Unfortunate Lessons Girls Learn From Twilight

Unfortunate Lessons Girls Learn From Twilight
by Heather Koerner on 12/15/2009 at 9:57 AM

Let's put my monster disclaimer right here at the top. I have not read Twilight. Not any of the series. Not seen any of the movies. The full extent of my Twilight knowledge was when I went and saw Julie and Julia. As I settled down into my seat with my blissful popcorn-and-M & M's-combo, the previews began. And went on and on. Suddenly, a low squeal began in the theater. It built to a high-pitched roar as the preview of, you guessed it, Twilight began.

Two thoughts entered my mind. One, I wonder if I just experienced what it was like to be at an early Elvis concert. Two, I had no idea there were that many teenage girls watching Julie and Julia. Then, a third thought ... maybe there weren't that many teenage girls watching Julie and Julia. Hmmm ...

Still, having existed in this culture, I seem to have gleaned some idea of the basic plot. Nice girl. Vampire boy. Love, but he knows he's bad for her. Tension: Should they be together or not? How can love be wrong? Other vampires causing havoc. If I'm wrong, let me know.

So, I was interested to see this blog about the "Top 20 Unfortunate Lessons Girls Learn From Twilight." The author seems to be a little frustrated with some women's enthusiasm for the books and movies:

"Whenever a woman criticizes a man’s lust, aggression, shallowness or any other lesser angel of his personality, the quick-witted fellow can point to the millions of women addicted to the base, insipid, bad-boy-worshiping, misogynist syrup so many female viewers of all ages knelt to..."

Now, here at Boundless, we all do our best to encourage the opposite sex. So, I'm not here to word-thrash my fellow females and I know none of our gentlemen readers will want to either. And I'm not even that concerned with bashing Twilight.

Rather, reading this list of "unfortunate lessons," was a good mirror to me of some of the romantic drivel I've consumed over my lifetime. I saw pretty clearly how the lessons many of these movies teach are in such stark contrast to what the Bible says -- and what I've experienced in my own life and marriage -- to be solid ways to pursue a biblical relationship.

Here were some of my faves from the list:

#1: If a boy is aloof, stand-offish, ignores you or is just plain rude, it is because he is secretly in love with you — and you are the point of his existence.
#4: If a boy tells you to stay away from him because he is dangerous and may even kill you, he must be the love of your life. You should stay with him since he will keep you safe forever.
#8: Boys who leave you always come back.
#9: Because they come back, you should hold out, waiting for them for months, even when completely acceptable and less-abusive alternative males present themselves.
#12: Lying to your parents is fine. Lying to your parents while you run away to save your suicidal boyfriend is an extremely good idea that shows your strength and maturity. Also, it is what you must do.
#15: Men can be changed for the better if you sacrifice everything you are and devote yourself to their need for change.

Like I said, I could name several movies besides Twilight where I nodded enthusiastically at these same lies. But what a difference, huh, from our Girl's Guide to Marrying Well where we talk about Purity, Intentionality, Christian Compatibility and Community? Methinks, in the world outside of cinema, best to go with the latter advice.

HT: Randy Alcorn

Random thought: Girl's Guides as Christmas gifts! Pass the link along!

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Comments

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1. Rebekah in SoCal said the following at 10:42 AM on Dec 15:

My roommate and I just had a conversation about all of the unfortunate relationship advice we've learned from fairytale romances, chick flicks, and even clean, relatively harmless romance novels.

When I was in my late teens I finally realized that I wouldn't marry prince charming. I am constantly questioning whether or not my expectations are realistic or require a dash of "Disney magic".

Personally, my heart is never so discontent as after I've read a Christian novel featuring a romance.

2. Ronnica said the following at 11:26 AM on Dec 15:

So good. What a lesson that just because something is "clean" (sans-sex) doesn't mean that it's good and healthy.

Having read the first 2 books, I feel better prepared when my pre-teens at church start gushing about them!

3. Amy said the following at 11:40 AM on Dec 15:

I have been a regular Boundless reader for awhile now, but rarely comment. I am not very good with words or expressing myself, but I want to add my 2 cents.

I am a married 26 yr old getting my masters in finance and I have read and thoroughly enjoyed all 4 Twilight books. My husband, most of my female friends, sisters, and my mother and mother in law have all read and enjoyed the books as well. Even my husband (a dentist and Navy officer) liked Twilight! I am disappointed that Boundless has let a writer review and criticize Twilight without having read the books.

The blog writer that the article quotes makes some valid points, but there are also GOOD aspects to the books that would be interesting to discuss. However I must say that the obsession that some girls (and grown women!) have for the books/characters/actors is far from healthy. I just wish this article had been written by someone who had taken the time to actually read the books first.

4. elena said the following at 11:47 AM on Dec 15:

Heather, thanks for these thoughts on the relationship lies we ladies enjoy reading/watching. We need this reminder to consider what we are filling our minds with. However, I think your argument could be much stronger if you used examples drawn from your own reading/watching experience to illustrate these lies and their effect on us. Both you and the article you quote make allegations without backing them up with specific examples from the film. Allowing us to see the evidence supporting your argument encourages us to give your point the respect it deserves.

5. Read said the following at 11:54 AM on Dec 15:

I'm sorry, I have nothing to contribute to this conversation other than to laugh out loud at "#1: If a boy is aloof, stand-offish, ignores you or is just plain rude, it is because he is secretly in love with you — and you are the point of his existence." I mean seriously? Girls believe that?!

6. BDB said the following at 12:04 PM on Dec 15:

I won't include the link, but there's a facebook group named, "Twilight gives me unrealistic expectations about men."

7. LizH said the following at 1:11 PM on Dec 15:

I thought about giving Girl's Guides as Christmas gifts. Are there printed versions of the guides available?

8. Heather Koerner said the following at 2:06 PM on Dec 15:

Elena (#4),

Good encouragement! Alas, most of my personal examples come from those old-time days of John Hughes ... which, I'm afraid, would make most of our readers say, "Duckie? What is she talking about?"

;)

9. Vanessa said the following at 2:26 PM on Dec 15:

What cracks me up most about #1 is that it is in direct contrast to "He's Just Not That Into You" which says (in a nutshell) if he's not beating down your door, he doesn't care.

Does anyone else see a really humorous pattern here? People are swayed by marketing...and media.

10. EKB said the following at 2:38 PM on Dec 15:

I am a woman but I find this series creepy and revolting, anything but romantic. Then again, maybe I am just weird, I have never read romance books and I have zero desire to.

11. RB said the following at 2:40 PM on Dec 15:

As a 30 year old, married woman who has read all 4 Twilight books I actually think the story line is very much in line with what is promoted here at Boundless, specifically two things that you mentioned "Purity and Intentionality". While the movies differ greatly from the books, if you would have taken time to read the novels you would find that the main character Edward (the vampire) insists that he and his girlfriend Bella wait to have sex until they are married because he wants to preserve her virtue. He mentions that he is from another time (since his is a vampire he is hundreds of years old) and this was normal then. Additionally there are several references to him wanting to wait to do much of anything with her (kissing etc) because he doesn't want to "awaken the beast" inside him so to speak. I think this is a very good example of what happens to real people who take things to far prior to marriage - it is very hard to stop. Finally (SPOILER) in the 4th book the two main characters get married and do consumate their relationship (everything is left to the imagination). After reading that chapter I really felt that the author fully captured how saving that special moment for only your husband is so absolutely wonderful! In fact, contrary to other posters, I would use these books as another way to encourage my children to remain sexually pure until marriage. Again, the movies differ vastly from the book and while I'm sure it's easy to judge the books based on what you hear in the media, it's much better to read them for yourself before having an opinion.

12. Olivia said the following at 2:49 PM on Dec 15:

I've never read the Twilight books although I've seen the first movie. I have read numerous articles on both sides of whether Christians should read or not read (edification vs. fiction, romance vs. lust, et al). As a leader in my church, I get a little concerned about those who are using these characters, especially the male ones (team Edward vs. team Jacob) in order to fulfill some kind of longing for intimacy, whether it be for Christ or for a man.

I personally am over the obsession with werewolves and vampires in t.v., movies and books, however there's something about those "alpha males" that attract women whether it be their protectiveness (even against themselves), their connection to a woman (and in these times when men are seen a wanders this is very appealing). Women become very invested in these characters because there is excitement, a sense of loss only to have love conquer all, physical and emotional connections. It appeals to a woman's desire to be loved, completely, utterly, unconditionally.

But as pointed out, it's fiction, just like any other movie or book. I find myself in this pitfall of watching romantic movies to get my 2 hours injection of romance when I'm feeling lonely and very single. I've learned to become more conscientious of this just as women have to evaluate their motives when reading the Twilight series or any other series for that matter.

Men are full of faults, just as women are and it takes a lot of intentionality and enthusiasm to make any relationship work. Many of us who are in relationships or seeking relationships are past the high school age and must contend with paying bills, working full time, going to school, raising children, etc.

I would much rather have a Song of Solomon romance than a Twilight romance =)

13. Courtney said the following at 2:55 PM on Dec 15:

Sorry, maybe it's because I live in the SF bay area, but I just haven't seen this Twilight obsession. (And, by obsession, I'm counting those who make it the anchor of their attention, whether pro or con). Seems like it appeals to women/girls who are passive, live vicariously, and are boy crazy, with not much more ambition than to get married.

14. Nicole said the following at 3:29 PM on Dec 15:

I'm a 21-year-old and I have read the Twilight books (I think they're just ok), and am a "hopeless romantic" in general (I love clean romance novels and movies).

The main common thread, I think, between all of these misleading romance stories is that if a man loves you, he will be slave-ishly devoted to you, and do wild and ridiculous things to prove this love, and you won't have to do anything at all, because he'll be so in love with you that he'll do whatever it takes to get you.

And, I am ashamed to admit, but I have to - I have longed for such a man. But, I know that this is not the way a relationship can or should ever work. God intended for men and women to be equal partners to each other, and it it's silly and unfair to expect this of men (and, if we actually got it, would probably be creeped out).

I like that even though the title mentions Twilight (which is good, as it is an extremely popular story right now), the article isn't just about Twilight, but all movies and books that give women ridiculous and unrealistic and unhealthy expectations of men.

Wow, what a long comment! Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention. I will have to remind myself in the future the kind of men God wants for us, and the kind of relationships we should have with these men. :)

15. Julie (Ginger) said the following at 3:30 PM on Dec 15:

Twilight is hilariously mockable - I tried to read the first book and the writing/plot/characterization was so laughable I could not finish reading it! and I love the top 20 list both in relation to the book/movie and to women, myself included, inventing "romance" rules from chick flick consumption.

16. jack said the following at 3:38 PM on Dec 15:

"Personally, my heart is never so discontent as after I've read a Christian novel featuring a romance."

Like alcohol and drugs, and certain other publications popular among men, participating in artificial experiences can cause a lot of harm.

Here's a humorous take on Twilight, and the double standard of male and female attraction:

http://verydemotivational.com/2009/12/01/truth/

If I saw my wife screaming over a fictitous 17 year old vampire, I would probaby just go home a wait for her to serve me the divorce papers.

17. Heather Koerner said the following at 4:00 PM on Dec 15:

RB (#11):

Here's a blog which speaks to your point: "The Abstinent Vampire Attraction."

18. Cat said the following at 4:11 PM on Dec 15:

I recently wrote my final thesis for my Women's Literature in class on Twilight, Dracula and anti-feminism in vampire literature. I should state before I give any other information that I am a twenty year old woman who read the Twilight books while in an emotionally abusive relationship. At the time I didn't realize that was what was going on. I thought he loved me and what he did was "for my own good."

After emerging from the relationship I stopped liking Twilight. In fact, I found it repulsive. The lesson of purity until marriage is cheapened by the blatant co-dependency and patronizing attitude of Edward.

What I started to notice was that Bella was...well...she was much cooler when edward wasn't around. She choose to give up her life for her mother, she went shopping with girlfriends, she learned to ride a motorcycle. There was a girl I could dig. Then when Edward is around she can hardly buckle her own seatbelt? Seriously? I want to read about girls who stand up for their beliefs on their own two feet. I want to read about strong fighting women with a plan for their lives.

Moreover, Edward decided she should have an abortion when the birth of Renessme (sp? probably...) threatened Bella's health. This is our model of male virtue? All right to life issues aside, he made an important decision about Bella's body and Bella's child without consulting her. Right to life issues considered, the man was about to murder his own child.

My next issue takes place in New Moon. When Edward disappears Bella goes comatose for abut four months. That's not right. That' not what we need to teach our daughters about boys. Six months ago I chose to discontinue my engagement to my fiancee (the emotionally abusive relationship I mentioned). Because I did love him, and because we had co-dependency issues it was the hardest decision I've ever made in my life. I was crushed. But after about a week I started moving on. Within three months I was dating a new guy and making new plans for my life. My world didn't end just because I lost my first love. I would never want a thirteen year old to get the message Meyer seems to be giving in New Moon.

Last, I find it troubling that Bella doesn't express a wish to go to college or pursue any kind of career. I'm not saying she needs to work full time. But I am of the opinion that if you aren't in college you should be volunteering your time. Speaking as a girl who is a full time student/part time volunteer, I find it troubling that Bella has no want in life besides "being with Edward."

Do I think their good fluffy books for mature women who understand how to stand up for themselves? I guess if that's the sort of stuff they like to read. Would I want a young woman I was parenting to hold Bella and Edward up as an ideal relationship? No...never. It doesn't matter to me whether or not they had sex before marriage, the example of their relationship is not a Godly one.

19. Leah W. said the following at 4:20 PM on Dec 15:

I work with the teenage girls at my church and while i've never personally read the series (i'm really not into vamps -- too many *old* Bella Lugosi’s vamp movies to make that appealing):) i know every aspect of the storylines. (my teenage girls who would read, explain, and summarize every part of every book-didn't really feel the need to read it after that. :D) i was personally ambiguous towards them because they were one of the few media outlets that did encourage my girls not to have sex before marriage.
Then... I watched the movie--the second one. and suddenly a *lot* of pieces fell into place. Mainly how my girls (when reading these books) would start talking about themselves as if they were dirt -- or something lower. (I don't know if anyone who has read the books has noticed this but Bella has *serious* self-esteem issues! and while that may not effect a grown woman--or guys--it *definitely* effected my teenage girls! At which point i would tell them to put down Twilight and read the Bible. Oh btw, they never forgot their Twilight book, but they sure did forget their Bibles while reading Twilight.) Another thing that i noticed was how this movie and (from what i've listened to) the second book encouraged young girls to think that while their "one true love", who has smashed their hearts and caused serious depression, is away; it's not really "wrong" to (in essence) lead on another guy without bothering to tell him that you're desperately in "love" with guy #1. (i saw this play out in the dating lives of more than one of my teenage girls, but the pieces really didn't fall into place until after i left the theater, and thought about when certain girls were reading certain twilight books.) The last and most intensely angering part of this series is how bella is so wrapped up in edward that "I'm nothing with him." becomes not only the basic theme of the second book--that summary was from someone who actually read the book--but also a horrific line in the movie! this theme made me so angry that i was near belligerent when i left the movie. and when asked my opinion of the movie (i was asked to go with one of my "middle-aged mom" friends) in the womens' bathroom afterwards, i freely and openly expressed my very poor opinion of New Moon and it's "heroine". And i have freely expressed my opinion not only to my teenage girls but also to other Twilight fans i know who have asked me what i think about twilight.
so i don't know if this "neediness" is on the list, but i'm hoping that at least the women who have read these stories, see that while the abstinence may be a positive point; telling girls that they are nothing without a "man" (or vamp) by their side is by far a greater detriment! (Not all men--or vamps--are as virtuous as eddie-boy and will take advantage of these young girls' utter dependency.)
Do i agree in marriage? With *all* my heart! But do i think that my existence should begin and end with my spouse? Um... no. because if i'm not mistaken that's my duty to Christ not my husband! Seeing as how Christ saved my soul, and all.
Sorry about the rant. But these issues in twilight just infuriated me!

20. Kellie said the following at 4:41 PM on Dec 15:

I like the Twilight books and the movies too. But I think they are best if not taken too seriously.

21. MrsLarijani said the following at 4:47 PM on Dec 15:

I am not sure that this blog post was meant to critique the "Twilight" series since the author fessed up and said she has neither read the series or seen the movie. Heather does bring up some interesting things. Things I believed as a teenager. I am now 28 years old.

I do wonder what is so attractive about the thought that the boy who doesn't like you and avoids you like the plague is the one you must be meant for. It is usually the boy who annoys you the most that is the most attracted to you. (side note: My husband LOVES doing and saying things to me that he knows will make me poke him in the side. I don't understand the phenomenon of boys annoying the girls that they like!)

22. Andrea-Elena said the following at 4:50 PM on Dec 15:

Julie (Ginger) [#15]: You should watch Twilight with the RiffTrax. Oh, my stars!!! Hysterical!!!!!!!!

I've read all four books (I know, I know: I caved; definitely spotted both the merits and deficits of the books, including the weak spots in the writing and plotting) and saw Twilight (w/out the RiffTrax first) but refuse to see New Moon until the RiffTrax commentary comes out (it's in the works).

Heather Koerner:

You mean like holding up a boom box while it plays, and you're standing in the street in front of your ex-girlfriend's house? Or wearing your girl's diamond stud earring, after spending an entire day of detention with her (during which you met and somehow discovered that though both of you are highly obnoxious, you're actually a really great pair)? Heh, heh.

23. Sara said the following at 5:05 PM on Dec 15:

I have confidence that no Boundless reader is so stupid as to take romance advice from any fiction novel, especially Twilight.

I love the Twilight series. They aren't the best written novels I have ever read, but it is a captivating lil' love story. I often joke with my husband that he is both my Edward and my Jacob rolled into one. Also, for the record, I hated the Twilight movie, and I don't know if I will bother seeing the New Moon movie.

I find that romantic fiction, although enjoyable, does not mirror real life. Most people say that it doesn't mirror real life because it gives to much of an idealized version of what love and marriage is like, but I disagree. My love life is way better than any novel could capture. However, I get annoyed when I see all these posts from men saying, "This Twilight thing is unhealthy for women and gives them unrealistic expectations!"

What is so unrealistic about a man caring deeply for a woman? About a man having a male mentor that he turns to for advice? About withholding his sexual passion until marriage? About questioning whether he is good enough for the woman? I know men who have done all of those things and more for their wives.

Within the context of a novel, most of the bad things that occur are explainable. For example, could one compare an abused woman's excuse of falling down the stairs to Bella's when Bella was actually attacked by a violent, psychopathic vampire who lured her in by pretending her mother was in danger? Um, two totally different things. One of which would never happen in real life.

I guess my point is that if anyone takes lessons like that young man listed on his blog to heart, than they don't have the critical thinking skills to read fictional books. I am not saying fictional books don't have the potential to teach (think Parables from the Bible, or even one of my fave books: Redeeming Love which teaches forgiveness), but one must be able to discern between fictional situations and real life.

24. Keena Martinez said the following at 5:51 PM on Dec 15:

I've read all 4 books in the series and watched the first movie. Yes, Edward and Bella do wait until after they marry to consummate their relationship but their relationship was anything but pure even before their marriage. God looks at the heart, not just the outward actions. So, yes, the books disturbed me very much.

25. Emily said the following at 6:10 PM on Dec 15:

I'd have to say I'd agree with this blog. I read all four books, and, other than the fact that the inner-writer/editor in me was writhing in horror (I thought it was horribly written), it points girls to all of the wrong things.

Sure, maybe it points girls to waiting until marriage/purity.

But only physically. And I would like to point out that while keeping physical intimacy in check and at an appropriate level for a dating relationship, it's NOT the only thing!!!

Girls must also guard their thoughts and hearts. Bella absolutely does NOT do this. She falls in love with him the FIRST time they go out. She gives her whole heart to him. And when he leaves, she is so broken that she can't get out of bed for three days.

Does that sound healthy to you? It doesn't to me.

We need to encourage girls to yearn for the love and wholeness that Christ can give. Not in played-up romances like Twilight.

Let's teach girls to control themselves, physically AND emotionally.

"Guard your heart with all vigilance, for from it flows the spring of life" Proverbs 4:23

26. rushncap said the following at 7:27 PM on Dec 15:

Quoting from the link provided in #17

Cullen is portrayed as romantic, protective, and most important, as relating at a far deeper level than mere physical attraction. He resists sleeping with Bella because he doesn’t want to harm her. His desire to love and protect her causes him to take leadership, put on the brakes on their physical relationship, and control his sexual impulses.

Which is why this is Playboy for women. The description of said vampire is about as realistic as the "standard guy" desire of a woman who enjoys sex, cooking and watching sports, while being uninterested in talking, shopping, cuddling or monogamy (only on the male's part, of course). Oh, and smoking hot. What Playboy and Hustler sell to men, Twilight sells to women: an unrealistic amalgamation of all the virtues of the opposite gender without any of the drawbacks. Not that I mind, honestly. The "unrealistic expectations" field has been heavily tilted away from women in our culture, and maybe it's time we got some of our own medicine.

It's amusing, however, that female porn is really the biggest best-seller out there. "Titanic" holds the top spot, and Twilight set first-day record and will probably get near the top soon.

27. Samaria said the following at 7:29 PM on Dec 15:

Something up my alley!

I'm a 16-year-old girl, a junior in high school, and I see Twilight everywhere I go. I do mean everywhere. I've read all four books, and not once did I like them. Besides the awful writing, cardboard characters, and boring, dragged-out plot, I caught the unhealthiness of Bella and Edward's relations right off the bat. There are many, many blogs out there that will tell you, and explicitly explain, each and every reason why Bella and Edward's relationship is unhealthy (you'll probably come across the adjective 'abusive,' too, and I find that descriptor quite fair), but my main issue is that Bella has no life outside of Edward. She has no hobbies, no interests, no goals and ambitions, no friends. Any friends she could possibly have she neglects for her man, who she has never actually talked to past (and therefore Bella doesn't really know Edward), "Oh, you like music! Oh, your car is so cute! Oh, I want to sleep with you, now!" That last one is the entire plot of the story, actually, one way or another. Their "love" is nothing but infatuation and lust, and sadly most readers fail to recognize that.

I could go on... and on... and on... but this is already tl;dr, so I'll just say that Twilight is not only a waste of time, but is a sad reflection of the romantic attitudes that my generation is growing up with. The Twihards don't think about what they're reading, and so they believe it. Oi.

28. Kelly said the following at 7:41 PM on Dec 15:

I liked the Twilight books. Yeah, they're addictive. And as a pediatrician, I do worry how they affect young minds. But there are reasons young women love them. The Twilight men aren't just attractive romantically. So many of Edward's and Jacob's characteristics are like those I see in Christ- Edward is practically omniscient and omnipresent, both Jacob and Edward love Bella sacrificially, they both desire to know her, and to care for her. I don't think these crazy twihards are just craving perfect husbands-- they're craving Jesus.

29. livinginfreedom said the following at 9:02 PM on Dec 15:

do people have nothing better to do than to read books about vampire love? seriously??? i'm all for entertainment and fun, but i have to rank vampire fiction on the same level as playing some virtual reality game for fun. what happened to outdoor fun, hanging out with people, making your life worthwhile??? do reading vampire novels make you more of the human Jesus created you to be??? finally, does anyone have a problem with the fact that vampires are satanic? doesn't that kind of taint the series from the start? if you don't post this, i won't be offended. i'm just ranting.

30. Nancy said the following at 7:28 AM on Dec 16:

Thank you, commenter RE: "Christian" romance novels! Christian or not, most romance novels are like a candy bar -- easy, tasty, but not a good steady diet. To those who read lots of them, I challenge you to read Jane Eyre, and then see how satisfying that book is compared to the formulaic writing and weak characters in most romance novels. Hope you enjoy reading some fiction "meat"!

31. mary kate said the following at 7:45 AM on Dec 16:

i'm with julie (15). i started to read one and couldn't finish it. it reminds me of the shack—a great idea but terrible execution.

my real beef is the complete and total flatness of bella. ok, so edward is perfect and amazing, and bella is.... whiny, insecure, and annoying. srsly!? i could be a lot more on board if she were a better developed, more interesting character. but her flatness adds to the whole "just pine away and do nothing and mr. perfect will come along, have an amazing connection with you, and you'll fall in love." Lame.

32. Robin Munn said the following at 8:07 AM on Dec 16:

Amy (#3):

You said there are some good aspects to the books that would be worth discussing. What are they? I read all four books a few months ago, and remember them mostly as mediocre writing (with one, count 'em, ONE clever moment in all four books -- it kept me reading hoping that Meyer would repeat her cleverness, but sadly, she didn't), with a too-dumb-to-live heroine and her creepy-stalker boyfriend.

Seriously, in real life Bella would end up with an abusive boyfriend whose abuse she would justify because "he cares about me so much". She's scarily obsessed with Edward and would justify absolutely anything Edward does, up to and including killing her. And when Edward admits to watching her in her room at night, that doesn't come across as protectiveness to me, it comes across as stalkerish.

Yes, Edward is to be commended for keeping the relationship pure sexually -- but I don't recall Bella ever helping in that regard. As I remember it, she would have been quite happy to sleep with Edward if he had allowed it, and the credit for keeping high standards of sexual purity is all his, not hers. Not to mention her lousy treatment of Jacob: she strings him along, gives him good reason (from his perspective) to hope that she might see him as more than a friend, then drops him like a hot rock the minute Edward becomes available again. The fact that Jacob continues to be Bella's friend is a testament to his character, not her own.

As an aside: I really liked Jacob in the first two books. He was the dogged (hah!) nice guy, obviously destined not to end up with the heroine but willing to accept her decision and just be her friend. This made the character derailment of book three incredibly annoying to me. Jacob practically rapes Bella (though thankfully doesn't get very far)? What in the world was Meyer thinking? The character introduced in the first two books would never do that -- Jacob has obviously been replaced by a doppleganger somewhere between books two and three.

So... yeah. Enough ranting from me already about why I didn't like the books. I'd like to hear from some people who did like them: why did you like them? And did the flaws I disliked bother you, or were they things you were able (as I wasn't) to take in stride?

33. Robin Munn said the following at 10:03 AM on Dec 16:

... Wow. When I wrote my post above (#32), only posts 1 through 17 had appeared on the discussion thread. Obviously I'm not the only one who thought Bella's infatuation with Edward to be... well, "unhealthy" is probably the mildest term that would apply here.

Also, I should probably mention (since my name is ambiguous) that I'm a man. I read the Twilight series not because I thought I would like it, but because I thought I would hate it -- and I wanted to criticize it based on facts, not based on hearing other people's opinions.

34. Heather Koerner said the following at 10:17 AM on Dec 16:

Andrea-Elena (#22):

We are soul sisters!

"In your eyes, the light, the heat, your eyes, I am complete ..."

:) I'm amazed that we overcame such warped syrup.

35. BDB said the following at 10:50 AM on Dec 16:

It's very amusing to read all the comments that include a variation of:

"I read all four books and didn't like them!"

That's like saying,

"Yuck, the milk has gone bad. Here, smell this..."

36. rushncap said the following at 11:29 AM on Dec 16:

BDB - it's very very rare that we agree, but I noticed the same thing! Except your analogy is slightly flawed, it's not "Yuck, the milk has gone bad. Here, smell this...", it's more ""Yuck, the milk has gone bad. Let me try another sip... nope, still bad... Let me try one more... Nope..."

So here's a question to all the girls who claim to not like these books: seriously, why keep reading? You have nothing better to do? For instance, I read "The Hobbit", thought it stunk, and did not bother with the 1,500 pages (or whatever) of the Ring trilogy. I got roped into watching the first Ring movie, thought it stunk, didn't bother watching the 8 hours (or whatever) of the next 2. How do you decide "I'm going to read the 4th book in a series even though I didn't like the first 3"?

37. Sarah P. said the following at 11:51 AM on Dec 16:

I'm with Cat (#18). I find Twilight utterly repulsive. It's not because Edward is a vampire, either. heh. I've read a few dozen Buffy the Vampire Slayer books in my time (high school), as well as Dracula, etc. No... I tried several times to truck my way through the first Twilight book, but it was just too lugubrious for me. Slow, with meager writing skills. Worst of all to me was the heavy-handed, obvious manipulation of emotion.

It reminded me of the same reasons I absolutely detest television advertising. Using poor logic and mostly emotion, it seeks to sell products to the weak-minded. Worst of all, apparently it works!

38. Daniel said the following at 11:57 AM on Dec 16:

Me and the Wife saw the movie Twilight not knowing what it was thinking we might find something we got along the lines of Anne Rice. Instead what insued was the worse migraine my wife ever had.

I do not need to read the books... I can use common sense to realize I would be hit with a brick of stupid.

Now... watching the Riff track from the previous link posted earlier on comments... laughing tremedously, can't stop... side hurts.

Ok. Actual criticism... Edward probably is the only decent character in the series... Bella is... something I hope my daughter one day never becomes.

39. IMO said the following at 12:40 PM on Dec 16:

"How do you decide "I'm going to read the 4th book in a series even though I didn't like the first 3"?"

Isn't that how a cult wooes you in? Committed to the 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd book...m-u-s-t read 4th... lol

40. EKB said the following at 2:23 PM on Dec 16:

Interestingly, my first and only exposure to Twilight was when I ran across it in our house and was totally repulsed reading the back of it. Turns out my younger brother was reading it! Are there any other girls out there who haven't read them? I really just don't get this.

41. Tami said the following at 3:18 PM on Dec 16:

EKB (40): I haven't read them. They really hold little interest to me... except to find out what interests everyone else. :)

42. BDB said the following at 4:11 PM on Dec 16:

I'm sure that part of the reason people don't like the Twilight books is that real vampires catch fire in sunlight...I'm sure that Lestat can totally take either Team Edward or Team Jacob...man, kids today...

43. Betsy said the following at 4:59 PM on Dec 16:

EKB (40)- I haven't read them either. Scared to be consumed as I had seen so many of my friends consumed by the books.

44. Samaria said the following at 5:36 PM on Dec 16:

rushncap, I kept reading the books because I am a staunch supporter of only criticizing and hating something one actually knows about. I can't stand it when people harp on books they've never read, so I don't do it myself. The first book in the series wasn't horrible - just amateurish, as debuts tend to go - so I kept reading because I was curious whether or not it would get better. It didn't. I skimmed the last two books, technically, but the plot is so simple that skimming can count as a full sitting.

45. BI said the following at 8:00 AM on Dec 17:

When it comes to romance, it’s all about selfishness vs. love. A selfish person always sees the negative in others and always tries to underline their shortcomings while completely ignoring their good sides. On the other hand, a person who loves always tries to see first the positive in others and point out their strengths while overlooking their weaknesses. (Of course, I am focusing more on romantic kind of love which is more emotional than on Biblical kind of love.) Hence, when a person is completely and utterly in love, s/he has found her/his ideal match, as all shortcomings and defects of the beloved seem to vanish and become insignificant in the eyes of the person who loves. This is a romantic kind of love as it cannot last forever unlike Biblical kind of love, as we cannot always live on an emotional high of being unselfish towards the beloved.

I know that part of the job of the Boundless authors is to play matchmaking; however, in times like these, romance should be our last worry. Do you really not understand what is about to happen? Your whole economy is in debris and the only reason not to have a worldwide Great Depression yet, but a Great Recession is the gigantic amount of stimulus that your government has poured into the economy (and other governments also have poured massive amount of stimulus into their respective economies). Right now everything is hanging on the thread and this global economic crisis is unprecedented and similar only to the Great Depression. We all know what happened during the Great Depression.

The only reason for the temporary recovery in economic activity is the government stimulus and all the measures taken by the Fed. However, when the stimulus effect fades away, there is a real danger that things will go downhill again. Moreover, if the government stimulus does not produce the desired effect of restoring trust in all kinds of markets, banks do not start lending and businesses investing and hiring, unemployment will continue to rise and the economy will collapse. It is very dubious that the stimulus will produce the desired effects of a lasting recovery, as the situation is unprecedented of its kind. The losses are so massive that one cannot hide them for too long and cannot make them just go away. When the financial pyramid of Bernie Madoff fell off, almost everyone who trusted him and invested with him suffered immensely. The American economy more or less has been built on a very complicated financial pyramid that has virtually collapsed. However, the government has taken unthinkable measures to soften the impact of this economic collapse. Nevertheless, everything is still on the line right now. The government and the local states are running enormous budget deficits in order to support the economy and to pay the benefits for the unemployed. However, this cannot go forever – either the private sector has to significantly pick up or the government has to print money and/or devalue its currency relying on the fact that the dollar is an international reserve currency and this will not lead to a default. Either way, the massive losses due to the bursting of all kinds of bubbles in local and international markets cannot be simply reversed and swept under the rag – soon or later they have to all be accounted for.

Pray for wisdom for the government authorities as well as for the market participants. They need to unite and inspire the people to persevere and endure the crisis, and they need to rely on God. Do you not know that all the bad things that have happened are just the beginning? This is no time for romance and other distractions. It’s a time for a radical change of heart and mind. It’s a time for all people to realize, especially the leaders that they have to examine themselves and radically change. It’s a time for a radical shift of our focus – radical turning back to God, radical repentance, radical desire to love God and obey His laws, and radical desire to change the way we treat each other in the sight of God. The human nature is interesting: we all want to be accepted as very good, pious, noble and generous people by outsiders; however, we have inside all kinds of idols that we truly desire – the lifestyle of celebrities, selfish ambition and motives, the glory and the spotlight all for ourselves. I think this article describes in some way this kind of tension.

Even if some of you think you do not need to change as you do all the right things, I’d say that in times like these it’s better to radically turn your attention to God in repentance and supplication than become complacent and distract your attention with other things. It’s time to examine ourselves honestly and radically turn back to God. It’s no time for complacency; it’s a time for a radical change.

46. Daniel B said the following at 3:48 PM on Dec 17:

Now we just need a counterpart article for 20 Unfortunate Lessons Women Learn From 'Pride and Prejudice'

47. Jo said the following at 9:44 AM on Dec 18:

Daniel B,
Have you read it?

48. Laura said the following at 4:27 PM on Dec 18:

I want to go ahead and state that I have not read or watched Twilight, so I'm not even going to attempt to comment on it. All I really know about it is that there are a lot of young girls (and women) infatuated with someone named Edward. I don't care for vampires so I don't see myself ever getting into the series.

I practically grew up on Pride and Prejudice, though. While some people would say that the book gives women unrealistic expectations about meeting and marrying a rich and unattainable man, Pride and Prejudice is full of real-life situations that I believe both men and women can learn from. The main characters (Mr. Darcy and Elisabeth Bennet) are presented as real people with real character flaws. As it happens, Elizabeth dislikes and initially rejects Mr. Darcy because he is proud and caught up in the (sinful) custom of the day of treating poor people with contempt. When he finally does propose, Elizabeth explains rather brutally that regardless of how much money he makes, there was nothing he could do to ever tempt her to marry him. His pride repulsed her and she demonstrated that character was more important to her than his bank balance.

Elizabeth is not without her own faults. She tends to be very critical and judgmental. She is a no-nonsense type of girl, far from romantic. She and Mr. Darcy butt heads because their flaws repel and disgust each other. But as it often happens in real life, a series of crisis force them to look at themselves in the mirror and confront their own failings. It is a love story in that they marry at the end. But mostly the story is a denunciation of the social "caste system" of 19th century England. Some girls may come away from the book pining for a Mr. Darcy to call their own. But I imagine that they would be predisposed to pin romantic longings on any man that said they passionately loved them and had an enormous amount of money. But that is exactly what Elizabeth *does not* do. She only marries Mr. Darcy after they both acknowledge and repent of their respective sins (pride and prejudice).

I was probably about 10 or 11 when I was first exposed to P & P, but at that young age I came away from the book sincerely hating the practice of discrimination based on social or financial status, and examining my own tendency to judge people before getting to know them better. (Also, women in that day and age rarely had employment and were almost always dependent on men for their livelihood. Finding a man of means was not just an issue of extravagance but survival.)

I never really saw P & P as a "love story" or even all that romantic. The plot was driven by two very flawed people who struggled to perfect their character. They grated against each other, got on each other's nerves, challenged one another. Not exactly the stuff of romance novels. But, alas, they wind up marrying in the end. If a person thinks that that is how their love life will unfold, then I suspect that they probably already have some unrealistic expectations to deal with. I think it is a good piece of literature only for the reason that the author places more importance on a person's character than their financial and physical assets.

49. Veronica said the following at 5:36 PM on Dec 18:

Not only does Twilight teach young girls scary things like this, it also completely warps the original vampire myth! A bit of folklore and fantasy never hurts anyone, but not when people hype it up into reality.

50. The Other Amy said the following at 6:12 PM on Dec 18:

I have to admit that I rolled my eyes while reading this article and some of the responses. It's fiction, not real life. I think these books can entertain, but they also give the chance for talking opportunities with parents and their children.

As a 28-year-old, I didn't walk away with any truths from Twilight. I didn't expect to find a map for finding my soul mate or tips on how to know if a guy is right for me. They were simply fun books for me to read. What I did like about the books and what I think are positive points about the main vampire, Edward, is that he can be thoughtful and chivalrous. That's the character trait that I noticed that I find attractive. And with Pride and Prejudice, I like how Mr. Darcy pursues Miss Elizabeth. Michael Hosea from Redeeming Love has a love for the Lord and is obedient to God even when uncomfortable. Perhaps I am able to take away these points because I have adult critical thinking and maturity that a teenager would not have, but I think that's where adults can step in to mentor young women. It's a chance to talk about what would be positive and godly characteristics in a man (and woman) and to discuss how sometimes society/books/movies present an unhealthy example. Instead of sheltering people from the lack of "godly" interactions, perhaps we should be mentoring and equipping them to use critical thinking so they can decide for themselves what is truth. That way, they're set up to analyze when they're on their own instead of mindlessly following what is supposed to be right.

51. Heather Koerner said the following at 7:28 PM on Dec 18:

Daniel B (#46):

We already have one. Sort of. ;)

52. Julia said the following at 12:22 AM on Dec 19:

Samaria, I feel exactly the same way. I strongly dislike the Twilight series, but I did read all four books because I feel like I can't make an honest judgment about something I haven't read (and, like you, I skimmed the last two books...they were so poorly written it didn't take too much of my time). I wouldn't have read them at all if they didn't have such a following, and if some of my Sunday School girls weren't asking what I thought about them. Now I feel like I can make an informed, credible critique of them.

And the idea that these books can be used as an example of sexual purity makes me somewhat angry. Bella and Edward frequently spend the night together in her bed, Bella frequently asks Edward to have sex, and when they do get married the consummation of their relationship is told in MUCH more detail than what I would consider appropriate. Also Edward, after marrying Bella, offers her to Jacob for procreation, or to be his wife, or something (I can't remember the details, like I said I skimmed the 4th book). Really? A good example for Christians?

I really appreciate pretty much anything C.S. Lewis writes, and something from The Four Loves stuck out to me that I think applies to the "love" (obsession?) that Edward and Bella have for each other.

"If we ignore it, the truth that God is love may slyly come to mean for us the converse, that love is God.

Every human love, at its height, has a tendency to claim for itself a divine authority. Its voice tends to sound as if it were the will of God Himself. It tells us not to count the cost, it demands of us a total commitment, it attempts to over-ride all other claims and insinuates that any action which is sincerely done "for love's sake" is thereby lawful and even meritorious."

53. Laura said the following at 1:13 PM on Dec 19:

I read "Why Mr. Darcy?" and most of the comments on that post. I thought that it was extremely well-written and an accurate assessment of the book. Spot on, really. (Thank you, Heather).

Honestly, until very recently I had NO idea that women were fantasizing about meeting someone like Darcy and comparing the men in their life to him. I suppose this phenomenon is similar to what's taking place with the Twilight series, though I would not put a respected work of historical fiction and a pop sensation in the same literary genre. No matter what the merits of a particular book (or lack there of), there is always a level of personal responsibility that rests solely upon the reader: to think critically, make their own judgements about the content of the book, and to possess the wisdom and maturity to distinguish between what is fictional and what is reality. I believe that a lot of these young girls infatuated with Edward need their parents to step in and assess whether their daughters have the maturity to read a book without becoming emotionally "involved" with the characters. If not, then that can be a time for some frank discussion about emotional boundaries, purity, guarding and saving your heart for your future spouse, and getting your sense of purpose and fulfillment from the Lover of our souls, Christ Jesus. Again, I think that Pride and Prejudice is an excellent piece of historical fiction, but if ever I saw a woman fantasizing about any of the characters of the book, I would see it more as a reflection of her own maturity and the unguardedness of her heart.

I can't say that Twilight is bad because I haven't read the books. But if young ladies are reading the books without keeping watch over their hearts and minds, then I think their parents need to step in.

54. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 2:25 PM on Dec 20:

I am SOOOOOOO glad my now-FIANCE (you read that correctly) has never mentioned Pride and Prejudice or Mr. Darcy to me, let alone has any interest in seeing some rediculous vampire movie. I am SOOO glad my fiance is grounded in reality as far as our relationship is concerned, and doesn't resort to comparing me to some far-fetched idealized perfect man like Mr Darcy (gee I seem to recall being ignored and then belittled on Boundlessline a while back because I dared to ask an honest question: "who is Mr. Darcy?"). I am so glad I missed out on the Jane Austen cult growing up. I was too busy pondering the inner workings of this world through my studies of the physical sciences.

Seriously, I am TRULY glad I didn't have to measure up to P&P or Mr. Darcy or any Vampire to be good enough to propose to my beautiful blonde girlfriend!

55. Jo said the following at 2:27 AM on Dec 21:

"and doesn't resort to comparing me to some far-fetched idealized perfect man like Mr Darcy"

Seriously, Mr Darcy is not perfect or even that far-fetched. I love Pride & Prejudice, I love Jane Austen in general, and I do not under any circumstances want to marry a man like Mr Darcy. Austen gave her characters serious flaws and had them made huge mistakes in many cases. The appeal of her books to modern women is the period they're set in, the pretty dresses and the dances and the poetic speech. We romanticise the setting and then by association we fall in love with the leading men. That is not the fault of Austen, it's the fault of a modern world where men and women don't behave with respect to one another any more.

Did anyone see the BBC series 'Lost in Austen'? It wasn't great but it raised some really interesting points. Basically a modern girl ends up in Austen-land and she and Darcy fall in love - but when he finds out she 'is not a maid' (ie a virgin) he is devastated. This is just an example, but often I think the problem with the kinds of women who do fall for Darcy is that they want a courteous, honourable man who won't take advantage of them, and they fantasise that a man like Darcy wouldn't be at all put off by a modern 'liberated' woman who shuns outdated customs like saving themselves for marriage (and so on). The fact that they're attracted to the Darcy 'ideal' is evidence of a deeper truth, that modern people want the best of both worlds. We think we should be able to free ourselves from all the old social and moral expectations but still enjoy all the benefits. It doesn't work like that and the fact we think it does suggests that something's gone a bit wrong somewhere.

The problem isn't with Austen. Austen exposes the problem with us.

56. Cat said the following at 7:58 AM on Dec 21:

I grew up reading literary classics like Jane Austen's P&P. By the third grade I was at an eighth grade reading level. By the fifth grade I was reading and comprehending Shakespeare's Macbeth. P&P is one of the books I will always return to but never once have I ever compared a man to Mr. Darcy. In fact, looking back the amont of times I've compared a person in my life to a literary character amounts to...umm... 0 times.

Wait..

I feel a kinship with Francie in A Tree Grows in Bo0oklyn (I've called her my literary twin), and my Mom reminds me of one of the letters Abigail Adams wrote to her husband that was re-printed in my Women's Lit book. That's about all I can remember.

I think guys assume we set this standard because I've never, in my entire life met a woman who has set a standard like that. I love my boyfriend in spite and even because of the imperfections. If he were perfect that would be boring. Mainly because I could never disagree with him because I'd always be wrong. Mr Darcy is too stuffy, Edward Cullen is a wife beater waiting to happen.

The reason I have a problem with Twilight is because of the thirteen year old girls who assume Edward and Bella have a healthy relationship and therefore seek out emotional abuse. Notice I said thirteen year old girls and not forty year old women.

57. Sarah P. said the following at 9:15 AM on Dec 21:

Amy (#50) said: I have to admit that I rolled my eyes while reading this article and some of the responses. It's fiction, not real life.

I wish that people wouldn't say something is "only" fiction. Stories are powerful because imagination is powerful. Most everything "real" in this world wasn't here at one time, but was dreamed up and invented by people with imagination.

Imaginations gather their material from everything they take in. That's why the Bible tells us to "renew our minds daily." We might be able to deal OK with something like Twilight, but only if our imaginations are healthy, sane, and regularly "fed" with healthy "food." If we are used to better material, however, we will probably not find Twilight up to snuff.

It's like a sugar addiction. If you eat sugar all the time, your body can handle it, but mostly by figuring out how to store it. If you eat very little sugar on a daily basis and then eat a huge piece of chocolate cake, you will probably feel pretty sick.

58. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 10:26 AM on Dec 21:

Jo (#55),

Thanks for responding to my post. You are the first one that I have read on here that has stated something like you said. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear one person in my presence dismiss Mr. Darcy as the ideal the way you pointed out.

My post was not to start a fight over P&P or Austen with everyone, but just to annoy those who take fiction to seriously.

59. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 10:53 AM on Dec 21:

Jo and Cat (55 and 56):

Perhaps I did resort to hyperbole in my post, but I really want to be honest in saying that I AM thankful my fiance hasn't mentioned Austen, Darcy, or even Jesus. Maybe because I am "a guy" I don't understand the fascination with Austen et al.

Unfortunately, there ARE Christian women out there who DO compare the men they know to Jesus or some idealized perfect man, and these women I know that do this as, far as I know, are STILL SINGLE. One woman said she wanted to dance alone with Jesus at a wedding reception because he is the only perfect man. Another woman I know absolutely wouldn't give up her notion of the idealized man, who happened to be a major secular rock star. Men do the same thing with porn or celebrities. I know that you both are wise in being able to discern in your reading, and I commend you in that!

60. BI said the following at 11:21 AM on Dec 21:

Many women want a Mr. Darcy type of guy and I don’t blame them for that. However, men can also want and fantasize a certain type of a character lady that is not necessarily linked to her looks as it is the general convention. Very often in real life women want a guy whom they want to engage emotionally and intimately with on different psychological and spiritual levels but without committing. While it is common in our sexualized culture to focus too much on sex and on the desire of secular men to pursue only sex without commitment, it is almost completely ignored that women can and do engage in such kind of perverse emotional attachments that they can manipulate men’s feelings and emotions to a great extent without giving anything in return as commitment. In fact, the secular culture of feminism encourages such kind of female empowerment for the sake of the male dignity and self-respect. In this way, women can abuse men by manipulating them and playing with their feelings and emotions, and one day simply walk out of a relationship any time they want as they do not feel committed. Hence, they may leave a deeply broken-hearted man with a broken spirit who may feel as if he has been cheated and abused, and whose whole dreams have collapsed. The worst part of it is that men are assumed to be superficial and not be too sensitive and they do not receive almost any compassion for the emotional abuse and hurt they get from women.

This is a topic which our culture does not address too much – the fact that a marriage relationship includes not only sexual intimacy, but also a deeper level of emotional intimacy and spiritual oneness. In other words, we should not only focus on when sex is allowed – in or outside of marital relationship – but also on what kind of emotional intimacy and spiritual closeness are allowed in and outside of marriage. Certain degrees of emotional intimacy and spiritual closeness should not be allowed outside of a marital relationship without commitment, since if the relationship dissolves, at least one of the two people may be left deeply heart-broken and saddened as something that he has been building up for so long in terms of passion and emotion towards someone has just fallen completely apart. Moreover, a Christian woman should never want to bring such a grief to her brother whom the Lord watches over as this is a very selfish attitude and has nothing with the gospel of Jesus. Most often, women both secular and Christian will want to pursue selfishly a fulfillment of their romantic dreams on a deeply emotional level with their beloved, however, without the commitment of marriage. In this way, they forget the main purpose of marriage – marriage is supposed to bring glory to God, not self-fulfillment of romanticized emotions and dreams, especially for the sake of hurting one’s Christian brother. Indeed, marriage can also bring fulfillment of deep emotional intimacy and spiritual closeness, but similar to sex, certain things are better kept only for marriage and certainly not embraced for the sake of another person’s deep emotional pain and hurt.

The secular culture has encouraged women to take the man’s role even to the extent of submitting the man to her desires and power. Of course, this can be expected of secular women – it happened with me before I became a Christian – and then one can do nothing about it but continue to walk in faith and in love with Jesus regardless of how deeply it hurts. However, among Christians such attitude should be unthinkable. Sisters in Christ should always be mindful of their Christian brothers and how they relate with them on a deeper intimate and emotional level. Surely, they do not want to disrespect or abuse emotionally their brothers, as they do not want to be treated this way as well. Any other kind of behavior would suggest that one thinks him/herself as superior in relation to others and can get away with hurting other Christians. The Bible teaches that love is neither self-seeking nor self-serving, but seeks only to do good to others. However, the secular culture has made love self-serving to fulfill one’s own romantic dreams even for the sake of hurting, manipulating and lying to men. It’s all about a hunt and a chase for the prize, not a spiritual journey designed for the glory of God out of one’s own selfishness into a selfless and a sacrificial Biblical love. The secular culture expects selfish women not to give anything until they find the fulfillment of their romantic dreams while if men are really in love, they should give more and more regardless of how they are treated and abused as if women are some kind of prize they are chasing and not a spiritual union of love in the eyes of God – that’s the secular feminist definition of love. In the secular culture, women who selfishly manipulate other men’s emotions and feelings can always find any reason to leave and they will even try to make the other party feel as the guilty one, as if the man did not do enough and did not hold up to the expectations of receiving the desired prize.

61. Laura said the following at 6:07 PM on Dec 21:

Dan (58 and 59)

Congratulations on your upcoming nuptials. I wish you and your future wife all the best.

I can understand your frustration in that there are many women (more than I realized) that have unrealistic romantic expectations for their future or present spouse. I think I went a little overboard in my original post because Austen has been such a big part of my life from an academic standpoint. I didn't really like to read when I was younger, but Austen was one of those noted authors that did great things for the English language.

I did not see your post as an instigator of a fight, though I apologize a thousand times if my post came across as such. You brought up some really great points and opened my eyes to just how rampant these unrealistic notions are (Christian women fantasizing about meeting a Mr. Darcy? Oy!). Even comparing a young man to the stature of Jesus can be problematic, as you said (and my guess is that the young women doing so will excuse themselves from the same comparison). What is most frustrating is that this fascination with Edward Cullen and Mr. Darcy is extremely selfish and self-focused. It honestly leaves me speechless. So, I completely share your frustration.

BI (60)
Very thoughtful post. Not enough is said about the rampant selfishness present in our culture's portrayal of love and romance. IMHO, if a person does not go into a relationship with the intention of being a servant, then they are not ready to be in a relationship (that goes for both men and women). Using another person for your own selfish whims is anything but love.

62. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 2:11 PM on Dec 22:

Thanks Laura (#61) for your congrats and your message! I really appreciate it!

I have to give my female friend some BIG props (the one who wanted to dance only with Jesus), in that a while back a male friend of mine questioned her when she said she wanted to marry a Godly man. My male friend asked her what she meant by "Godly" and she said that she wanted to "marry a man who was growing in the Lord, even though he may not be perfect." I really appreciated her clarity on her comment!

My apologies too for being so hard on Austen fans (I dated a wonderful Austen fan a while back). I was kind of taken aback a while ago when on a previous Boundlessline post about Austen/Mr. Darcy I did post a short message asking who Mr. Darcy was (not ever having read Austen in my life), and not only did it take a while for someone to even respond to my question, but another individual made a rather crass remark about "never marry a man who doesn't know who Mr. Darcy is." I guess it is kinda safe for people to post mean messages here when they can post it anonymously, which is why I use my REAL name and REAL location here on Boundless.

63. Heather Koerner said the following at 2:58 PM on Dec 22:

Dan (#62):

Congratulations from me too! May God bless your marriage!

64. BDB said the following at 5:30 PM on Dec 22:

Ah - so we ARE congratulating Dan (real name) then?!?

Is that four?

65. Ro said the following at 3:06 AM on Dec 23:

It's a book about vampires. Are we then concluding that lessons girls learn from twilight is that vampires and werewolves are real? That if they move in with their fathers, they will have lots of freedom and a supercool life, and be given a truck that their father will put tire treads on?

It is a fictional story. Included in that is a love story between two broken slash sinful slash all-too-human despite the use of a vampire individuals. Until someone puts out a book

P.S. Anything, from work, to money, to legalism to religion can become an idol. Anything can consume us. Yes, some teenage girls are a bit over obsessed with romance. Just like some teenage guys are over obsessed with good looking woman. That does not mean the book cannot be enjoyed. I'm 26, and it was a real page turner, not just because of the romantic elements, but because it reads like a great adventure novel or typical of the fantasy genre (e.g. Lord of the Rings).

Lets not knock the book because some girls obsess about romance too much. It is a very good book. Not pefect, but entirely something great to read. That would be like saying that all woman should wear paper bags / burqas over the heads because teenage men are silly and that beauty is bad...

Anyway, all the book is really teaching girls is that the only time its ok for your boyfriend to leave you is when he is a vampire and you might get killed because he is around you. Not a problem I thikn most teenage girls have...or will ever have, what with all the do's and don'ts in life.

66. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 9:09 AM on Dec 23:

Thanks Heather and BDB (posts 63 and 64). BDB..four what?

67. BI said the following at 11:09 AM on Dec 23:

Ro, 65 - you wrote "Anyway, all the book is really teaching girls is that the only time its ok for your boyfriend to leave you is when he is a vampire and you might get killed because he is around you."

A good comment and a good point. (Disclaimer: I have not read the books.)

68. Ro said the following at 8:43 AM on Dec 24:

BI (#65), Thanks for the encouragement. I think its very important that teenage girls are aware of the potential pitfalls of dating a vampire:) Also, thanks to Heather, for a great conversation starting blog post and the good points she made.

69. Daniel B said the following at 2:00 AM on Dec 27:

<< They grated against each other, got on each other's nerves, challenged one another. Not exactly the stuff of romance novels. >>

But it is a classic Hollywood plot - the lovers-to-be hate each other at first, but "love conquers all" and they end up liking each other.

<< Seriously, Mr Darcy is not perfect or even that far-fetched. >>

He's not even close to perfect. He's stuffy, boring, haughty, and too afraid to ask her dance yet too unafraid to stop being obnoxious in his pursuit of a woman who doesn't want him to pursue her. Women would HATE this if it happened in real life and write boundless articles about why guys need to learn to take 'no' for an answer.

70. Laura said the following at 4:25 PM on Dec 28:

"Women would HATE this if it happened in real life"

I totally agree.

71. Robin said the following at 9:20 AM on Dec 29:

Thank you Heather for your article, and the dialog it has produced!

I did read all 4 Twilight books, at first because a Mom at church asked me what I thought, and I had no idea what she was talking about, but then continued to read the series because I enjoyed it. But, I do have several serious problems with it.

The biggest problem I have with the books is that the main character sets up her boyfriend to be her god. She lives for him, gives up her whole self for him, does whatever is necessary to sacrifice who she is to be what he wants and to have him in her life, and then becomes a zombie when he leaves town. That's how we should feel about God, not about another person. And like it or not, teenage girls do fill up their hearts and lives with fictitous people, and pop-stars, and celebrities. (And so do some non-teenage girls...) I know that it's just fiction, but as more mature Christians it is our job to live and encourage the Christian life to those younger in the faith. I don't think these books are a good way to do that.

Also, I think the save sex for marriage thing in Twilight is misconstrued. At one point, Edward does say that he is still sexually pure, and that it's the one area that he's never compromised himself, and he doesn't want to. But, the overriding reason to not have sex, has more to do with the fact that he might hurt Bella because he's so much stronger than she is, and because he might lose control and suck out all her blood. That's not exactly my definition of purity! (There's another great article on Boundless about purity being about your relationship with God, and not even about your future marriage!) And then, he (Edward) decides to toss it all out the window because he realizes he's using sex as a tool to make Bella do what he wants. My bottom line on this topic is the theme of Song of Solomon: Do not stir up or awaken love until it is ready. Some of the scenes in Twilight are very sensual, and awaken a desire in a woman's heart that is best left for marriage--not to focus on and yearn for beforehand.

72. Ro said the following at 7:23 AM on Jan 26:

Comments on Robin, #71

"And by this shall all men know tha tyou are my disciples, if you have love one to another." -The Bible. If there is one lost coin, the mistress looks for all of the. The shepherd leaves all the sheep to go looking for the lost sheep.

Poor Bella. If only her prayers to get over Edward wre stronger.

But does this also mean women must marry men they do not love?

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