Opposite-Sex Friends Beyond Marriage

Opposite-Sex Friends Beyond Marriage
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 03/19/2010 at 5:50 PM

A few weeks ago, a friend and I wrote an article called "Friends Beyond Marriage." It was about making the transition in friendship when one of you gets married. A male reader sent us the following e-mail:

I recently read your "Friends beyond Marriage" article. As a guy, I found useful things in the article. The funny thing was that since I RSS to Boundless Articles, I only see the title. I actually thought you would be talking about opposite-gender relationships beyond marriage. I was wondering if you (or the male staff writers) had any good insights into opposite-gender relationships beyond marriage.

I'm six months into marriage, so I can speak to how my opposite-gender friendships have changed. There is a basic biblical principle that guides this issue whether you're single or married. Timothy says: "Treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity" (1 Timothy 5:1-2).

If you are sticking to Timothy's advice in your pre-marriage opposite-gender friendships, it should be a seamless transition when one of you marries. But the details of the adjusted friendships may depend on the specific married couple's preferences. One couple I know agreed to not correspond by e-mail (outside of work) with any opposite-sex friends without the spouse reading them. This may sound extreme, but you have to respect the steps a couple is taking to protect their marriage.

If you are single and your female friend has married, your primary responsibility is to respect her new husband's authority over their relationship. They have become one, and any actions on your part that threaten their relationship are out of place. Jon Acuff offers this advice:

I don't know. I don't have the answer on this one. Just the idea that things get a little awkward when you get married and have to figure out friendships with the opposite sex. But of the two camps, "You're such a Puritan, loosen up" and "Better safe than sorry, can a dude drive me to the airport," I know which one I want to fall into. Because no one ever wakes up and says, "Today I'm having an affair." Affairs are slow burn decisions, with a wick a mile long made of little steps and little compromises.

For those navigating opposite-gender friendships with married friends, I offer two principles: 1) Have a friendship that is above reproach -- if others think it seems fishy (or if the new spouse is not OK with it), it probably is; 2) Honor the couple above the friendship. This may mean modifying the level of friendship you have had in the past for the good of your friend's marital relationship. On a personal note, I have appreciated how Kevin has welcomed in my male friends as "our" friends. I don't do things with male friends alone, but instead my husband and I extend friendship to them together. Plus, if Kevin even has a hint of uneasiness with a particular friendship, I respect his wishes on the matter.

Again, if you have maintained appropriate friendships with the opposite sex pre-marriage, there should not be a big change after one of you ties the knot. At the same time, understanding that things will need to change (no more one-on-one coffee meetings) will keep your friendship on the up-and-up.

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1. Trisha said the following at 6:53 PM on Mar 19:

I think it's all a trust issue. I mean if you were friends with the person of the opposite gender for a long time....said when you are just dating somesome would it be fair for that person you are dating telling you to ditch a friendship you had for a long timw with someone (say you and that opposite gender person were friends since you were 5)? If it was a newer opposite gender friendship you would hope the person you are dating or married to could trust you....like I said it's all a trust issue. Introduce that opposite gender friend to your boyfriend, girlfried, or spouse and they them get to know each other too (that is what I would do). I don't think I would be willing to give up a friendship with anyone because when I was growing up I had no friends.

2. Cat said the following at 9:03 PM on Mar 19:

Oh boy, this is a loaded topic for me. I broke an engagement because of an unhealthy friendship between my fiance and another young married woman he knew. The relationship was physically innocent but I felt betrayed when he would go to her for comfort after we got into an argument. Moreover I felt their level of emotional intimacy was way overboard. I approached him and asked him to dial it down. He told me I was over reacting. She told me I was being paranoid.

I later shared specific instances with a close friend and she told me I was indeed not paranoid. As further proof against my paranoia my boyfriend frequently hangs out with other girls for lunch and stuff and it doesn't bother me. Mainly because I know when we argue or disagree he'll talk it out with a guy. He's not sharing my or our secrets with any of his female friends. And he never meets alone with anyone I haven't met or don't trust.

So platonic, opposite sex friendships after marriage? Sure. But if a member of the opposite sex is your closest friend ever you may want to consider why you aren't dating or marrying them.

3. Ally said the following at 9:35 PM on Mar 19:

I disagree with Trisha #1. I don't see it as a "trust issue" so much as an issue of wisdom and how we can best protect and honor a covenant that a married couple takes before the Lord. As a result of our sinful nature, we have to set boundaries that may not seem "fair" or easy but that help us protect ourselves and our spouse (and others) from potential harm. I think our sinful choices often result from sliding down a slippery slope of less than wise choices (that may not in themselves be sinful), therefore in the context of marriage it seems most wise to me to not pursue friendships with males unless it's my husband and me together. Of course, it's all easier said than done when friendships have existed for years and other issues, but it helps to approach it with the realization that it's not just about trust but also about how to best honor the commitment you've made to the Lord and each other and realizing that you're not above any sin, even adultery.

4. BDB said the following at 11:38 PM on Mar 19:

I suspect that this varies widely by the individual maturity of the people involved.

Consider a situation where the male friend is the one who tells the woman that she ought to take another guy seriously and marry him. Such a person might adjust his behavior long before marriage to show that he's not going to compete against someone he thinks is a better match for his friend. That might make it easier for them to all get along after marriage.

C.S. Lewis addresses this issue in the Friendship chapter of The Four Loves. One of the things about his wife was that she was also an excellent author, and was intellectually able to keep up with Lewis' literary friends. If the new couple and the old friends share a passion for something like missions, they may be pleased to have found fellow travelers on the journey.

This may not be common, however.

5. SirTurtle said the following at 11:39 PM on Mar 19:

Platonic close opposite-sex friendships are not stable. They will lead to something.

Too close while outside of marriage means that the relationship possibility continually hangs over the "platonic" opposite sex’s pair’s heads.

Too close while inside marriage and attention that should be directed towards the spouse gets directed outside of the marriage relationship. Essentially putting cracks in the union between the two.
The question is a question of personal boundaries each marriage will have to consider.

On a related note. I will not date girls with lots of "guy friends" it’s a red flag. Girls with lots of "just guy friends" have in every single case that I have EVER come across demonstrated attention whorish behavior and the need to validate themselves with the attention of multiple men. Every time the girl discovered that by being flirtatious in a "platonic" way that she could garner lots of male attention.
The proffered excuse by almost all of these girls is that "other girls are so

catty/backstabbing/untrustworthy/emotional sensitive/or whatever.
In most cases I later learned that the girls with "lots of just guy friends" tended to have a habit of coming in-between other girls and their boyfriends/interests.
That being said, It seems best that girls be close friends only with girls and guys close friends only with guys. Massive group fun-fests with both sexes are fine, smaller mixed sex groups are fine. The problem comes from the blurred lines of close sharing one on one time with a member of the opposite sex, it should be avoided.

Not saying you shouldn’t try to form close friendships before dating someone. If you girls want to call that friendship then fine by me. most guys will play along, it makes it safer for girls and guys when you get burned.

But you won't find me halfway getting to know a girl that way. All in or all out. Blurred lines are bad. Friendships always need clear boundaries. This only becomes more apparent in marriage. If you have those boundaries before marriage stuff is less confusing after.

6. Paula said the following at 3:04 AM on Mar 20:

I like what Cat (#2) said:"If a member of the opposite sex is your closest friend ever you may want to consider why you aren't dating or marrying them."

I have wondered how a bride can be happy with her groom choosing a "Best Girl" who is not family, for example.

In my experience, guys can think a friendship is platonic while their female friends have already day-dreamed about the wedding. I think we need to practice much caution in establishing one-on-one friendships with the opposite sex.Pu

7. Matt C. said the following at 7:22 AM on Mar 20:

I think reducing the issue to any single aspect, such as trust (as per Trisha @ 1) oversimplifies it.

Trust cannot be what it all comes down to because nobody is absolutely trustworthy. As the original post noted, nobody makes a single decision to have an affair--an affair is the pinnacle of a pile of poor decisions which, taken individually, have little to do with adultery.

At the same time, trust is necessary in any relationship. No marriage where suspicion lurks around every corner is a happy one. So how do these two realities work together?

The best way to reconcile the reality of the deceptive human heart without compromising the trust necessary in any relationship is voluntary propriety. Being above reproach in this way means following rules that are not moral laws. For example, it is not a sin to spend time alone/in seclusion with a member of the opposite sex. Nevertheless, it still should not be done because it leads to temptation and ultimately to sin. Propriety does mean that you won't be able to squeeze the absolute most amount of pleasures/friendships/fun/etc out of life. However, the security of one's marriage should be more valuable than that.

Nobody should ever trust themselves to be immune to temptation, and therefore, nobody should ever ask their spouse to rely solely on their own immunity & impeccable trustworthiness.

8. Brynn said the following at 7:38 AM on Mar 20:

I was "one of those girls that has a lot of guy friends". I am a socially awkward, shy person and I like "guy" things like sports. Attention whore, I am definitely NOT. Attention makes me uncomfortable. I can just relate to guys better. I had a few very close girl friends in my lifetime, but that was it.

That being said, when I got married I made an active effort to disengage all of my guy friends and also to make girl friends. I think it's inappropriate to have a close relationship with a person of the opposite sex when you are married. I wouldn't want my husband sharing his deepest feelings or a lot of his spare time with some other girl. I want to treat him the way that I want him to treat me. Some of my guy friends I may be friends with on Facebook, but I honestly do not make an effort to keep in touch with them other than maybe commenting on their Facebook wall from time to time.

My marriage is worth the sacrifice of a few male friends. I believe they all understand my position. It has been good for me to spend time with other women, and I have learned how to better do that. I still have a lot to learn though!

9. Leigh said the following at 7:42 AM on Mar 20:

One of my very best friends is male. Our parents were friends growing up, our mothers were pregnant together. We were born 6 weeks apart. We share so many memories. But when he got married I would someitmes see the look on his wifes face when he would hug me picking me up off the ground and spinning around. Now.. he and I know that it is nothing more than the way a brother and sister would hug. We could never and have never liked each other like that. When I noticed the way his wife would look I started to think about how I would feel. Out of respect for her I always talk to/email her if I want to hear how they are. I want her to know that I am her friend and that I am no threat what so ever. Im ok with going through her to find out about them. I still love him very much, but I want their marrige to be strong. I would never want to be a problem between them. She is an amazing girl and Im glad my best friend has her.

Leigh

10. Katie said the following at 10:30 AM on Mar 20:

As Casting Crowns sing, "Its a slow fade when you give yourself away." Close friendships with the opposite sex, leads to emotional intimacy. Whether single or married, emotional intimacy with the opposite sex is not wise. I do not believe it is treating your brothers/sisters with "absolute purity"(1 Timothy 5:2). For me and I think most women, emotional intimacy invokes feelings of oneness that should only be reserved for our husbands.

Matt C. (#7) has a good point. No one should trust themselves to be immune to temptation. We are called live above reproach.

"They have become one, and any actions on your part that threaten their relationship are out of place." (from the original post).

11. Joel V said the following at 11:17 AM on Mar 20:

The title of the article Friends Beyond Marriage had me thinking along these lines too. So I appreciate that this is being addressed as well.

This issue seems to me to be one of those areas where what has become socially acceptable is somewhat at odds with the wisdom of God's Word. We are taught to stay away from the very appearance of evil. Like Matt C #7 was saying, adultery starts with small steps. Spending time with someone of the opposite sex builds an emotional connection that can lead to inappropriate intimacy that should only be shared with a husband or wife.

12. Lauren P. said the following at 11:30 AM on Mar 20:

In regard to the comments about friendships with guys, I have never had a friendship with a guy. I am barely even an acquaintance of many guys. I have never desired a male friend. I have found enough friendship in all my girl friends. I sometimes wonder though, if it was wrong of me to not have any guy friends. People tell me that I won't be able to relate to guys as well because I'm not friends or talk with often, any guys. I hope that my lack of guy friends will not detract from my marriability and ability to one day communicate and relate to my future husband.

13. Timothy Stone said the following at 4:12 PM on Mar 20:

I distress over this. I have some good friends who are married/engaged of both genders. My problem is that some married people seem to be quite cliquish. Couples hang out with couples. Now, I can understand why, but it irks me.

I can take being downgraded in the friendship below my friend's husband or wife, because that is right and proper, and is as it should be. What I have a hard time with is being downgraded to below every other couple out there. I've been wary of entering into anything approaching friendship with new people, because I don't want to become fast friends with someone who is going to jettison me in favor of other couples once he or she gets engaged/married. I have had people tell me to try to make more friends, and my response is a simple one. Not easy or likely. I'm tried of having my heart stomped on.

I can state unequivocally that when or if I do get married, I will not ever act cliquish. I HATE cliquishness.

God bless all.

14. Marc said the following at 5:32 PM on Mar 20:

Leigh (# 9):

I think you're fooling yourself. You say he picks you up and spins you around like a brother would a sister? I'm afraid you are wrong. No blood brother is that affectionate all the time to his blood sister. Also, I think you know this. You’re just using this “brother/sister” example so you don’t feel as guilty about it.

I do not blame your friend's wife whatsoever for not liking the fact that her husband hugs another girl before spinning her in the air. That is not healthy on any level. You really need to clear the air with your friend's wife and apologize, for I can tell you right now that that is not appropriate whatsoever.

I would also encourage you to look inside your heart and see if you might have some non-platonic affection for your married friend. I know that having a guy friend (especially a married guy-friend) who is unattainable can excite someone, like pouring gasoline on a smoldering flame. It may be in the back of your mind (or “deep inside your heart”), but it is still there.

I am not trying to be an armchair psychiatrist. I simply have seen this type of scenario many times before. For the record, the same situation applies if it was a man dealing with a friend who is a married woman.

15. David said the following at 5:46 PM on Mar 20:

For those who think married men shouldn't have friendships with women, do you also think that married men can't have friendships with other men?

After all, spending personal time with a male friend could lead to emotional bonds which would be better formed with the wife, and also it could lead to sexual sin.

Or is there a double-standard when it comes to the gender of friends?

16. k. said the following at 7:44 PM on Mar 20:

Each couple has to figure out their boundaries and ground rules. It's important to both be on the same page.

Lauren P, it will be hard to marry if you're not friends (or even acquainted with) with any men, no? We're all people, but men and women often have different strengths and perspectives. Male AND female friends add to the richness of life.

SirT, it's possible to have male friends without being an "attention whore." My goodness.

17. k. said the following at 8:03 PM on Mar 20:

Marc: [cough cough] Armchair psychiatrist [cough].

18. April C. said the following at 9:28 PM on Mar 20:

Lauren P, #12 - Besides my brothers of course, I never had a male friend until an "intentional" one came along and married me! I was told the same thing as you about not being able to relate, but it WAS...NOT...TRUE.

You only have to relate to one man, your husband, in a special way. You can't "practice" on other guys because no two are alike. And here is what kept me from even wishing I had guy friends - I thought about how I'd feel if my one-day husband had a lot of female friends. It would be horrible!

It really is nice to have fathers, brothers, also uncles, cousins, or grandfathers - there are plenty of men we can legitimately relate to both before and after marriage without it endangering our relationship with our husbands.

So, anyway, don't worry - you are marriable all right. And in my humble opinion, more so than if you were being distracted by male friends. You have a lovely gift to give a husband one day - a heart untainted by even emotional intimacy with those you'll never marry.

19. KJ said the following at 9:39 PM on Mar 20:

I worked at a Christian camp when I was in college and the advice we were given at orientation was "Don't bother cultivating friendships with the opposite sex while you are here. You can't be lifelong friends with someone of the opposite sex; your friendship ends when one of you gets married."

I guess that would solve the problem...and probably miss a lot of blessings too.

20. SirTurtle said the following at 10:35 PM on Mar 20:

@k. “SirT, it's possible to have male friends without being an "attention whore." My goodness.”

=D knew I’d get some girls with those statements. Try not to miss my point. I’m not saying you can’t be friends with guys. I’m giving a warning to my fellow men that if a girl seems flirty and has all male friends and no female ones, exercise caution before dating.

@Lauren “I hope that my lack of guy friends will not detract from my marriability and ability to one day communicate and relate to my future husband.”

It won’t. doesn’t matter how many guy friends you have, the relationship with your husband will be different. I come from the opposite side where as I guy all of my good friends are now male. I can’t make friends with Girls simply because they won’t let me. They either insist on dating me and get angry if I don’t, or they insist I pay them inordinate amounts of attention and throw hissy fits when I don’t. My male friendships are so much more stable thanks to the lack of the whole romance question mark.

I used to be able to have friend girls before I changed. But looking back all of the female friendships I had consisted of me listening to them complain about their lives, simply being a shoulder to cry on. I either ended up trying to initiate a relationship or when I stopped acting as a surrogate boyfriend they stopped treating me as worth their time.
@Leigh: As a husband there is no way I would want to share my wife that much. Just sayin.

@ Brynn “Attention whore, I am definitely NOT. Attention makes me uncomfortable. I can just relate to guys better. I had a few very close girl friends in my lifetime, but that was it.”

Yea I know some of you girls are gonna react to that statement. Just the fact that you get defensive points to something. You quote almost word for word some of the defenses that some of my friends have told me. They love to garner attention and then complain about it. NOT saying your like this. Just saying that the exception is something I have yet to see in my life.

21. Phoebe said the following at 10:56 PM on Mar 20:

There need to be definite boundaries. A friend of mine had a husband who was a student at a Christian university. They had gotten married when she got pregnant, already an uh-oh, but their marriage got worse through a combination of circumstances. Along the way he had a girl "best-friend" who then was out of a job and needed a place to stay. She moved in with the married couple... you can guess what happened.

In this situation there were a lot of other imbalanced priorities, but I'm sure we can all agree that the improper friendship between this man and a girl not his wife was not a good idea and contributed to the downfall of his marriage.

22. BDB said the following at 11:15 PM on Mar 20:

For those who believe that only having friends of the same sex after marriage keeps you safe, consider the recent high-profile affairs that have been in the news. These men met the mistresses when they were out drinking with their buddies.

Regardless of gender, I'm convinced that people will do best with friends who absolutely believe that marriage is for life. Consider some possible alternatives:

- The guy with marriage trouble whose buddies encourage him to get a divorce, pointing out how their kids got over it in six months

- The women whose girlfriends encourage her to put herself and her needs first, e.g. encourage selfishness...

On the other hand, consider the frustrated married person who asks,

"Am I right to feel this way or am I being selfish?"

You want your spouse to have the friend who speaks the truth:

"You're being selfish. Go apologize."

23. Matt said the following at 11:26 PM on Mar 20:

#2 Cat Said

“So platonic, opposite sex friendships after marriage? Sure. But if a member of the opposite sex is your closest friend ever you may want to consider why you aren't dating or marrying them.”

I have 30 female friends, 9 Male friends, Only 2 of those male friendships are close and both are Mentor based Christian men who are very much older than me. 4 of those female friends are the people whom when I need someone to talk to, some advice, anything those girls are my close friends. One of them I meet because she started dating my roommate, she and I both have no feelings for each other whatsoever, Another I meet when she liked another Guy and I liked another girl and neither were working out for us, so we talked about it. She knows all my girl drama(as does girl #1 I know all the guys they have fallen for and past relationship stuff and again vise versa) and they come to me when they need to release on the stupidity of some of my gender. Just because I am male does not mean I cannot give great advice to the opposite sex on how to handle situations with my gender(considering I am male it makes more logical sense for them to go to a male for advice on how to handle a male, then go to a female who not only doesn’t think like we do but processes differently then we do and vise versa.

Maybe the reasons that people can have close opposite sex friendships and not be marriage minded is because they are already in a relationship or their could be personality and belief differences that aren’t strong enough to deter a friendship but they are to deter more than that.

People can be close without growing feelings.

#5 Sirturtle says”

“Platonic close opposite-sex friendships are not stable. They will lead to something.”

Actually not true, sorry. But your whole post is jaded and bias filled based on you viewpoints off of things you think of people not based on reality of most situations. It is very easy to be close friends with someone of the opposite sex without “something happening” if they have another person they are with or if there have beliefs/ideas/goals which conflict with your own. If there aren’t those relationships and conflicts then why didn’t you marry them before your wife/husband?

#15 david says

“For those who think married men shouldn't have friendships with women, do you also think that married men can't have friendships with other men?

After all, spending personal time with a male friend could lead to emotional bonds which would be better formed with the wife, and also it could lead to sexual sin.

Or is there a double-standard when it comes to the gender of friends?”

That is pretty much it. It’s a bad and harmful double standard as well. Men being friends with only men and females only with females hurts you in the long run.

Fun Fact women and men are designed to relate and think differently. Therefore as a man going to a man and asking him how my female wife thinks isn’t going to get me very far because as a man he already thinks and processes like I do and thus is pretty much not gonna give me more than I already had, while if I went to a female friend and asked her, she having been designed more relational/as someone who can communicate more she has the perspective my wife would have and this would be able to tell me where my wife is coming from, what shes thinking and How I should approach her in the situation much better than sticking to your own gender can and vise versa for women and men.

It makes no logical sense for people to only talk about emotional problems, and seek counsel and advice from their own gender, because genders think, process and act alike, thus you don’t really get very far by sticking to the same one.

You grow into a better person, a better communicator, and a better processer when seeking counsel and advice from both genders, not just one. Not only that but it helps with communication in relationships. Why struggle for years upon years to communicate with one another and to understand one another based solely on a poor decision to not seek out counsel on how the other thinks, processes and acts? It doesn't.

The idea that its fine by wives for men to turn to men before turning back to them is ridiculous. Why does someone’s gender matter as long as I go back to my wife to work things out? How does where I get my counsel harm her if it is from someone I have no feelings for.

Do I expect to have a lot of female friends when I am married.. no. I however extremely struggle to connect well with other men and am working on that, but that doesn’t mean I will ever abandon for life the friends I have made. Its taken me 4 months shy of 25 years to get as many friends as I have and I am not going to just drop them like I never cared.

24. Kelly-1 said the following at 12:45 AM on Mar 21:

I miss a male friend of mine - we used to have great chats together after Bible study when he was single.

These days, I never get to see him unless his wife is there. Which is perfectly reasonable and I accept it, but I do miss the one-on-one conversations with him!

25. Daniel B said the following at 12:47 AM on Mar 21:

<< No blood brother is that affectionate all the time to his blood sister >>

Um, except that the girl I'm pursuing right now has that type of relationship with her brother.

That said I still would never be married and give some other woman (except a relative) an air-spin hug. That wouldn't be right.

<< Platonic close opposite-sex friendships are not stable. They will lead to something. >>

That is simply not correct. I've had several close friendships with girls and "something" never happened. In a couple of cases I *wish* you were right and that they had lead to something.

Now, it wouldn't be healthy if those were the ONLY close friendships I have, but that's not what you said.

26. Sami said the following at 1:56 AM on Mar 21:

Marc (#14): I understand where you're coming from, but in defense of Leigh (#9), my brother hugs me & spins me around every time I go home to visit him.

I do not think that a man or woman should have an opposite-gender best friend outside of his/her marriage. Your spouse should be your best friend - your confidant, your listener, your hug, your comfort, everything you need in a human. (Of course, God is the ultimate best friend).

I would never allow my husband to have a close female friend outside of our marriage, and he would not allow me to have a close male friend outside of our marriage unless it is a mutual friend who we both love and trust as just that -- a friend.

27. Jo said the following at 3:02 AM on Mar 21:

k. 16 & 17:
Amen, and LOL at 17. :)

28. Paula said the following at 3:14 AM on Mar 21:

k. (# 17): Leigh can judge Marc's comments for herself. If they apply, then Marc has spoken timely words. If not, I don't blame him for venturing a guess as to possible motives behind Leigh's description of her friendship. Without knowing anything else about her situation, I too would be wary of continuing the friendship in any form. Emotional bonds are terribly hard to break.

Leigh, if you're reading this, please don't take offence at Marc's words. Please weigh his comments prayerfully.

From a wife who knows how fragile marital trust can be and an ex-"we're just friends"-girl....

29. S said the following at 5:39 AM on Mar 21:

I think another thing that should be taken into account is the context of the friendship and how it was formed.

I think friendships made in college are really special. It's when you are figuring out who you are without the watchful eye of your parents. It's when you're trying to figure out what you're going to do with your life and how you're going to do it. My guy friends from that era really do hold a brotherly place in my life.

Another set of guy friends are ones that I have met through work. We see each other every day and therefore know a lot about life outside of work. My job requires traveling for projects, so we also have lots of time to chat in airports and at dinner. These guys are my buddies. We trade war stories and bounce ideas off of each other. I also know all about their wives and kids and they know all about me.

It's about being mature. If you can't handle having friends of the opposite sex, then don't do it. But, I know I would really be missing out if these guys weren't in my life.

30. Nathaniel said the following at 7:45 AM on Mar 21:

David, none of the comments I've read here (or the article) suggest married men shouldn't have friendships with women at all. Instead it's more along the lines of they shouldn't have a close, intimate friendship with a member of the opposite sex.

That, and spending time with your buddies is important for a guy, even after he's married. Whether that time is spent on being an accountability partner or shooting hoops or building a go-cart or whatever. Women (even a wife) can't provide everything – just as a guy can't be everything for his wife.

So, no double standard. :)

31. Matt said the following at 12:49 PM on Mar 21:

#30 Nathanial. again i disagree there is a huge huge double standard when it comes to this issue, for my reasons again read what I said #23.

But yeah it is there.

32. Brynn said the following at 1:39 PM on Mar 21:

SirTurtle: I grew up in a neighborhood with about 6 houses, and no other neighborhoods near it. There was no park nearby, no pool, nothing to do but play in your own yard or in the woods with the other kids in the neighborhood. I have a brother 2 years younger than me. We always were close and hung out, and I spent a lot of time with his friends doing things like climbing trees, exploring the forest, playing soccer and football, etc. Total tomboy over here. I'm glad that didn't scare off my husband as it seems it would scare off you and any other man that heeds your warning! I don't know if it was "right" or "wrong" of me to have male friends as a child or as a teenager or as a young adult. I was also a huge nerd and bookworm - that's just how I was! But as I said, once I was married (and honestly, when I become serious with my now husband) I put away those childish things. Though I am still a bookworm. And maybe a bit of a nerd.

David: You are correct in that a a same-sex friendship COULD lead to sin. I think one thing that is really important is the aspect of faith. I do not maintain close relationships with non-believers; nor does my husband. It's not to say that we are not friends with ANY non-believers; just that they are not our closest friends. If we were to seek advice, you can bet the first and probably only people we would be talking to would be Christians. In any friendship or any human relationship there is the potential for sin; however I certainly believe that potential is diminished a lot when both of the parties are Christians and of the same sex.

Matt: I think it's OK to have opposite sex friends when you are married - to some extent. There is a girl in our small group that I would definitely say is closer to my husband than to me; however, they are never alone together, and if she comes over we all hang out together. When she was having trouble in her marriage, she came to my husband and I as a couple and sought our counsel. I would be completely uncomfortable if the two of them spent any time alone together, or communicated on a regular basis when I was not around (such as via email or something like that). So my response to you in a nutshell is that you don't have to give up your opposite sex friends when you get married, but it may be wise to change the context of them.

33. Grace said the following at 2:08 PM on Mar 21:

Matt (#23). You say: "Therefore as a man going to a man and asking him how my female wife thinks isn’t going to get me very far because as a man he already thinks and processes like I do and thus is pretty much not gonna give me more than I already had"

Perhaps the husband should be talking to his wife about the way she thinks and trying to work through the situation together? You would learn more about each other in the process and this would strengthen the marriage relationship much more than if the husband was getting advice from another woman.

Alternatively, getting advice from a man who has been married much longer than you would be very valuable because he would have learnt a lot about how his wife thinks and also about how the husband could approach the situation effectively.

34. Danielle said the following at 2:42 PM on Mar 21:

#30
AMEN! A wife cannot provide everything her husband needs if life and a husband cannot provide everything his wife needs in life.
That's impossible, and asking too much. They must have other friends-in a responsible, Christ-like way. Otherwise, they will start feeling like the marriage must of not been "right" because something is "missing"...it doesn't completely satisfy them....
Of course not!
Great article.

35. obewan said the following at 3:11 PM on Mar 21:

My opposite sex friends beyond marriage are limited to Facebook. In Facebook I am usually friends with both the husband and wife.

But, gender has had little to do with it in my experience. For the most part my friends of both genders virtually abandoned me after they got married.

Singles and married just don't run in the same circles. That is why I keep harping on the need for over age 30 singles ministries.

I even saw a small group Bible study listing at my church today and most of the groups said "couples only". There was one or two for "singles" but not nearly enough room to accommodate all the singles in the church since group sizes are limited to just 15 people.

36. SirTurtle said the following at 5:00 PM on Mar 21:

MATT: Actually not true, sorry. But your whole post is jaded and bias filled based on you viewpoints off of things you think of people not based on reality of most situations.

SIRTURTLE:I will attempt to untangle this. You’re saying I’m biased. I agree with you, everyone is. I fail to see how this accusation deals with my statements. You’re are saying my statements are not based on reality. I disagree, everyone of my statements comes from real life experience, both mine and others.

SIRTURTLE: It is also important to note that I think platonic friendships between the opposite sex are defiantly possible. Close friendships are not. By close I mean the emotional closeness and sharing that begins to border the intangible line between being a couple and not. Its difficult to define. But opposite sex friendships with lots of one on one time and heartfelt sharing of dreams and desires are not stable outside of Turning into a marriage, in which case it is no longer just friendship.

MATT: It is very easy to be close friends with someone of the opposite sex without “something happening” if they have another person they are with or if there have beliefs/ideas/goals which conflict with your own. If there aren’t those relationships and conflicts then why didn’t you marry them before your wife/husband?

SIRTURTLE: I think you misunderstand my definition of close. By close I mean one on one time and sharing of personal thoughts you would not share with just anyone. You cannot have this kind of friendship with another man’s wife. If you are married you cannot have this kind of friendship with other women besides your wife. It is not a stable friendship.

DAVID: For those who think married men shouldn't have friendships with women, do you also think that married men can't have friendships with other men?

SIRTURTLE: Of course not. Men and women are not the same. Therefore, the same standards should not apply. The case might be different for a man with SSA, which is where you seem to be going with this thought process. For straight men however, there is no danger of becoming attracted to another man. There is a great danger in attention that should belong to his wife alone becomes diverted to another women. As Christians we cannot act recklessly. Paul says that we battle against principalities and things not seen. We can be tempted, we can fall. We should not see how close we can become to other women besides our wife but rather focus all our affection towards our wives trusting that as weak men and sinners we will have enough trouble doing that as Christ would have us do it.

MATT: That is pretty much it. It’s a bad and harmful double standard as well. Men being friends with only men and females only with females hurts you in the long run.

SIRTURTLE: How?

MATT: Fun Fact women and men are designed to relate and think differently. Therefore as a man going to a man and asking him how my female wife thinks isn’t going to get me very far because as a man he already thinks and processes like I do and thus is pretty much not gonna give me more than I already had, while if I went to a female friend and asked her, she having been designed more relational/as someone who can communicate more she has the perspective my wife would have and this would be able to tell me where my wife is coming from, what shes thinking and How I should approach her in the situation much better than sticking to your own gender can and vise versa for women and men.

SIRTURTLE: NO! absolutely not. NEVER go to a women and ask her how to be a man. That’s one of the reason’s the modern church is so effeminate and weak. The best a women can do is tell you how to relate to your wife as a woman. She can’t tell you how to relate to your wife as a man. You need other WISER men who are good at relating to their wives as MEN to teach you how to be a MAN.

SIRTURTLE: It was only when I stopped thinking as you do and went to the word of God and other men that were skilled as relating to their wives that I began to even gain an understanding of how to be a man around women. Women cannot tell men how to be men. They are not men. They do not know. They can tell you what it looks like from a woman’s perspective, but they can’t tell you HOW to do it.

MATT: It makes no logical sense for people to only talk about emotional problems, and seek counsel and advice from their own gender, because genders think, process and act alike, thus you don’t really get very far by sticking to the same one.
You grow into a better person, a better communicator, and a better processer when seeking counsel and advice from both genders, not just one. Not only that but it helps with communication in relationships. Why struggle for years upon years to communicate with one another and to understand one another based solely on a poor decision to not seek out counsel on how the other thinks, processes and acts? It doesn't.

SIRTURTLE: You can seek council from both genders of course. But on matters of your personal relationship with your wife you do not drag other women into it.

MATT: The idea that its fine by wives for men to turn to men before turning back to them is ridiculous. Why does someone’s gender matter as long as I go back to my wife to work things out? How does where I get my counsel harm her if it is from someone I have no feelings for.

SIRTURTLE: She can’t read your mind, all she knows is that you went to another women and confided relationship issues to her. BAD. You’re essentially bonding with another woman. Intentionally or not. You want to understand your wife go to your wife. You want to know how to be a godly man go to a godly man and ask him. Or better yet go to God and ask him.

MATT: Do I expect to have a lot of female friends when I am married.. no. I however extremely struggle to connect well with other men and am working on that, but that doesn’t mean I will ever abandon for life the friends I have made. Its taken me 4 months shy of 25 years to get as many friends as I have and I am not going to just drop them like I never cared.

SIRTURTLE: I suggest you defiantly work on how to be a man. Seek God first above everything. If you truly are a Christian then you will seek to cultivate a heart that seeks after his will first before anything. Everything else tends to fall into place from there.

DANIEL B:That is simply not correct. I've had several close friendships with girls and "something" never happened. In a couple of cases I *wish* you were right and that they had lead to something.

SIRTURTLE: Really? Because it sounds like I’m right and they went somewhere or stopped being friendships. And if they had been guys you wouldn’t have wanted them to go somewhere would you? I thought we were talking about platonic friendships. Not the scouting type friendships were men pretend to be friends with women because they’re too scared to make a move.

SIRTURTLE: As for all of the “close platonic friendships” that you have now with women. Watch as every one of them becomes not so close or goes somewhere. I’d bet money that I’m right. It may not happen instantly. But it will happen. i.e. those CLOSE PLATONIC friendships are not stable.

SIRTURTLE: and a disclaimer. I am not saying platonic friendships between men and women are not possible, only that close platonic stable ones are impossible.

37. Charity said the following at 5:39 PM on Mar 21:

Marc wrote, "No blood brother is that affectionate all the time to his blood sister."

I don't know about that. I've got a super affectionate relationship with both of my grown brothers (one has been married for four years). And contrary to Marc's comment it is 'all the time.' All four of us (two boys, two girls) are the best of buddies- with tons of laughing, long talks, and hugs.

I can see where Marc is coming from, but his generalization about sibling relationships was awfully broad and thus a rather inaccurate tool for diagnosing.

38. Lauren P. said the following at 6:30 PM on Mar 21:

Thank you, April, you really encouraged me with your story. :) I pray for God to bring a guy friend (or friends) soon, if not an man intentional about marriage.

I don't have any brothers, but my dad, grandpa, cousins, and uncles have provided some element of relating to other guys-just not as much as I know of other girls' experiences.

39. Jaye Barnes said the following at 12:13 AM on Mar 22:

I don't have any close male friends (anymore!), but I do have male friends (a hazard of being at seminary), and my rule is this: if someone else were to see us together, is there anything we're doing that would make them think we're "together"? MMmmm... so, that means no studying alone over coffee, no deep and meaningful one on one conversations about converted imperfect verbs and exegesis after Hebrew class, and no rides alone in cars with boys. And especially not if he's married - oh holy Moses, NO! My feeling is that God is good, and He makes a way for me, as a single woman, to get all of those things I need or want relationally without potentially causing anyone else or myself to stumble. Our culture doesn't teach us to wait very well any more, but God exhorts us in so many places in Scripture to wait patiently and to trust in Him. If I'm out there trying to manufacture some relational high at the expense of another because I don't have the patience to trust in God's provision for my EVERY need, what does that say about my relationship with God? What does that say about my readiness to be married in the first place? Besides that, I care too much about my brothers in Christ to want to put them in a position that could be potentially compromising to them or damaging to their character. It is SO much better to be safe than sorry!

And SirTurtle, you rock the socks offa the whole blog post scene here. That's just my shout out for the night.

40. Loris said the following at 7:06 AM on Mar 22:

I'm still pondering whether we handled our particular situation well three months after it ended. My husband and I invited an engaged male friend who needed a room to stay with us for a few months. All three of us are roughly the same age. My daily contact with the friend was limited to greeting him when he got home from work and offering him a plate of whatever we were having for dinner. The rest of the time he spent holed up in his room on the phone with his out-of-town fiancee, or playing video games with my husband.

His now-wife hasn't talked to me since shortly after he moved in. I don't *think* there was anything inappropriate in our friend staying with us. My attitude toward him was always warm and friendly, but not more than that.

41. jayme said the following at 8:59 AM on Mar 22:

Define friend, I guess.

I expect to be as good of friends with my guy friends when I am married (in 4 months) as I am now.

Friends with a guy (for me) means:
--I can say "hi...how are you doing?"
--I don't hug them unless I'm in a receiving line at their or my wedding or a funeral.
--I can talk about things - but nothing that I wouldn't talk about if my fiance was there or if my pastor was sitting there listening in.
--We can do things together - in a big group, not one-on-one. That'd be a date.
--I can give them advice on things: "Oh, I took my car to this place" or "Try monster.com - people have good luck finding jobs there" or "Yeah, that new government initiative seems really good for the economy". I even give romantic advice when asked for - in very generic terms and usually when my fiance is present.

All of that's true whether they're friends from work or church or my soccer team.

So, my friendships won't really change.

42. Thomas said the following at 9:30 AM on Mar 22:

I'm a guy who has always felt more comfortable talking to ladies, so this blog was a good read. A vast majority of my friends (particularly my closer ones) are ladies, which I've realized is out of balance. One of my goals for this year is to make progress on rectifying that.

There have been a couple of times where I've desired to move beyond friendship with a young lady friend, but they were uninterested in doing so. I'm no longer friends with either of them--in one case we grew apart, in the other she started tearing me down instead of building me up and I decided I didn't need that.

I've learned from those experiences and am a lot more careful about growing close with the young ladies in my life now. In my group of closest friends are a couple ladies who are married or in relationships and I've made sure to maintain appropriate boundaries with them to honor the men in their life.

43. EKB said the following at 10:35 AM on Mar 22:

Interesting points all around, but I think the realities of the modern workplace make this more complicated. For instance, I'm a woman in a field that is about 90% male and that requires working long hours in small teams. In that type of a situation, it's inevitable that you will become good friends with your coworkers (unless they're complete jerks!) It's also likely that you will be required to spend time one on one with them, for instance in mentoring-type relationships. I'm not married, but a lot of people at the company are.

I think this situation calls for a lot of caution, prayer, and emotional boundaries, but I am disappointed that advice by Christians (ie. Jon Acuff, who is normally awesome) often ignores the fact that men and women are often coworkers. For instance, he suggests never being alone with a member of the opposite sex, not even in a public place like a car. That would be completely impossible for a woman working with mostly men. It would mean no performance evaluations (higher-ups all male), little mentoring, and even greater expenses for the company (ie. paying for two people to take separate cars to go to the same place, for instance to see a client.)

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

44. EM said the following at 10:50 AM on Mar 22:

Yes, you can have opposite sex friends before & after marriage.

No, it's very unwise to have close, "intimate" opposite sex friends in your age group after marriage.

Lots of this discussion turns on what is "close" or "intimate" and how much physical affection is permissible. But these are precisely the questions where wisdom, not law, is needed. People differ and cultures differ.

Contrary to some of the commenters, guys and girls can have sibling-like affectionate relationships. Some guys do regularly twirl hug their sisters. For some guys, this would be dangerous and unwise with a woman to whom they aren't related. For others it's not.

The married should know themselves and their spouse. They should not put themselves in a tempting situation and they should not tempt their spouse.

For both men and women, it is very unwise to put yourself in the position of seeking sympathy from an opposite sex friend regarding your marital problems. But that's different from seeking counsel, though there can be a fine line for both people to walk, it can be WISE to ask an opposite sex friend for advice sometimes.

Here is how it works in our relationship. My fiance and I both hug opposite sex friends - but we wouldn't do so if we were alone with the friend. As much as possible, each of our opposite sex friends from before we were a couple are now OUR friends together (we each have friends that the other still hasn't met because of distance). Neither of us maintain an opposite sex friendship in which our partner is not welcome.

We also try to understand the nature of the friendship. I'm "chummy" with guy friends w/ whom I've had a close working relationship for years. I'm very open with my pastor, who has counseled and cared for me for a decade and is like an older brother to me in many ways. He's affectionate with his little sister's best friends and cares deeply for some of his female former coworkers.

I want him to maintain healthy friendships with men and women of different ages. He wants the same for me. These relationships have been appropriate as singles and they remain appropriate as we move towards marriage.

Neither of us are suspicious / overly jealous people (there is a godly jealousy that accompanies the exclusivity of marriage) and both of us reserve the right to speak up to protect our marriage if we are concerned about the nature of an opposite sex friendship.

45. Cat said the following at 10:55 AM on Mar 22:

Matt #2

Call me possessive. Call me crazy. Call me whatever. But I've seen what it's like and how I feel when a man I love is closer to another woman then me. When I get married to a man I want to be his closest friend. I want to be the only woman he shares his deepest secrets and his hopes and dreams with. I want to be his one and only. I will not share him with another woman. I just won't.

46. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:04 AM on Mar 22:

obewan (35): The Bible study groups to which you refer (the ones saying “couples only”) sound like they've missed the point a bit: that rule excludes both Jesus and St. Paul, as well as a huge number of other great theological thinkers!

If the contributions of uncoupled people are not considered worth having, then large pieces of the Bible have to be ignored . . .

47. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:16 AM on Mar 22:

Lauren P (12, 38): Count me as another voice encouraging you not to worry.

You (women, that is) having close female friends is considered a very good thing by us men, because those women will be the ones that support you in ways we can't; not that they'll love you more, of course, but they'll be there for you in different ways. They have a “girl perspective” on things, I guess.

Having lots of guy friends doesn't provide the same additional support after marriage, partly because there's obviously a greater risk of things going too far in those situations, but more importantly because your husband will already be providing the “guy perspective” on things.

Also, we don't really mind too much if you're not used to dealing with men, and you get tongue-tied when we approach you – it's charming and cute to us (as long as you eventually relax).

48. Alison said the following at 11:23 AM on Mar 22:

I just wanted to throwout there that these rules should also apply to our married church leaders. I know many pastors take measures to protect their marriages. As single women we need to honor those boundaries. Things to consider should include-
* Only stopping in to meet with your pastor when you know other people are in the office.
* Emails should be strictly business oriented or things you think your pastor needs to know (e.g. another church member has been hospitalized, notes of appreciation).
* In emails that contain personal information/prayer concerns consider carbon copying another church official.
*If your pastor gives you his cellphone number it was probably for a specific purpose. Don't use the number for other uses.

49. Tami said the following at 11:33 AM on Mar 22:

Regarding a preponderance of Bible studies for "couples only" -- in addition to what Trevor said about a devaluation of what unmarrieds have to offer the church, I would also say that the church isn't really functioning to its fullest extent. I can see why *some* small groups should be couples only (premarriage/newlyweds/topics on building a marriage) but I don't see why everyone going through, say, a NavPress Bible study on Romans would need to be segregated. And, "Couples only" doesn't just leave out the never-married or divorced; it also leaves out the older widows and widowers, who more than likely have a LOT of life experience to share.

50. Nicole said the following at 11:44 AM on Mar 22:

I would be crushed if my best freind or my brother stopped seeing me because the girl they were dating was uncomfortable with me being around. Its just one more reason why being forced into singleness is so lonely. You loose everyone. A woman won't mind half as much to have you around if she knows you're already in a relationship with someone else.

51. S said the following at 11:49 AM on Mar 22:

#43 -
I am one of those female workers you describe.

Quite honestly, I could not do my job if I could never be alone with a man. (And by alone, I mean, in a car, at dinner, in a cubicle, etc.) Business travel isn't like "Up In the Air", we don't go hang out at bars and crash corporate functions. If we're at dinner, we're talking about what just happened that day and what we have planned for the next.

52. Jo said the following at 12:17 PM on Mar 22:

My opinion on this has changed since reading Boundless... and more recently it's changed back.

Personally, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have a problem with my (future)husband spending time alone with female friends. There are a lot of caveats to that - I would expect that his friends would to a certain extent become my friends and for us all to hang out together too; I would not be okay with him having a friendship that I wasn't welcomed into; I probably wouldn't expect his alone time with female friends to be regular or frequent. But as an 'every now and then' thing with women that I knew and trusted, I think I'd be fine with it.

I do however totally understand why some couples would want to put stricter boundaries on this issue. And after reading Boundless for a while and seeing a lot of "married people should never spend time alone with the opposite sex" advice, I started to think that when I got married I'd definitely have to tone down my friendships with male friends, and figured that was a shame, but fair enough.

But then I said this to a male friend, who was quite surprised, and disagreed. And then I realised that I'd resigned myself to the Boundless view even though it's not a problem for me, because I assumed it would be a problem for my (future)husband. Which is crazy, because it might not be.

So to summarise, if I marry a guy who wants tighter boundaries I'll be cool with that, so long as the boundaries he wants are reasonable. But I might marry a guy who thinks as I do, and if that happens, I think we and our friendships will still be just fine.

53. Jo said the following at 12:34 PM on Mar 22:

Also, re: work situations, and relationship with pastors and so on, I do think it's important to be wise, but I also think it's possible to take boundaries to unreasonable lengths.

I am alone with my (male, married) boss during appraisals and so on, and it's never even crossed my mind to consider it an issue. Sometimes I am alone in the office with a (male, married) co-worker who I get on with really well. I'm not quite sure how I would avoid these situations even if I wanted to. I wouldn't spend time with either of them outside of work without their wives or our other colleagues there, however.

My (male, married) pastor is 30 years older than me and he and his wife have known me since I was a toddler. I do email him for advice / prayer on personal stuff sometimes and have met with him at his home to discuss things too.

These things have never felt inappropriate to me. Things similar to this might become inappropriate if they were happening very often without good reason, or if I was attracted to the guy or vice versa, or if one of us was going out of our way to be alone with the other, etc. But in and of themselves, these things aren't wrong. It's a good idea to have general boundaries, but in some situations those boundaries might need to be loosened for good reasons.

Also, it didn't even occur to me that I'm sometimes alone in the office with my co-worker until I wrote this post. I think if you're so self-conscious about being alone with a man that you notice every time it happens and worry about it, that probably means you're focusing on it more than necessary and making it into a much bigger issue than it really is.

54. Keith said the following at 1:30 PM on Mar 22:

It can be tough to find same sex friends who also have Christian character. My male friends who I grew up with in the church have no ambition, have no serious career plans, get drunk, use drugs, engage in extreme forms of sexual immorality, don't attend church regularly anymore, and won't join a community group (home Bible study).

That doesn't make me better than them, but it is tough because we no longer have much in common. So it is easier for me to find female friend because in the church all the young men, well, aren't there.

55. obewan said the following at 1:43 PM on Mar 22:

Tami #49:

That said... obewan, is there a reason why more unmarrieds aren't initiating Bible studies at church? (Genuine question -- because I'm wondering if the leadership doesn't realize the problem in excluding a significant portion of the church population from the life of the church!)
----------------------------------
I am sure the church would be happy to support more singles Bible studies if leaders would step up to the plate.
They just don't push people into leadership when there is a need.

We are going through a dry spell because several singles leaders have either married or moved away.

I could volunteer myself but my condo is now a locked gated community with limited parking and I only have room for 4 or 5 people in my living room.

56. Kristina M. said the following at 2:10 PM on Mar 22:

In my experience, there is no such thing as an opposite-sex friendship that doesn't involve one or both parties involved having a secret, if not open, crush on the other. I've been on both sides. Almost all of my male friends now at one time had a crush on me. I was in love with my ex-best friend. In all cases, someone was "feeling" someone in the relationship, but it wasn't reciprocated. These guys have remained my platonic friends only because they finally moved on and/or got married or entered other relationships.

57. Kristina M. said the following at 2:16 PM on Mar 22:

Paula (#6)said: "In my experience, guys can think a friendship is platonic while their female friends have already day-dreamed about the wedding."

SO TRUE!

58. EKB said the following at 2:56 PM on Mar 22:

S (#51),

I completely agree with you and that has been my experience as well. It just seems like these topics tend to completely ignore corporate reality. Is the assumption that women shouldn't be working in these roles, or that Christian women are too "feminine" to be interested in jobs that lean heavily male? (ie. engineering, math, finance, computer programming) I ask this out of sincerity, no sarcasm intended.

59. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 3:43 PM on Mar 22:

Intersting discussion . . .
As a single female, some of my closest friends are married couples and in both cases I was friends with the guy first. I grew up at church with both of these guys and over time we became good friends. They have both been married for a few years and I am still good friends with both of them.
I am also friends with their wives, who I met through these guys. While both of these guys are very careful in their friendships with me not to put themselves or me in a compromising situation, I still can spend time with them and have conversations with them - more often than not with their wives as well, but not always. I value these guys and their wives in my life far too much to ever do anything to damage their relationships with their spouses.

But, as a single female hasn't always had the most reliable car there have been a couple of times since they got married where I have been alone in a car with them. In both of those situations I actually spoke with their wives about the problem I was having to see if they as a couple could come to help me and in both of those situations their wives were unable to come but sent their husbands to help me anyways. We have that kind of a friendship where they trust their husbands and they trust me. Considering that my parents were out of the country and I don't have other close guy friends I felt comfortable calling, I appreciated that these married guys were willing to help and that there wives were OK with it.

I may have met their wives through them, but from the start I was VERY intentional about developing a close, meaningful friendship with their wives, because I knew that if I didn't develop that friendship with their wives I would be losing the friendship of two guys I greatly respected and valued their input in my life.

60. Timothy Stone said the following at 5:25 PM on Mar 22:

What has been said about the Bible Studies issue is true. In other areas as well, it seems that married couples only want to associate with other couples. That is sad, because all it has done for some of us, like myself, is make us not want to risk getting close to people again.

I've thought about asking people if they will cut back on our friendship in favor of other couples. If so, I'd rather know now, so I can avoid being friends in the first place and being hurt. I'm not a victim, but I have lost close relatives in the past ten years, as well as friends when I was in Iraq, and I'm tired of losing people and being hurt.

61. David said the following at 5:38 PM on Mar 22:

Judging by how Boundless rejected my comments about how married male Christian physicians are able to examine women's private parts and still not sin sexually with those women, I can see how the "boundless view" on opposite sex friendships has no room for disagreement.

If you can't separate in your mind the role an opposite-sex person has in your life and believe that you are forced into sin if you are close friends with them, then you are hopelessly immature in your faith and self-control.

62. Leigh said the following at 5:55 PM on Mar 22:

following at 5:32 PM on Mar 20:

Dear Marc,

I am so glad you've spoke these words of wisdom to me. When you get time I would like to see the star that God pinned on your sholder. I was always under the impression that it was God who could see the heart. Apparently you, Marc, have been blessed with this spiritual gift, and through the web too!. Simply amazing! At the great white throne judgment, be sure to wave at me, you are sure to be seated by GOD himself. I've never met anyone like you before. Marc the holy. Wow.

You Say I am "fooling" myself. And that "no blood brother is that affectionate all the time" Well Marc the HOLY. I happend to be very affectionate with my blood brothers, I hug them every day and I kiss them on top of the head. Maybe you would like to addres my problem with insestual relationships. And for the record, he hugs me and picks me up after a year, or so w/out seeing me. So, Marc, we don't do this every day.

You say that I use the "brother/sister" relationship so I dont feel guilty. UMmmm NO. We ARE like brother and sister. Marc. I first noticed his wife, girl friend of a month at the time, feeling insecure 5 years ago. And thats when I decided that I needed to alter how I commune with my best friend for 20 years. OUT OF RESPECT for the woman in his life! Which I DID. I was the first one of his childhood friends to meet her, He would come to my house in the middle of the night just to tell me how wonderful she was. He would bring me pictures of him and her so I could see how beautiful she was. And he would always say "and the pictures don't do her justice" And a few months ago when they had their first child. I gave her a baby shower. And I was at everyone of them. Not for HIM, but for her. I was simply telling about my relationship with him and her and how I communicate with the two of them to give an example of the correct thing to do when you are in that situation. Now, Marc..... You said that I needed to apologize and search my heart. What do you want me to apologize for? For being his friend, for showing her respect? For being HER friend??? What am I searching my heart for Marc because God knows my heart, I know my heart, and I mean NOTHING like you are insinuating.

BOUNDLESS!!!!!

Normaly I wouldn't have replied so sarcastically but this is ridiclous. I use to read boundless every day. But it feels like these blogs have turned into people attacking other peoples moral. I think it is perfectly acceptable to have a debate about issues pertaining to young people. But when people are allowed to attack the character of another person it crosses the line. What are the rules for the bloggers? Where are the posted? ARE there any??? I see so offten these blogs go off on things that don't do ANY of us any good. I use to grow spiritual from reading boundless blogs, now I just feel blah when I read them. I haven't read a blog in somtime. I found this topic to be an issue that young adults are facing a lot right now. As good friends get married it can sometimes complicate things. I posted how I handled it to set an example for another person who might find themselfs in the same situation. And it was ALLOWED that my moral was attacked. I wouldn't care and wouldn't be so annoyed with something somebody said that I dont know if this didn't happen so much on boundless now. For lack of better words... it sucks.

63. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:14 PM on Mar 22:

Tami (49): Excellent points! I would actually combine two of them, though, and suggest that the “older widows and widowers” are the very ones you need most in a study involving “premarriage/newlyweds/topics on building a marriage”.

After all, people who have actually done the “until death do us part” piece of the marriage vows are (hopefully) likely to have a fairly good perspective on marriage.

64. Lou said the following at 9:30 PM on Mar 22:

I think it depends a lot on the purpose of a friendship. I've heard it said (but I forget by who) that friendships tend to be built around an outside interest while the interest in a romantic relationship tends to turn inwards and the focus becomes the relationship. I think we all know that it's pretty easy for a friendship to morph into a romantic interest and so many many people think "better safe than sorry" and make rules against all opposite-sex friendships in order to keep themselves safe. That's well and good and a fine precaution to take in you have the ability, but it's just that: a precaution. There's nothing wrong with a friendship with either gender in and of itself, and insisting that others follow our precautionary rules is, I think, where much legalism creeps in. At the same time, some friendships really do stay just friends, and sometimes you need to be friends with the opposite gender, as in the examples given about women working in male-dominated fields. So, be wise with them. My personal thoughts on what that wisdom entails would be to avoid any kind of close opposite gender friendships when one/both of the parties is married unless there is a specific necessary reason for them simply because I think Jon Acuff is right that no one just decides to fall out of love with their spouse and have an affair one morning. Others fall prey to temptation often and it's probably prudent not to think too highly of our own abilities to escape it.

65. Ted Slater said the following at 9:47 PM on Mar 22:

David (#61) -- we chose not to publish your two comments NOT because they conflicted with some "'boundless view' on opposite sex friendship," but because they were just too explicit for this community.

You give yourself too much credit, David, if you think we're somehow afraid of your opinions. ;-)

66. BDB said the following at 10:23 PM on Mar 22:

Leigh (#62) - I think they allowed the original comment critical of you to be published because they were pretty confident that others would step to your defense, as several have. Marc has been pretty heavily out-voted.

For the most part, we are educated adults here (including those who are self-educated by reading widely.) Yes, it can be challenging. It's not bad to have one's thinking challenged. You may come away even more firmly convinced that you are on the right path.

67. BDB said the following at 10:42 PM on Mar 22:

Here are some interesting rules to consider:

For men, don't go out to lunch alone with a female co-worker (unless you INTEND to start a relationship). People will talk, even if it's unsubstantiated. And if one of you is married, there will be rumors of an affair. Better to grab a 3rd person.

If a married person of the opposite gender "friends" you, and then you get a friend request from their spouse, always accept the spouse, too. Or alternatively, accept their mom's friend request. Are you writing anything on their wall that their mom would disapprove of?

Those who have read Passion and Purity recognize how uncompromising Elisabeth Elliot is on things like appropriate behavior among people who aren't married to each other. If you read closely, she an her future husband went off to talk - alone - for hours at a time. But they followed the "hands off and clothes on" rule.

I'm quite certain that to have a real, significant conversation often requires pulling away from the crowd, because whenever the majority don't want to discuss anything "serious" (you know, like marriage), serious topics aren't discussed, people just joke around instead. For those who have a calling, you probably won't be able to have much a conversation with anyone else with that calling if you stay in a group that doesn't share that call.

68. BDB said the following at 10:53 PM on Mar 22:

Lou (#64) - much of what you've written is located in the "Friendship" chapter of C.S. Lewis'The Four Loves.

In fact, he suggests that the main reason men and women are not traditionally thought of as "friends" is that they traditionally have worked in separate occupations (men off hunting while the women gathered or farmed, perhaps with children and elderly men present.)

In fields such as his, Literature, it is more common for opposite-sex friendship to flourish. And how he met his wife, who was also a prize-winning author.

69. S said the following at 4:11 AM on Mar 23:

#67 - "For men, don't go out to lunch alone with a female co-worker (unless you INTEND to start a relationship). People will talk, even if it's unsubstantiated. And if one of you is married, there will be rumors of an affair. Better to grab a 3rd person."

I really do see where you're going with this, but it's just not practical. I really think it is dependent on the workplace culture, but in my office, if two co-workers go to lunch together, rumors do not start that there is an affair. And if someone would suggest it, they'd be laughed at. If anything, they'd think something was going on with changing jobs or something was going on with a project that was confidential. I can honestly say that I've worked here 12+ years, and I can't think of any affairs that have taken place between co-workers. (And believe me, if there was, the rumor mill would be working overtime.)

70. Naomi said the following at 8:12 AM on Mar 23:

My personal rules for opposite-gender friendships beyond marriage:

(I am a single 27-year-old woman, with friendship with married men and their wives).

-No alone time. EVER.
-No dinners/lunches/coffee alone with any married guy. EVER.
-No riding in cars with married men. Actually, I don't ride alone in cars with any men or boys, unless I am on a date and even then, short distances.
-I don't spend one-on-one time with married men. EVER.
-I don't talk on the phone with married men. The only exception to that rule is if I have a specific question for him. In which I will call the house phone (not cell phone), greet his wife who probably answered the phone and say, "I have a quick question for Pastor.. or so-and-so." If he calls me for a quick informational call, same thing. I tell him to say hi to the wife. :) .. I have found that these informational/quick answer phone calls generally last less than 5 min.
- No texting. Only exception is the rare "we can meet you guys here @ this time". If I can text his wife instead, that's my preference.
- Rare, limited online chats. As in.. once a month or every couple months. LIMITED is the key word here.

It's all about honoring the marriage covenant for me. Honoring HIS marriage covenant as I would hope others would honor my marriage covenant with my future husband. Yes, it IS about appearances (have no appearance of evil) and also making sure to create NO opportunities for sin (make no provision for the flesh).

Because in the end, we all wanna be blameless before the Lord. :)

71. Matt said the following at 8:24 AM on Mar 23:

I think a lot of the problem with this topic I seen so far in the responses is How people define things. The huge huge flaw I see through a lot of people is the fact that some seem to define intimate friendships as close friendships.

In other words they don't see/get/or understand they are two completely different things. I can have an intimate close friendship with my wife, or I can be close to friend of the opposite sex and not be intimate. You Can Be close without the intimacy because there are different levels/variances between the two.

I see no problem with having close personal friendships with the opposite sex outside of my wife, because I know there are ways to keep them at the close friends level rather than the the intimate relationship level. two separate things.

72. Tami said the following at 9:31 AM on Mar 23:

I pretty much agree with a lot of the cautionary things people have said here, with a couple variations:

1. About going out to lunch with co-workers of the opposite sex -- it's hard to say here. I appreciate the note of caution, and don't think youu should simply throw caution to the wind, especially with married co-workers (or if you're married yourself). However, whether "people will talk" or not somewhat depends on the reputation you've established. Most co-workers will see that if you go out with an opposite-sex co-worker once in a while, it's generally about work, and that you're being collegial... especially if you go to the places everyone *else* goes for lunch and you're likely to run into others. A while back, I had one good male co-worker I went out with really regularly, but people knew he had a girlfriend (became a wife) and also knew the type of woman I was (er, am) so it never came up. And yet, some gossip-prone people will talk NO MATTER WHAT. I think that mostly starts happening if you go to lunch all the time (even if with other people) AND you're together in the office all the time AND if you hang out outside of work hours on a very frequent basis.

2. I've had male mentors who are friends... I knew the man first (because he's been my Sunday school teacher, or pastor) and then got to know the wife. I would welcome the wife being there -- and generally she's aware we're talking -- but my conversations often end up being just with the man. It's not a situation where I'm always just hanging out with the man and never invite the woman, but sometimes it happens that I'm talking just with him (e.g., pastor's office hours).

So in short, caution and respect are absolutely always appropriate, but a lot of this has to do with your own character, and the character of the person you're with.

73. hlc said the following at 9:32 AM on Mar 23:

I am a single woman and co-lead a small group with a married guy. I've worked with 2 other guys and one was married and the other was engaged. We do meet one-on-one and talk on the phone. I always make sure the wife feels as included as she wants in the leading and planning, but due to other callings and spiritual giftings, has decided to be less involved in the lesson prep and planning of the group. I occasionally check-in to make sure the wife feels included and okay with the situation. In NONE of the 3 partnerships has there been any issue. In the first two partnerships, when our time of leading ended, so did most of our communication. We still see each other at functions and occasionally send a quick check-in on FB or something, but stopped the weekly emails and phone calls, which is how it should be. I'm sure that if any one of the three of us in each of the situation felt uncomfortable we would have adjusted accordingly.

Honestly, I think this is one of those things where we can get so caught up in a legalistic list of things to do or not do, but it comes down to discernment and individual conviction. We who feel it's fine to go out to lunch or ride in a car with a member of the opposite sex shouldn't judge those who don't and those who feel like it's okay for those things shouldn't judge those of us who do.

74. Mrs_M said the following at 9:53 AM on Mar 23:

I completely agree with Ally #3 on this issue. It's about being smart. It's about being vigilant in protecting your marriage from temptation. It's about going above and beyond to honor and respect your spouse above all others (yes, even if that means hurting the feeling of others....I will gladly hurt a friends feelings over disrespecting my husband)

My husband and I choose to have no opposite gender friends, unless they are friends with both of us. If a girl contacts him, I'll respond. And vice versa if a guy contacts me. That means no texting, no facebook messages, no emails, no phone calls, nothing with opposite gender friends (outside of mandatory work related responsibilities). It's just a way that we choose to protect our marriage and ensure that friendships are kept in check.

75. EM said the following at 10:50 AM on Mar 23:

#73 - you've got it
"Honestly, I think this is one of those things where we can get so caught up in a legalistic list of things to do or not do, but it comes down to discernment and individual conviction. We who feel it's fine to go out to lunch or ride in a car with a member of the opposite sex shouldn't judge those who don't and those who feel like it's okay for those things shouldn't judge those of us who do. "

Ditto.

76. Samantha said the following at 11:02 AM on Mar 23:

Mrs_M (74), good for you! That sounds like the kind of self-control and intelligent behavior that one needs for a marriage to succeed. :)

If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been married?

77. RLynn said the following at 11:08 AM on Mar 23:

No riding in cars with married men?

Whoa.
So, when I:
- give a ride to a married man because we are attending a ministry-related meeting (and his wife has their car), I'm courting trouble...
-get a ride from a married man from church (I left my car in their family garage) on our way to a ministry retreat, I'm courting trouble....
-get picked up from the airport from a married man (his wife couldn't come and stayed home with the baby), I'm courting trouble....
-drive an engaged seminary student home from a ministry event so his fiancee doesn't have to make a round trip at 9pm to pick him up and bring him back, I'm courting trouble...

If people feel like they would be tempted by being in the car with a married member of the opposite sex, by all means, restrict yourselves. I feel like I'm doing a friend a favor or they are doing me a favor--feelings of sexuality/intimacy don't even enter my mind.

78. Ted Slater said the following at 11:19 AM on Mar 23:

RLynn (#77) -- Nobody is mandating that you do anything. Nobody is denouncing you for your opinions. Some people have simply expressed their personal convictions about this. No need to get all worked up and defensive.

79. Leigh said the following at 11:30 AM on Mar 23:

I didn't mean to get so annoyed with him. It just kind of came out of no where. And it was about my 26 year relationship with a good friend. (we are 27, i dont count the first year or the womb) I wish I would have just ignored him. He knows nothing of me I know nothing of him. For all I know that may just be the way he is. One of those people you take with a grain of salt?

It seems to me that the people who "read" into things like that all the time are the same people who would probably find themselfs in a messy situation with a friend who is the opposite sex? Maybe...

80. Helen said the following at 11:56 AM on Mar 23:

All this talk about opposite sex friendship makes me wonder why bother? Why have this friendship that can potentially put your marriage in jeopardy? i.e. Why start it in the first place? Disclaimer #1: I'm not suggesting for you to give the opposite gender cold shoulder. You can talk to the opposite (preferrably in a public setting) and get to know them. Disclaimer #2: I'm referring also to the quality of the friendship. You're opposite sex friendship shouldn't have the same quality as your same-sex friendship i.e. talking to the opposite sex about personal issues and struggles. So no one-on-one time (phone calls included unless it's for logistic ministry reasons or for work). In sum: Make it a general rule to focus on same-sex friendships. These you can keep after your marriage. Just my two cents.

81. RLynn said the following at 1:09 PM on Mar 23:

Hello, Ted-

I tried to do this "off the record"--and write directly to you at Boundless, but it didn't look like I would get a personal response.

I apologize if you think my comment was offensive. I can see where you may have found it sarcastic, but I purposely added the last comments to recognize (sincerely-no sarcasm intended) that some people may need to restrict themselves if they feel like the situations I gave (real ones)will get them into trouble. What puzzles me (and why I am writing again) is that I have read comments on this blog that were much more heated (and hateful)than what I said with no comment from you.

82. JuliaClare said the following at 1:21 PM on Mar 23:

Here's my two cents about my relationship with my best friend's husband. He and I are friends with boundaries.

-I never spend time alone with him
-If I do call him (which happens every now and then) it is to ask a question and lasts no longer than a minute or two.
-I have almost cut IM chatting out, and definitely don't IM him (and he doesn't have texting so that's out too)
-I do ride in the car with him, but ONLY if his wife is in the car too. The three of us often go do things together.
-I would never tell him anything I didn't expect his wife to hear (unless it was a birthday present type situation...I did ask him if they already owned what I wanted to give her once)

Also I think it is worth mentioning that I didn't really become friends with him until he started dating his wife...it'll be harder I think when my single guy friends (I have two good guy friends) get married. I expect that I'll either become good friends with their wives or our friendship will have to wane a good deal. I have almost the same boundaries with them as I do with my best friend's husband, and so without the involvement of their hypothetical future wives time spent together (a big part of any friendship) would be pared down to almost no time at all.

I firmly believe in protecting marriage, even at the cost of friendship (though I don't think it means it HAS to cost friendship).

83. Ted Slater said the following at 1:49 PM on Mar 23:

RLynn (#81) -- I personally replied to your e-mail, and am happy to reply here on the blog as well.

I wasn't saying that your comment was "offensive." I'm simply saying that you're arguing against a point that nobody has made. Nobody is telling you not to ride alone in a car with a married man; folks are simply explaining their particular convictions about it, how it has potential to lead to compromising situations -- for either you *or* for the guy. When you say "whoa" and repeat the phrase "courting trouble," it makes me think you're more worked up about this than you need to be.

Why did I reply to your comment, and not to others? Honestly, I'm pretty strapped for time, and usually am only able to read some of the comments on this blog. Yours was among those I read this morning.

For future questions, feel free to either e-mail me or post a comment. Our discussion doesn't have to be "off the record." I'm happy chatting right out in the open. :-)

84. Matt said the following at 2:03 PM on Mar 23:

#80 Helen says

"Disclaimer #2: I'm referring also to the quality of the friendship. You're opposite sex friendship shouldn't have the same quality as your same-sex friendship i.e. talking to the opposite sex about personal issues and struggles."

I still still still do not get this double standard logic whatsoever. Why is it okay for your spouse to talk to same sex friends(who are just friends) but somehow a magic fairy waves a wand around females and your female friends(who are just that friends and only that) cant actually be capable of having personal conversations like male friends can? As long as their are no feelings, as long as its just a friendship with the opposite sex why does their gender matter? I really dont see how it should.

If their was attraction or more than friendship going on its a problem, but why are male same sex friends somehow more capable than female opposite sex friendsfrom helping me with personal stuff.

I know that's stuff you go to your wife with, but when your wife and you don't agree on something how does going to a man who doesn't think, act or process like your wife, but thinks like you actually help you understand where your wife is coming from and how she sees things.

85. EM said the following at 2:29 PM on Mar 23:

Why bother w/ opposite sex friendships, Helen? (#80)

Because we in the body of Christ need each other. We need the input of a wide variety of brothers and sisters, speaking into our lives with wisdom, calling us on our sin, challenging us intellectually, encouraging us where we are strong and helping us where we are weak.

For the married, it is likely that no one will do this to the degree that your believing spouse will. But just like you need same sex fellowship beyond your spouse, you also need opposite sex fellowship beyond your spouse.

Yes, you need to honor your marriage and guard your heart so that an opposite sex friend never replaces your spouse in your affections. Yes, you need to relate wisely and not seek out alone time that builds emotional intimacy with an opposite sex friend. But how relationally poor is the man or woman whose only adult opposite sex friendships are with their spouse? How much wisdom and encouragement and correction you will miss? How much of the body of Christ will you miss?

What if Priscilla and Aquila behaved this way? Paul would have never been invited into their home. Apollos may never have benefitted from their sound doctrine.

I WANT my fiance to have female friends besides me. I want him to relate with other women as sisters, with purity - not as threats, with suspicion. I want him to focus on friendships with men but to be friends with my girlfriends and to welcome me into his friendships with women. I want him to ask for counsel from his mom, his sister and godly women in the church, as well as from me. I want him to know that I cherish his friendships and want them to flourish. He need never hide these relationships from me or end them because of me (as long as he treats his female friends as sisters, with purity).

86. EM said the following at 3:34 PM on Mar 23:

I don't have hard and fast RULES for relating to the opposite sex besides those that are in Scripture.

However, I do practice certain wisdom principles, which I would commend for consideration if you are aware of needing guidance in this area.

FIRST, even as a single, I never allowed myself to view a married man as a potential partner, nor I allow him to express sentiments consistent with pursuit. As a soon-to-be married woman, that now extends to any man.

OTHER THAN THAT, I
*Endeavor to include a man's spouse/girlfriend (and my guy) in our interactions - this may not always happen but I make it clear that I welcome interaction with the lady in their lives

*Do not share ANYTHING (of a personal nature - obviously, there may be work related things that shouldn't be repeated) with the married man that I wouldn't say in front of their partner or that I'd mind if they repeated to her nor allow them to share something personal that I can't share with my guy.

*Communicate my respect for & to their wife/girlfriend and communicate my respect for my guy

*Discourage them from complaining about their spouse/girlfriend to me. If this happens a little bit, I will try to help them examine their heart or consider how their partner might be correct. If it happens a lot, I'll redirect them to a brother for advice. Don't complain about my guy to a male friend (this does not exclude seeking counsel about a marital issue, if needed).

*I am judicious with physical contact. While how much physical contact is comfortable for me depends a lot on sub-cultural context, the man's age and how close a relationship we have, I also need to be sensitive to what might tempt the brother - or his wife/girlfriend. If the contact bothered my guy, I'd stop it too. No matter how innocent my behavior, I cannot forget to consider others above myself. For me, this usually means no long, chest-to-chest hugs with guys.

*I try to stay out in the open. Unless there is a very good reason and the time is short, I avoid being alone behind closed doors with a married man - and, if I am, it would be a rare exception for me to make physical contact when we are out of sight of other people.

Hope that helps some. You'll notice the idea here is a general principle, not a hard / fast rule. for example, There is a man who is old enough to be my father and has looked out for me in many ways since my dad died. I will sometimes give him a chest-to-chest hug, but not if we are alone. I will be alone in the car with a man if there is a good reason (carpooling to a political event, for instance) but wouldn't make a habit of doing it with the same man.

Overall, since both married and single believing men are, first of all, my brothers, I don't see a whole lot of difference in the way I treat them. I laugh with them, pray with them, talk with them and seek to walk in Christian unity with them (if they are believers). In a healthy sibling relationship, there is warmth and trust and vulnerability - not suspicion and distance / distrust.

87. Mrs_M said the following at 3:35 PM on Mar 23:

#76 (Samantha)- we've been married 66 days. :-) So, definitely not the seasoned married couple. :-) Yes, I will be the first admit that we are NOT the experts on marriage and do not have it all figured out. But our convictions lead us to restrict opposite sex friendships in this way. But thanks for the encouragement! :-D

#80 Helen- I'm with Helen on this one. I think she summed it up very well. It's about the level of friendship that we are talking about (and obviously not crazy isolated scenarios like RLynn #77 suggested)

88. Kit said the following at 7:30 PM on Mar 23:

I know I'm the resident boundless liberal, so this will probably come as a surprise, haha, but I actually do not agree with many opposite-sex friendships outside of marriage. A few long-standing ones, perhaps, are okay, and we each have a few of those. But other than that, I simply don't like it. I think it comes between the 'oneness' and all that. We have friends as a couple, but I am not comfortable with him just having female single friends. It's just...wierd. And my thought, as a woman, is, why are they interested in him, or vice versa for me? We all know the answer to that, and it's not a good one. So, just my 2 cents.

89. Nathaniel said the following at 8:45 PM on Mar 23:

#84 (Matt)

I think her point is that when you bring something like that to a member of the opposite sex, it can lead to intimacy far more easily than if you were talking to someone of the same sex about it.

It isn't about 'no feelings right now' but about protecting your heart against allowing feelings to grow where they shouldn't.

Here's an analogy:

A king is looking to hire a new driver for his carriage. He narrows his choice down to three candidates.

The first tells him, "I can drive only twelve inches from the edge of a cliff and not go over!"

The second tells him, "I can drive only six inches from the edge of a cliff and not go over!"

The last one tells him, "I would stay as far from the edge as possible, because I value your safety, my king."

The third one was the one who got the job.

In short, we're not supposed to be flirting with sin. We're not supposed to put ourselves in situations where sin can easily arise. For you, you may have no problem going to another woman to talk to her about problems with your wife. For someone else, they might have every problem in the world about it. But for both of you, your first thought should be to honor God.

No double standard.

Personally, if I were in that situation that you describe, I don't see how I still couldn't talk to my wife about it. If you're a student of her at all, wouldn't you understand how she processes things? How she acts? How she thinks? If worst came to worst I'd probably go and ask my pastor and his wife to counsel me together (after spending a lot of time in prayer about it).

90. BDB said the following at 9:33 PM on Mar 23:

Clarification on the lunch issue: I'm writting from a management perspective. If you're a manager or supervisor, particularly of a large department, decisions will always be second-guessed by someone.

There are individuals who do hire their friends. By that I mean their drinking buddies. Ability to consume alcohol is rarely an effective measure of someone's skills. Such people build poor organizations.

Being disciplined about how you behave with your staff is important to keeping perceptions in line. If you have one employee who is awesome, the right management decision is to give them more responsibility and a raise. If the are of the opposite sex, and you keep going to lunch with them because they are an awesome employee, someone, somewhere will claim they only got the promotion/raise because of favoritism.

Granted, this may not matter so much if you work in a small office where everyone knows each other and would otherwise eat at their desk together anyway. And it's different if there are only two of you at some meeting in another city; it's rude to make your co-worker eat alone.

But consider it. If you consider it, it forces you to think through if you have a reason to be alone with them. If you don't have a good reason, grab a 3rd person.

91. Tara (not the other Tara) said the following at 7:19 AM on Mar 24:

We can't ignore that men and women are different and that we're wired to be attracted to each other. I think it's fine to be friends with the opposite sex but I think that deep, emotional connection is dangerous ground. Not that something necessarily will happen but I fail to see the reason to put yourself in that situation. And I'm not talking about NEVER being alone with someone. Sometimes circumstances will have that happen--it's happened to me--and it can be innocent and comfortable. But I think you need to question yourself if you're seeking out a deep bond with a married member of the opposite sex.

"I know that's stuff you go to your wife with, but when your wife and you don't agree on something how does going to a man who doesn't think, act or process like your wife, but thinks like you actually help you understand where your wife is coming from and how she sees things." (Matt #84)

You're not married, are you? My instant reaction to that is "Whoa! Danger, danger!" You do NOT bring arguments between you and your wife to another woman. I'd be careful even discussing it with a male friend or family member. Disagreements stay between you or a counsellor/mentor. An older, married male friend should have enough practical advice on how to handle such a situation should you need outside help.

I guess there are women out there who would be OK with their husbands airing their dirty laundry to a female friend but I have yet to read a marriage book (Christian or not) that recommends that.

Like I said, I have male friends though I'm married. I consider them an important part of me life. They're pretty much all married too. I guess I'm happy to keeping them as group-friends and when we do find ourselves alone (very rare) we talk about things like the latest movie we saw or what the group has planned to do next. We have deeper conversations, but in group settings.

92. SHP said the following at 8:07 AM on Mar 24:

@EM, #85:

I don't think the comparison with Aquila and Pricilla is relevant to the discussion at hand, which is what happens to your personal friendship with opposite sex members when you marry. They invited Apollos and others into THEIR home, as a COUPLE. It is never implied that Pricilla would have been friend with Apollos or Paul without her husband being in the picture as well. It is different if you are not married, however: Lydia did invite Paul and his companions in her house, and this was good.

As a married woman, I can tell you this: yes, I have male friends, and I did not stop interacting with them. But my husband also knows them, and most of the time we see them together, except when circumstances don't allow this, and then he knows what is happening.

About asking for counsel from other women: it can be good in principle, but it can be very sensitive as well, depending on the subject and how it is done. My husband has a very close relationship with his mother, which is great, but at the beginning of our marriage I was sometimes a bit annoyed that he was asking her opinion on a lot of things - I would have preferred that we just tried to solve the problem ourselves first... However, it was no intimate stuff, and mostly about practical things, so it was not a big deal. If it is more intimate/personal stuff, I would greatly prefer that he would go to a male friend/mentor than to a woman, and I would ask a woman friend. I would say that this is a "gut reaction" for me - I just don't want my husband to share things with other women that I think belong only to "us". I doesn't bother me the same if he talks intimately with men friends - maybe because I don't see that as a danger to our relationship. However, I must say that I did not understand this completely before I was married, so my thoughts/feelings evolved on this...

So I globally agree with you: we need interactions and encouragements from the whole body of Christ. I would just add that for some topics - for example problems that could arise between husband and wife - we need to be careful and discerning whom we discuss with. And if someone is married, then ideally the relationship/interaction should be with the couple (or at least, the spouse should be aware of it).

93. Keith said the following at 10:50 AM on Mar 24:

I agree that a ride in a car is a very very compromising situation and one that should be avoided at almost all costs. I remember one time I was with a platonic friend (I thought) in a car (before I was dating) and suddenly she started to kiss my neck.

If you do go out alone with a platonic friend, make sure it is in public so there is a level of accountability because then there is a chance someone who knows you will see you, and that helps to keep the relationship appropriate.

94. Timothy Stone said the following at 1:15 PM on Mar 24:

#74, if it is necessary to protect your marriage, then that is fine. I do think you should have made it clear to friends that they will be ejected once you get married. I myself would not want to be your friend. No offense, but I don't want to be anyone's friend who will cast me aside for the horror of being single.

I am really tired of the cavalier attitude of many married people. Only other couples are good for you all, seemingly. Us singles don't matter at all.

Admittedly, I am angry a lot. I went overseas to Iraq, served my country, and came back to find friends had moved on with their lives, and no one dares to have time for me. I try to make new friends, and they don't have time for me compared to other couples either. I'm tired of people in general. :(

95. EM said the following at 3:32 PM on Mar 24:

SHP #92

Good points. I only bring up Priscilla and Aquila in reference to the young woman who suggested that friendships with men were not worth maintaining at all after marriage.

I agree that "my/yours" friendships should become "ours" after marriage.

Honestly, it's going to be interesting to see how it goes for us with regard to confidences in difficult situations after marriage. My fiance is very close to his mother too and confides in her - which is great because she is a wise woman.

I could see myself being comfortable with him going to someone who knows me well for counsel if we were struggling at communicating (whether that's our male pastor or my long time female mentor) - though I'd prefer going together to a couple we trust. I do agree that this is sensitive issue though and could be something that would need to adjust at different seasons of the marriage.

96. Nathaniel said the following at 4:56 PM on Mar 24:

#94 (Tim)

Try getting together as a group? Most of my friends (including the married ones) prefer a group of at least 4-5 than just one on one or three people.

97. Bob said the following at 7:10 PM on Mar 24:

It would be nice if married guys would actually have time for their single guy friends. The few times I have seen one of my friends his wife is always there- I'dont mean just in the house I mean right there. Just because you're married to my friend doesn't mean you're my friend. Two people might "become one flesh" but they are still are (or should be) two individuals- I know a bunch of girls out there will argue with that saying "well now they are the same flesh that means their friends are now the the others friends too". Well I suppose if they are now one flesh then it should not be a problem if the guy wants to be a crossdresser and wear his wifes clothes because after all they are the same flesh. Is it one flesh, or a two headed monster?

98. Kit said the following at 8:30 PM on Mar 24:

Hey, Bob.

That's a little wierd, IMO, if it's your guy friends you're hanging with. Haha...I don't WANT to be around when the testosterone is that high and the discussion revolves around cars and guns. :) But seriously, I don't think most women have an issue with same-sex friendships. That's wierd, can you talk to her?

IT's only opposite sex ones I like to be around for.

99. BDB said the following at 9:18 PM on Mar 24:

Gosh Bob (#97).

Look, that's why married couples get together, and the guys gravitate to one end of the room, and the wives to the other end.

And, frankly, that might be part of what drives the couples-only socializing: they both want to do someting social, but they don't want to talk about the same stuff while they're there.

It is nice when someone's new spouse is willing to learn and enter into the other's activities. I know a guy whose daughter loves to go duck hunting. She will make some hunter and his buddies really happy someday. I'll bet they don't mind having her around - because she knows what she's doing.

But no, it's not reasonable to expect a married guy to still go out bar-hopping with his single buddies. And those who do end up in trouble - especially if those buddies are deliberately going out to meet women.

100. Samantha said the following at 11:35 PM on Mar 24:

100

Mrs_M (87) thank you for responding!

If your maturity is an indication I expect you'll be one of the couples that makes it. :)

Unfortunately that seems to be happening less and less these days. Perhaps this is because some people, even some people responding to this post, are putting their own wants ahead of the needs of their marriage.

They want opposite sex friends but don't understand (or don't care...?) that mariage needs to be protected from un-needed strain.

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