Spare the Heavage
by Tom Neven on 12/16/2009 at 12:10 PM
Okay, ladies, we're on the cusp of a fashion trend that promises to set hearts aflutter. Okay, it's not really a new fashion; it's a retread from 30-plus years ago, but, hey, few of you Boundless readers were around then, so as the TV networks say about tired reruns, if you haven't seen it before, it's new to you.
The trend? Plunging necklines. For men. It's been dubbed "heavage," the male equivalent to cleavage. Apparently the latest thing is to wear your shirt with the top few buttons undone. Supposed to be really sexy.
One of the designers pushing the look says he wants to get back to a more '70s look. Think John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever. Now, revisiting the hideous fashions of the '70s rates pretty high on my "Things I'd Rather Not Do" list, right up there with "stick a fork in my eye," so I doubt I'll be indulging. Besides, I'm taken, so no need to tempt the ladies with my spectacular pecs.
Speaking of pecs, it seems the heavage fashion has started another trend, this time in breast implants—for men. Yep, pec implants. A whole new generation of children of plastic surgeons can now afford Harvard. Why bother with endless reps of bench presses when some silicone will work just as well for a lot less effort? (Question: If the purpose of heavage is to make you look more manly, doesn't getting breast implants make you a girlie-man?)
Joking aside, I think this story raises all sorts of interesting issues. When we talk about modesty, it's always in the context of the way women dress. I can't ever remember seeing the topic addressed from the male perspective. Is there such a thing as men dressing too provocatively? No, I don't mean the cartoonish version like the Chippendales. I mean in day-to-day situations, is there a way that men dress that can lead women astray? Would heavage be a problem? (Aside from being just gross, that is.) What about other forms of dress?
Ladies?
1. Tami said the following at 12:17 PM on Dec 16:
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What about modesty not in terms of sexuality, but in terms of simplicity of dress?
I mean by this, not wearing stuff with logos, icons, tons of glitter and spangles, etc. all over it (think Ed Hardy), all the time, regardless of the social setting. I think this attention-grabbing wear is a form of provoking envy -- yeah, it's not lust, but it's just as sinful, no?
I think both men and women can think of modesty in this way -- dressing in a way that may be attractive or interesting but doesn't scream LOOK AT ME!!!
2. kb said the following at 12:21 PM on Dec 16:
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What?!? Men should maybe think about modesty too?!?
All sarcasm aside, I have wished for several years that someone would address modesty for men. I attended a fairly conservative Bible college, and in my time there, I received "the modesty talk" more times than I can remember. However, when I brought up concerns about guys running around shirtless, those concerns were usually dismissed as not a big deal. It's my responsibility and privilege to dress with consideration toward my brothers in Christ, and I wish they'd do the same for me. Although girls may not be as visually oriented as guys are, we still have eyes too!
It's also important to me to remember that modesty is an issue of the heart--helping to focus attention where the attention should be (it isn't necessarily limited to covering up certain parts of your body). Pec implants? Definitely not helping me focus on the important things.
3. twilley said the following at 12:30 PM on Dec 16:
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Ha! Yes! Two posts on man-fashion in one day, which is awesome. I just heard this term for the first time the other day. Hilarious.
I think it's important to consider this question in a cross-cultural manner. I'm here in Germany, where the boys spend just as much time on their clothing and hairstyle as the girls, and have a way, way wider variety of styles to choose from than American men.
4. Nicole said the following at 12:33 PM on Dec 16:
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I actually have a story about male modesty that may surprise you.
I was a Jr. High youth group leader for a while, and we went on a summer retreat. Of course, the girls all went out and bought their cute bathing suits, and, at the retreat, were gathered up and given "the modesty talk". Later, 3 or 4 of the girls pulls me aside and one says, "Why do we always get yelled at for being immodest, but the guys don't?" I had never imagined that this would be an issue, so I asked what she meant. She told me, "When the guys wear their boxers under their swimsuits, and leave the waistband sticking out, it drives some of us girls crazy!" Her friends nodded in agreement.
I was very surprised, not only that these girls found this appealing (I certainly don't), but that some of them were willing to admit that it was tempting them. I really had to commend them for coming to me and being honest about this.
So, yes, there are ways males can dress that tempt the ladies. But, further than that, it's also vanity for either gender to wear revealing clothes and get implants. God made our bodies the way they are, and implants are destroying his creation. Also, showing cleavage is basically giving everyone a view of something that should be reserved for one's spouse.
Sorry for the long comment. I always leave such long ones. :)
5. Julie (Ginger) said the following at 12:40 PM on Dec 16:
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Oh please fellas, don't do this! or if you do undo the top button or two on your button-down/polo (I imagine it's got to be more comfortable), please wear a tshirt underneath. I'll tell you why - I have quite a few male friends with chest hair up to their necks, and when I can see some of that hair peeking out from the shirt V (sorry, 'peek' is such an unmasculine word but I don't know what else to call it) my eyes DO snag on that and in about one second I'm thinking of the whole bare chest. I'm not that visually oriented, but my reaction sounds similar to what guys say about the need for their women friends to dress modestly. I'll note that I only have this reaction if I can see chest hair. An inch of bare skin doesn't make my brain go there, for whatever reason.
6. Aeryn said the following at 12:46 PM on Dec 16:
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Honestly, if a muscular man wears a dress shirt with a few buttons undone, and I can see a tight undershirt (especially if it's a black one), yes, this causes me to have immediate sexual/lustful feelings.
7. Lis said the following at 12:48 PM on Dec 16:
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thank you for bringing this up! although generally men may be more visually stimulated than women, i think things can be overgeneralized to the point where the other side of an issue, like male modesty, does not get addressed.
for me, an attractive guy without a shirt is a temptation, but it is still not a huge issue for me. but really do prefer that guys wear shirts more often when it is hot out. it's not always a big temptation, but it depends more on my mood. PMS = raging hormones and at times like that it's even more of a struggle than usual. and yes, i would rather see guys keep their shirts buttoned up, but that one is not much of a tempation as being shirtless.
the thing that gets me the most is when a guy has no shirt on, and he has his pants hanging VERY low, just barely enough to cover up his stuff. honestly, the temptation of me seeing that is about the equivalent of a guy seeing a girl with a push-up bra with half her chest hanging out of a low cut shirt. i'm not trying to be crude here, but i think guys just really need to be more aware of our temptations too, so i want to put this in perspective.(same thing with swim trunks, by the way. keep them at the waist where they belong). so boys, if you do go shirtless, PLEASE pull your pants up, and wear a belt if you have to!
8. E. said the following at 12:59 PM on Dec 16:
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Thank you for addressing this. While women's modest dress is important, it's proper, I think, also to see what needs to be addressed on the male side. Yes, men may be, on the whole, more visually stimulated than women. That doesn't mean, however, that women can't be, as well. Advertisers know this. This is one reason why Abercrombie and Fitch sells their clothing by showing unclothed, airbrushed men.
As for specifics in men's dress, there are a few things that bother me. I mean this not as a generalization for all women but only the opinion of this one:
- Exposed underwear. Sagging is disgustingly high school, but underwear showing above the pants invites the eye to consider what is beneath them.
- Swagger/attitude. A man can act provocatively while wearing a three-piece suit, and a man can act modestly while wearing a sleeveless tank and basketball shorts. Walking upright, confidently, and calmly is, I believe, a modest man's--not boy's--walk. A swagger that invites a woman's appraisal of his body is not.
- Bare chest. I know, unfair, right? We ladies have to keep our tops on regardless of the weather; will you please do the same? It may not be a problem for some women. For others, like me, it occasionally is.
Modesty, I feel, is the outward expression of person's self-perception. If you are humble and comfortable with your identity as a man/woman of God, it follows that you would want to draw attention to God and not your body. This would apply to both genders.
As for heavage, I'd rather leave it in the '70s. I'm fine with it dying a disco death there.
9. Natasha said the following at 1:00 PM on Dec 16:
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I second Julie(Ginger) #5's comment about chest hair but for the opposite reason. It totally creeps me out. Can anyone say lame 80's mafia guy? Is this guy going to start wearing gold chains and using sleazy pick-up lines while chewing a toothpick? Ick. Cover it up please guys.
(I should say that there's nothing wrong with chest hair, per se, but it shouldn't be crawling out of your shirt in public)
As for the implant thing: girlie-man is definitely the word! ;)
Regarding modesty, I'd agree that the implant thing would fall under the category of immodesty. The undone shirt thing- for me that's just tacky not provocative, but I could see it being a problem for some. I agree with kb #2 that guys going topless can be a problem for us gals and I'd prefer it if the guys I knew didn't go around half-dressed(though I'd make an exception if it's only when they're wearing swim trunks at the beach/pool).
10. Irene M. said the following at 1:02 PM on Dec 16:
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Showing some "heavage" is a great way to preserve women from temptation. ;-)
Joking aside, this is a really big problem for me and the women I know. If you, as a man, want to dress modestly, then please wear a shirt! And no a "wife-beater" or whatever you call those things don't count. As a woman, I would never think of walking around topless, yet every day I see some guy exercising or puttering around without his shirt on. It's really distracting and not helpful to people struggling with lust.
11. Kristen in CA said the following at 1:34 PM on Dec 16:
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Honestly, I find it effeminate, not a display of masculinity, and utterly unattractive. A button or two, sure, why not. But deep v-necks? Yikes... Perhaps it is just me, though. What is interesting is it seems that the tight/revealing trends are aimed at men whenever big shoulder pads and more masculine fashions are popular for women (think the 80s, early 90s).
12. Lynn said the following at 1:50 PM on Dec 16:
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Good post -- please fellas, save the heavage for your wives.
Also, I think guys should remember that single women are not the only observers of your pecs and other parts. Immodest dress in men also presents a temptation/stumbling block for men struggling with homosexual attraction.
13. Naomi Elle said the following at 1:53 PM on Dec 16:
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Yes, yes, yes!!
The over-emphasis of lust as a predominantly male problem is annoying. I'm a 27-year-old young woman and I do struggle with lust.
Immodest clothes on guys include:
*Being shirtless in any context, unless you're in the pool.. and even then, things get iffy.
*Huge belt buckles.
*Low shirts.
*Pants or shorts worn very low, especially when a guy is shirtless.
Guys need to think about how to serve their sisters in Christ in this area.
Sidenote: I've found "Sex is not the problem (Lust is)" by Joshua Harris to be the hands-down, best book about purity and sexual lust.
14. EKB said the following at 2:02 PM on Dec 16:
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I have seen men with the top few buttons undone, but its been mostly older guys in Hawaiian shirts with nasty chest hair so it was just gross rather than provocative. Joking aside, that look can be tempting to girls on younger and well muscled guys. I think it is a myth that women aren't visual. (I second Nicole's example of boxer waistbands and swim trunks). The Church does a huge disservice in implying that lust is only a guy's problem, because then women feel like freaks if they struggle with it and are too ashamed to seek accountability.
Both girls and guys should ask themselves what message they are trying to send with their clothes, and it's frustrating that Christian guys think it is okay for them to dress sexily and show off their bodies. Aside from that, it seems incredibly vain, and that is not modest either!
15. justice said the following at 2:13 PM on Dec 16:
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v neck shirts have been trendy for years, why all of the sudden are they an issue. Not to mention, there are all different styles of dressing (outside of the midwest), that both sexes find appealing.
16. Paige said the following at 2:16 PM on Dec 16:
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Heavage is gross. Sorry, but it's just ... gross. The end.
17. Kellie said the following at 3:02 PM on Dec 16:
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Re #4: I recently got dental implants, as God forgot to give me a couple of adult teeth. I hope these are not what you are referring to. Although,mayb it is vanity to want to have a full set of teeth :)
18. Courtney said the following at 3:20 PM on Dec 16:
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Yes I completely agree with this and one of my thoughts is that the film industry is hugely adding to this issue. Think Borat's man-kini: no actually don't! Here in NZ, we of the rugby obsessed, rude and crude dress sense is really prolific and I see it everyday as those competing for attention take everything to extremes, male and female.
19. BDB said the following at 4:16 PM on Dec 16:
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Any minute now one of the UK or Australian readers will weigh in on those Americans and their fashion critique...
20. Al said the following at 4:26 PM on Dec 16:
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Is it called heavage because it induces heaving?
21. Katie said the following at 4:37 PM on Dec 16:
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I have a similar reaction, Julie (Ginger) [#5].
But as for the overall 70's style heavage, bleh. It's more annoying than anything else.
22. Nicole said the following at 4:42 PM on Dec 16:
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#17, I didn't mean dental implants, and I don't think it's necessarily vain to get them. I'm sure that it is much easier to eat and speak with a full set of teeth. :)
23. farmer Tom said the following at 4:45 PM on Dec 16:
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*Huge belt buckles. ???
I probably shouldn't ask, but ..... I don't get that one. Can you explain?
BTW, that's not a problem for me personally, my fat belly hangs over my belt buckle!!
24. Larissa said the following at 5:00 PM on Dec 16:
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I can't help but think of the wardrobe for the So You Think You Can Dance contestants...
25. Nicole said the following at 5:00 PM on Dec 16:
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Most of the young men I know and see around me seem to have a HUGE problem with dressing appropriately. By this I mean, taking pride in how they look and how they portray themselves to women and the world. I can't tell you how disrespected and embarrassed I've been when I spent time to look lovely and a guy shows up in dirty ripped up jeans 3 sizes too big, smelly old sneakers, an unflattering sweatshirt or some tee shirt with some offensive logo on it, unshaven and perhaps even unshowered. Ew. No effort put forth for me whatsoever, I can REALLY tell how well I'm actually liked by how nice a guy looks when showing up.
26. k.k. said the following at 5:15 PM on Dec 16:
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SMH....v-neck shirts and skinny jeans...what a combination...yikes!
27. Keith said the following at 5:38 PM on Dec 16:
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A real man is defined by his character, and not by what he looks like...
28. P&P said the following at 5:48 PM on Dec 16:
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Shirts with three or more buttons undone? Strap on a silver chain, get a "feathered" haircut and it's Scott Baio all over again......
Egads!
Now if you'll excuse me I have to go watch Mad Men. Men knew how to dress during that era.
29. Tara said the following at 5:59 PM on Dec 16:
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Something I don't think I saw mentioned in my scan down the comments - I'd like to humbly suggest that men avoid wearing clothes that are tight around the crotch (unless it's in an appropriate context, like cycling), and keep in mind your body positions even in modest jeans and shorts (legs spread wide, etc.). Situations where your clothes might become clingy or see-through (no white swim trunks, please!) should also be kept in mind. This is coming from a married woman who is grateful for how little she'd seen of the male shape before marriage! :)
Ladies, feel free to enlist as many helpful older-brother-types as you can to help enforce sag-prevention. At our youth group, the older guys often remind the younger ones to keep their pants up, and have been known to playfully "punish" them with the surprise yanking up of their trousers.
30. Ultraviolet said the following at 7:18 PM on Dec 16:
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I am so glad to hear so many other women chiming in about this! Even on other topics previously on boundless, I've felt like the only woman who mentioned this as a problem. It's always bothered me that modesty has only been an issue in the church that is largely directed at women, rather than men. I struggle very much with lust, however it's gotten to the point where I hardly notice anymore when I stumble. So it's a bit of a wake-up for me to hear how other women find it hard, and are fighting against it, when I rarely even fight against enjoying the view of an attractive man. I think what happened was I got frustrated that this was never an issue brought up in the church, and I guess I just started ignoring the fact that it really was an issue for me.
Anyway. I've been studying for exams all day, so I feel this is incoherent...but I'll just end in saying I've been encouraged to try and keep my thoughts pure after reading through the comments :)
31. Tyler said the following at 8:45 PM on Dec 16:
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#13 - I never would have thought of the Belt Buckles. Thanks ladies, for bringing up things that don't always cross the minds of us men-folk.
32. Leah said the following at 9:35 PM on Dec 16:
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We're on "the cusp" of that trend?
I'm 21, and that trend has been around for years. Perhaps it depends just how deep the neckline is.
And Pec implants? Seriously?? While I'd never do it, I can kind of understand women who get breast implants. (Some of the women.) For some really small-chested women, it can be a real hit to the self-esteem and it can make it really difficult to find clothes that look good on her. I can understand them wanting to go a bit bigger perhaps, and that's not something you can do naturally. Improving your pecs, however, is. Exercise, men. If a woman finds out you have those pecs thanks to surgery and not working out, your cred and masculinity will be out the window.
Nicole - if implants are destroying God's creation, I suppose you also think piercings are too? What about dying your hair?
33. Marie said the following at 9:56 PM on Dec 16:
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I know it's already been said, but I want to reiterate it because I think it helps make the point. I have a hard time keeping my thoughts in line when I see a guy with his shirt off, especially if he's got some muscle definition (and yes, it's especially bad if their shorts/pants are slung low on the hips). If I'm at the pool or beach and the majority of people are wearing swimwear, it's not as big of a problem. But for other situations, it's a struggle. Example: when I was in college, there would occasionally be guys playing basketball in the gym. There's a window on the second floor where you can stand and watch. Every now and then I would wander by just to see what was going on, and I have to admit that when the guys would play shirtless it was pretty tempting to let my thoughts wander. Even a tank top helps. I may be female, but I am extremely visual when it comes to things that are a turn-on, so it's frustrating that guys are often so open with their bodies.
34. Kelly-1 said the following at 11:12 PM on Dec 16:
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I'm one of those women who isn't visually motivated. If I see a man in something too low/tight/revealing, my reaction is "yuck!" rather than lustful feelings.
What does attract me is crisp business wear, but I love that kind of clothing on me as well, so maybe it's the idea of the "business world" I am attracted to? ;)
35. Emily said the following at 12:14 AM on Dec 17:
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THANK you for addressing this! I admit that I have been too shy to bring this up with my Christian brothers before (although, thankfully, for the most part they have dressed modestly anyway) but, I, as a woman, struggle with lust.
Perhaps I am the oddball out of women, but, I am driven to lust visually. It is truly a stumbling block for me to see a man without a shirt on, or with pants that ride too low. I truly have to look away if a guy has shirt that opens too low, pants that are too tight, or otherwise.
Perhaps this is just a weakness and I should get over it. But, honestly, as a woman, part of the reason I dress modestly is to protect my brothers.
I would really appreciate it if they would protect me, too.
36. Phil said the following at 12:25 AM on Dec 17:
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Firstly, i like that Courtney @18 is from NZ and is reading this - represent NZ - secondly..yea I think guys have to be modest when around girls, Im not a guy to take his top off the first chance he has (well mainly cos I don't have the upper body of a greek god, but we're working on it), but also because I realize (as do many guys now) that girls too can be visually tempted - SHOCK HORROR - would it also be such a bad thing to realize girls desire physical closeness as much as guys?? No it wouldn't but we've tried to 'manage' these desires but not allowing us to think thats how we 'should' be.
ANYWAY - Back to modesty, I liked the post @8 that talked about how a guy walks and interacts with girls - it is fully true, a guy who is all 'I am the man' isn't being modest about a) his appearance and b) his personality at all - yes I am a guy and yes I can get cocky at the best of times, hell I do get cocky, but I still try to be modest in my cockyness - as bad as that word sounds I swear it is innocent.
I can't say I've seen any guys taking things to extremes in getting females attentions, most guys I know tend strut around in front of girls topless at the beach and purposely place their game of touch in front of a group of goggling girls. In saying that girls have it worse off when it comes to dressing because us guys are visually orientated and even a pair of jeans on the right day can draw eyes.
37. Kara said the following at 1:12 AM on Dec 17:
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Usually with the modesty discussion, women are the target. Guys tend to be more visually stimulated than women. Therefore, women are told not to show cleavage or wear tight, revealing clothing.
It seems that most discussions about modesty miss the fact that women are visually attracted to men, too. The problem is that every woman is attracted differently and to varying degrees. Its not so easy to sum up. You'll find women who are attracted to arms, shoulders, backs, chests, legs, etc. If you're attracted to arms, even a well-built guy in a t-shirt can be distracting. Should we therefore say that t-shirts are immodest? Well, I think we can conclude that won't fly! However, we can say that for a Christian musician with massive biceps to wear a cut-off t-shirt on stage during a concert could be immodest.
Take a poll. How many women are distracted by a shirtless man?
38. HAP said the following at 3:16 AM on Dec 17:
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I live in Europe and here the plunging necklines are being paired with skinny jeans! Men please cover yourselves. Yes, I am a woman that stuggles with lust on occasion. And I'm married!
My husband tends to be very fashionable, but these are two things we've agree don't go into his wardrobe!
39. Esther said the following at 5:46 AM on Dec 17:
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I live in Florida where the heat during the summer makes clothing of any kind feel oppressive. Then I decided to spend much of this past summer training for a marathon with a running club. When it's 80 degrees even at 5 in the morning, no one feels like wearing a shirt. So I saw lots of shirtless guys, but it was more of a survival thing (a lot of the women ran in only a sports bra, which I have more problems with) and even so we would sweat so much that it was dripping off the edges of our shorts and sloshing in our shoes.
Oh right, the point of all this (besides how gross it can be to run in Florida in July) is to say that attitude and context has a lot to do with how provocative an outfit is. My running friends were just trying to prevent heat stress, with no intention of looking sexy. But I have seen shirtless guys who seem very aware of their attire and want attention, so they get it. To me, a guy wearing a shirt with "heavage" to get attention would probably catch my eye more than an entirely shirtless man who is just trying to stay cool.
40. Ashley :) said the following at 7:02 AM on Dec 17:
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For me it's less about the v-neck shirts on guys, and more about how they wear other stuff. There is something extremely attractive to me about guys who have a long sleeved dress shirt and tie one... who roll up the sleeves and unbutton the first button while their tie is still tied... what is it?! I'll never know. Maybe the mixture of rugged and handsome? :)
41. Jenny said the following at 8:03 AM on Dec 17:
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Here's something no one else has addressed, but it bothers me. Shorts aren't always that modest. Too many times, I've been sitting across from a guy who's wearing shorts, and given that guys don't sit like ladies (thankfully, but that's another topic), their leg is exposed up to their boxers. Not something I want to see.
42. Katrece said the following at 8:17 AM on Dec 17:
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Uughh. All I can think about is John Travolta :)
I'm so glad there's a discussion on male modesty.
Usually, when I see guys wearing too-tight shirts or trying to show too much "heavage" I laugh inwardly.
On occasion, If a guy has more than a couple shirt buttons opened, I will notice and sometimes have to fight the temptation to lust. Here is one of my idiosyncracies: a v-neck shirt (as long as it's not too low) on a guy is not the same to me as having a few too many dress-shirt buttons undone.
I think, as others have pointed out, male swimsuits can be a greater problem.
43. DEH said the following at 9:55 AM on Dec 17:
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I very much appreciate this post. I've felt for a while that the modesty debate was unnecessarily one-sided. As a previous commenter pointed out, we women have eyes too!
(And as a corollary to this discussion, my husband and I have come to the conclusion that I am actually just as visually stimulated as he is, so please don't assume that girls don't get worked up by what they see.)
I'll add my vote in for the guys to keep their shirts on. This is the one that gets to me the most. Unless you're at the pool, keep it covered please.
Also, while I think the whole "boxers showing" fad (that has lasted far, far too long) is mostly just ridiculous looking, I have seen some guys (college guys even) purposely wear their pants so low that they're actually sitting on their belt. That is way, way too much underwear showing and is totally inappropriate besides just looking completely ridiculous.
Thanks so much for this Tom! The double standard when it comes to modesty is often very disheartening to me.
44. Michela said the following at 10:45 AM on Dec 17:
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I am only speaking for myself here, but my reaction to seeing shirtless guys is "meh" (shrugs shoulders). I don't care how toned, ripped, or tan they are it's still just "meh."
Has anyone mentioned Speedos yet? Aside from being a scary flashback to bygone decades they are just GROSS! We do NOT need to see that.
Guys are definitely more visually oriented than girls. but, I do recognize that there are women who struggle visually as well.
All my husband has to do is shave and put on cologne and I completely clear my schedule. =)
45. Bethany in Denver said the following at 11:05 AM on Dec 17:
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I agree with many of the posts here regarding guys with shirts off, low-hanging pants, etc. being a temptation. Compression shorts at the gym - also a no-no!
One other thing to note: this is yet another evidence of the cultural push toward androgyny. Styles across the board are aiming toward the middle, rather than specifically masculine or feminine. I've seen middle-school couples walking on the sidewalk where I could not tell from behind which was the boy and which was the girl. Both were wearing tight "skinny jeans". It's also popular for guys to wear eyeliner now. So plunging necklines for guys is actually not surprising in light of the cultural push to erase gender.
46. Mark W said the following at 11:19 AM on Dec 17:
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@BDB #19:
If it's in regards to the heavage, it's well deserved...
@ Al #20:
I hope so. I think that's the appropriate reaction.
47. Jo said the following at 11:26 AM on Dec 17:
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farmer Tom, 23:
"*Huge belt buckles. ???
I probably shouldn't ask, but ..... I don't get that one. Can you explain?"
I imagine she meant that a huge belt buckle might draw attention to a certain area.
Not a big deal to me personally though.
48. Margaret said the following at 11:59 AM on Dec 17:
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Thank you so very much! It has always bothered me that when the topic of modesty comes up, it's always concerning women and people don't realize that men can easily dress immodestly as well, and many often do.
Leaving several buttons undone is a big distraction for me, unless the guy's wearing a T-shirt underneath, which I always appreciate. Other distractions are muscle shirts, tight pants(very disturbing), and when men wear their pants way too low. Buy yourself jeans that fit, and if you wear a belt, use it for it's designed purpose. No, I really don't want to see your boxers, so I don't care how fashionable your belt is if your pants are still sagging.
Thank you for giving the opportunity to give my viewpoint on this one.
49. Emily said the following at 12:17 PM on Dec 17:
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I just thought of this one - as a women, I've often been told that modesty is as much as you walk and hold yourself as it is clothing. SO on that note -
GUYS PLEASE - We ladies understand that every once in a while you may to *ahem* adjust... However, please do us all a favor. Go to the bathroom to do it. Or at least turn around and ask a brother to stand in front of you and shield or something (a technique I often employ when I need to adjust certain pieces of clothing).
Embarrassing as it is to admit, when you "adjust" in front of me, I can't help it - my mind automatically goes places that it shouldn't.
That, and it's gross if you're like a brother to me.
50. Sarah P. said the following at 12:20 PM on Dec 17:
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I think the very idea of "heavage" is ridiculous. I don't find it attractive at all, because to me it looks feminine. I am a woman, not a man, so I am much more attracted to masculinity. :P
Good grief, why would they get pec implants? That assumes they never intend to exercise their pecs, because if they did and thereby changed their shape, the implants would no longer look right.
I think a man with his shirt off looks nice enough, although I don't stare, if I can help it. God made him, so that is not surprising. I think there is a difference between that aesthetic appreciation and lust, however.
I may have a different perspective in general, since I like to read about exercise, nutrition, and weightlifting. I tend to notice apparent muscle composition and fitness without conscious thought. To me, a body is a body. We all have one! :D No sense in getting all het up about it! What would happen to me if I got in the habit of letting "hot" guys arouse me, and then I didn't end up with one? Not good! Better to figure out how to deal with the fact of good-looking men in a healthy way. :P
51. Marie said the following at 1:45 PM on Dec 17:
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Meh, it's not so much that I want to have sex with good looking-men. But, I want to stare at them, because they have nice bodies or more so faces, even if they are modest (in all honestly clothes don't come off). It's hardest for me not to lust, if and want to feel closeness with them.
52. Morghan said the following at 1:51 PM on Dec 17:
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Does anyone have a problem with guys wearing super tight jeans that leave NOTHING to the imagination? I don't particularly find this attractive, but it does make you think about their bodies rather than who they are. But, I agree with many of the other posters...guys, just say "no" to "heavage".
53. Jo said the following at 1:54 PM on Dec 17:
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Girls, when you say that shirtless men or whatever else tempts you to lust, what do you mean by lust? Seriously, what thoughts would be going through your mind if you were lusting? We never seem to define what we're talking about.
I thought this when someone mentioned being 'distracted' by shirtless men. Well I gotta say, I don't mind being distracted by attractive guys. Is this what we're talking about? Or are we actually meaning lust to mean sexual fantasising?
54. Christina said the following at 1:59 PM on Dec 17:
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I don't like v neck shirts. I think they are just kind of gross. The biggest thing though, is don't wear tight pants. I hate it when guys were really tight pants. You can see every bump. Sorry. It's gross. And it attracts attention. That's the only thing that really bothers me. And it seems to be the style now for guys to wear really tight clothes. It's not good at all. Not any better than the girls wearing skin tight clothes.
55. Sylvia said the following at 2:37 PM on Dec 17:
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For me, and perhaps for many women, I think that the way male immodestly affects me is different than the way it is for men, although just as real.
When a man spends time around me shirtless, or similarly under-dressed, it breaks down barriers and creates an artificial feeling of familiarity or intimacy. It is not so much that his attractiveness creates an instant sexual response, as I understand to be the case with men. It is more that so much physical knowledge of him sort of substitutes itself for actual familiarity. It sort of tricks my emotions into feeling that I have sort of a "history" with this man which creates an emotional bond. This makes it easier for me to become "hung up" on a guy.
For this reason, even though aesthetically I may find plunging necklines, immodest swimwear, and exposed underthings to be "gross", they can still stumble me sometimes.
56. Kristina said the following at 2:39 PM on Dec 17:
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I'm not worried about guys dressing modestly so much as I'm worried about them wearing clothes that fit them correctly. I don't really need to see your Calvins boys. Seriously.
I think we as women aren't as visual as guys are, so we aren't "turned on" by a little bit of male skin the way men are when women are letting it all hang out. If anything, I think I'm more turned on by a man in a well-fitting suit or in a full Firefighter's/Military uniform. =)
57. socali said the following at 2:59 PM on Dec 17:
57
The heavage could be very tempting for girls...
So please guys,treat the young ladies around you as you would want other men to treat your own sisters!!!
Don't make it harder than it has to be! Isn't that beautiful smile enough? It sure it. Honor God by helping your sisters in Christ have pure thoughts about you. Thanks!
58. Trevor Dolby said the following at 3:01 PM on Dec 17:
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Al (20): I thought of that meaning of 'heave' when I saw the title :) so it's probably as you say.
Nicole (25): I always make an effort to look nice, shave, shower, etc, and usually dress better (more formally, that is) than the girl I'm with (girls can get away with a lot more), but have often wondered if it was worth bothering. I'll keep doing it :)
Leah (32): Quite right about men getting implants, and the guys who do will lose all credibility if another _guy_ finds out, let alone a girl! Exercise is _way_ safer :)
BDB (19): I haven't seen the heavage trend here in Britain, but I possibly don't hang out with the right (wrong?) crowd. The UK club scene tends to have fairly strict dress codes, so a lot of the worse fashion ideas for guys don't make it in the door on a Friday night :) It doesn't stop bad hairstyles, of course . . .
59. Daniel B said the following at 3:20 PM on Dec 17:
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"would it also be such a bad thing to realize girls desire physical closeness as much as guys??"
NO - it would be a VERY good thing. Most guys *don't* know that girls desire physical closeness as much as we do. And, even guys like me who 'know' it often have a hard time really believing it, especially those of us for whom touch is a love language. We've mostly been told (mostly by the church) that this is something bad about us and that we'd better be prepared to not be needy about physical affection b/c girls don't care about it nearly as much.
"No effort put forth for me whatsoever, I can REALLY tell how well I'm actually liked by how nice a guy looks when showing up."
I understand your point about no effort at all, but be careful. Different people have different things that make them feel liked and different ways they assume they can make others feel liked. Some guys may honestly not know that this is a big deal to you and it might have nothing at all to do with not liking you.
I'm that way with girls - I don't care if they put effort into dressing up or looking good for me (unless it's something really formal where every single person is expected to be wearing ties/suits/gowns/prom dresses etc.) And plenty of girls who aren't visual don't care if a guy tries to look good for them so long as he takes care of basic hygiene ... a guy might be used to that and not know that you're interpreting casual clothing as dislike of you.
60. Tara said the following at 3:27 PM on Dec 17:
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To Jo (#53):
Girls mean many different things when they refer to "lust". That's part of the reason it's more difficult to really pin down and battle with lust as a woman - men experience lust fairly uniformly as visual attention followed by physical arousal, whereas women can be all over the map!
However, it doesn't matter so much exactly how one experiences lust - if it's lust, it needs to be fought against. Here are some of the things a woman might mean by "lust" (and feel free, readers, to add to this list if you want!):
- Imagining emotional closeness with a man (I stole this from #55 Sylvia)
- Unwanted sexual imagery involving the man
- Physical arousal
- Turning a quick, accidental glance into a full-on stare
- Imagining oneself on a date or in a relationship with a man
- A feeling of wanting to touch whatever body part you're seeing, even if it would be inappropriate
- Mentally "completing the image" of whatever partial body exposure you're seeing
- Getting a little emotional high out of spending time around good-looking men, for no reason other than that they're good-looking
- A desire to flirt inappropriately and show off one's own physique in response (this mutual strutting happens all the time at the beach)
I'm sure the men reading could relate to some of these, but because lust is tied so closely with emotions for women, they experience it very differently from one another. Hence why we have women on this blog saying that shirtless men give them sexual thoughts, and others saying that it's no big deal! Also, women's responses can change over time - for example, I found that dating and engagement (even though we were very chaste and didn't so much as kiss before our wedding day) "awakened" me to lust in ways that I wasn't aware of before then.
For the men, it should be enough to know that because some of your sisters experience very distracting physical arousal at the sight of you shirtless, keep it to appropriate situations, like while you're swimming.
61. Emily said the following at 3:29 PM on Dec 17:
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53, Jo -
When I say "lust" I don't mean actual mental fantasies or anything. I just get distracted, and stop thinking of them like a brother. I stop thinking about how I can serve them as a sister and how I can help bring them closer to Christ.
I get butterflies in my stomach, get hot, flustered, can't look away, that kind of thing.
If I'm already fighting feelings for a man and he dresses immodestly, later on, in weak moments, I may have a harder time fighting off actual fantasies.
62. Nicki said the following at 3:55 PM on Dec 17:
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Showing 'heavage' can most definitely be a problem, as has been already stated. And let me tell you, the more a girl likes a guy, the more provocative it is! My brother goes around the house without a shirt on fairly regularly, and it certainly means nothing to me... I can think of a couple girls that would be seriously turned on by it, though!
So yeah, keep the shirt on, and buttoned up, or another shirt on underneath.
63. Glenise said the following at 4:37 PM on Dec 17:
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My roomate pointed out that that's one of the great things about living in Minnesota. People tend to get modest real quick when temperatures go below freezing. Yep, nothing like almost six months of visual purity (at least, in public).
Chest hair = bad fashion statement.
Chest hair + tight pants = oh, SOOO wrong.
I hope and pray that this is one trend that will die quickly and stay dead.
64. Emma said the following at 6:26 PM on Dec 17:
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#55 I never thought of that, but I totally agree with you! One of the boys in my church walks around without his shirt at every possible opportunity (not actually at church, but often at youth group parties, etc), which is *very* distracting as well as having a similar effect to what you said.
As for pants hanging way to low with the boxers showing? ugh. that doesn't attract me, it disgusts me. a lot. seriously. pull up your pants.
As for pec implants. no. If you look strong, it better be because you've worked for it. Otherwise it's just vain and arrogant, and repulsive.
65. Abby said the following at 6:38 PM on Dec 17:
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As regards Jo's comment (#53), I think Sylvia (#55) explained it well--it's not that I have an "instant sexual response" to seeing a guy shirtless. It's that it seems to create a false sense of intimacy. I'd normally only associate seeing a shirtless man wandering around me if we lived together and were married and so also had that emotional bond.
I believe that for many women (though not all), we don't mean "lust" as "sexual fantasies". I'm of an artistic sensibility that appreciates the male (and the female, for that matter) forms because they are human and beautiful. Context is everything, I think. If a guy's shirtless because he's working outside doing grunt-work or playing sports of something, and the state of shirtlessness is for comfort, it doesn't bother me at all.
For myself, I do not usually have problems with seeing men partially clothed, or in tight clothes, or anything like that. The only way I'd ever want (in a sexual sense) to see a naked man at all is if he were my husband--someone I first have emotional intimacy with. Someone who has proved that he wants to commit to me and cherish me and respect me.
I think that's what it comes down to--women lust by imagining situations where they receive tenderness and care (this is my issue). For some women seeing a man shirtless imitates that for the reasons I gave above (some of us can manage the thoughts without seeing any man at all!) At the same time, though, the women don't have to deal with affirming or respecting the man giving this intimacy to them. It's just as self-centered and sinful as a man's sexual fantasies, but not typically condemned, because it can't as easily be labeled "revolting", which something like porn can. I firmly believe that it IS just as much a sin, though. This is just part of the reason why I hate the Twilight saga--because its whole purpose is to create those emotional, angsty intimate feelings. It's emotional smut, rather than visual.
About this post itself--heavage does not cause me to lust. It just looks effeminate to me (and therefore unattractive)--same with skinny jeans. At college I've seen my fair share of guys in tight, crotch-clutching pants that show boxers, and heavage-revealing shirts, and honestly, it's never caused a problem for me--it just looks dumb.
Somebody else said something about rolled-up dress-shirt sleeves being attractive. AMEN, SISTAH. It makes the man wearing it look put-together, but manly and confident.
Pardon, I think the reason my comment is so long is because I'm procrastinating on working on a Literary Criticism essay due for a final exam tomorrow morning. Oh, dear.
66. Ultraviolet said the following at 7:04 PM on Dec 17:
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Jo (#53);
For me personally, when I'm 'distracted' (to put it lightly) by an attractive or shirtless guy, I am sexually fantasizing.
67. Peter said the following at 10:41 PM on Dec 17:
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Ladies.
My compliments on the openness. SIt is smething to keep in mind when I'm encouraging the younger men.
Clothes may not define character, but they certainly help to reveal it. IMO, the extremes of dress mostly reveal immaturity and insecurity.
Peter
68. Michelle said the following at 10:45 PM on Dec 17:
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Amen!! I've been wanting someone to bring up this topic rather than denying it! Girls definitely can struggle with lust and the generalization isn't helping. We need to acknowledge male modesty too =)
69. EKB said the following at 10:56 PM on Dec 17:
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Jo (53):
I don't want to go into too much detail because I'm not sure this is a completely anonymous place, but by lust I mean sexual thoughts and the things that can go with that. Also, I don't know exactly how to explain this, but seeing a bunch of attractive guys shirtless or going into a store like A&F with posters of minimally dressed guys seems to make me increasingly aware of my sex drive and harder to keep my thoughts pure for the rest of the day or even longer.
Thanks to the grace of God I've made a lot of progress in overcoming lust in the last few years. I know not all girls struggle with this, but I would bet that a significant percentage do. It was doubly damaging to my spiritual life, because not only does the sin itself separate from God, the shame that women don't struggle makes it hard to seek accountability.
70. Happygirl said the following at 9:09 AM on Dec 18:
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yeah, what bothers me is belt buckles when the guy's pants are already semi low, because if it's a huge shiny sort of buckle it draws attention- much like words written right across a girl's chest or her bottom. the other major thing is how a lot of guys sit. as a girl, i'd never sit like that for the single reason of honouring my brothers. I'd hugely appreciate if they'd honour me that way to, and just be more aware of what they're doing and what effect they can have.
71. Margaret said the following at 9:11 AM on Dec 18:
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I have to admit, although there are some men who might catch my eye, the truth is the ones who are overtly trying to get sexual attention, or following one particular fad or fashion to a T...they make me giggle.
The very idea of these new styles makes me laugh.
Sorry guys.
I think Sylvia explained the problem for women very well. It's not necessarily an instant sexual response, but a lack of appropriate boundaries that leads to thoughts of intimacy in the wrong context.
A couple years ago I had to ask my wonderful (buff!) husband to put a t-shirt or something over his tank top, even though it was a very hot summer. There was a young girl we were helping out, due to her family issues, and she could not take her eyes off him. Yikes. I think though, that the shirt thing was only part of it, and that lacking any decent males in her family and history, she was sexualizing her need for that. You men need to be careful too, about the way you present yourselves, as well as about the way you relate to women.
72. Loris said the following at 9:20 AM on Dec 18:
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Kristina #56. I agree, well-fitting, stylish clothes on an athletic frame definitely piques my interest. It tells me that here's a man who takes care of himself and pays attention to detail-and I bet he'd treat a woman with care too. That's quite a turn-on.
73. dana111 said the following at 11:36 AM on Dec 18:
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#72 said:
"I agree, well-fitting, stylish clothes on an athletic frame definitely piques my interest. It tells me that here's a man who takes care of himself and pays attention to detail-and I bet he'd treat a woman with care too."
That is probably one of the worst assumptions I've ever heard. Ever. Give me the soft, quiet, fashion-challenged man in the corner ever time :)
74. endlessnights said the following at 12:17 PM on Dec 18:
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#72, I'd have to agree with dana111 - that is THE worst assumption you can make, I know many good looking christian guys who work out and tone their bodies out of vanity, not out of care for their body, their hair is always 'perfect', they are always 'in style' and will quite often have an attitude about them that is unappealing and they would make the worst husbands at this point in their life because their attitude is self-centered...
Im not saying working out is bad, but for the right reasons, I work out because I desire to lead a physically active and enjoyable live, a toned body at the end of it all is just a bonus.
75. Loris said the following at 2:08 PM on Dec 18:
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dana111 and endlessnights, Guess I've been reading too much Art of Manliness. There's a difference between a vain peacock and a man who takes care of his body and dresses in a way that shows he respects the frame and face the Lord has given him. The second man is the one I'm talking about. By athletic, I don't mean thin and ripped, necessarily. People who exercise regularly carry themselves with more ease than those who are sedentary. Their clothing tends to fit better. They hold their heads higher. That's attractive. In my circle of friends, the guys who like to look nice are usually confident in their personality and abilities and are more respectful of women, whereas the schlubs tend to be unmotivated and a more than a little bit chauvinist.
Yes, I know some clotheshorse, gym rat, chauvinist, Adonis-types. And they're easy to spot. I'm not talking about them.
Who doesn't appreciate a well-dressed man who carries himself well?
76. Laura said the following at 2:43 PM on Dec 18:
76
Lots of great comments here. I'm with most of the women on this forum in that seeing a shirtless guy can potentially be a MAJOR distraction, particularly in non-fitness settings. But something that can be just as distracting (if not more) is conversing with a guy who has an "immodest" heart. By that I mean lots of flirting and sexual undertones. I think that that can sometimes be harder to deal with as a woman because flirting gives an illusion of an emotional bond, an emotional bond that simply does not exist. The phrase "You don't know me like that" comes to mind.
As for "heavage," I don't particularly care for the trend. I think it looks a bit immature on a guy and makes it look like he's trying too hard. I think it also is usually seen in clubs, so any guy who participates in the trend may be mistaken for the clubbing-type. BTW, I don't know how many guys ever liked the whole metro-sexual thing. But most women, like myself, prefer that men look like men. There are few things more attractive than seeing a man who embraces his God-given masculinity. And there are also few things that are more distracting (and not in a good way) than seeing men with makeup on and tight pants. Please guys, we love you because you are guys and are DIFFERENT. There are still women out there who prefer masculinity over androgyny.
dana (#73), I'm with you in that I prefer men who don't spend an inordinate amount of time on their appearance. I think everyone should strive to take care of their bodies and dress appropriately. But one of the things that I appreciate about guys is that they *typically* are not as concerned about fashion and trends as women are. Spending time with a guy who dresses appropriately for the occasion but who is not overly concerned about appearances is somewhat comforting to me. As a woman, I know that my friends and I can sometimes obsess about our appearance. So spending time with a guy who could care less about whether my earrings go with my bag is actually refreshing. There's less pressure. Just like many guys appreciate that girls are *typically* less competitive than their male counterparts (I know I'm brushing with broad strokes here), I appreciate men who remind me (either in word or just by their lifestyle) that looks aren't everything.
So, yeah, bring on the slightly fashion-challenged man who isn't afraid to get a little dirt on him. When you are with a guy like that, you can't help but thank God for making men the way that He did. And just to clarify, I am not trying to suggest that all women are obsessed about appearances and only men are immune. I know that there are many men and women who are just the opposite. I am speaking in generalities.
77. BDB said the following at 4:32 PM on Dec 18:
77
One of the interesting discussions at the beginning of a mission trip was between the women - some of whom had brought cosmetics and some of whom said, "It's a mission trip to a really humid country - why bother?"
After a few weeks in country, what's comfortable starts to matter more than what is stylish, at least to some of us. On the way back, at the Taipei airport, I had a really interesting lunch with a Canadian who had also spent a few weeks in the country doing medical outreach.
It wasn't until I got home and cleaned up and did laundry that I realized - hey, I just had lunch with someone, we both looked like slobs, and we didn't care. Huh.
78. Marie said the following at 9:30 PM on Dec 18:
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Sylvia #55,
Well said! I think you articulated what I feel without me even realizing what I felt. For me, there's something very personal about seeing a guy with his shirt off, especially if it's not at the pool.
As for lust, well, I struggle with it both in a visual/physical attraction way, and an emotional fantasy way. I guess I would say that maybe it doesn't matter exactly what someone means by lust, if what they basically mean is that their mind starts to go in a direction it shouldn't, be it more emotional or sexual. Both are dangerous, although I've never felt that women are taken all that seriously in this area. I'm seeing a lot of comments saying things like, "I know women aren't as visual as men, but I struggle with this." Women can be visually stimulated, too. My guess is that it's a lot more common than we think, or even than it used to be, because of how media-saturated we are. We see so many visual advertisements that we sort of get programmed to notice things visually.
79. Jo said the following at 1:05 AM on Dec 19:
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Thanks for all the replies to my question.
Marie, "I guess I would say that maybe it doesn't matter exactly what someone means by lust"
This seems to be the sentiment of many women here, but I think it does. Emotional fantasising and feeling an inappropriate intimacy may well be wrong and harmful, but they're not examples of lust in my opinion - in the context of relationships, lust is always defined as sexual. To call both sins by the same name is just confusing, and it seems more to be an attempt to say that women struggle with the same things as men or to shoehorn emotional fantastising into Jesus' prohibition of lust than anything else. We don't all struggle with the same things, and that's okay - it doesn't mean we have to judge those who sin in ways we don't. And we don't have to find a direct Jesus quote for emotional fantasising in order to demonstrate that it's a problem. Let's just call things by their proper names.
80. Paul said the following at 7:22 AM on Dec 19:
80
Until recently I never even considered going without a shirt, due to 1) being 35kg (70lbs) overweight and 2) significant acne scarring on my upper back.
Number 1 has been addressed (praise God!) but not number 2, and so while I was slowly getting comfortable with the idea of taking my shirt off now and then, now I'm heading back in the other direction. Never mind - at least I don't have plunging neckline clothes to get rid off! (Shudders at the thought...)
81. Joel said the following at 5:41 PM on Dec 20:
81
There seems to be few guys posting on this one. First of all, I think that both brothers and sisters in Christ need to be challenged on an on-going basis on their modesty. I think I see a worsening trend in the church for both men and women in terms of their modesty of dress. As a man, I believe men need to be leaders and set an example. I agree that the issue has been mainly one-sided in how it is addressed.
Modesty is something that I had to deal with in my own life. I got to the point where I would take my shirt off to play ball and was dressing immodestly. Then about 4 years ago, I went to visit my cousins that would be considered Old-Order Mennonites. I spent 3 months with them and was challenged very much on how I dressed.
I think low cut tops are just simply immodest and it is a shame that instead of encouraging the ladies to dress more appropriately men are now also wearing them, not to mention the tight pants...which is just nasty.
I also believe that we are excusing immodestly by categorizing it in an "appropriate context". One thing that my eyes were opened to while staying in this Christian community is that men and women don't need to swim together and if you got to take your shirt off it is time to stop running or get out of the game and take a rest and cool off.
I want to thank those ladies who shared some of the things that made them struggle as much of it was news to me. God Bless!
82. Sarah J. said the following at 6:17 PM on Dec 20:
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I'm surprised that most men haven't realized how aroused females can become upon seeing the male physique. Similar to others' experience, I once went to a youth-group retreat where swimming was involved and I ended up not joining in because the young men were shirtless. Needless to say, I retreated from the retreat until everyone had their clothes back on.
I'd have to say that a guy fully clothed (e.g., suit and tie) can be extremely attractive and equally arousing as a half-naked man.
If the clothes fit a man well, I not only admire how different his form is but also how complementary it is to a woman's--thank God! In this way, I don't want to have sex with Suit&Tie, but maybe hold hands with him a little and congratulate him for wearing clothes!
And on a related note, I'm reminded of how God designed the males of the animal kingdom to be so outwardly beautiful--and the lady animals dig it. Also, no v-neck shirts were involved!
83. lizzi said the following at 9:18 PM on Dec 20:
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I don't have as much of a problem with seeing "heavage" probably because I am looking for a whole lot more than that. However... One disturbing thing, eye catching, but not really enjoyable is men wearing tight pants! They make your eyes catch at very inappropriate areas. That to me is just at bad as women and cleavage.
84. Daniel B said the following at 1:33 AM on Dec 27:
84
<< One of the interesting discussions at the beginning of a mission trip was between the women - some of whom had brought cosmetics and some of whom said, "It's a mission trip to a really humid country - why bother?" >>
The women who said 'why bother' are the ones most guys I know would be more likely to be attracted to.
<< I'm surprised that most men haven't realized how aroused females can become upon seeing the male physique. >>
Why surprised? How would men know this? Nobody ever tells us this stuff. The church acts like only guys struggle visually. A lot of girls act like physical affection and looks are way less important to them than to men.
All the comments on this thread have me taken aback b/c until now my experience has been the opposite of this.
<< I also believe that we are excusing immodestly by categorizing it in an "appropriate context". >>
I agree - water doesn't suddenly make it ok to walk around in what's no different than just having your underwear on.
<< if you got to take your shirt off it is time to stop running or get out of the game and take a rest and cool off. >>
That's kind of weird to say. It's pretty much banning a lot of men from playing sports in the southern half of the US b/c you really don't cool off unless you go indoors. Why take a rest? The point of exercising is to actually exercise!
85. khalil said the following at 12:14 AM on Dec 28:
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I was a groomsman at a friend's wedding back in 2007. It was a themed wedding (renaissance, but it worked for them as a couple, even if it was something I wouldn't have chosen). Us groomsmen had to wear what I can only call a male blouse, with a bit of a plunging neckline. Couldn't stand it. When it was delivered to me and I tried it on I immediately worked on sewing about an inch of the neckline up/together to provide more coverage. It wasn't perfect but I didn't feel as exposed...which is weird considering swimming isn't too much an issue for me. I still laugh about it some now, a man sewing up an immodest neckline :)
86. HAP said the following at 10:17 AM on Dec 28:
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#85 Good for you khalil! I like the blousey type shirts...but on my husband only. :)
87. Joel V said the following at 4:17 PM on Dec 29:
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Daniel (#84), I am surprised that you appear to agree with me in regards to swim-wear and yet you find my further comment on guys being shirtless to be "weird" (see #81). It is certainly not banning anyone from playing sports to say they should keep their shirt on. If it is only guys around then you might say it is an appropriate context.
I believe that it is immodest for both men and women to go topless. And I believe that as men, we should be leading women in modesty by example.