Dating/Courtship is Not Pre-Engagement

Dating/Courtship is Not Pre-Engagement
by Ted Slater on 07/15/2010 at 12:46 PM

If you think that dating or courting is pre-engagement, and that you've got to know this'll be your marriage partner before you go on your first date, then you're really putting too much pressure on yourself. That kind of attitude will turn dating into an agonizing burden, and may paralyze you from even moving forward in your relationships.

A few days ago we received the following e-mail (which the author has given me permission to publish here):

I got a call recently from a man from my church. We've gone on a mission trip together with our church and served in our church together for the past two years. We are in the same ministry group.

He called me to talk in private, which I took as a sign that he is going to ask me out. I got hints that he talked to our pastor about it already before making that call to me from what my pastor mentioned that he had office hours with him last week.

However, I am nervous and anxious about this. We get along and work well together. However, I'm stuck wondering if he's the one that God has purposed me to be a helper to. How do I know? How do I know if this will be the right guy? We are both very committed to our church and I don't want to risk any awkwardness in our relationship if it doesn't fare out OK. Is this a fear of commitment or failure of courtship?

I have other guys that I am open to going out with if they ask, but they haven't. I admit that this man is someone that I can respect, yet I'm just scared. How else do I seek God's guidance in this matter? I'm not sure what would be the right thing to do.

Am I too idealistic in wanting to marry the first person that I go out with and not making the wrong choice? He's a few years older than me and we are both committed to serving God in our church and reaching out to non-believers and ministering to those who are already believers.

My reply:

I appreciate your concerns. You're not the first to ask such questions, or the first godly woman to want to do this the right way. I commend you on your caution.

That said, let me answer this question directly: "Am I too idealistic in wanting to marry the first person that I go out with and not making the wrong choice?"

Yes, you're too idealistic. Indeed, such a perspective is misguided. Dating is not pre-engagement. You are not committing to this man by agreeing to date/court him. You are simply agreeing to get to know each other better with the intention of discerning the Lord's will about whether you should marry or not. Indeed, if you go into this dating/courting relationship thinking he must be "the one," then you may be setting yourself up for a rough time -- a dating relationship that's under so much pressure that it's just no fun, or committing to a guy from the start only later to discern that he's not the man for you.

As long as you're not physically involved, and as long as you don't get too emotionally entangled, you should be able to exit the relationship (if that's what you together deem is the Lord's will) without tremendous "awkwardness." And if the relationship works out, and you together come to the conclusion that it's the Lord's will for the two of you to marry, then how awesome is that? :-)

Take a look at this blog I wrote some time ago: "Dating Is Just Fine."

Don't date casually, but don't take it so seriously. You are not agreeing to marry him right now.

What I said to this young woman I say to you: Don't fret so much about only dating people who you're certain you'll marry. Of course, don't date someone who you'd never consider marrying. But it's senseless to wait to go on that first date until you know for certain that he or she is "the one." The very purpose of dating is to determine God's perspective on whether he or she is "the one."

I've said it before. I'll say it again: Now, lighten up and go on a date, would ya?

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Comments

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1. Elizabeth said the following at 2:06 PM on Jul 15:

Thank you! I'm sure I needed to hear this.

I do want to ask this though: Recently a young man wanted to get to know me better, so I agreed, but tried to be very, very cautious. He was dishonest about his past, in a effort not to lose me, and I believed him (though fortunately the Lord protected me through my dad, who could see things I couldn't.) The only bad thing that happened was me getting my feelings hurt and feeling extremely discouraged that all this happened despite my prayers and caution.

But now I'm fearful that the next time I agree to get to know a guy better, that this situation might happen again. How can a Christian girl be discerning of guys claiming to be Christian and saying all the "right" things...but aren't? I hope that makes sense.

2. Adam W.B. said the following at 2:58 PM on Jul 15:

I too needed to hear this. We're told so many times that who we date should be someone we can marry that it can become the person we will marry. It does put a lot on a guy when thinking that way and has been the source of my anxiety and hesitation to ask a young woman out.

3. Emily said the following at 2:59 PM on Jul 15:

I understand where you are coming from, but I must say that from a man's viewpoint only. Women tend to get emotionally attached to people much quicker and easier than men. If a man shows interest, they heart and mind automatically jumps forward to marriage. If marriage is not the end result, then our hearts are broken.

While we don't need to sit at home just waiting, we should also be very careful with our heart and only "date" someone who we would consider for a husband. If there is anything about him that you don't think is a quality you want in your husband then you shouldn't date him.

While dating isn't wrong, it should be saved for someone you would seriously consider marrying. That is what I feel like the lady who wrote this email meant.

4. Nick said the following at 3:20 PM on Jul 15:

THANK YOU!!! I think so often in the past Boundless has tended to hammer hard on the guys who are just stringing along women with no intention of going further, that they give the impression that for a man to do anything short of mentioning marriage by the third date at the latest would be just taking advantage of her company, confusing her, and potentially misleading her. (See "Not Your Buddy," etc.) Though I completely agree that an exclusive relationship should only be with an eye towards marriage, I think sometimes these articles forget that, "Dating is not pre-engagement." Thanks, Ted!

5. Rebekah in SoCal said the following at 3:37 PM on Jul 15:

Thanks Ted. I'm definately one who needs a reminder to just lighten up and just experience the relationship.

6. David said the following at 3:56 PM on Jul 15:

It's good advice, but too little too late.

I've given up on Christian women because of their attitude with this issue (among many others). Is it shocking that you find a higher percentage of level-headed non-Christian women than Christian women?

7. Jo said the following at 4:29 PM on Jul 15:

Ted. AMEN. That is all.

8. EKB said the following at 5:22 PM on Jul 15:

I blame the "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"-type courtship model for this girl's line of thinking. What is the point of dating or courtship if you are already sure you want to get married?

9. Kellie said the following at 5:28 PM on Jul 15:

This is some of the best dating advice I've seen Boundless offer.

10. Ted Slater said the following at 5:43 PM on Jul 15:

EKB (#8) -- to be fair, IKDG never advocated such a thing.

11. Thomas said the following at 6:11 PM on Jul 15:

I'm pretty sure I needed to read this! Enough said.

12. ruru said the following at 6:26 PM on Jul 15:

David(# 6)

I want to say up front, my intention in writing this isn't to judge you or scold you but to ask you to consider something. Are you a Christian man who has given up that his sisters in the Lord will mature past this or that the Lord will change them? Brother where is your faith in the work of the Lord? If Jesus is the center of our life,shouldn't we be willing to for ladies wait and the guys look for a fellow believer who we can share the most important thing with us?

General Comments:
I would argue that some don't take dating/ courting serious enough. If you consider that dating is discerning whether the Lord is leading two people towards marriage then marriage needs to be considered. In considering that this relationship you, the guy, are asking for may lead to marriage some of us ladies frankly are afraid. Just like it takes you gentlemen faith and courage to initiate, responding requires similar quantities of each.

I know by now I have written a novel but I have one last question: Would you, gentlemen, be upset if a the woman asked to date/court asked for a few days to think/pray before giving you an answer? If, yes, why?

13. Craig M. said the following at 6:59 PM on Jul 15:

How do people not know this? When did the church start producing so many emotional cripples?

14. meganblaire said the following at 7:02 PM on Jul 15:

@David {#6}

Now that's not quite fair. There are a lot of very level headed Christian women out there, who love to live by this attitude, and would be willing to go on at least one date with a Christian man who crosses her path {spoken from experience!}

Just because one hasn't crossed YOUR path, doesn't mean they don't exist. Perhaps you need to broaden your path a bit {I say this to myself especially}. Or perhaps it is your bitter, negative attitude that is deterring some very decent Christian women from wanting to approach you, or who turn you down when they are approached. I don't know you personally, obviously, but if I can feel your attitude in the written words on a computer screen, surely they are coming across in person, also.

Just some food for thought.

15. a sassy sister said the following at 9:43 PM on Jul 15:

@David:

There are Christian women out there that don't buy into that attitude, but many are told that by standing up to the crowd and making a decision to go on a date are treated as if they're "rejecting wise counsel," and behaving like a loose woman.

@Elizabeth:
If you make a commitment to the Lord and the Lord that this brother/sister will be better off in the Lord REGARDLESS of what happens, it will greatly help in your interactions with the opposite sex. Furthermore, there are guys that are Christians, but that's no guarantee that they are for you, or that you won't be hurt. As much as I'd like my potential hubby to show that he's been God-tagged, that's not how it works. I would encourage you to recognize that your emotions and truth are two different things, and that emotion should be a response to truth.

The big reason why marriage is so pressured filled for Christians: Because we have not effectively championed the truth in action and community as Christians that our meaning, identity, acceptance, worth, and security has been and always will be in Him. Does God use marriage as a means to communicate this? Absolutely! But somehow, we forgot to effectively teach that one can date/court and enjoy life--they're not mutually exclusive.

16. MizattA said the following at 9:51 PM on Jul 15:

Joshua Harris Kinda does and kinda doesn't actually Ted. If you continue on to read Boy meets Girl and connect it with what he says he clearly states that he believes dating should not about anything but seriousness and working towards being married. He in IKDG says that he thinks dating shouldn't focus on having fun when getting to know each other and that the fun date nights are to be and should be saved for after marriage, that the point of dating should be just spending time with each other with the intent on only having conversations and doing activities that prepare the two for getting married before they could even really get to deeply know each other.

He has a list of 8 dates in Boy Meets Girl that while he didn't write the date idea he highly supports them and yet they clearly are the kind of things you would do as a couple after you have been engaged not something that would be smart to do on a normal, pre-engagement date where people have not been able to know each other really. Examples are something like sitting down to dinner with a close couple from church for the night and talking to them about all their struggles and all the good and stuff like that. As well as a date night where you and your girlfriend/boyfriend should babysit for someone from your churches kids. The problem is 1. I dont know any sane married couple whom would let a boyfriend and girlfriend babysit alone together for obvious reasons, and 2. even if there were not those problems, early on in the relationship when people are trying to focus on getting to know each other, putting the argument of ideas on parenting and children into play can be extremely harmful and cause people to want to break up, more than help strengthen their relationship early on.

While I firmly believe that dating should be a step between friendship and marriage and their should be an intent to see if it will lead to marriage I do not full heartily agree with Joshua Harris approach of total seriousness in dating and firmly believe is also being in environments where you can have fun together.

17. Evan said the following at 11:19 PM on Jul 15:

Ted, your comment is correct. What I can't figure out, though, is why so many people - myself included for a number of years - took it that way.

18. MT said the following at 5:13 AM on Jul 16:

Thank you immensely for posting this. Boundless, in general, has had it out for Christian guys for some time (I too have read "Not Your Buddy"). As for women who think of marriage when a guy asks her out -- they are setting themselves up for a world of hurt and unhappiness by not enjoying dating for what it is.

19. Autumn said the following at 5:47 AM on Jul 16:

My pastor spoke about this same thing last week. One Sunday a month, he takes a break from whatever series he is in and he speaks on a topic relating to marriage. This week, it was basically a challenge to young people to stop acting like teenagers, grow up, and get married. He also challenged the parents to send their children out of the house as adults not teenagers. He also spoke on not delaying marriage, which is so encouraging because I'm 20 years old and my wedding is in 3 weeks :)

20. Mrs. H said the following at 6:27 AM on Jul 16:

Ted (10) - I agree, I don't know that they purposely advocated that. But, I think that's the message a lot of young women internalized.

Your advice is great. :-)

21. Ruth said the following at 6:28 AM on Jul 16:

This is great advice..
The dating described in 'I kissed dating goodbye' is an unintentional dating as opposed to intentional dating (which some call courtship). By the way 'Boy meets Girl' (Joshua Harris second book) speaks of a successful courtship as one that determines whether a couple should or should not marry; NOT that a successful courtship always leads to marriage.
I think the point is to date someone you think you could marry/marriage material but dating/courting doesn't automatically mean you will/should marry.

22. Naomi said the following at 6:58 AM on Jul 16:

Usually, the motivation of such idealistic thoughts is PRIDE. Why do I care that the first person I dated is the person I marry? Because I want people to look at my relationship and validate me, and thus, validate my spiritual discernment, wisdom and spirituality in general. I want people to put me up as an example.

I'm not advocating the practice of dating many people. Or even more than a couple people. But the purpose of dating is to figure out who you're going to marry. If you go into every dating scenario paranoid that it won't work out, that is recipe for dysfunction.

Unfortunately, the Church tends to look upon marriage as a badge of honor. As if getting married = reward for good spiritual conduct. Maybe we Christians never actually say that, but it is something that single people feel pressured about... when we're not married, we wonder if people disregard our opinions because we haven't yet attained the 'blissful state of marriage.'

This kind of pressure only intensifies our paranoia about having "successful" relationships. Because everyone knows that a failed relationship means I'm a failure as a person (note: intentional sarcasm).

Maybe we should re-define "successful relationship." Maybe it should NOT mean 'a relationship that ends in marriage.' But rather 'a relationship in which God is glorified, and the end result is understanding the will of God--whether it is marriage or allowing each of us to go our separate ways in peace.'

Food for thought anyway. :)

23. EM said the following at 7:27 AM on Jul 16:

good advice. you can't know what (who) you don't know.

24. Ro said the following at 7:34 AM on Jul 16:

I disagree. I think a man should be friends with the person until he knows their character well enough to pursue her. Why is it necessary to date the person or try on being married as such to know whether you want to marry them or not.

Women do get their emotions involved in a relationship, and break ups are painful. So they are best avoided.

25. Alindi O. said the following at 7:54 AM on Jul 16:

Thanks Ted. You just made somethings more clear for me in your advice.

26. Sarah P. said the following at 7:56 AM on Jul 16:

Yep. I went on two dates with someone recently, and it was a breath of fresh air compared to all the college angst. I didn't know him at all, so we ate dinner and talked, and I decided that it probably wouldn't work out long-term. So we parted amicably, so far as I know.

What is extremely damaging to us all is the notion that it is somehow extra holy or virtuous never to date. That if we manage to hold out, God will work magic of some kind, and we will have a fairy princess story. A handsome soldier in Afghanistan will incidentally see our picture, fall desperately in love, and come seeking our hand in marriage.

I laugh about those ideas, but wistfully. I think God has reserved the greatest proportion of magic and sparkles for Heaven, and we're not there yet.

27. anony girl said the following at 9:32 AM on Jul 16:

This is good advice. I had to learn this when I started dating my boyfriend--in the beginning, I was consumed with anxiety, partially because I kept thinking about the possible future (or possible end). What if I don't fall in love with him? What if we get married and don't have enough money? What if ... and then, of course, the What if we break up? I needed to be reminded to just enjoy the moment, and enjoy each season of the relationship. (and it's going very well :)

28. Tami said the following at 11:02 AM on Jul 16:

It Depends.

If I already know the guy fairly well, I would hope that he had a bit more seriousness of intent than, say, a guy I had only seen a few times at church, or someone I met through friends.

It's really hard to "just" go on a date with someone who's already in your circle of friends.

29. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:21 AM on Jul 16:

I think Ted's answer is exactly right in one key way: suggesting that the letter-writer not get physically or (too) emotionally involved! That is so incredibly important, because an awful lot of the fear of dating (IMO) comes from the fear of what “dating” will entail.

We don't know what “going out with” means to the letter-writer, but it's perfectly possible that it means an awful lot of physical involvement; her original unease about saying “yes” to the guy may well stem from her knowledge of what she'll be expected to go along with if she does so. That's the only thing that prevents me from saying “Amen“ to Ted's answer: I don't know what social structures exist around the letter-writer, and encouraging her to “go out with” some guy may implicitly be encouraging her down a highly destructive path. “Going out” with someone does often mean “going to bed with” in this day and age . . .

The other piece I would expect to see is some advice about involving parents or other relatives in this situation. Again, we don't know the situation, so it may not be possible, but surely she could ask her father/mother/uncle/aunt/whoever for some advice, and they would know far more about both her and the general situation around her.

Ted may know more about the circumstances, and so his answer is probably spot-on (as I would expect). As long as the girl follows the “don't get too involved” advice, then she won't go far wrong.

30. Nicole said the following at 11:21 AM on Jul 16:

Getting your heart broken happens to everyone at some point in their life. Its a part of growing up. Its a learning experience, and as much as it hurts getting over it, in a way it is worth it ,because if you find out more about yourself and how to do things differently next time. It can help you become a better person. So, I don't particulary think poeple should shy away from letting someone nice get close to you even with all the risks.

31. Micah said the following at 11:34 AM on Jul 16:

Re:12
Ok, I'll bite. In a general sense, yes I'd be a little upset, but only because I've had some really bad experiences with this. I can see where a courtship proposal out of the blue would require some time to think/pray about it, but I've had too many coffee-type date answers that took 2+ weeks (usually with a no :( ).

I soooo wish articles like this were around in my church(es) 10-15 years ago. Reading these every so often is like a breath of fresh air.

32. Zusanne said the following at 11:39 AM on Jul 16:

David (#6) I think it's because more is at stake for Christian women. Most women who are believers are looking for a life-long mate; many women who aren't, aren't. We live in a society that finds casual sex and almost immediate cohabitation to be acceptible.

But, yeah, dreaming of wedding flowers and dresses and cakes while on the first date--too much pressure. On both parts of the couple.

33. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:50 AM on Jul 16:

Craig M. (13): Good question about “emotional cripples”! I'm not sure we can conclude that the letter-writer is one (see previous comment), but I've certainly met a huge number of emotionally crippled Christian girls/women and I don't think it's just me – obviously David has met a few :(

I think some of the crippling happens when girls are told “no sex (or kissing, or anything!) outside of marriage” and at the same time told “you shouldn't expect to get married until you've finished high school, gone to college, got a degree, and started a career”. Combining those two gives you a decade of trying really hard to avoid any sort of entanglement with boys (despite the biological desires being really strong), and then suddenly at 23 or so being expected to turn 180 degrees and get married as soon as possible.

That's not the whole story, of course, but it does go a long way to explaining why non-Christians seem to be so much more natural when it comes to this sort of thing: they have other problems, of course, but do at least avoid the above scenario.

34. SaraL said the following at 12:09 PM on Jul 16:

I totally thought I was going to disagree with your advice here Ted when I read the title of the blog. However, when I read the actual article, I completely agree! Yes, you should only date someone who has marriage potential, but you shouldn't plan on them being your spouse. In most cases, it takes some time to decide whether or not you are compatible enough to marry.

Anyways, Thumbs Up!

35. Kellie said the following at 12:46 PM on Jul 16:

#24: I really don't see how this is healthy (and I do say this as someone who married the only man I ever dated-but I never had expectations of marriage (I did have hopes) going into the relationship).

Any relationship worth having is going to involve some amount of risk. There is no way to protect yourself completely from hurt, but hopefully it will be worth it in the end.

36. Trevor Dolby said the following at 1:11 PM on Jul 16:

ruru (12): As a man, I would not be upset at all. Nor would I be upset if she wanted to talk to her parents first, or have me talk to them. Any of those would be perfectly acceptable responses.

It would be less acceptable if she then failed to come back with an answer; that is, if she was merely trying to make an excuse to get rid of me and never really intended to give me an answer at all . . .

37. David said the following at 1:16 PM on Jul 16:

Craig M. #13:

The emotional crippling came when girls obsessed with the ideal man (Old Spice Man) become Christians, and see God as the provider for their desires. If only the girls can hold out for a little longer and pray just a little harder, they are sure they can get the muscled hunk riding a white stallion.

Who cares about other guys? Christian girls want the Christian Old Spice Man.

Even non-Christian girls aren't that vain in practice.

Ruru #12: yes, I've given up on the single Christian girls. Christian girls here can thank their sisters for blazing the trail. That's one fewer Christian guy among the already small pool of Christian guys that girls will have an opportunity to pass over.

When Christian girls feel that they have to marry a nonchristian guy because no decent christian men are available, and then they get dumped on and mistreated in marriage and divorced, they'll know who to blame.

38. HoosierBeck said the following at 1:45 PM on Jul 16:

Thank you for this article, Ted!

One of the things that impressed me about my husband was that he clearly asked me to dinner...We had known each other, but not that much at that point. He wanted to get to know me; he was intentional, but there was none of that "should we date, or are we just friends" (Which is usually a sort of dating, but not calling it that because we're not ready to "court").
I believe that balance is so important in so many things. While we're not called, as Christian singles, to date any random person at any time, I think we are also not called to deeply ponder every dinner/concert/event as if we must know the end of the book before we've even started reading the first few chapters!

39. James said the following at 2:02 PM on Jul 16:

I used to put this kind of pressure on myself...that if I say the wrong word over coffee I've irreversibly altered the course of my life and the universe forever! Lol, that's too much. Now I simply look at it as getting coffee (or a drink) when meeting up with someone, nothing more.

40. EKB said the following at 5:33 PM on Jul 16:

Ted,

Fair point; I should have been more clear. You are right that the book doesn't directly say that. What I intended to communicate is that many people in the broader courtship movement, which was made more mainstream by IKDG, tend to promote this type of thinking.

41. Craig M. said the following at 12:47 AM on Jul 17:

You sound pretty bitter, David, but I don't actually think you're wrong. Too many people in America have been Osteened. They think that because they're trying to be faithful Christians they're going to automatically get everything their little hearts desire. It doesn't work that way, it's never worked that way, it didn't work that way for the saints and the martyrs, and it's not going to work that way for you. If you're an average-looking woman, you're not nabbing the Old Spice guy. The Old Spice guy! Hilarious!

42. Dave said the following at 12:48 AM on Jul 17:

Re: David (#6, 37)
[For now... I'll still with my usual boundless name, even though that could get a bit confusing given the similarity]

I've given up on Christian women because of their attitude with this issue (among many others). Is it shocking that you find a higher percentage of level-headed non-Christian women than Christian women?

I think that Zusanne (#32) pretty much nailed it (and of course the same argument applies equally in the opposite direction.

The other issue is that things probably depend a lot on the circle that you're involved with. e.g. I know quite a few Muslims, and, at least amongst those I know, many seem to have kept up the whole arranged marriage thing and regard dating as at least a bit vulgar.

Ruru #12: yes, I've given up on the single Christian girls. Christian girls here can thank their sisters for blazing the trail. That's one fewer Christian guy among the already small pool of Christian guys that girls will have an opportunity to pass over.
When Christian girls feel that they have to marry a nonchristian guy because no decent christian men are available, and then they get dumped on and mistreated in marriage and divorced, they'll know who to blame.

I guess the question then is what are you planning to do about it? Your legitimate options seem to be (a) wait, or (b) live a celibate life. The alternative doesn't seem legitimate.

43. ruru said the following at 9:17 AM on Jul 17:

#37 Again I am not trying to sold you. Please consider this thoughts from a sister. You have basically taken your experience with Christian women and assume that they are all like that. Again are you willing to wait, pray and look for someone who shares a love and devotion to Jesus or does that no longer matter to you? Consider that maybe the type of Christian woman you have sought is part of the problem. Someone whose identity is hidden with Christ and is seeking the things above not the things below is a world of difference from the behavior and attitudes of many Christian women today. A change in attitude will do wonders to someone's outlook on people. I implore you to not give up just yet.

# 31 and 36 ~ I am sorry that those women gave you the run around. Please don't get discouraged.

44. ruru said the following at 9:18 AM on Jul 17:

*scold... sorry ;)

45. BDB said the following at 4:03 PM on Jul 17:

Zusanne (#32) wrote:

>>We live in a society that finds casual sex and almost immediate cohabitation to be acceptible.<<

To be fair, not every non-Christian woman thinks this way.

In David's defense, it does seem to be true that non-Christian women accept lunch/coffee invitations much more readily - on the spot for example. Alas, it also means realizing mid-lunch that they're really not a Christian at all.

46. ruru said the following at 12:40 AM on Jul 18:

#37 What makes you think that that is the ideal for Christian Women? You keep using the term "Girls" to describe the females you are referring to, maybe Girls(immature and selfish females) do have that idea but women(mature Christ-like females) realize that that is unrealistic and down right unfair to our brothers. We may have character qualities that are important (loves the Lord, fruits of the spirit in his life, etc.) but as far as the rest, maturity would say that how good looking a guy is, is not an indicator of how he will handle difficult situations. I would also challenge you to consider how you have treated the women around you who may not have been size six or had the clearest complextion but were kindhearted Godly women. I only ask that because I have to ask myself the same thing. I can get hurt and upset about being overlooked or rejected but am I guilty of that as well? On behalf of my Christian sisters please forgive us for our unrealistic expectations that we sometimes have for men.

47. MT said the following at 5:57 AM on Jul 19:

Reading some more comments, I think this whole dating pressure problem arises from a widespread desire for superficial perfection. If we date only one person and get married to him or her, we can put that right next to the 2.5 kids, the spacious house, and the picket fence. What's worse is that I don't think anyone really desires to be perfect in dating, but is just caving in to do what's expected -- instead of learning what God's teaching us in each situation.

48. Philippa said the following at 8:42 AM on Jul 19:

Trevor Roberts (33):

Good question about “emotional cripples”! I'm not sure we can conclude that the letter-writer is one (see previous comment), but I've certainly met a huge number of emotionally crippled Christian girls/women and I don't think it's just me – obviously David has met a few :(

Really? Crippled in what way, Trevor?

I've met a lot of people who are 'emotionally crippled', both Christians and non-Christians. Indeed, I'd say that being 'emtionally crippled' applies to most of the human race, LOL. But I've not met MORE Christians who are emotionally crippled than non-Christians.

David (37):

I may have problems with my singleness, but blaming other women, or men, is not one of them. We get nowhere with any kind of 'blame game', IMO.

Besides, I know some non-Christians who are very happily married or partnered, and I know many Christians who are, and equally I know some Christians and non-Christians that aren't.

The Christian community has more women than men. Fact. This creates no small problem for Christian women. Fact. This is why I am still single, IMO. It's not because I don't desire marriage.

I thought Ted's reply to the admirable but overly idealistic (and unrealistic) young woman in the original post was excellent, by the way. :)

49. m. said the following at 10:07 AM on Jul 19:

What does one do when their parents have mandated that they are to only date the person they'll marry?

50. Marisa said the following at 12:53 PM on Jul 19:

I find it funny how it always comes down to, "Non-Christian women/men are easier to deal with because of *blank*".

Girls, we experience and relate the "fact" that non-Christian men are more willing to approach us. Guys, I hear from you that non-Christian women are more responsive to being approached.

Anybody ever think that all of this graciousness from unbelievers is just a trick of the enemy to keep us alienated from each other? To frustrate and lure us off somewhere we don't need to be? I don't necessarily buy that unbelievers have a better handle on this stuff than we do(I know too many to believe otherwise)--I think the enemy makes their overtures and responses that much more attractive and "natural" to us for a purpose. A malicious one.

Maybe that's oversimplifying things, but it makes it easier for me to ignore attention from ungodly men and reserve my affections/hopes for a guy that loves the Lord as much as I do...even if he is somewhat reticent to ask me out.

51. nikki said the following at 1:12 PM on Jul 19:

Just wanted to add that nowhere are we assured a life free of "awkwardness." SO many people refer to it as though it were a sin, or the end of their social lives. Yes, sometimes there will be awkwardness, like after a breakup. It's just part of living, and definitely should NOT deter anyone from normal, reasonable relationships.

52. Craig M. said the following at 5:08 PM on Jul 19:

#49 -- Tell your parents you're an adult and they should mind their own business.

53. Laura said the following at 5:56 PM on Jul 19:

Yeah, what Marisa said.

Just because you get along with someone does not negate the fact that your world views may be diametrically opposed to one another. Problems may crop up further down the road, but they are already there.

54. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:46 AM on Jul 20:

Philippa (48): The context for what I wrote was Craig M.'s comment (13) in which he asked 'When did the church start producing so many emotional cripples?' in response to the original article about a girl feeling 'nervous and anxious' about the possibility of being asked out by a guy she knows. There is a much more general category of emotional crippling, of course, which may well be more prevalent outside the church.

The particular Christian variety to which I was referring tends towards being very much as described in the original post: extreme nervousness about being pursued by men. Girls outside the church tend assume that that's a normal part of life (which it is) but most Christians seem more interested in education, careers, money, travel, indeed almost anything that doesn't involve marriage.

One of the reasons for this, I suspect, is a self-selection process that happens at a fairly young age: the ones who stick around in the church after 16 or so tend to have certain personality types. The others (the ones who view relationships between men and women as being normal and expected) simply go off and live life without the church, so the ones who remain don't have that view. I could be totally wrong about this, of course, but the explanation does fit most of the facts.

As always, your mileage may vary :) as you almost certainly know different people than I do.

55. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:20 AM on Jul 20:

Marisa (50): I have thought that :) and the trick of the enemy often seems to involve corrupting that which is good and twisting it into something that does harm to believers.

Of course, the unbelievers have lower expectations as far as the duration of relationships: there's less risk if you don't expect a marriage to take place. For this reason alone, most unbelievers will have less of a problem saying 'yes' when asked out.

The 'corrupting something good' aspect is illustrated very well in the recent blog entry entitled “Bad Christian Dating Advice” - Amanda Deer explains far better than I could how it's possible to spend so much of your time doing worthy things that you miss possible suitors, and yet believe you're focusing on God and doing His will. It's well worth reading.

56. Jon W. said the following at 1:15 PM on Jul 20:

Interesting article. While I agree with the sentiment that dating/courtship (D/C) before engagement does not hold the same weight as actually being engaged (formally asking for her hand [me being a guy and all] and receiving parental approval), I believe that the D/C process should be headed towards marriage, or at least that marriage be discussed early on.

I've been in a D/C relationship for the past two years and spent two years prior getting to know the girl before having the nerve to ask her to pursue a deeper friendship with me. Through that time, I learned about her character, her interests and her proclivities. But obviously, there are certain things that you cannot know by merely being a "friend" to someone. And so, I decided that I wanted to get to know more about her and hence, pursued a relationship with her, and am learning so much more about her even now.

But at the outset, I made it clear to her that my intention was marriage, though I was open to the fact that breaking up before marriage is still a possibility. I did this for a number of reasons:

First, I believe that the end goal of a D/C relationship is engagement/marriage, whether or not marriage actually materializes is a separate issue. Second, I wanted to be explicitly clear as to where I believed the direction of the relationship ought to be heading (so as to avoid any possible confusion). Third, I believe that during the D/C relationship up until marriage, there will be many issues that we will face and have conflicts about. By telling her that my intent is marriage, I was effectively telling her that I would be willing to work through any and every problem that arose before marriage. This is because I believe that if you cannot work out issues before marriage, getting married won't help (it is not like getting married is a magic pill that will make your conflicts disappear). In other words, not deluding myself into thinking that she is "the one", but trying to work together with her through our differences and problems to show her that I am "the one" for her.

Granted, if before marriage we arrived at an impasse in which neither side can compromise or lend grace to, then this incompatibility may indicate that God does not want for us to be married to each other.

...whoa...looks like I wrote a bit much...but basically what I wanted to say is that I believe that marriage is a legit and necessary topic to discuss during a D/C relationship. While you shouldn't worry about "only dating people who you're certain you'll marry" (because certainty in this domain is a difficult thing), you should definitely take things seriously and try to work things out together. And so in a sense, the D/C is a prelude to the engagement/marriage relationship.

And while the person who wrote the letter may have been too idealistic (I don't know her situation), I don't think that it is too idealistic of an expectation to marry the first person you date so long as you two are committed to work things out together.

"Love is much more than the flutter of the heart. It is a question of the will; and if you will to love someone, you can." -paraphrase from Ravi Zacharias

57. Cindy said the following at 3:07 PM on Jul 20:

This girl may have been too idealistic. But I'm wondering what are the situations that would make her think this certain way? Is the man much older than her? (more than 5 years?) Are they both very involved in ministry that it may cause problems in the future?

It seems from her letter that she has a pastor and godly people in her life to guide her. Since the guy did ask the pastor before mentioning anything to her.

She said there's other guys that she is open to going out with if they ask. Is she afraid of losing the chance with the other guys if she goes out with the one that did ask?

What are your opinions on this? What if this is a perfectly godly man that she is open to going out with but she is afraid of missing "better options". What do you think she should do at this point? Wait or to go out and see how this fares out?

58. Mike said the following at 6:17 PM on Jul 20:

You know, this is an interesting discussion, especially in light of all the content Boundless puts out in favor intentionality. But I have a question:

Where's the balance?

What happens when you're dating a girl who not only wants a DTR, but many DTRs ... and after only two months of chatting online? Where 3 out of 5 conversations involves wanting to know "how long will it be before you know for sure?" or "when do you think we'll have some idea of whether this is headed for marriage?" or the like?

Where do you draw the line between "intentionally seeking discernment regarding the potential for marriage" and "nutcase obsession"?

59. Diana said the following at 2:07 AM on Jul 21:

thanks for the advice..really needed to hear this.i need to open up to daing rather than sit and wait to only date the one becoz how will i know if i dont get out there

60. Katrece said the following at 2:49 PM on Jul 21:

MizattA, I love it. Especially your opinion regarding the babysitting idea. :)
I've read both of those books and made similar conclusions.

61. Tiffany said the following at 11:10 PM on Jul 28:

Another aspect of this that has come up in my circle of friends recently is that sometimes, breaking up is the right thing to do. I think that because many Christians have this idea that dating=pre-engagement, then breaking up is like a divorce, and divorce is wrong. I think if a couple approaches a relationship carefully, remembers to put up boundaries in the proper places, then breaking up can be the appropriate (albeit not painless) action to take when they realize they aren't a good match for each other.

62. Ashley said the following at 1:19 PM on Jul 29:

Hehe. Mike, your post made me laugh, because I seriously wonder if I've been misconstrued as that girl in the past.

What happens when you're dating a girl who not only wants a DTR, but many DTRs ... and after only two months of chatting online? Where 3 out of 5 conversations involves wanting to know "how long will it be before you know for sure?" or "when do you think we'll have some idea of whether this is headed for marriage?" or the like?
Where do you draw the line between "intentionally seeking discernment regarding the potential for marriage" and "nutcase obsession"?

The biggest problem I've found with online dating -- and the reason I don't do it anymore -- is because it cuts through all of the more simple "being togetherness" of the early stages of a relationship. Every interaction is vectored towards an emotional connection. There is no distraction from some other person trying to balance a bar stool on his chin at the table next to you in the restaurant, there is no goofy moment when something random happens that enables you to just enjoy being around each other, there's no "subaru spotting" or counting yellow cars when you're driving down the road, there is no sitting on the couch just enjoying "being there" with the other person. Everything is focused like a laser beam on the other person's life experience, your life experience and the similarities and differences between the two. It opens an emotional connection which is more than likely MUCH deeper for the woman far earlier than it should over the course of the friendship.

The other key difference is geography. It will COST a girl something to up and move her life somewhere halfway across the country where she doesn't know anyone. It's much more difficult to step back, take a couple deep breaths, and lighten up when you realize that the conversation that you're having could rock the course of your entire life to it's foundations. So you start trying to count the cost. If things work out will you have to change jobs? Career fields? Will you, practically speaking, have to wait longer than you're willing to to get married and be together? What if you decide this is headed for marriage and then some sweet young thing decides that your 'boyfriend' is the one for her and she's pretty and charming and right there?

I think I've said it before elsewhere too, There's a bizarre notion that "online" dating means exclusivity. I cannot imagine being in an extended online arrangement, that at least for the first few months or so didn't have some kind of "if something comes up locally..." escape clause. But it also lends itself to a lot of insecurity and the type of people that date online... are often already insecure.

That being said, I think that some guys start things that they are unwilling to try to finish. They meet a girl online and she is sweet and clever and funny. They like the same things, They hit it off. He likes her and so he decides he wants to see where things go, especially if there are no other options locally... and it's not UNTIL two months in that he realizes... oh SNAPS, she's five, six, seven hours AWAY and this is going to be HARD WORK!

When you have one person who is freaking out that they're going to have to work harder than they anticipated and you have another person that is freaking out because moving ahead is going to substantially change their long term life plans and neither of them are communicating -- BOTH of them are going to walk away feeling like the other person was a nutjob. He is going to feel like she is a control freak and was pushing things WAY too hard and SHE is going to feel like he's a jerk who was leading her on and too scared to finish what he started.

63. Mike said the following at 4:22 PM on Jul 29:

Okay, Ashley ... no fair channeling me over the Internet!

:-)

But seriously, I think you make a lot of good points. Let me comment on each one:

1) No casual "get to know you" before the "are we a good match" stage. Oh, boy, isn't that true! Heck, we do that right up front when we browse the profiles. Let's see, yeah, she's cute ... but she listed her politics as "liberal" ... she's in my denomination, which is great ... but she's got a dog (yuck) ... and thus the "tallying" starts. And you've never even met! AAARRRRGGGHHH!

Honestly, I think this is where the "intentionality" message of Boundless can get a little confusing or maybe just misconstrued. If the purpose of dating is evaluating compatibility for marriage, why wouldn't you start right up front with the "29 dimensions of compatibility"? (Other than the fact that it places a HUGE amount of pressure on an infant relationship. Other than that.) :-)

2) Geography. Hoo boy - yep, big problem. My ex-wife was living about 2.5 hours' drive away when we met (over the Internet, I might add). She relocated to my town ... and resented it the entire time we were married. After we divorced, she immediately moved back to her original town. So whoever is thinking about relocating (it's not necessarily the woman) ... be really sure you'll be happy in the new city. Because that can cause a lot of friction. Not to mention the difficulties during the dating time; because you can't see this person every day, or pop by just to say "hi" or to have dinner during the week, you're likely going to magnify the "hide all my bad stuff" that typically goes along with dating.

3) Exclusivity. Under normal circumstances, the DTR marks the beginning of the exclusivity in the relationship (at least I think so). However, in my case, I've had too many bad experiences with trying to date multiple people, so I typically only date one person at a time. Hence, this isn't typically an issue for me. YMMV.

4) Insecurity. There's a lot of truth to the notion that the computer screen helps to shield people who are insecure meeting in public. There was a column in the Crosswalk Singles newsletter a while back about a person who was a self-described "extreme introvert", saying he was very uncomfortable getting together in groups to meet potential mates, but that seemed to be the focus of all the dating advice from Christian ministries. (Including Boundless, I might add.) Their advice to him did not, interestingly enough, include online dating. It did include going to group gatherings with a "wingman" - a trusted friend who could help shield him from the "deer in a spotlight" feeling.

I will confess ... I'm an INTJ on the Meyers-Briggs, so I sympathize with this fellow. I'm the one you find at a party with a Diet Coke in his hand and his back to the corner, hoping nobody notices him. (Strange but true, if you've ever read any of my over-the-top online rants.) So the computer gives a level of security that meeting in person in a group just can't provide. Does everyone who dates online feel the same way? I can't say ... but I suspect lots of people who feel that way turn to online dating.

5) Harder than dating close by. No question; long-distance dating (which is not necessarily the same thing as online dating; I once met a woman here in my home town online) does put more of a strain on things. (I remember Colonel Potter on M*A*S*H: "They say absence makes the heart grow fonder, but I think that's a load of cow cookies.") And yes, I think some people will get cold feet once they're a couple of months in and the reality of the difficulty sinks in - and it may be worse for the men, who, at least in theory, should bear the brunt of the travel burden. (And staying in a hotel is NOT CHEAP; I took a trip to visit the lady I'm currently seeing and a trip of one week cost me nearly $1,400!) So I think you're most likely right: Some may give up on the long-distance thing when they get hit between the eyes with the difficulty and the expense, and decide the view's not worth the climb.

There are some additional angles, too:

Communication in e-mail is not always as good as in person. You can't judge body language, facial expression, and the like, because, well, you can't see the person's face. So it's very easy to get into misunderstandings. Phone bills get expensive. (Mine jumped almost fourfold last month!)

Great. Now I'm depressed. Thanks for that. ;-)

Anyway, just for the record, this lady has backed off on her insecure questions. She's accepted my basic ground rule: We are dating to see if we're compatible for marriage, with no specified timetable. The only thing she does now is occasionally ask, "We're still together, right?"

Better, I guess ... so I can tough it out for now. :-)

Thanks for writing. God bless.

Mike

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