17. Emily said the following at 10:24 AM on Jan 17:

AM: Thanks for your comments! They were beautiful! =)

18. Lee said the following at 3:24 PM on Jan 17:

How is "The Bachelor" a study of the modern dating game?

I don't know anyone who dated/got engaged under such contrived conditions.

19. brx said the following at 6:44 PM on Jan 17:

While I agree with Kellie that Driscoll does tend to stereotype heavily in some areas of relationships and comes across as insisting 'that's the way it should always be', I think the interview was pretty good and insightful. :) I hope still more pastors will start being more open and honest about their own shortcomings.

And, the extensive disclaimer that Lisa made gave me hope taht someday she might publish an interview with Rob Bell! :)

Grace, peace & adventures with the Lord in our big crazy family!

20. Trevor Dolby said the following at 4:01 PM on Jan 20:

Having finally listened to this, I have to say that I really like Mark Driscoll's reality-based approach. Saying things like “you certainly will” about things that are obvious is a good place to start :)

I do rather wish he'd been asked about the possibility of the wife being so disrespectful and unteachable that the man wanted to seek recourse from a pastor's wife (that is, switching around Lisa's question at ~45:20), but possibly that issue is addressed in the book . . .