Do You Have a Friendgirl?
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 01/11/2012 at 8:58 AM
I love the refreshingly honest way in which Joshua Rogers throws down tough-to-handle truths. And today's featured article "Your Friendgirl Deserves Better" is no exception. In it, Rogers tackles the buddy relationship, friendlationship, pseudo relationship — whatever you wish to call it — but this time with a charge specifically to men. He begins by describing a conversation he had with a young guy who was spending lots of time with a girl he had no intention of dating.
He's like so many young men who are "just friends" with single, young women who believe the relationship might actually be going somewhere. At best, these guys are unwittingly part of a relationship that deceptively looks like a good deal for both parties. At worst, they’re willfully blind to the ways they feed a relationship that largely just benefits them.
So in a way, it's a classic case of friends with benefits, only in the cases Rogers is referring to, the benefits stop short of the sexual variety. Which is maybe why Christian guys think these pseudo relationships are OK. But Rogers goes on:
If you're one of these guys, it’s time for a wake-up call. It’s time to recognize that there’s something more important at stake here than your convenient relationship with your friendgirl. What’s at stake is her heart.
He then provides a helpful checklist for discovering if you have a friendgirl:
You might have a friendgirl if you're friends with a woman you never intend to marry and . . .
- You know she’s interested, but you figure that as long as you don’t kiss her, she will understand that the relationship is platonic.
- People ask if you're dating her, and you act surprised every time.
- You've had to sheepishly explain that she's "like a sister" to you.
- You think that defining the relationship means passively aggressively hinting that you’re not into her.
- When she calls you, you hang out with her if it's convenient.
- When you call her, she drops everything to be with you.
- You justify continuing to hang out with her — despite being uninterested — because, well, you never know, maybe an attraction will eventually develop.
Having experienced being the friendgirl, that list made me cringe. There's a lot of great food for thought in this article, but the bottom line for men with a friendgirl? Rogers says either make her your girlfriend or break up with her. She deserves a man who will actually pursue her — not someone who's biding his time until the woman he really wants comes along. Like I said, tough truth to handle. But truth nonetheless.
1. clair said the following at 9:18 AM on Jan 11:
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His two options in the article are man up and date her or break up with her....
but I think another good point to bring up is if you dont want to date her, why not? You share your heart with her, you like hanging out with her, she shares your faith, etc.....Its been my experiance watching friends be "friendgirls" and myself too that many times the man is biding his time for someone better...when he has a great option already.
and as a girl, being a "friendgirl" is a hard line...I haven't held on for years, but I have held on for several months before because sometimes I've friendships slowly develop into more (particularly when both parties are scared of ruining what they have) -- but sometimes its not happening because one party isnt interested. It takes time to know...and as a girl, its wise to guard your heart - be his friend, not is pseudo girlfriend.
2. Ashley (the original flavor) said the following at 9:21 AM on Jan 11:
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Ahhhhhhh!
Where was this article in 2005 when I needed it!? WHERE!?
Also, in the interest of fairness, I'd note that this problem is not particularly unique to men. Women can "friend-zone" "strictly-platonic" guy friends as well.
Constant communication, openness, and transparency can help alleviate these kind of friend-lationships. I've been able to maintain only two of them in my (admitedly short) lifetime. In the first situation, he was incredibly forthright in expressing his non-attraction, and in the second we mutually agreed that anything romantic was out-of-the-question early on.
By contrast, the fellow that led me on for four years was never open or descriptive about his feelings for me (or for other women around him) and left everything vauge and open to interpretation. Even his final refusal of my affections was wishy washy "I can't say that I don't see something happening between us, but I wouldn't wait for me if I were you."
WHAT!?
Four years of leading me on and he didn't even have the testicular fortitude to say, "I'm just not that into you."
I will say that the experience made me tremendously sensitive to carrying on shenanigans like that with other guys in my life, and probably laid the groundwork for me to become the kind of forthright woman I now am in relationships. At the end of the day, it is my conviction that it is beneath Christian men and women to have a "bull pen" or a "backup plan."
You have a plan, and if that plan doesn't work out you find a new plan. Don't keep someone stringing along because you're too much of a sissy to be on your own, whether you are male OR female.
3. Jennifer said the following at 9:52 AM on Jan 11:
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Man... I was the friendgirl so many times that I can testify all this is all too true. It's just as much the girl's fault too. When you're the friendgirl, somewhere deep inside you know it. You're living in a dream world where he finally comes around. It's emotionally exhausting and misleading for both parties involved.
Now that I'm an actual girlfriend (to a guy who was intentional about dating me from day 1), I confirm that these friendgirl relationships rarely end well.
Ladies, if he wants to date you, he'll date you. Plain and simple. And you're worth it being in a relationship that clearly defined.
And to the guys, I know the attention is addictive, especially if you're lonely, but do the girl a favor and cut her loose sooner than later. Eventually you will meet a girl you really do want to date and you don't want to break any more hearts than necessary.
4. Cam said the following at 9:58 AM on Jan 11:
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As the friendgirl, it's very hard to be the catalyst for the relationship change. I've had a couple of experiences where I woke up and realized he just wasn't that into me and really needed distance to recalibrate my heart. Both times this eventually ended the friendship, because I guess I didn't handle it well... I wasn't wanting to admit my feelings to certain rejection but the space I needed was misread as anger and avoidance.
I'm not sure the right way to do it, but I guess there's just going to be guilt involved since I feel bad changing friendships just because I developed a dumb crush..
5. Katie P. said the following at 10:01 AM on Jan 11:
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Wow, what a great article! Although I am a woman, this article described me PERFECTLY a few years ago when I was in my late teens/early 20s. I usually had a 'friendboy' of some kind that I was spending time with. To be horribly blunt about it, they were usually guys whose company I genuinely enjoyed, but who I wasn't attracted to. Through some hard conversations/exhortation I was made aware of my bad behavior, and adopted a policy of 'no close guy friends unless we are dating' rule. Generally, that has served me well. However, I do still struggle with the issue of 'treating men as brothers' thing. I am emotionally close to my own (biological) brother - we talk about things that are important to us. How does one put this in to practice with men that you know, without getting into some kind of awkward faux relationship?
6. Dan F said the following at 10:13 AM on Jan 11:
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Good article. I have definitely slipped into those kind of friendships before, though mostly through naievity rather than malice, then trying to distance myself from the lady. Bit of a mess really, definately made me more cautious on one on one friendships with my sisters in Christ.
However...
This swings both ways. Too many articles paint a picture of evil, immature, fallen men, surrounded by almost flawless Godly women, sweetly going on their way whist being maliciously strung along by men. Both sexes are fallen, men and women. As a man, I see massive problems with the male gender and in myself as part of it. But too often the flaws in men are pointed out with no balance, and it ain't that encouraging.
Girls do exactly the same, just by different means. In my experience, girls are the first to place men in the just friends paddock. Its all well and good when you are hanging out in a group, but as soon as you try to pursue, they say "sorry, I just see us as friends". And there may not be any leading on, but women are so guarded that you have no clue either way: you get along really well, brilliantly even, but other than that it is a leap in the dark. How is that any better than a girl hanging out with a guy because she things he likes her?
Now, I'm sure you will say, well you weren't strung along, she let you down before strong emotions so it shouldn't hurt. The problem is, having been (correctly) told that you are pursuing for marriage, not for casual dating, you can't avoid getting building up emotions before you even ask, as you have to like the girl enough think it might go somewhere. So you are caught: you have to like a person who you have no clue whether they like you, and in the expectation that they are going to say no. Not all that fun.
7. laura grace said the following at 10:15 AM on Jan 11:
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This one's going to explode. (I wrote on it on my own blog recently and my hits went berserk, so I know of what I speak.
You know what I'd like to see? A roll call. Ladies, how many of you have fallen for this? I have, more than once, and nearly all of my female friends have, so I suspect it's really, really common.
8. Dave said the following at 10:26 AM on Jan 11:
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What, pray tell, is the benefit of this situation (relative to a society in which either party might initiate)?
9. Corwin said the following at 10:28 AM on Jan 11:
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I know this article was written by a man to men, but it still left me wondering why there is no mention of a woman's responsibility. (Though in fairness Suzanne, I know you’ve written similar posts directed at women before). :)
Sometimes it seems like we take the "men must be the leaders" rule so far that women are automatically relegated to be the helpless victim in all inter-gender relations.
I've had friendships and heard stories from other guys where it has been stated expressly that it is just a plutonic friendship and there is no interest in taking it further. The female friend says she feels the same way and then down the road is upset because she feels he led her on.
There are some guys that do like having these ambiguous pseudo-relationships while they see if there is something better out there, but there are also some women who invest themselves into these relationships even after it has been made clear that their feelings will not be returned.
I think both sexes have a responsibility to be assertive when it comes to clarifying a relationship; men should be clear about their intentions and women should demand clarity about his intentions. Then both should act accordingly.
@Ashley TOF (2):
LOL!!! I am definately going to use this phrase sometime!
10. Tami said the following at 10:36 AM on Jan 11:
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Dan F - as the comments appeared, I think you'll see many women do recognize that they, too, can be culpable. And I do agree that we need to be careful to not make men the bad guys and women saints pure as the driven snow, responsible for nothing.
But can I ask for some clarification? You wrote:
"Its all well and good when you are hanging out in a group, but as soon as you try to pursue, they say 'sorry, I just see us as friends'... How is that any better than a girl hanging out with a guy because she things he likes her?"
If you truly are hanging out ONLY in a group, then it's quite different from a guy who spends a lot of one-on-one time with a woman, but has no interest in her. I enjoy hanging out in groups with men and women, but that doesn't mean that, automatically, any guy in the group is a potential date (and I don't expect that any guy should necessarily think "she's in the group, de facto I should ask her out"). It's possible to enjoy a group of friends but not be romantically attracted to *that one particular person*. Sure, one's eyes may need to be opened to another person's potential, but I don't think that "no thanks" from one person in a group of friends hanging out is the same as dangling a person along by spending hours and hours together connecting emotionally but not addressing any particular romantic side of things (especially when you're the one who enjoys the company, but doesn't want anything romantic to happen).
Is that what you meant? Or are you saying after both group AND one-on-one interaction, it's still unfair for a woman to pull the "just friends" card? If THAT is the case, then yes, it's really lame. Or if, in the group, she's flirting with you but then says "no, we're just friends," then I think that's lame too.
But if you are ONLY hanging out in a group, then I do believe it's different. The level of emotional connection is not the same as hours of alone time.
11. alli said the following at 10:37 AM on Jan 11:
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what i have learned is men do what they want. And a women they love is worth paying the bill. The entire bill and most men if they love a women and its not for like conveinence or completely selfish reasons will do what it takes and marry you. I have been the friend girl but wasnt intially trying to be it just happens when you spend to much time with someone. But i dont think i have led anyone and if i have i got out of it with a quickness but i didnt realize at the time that anyone took me so seriously. So its really not fair because the bottom line is if you have sisters most guys would rather hang out with their friends and not their sisters anything else is really a fake relationship. Most guys have wives for their wives and friends for their friends.
12. MizattA said the following at 10:57 AM on Jan 11:
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Lauara said
"You know what I'd like to see? A roll call. Ladies, how many of you have fallen for this?"
I'd like to see the same roll call for women who did this to men as well and am a betting man the number of men friend zoned and strung along by women is just as high as vice versa. Its not just men that do this.
We are not responsible for the entire feelings of the entire female population we are only responsible for our own. Therefore acting as if we are the scapegoats in these situations where women have feelings but don't step up and say date me or I am done is ridiculous. Same goes for men when women do it too them. I also seen way more cases where the guys would be willing to ask the girls if they have more feelings for them then the guys do and the girls will lie to them because they rather live in the fantasy than have that hard conversation with the guy. If guys are lied to then we are not responsible for any emotional dealings that follow you with that lie.
That being said we live in a culture where Men spend too much time with men and not enough time in cross gender situations. Women only hanging out with women not in enough cross gender situations. God says we are to treat each other like brothers and sisters in Christ which means Men hanging out with men and men hanging out with women and nice versa and that not every single time a girl and a guy are hanging out means something more than two people just hanging out and having fun. Teaching women they shouldn't hang around men unless feelings are there causes hurt when they only hang around those who they have feelings for. Guys only hanging around girls they are attracted to teaches guys that they should treat women as nothing more than attractive humans who they might be able to get something from...etc. How do we expect men to learn how to appropriately learn how to communicate with women and how to relate to and with the opposite sex when we tell them that their social time should be around men only and vice versa. Men cannot treat women like sisters in Christ if the only time they can speak to or spend time with them is either in group setting or date settings. women cannot learn to be good sisters in Christ if they are told the only time they should hang out with men outside of groups is if they will put a ring on it...etc.
We as Christians and as a culture do ourselves a great disservice by telling men to date or not but if your not going to date the women hanging out with her one on one is a sin when it is not. We tell women to only compliment men they care about and only to do nice stuff for those they like. That isn't sister and brotherly love and that isn't Christ like...that is doing something to get something selfish in return instead of doing something to help or grow the other person with no selfish gain in mind, but maybe a fun time in mind while growing both yourself, but more importantly the other person...
I strongly, strongly believe that the reason there are so many issues like this is we rot peoples brains with lies that if men and women hang out they either have to like each other or have to be in groups...That hanging out should lead to dating or it should only be happening with the gender you are. Problem lies when men relate, bond, communicate one way and women another so when you enter marriage and spent all your social time around your own gender it takes 3 billion times longer to learn how to express, talk and function with the opposite sex because before you were married you abused your time and didn't use it to learn to grow as a person and to understand how to talk to and do stuff with both genders not your own. Putting yourself at a beyond unhealthy and unnecessary disadvantage by only hanging out with the gender who thinks, acts, processes and bonds the way you do instead of challenging yourself by spending more time around the opposite sex as well thus learning how to think like they do better, express like they do better, and to bond with them in a way that they can bond with you so that you have a better understanding in marriage and thus can relate to each other early on far better than a lot of women and men do right away...
13. laura grace said the following at 11:06 AM on Jan 11:
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Oh, also, please can we not immediately degenerate into "But GIRLS do it TOOOOOOOOO"? Duh, obviously they do, and that's been addressed here. But this instruction is for guys. The fact that women are sinful doesn't actually stand in opposition to the fact that men are sinful.
14. MizattA said the following at 11:16 AM on Jan 11:
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"Duh, obviously they do, and that's been addressed here. But this instruction is for guys."
I think the problem stems from the Fact men are usually the only ones who get called out on this, or who Boundless and other christian leader focus on. I think more men would like to see the same instruction for women and see it just as often as they hear themselves criticized not less or as little as we often do.
15. Dan F said the following at 11:16 AM on Jan 11:
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Tami - hehe, yes it does seem like there is some backing: I started my comment when only 2 people had commented, and came in at number 6!
Ok, to the clarification: I see your point as to difference between one to one interaction and group friendships. There is a difference. What I meant was that there comes a problem as to when a girl is flirting or just being friendly in those group situations: its the same mixed messages. The problem is probs at my end, being totally inept as to reconising which is which. But this again raises the problem: if you ask the girl out on a coffee date, even if she says yes you don't know whether you are just hanging out or whether she likes you.
But as I said, I was once one of those naieve young friendboys, and so now am more cautious. This results in being in a catch 22 situation: to meet girls worth pursuing, you have to be friends with them, generally in a group situation, but if you are in a group situation, that generally means that you are in the paddock.
I too enjoy spending times with my close group of friends, which includes both men and women, and most of whom I don't fancy. The problem is that there is an assumption that as we are in the frindship group, nothing will happen to go beyond friendship, which causes a bit of an issue if you do like someone in that group. Its a more blameless situation, but you still end up with pain.
Hope that makes sense! I can attempt to clarify more :-)
16. Sarah P. said the following at 11:29 AM on Jan 11:
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I agree with the principle that it is unwise to be one-on-one best buddies with a man. I believe it is possible to have men be brothers, however. The difference is that I focus on my own business and go about it, leaving space for others to act and observing how they act. Don't run away from anyone out of fear, because fear is not from God. Keep distance if I observe they are attracted/hurt by me, and I am not by them, since that is a way to love them. If they are unaffected, but I am troubled, I take responsibility for myself and my own pain.
The men I can call brothers will act the same way. We give each other distance and respect as adults.
17. Sarah said the following at 11:32 AM on Jan 11:
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@ #11, Alli - what you say is the truth. Men do what they want, and if they want you, they'll figure out a way. Otherwise you're just that nice girl who listens to their problems and bakes cookies for them, etc. Women, we as a whole need to WAKE UP. Stop romanticizing these relationships, stop romanticizing your life...and face reality. Men operate under a COMPLETELY different code than we do. Thinking of someone's potential hurt feelings really doesn't come into play with them much; that's not a slam on men, it's just how things are. Quit letting yourself get used! Part of it is your fault, too - and, without painting it with too broad a brushstroke, I'd be willing to bet a lot of these one-sided, pining away deals are with the team captain, youth group leader, Alpha male dudes in your circle...and, unless you're the super cute "Belle of the Ball" NEWSFLASH - he doesn't want you. So, if a man is showing true interest, and being upfront with his intentions - great, get excited and all that stuff that people do when they're "in like". If not, be pleasant, be kind, see these men strictly in a Christian Brother capacity, and go on your way. He doesn't like you in a romantic sense, and he never will. You will save yourself much heartache when you become practical and realistic in regards to your life.
18. laura grace said the following at 11:38 AM on Jan 11:
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MizzatA, I am not trying to paint all men with the same brush. My "roll-call" comment was purely motivated by curiosity -- I'd love to know if this happens as often in other circles as it has in mine.
Honestly, there have been so many posts on Boundless that address the stupid things women do to sabotage themselves or lead guys on. There have been posts rebuking girls for putting nice guys in the "friend zone." But it seems like every time there's a post with a strong word for men (who are supposed to be leaders, remember?), people just come out of the woodwork complaining about how much guys get piled on. Come on. If it doesn't apply to you, just move on. NOBODY is accusing all men of doing this, and guys who have behaved appropriately toward women who still get offended by this word are just looking to get offended.
Re: friendships, I understand your point there. I wrote recently about how silly (and potentially dangerous and sinful) it is for brothers and sisters in Christ to try to distance ourselves from one another to try to prevent sin. But that's not what's in view here. We're not talking about a guy who has lots of healthy relationships with women, some of whom he meets for lunch or coffee occasionally, or exchanges emails with, or whatever. We're talking about a man who spends intensive, one-on-one time with ONE female friend as often as he would with a girlfriend -- sometimes even knowing that the girl is interested in him -- with no intention of actually asking her to BE his girlfriend. At the risk of sounding like a courtship book from the 90s, that's defrauding, and it's not ok.
19. DNP said the following at 11:41 AM on Jan 11:
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I wonder if there will be an article next week entitled, "Do you have a friendguy?"
It seems that the article should have been written about the behavior of both genders.
20. Corwin said the following at 11:56 AM on Jan 11:
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@Dan F (6) & Tami (10):
I'm going to disagree with you on this one Dan (though, I can relate to the sentiment behind your post!). I think it is the exact opposite of leading a guy on when girls do this.
I think some of the friendlationships that develop happen because of a gap in communication styles between the sexes.
Men think "I told her we're just friends, so there is no way she can be confused," while women think "He said he isn't interested but spends so much time with me, and has deep talks with me, and remembers things about me, and cares about my life, so he must not have meant what he said."
Or conversely, men think "She never said she isn't interested in me so there is hope," while women think "I never ask him about his life, always tell him I'm busy when he asks me to do things, and I never smile at him; there is no way he could possibly think I like him."
When a girl is upfront enough to explicitly say "I don't like you that way," it makes things refreshingly clear for men. Same thing for woman (I think) when men keep them at an emotional distance. Girls and guys who know how to communicate effectively with the other gender can save each other a lot of head and heart aches!
Or maybe I'm way off with that observation...
21. Delilah said the following at 12:03 PM on Jan 11:
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Hands down, this is one of the best articles I have seen on Boundless. And it's because it is so true.
If a man doesn't put in the serious effort it takes to be with you, then he doesn't really want you. That's the bottom line. There is no secret code.
Us ladies need to realize it,accept it and graciously move on, so that the man that does really want us can step in.
Otherwise, nothing from nothing leaves nothing.
22. RCC said the following at 12:19 PM on Jan 11:
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The greatest problem about these "friendgirl/ friendboy" situations isn't so much the lack inititive or leading someone on as much as building emotional intimacy with someone of the opposite sex who you are not in the process (dating/courting) of considering as a possible future spouse. Wait to build the deep emotional connection with the person you could consider marrying and in in the meantime build your connection to the Lord and to your sisters(ladies) and brothers(gentlemen).
Why can't we go back to when the only reason a respectable single gentleman would seek out a lady's company and when she would choose to be alone in his company was when they were interested in each other romantically and would date/court each other to determine if they could marry each other?
23. MicahT said the following at 12:21 PM on Jan 11:
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Based on previous things I've read from the original author, you'll all have to look elsewhere for anything that says "but women do it too". It's a waste of time to dwell on that.
He's addressing what can in some cases be a real problem and something we should all be aware of to protect each other.
While not his intention, one can infer the best solutions are for women to do the pursuing, ask those "defining the relationship" questions, and for men to simply not become close friends with women in the first place.
Think it can't happen?
Accusing men of being "defensive" as the article shows when accused of being selfish manipulators simply because they carpool to church with a woman they don't propose marriage to isn't going to get us all in the right direction.
24. Virginia said the following at 12:23 PM on Jan 11:
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I agree that the guys have a big responsibility when it comes to their interactions and relationships with girls so as not to lead them on or play with their emotions. To those of that are arguing that girls have just as much responsibility in this regard, I think that in general, girls are more easily and frequently led on by guys than guys are by girls. So guys, for the sake of the girls in your life, please take heed of the advice offered in this article!
BUT…we girls often create half of the problem (no surprise there, right?!) by allowing our imagination and dreams to create more of a relationship than there is in reality, resulting in a one-sided emotional attachment. I know that I’ve been guilty of this before, and it is something that the Lord has been convicting me of recently. Nevertheless, for us girls, our challenge is to “take every thought captive to obey Christ” (2 Cor. 4:5, ESV) by exercising self-control in our thought life and keeping a tight rein on our imagination. (And yes, it’d help if this type of daydreaming weren’t so fun and didn’t come so naturally!!)
Oh! And Corwin (#20) - I think you've hit the nail on the head!
25. Dan F said the following at 12:29 PM on Jan 11:
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Hi Corwin -
You hit on something really interesting there. There definately is a difference in communication that makes this all a bit tricky. I think that women generally tend to read more into things than men based on body language etc rather than what is said. But we can't be too black and white about this: both sides can hold out hope just because they want to, or think they have done enough in their actions to say nothing is going on.
And I totally agree: sometimes clarity is a breath of fresh air. Some of my best and very closest friends are women. They are like real sisters to me, i.e. I relate to them with the warmth I relate to my biological sister. The friendship with one of them started when she said to me (essentially): "right, we are going to be friends. Nothing will happen romantiacally", and it has been good because of that.
Now, I think one interesting point may be that I wouldn't dare say that. Why? Well, I wouldn't presume that all women who want to be my friend fancy me, so for me to say that to someone is making that presumption, which can be a bit arrogant. Think about it, if I went round all my female friends and said "sorry my dear, I just don't fancy you", I would probably get a telling off for believing that they had any itent on me.
But, if you are in a close group of friends, and you take a shine to one of them and ask them out, rejection isn't a breath of fresh air. Actually, your response is generally: "bother...". I can't read women, so I hope (for the reasons you pointed out), get my hopes up because they are nice to me (as I can't tell flirting from friendliness, especially when the ladies in question are attempting to appear not bothered), and then feel a bit bummed out when they don't recriprocate.
Or maybe I am just a bit soppy... :-)
26. MicahT said the following at 12:45 PM on Jan 11:
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22. RCC:
"Why can't we go back to when the only reason a respectable single gentleman would seek out a lady's company and when she would choose to be alone in his company was when they were interested in each other romantically and would date/court each other to determine if they could marry each other?"
There's nothing stopping you from living your own life out like this. Like the original article intends, it would mean the disappearance of casual male/female friendships. If you know any marriages that began as friendships, it would mean the disappearance of those too.
27. Nicole said the following at 12:52 PM on Jan 11:
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I totally agree with the statement that Men do what they want. It is absolutely true, for good or for bad, even in the smallest things, if a man doesn't want to do it, he won't. This is why it is pointless to nag. In my observations the only reason a "nice guy" will transform into a "good man" is because the right woman has entered his life and he chooses to.
I understand now that I'm a little older that until a man makes a solid efford to SHOW me he means it, he does't really mean it at all.
28. Ann said the following at 1:21 PM on Jan 11:
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The irony of this all is that the guy I am currently in a relationship with told me that the thing that initially attracted him to me is that he COULD talk to me as just a friend, and that he could tell I wasn't secretly hoping for more. He felt comfortable talking to me on a simple friendship basis, and appreciated the fact that I wasn't hanging around with expectations that he would eventually ask me out. I honestly hadn't given him a thought in any romantic way until he did make an actual move.
I have treated all my guy friends like this, and while I have inadvertently hurt a few due to unmet expectations (and was hurt once myself as I thought something was happening when there wasn't) the thought of NOT having these friendships is very unappealing to me. They have given my life a great deal of richness. The catch is using wisdom and not expecting them to be like my girlfriends. Ie, not hanging out one on one, or phone calls or excessive texting.
There is no easy, step-by-step, fail safe way to manage this sort of thing.
29. Ashley (the original flavor) said the following at 1:26 PM on Jan 11:
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Worked for me!
In all seriousness, though, for the most part Corwin is Dead. On. on this one. Girls are EXPERTS at reading into things. You know how many English classes are taught on the Symbolism and Metaphors of To Kill a Mockingbird? I'm pretty sure that I wrote about three papers on it between high school and college. Did you know that Harper Lee has gone on the record as saying that she never intended for the book to have symbolic meaning? Girls read your actions like an English Major disects literature. Don't plan on anything otherwise. I caught myself at it just again the other day after overhearing a snippet of conversation of interest between my boyfriend and his Dad on the phone. The easy solution to that is Ladies: just. don't. Go. There. I know it's hard. But if you must know: Ask questions first and jump to conclusions later.
Now, I'm kind of an odd fish these days because... in spite of being extremely feminine, I've always been a Daddy's girl, I spent a lot of time hanging out with "the guys" in college while they played video games, and being "emotional" was really downplayed in my household growing up (My Dad would frequenly ask us if we were "turning into a girl" on him :P) Then I had the experience I described in college -- and so when I was meeting new people I had a pretty strict playlist that I stuck to. I became forthright to a fault -- essentially arriving at a place where "You should take me out sometime" was the modus operandi of getting asked on a date!
(My Goodness! You Heathen!, yes yes, I know, I've heard it all :P Hey, the guy that hits the 10 point buck with his car still gets venison for the winter, eh? What does the hunter who sits in his tree stand at the salt lick and sleeps get?)
That being said, we live in a culture where being flirty and feminine is increasingly a thing of the past. When the whole world is like SEX SEX SEX all the time, the reaction by teachers of young women in the church has often been to swing the pendulum 180 degrees in the opposite direction. "Give the guys you like the cold shoulder, lest you be tempted by Satan! If the Lord appoints you a husband, he shall have the determination, strength and skill to scale the walls of your ice fortress and join you in the blissful tropics of matrimony" at the same time they urge them to "Treat the guys around you like brothers." So basically, ignore the guys you like and be friendly to the ones you don't!
AUGH! No wonder guys are so confused!
Then you ADD to this equation, Non-Christian guys who are unbound by Joshua Harris retoric but are down to the "pretty" and "innocense" they see in Christian girls in a world of "hott" and "naughty" women. And you have the presciption for "The Only Guys that Ask me out are UnChristian!" it's all just a recipie for disaster.
The best thing you can do for yourself (and your friends of the opposite gender) is to do an often and in-depth self analysis of your motives. Are you nice to that guy or girl because you enjoy them, because you feel sorry for them, because you like the attention you get from them or because you have unacknowledge romantic feelings for them? Which of those motivations are you OK with? Do you need to continue to invest in that relationship or do you need to pull back?
30. jayme said the following at 1:39 PM on Jan 11:
30
Yeah, women do it too. Yeah, it's up to women to guard their heart.
But the article was about taking responsibilities for the impressions that men are probably giving women by spending lots of exclusive attention to women.
So, men, are there women that you think you're giving the impression that you're romantically interested in them when you're not? Not sure if they have that impression? Ask them. Or take a step back.
So, women, are there men that you're giving the impression that you're romantically interested in them when you're not? Take a step back?
If you're a man:
You can’t control her actions. You can’t control what she thinks your actions mean. But its Christian courtesy to treat her kindly, but fairly. Fairly means treating her as she should be – a sister in Christ and the future wife of a different man.
If you're a woman:
You can’t control his actions. You can’t control what he thinks your actions mean. But its Christian courtesy to treat him kindly, but fairly. Fairly means treating him as he should be – a brother in Christ and the future husband of a different woman.
Re: Best friends before dating leads to marriage
MicahT(26):
Saying that men & women should be BFFs before dating because there are some marriages that started that way, doesn't mean that it's the best way to start a marriage. It also doesn't mean it's the most typical way.
I don't have any stats, but I would say that most marriages didn't start with a single man and a single woman being very, very, very good friends before dating. I would say that "best friendship" developed during dating and engagement, rather than before. At least that was my experience. And I haven't seen a whole lot of guys that are serious about marriage say "I gotta be her BFF befor a coffee date". Most of them serious about marriage get to know the woman to some degree, then say "I gotta make this official before someone else snags her up."
31. Ashley (the original flavor) said the following at 2:04 PM on Jan 11:
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jayme, I think this statment, and it's sister statement in the paragraph below need to be unpacked:
In my experience treating those of the opposite gender "like a sister" or "like a brother" is often a contributor to this problem. Some people have extremely affectionate relationships with their siblings, others do not. One person's "Like a sister" is another person's "WHY IS HE TRYING TO HUG ME!?" I know I still find it supremely weird when my Christian "brothers" tell me they love me. Even if their wife is standing right there.
32. laura grace said the following at 2:16 PM on Jan 11:
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MicahT, you said: "Accusing men of being "defensive" as the article shows when accused of being selfish manipulators simply because they carpool to church with a woman they don't propose marriage to isn't going to get us all in the right direction."
Um, where is anyone accusing men of being selfish manipulators for carpooling with women they don't intend to marry? That's absurd! Am I reading a completely different article than you are?
Here's what DOESN'T count as "friend-girling" someone: carpooling, grabbing coffee or lunch together now and then, chatting, emailing, sitting together at church, even having serious spiritual conversations, as long as those things aren't exclusive. I have several guy friends (married, engaged, dating, and single) who I do stuff like this with occasionally. I don't think they're friend-girling me at all, and I'd challenge you to find me one sentence in the original article that indicates that the author would count carpooling (of all things!) as friend-girling!
But here's what does count as friend-girling someone: a guy doing all of what I listed above, PLUS opening his heart, sharing his dreams, and seeking emotional comfort, exclusively with one girl, without having any romantic interest in her. We're talking about a level of entanglement where, if the guy were married, we'd call it an "emotional affair." THAT level of relationship is what's being objected to here -- monopolizing a girl's heart without having any interest in her.
33. jayme said the following at 2:17 PM on Jan 11:
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Ashley: Yeah, that's just weird. There's still a difference between a "Christian" brother a "real life flesh and blood, grew up wrestling with you" brother.
34. MicahT said the following at 2:18 PM on Jan 11:
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30. jayme
I never claimed men and women must be best friends for a romantic relationship to build. You're exaggerating here.
35. Dave said the following at 2:50 PM on Jan 11:
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Re: MizattA (#12):
Really? Wouldn't it be more accurate to suggest that people spend a far larger portion of their time interacting with those of the opposite gender than at almost any other point in history (excepting past interactions between siblings and parents which wouldn't count).
I came across a rather interesting article a week or two, entitled East European Women and the Battle of the Sexes in American Culture, which addressed global differences in gender relations and their impact when people immigrated to America. A brief excerpt:
Perhaps the problem is no so much a lack of contact, but the attempt to asexualize human interaction?
36. Paul said the following at 3:28 PM on Jan 11:
36
To the guys complaining about women doing it as well, might be time to have a look at 1 Corinthians 13:5 and ask yourself 'Was I easily angered about this? If so, why?'
Also, to use MizattA's words from #12, "men relate, bond, communicate one way and women another". To which I would agree and add that the way you exhort and confront women about sin is different to the way you do it with men.
Men often need to be 'called out', given a wakeup call and have their bell rung for the message to get through. Women, on the other hand, are, on average, far more sensitive, and wouldn't react as well to the kind of rebuke that is issued in the article. A more gentle approach is usually appropriate, and that's what you see (when you look for it) amongst the Boundless articles.
That said, even if there is a bias, so what? Boundless is pretty clear in promoting appropriate male leadership in relationships. Part of the price of leadership is getting more than your fair share of the feedback, good or bad.
For example, most CEOs make perhaps no more than a dozen decisions that count in a given year (that is, decisions that another CEO would do differently) and yet they praised, criticised and rewarded largely based on the actions of the rest of the company. I saw an article yesterday that complemented the abilities of the CEO of my old company, where I know in fact that 99.9% of the work that was being praised was really done by the CFO he brought into the company and her staff. It’s the same deal for our political leaders, too.
So if guys are getting called out a little, fair enough, I say. What I would also like to see more of on Boundless is guys getting praised when they get it right.
As for the meat of the article, as someone who recently realised that I was starting to head down the 'friendboy' route (fortunately it only took a couple of weeks to realise) I'm not looking to blame the girl. I knew she was a very friendly, sociable, touchy-feely person, and still I let myself think that there was perhaps something more. Is her behaviour hard to read and sometimes leads guys to wonder? Certainly. I wouldn't be surprised if she got asked on a lot of dates as a result, but by the same token it may be hard for a guy she is actually interested in to tell, since she is so friendly with everyone else.
And you know what, if I can't or don't want to handle a friendship with her, the solution is pretty simple - I put some distance between us. Stop initiating conversations, stop commenting on facebook when she says something funny, stop texting her unless I have a particular reason to. It doesn't stop us interacting in a group, but it has given the distance for me to let my feelings catch up with reality. :-)
37. Tamsen said the following at 3:32 PM on Jan 11:
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@ Dan F. #15
While asking someone to go for coffee or generally to "hang out", it would be great if the wording could indicate in no uncertain terms that it was a date of sorts. In the culture of Friendboys/girls, it's always been hard for me to tell what is considered a date and what isn't. People try so hard to be friendly and nice to their brothers and sisters in Christ that it's hard to tell when one party is after something more.
I know that part of *my* problem was addressed in the article a week or so ago about being "boy crazy". I have always quashed those feelings, so now that I am trying to fix the ice queen business, I notice that I'm having a problem reading signals. This wouldn't be so bad if the action signals matched up with the verbal cues. The words "I'd like to go out some time" mean something completely different than someone you just thought of as a friend calling you up and saying "I have some comp tickets to a movie and heard you wanted to see it. Wanna go?"
(This was actually an experience of mine. If I had heard more date-specific language, I might have tried to act more like a date and less like a buddy b/c I thought that's all he was after. I figured it out sometime later when I realized I hadn't said anything to anybody about that movie...plus a couple other things lol)
So I guess it does come down to a communication issue. If the girl is trying not to assume you like her, then the guy not using date specific language makes her think it is something else. Worse yet if she DOES have feelings for him, and thinks that, by what he says/how he introduces the prospective activity that he (with a possible track record) doesn't mean it as romantic, she might decline.
To get personal, I have a guy in my life who is a good Christian. I'm sure I contributed in someways to being his friendgirl, but the stuff he shared, the time he made for me, and the singular attention made me think there could be something more.(we have school together) I decided it was ok to like him, ready to share my reciprocation if he made a move. Next week, he started telling me about a girl he met and how funny it was that she took his friendship to mean that they were quasi-going out. I pulled back and made the decision that if he asked me to do anything one-on-one, I would say no. I like him too much already to put myself in that situation.
I guess what I'm trying to say that if a guy isn't careful from when he first starts getting to know a girl, if he doesn't pursue her soon enough, he may get slapped into the friend zone reciprocally.
This makes me want a man to woman dictionary like an English to French Dictionary etc. Then I could just look things up and know what they were supposed to mean.
38. MicahT said the following at 3:34 PM on Jan 11:
38
35. Dave
The women in that study are experiencing the culture shock of moving to the U.S. Sexual harassment in the workplace is taken more seriously here.
In an effort to protect against real harm, people walk on eggshells afraid of innocent and harmless behavior being taken the wrong way.
39. Tami said the following at 3:39 PM on Jan 11:
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Dan F - Thanks for the clarification!
As someone else here wrote, I don't think it's possible to avoid confusion and hurt in this life; we are likely, at some point, to misread someone's cues. But I do think that -- as Christians -- we owe it to each other not to purposefully mislead others, and to be aware of how our actions (even if innocent) might effect them.
I must admit, I don't run into the "we're all friends, we can't possibly date one another" scenario; nor do I think I've ever come across that. It stumps me a little. I agree; it seems like your circle of friends is the best place to start, especially if there's more-than-casual interest on someone's part.
40. Elle said the following at 4:25 PM on Jan 11:
40
I agree with MizattA (#12):
That being said we live in a culture where men spend too much time with men and not enough time in cross gender situations. Women only hanging out with women not in enough cross gender situations.
I'm not sure if I'm coming from the same cultural context as Mizatt, but you definitely have a point here; gender segregation or clustering (and I say gender, not sex; it's feminine with feminine and masculine with masculine)isn't healthy for anyone's relationships. How can you expect to have a healthy, intimate relationship with a partner if you can't at first hang out with girls/guys? Gender divides create discomfort and inequality; that's not natural or healthy for anyone. This issue is separate from leading on a "friend", but I think it's linked; I wouldn't assume that any of my close female friends were trying to become romantically involved with me solely due to emotional proximity. Why would I then assume that of a male friend by suspiciously reading into their actions?
41. Dave said the following at 4:40 PM on Jan 11:
41
Re: MicahT (#38):
I'd agree that it's culture shock, but would you consider, e.g., a church that considered even glancing in the general direction of a woman to be sort of relational commitment to be "more serious about marriage"?
i.e. is it that the US (and many other Western countries) have gone to ridiculous lengths to distill any sexual elements from society that's largely the source of problems noted here?
In the business world asking the wrong woman on a date [or even something less provocative] could easily result in losing your job. Isn't this highly likely to lead to poor communications amongst the sexes - the sort of thing that's the general topic of conversation on this site?
i.e. would we be better with a situation somewhat closer to the Eastern European model?
42. MizattA said the following at 5:29 PM on Jan 11:
42
Paul said
“Men often need to be 'called out', given a wakeup call and have their bell rung for the message to get through.”
I disagree with this statement in that men don't need their bell rung, in fact I see absolutely no biblical support for the loud and rude, level a lot of men try to rebuke or call out people. Jesus says, and New Testament more so through acts and others shows that people should be called out on sin, but in love, so that they repent, not in anger or in a way that attacks them. Have there been times where mentors have told me I need think think on things I am doing/do things differently of course, but the tone and words used were not in a way that attacked me, but a way that informed me...there is no biblical precedence for the attitude of yelling, attacking or of ringing ones bells...which is why at times I strongly dislike the way Mark Driscoll preaches and phrases and words he uses...Yelling at Men with “HOW DARE YOU” phrases doesn't make things better. Expecting men to respond positively to attacks is in my experience silly. You are more likely to shame, anger, or turn someone away from the church and doing the right thing by attacking them, yelling at them or calling them dumb or pathetic(a phrase Mark Driscoll uses to attack men far to often) neither of which benefit anyone.
You can let people know they are doing something wrong in a loving way, and it would be 3 million times more effective then trying to ring a guys bells, at least from my personal experience. The kind of rebuke in tone in my personal opinion is something men should or most often would react positively to either, nor should they. Let alone women.
Dave said
“Perhaps the problem is no so much a lack of contact, but the attempt to asexualize human interaction?”
I think more than attempt to tell women that the only reason for men in their life outside is family or a ring and children, and telling men that the only reason for women in their life is sex or family... I think the church has in a whole and our culture as a whole become so afraid of the oppsite sex that we teach each other to run and hide from them unless we are getting what we want and its not the asexualization, but over sexualization and fear that we try to create it peoples heads involved in that process that causes the bigger issue. That oversexualizing the issue towards kids and marriage of sex and marriage has caused us to not see the opposite sex as human beings and brothers and sisters, but as nothing more than objects, whom to be unhealthily weary of outside of marriage context...
43. Elle said the following at 5:57 PM on Jan 11:
43
Dave #41, I fail to see the benefit of your proposed "Eastern European model".
Employees SHOULD lose their jobs or at least be reprimanded for perpetrating unwanted harassment in the workplace. You're there to WORK, not think about your colleagues as potential dates. Are attractive men/women then never free from being seen as sex objects? Desexualisation as you say does not lead to poor communication between the sexes, it leads to honest and non-discriminatory communication which sees individuals communicating with individuals, not "a man" with "a woman".
44. Spencer P said the following at 6:43 PM on Jan 11:
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Re: Ashley #29
"Give the guys you like the cold shoulder, lest you be tempted by Satan! If the Lord appoints you a husband, he shall have the determination, strength and skill to scale the walls of your ice fortress and join you in the blissful tropics of matrimony"
That was hilarious! I applaud your wit!
45. Erica S. said the following at 7:57 PM on Jan 11:
45
I let this happen to me for almost five years? (It was in high school, though, so I chalk it up to youthful immaturity on both our parts). Horrible situation to be in and he shouldn't have let it happen, but then again, neither should have I.
46. Jeff said the following at 8:10 PM on Jan 11:
46
Hmmm on the reverse, this happened to me a few years back (where I was more like the friendboy). It does help if both sides are clear with where they are going with a friendship.
47. Ria said the following at 8:22 PM on Jan 11:
47
The friendgirl or -boy issue would be eradicated if people just didn't make close friends with the opposite sex. Maybe it's just who I am, but I connect very differently with guys than I do my gal pals. I'm polite and engaging, but emotional or personal topics, physical contact, and definitely one-on-one time, doesn't happen with guys.
I've never been a friendgirl, or in the opposite case, strung a guy along. The relationship with my boyfriend looks so different from my friendships with other men, there's no possible margin for confusion, or insecurity on my guy's part^^
People might say I'm missing out on having meaningful friendships with guys, but I like things clear-cut and respectful this way. Also if I get married, I'd have to give up close relationships with other men anyway...
48. Paula said the following at 8:54 PM on Jan 11:
48
Ah, being a friendgirl. Been there, broke my heart, married a guy who had the guts to ask me out. 'Not Your Buddy' helped me figure out which of the two men deserved my attention.
49. elena said the following at 10:11 PM on Jan 11:
49
laura grace (comment #32), in referencing a warning against carpooling, MicahT was refering to an excerpt from the original article from which this blog post was derived. The following is the second from last paragraph of Joshua Rogers' article:
"Please understand that there is nothing that will 'stir up or awaken love' in a woman's heart like emotional intimacy and spending time together. And it's the little things that open her heart — the two-hour phone conversation, the Sunday afternoon movie, burgers at your favorite dive, riding to church together — whatever it is, moment by moment, you're drawing her in."
In light of the rest of the article, I don't think Rogers meant that guys shouldn't carepool girls or ever have coffee together. However, MicahT's comment did have a basis in the actual text.
50. Thomas said the following at 10:13 PM on Jan 11:
50
After my own experience being the friendboy, where I hung on far longer than I should have (hopeful romantic that I am). I've striven to be worthy of the description Emma gives Harriet of Mr. Knightley, " Mr. Knightley is the last man in the world, who would intentionally give any woman the idea of his feeling for her more than he really does." Have I been successful? I'd be admittedly too biased to answer that question.
51. RCC said the following at 11:37 PM on Jan 11:
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MichahT-26
The point I was making was that today men and women have become TOO close, TOO emotionally intimate with each other. It is not that men and women cannot be friendly and converse with each other but both should take care not to show more interest than they feel for the other. I am not talking about avoiding people of the opposite sex or running and hiding from them but being more aware of how your actions or words might be construed. If everyone around you is asking if you and a specific person of the opposite sex are dating and you have no interest in doing so you should probably take a long hard look at how you are interacting with that person.
52. James said the following at 12:18 AM on Jan 12:
52
Wasn't an issue for me, I just never felt the need to have one-on-one friendships with the opposite sex. (though I am certainly friendly in groups, giving rides, small gifts, etc) Those who I've known who acted like best friends ended up married. I would suspect a guy that acts like that but claims he isn't interested is either 1) lying 2) clueless 3) trying to fulfill an emotional need he isn't getting elsewhere.
53. Dave said the following at 12:37 AM on Jan 12:
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Re: Elle (#43)
The keyword there is "unwanted". That's the crux of the problem.
Here are a few things opposing the existing American model:
(a) It goes against the expressed desires of many women ... one example being those in this study that are upset that they're not "harassed" often enough.
(b) Per Snopes, the workplace is at or near the top of lists of where people are most likely to meet their spouses - again a spouse being something most women desire.
(c) Definitions can border on the absurd as a recent New York Times piece on the subject suggests. Given Princeton University's statement that "sexual harassment may result from a conscious or unconscious action, and can be subtle or blatant", would you suggest firing someone for a subtle, unconscious action?
(d) The term and policies cover an extreme broad range of behaviour - ranging from actual sexual assault to the sort of sillyness covered by point (c).
(e) Are you ever not a "woman" or a "man"? There's some variability from individual to individual of course, but basic cognitive science suggests that gender is a whole lot more than just a bit of plumbing.
(f) Can you maintain the dichotomy of being capable employees with a view that, to quote the New York Times piece mentioned earlier, that they're "creatures too ‘tender’ for the abrasiveness of daily life, too fragile for the streets... too ‘sensitive’ for the difficulties and ambiguities of adult life."
54. Paul said the following at 3:22 AM on Jan 12:
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MizattA (#42),
I think you may have taken my 'bell ringing' phrase a little to literally there, or perhaps its usage is far more figurative where I'm from.
You've interpreted my comments as implying calling out involves a combination of loudness, anger, violence and/or insults. I'm presume (given that you've cited a specific example) that this is on the basis of your own experience, and I'm sorry that this has been your experience. It has not been mine, and thus my words were not intended to convey that. Sorry for the confusion.
The practice of how to rebuke individuals is discussed some in the New Testament, and you are right to say that love is a core theme. To my knowledge, there are no equivalent instructions for the rebuke of groups, but the principles of love, "great patience and careful instruction" (2 Tim 4:2) would relate I suppose.
That said, there are some things said in scripture about groups that would probably cause great offence to those about whom the things were said, both by Christ and the Apostles. (eg. Matthew 12:24, Titus 1:12). Titus 1:13 further commands Titus to rebuke the Cretans "sharply".
So when I hear something that offends me, I try to remember to follow my own advice above and consider why I'm angry (whether it's because I'm being self-righteous or because something is truly wrong) and whether that anger is appropriate for the context (eg. am I really that angry with my friend or is my anger at myself for getting something wrong being projected).
As for Driscoll, he and I are both brothers with you in Christ. If, as is the case with many major Christian leaders, you don’t have opportunity to correct such a brother, then perhaps you could simply leave it to God and have nothing to do with them. (eg. Titus 3:10)
55. Tom said the following at 6:53 AM on Jan 12:
55
For many years I was trying so hard to avoid leading girls on or having ambiguous relationships (due to "friendgirl" type teaching from books/websites like Boundless) that I barely ever did anything with any females 1 on 1. This was bad. It meant that I didn't get to know many women, and had no idea how to relate to women, particularly one on one. The few times I did talk to women 1 on 1 it became super awkward.
So over the past year or so, I've intentionally asked girls (Christian and non-Christian) to do random stuff with me 1 on 1. It's amazing how easy it is to get people to come on what is effectively a date by just being vague and ambiguous! It's been doing wonders for my interpersonal skills and I've had the chance to get to know lots of women.
Here's the thing. Having ambiguous relationships is actually a GOOD thing! Fellas, actually saying "would you like to go on a date with me" or "lets go out sometime" basically only works if you're super handsome and the girl already has a crush on you, or if the girl is really desperate for a boyfriend. But for the majority of us this won't be the case, so when girls hear the word "date" most girls don't think "oh he wants to get to know me that's nice" they hear "this is intense he wants to marry me" and then make excuses why they don't want to.
BUT ambiguous relationships are not a good thing if the ambiguity lasts for more than a couple of weeks and becomes a "friendgirl" relationship. So I never go on regular dates with these girls I go out with, no more than 3/4 times a year (and I don't text/email/talk to them much outside of these dates). When I do find someone I'd like to pursue further, I'll ask her on a second date soon after the first one and have a DTR to avoid her becoming a friend girl.
I hope that this article doesn't cause too many guys to have the problems I had. This article has good advice, but like many things it has the potential to cause harm. So watch out that you don't react too far in the opposite direction from having friendgirls, it's not healthy...
56. a sassy sister said the following at 7:36 AM on Jan 12:
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RCC:
I understand your point. The real issue is the fact that many of us as men and women have been miseducated and misinformed about having healthy inter-sex friendships, and how to properly have healthy boundaries with them. Sidenote: There is a big difference between a fence and a fortress, and some of us need to be honest about whether or not we're closing ourselves off out of hurt and/or bitterness or out of awareness and wisdom.
57. jcs said the following at 8:53 AM on Jan 12:
57
Tom: I've had similar experiences, but I'm confused by your approach. Why do you need to go on 3-4 ambiguous dates a year with women you know you're not interested in?
I've found ambiguous dates to be useful, but for a different reason: They give women a chance to fall for you without "freaking out" and running away when the DTR pops up.
I went through a period when, motivated by Boundless, I tried to avoid accumulating friendgirls, avoiding a friendship when I wasn't interested and doing an early DTR when I was. However, my DTRs *always* got one of the following responses:
(1) "I don't know you well enough to date you."
(2) "I would want to be close friends with a guy first, before I date him."
(3) "I don't know if I like you or not, and it takes me a long time to figure this out."
(4) "This is the first time anyone has ever asked me out, and I don't really know how to react."
These are all women I've casually interacted with for 3+ months (not strangers), and all were 24-29 (no teenagers).
Possibly, my error in these cases was doing a DTR early, before allowing attraction and attachment to build over several months through the friendship. So, for now, I'll stick with the "friendgirl" approach. Yes, in a friendlationship, it's possible for both men and women to get hurt...but if the alternative is protracted singleness, that's a risk we need to take.
58. Tammy in California said the following at 8:57 AM on Jan 12:
58
There is a fabulous book on this topic that does not lay blame with either gender. It has been tremendously helpful to me and has caused me to see things differently. It's called Emotional Purity by Heather Arnel Paulsen. It is a Christian book--I highly recommend it!
59. DNP said the following at 9:43 AM on Jan 12:
59
#43 Elle said:
”Dave #41, I fail to see the benefit of your proposed "Eastern European model".
As someone that has lived in Eastern Europe…I most definitely do!
“Employees SHOULD lose their jobs or at least be reprimanded for perpetrating unwanted harassment in the workplace.”
Who was talking about UNWANTED attention or HARASSMENT? Do you believe asking out a woman at work automatically constitutes unwanted harassment? Should it?
“You're there to WORK, not think about your colleagues as potential dates. Are attractive men/women then never free from being seen as sex objects?”
But wait…don’t about 1/3 of people in the United States meet their spouse…at work? Aren’t people typically in work 40 or more hours a week? Typically people are with co-workers much longer than anywhere else outside of the home. At work you can see people at their best and worst over an extended period of time.
Borrowing from the above philosophy…one could say that you come to church to worship…not to find a date. Or perhaps one goes to a volunteer group to help an organization…not to find a spouse. Does it really have to be an either/or decision?
Is being attracted to someone or asking them out your definition of them being “seen as a sex object”? Where is the line?
“Desexualisation as you say does not lead to poor communication between the sexes, it leads to honest and non-discriminatory communication which sees individuals communicating with individuals, not "a man" with "a woman".”
Actually it has very grave consequences and has let to worse communication. Treating individuals as genderless is akin to treating them as; faithless, without a culture or without ethnicity. Humans are not that generic. When you witness overseas you have to really work within these differences.
60. DNP said the following at 10:28 AM on Jan 12:
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#55. Tom said:
“ Fellas, actually saying "would you like to go on a date with me" or "lets go out sometime" basically only works if you're super handsome and the girl already has a crush on you, or if the girl is really desperate for a boyfriend. But for the majority of us this won't be the case, so when girls hear the word "date" most girls don't think "oh he wants to get to know me that's nice" they hear "this is intense he wants to marry me" and then make excuses why they don't want to.”
Yeah, sometimes using the word “date” can cause a strong negative reaction. I avoid using it in certain circles.
#56a sassy sister said:
“There is a big difference between a fence and a fortress, and some of us need to be honest about whether or not we're closing ourselves off out of hurt and/or bitterness or out of awareness and wisdom.”
Yep…in any pursuit…expect some bumps and bruises along the way.
#57.jcs said:
”I've found ambiguous dates to be useful, but for a different reason: They give women a chance to fall for you without "freaking out" and running away when the DTR pops up.”
Yes, it’s a good idea to try to avoid the “freak out” if at all possible. It can have unwanted side effects.
“Possibly, my error in these cases was doing a DTR early, before allowing attraction and attachment to build over several months through the friendship. So, for now, I'll stick with the "friendgirl" approach. Yes, in a friendlationship, it's possible for both men and women to get hurt...but if the alternative is protracted singleness, that's a risk we need to take.”
Too early a DTR can be problematic. I recommend giving a little more time. Friendlationship?! I LOVE IT!!! HaHaHa! Hey whatever works…
61. RCC said the following at 1:27 PM on Jan 12:
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Sassy sister and others,
Usually a Woman only finds out after many one on one "dates", long phone calls and other indicators that to EVERYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET would signify the guy is interested, that in actuality he doesn't see her that way. This often leads to the woman asking "what is wrong with me? what did I do wrong?" After much soul searching she sees that maybe she made herself too available to the man and resolves to change how she interacts with men. To some these changes are perceived as a fortress but to others they are simply measures adopted to prevent the previous situation from happening again. What else is a girl to do? The advice given is only to deal with these buddy relationships once they have begun not how to not to end up in them in the first place.
What would the gentlemen here advise women do so they don't end up in these situations?
62. MizattA said the following at 1:54 PM on Jan 12:
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"What would the gentlemen here advise women do so they don't end up in these situations?"
Ask for his intentions from the get go? If you dare care more about your heart that an unwritten rule not actually supported by scripture that men are the only ones to ask the questions.
Or Protect your heart, by not letting your mind wonder, or when you start to fantasize about the two of you together, stop and say okay God, thats not where our relationships is at the moment so help me hold this thought captive and remove it from my mind until someone further comes along...Instead of blaming the emotional hurt on the man, only let yourself dwell on the words he has already given you, not what you choose to read into them or think things mean...Go by what happened not what you think, what happened should or does mean....
Ria said
"The friendgirl or -boy issue would be eradicated if people just didn't make close friends with the opposite sex." it would also making getting dates already way harder than it needs to be and is. It would also lead to even more damaging marriages and probably an even higher divorce rate. If men don't know how to relate to women and women don't know how to relate to men. then they are going to think the genders must talk, think, process and work the same. Having close friends of the opposite sex allows you to have time to not only see, but first hand learn the differences and how they come into play in cross gender relationships and more importantly teach you both verbal and relational skills that would otherwise not be there if men only spent all or even most of their social time with men and vice versa...The problems that would arise from men only have close friendships with men and women with women would be far greater and harmful than any benefits...The consequences of males only spending time with males and women with women is that women only learn how to relate to women and men only learn how to relate to men, which is dangerous...
63. Corwin said the following at 2:47 PM on Jan 12:
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@RCC (61):
At some point early in the relationship you need to ask clarifying questions. Probably not the first couple of times you hang out because if he is still not sure what he wants this could make him run for the hills.
But I think once it gets to the point that you are feeling an attachment to him because you have spent time one-on-one together on few separate occasions, then it’s fair to ask him about his intentions.
It could be as simple as telling him that you are not clear on whether these are dates and would like to make sure the two of you are on the same page -- then let him take it from there. Some guys might not realize they are being ambiguous with you, or may be too shy/not know how to bring it up themselves without sending you running for the hills.
Open the door for him to initiate something more. If he doesn’t walk through it, then you pretty much have your answer about his intentions. :)
64. Corwin said the following at 2:56 PM on Jan 12:
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@Tom (55) & JCS (57):
Yep; totally agree with you guys.
Intentionality is often not rewarded and "dating" is such a loaded term for a lot of girls, so often the result is much better when guys are ambiguous (unless they are obvious catches that any women would want to date).
I still think we tend to take dating way to seriously in the church these days and the result is that no one actually dates at all anymore.
65. Paul said the following at 3:33 PM on Jan 12:
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"What would the gentlemen here advise women do so they don't end up in these situations?"
Rebecca St. James argued in the Podcast Ep. 202 that the dating model has changed:
"the dating culture has changed, especially in Christian circles... it's gone from more of a 'guy meets girl, guy asks girl out on a date' ... formal dating approach, to more of an organic friendship-based, community-based approach, which [St. James] ... called 'Starbucks dating'. ...
"[Girls are] holding guys to this old model... the model has changed. ... Every single one of us [girls] wants our marriage to be based on friendship, and that's the approach that [guys are] taking."
jcs (#57) highlighted the problem as well. St. James indicates quite rightly that girls are holding on to the old model in their hearts, but what she doesn't say is that when guys try to be a bit more intentional (and dare I say, old-fashioned) they receive the kind of knock-backs jcs mentions.
While it's not entirely either/or, it is very hard to be both/and in this situation. If you want to avoid the friendgirl situation, my advice would be:
1) maintain a strong relationship with God and a strong friendship circle so that you can have your various needs met appropriately, so you don't need the friendboy,
2) be open to appropriate friendships with guys in this setting, with some close heart guarding as mentioned by MizattA (#62) and exampled by Corwin (#63),
3) expect guys to be intentional if they want more of your time, and
4) be open to intentionality from guys who you perhaps don't know as well as you would like.
If you want to avoid the friendgirl situation, it's very helpful to do 1, 2 & 3, which I believe many women do well in Christian circles, but by not adding in number 4, you're restricting why guys (and God) can work with.
Certainly agree with Corwin (#64) here, that dating is so loaded that it makes 4 difficult.
The reality is there are probably more than a few guys like me out there who are not great at making friends in general, especially with girls, but who are great boyfriend material. (The latter opinion of me is from extended family and church elders who have seen me up close, btw. It’s hard to agree when you’ve only had 2 dates in 3.5 years.)
As an example, for a brief time back in 2009, my social circle loosely intersected with one that included a young lady who piqued my interest. I tried to get to know her a bit better, but within a couple of weeks her social circle was drifting away from me, and I didn't (and still don't) have the social skills to deliberately get myself included in a social circle.
So I did the only thing I thought I could and asked her out to coffee. She replied in a very clear and friendly way that she had agreed a standard with her parents of not going out one-on-one with guys who she didn’t know very well, and that she was only open to seeing me in a group.
There’s a happy ending for her in all of this, in that she’s now engaged. I’ve no idea how it happened, though; we’ve never spoken since, as I’ve never been involved with her or that group again, as far as I can remember.
Do you need to guard your heart? Absolutely.
Is it possible to avoid the friendgirl situation? Yes, but it is difficult in the current culture, requiring careful heart guarding.
Can God bring you a spouse in any situation? Absolutely.
Might you miss out on some quality guys by not considering guys who you don’t know well? Definitely.
66. Kelly-1 said the following at 4:22 PM on Jan 12:
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2. Ashley (the original flavor) said:
"I can't say that I don't see something happening between us, but I wouldn't wait for me if I were you."
Hahahahahaha, I had pretty much the exact same thing said to me once. And (silly me) I took that as a sign that there was hope for the future if not now!
So yeah, I've been a friendgirl, and I've had a friendboy. The difference in the two situations: in the former, I dropped as many hints as I could saying I wanted something more (and he kissed me). In the latter, I often referred to him as my brother and never kissed him. I think that's a perfect illustration of the different communication styles of men and women. Men can kiss you and still deny they were ever interested.
Over Christmas, I had a 3 hour, intense conversation with a male cousin-in-law. It was good but it left me feeling a bit uncomfortable because of the level of sharing. Thankfully, I knew he would relate the conversation to his wife the next day but it was a good reminder of how dangerous it is for me (and, I suspect, a lot of women) to have deep conversations with men they are not dating. It causes me to bond with them.
Thankfully, because of life experience, I don't get stuck in these friendlationships any more. When I meet a new guy, and we hang out a lot, it rarely continues longer than 3 months unless we end up dating for real. I think this is the best way and sure, I still get heartache but the faster it ends, the faster I can get over it and meet the next person.
67. Ria said the following at 4:25 PM on Jan 12:
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MizattA: I did say *close* friendships with the opposite sex. It's not that I shun men or avoid interacting with them, that's hardly possible and unhealthy. I do interact with men and talk with them a lot--it's just that I never try to be BFFs with a man who is not my boyfriend.
Actually I think the problem is rather opposite to what you are saying. I think close friendships with the opposite sex *strengthen* the misconception that opposite sexes can be "just friends:" that is, I can interact with my friendboy as if he is of the same gender as myself and perceiving things the same way, when that is not the case.
If you study male and female communication, you will see very quickly we have different ways of communicating and building relationships, so special care should be taken to modify your behavior in order to communicate well.
Interestingly, the same principle goes for intercultural communication too, and is something I encountered every day studying abroad in Japan!
As a side note, I was raised very close with my younger brother. Growing up with him has made me think men are not mysterious creatures, they're the same species as my brother (haha) and things I observed from interacting with him and his friends have led me to the conclusions I now have about male-female friendships.
68. kmmc said the following at 4:46 PM on Jan 12:
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Hi.
I've been a friendgirl for two and a half years to a guy from church. At one point, he would kiss my hand in front of people. He would tell me that i'M the ony one that understands him. He would on many occasions tell me that i'm beautiful. I finally told him that he shouldn't do these things or tell me i'm beautiful unless he has feelings for me. I told him not to open that door unless he wants me to walk through it. He then proceeded to tell me, in front of all of our friends, that I was his standard of beauty. These exact words: ''you are my standard of beauty''. He even said ''I love you''. This was the first time a guy had told me he loved me (aside from family of course).I finally did a DTR to know where we stood and he proceeded on telling me that he's dating someone else. Honestly, the months following that day were heartbreakingly painful. I stopped talking to him altogether. They broke up 2 months after. After about 6 months, i finally talked to him and asked him point blank why he did all these things. He told me he knew i liked him all this time. At that time, he was feeling alone and he lacked self-confidence and he loved the attention I gave him. He said that he knew he would keep me focused on him by saying that i was beautiful and telling me he loved me. I'm at a point where I seriously do not believe anyone will ever love me. Something shifted inside of me when he told me he did all these things because he was starved for attention. It's like my heart is hard now. I can't let anyone in. I don't want to be with anyone. I can't trust what a guy says or does. I can just relie on God. I am seriously fed up with men.
69. Tom said the following at 5:17 PM on Jan 12:
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JCS 57- In answer to your question, the main reason for the dates I described above is so that when I go on dates with women I'm actually interested in, I'm "match fit" so to speak. It ensures I've kept my ability to talk to women 1 on 1 sharp, and means that I'm less likely to get really nervous on dates, they become almost a normal thing to me. When I do date someone I'm interested in, I'll be ready and able to get to know them and let them get to know me far more effectively than before. And there's often good opportunities for evangelism or edification too.
Corwin 64- good brief summary of what both I and JCS were trying to say I think!
Paul 65- Thanks for mentioning that Podcast, I haven't listened to that one and it sounds very useful.
70. MizattA said the following at 6:32 PM on Jan 12:
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Ria said
"MizattA: I did say *close* friendships with the opposite sex. It's not that I shun men or avoid interacting with them, that's hardly possible and unhealthy. I do interact with men and talk with them a lot--it's just that I never try to be BFFs with a man who is not my boyfriend.
Actually I think the problem is rather opposite to what you are saying. I think close friendships with the opposite sex *strengthen* the misconception that opposite sexes can be "just friends:"
See this is where I disagree with you. That the misconception isn't that we can, but that well drill into peoples heads so much that we cannot, that it hinders the reality that it is possible and healthy in some degrees to have close friendships that are beyond our own gender. The point you and I differ on is that you never really had close relationships with the opposite sex and thus In my opinion wrongfully assume based not on personal experience, but whats been told to you that close opposite sex friendships cannot work out. I on the other hand from personal experience have had plenty of closer opposite sex friendships which have been very healthy and helpful to both my life and theirs and while when some of those get boyfriends the relationship changes a little bit, we can still have each others backs and know whats going on in each others lives without issues in their relationship of our friendship. Our experiences tell us the opposite things, one which says they cannot or should not be done, and the other which says they can be done, and can grow, strengthen and make both people involved better people.
71. Alex C. said the following at 6:39 PM on Jan 12:
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I totally agree with post #12. Said exactly what I wanted to say, but much more eliquently.
"The greatest problem about these "friendgirl/ friendboy" situations isn't so much the lack inititive or leading someone on as much as building emotional intimacy with someone of the opposite sex who you are not in the process (dating/courting) of considering as a possible future spouse."
Does this mean that I consider my guy friends possible future spouses? This is one thing that kind of irritates me about how boundless portrays this issue. They seem to define relationships based on "who is involved" rather than the actual "content" of the relationship itself. If a guy is friends with a guy, then its ok and normal. If a guy is friends with a girl in the EXACT SAME WAY, he's "using her for emotional intimacy without commiting". I don't think that judegment is right or fair.
72. Stephanie said the following at 7:24 PM on Jan 12:
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Ashley (the original flavor) #2, #29 and elsewhere: I wish we were friends. You're hilarious. And for the most part - dead on. Well done.
73. BC said the following at 8:52 PM on Jan 12:
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I simply want to echo the points made by Tom (55), jcs (57), and Corwin (64).
I find that most girls are unwilling to date a guy that is not either extremely handsome or a preexistent friendguy. This is the key point that Joshua misses -- guys may be the initiators, but because girls are the final deciders, their opinion drives how guys approach them.
Rather than the article's condemnation of men, I think we all would be better served by diffusing the importance of the first few dates. If guys and girls could both be more laid back about the first few dates, we would have a lot fewer instances of this friendguy/friendgirl problem.
74. Paul said the following at 9:19 PM on Jan 12:
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kmmc (#68), I'm sorry to hear that. I'll be praying that with God's help, and the help of some godly people walking alongside, your journey would lead deeper into God and eventually into a place where you can one day open up again. :-)
75. Mgobluegirl said the following at 10:01 PM on Jan 12:
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This is a great article. It tactfully asks guys to step up and be men. I have found myself in the friendgirl zone too many times. It hurts, but yes, we women do know deep inside that these types of friendlationships (also textlationships too!) are going nowhere. Somehow we continue to justify our continued sense of hope for a real future with these men. I often wish the men that are not into me would begin respecting my time and attention so that I could save my heart for the right one.
76. Jo said the following at 6:25 AM on Jan 13:
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It seems to me there are 3 scenarios being described here...
1) One person is knowingly leading another person on. That, I think we can all agree, is not cool. If you're deliberately using another person as a boy/girlfriend substitute 'til someone better comes along, that's not okay.
2) A genuine friendship exists, but person A has feelings for the person B. I've been on both sides of that, and I don't have a problem with it. In my opinion it's up to person A to ask for clarity if they need it, and B has no responsibility to tell them how it is unless they ask (especially as they may not even realise). Since these sorts of friendships happen a lot, I think it's best not to do date-type things with anyone of the opposite sex who you only see as a friend - don't pay for their dinner, don't go together to things fancy enough to dress up for, don't spend every weekend together. And it's best to be aware of what's going on - for example if one person is making all the effort to hang out, and the other person is just happily going along with it - that's not going to end well. But it's still not simply person B's fault when that happens! It's very easy to be drawn into a closer friendship than you were planning on without ever meaning to mislead the other person. I've seen it with two friends of mine, and it wasn't pretty.
3) A genuine friendship exists, and both people have some interest in taking it further but for whatever reason aren't sure yet or don't feel it's the right time... A few people have talked about that, and basically it's dating, but by not calling it that we avoid all the scary pressure that church culture has put on that word. Sometimes it leads to a relationship, sometimes it doesn't. Either way it should not go on for several months as a limbo "more than friends but not quite anything else" state like mine did! I would still say, don't be doing relationshippy stuff together until you're actually ready to call it what it is. And don't act like your relationship is going somewhere unless you're pretty sure it actually is. And don't make the mistake of thinking that just so long as you never technically say you're more than friends, it's all fine and no one will get hurt.
This is all wisdom stuff really. Don't deliberately lead anyone on. Check yourself regularly to make sure you're not accidentally leading anyone on. If you're worried you might be, talk to them or adjust your behaviour accordingly. Don't allow anyone to lead you on, and don't lead yourself on. If you're not sure how someone feels about you, ask them. And above all, don't expect to be able to go through life without ever getting hurt or hurting anyone else. If one friendship goes wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to change your whole approach to friendship. You live and learn, and hopefully you'll handle it better next time.
77. A.M.C. said the following at 10:02 AM on Jan 13:
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Re: kmmc (#68)
Just out of curiosity... Have you brought up the issue of the man you've mentioned in your post to the leaders of your church? I'm asking because, as much as I hate to say this, my immediate instinct upon hearing this story is that "such manipulation is bad enough to warrant being rebuked by an older man in the church" (and possibly even church discipline if he's a repeat offender).
Now, I know that this is harsh. But I wouldn't consider the punishment "cruel and unusual" because Christians be held to a higher standard. (Of course, this issue has to be handled delicately to allow room for grace. After all, it is often said that sin is "fulfilling a legitimate desire in an illegitimate way"; it would be more helpful in the long run if someone could teach this man how to deal with loneliness in a healthier manner and thus address the root of the problem.)
78. Kelly-1 said the following at 11:51 AM on Jan 13:
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68. kmmc - my heart aches for you. Thank you for sharing your story. You illustrated just why I have a hard time believing a man if he compliments me because like you, I've been given false compliments in the past.
"I can't trust what a guy says or does." I hear you, sister. And this is a very tough thing to let go of or move past. I'm still working on it. (Anyone got any tips?)
79. Natalie said the following at 12:09 PM on Jan 13:
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Wow. This article made me cry. I was a friendgirl to a boy for a long time. He finally broke up with me to pursue another girl, she wasn't interested, and he's been coming back to me again...because of course we're just friends.
I have to say my friendboy didn't start out that way. He was intentional, or so I thought, when we met. He took me on date one week after meeting. He was the nicest guy I'd ever meet. He took me to an expensive restaurant, went to my favorite coffee shop that I had mentioned in passing, and even to the movies. It was a wonderful first date and sparked a close friendship. A friendship where we spent almost everyday together, and hours on the phone when apart. He'd text me daily, call me nicknames, comment on my appearance and send me love song lyrics! HIS friends made comments about him liking me, and that he was a slow mover. In the end I his buddy and all my patience just got me a broken heart.
Its a sad and hard. But its made me more determined than ever to be careful. And this article was wonderful! I wish every christian guy would read this and live by it.
And for now I will continue to pray for a man who will commit to me, and that the words of his mouth, the mediation of his heart will be acceptable to the Lord and that he will treat me as he ought.
80. kmmc said the following at 12:24 PM on Jan 13:
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In response to A.M.C:
I had talked to my pastor before the DTR. My pastor told me to do the DTR And that if the guy likes me, we can just start dating. If he doesn't like me romantically, then he should go see the pastor because has no business telling me he loves me and that I am his standard of beauty if he is not interested in pursuing me. When I did the DTR and he told me he was dating someone else, I just closed up. I didn't call him out on his behavior. I didn't tell my pastor because I was embarrassed. I didn't want him to see the pastor and then have him, his girlfriend and possibly his friends see me as a petty girl who can't handle rejection. So, I didn't say anything. It was just many months later that I confronted him and he told me why he treated me that way. By then, it was kinda too late
81. A said the following at 12:34 PM on Jan 13:
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I've been in the friendgirl situation twice in my life and both times hurt because I thought they were headed somewhere more.
The first guy called me/texted me just about every day to talk, called me at home, would make excuses for us to go out regularly one-on-one, wrote me a song, etc. I was the only girl he did this with and he was the only guy I spent this time with.
After about two years of this, I admitted that I liked him and he confessed he'd been dating someone else for the past few weeks - and yes, he was still calling/texting me/spending time with me every day during his relationship. He said he'd liked me too, but hadn't been *sure enough* that I still liked him.
He and this girl have since broken up.
Fast forward a few years to another guy. We would go out for lunch/dinner pretty regularly during the week, even though we'd see each other at church on the weekend. We'd spend a lot of one-on-one time talking about our hurts, dreams, etc. He made a lot of excuses to hang out alone. When we got to the point of carpooling, he would always drop off other people first so that we could 'spend time together' even though it wasn't the most convenient route. He came to a party at my place and stayed long after everyone else had gone - he hung out with my parents and I and then after they went to bed, we were talking until 4 in the morning. He asked me what I was looking for in a guy and then mused over whether he had those characteristics. We talked about our hopes for future families, children, etc.
It's not like I hadn't carpooled with other guys before or even had one-on-one conversations with church brothers. But the level of emotional intimacy here was very different.
Yet when we did the DTR (initiated by me), he said he only thought of me as a *best friend* and that maybe in another situation, things might be different.
Believe it or not, it is only AFTER these two situations that I first learned about the value of guarding one's heart and the danger of intimate quasi-relationships with the opposite sex. I wish I had read this article a long time ago (hey, I wish I had found out about Boundless a long time ago!)
I feel like the girl everybody wants to be friends with, but can't be thought of as a serious girlfriend.
I don't look like Quasimodo, I'm a good listener, I'm involved with (and enjoy!) church activities, I have a stable job, I'm not in financial debt, I can cook/bake...
I don't know what I'm missing yet, but hopefully Mr Right will come along someday. And I will be a lot more careful about guarding my heart in friendships which aren't going anywhere in the meantime.
82. Ashley (the original flavor) said the following at 1:02 PM on Jan 13:
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kmmc: Don't let one poor example of a man tarnish the rest of the good ones for you.
Don't disbelieve in your own worth and beauty because some fool abused them.
You are worthy of love -- don't let a poor excuse for a man rob you of that joy. He's not worth it.
83. Ashley (the original flavor) said the following at 1:02 PM on Jan 13:
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oh, and Stephanie, Several of the regular posters here have friended me on facebook :) You are welcome to do the same!
84. A.M.C. said the following at 2:05 PM on Jan 13:
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Re: kmmc (#80)
Thanks for the clarification. I still see a potential red flag here, though:
Based on your wording in post #68, I'm getting the impression that the man in question was rationalizing by trying to justify his past actions (as opposed to apologizing/repenting and promising to change his behavior in the future, etc.) Now, my assumption could be entirely wrong. But if it's correct, then my concern is that history could repeat itself unless someone calls out this man and tells him plainly that what he has done to you is unacceptable.
Given this possibility, I would like to encourage you to consider notifying church leadership anyway even though many months have already passed. The point here isn't to try to salvage the "pseudo-relationship"; rather, it's for the sake of protecting your other sisters in Christ in from being defrauded by him (even if he never intended to harm anyone's feelings) if he still attends the same church...
85. Sarah P. said the following at 2:08 PM on Jan 13:
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Kelly-1 wrote (#66):
2. Ashley (the original flavor) said:
"I can't say that I don't see something happening between us, but I wouldn't wait for me if I were you."
Hahahahahaha, I had pretty much the exact same thing said to me once. And (silly me) I took that as a sign that there was hope for the future if not now!
Me too, girls, me too. Almost exactly the same thing, and I thought the same as Kelly. And it took me years to recover after the emotional pit I dug myself into. Not going there again. I expect the men around me to be better than that, and I refuse to let them act like weaselly scalawags to me in such a fashion.
This DOES limit my friendships to the men who are able to behave well, but I have indeed met some of them.
86. Corwin said the following at 2:59 PM on Jan 13:
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Tom (55) wrote:
"It's amazing how easy it is to get people to come on what is effectively a date by just being vague and ambiguous!"
and KMMC (68) wrote:
"I can't trust what a guy says or does."
Reading these posts reminds of something I read that talked about us all paying for the sins of our gender when we date, which is sadly so true.
When young guys don't have much success being up-front with girls, they either become cynical and stop pursing girls altogether or start looking for less-than-direct ways to pursue women around them. Then down the road, good women have to deal with men who lack confidence or are not up-front and intentional.
Same for girls who are lied to or manipulated by guys. They put up walls to protect themselves and then when a good man comes along later, he has to try break through her icy guards and re-earn a trust that he hasn't done anything to lose in the first place.
We treat the other gender the way we've been conditioned to treat them over time...and in many ways our genders are reaping what they collectively sowed. It’s hard to change that...
87. Kelly-1 said the following at 3:13 PM on Jan 13:
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71. Alex C. said:
"Does this mean that I consider my guy friends possible future spouses?"
I do. If we're both single and get on well and both love Jesus, then why not?! I always keep an open mind.
88. Tom said the following at 7:06 PM on Jan 13:
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Corwin (86), to some extent you're right. But I want to bring some clarity ;) to your phrase "men who ... are not up-front and intentional". It's possible to not be up front initially, but also act intentionally in a relationship.
PS, just as we start talking about how it can be good to have less clarity in relationships for at least a short while in many circumstances, Boundless decides to recycle their "How to Get Clarity in Your Relationships" article as a headline. lolz :D
89. Corwin said the following at 10:14 PM on Jan 13:
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@Tom (88):
Haha - Coincidence? I think not!! ;)
Yea, sorry I wasn't trying to imply that "hanging out" for a little while before clarifying your intentions is the same as lingering forever in a non-relationship relationship.
I do find it weird though to hear some girls saying that they wish guys would just ask them on an actual date when they are interested, while other girls (or sometimes even the same girls) will then shoot down almost every guy who asks them on a date but will respond positively to ambiguous "hang-out" requests.
Same thing for the guys who manipulate and use girls all through their 20s and then complain in their 30s that all the women around them are jaded man-haters.
Anyways, I digress...
90. Tara said the following at 10:14 AM on Jan 14:
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I wish there was a code word for a first date that could let everyone know and agree that "no, I'm not asking you to marry me but I am attracted to you and want to see if a romantic relationship is possible". All this hemming and hawing stinks.
Looking back, I still wish my husband had referred to our first date as a date. I was left guessing. He paid for my movie ticket but I had to buy my own drinks. He didn't try to touch me in any way which is actually very gentlemanly but left me open to question. Fortunately, I only had to wait for our third 'date' to have the DTR (initiated by him) and each date came one week apart.
Dating should not be this confusing. I'm married and the whole thing still baffles me...
91. BDB said the following at 3:22 PM on Jan 14:
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A couple things to keep in mind:
>>When she calls you, you hang out with her if it's convenient. <<
This is an argument in favor of women not initiating. For women who've found themselves in this situation, were you taking the initiative to plan the events and get togethers? Perhaps not taking the initiative is an effective way to avoid getting into these kinds of situations.
American culture in particular teaches women to take initiative in all areas of their life, from education to career. It's been my observation that lots of American women want to take initiative in their relationships, too. But then they get upset when the guy who went along with their initiative "won't commit." Well, duh, you took the initiative, he's just along for he ride.
I also think that some of these situations occur precisely because the Evangelical church tends to preach on sexual purity but not approaching marriage. They are not the same thing. You can easily have a situation where a guy thinks he is doing what he is supposed to be doing (treating her like a sister), and she interprets that is "not really into her" and so goes and dates someone else...such as a non-Christian who has never heard of the idea of treating any woman like their sister. Except their actual sister.
So, you have non-Christian women regularly taking initiative and inviting Christian men to do stuff. The Christian women are (sometimes) taught to not take initiative. So, in comparison, it appears to the guy that non-Christians are interested but Christians aren't.
It's the mirror image of the Christian women who complain that non-Christian men ask them out but Christian men
treat them like a sisterdon't have the guts to man up and ask them out.You'd never ask out your sister.
But it would be OK to hang out with your sister in a group, right?
92. BDB said the following at 3:30 PM on Jan 14:
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Elle (#43) makes a passionate argument that men shouldnt ask out women they work with.
What this means for other women who work with her is that they should never expect to meet anyone at work, either, because the men will be warned to never take initiative at work.
And if they've invited Elle, and she's chewed them out, they won't make that mistake again.
What happens when people bring that same attitude into the church? (e.g. Church should be a safe place which means that men should never approach a woman for fear of making her uncomfortable.) What this attitude does is train men to not take initiative.
93. BDB said the following at 3:36 PM on Jan 14:
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Though I should also state that I've seen company sexual harassment training that makes it explicit that you can invite someone to lunch.
Once.
They they go into a discussion of "repeated unwanted attention."
In other words, if she says no once, Company Policy suggests that you can never ask again. But you won't be fired or reprimanded for asking once.
So, to manage the career risk,
94. DNP said the following at 12:40 AM on Jan 15:
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61.RCC said:
”The advice given is only to deal with these buddy relationships once they have begun not how to not to end up in them in the first place.
What would the gentlemen here advise women do so they don't end up in these situations?”
As a guy, I keep a boundary between friendship and dating. I never ask my female friends out on dates or what possibly could be construed as a date. I do my best to avoid sending out what could be interpreted as romantic signals.
As for ladies I am interested in, I always ask them out pretty soon (within a few weeks) after I meet them.
A) If they say yes; we date.
B) If they say “no”; I gracefully move on.
C) If they say “they have to think about it”: I gracefully move on.
D) If they say they prefer to be “friends-first”…. I gracefully move on. Over time we may become friends…but I never go in to a pseudo-hope mode and thus avoid getting in to a “friendlationship.” Now, if she starts showing unwanted interest towards me…I really start putting the brakes on contacting her. I HATE ambiguous friendlationships and avoid them like Ebola!
95. MicahT said the following at 4:53 PM on Jan 15:
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90. Tara
"Looking back, I still wish my husband had referred to our first date as a date. I was left guessing."
Not only did this lead to a second date, but ultimately to marriage... to YOU, and you're still confused?
96. Tara said the following at 10:26 AM on Jan 16:
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Yeah...but it wasn't fun waiting and I have no advice to give my single friends who ask for it.
97. a sassy sister said the following at 11:50 AM on Jan 16:
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sigh....
Frankly, I wish that many of us would get honest with ourselves, God, and others about this issue. I sometimes think that part of the problem is exacerbated by several factors:
a) You have many girls who have taught/trained to believe that marriage and family is everything and the means to becoming the model of Biblical womanhood, so some of them settle for just about anything, just so they can say they're getting married.
b) Women and men are being taught to look at dating/courtship/singleness/marriage from a very polarized view, especially in the context of what maturity and adulthood is in the Christian community. Depending on how transparent the community is (read: Pastors using the pulpit as a means of passive-aggressive confrontation instead of direct, one on one confrontation) in regards to marriage, dating, and singleness, you'll have either many socially awkward single Christians who hyperventilate when speaking to a woman of the opposite sex or a girl who goes into wedding overdrive when a guy asks her out.
c)Unrealistic expectations and shallow criteria used to discerning marriageability and overall maturity.(ex: just because a woman is physically fit now doesn't mean she'll keep herself up for you--or that she'll be able to once she has several of your children. Another ex: taking the current state of a Christian married man and using those qualities as prerequisite criteria for all potential suitors)
I think what gets to me out of all of this is the fact that many of us KNOW a man or woman who is either leading someone on or is being led on. What is even more telling is the fact that I've seen so many men/women balk at actually confronting their so-called friends on their behavior---especially when they know that the same behavior is what's keeping them from a healthy relationship. It boggles my mind, because the resulting consequences leaves a greater "mess" for the next person to deal with. And that just stinks---for everyone.
98. clair said the following at 12:03 PM on Jan 16:
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Tara,
a DTR on the 3rd date? Defining that yall were going on dates? or defining that you were a couple?
Just wondering. I've never defined that early, and maybe I should be.
99. jayme said the following at 1:22 PM on Jan 16:
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My now-husband did a great thing by calling our first date - a date. Phew! Clarity received.
What I wish he would've done is given me official girlfriend status earlier. He treated me as such. He wasn't dating anyone else. But he didn't ask "Are we committed?"/"Are you my girlfriend?"/ until 3 months in...that was a little long for my peace of mind. It worked out, but as a female, I would've preferred earlier.
To those protesting "You should've asked him instead of waiting", my answer:
-Yes, I could have.
-But I didn't feel that I HAD to since his actions were clear and he had made other comments along the way that he dates to see if he can marry a woman or not (ie: it was just for fun)
-I didn't want to pressure his timeline.
-He kept calling a date, a date.
-He never touched me, so I wasn't presented with a guy trying to put the moves on without making me his girlfriend.
-He was public with others that we were dating.
If he wouldn't have brought it up, eventually I would've asked, but would be a NICE TO HAVE (not a MUST) if he would've clarified that sooner.
100. Johnny said the following at 7:22 PM on Jan 16:
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One thing to remember about being a friendgirl: other guys will see you and think that you have a boyfriend and will not try to get to know you believing that you are "taken".
Remember, there is an opportunity cost to everything, and the opportunity costs of being a friendgirl are too high.