Written in the Jeans
by Matt Kaufman on 12/16/2009 at 9:17 AM
Think anyone wants to see men step up and reclaim some traditional values? The folks at Dockers do.
Just check out the "Man-ifesto" at their Web site, celebrating the days when "men wore the pants, and wore them well," when "women rarely had to open doors and little old ladies never crossed the street alone."
But somewhere along the way, the world decided it no longer needed men. Disco by disco, latte by foamy non-fat latte, men were stripped of their khakis and left stranded on the road between boyhood and androgyny. But today, there are questions our genderless society has no answers for. The world sits idly by as cities crumble, (and) children misbehave....We need heroes. We need grown-ups. We need men to put down the plastic fork, step away from the salad bar and untie the world form the tracks of complacency. It's time to get your hands dirty. It’s time to answer the call of manhood. It’s time to wear the pants.
What more can I add? Sure, they're being a touch tongue-in-cheek, but just a touch. And sure, they're mainly just trying to sell pants. But that means they think there's a market for this message. (Bet they're right.)
So good for you, Dockers. May you build this into a big ad campaign and make great big piles of money. And may your Man-ifesto spread far and wide across the land.
1. Kevin Gleeson said the following at 9:52 AM on Dec 16:
1
While the pants making people are on a get back to the good old days roll, would they please do away with making those way-too-low waistline down to the backside jeans for girls?
2. BDB said the following at 10:01 AM on Dec 16:
2
Make fun of Lattes all you want.
Don't Mess with the Mocha.
3. Jim said the following at 10:18 AM on Dec 16:
3
That's manly for a large corporation to state. I agree. It's also manly for men to sacrifice themselves as Christ did by serving their wives and family first.
4. Nicole (from Boston) said the following at 10:23 AM on Dec 16:
4
A friend took a picture of this and posted it on Facebook last night. I was so glad to see it.
5. rachel said the following at 10:36 AM on Dec 16:
5
This is great...I realize it's a sales tactic, but how rare for a major commercial company to be so bold in encouraging men to be men!
6. Sarah P. said the following at 10:46 AM on Dec 16:
6
Hehe, I applaud the message, but I think it is little different than a beer ad, really. They're saying, "Buy our pants, and you will be a man." They're fingering a need that's out there, sure, but in order to capitalize off of it.
7. Rachael said the following at 10:58 AM on Dec 16:
7
Oh mannican.
The comment I started typing is gone.
It's probably just as well.
Anyway, I realize that helping old ladies cross the street and opening doors for women are just examples, but we (including myself) should be careful when we attribute certain behaviors as being more 'holy' or 'what should be done'.
Some things are just common sense in our culture - or perhaps my local culture? - for either gender. Like, holding the door open for the person beind you whether you go in first or not.
But helping old ladies across the street, for example...I'm not sure how many of them would want the help. Probably I wouldn't, if I were "old", unless I were having some physical problems or if it were dark or icy or something.
And I should be careful with this attitude as well. Like, I like it when my husband drives when it's the two of us. And he usually does. But I may have said a negative comment(s) before when I may have driven or when I was possibly going to drive or something.
When the person doesn't fulfill the expectation, the others (including myself) shouldn't react sinfully.
And I think this can go for other things - not just 'gentlemanly' types of activities.
It can go for what one thinks Christians should or should not do (the grey areas or different conscience areas). It can go for how one views someone who drinks alcohol.
But yes, people should open doors, even if they go in first - at least in my location. (But if they don't, I should be okay if the door slams in my face :) ).
8. Colette said the following at 11:04 AM on Dec 16:
8
Haha! I love it! :D
9. Ted Slater said the following at 11:07 AM on Dec 16:
9
Of course it's good for men to "wear the pants."
It's also good for women to "wear the dresses," as it were.
Let's not get all excited about needling the men here. Such "men are sinful imbeciles and need to grow up" messages, while funny I guess, are getting stale if we don't acknowledge that women also have to grow up.
10. sarah said the following at 12:24 PM on Dec 16:
10
It may be a marketing tactic, but marketers do a lot of research to find out what will strike consumers.
The lines I find most insightful given our society were: "But today, there are questions our genderless society has no answers for. The world sits idly by as cities crumble, (and) children misbehave...." That's what happens when family structures fall apart...including the role of a man in the house.
11. twilley said the following at 12:40 PM on Dec 16:
11
Yes--hooray for manliness!! I think salads can be very manly--but you better have grown that sucker yourself.
But seriously--maybe a wee bit premature on that genderless society proclamation.
12. Nicole said the following at 12:41 PM on Dec 16:
12
I'm going to heartily agree with that first comment. The way-too low womens' jeans not only feel uncomfortable to wear, but they do not look attractive. I'm glad to see that a man has a problem with them, too.
Also, what is with the guys these days wearing the girl pants? Guys at my CHURCH wear them! I find it hugely disturbing. Guys, they make a clothing section for you. Please stop wearing our pants. We do not need to see every curve of your legs.
13. JVR from Denver said the following at 12:58 PM on Dec 16:
13
Ted,
If I'm ever driving south, I'm buying you lunch, homie. First time I've agreed with you, and you knocked it out of the park.
14. Sarah said the following at 1:11 PM on Dec 16:
14
see, I like this advertisement a lot for it's bold call for men to step up their act.
But I hate it because it continues awful double-standards and stereotypes. Since when is it "un-manly" to drink a latte? Is there something inherent in lattes that should restrict them to a single gender?
A couple Christmases ago, my brother bought me "The Daring Book for Girls" which included awesome topics such as "Every Girl's Toolbox" and instructions on how to change a tire. When I later saw it's inspiration, "The Dangerous Book for Boys," while browsing in a bookstore, I was deeply disappointed when I looked at the table of contents. I expected to see entries like, "Every Boy's Sewing Kit" and "How to Bake a Pie." But there was nothing close to this; I only saw stereotypically male activities.
Why have we made it socially acceptable for women to do "manly" things (declaring such women "empowered"), but when men do "womanly" things, we call them gay, metro, or emasculated (all having at least somewhat of a negative connotation)?
15. Lee said the following at 1:41 PM on Dec 16:
15
Wow, Boundless. I'm so disappointed right now. First of all, you left out part of the ad. Or maybe you took it out after the original post, judging from the comments. Why?
"The world sits idly by as cities crumble, children misbehave, and those little old ladies remain on one side of the street."
Second, are you really holding up a Dockers ad as exemplifying Christian masculinity? This ad is sexist, wrong, and insulting to women who consider themselves warriors for Christ, fully capable of getting their hands dirty, disciplining their children, helping little old ladies (and others in need), and being grown-ups. The clear implication of this ad is that men -- who wear Docker's khakis! -- are the only ones who should be doing those things.
Thirdly, the ad is stupid: how does drinking a non-fat latte or eating a salad or using a plastic fork say anything about anyone? Except maybe that they care about their health.
"The world decided it no longer needed men." When did this happen? Did it coincide with women getting the vote? For much of history, the world never even wanted women. Or minorities. (And much of the world still doesn't.) Remember that.
I'm ashamed that Boundless is buying into America's stereotypical, outdated ideas about gender, and scared that you're presenting them as Christian manhood. I realize that there is a need in our society to encourage Christian men as they strive to recognize true manliness and godliness, but you are doing a disservice to everyone by holding up this ad as an example of... well, anything good, actually.
I can guarantee I'll never buy another pair of Docker's pants.
16. EKB said the following at 2:09 PM on Dec 16:
16
The add definitely seems to be a backlash from the feminization of men in our culture, but I must say that most guys I know won't give up their lattes for anything!
The add brings an important issue to light, but on a deeper level, it seems to mix machismo and true masculinity (salads as unmanly? Don't tell my dad!) Probably because in the end, this is just marketing.
17. Regan said the following at 3:16 PM on Dec 16:
17
I completely and fully agree with Lee.
18. Alyene said the following at 3:22 PM on Dec 16:
18
I love it! I'd like to see what they would say on similar campaign for their women's line.
19. Courtney said the following at 3:25 PM on Dec 16:
19
Either this is a joke, or Dockers just became the pants worn by guys who are really insecure about their masculinity.
20. Ted Slater said the following at 3:42 PM on Dec 16:
20
Courtney (#19) -- please use your real e-mail address. We don't publish it, but we may want to contact you if we have questions about something you've written.
FWIW, I'm disinclined to publish comments from those who disregard our reasonable request to include a valid e-mail address....
21. Matt said the following at 3:42 PM on Dec 16:
21
All this talk of walking old ladies across the street makes me think of Andrew Osenga's song "All the Wrong Reasons".
"I walk old ladies down the street
cause I think they’ll give me money,
I make the ugly girls laugh
so the pretty ones will think I’m funny,
he’s got a hole in his pocket,
so I’ll be his friend today,
I tell her I love her,
cause I find that makes her stay,
tie me to the stake and burn me for this treason,
I do all the right things for all the wrong reasons"
Also, The Daring Book for Girls I would never buy for my sister but I'd give The Dangerous Book for Boys to all my male friends. The Daring Book for Girls just has the wrong messages for females in my opinion.
22. BDB said the following at 4:01 PM on Dec 16:
22
Lee (#15) wrote:
>>I can guarantee I'll never buy another pair of Docker's pants. <<
Is someone from Lee Jeans lurking?
23. Stephanie said the following at 5:12 PM on Dec 16:
23
# 15--Thank you for pointing out the stereotypes in the ad. I felt a little disturbed by the message until I realized the quote was advertising and not meant to be taken too seriously. Still, it's good to take a second look and realize that men aren't the only ones who can be grown-ups and heroes.
24. kaj said the following at 5:18 PM on Dec 16:
24
Men can eat salads, too!
I know a guy who loves his meat, but he orders a salad in place of the fries, probably because it's healthier (although, then he slathers it in ranch dressing, which is high in fat anyhow, but I did spare him on that).
25. Peter said the following at 6:25 PM on Dec 16:
25
Following the World Trade Centre attack, Peggy Noonan wrote that there was a new appreciation of men...
"I am speaking of masculine men, men who push things and pull things and haul things and build things, men who charge up the stairs in a hundred pounds of gear and tell everyone else where to go to be safe. Men who are welders, who do construction, men who are cops and firemen. They are all of them, one way or another, the men who put the fire out, the men who are digging the rubble out, and the men who will build whatever takes its place."
"Why? Well, manliness wins wars. Strength and guts plus brains and spirit wins wars. But also, you know what follows manliness? The gentleman. The return of manliness will bring a return of gentlemanliness, for a simple reason: masculine men are almost by definition gentlemen. Example: If you're a woman and you go to a faculty meeting at an Ivy League University you'll have to fight with a male intellectual for a chair, but I assure you that if you go to a Knights of Columbus Hall, the men inside (cops, firemen, insurance agents) will rise to offer you a seat. Because they are manly men, and gentlemen.
It is hard to be a man. I am certain of it; to be a man in this world is not easy. I know you are thinking, But it's not easy to be a woman, and you are so right. But women get to complain and make others feel bad about their plight. Men have to suck it up. Good men suck it up and remain good-natured, constructive and helpful; less-good men become the kind of men who are spoofed on "The Man Show"--babe-watching, dope-smoking nihilists. (Nihilism is not manly, it is the last refuge of sissies.)"
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=95001309
It's nice to be appreciated...... Peter
26. Kelly-1 said the following at 6:42 PM on Dec 16:
26
Speaking of gentlemanly behaviour....
A man ~12 years older than me walks me to my car after work social events at night. We're both single. I feel a little uncomfortable about it (by accepting his gentlemanly behaviour, am I subtly opening the door for courtship?) but at the same time, it's a lovely gesture. It's so very sweet of him to do so.
What are your thoughts?
27. Susan said the following at 8:38 PM on Dec 16:
27
I grew up around men who are men. They open doors, walk on the outside of the sidewalk, take their hats of indoors, stand when a lady enters the room etc. etc. I could go on, but I will spare you. Of course I as a woman, am capable of opening my own door etc., but I believe that common courtesies such as that that men can extend are wonderful. And I don't think that the point of this post is to say that the Dockers ad exemplifies Christian masculinity. It's just plain old common decency. I agree with this post. The way society is going I am constantly left wondering where all of the common decency is. And yes, where all of the MEN are. I know they are out there, they just seem to be far and few between. Thank you for the post Matt!
I know that all of the feminists out there will hate me for this, but there is something to be said for a man who will sweep in and kill that spider on the wall, who will open that jar you've been trying to open for the last 15 minutes and who will at least attempt to fix your car.
28. Gordon said the following at 8:49 PM on Dec 16:
28
Lee #15 wrote:
>>"The world decided it no longer needed men." When did this happen? Did it coincide with women getting the vote? For much of history, the world never even wanted women. Or minorities. (And much of the world still doesn't.) Remember that.<<
Interesting thoughts Lee. I would say it happened when American sitcoms started portraying men as bubbling idiots...closer to that time frame.
Also, if history never wanted women...we wouldn't be here discussing this.
All I ask is that you contain the emotions.
Is the ad correct? Not completely.
Is the ad trying to sell something? Yes, it is an ad!
If you are a latte drinking, salad eating, minority man...I am sorry if the ad offended you. I do like lattes, I do eat salad...
Dockers are great pants. I am glad some advertising is striving to encourage men to be men. That is all I take from this ad.
29. Leah said the following at 9:55 PM on Dec 16:
29
Sarah (14) - I appreciate your sentiment, but I think you missed the point of "The Dangerous Book for Boys". The book is aimed at teaching boys how to do what are stereotypically 'male' activities. That is the whole point. The original authors are brothers I believe, and realised they'd grown up in this current society and, somewhere in their education, had not learned how to do things that were stereotypically male. So they wrote a book that would teach other boys how to do those things. I would congratulate them, too.
I would disagree with your suggestion that when men do something 'feminine' they get called metro or gay or emasculated. These days it's cool for men to be allowed to do female things, and vice versa. You get criticised if you object to men doing traditionally female things.
I think that's what the original authors saw in their education. They had learnt all these other things, but in society's effort to make sure that boys are not pigeon-holed into stereotypically male activities, it has completely omitted teaching boys those very activities. How many boys these days do not know how to tie a decent knot, how to change a tire, how to use the stars to navigate, etc? Too many.
The consecutive books have veered away from that original goal a bit, but that was the original intention of the original book. This probably owes to the fact they are written by different people.
(I can imagine that the female authors of "The Daring Book for Girls" read the boys' book and said "hey, boys aren't the only ones who can do that stuff! Girls can do it too! Let's write a book about this stuff for girls!")
30. Leah said the following at 9:57 PM on Dec 16:
30
Btw, the Girls' book isn't just about doing traditionally boy stuff. It includes things like dying your hair with kool-aid, playing lacrosse and riding horses - things probably seen as girly, even if boys can legitimately do them too.
31. Caroline said the following at 10:01 PM on Dec 16:
31
Thank you, Lee (#15). You expressed my exact feelings of annoyance at *all* the Christian blogs holding up an ad campaign as a delightful return to classical gender roles. Don't get me started on the straw man argument in this ad...
My father is the godliest man I know; he's a Naval officer, a triathlete, a loving father and husband. He also enjoys eating salad, the occasional latte, and yes, I've seen him eat with a plastic fork. Does that make him less of a strong, successful man? I think not. Let's not fall over ourselves to praise a secular company because they talk about embracing machismo (which is simply a cheap, less-worthwhile version of virtuous masculinity).
32. Leah said the following at 10:05 PM on Dec 16:
32
Lee (15) - where did the post say anything about Dockers exemplifying CHRISTIAN masculinity? It was just congratulating them for encouraging masculinity at all.
Also, the (western) world decided it didn't need men NOT when women got the vote, but when it started frowning at men for daring to open a door for a woman or carry something heavy for her. It was when women started saying to men "don't do that; go away; I don't need your help". Probably back in the 80s I believe, despite the fact I was only born in the late 80s.
The ad does not suggest that men should be the ONLY ones doing those things, or that women can't. Just that men SHOULD do those things.
Of course the ad is tongue-in-cheek. Of course they're not saying you're not a man if you eat salad. They're just using them as exaggerated examples. Good advertising always exaggerates - it gets the message across faster.
33. endlessnights said the following at 12:33 AM on Dec 17:
33
BRILLIANT...Aboslutely BRILLIANT..and so true, any woman that disagrees needs to read Wild At Heart.
We do need men to be MEN and wear the pants to lead and to inspire.
I also just love it as I am a graphic designer it rocks, lol.
34. Dana said the following at 6:25 AM on Dec 17:
34
Lee (#15)...
Thank you! I was getting nervous that none of the readership would see what was problematic about this ad...and about Boundless applauding it!
The only thing more ridiculous than the ad itself is a bunch of Christians embracing it.
Side note: Dockers also makes khakis for women. How are they going to explain that?
35. Ashley :) said the following at 7:25 AM on Dec 17:
35
I think people just need to calm down. Just because boundless is advocating manhood and being manly doesn't mean they are hating on women getting their hands dirty. Honestly, why does everyone take everything so personally instead of just reading it for face value? I think it's awesome that boundless encourages men to be manly and girls to be girlie. God made us that way... let's embrace it! :)
36. Jane said the following at 9:11 AM on Dec 17:
36
Matt (#21), what are the wrong messages for females that the Daring Book for Girls has?
37. pass the ammunition said the following at 9:53 AM on Dec 17:
37
I second (or third?) Lee's comment.
38. Lisa Anderson said the following at 10:10 AM on Dec 17:
38
Ok, you naysayers are stressing me out. Including Ted, whom I'm going to bop on the head next time I see him. Fo sho.
Don't we Boundless-ites, of all people, already know that we need to get back to a healthy understanding of biblical masculinity and femininity? And don't we have a pretty good idea of what that looks like? Good grief, we've seen enough posts and articles on it. And if you need more, read John Piper for two seconds and you'll get the scoop.
Let's not play dumb and act all put-out by this campaign. I love to see a woman help an old lady across the street. And girls look great in dresses. But that's not the point. Let Dockers give men a shout. They're not writing a book on gender roles; they're selling pants. It's not a put-down...it's a rallying cry. And from what I've heard from my male friends, they love it.
I'm wearing a dress today, by the way. But maybe I'll eat a steak for lunch.
39. Ted Slater said the following at 11:07 AM on Dec 17:
39
See, I'm confused. Boundless writer Matt Kaufman likes this advertisement. Boundless editor Ted Slater doesn't like this advertisement (and I said so in comment #9).
And yet there's this thought that Focus on the Family has partnered with Dockers and is fully supportive of their every effort.
Well, I, for one, am not. I think it's simply a clever attempt by the Dockers ad team to increase sales. And that's fine.
The thing is, I sense an undertone in the ad that is patronizing and condescending toward men. And I sense in some women a glee that men are being rebuked through this ad: "Yeah, Dockers! You go after those milquetoast men!" I think that's weak, unless women receive a similar rebuke for their role in getting us to where we are.
That said, this is a light-hearted topic, one about which even Boundless team members disagree. So let's not get all in a huff about how "ashamed" and "disappointed" you are.
40. BDB said the following at 11:39 AM on Dec 17:
40
Alas, this isn't going to save Dockers. Unfortunately for the brand, they decided to outsource production offshore. Quality dropped through the floor. By that I mean seam ripping the first time they are worn. That drop in quality made a lot of us move on to other manufacturers for those "business casual" days.
41. Ted Slater said the following at 11:47 AM on Dec 17:
41
Kelly-1 (#26) -- He's 12 years older than you? I personally don't find anything necessary wrong with that. After all, I am 12 years older than my wife. :-)
42. BDB said the following at 11:48 AM on Dec 17:
42
Kelly-1 (#26) wrote:
>> I feel a little uncomfortable about it (by accepting his gentlemanly behaviour, am I subtly opening the door for courtship?) <<
Ha Ha!
A couple of weeks ago, at a business event, the two other people from my organization were women, one older than me and one younger. It wrapped up pretty late and it was quite dark. The older woman asked me to walk the younger woman to her car.
Before I had time to react, the younger woman immediately refused. It was kind of interesting to watch the generational thing play out.
Of course, I already knew the younger woman had a boyfriend who was a cop (and she herself has a military background), but I'm still not entirely sure what happened in that little exchange and how much of it was just a difference in generational expectations.
That said, I think Kelly should pray about it before closing the door.
43. Tami said the following at 11:59 AM on Dec 17:
43
Kelly-1: is the gentleman only offering his walking-to-the-car services, or is his conversation indicating he wants more?
If so, unless and until he outright states he's looking for more, or he suddenly starts demonstrating he's a creep... I would accept his gift of assistance for what it is.
I suppose we could sit here and debate whether or not men "really" do things "just to be nice," or if we always have to assume there's some ulterior motive... but as for me, going only by what you said, I just think he's doing a nice thing -- perhaps with romantic intentions, or with brotherly ones. But perhaps I'm naive. :)
44. Matt said the following at 12:46 PM on Dec 17:
44
Jane (#36): I don't remember the particulars anymore. I specifically remember comparing the advice they gave girls about boys compared to the advice for boys about girls that was in The Dangerous Book for Boys. But, that was a couple years ago that I browsed through it at a book store.
45. Brittany said the following at 2:19 PM on Dec 17:
45
This post makes me think about a movie I recently watched called "Love Comes Softly" which I viewed with a majority of the women in my church. I believe that movie demonstrates the beauty of gender roles. The man is humble, caring, strong, level-headed, etc. and the woman is strong, resourceful, loving, appreciative, etc.
Things were much easier before life became so convenient for all of us. Men HAD to be men and women HAD to be women...someone had to raise the children and someone had to take care of the estate.
Now, rather than just living or surviving, we all sit around analyzing every aspect of life to the extreme so that we become depressed, paranoid, self-centered and cynical. I wish I had been born in a simpler time. :)
I do like the ad. I used to criticize men for opening doors for me - how counterproductive was that?! Men were showing me respect and I was spitting in their faces? Good thing I had some mature guidance that helped me realize that I had a responsibility to LET men take their places as men.
I do feel that men are copping-out when it comes to masculinity. Because of women you stopped acting like men? Silly...God put men in charge and commanded that women submit to them. I have a personal responsibility to act like a lady regardless of how men act.
Ted, as a woman I feel like men on Boundless (readers, not staff) talk a lot about how women have ruined things or damaged society...when you say "role for getting us where we are", what do you mean specifically? Is there a post I can refer to?
46. Ted Slater said the following at 3:06 PM on Dec 17:
46
Brittany (comment #45): Here you go.
The point is that we mustn't point fingers at just *one* of the sexes: Both men *and* women are guilty of sin, guilty of promoting faulty gender roles, guilty of confounding relationships. We've all been part of the problem, and we can all be part of the solution.
A woman really has no standing to point at this ad and declare how men have failed her, unless she acknowledges that she too may have contributed to the problem.
FWIW, we're an equal opportunity offender. We don't just talk "about how women have ruined things or damaged society." Indeed, we get more complaints that we disproportionately blame men.
47. Trevor Dolby said the following at 3:17 PM on Dec 17:
47
Kelly-1 (26): I have regularly walked women more (and less) than 12 years younger than me to cars, doors, etc, without having an ulterior motive. My guess is if he's interested in you, then he'll make it apparent; unless or until that happens, I wouldn't worry about it.
It might be worth mentioning him doing this to others, though, as a way of building him up in the eyes of others. That way, other guys will realise that it's okay to do this, and women will know there are still a few of us left who try to behave as gentlemen :)
48. em said the following at 3:31 PM on Dec 17:
48
Sarah # 14. Ditto. You said it, girl. I'm all for men being men but the extrabiblical stereotyping is absurd, silly and, worse, degrading to the "outliers" of both sexes.
and, Leah #29 - you might be right about Hollywood culture and elite urban culture (where men doing stereotypically feminine things is accepted) but in evangelical Christianity and many parts of the American bible belt, Sarah is still right that this detrimental double standard exists. Leah, I also agree that it is silly for a woman to think her dignity offended if a man offers to help her in some way (like holding a door) and that does communicate a selfish message.
That said, if Dockers wants to do this to sell pants, that's great. And if some other company wants to use a girl-power symbol like Rosie the Riveter to sell pants, that's cool too.
I'm a woman, not a girly girl. I have nothing against girly girls but I'm not one and nothing in the Bible says I have to faint at the sight of blood and adore the color pink.
I appreciate & respect strong (but not macho) men, especially strong men who appreciate and respect strong women! shout out to my super fiancee!
49. Kelly-1 said the following at 5:23 PM on Dec 17:
49
Reflecting a little more, I'm now quite sad that I automatically assume every man (who is single) has an ulterior motive rather than being nice. It's that whole thought process along the lines of, "If he buys dinner for me, I owe him."
I think most girls have been 'trained' to think this way in recent years. :(
Oh, and the walk-me-to-the-car man is not a Christian, hence not a prospect.
50. Peter said the following at 6:42 PM on Dec 17:
50
Stereotypes are not always wrong.
I spent yesterday afternoon at this fire. It is typical of such things and such a community, that 95% of the firefighters are men. Sometimes old men. Sometimes overweight menb. But men.
Go to the grain silos at harvest time, and again it will be almost exclusivly men who are engaged in the hot, dusty and very long hours involved in getting in the harvest.
Right now, we are shearing. Again, all men.
I'm not saying that no woman can do such physically demanding and uncomfortable work (although I'd like to know how many of the ladies on this forum could join me in stacking 450 pound bales of wool), but the difference is obvious. Men DO it, while women CHOOSE not to.
51. Esther said the following at 7:09 PM on Dec 17:
51
I think that if we're going to get on the subject of lost skills, it is the women who will come up the most wanting. Honestly, ladies, how many of us can:
bake bread from scratch
use a pattern and sew clothing
can fruits and vegetables
make a quilt
darn socks
knit a sweater
make a pie from scratch
know medicinal values of plants
pluck a chicken
grow a garden (and live off of it!)
make soap
make butter
milk a cow
slaughter/process a cow/pig
These are a small sample of the things that my grandmothers knew how to do. I've learned some (and so my friends call me "Amish") but most of these one-time basic skills are pretty much lost. No, we may not need to know how to make soap, but I'm shocked by the number of my friends who have never baked bread or can't follow a simple recipe. I think we've been so eager to take on the "man's world" that many women have never had the opportunity to learn that things that aren't taught in school (cooking, cleaning, decorating, budgeting, running a home) and end up struggling a lot when they are married or living on their own.
52. Sarah said the following at 9:45 PM on Dec 17:
52
Leah (#29/30)- you said "These days it's cool for men to be allowed to do female things, and vice versa. You get criticized if you object to men doing traditionally female things." Actually, that has not been my experience, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that for now.
Also, you mention "the original intention of the original book." Since I was introduced to the girl's version first, I suppose that I was approaching the two books backwards, that is, viewing the first in light of the second rather than vice versa. However, while I may have missed the point of the boy's version, I think the contrast still accurately illustrates my original/main point.
Basically, I just get frustrated when innately genderless things (sports, theatre, dance, food) are used to indicate someone's level of masculinity/femininity. I don't think this is the right approach to defining/assessing masculinity/femininity, and especially not Biblical masculinity/femininity (if such a distinction does/should exist).
So again, I realize this is just an ad, and I do appreciate it's call for men to step up. I just can't be enthusiastic about that aspect of it without addressing what I see as subtle, but significant problems
53. Peter said the following at 5:16 AM on Dec 18:
53
I'm with those who are bemused at all this politically-correct frothing-at-the-mouth over stereotypes.
Firstly - masculinity and femininity are about the DISTINGUISHING characteristics between males and females, but apart from the presence or absence of a Y-chromasome, most of them are tendencies, rather than absolutes. Men *tend* to be larger, more robust, have more aggressive energy and different emotional needs. It is now accepted that we are hard-wired this way from birth. It isn't wrong to be outside the norms in any of these areas, but neither is it wrong to point out there *are* such norms.
Secondly - People are confusing symptoms with causes. A liking for low-fat lattes isn't unmasculine in itself, but a fetish for such things indicates that the drinker does not work or play hard enough to burn off the calories, and such lack of energy *is* outside the masculine norm.
Regards.... Peter
54. Loris said the following at 9:46 AM on Dec 18:
54
I have never understood the mindset that says that a man opening a door for me is patronizing. Of course I can open it myself. But if someone wants to be polite, I should let him, and thank him graciously. Conversely, if I'm near a door and a man with an armload of equipment and papers (happens all the time at work) comes up to it, I'll open it for him. I'm just trying to be friendly and helpful and when he opens it for me, so is he.
I learned a lesson about accepting manly behaviors when I was 16. My father's cousin was visiting, and I was leaving to go gas up the car before a cross-town drive. Cousin ____ insisted on going with me. This man is middle-aged, timid, short, and slight. I took my mother aside and pointed those things out, adding that I knew the area well and it was perfectly safe, and since I was 5 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier than dad's cousin, I didn't think I needed the escort. Mom just smiled and said she knew I didn't, but that Cousin _____ needed to learn his efforts were appreciated, and I needed to learn to accept a gentlemanly gesture when it was offered, even from someone unlikely.
55. Kathleen said the following at 4:26 PM on Dec 18:
55
"Either this is a joke, or Dockers just became the pants worn by guys who are really insecure about their masculinity."
-----------------------
Best comment in the whole thread.
Personally, I think Dockers has delivered a clever satire of the over-the-top preoccupation of certain men about being "Manly" (said with a funny Dudly Do-right accent) enough. I mean, seriously, there's a "wrong" kind of latte? Men aren't allowed to eat salads or use plastic? Trust me, guys, this kind of insecurity is about as appealing as wearing a backwards baseball cap.
Funny how the same folks who like to accuse everyone else of being PC are the ones with such narrow definitions about what's the politically correct fork or latte, or lunchtime choice for men.
I'm guessing that maybe half the guys who see this ad recognize it as satire; the other half don't (the ones saying to themselves "Yeah, once I git me some Dockers I'll be more manly!"). Dockers has a win-win.
56. BDB said the following at 4:55 PM on Dec 18:
56
Kelly-1 (#49) wrote:
>>It's that whole thought process along the lines of, "If he buys dinner for me, I owe him."
I think most girls have been 'trained' to think this way in recent years. :( <<
See, now, I completely forget that people think that way.
57. BDB said the following at 5:08 PM on Dec 18:
57
Peter (#50) - you have to warn us before linking to an article that's full of metric!
58. Lia said the following at 10:32 AM on Dec 19:
58
Esther (51):
I can do a LOT of the things on that list-- I can spin, knit, crochet, sew, cook, bake, clean-- and I still think that gender roles are silly. I like doing these things because they make me happy, not because I'm a woman.
59. Peter said the following at 4:33 PM on Dec 19:
59
I have to say that people wishing to frame this discussion in terms of what men and women are *allowed* to do are only demonstrating how poorly they understand the issues.
Masculinity is not even slightly about a set of rules and fashion-statements. It is about people following their natural inclinations, and NOT being constrained by the kind of social and feminist expectations that have devalued masculine energy, initiative, independence and practicality.
The appeal to masculinity is not an appeal to fashion, but to the way that God made us.
BDB (#57)
I apologise for our idiot government's decision to measure in French rather that English. Done by one of the worst governments in our history, and a response to the cultural cringe of the trendy chardonnay set.
Rule-of-thumb conversion is 2.5acre = 1 hectare. 60MPH = 100KPH and 38 Celcius = 100 Fahrenheit
60. Trevor Dolby said the following at 4:37 PM on Dec 19:
60
Kelly-1 (49): I tend not to walk girls to their door if I've taken them out to dinner to avoid giving the impression that they 'owe me'. (I make sure they're safe inside before driving off, of course).
Also, I fear that (for unknown reasons) non-Christians may be more likely to understand how men and women work (and work differently) than Christians :( Some films I've seen (Hollywood stuff) show much greater insight than most of the Christian books I've read! Very worrying from an evangelistic perspective . . .
61. Sarah J. said the following at 5:53 PM on Dec 20:
61
I knew of a woman who rejected a man for not opening a door for her. She's an Indian who was raised in America and he was raised in India, so cultural differences abound in their definition of what it means to be a man. And to her, not being a gentleman was a deal-breaker. Regardless of culture or marital prospects, if a man learns to be courteous to a variety of people (i.e.: male, female, young, old, and different cultures/ethnicities, etc.), it speaks volumes of his character. Likewise, a woman should also strive to be this way. It certainly can't hurt when seeking a wife or husband.
For Dana (#34): I highly doubt that Boundless is "applauding" this ad as is, but more for the manly ideals it is currently presenting to the world. In light of the girly-men clothes (e.g., v-neck shirts and skinny jeans), it's interesting to note how slightly counter-cultural it is for the moment even if they are indulging in some stereotypes. And you're right, Dockers do make khakis for women--and they look nice too! ;) Maybe they should come out with a Woman-ifesto...with khaki skirt ads!
For Kelly-1 (#49): Don't be creeped out! Have you tried walking to your car with a fellow female coworker, or have one join you when your gentleman escorts you? Just tell him thanks, and let the other ladies/coworkers know how swell he is!
62. Loris said the following at 9:48 AM on Dec 21:
62
Esther #51, I can do a lot of those things, too. It's easy to learn to cook from scratch when one grows up in an area where processed foods are stale and marked up three times by the time they arrive from the States. And one must sew and mend if one if of Dutch extraction living in Asia. Store-bought clothing simply won't fit.
So when the zombie apocalypse happens, I'll have useful skills, haha.
63. V.V. said the following at 1:18 PM on Dec 21:
63
Geez, all this over a pair of Pantalones! (Spanish word for pants).
I like the ad. It's funny, and though tongue in cheek, makes some good points.
(Oh, and, Dockers also makes pants for women, FWIW to the discussion. lol)
What if this was an ad for Biblical times? "Hey men...give out those loaves and fish, cast your nets, and wear that ROBE!"