Should She Be A Doctor? by Heather Koerner on 12/15/2009 at 1:59 PM

One thing we really emphasize here at Boundless is intentionality. In your walk with Christ. In your church body. In your relationships.

I, in particular, have written quite a bit about intentionality as a woman. Planning your career, education and debt in order to give yourself more choices as you enter the child-rearing years.

So, I found a recent interview over at True Woman blog interesting. Paula Hendricks is asking Carolyn McCulley (a frequent Boundless contributor) and Mary Kassian a question along the same lines.

Here's the question:

"I have a really smart friend. She's attending a prestigious college and planning to be a doctor. But she's wrestling a little bit right now with whether or not, as a woman, she should be pursuing that career because she hopes someday to be a wife and a mom ... bottom line, should she change her major or do you think it's possible to have both -- to have a demanding career and to have a husband and kids?"

Here's the answer. (Carolyn gives her perspective first; Mary follows.)

What do you think about their answers? Would you have added anything?

HT: Solo Femininity

Should She Be A Doctor? by Heather Koerner on 12/15/2009 at 1:59 PM

One thing we really emphasize here at Boundless is intentionality. In your walk with Christ. In your church body. In your relationships.

I, in particular, have written quite a bit about intentionality as a woman. Planning your career, education and debt in order to give yourself more choices as you enter the child-rearing years.

So, I found a recent interview over at True Woman blog interesting. Paula Hendricks is asking Carolyn McCulley (a frequent Boundless contributor) and Mary Kassian a question along the same lines.

Here's the question:

"I have a really smart friend. She's attending a prestigious college and planning to be a doctor. But she's wrestling a little bit right now with whether or not, as a woman, she should be pursuing that career because she hopes someday to be a wife and a mom ... bottom line, should she change her major or do you think it's possible to have both -- to have a demanding career and to have a husband and kids?"

Here's the answer. (Carolyn gives her perspective first; Mary follows.)

What do you think about their answers? Would you have added anything?

HT: Solo Femininity

Comments

[1. BDB said the following at 2:16 PM on Dec 15:]

1

The Angkor Hospital for Children in Cambodia is run by a husband/wife team. Both are physicians. The hospital hosts a lot of surgeons who come in on short-term trips and they line up a bunch of patients who need that specialty. And those short-term surgeons teach the local Cambodian nationals how to do the procedure when the Western doctors are gone.

I'm sure if you e-mailed them, they'd be happy to give a realistic explanation of the advantages and disadvantages.

The debt discussion is good. Avoid debt.

Lots and lots and lots of smart women switch from medical school to nursing or allied health - such as Audiology or Optometry - because such careers make good use of a scientific mind while providing very flexible career arrangements. About 70% of Audiologists and Optometrists are women - moms working and job-sharing part time but making as much as a part-time doctor as many full-time office workers.

Also consider Pharmacy, which requires a solid preparation such as a Chemistry degree, but offers flexible career choices since many pharmacists now work for companies like Rite-Aid, CVS or Costco.

Just avoid the student loan debt so that you have flexibility to choose those part time options.

[2. Julie said the following at 3:05 PM on Dec 15:]

2

Hmmm...that's tricky. I would think the toughest aspects of medicine to integrate with motherhood would be high student loan debt and also the work schedule. And a big one could be waiting so long to have children that fertility becomes an issue. That said, one of my friends is a female doctor and she works part-time. However, her husband has a fairly flexible job (teacher), and also she does not live and work in the US. Integrating work and motherhood (even a demanding career like medicine) is easier to do if you live in a western country with generous maternity leave, a very positive view of job shares, and universal healthcare (both parents could work part-time if that worked best). Also, I imagine her student loans are less than an American doctor's, but then her salary is lower too.

It could also be that God would call a woman to the mission field, another place where it's often easier to be a working mother.

It would be sad to not have the contributions of women in fields lik medicine, law, academics, etc. That said, I am glad I have a less demanding career that can be done flexibly and also put on hold.

[3. Andrea-Elena said the following at 4:38 PM on Dec 15:]

3

Interesting that you'd post this today, after I just watched the live simulcast of Living in Emergency: Stories of Doctors Without Borders with some friends last night. On the way home, my best friend commented that we need more Christians doing things like that. Now... MSF (Médecines Sans Frontières - Doctors Without Borders, which was started in and is headquartered in France) wouldn't be ideal for a woman who was trying to raise kids (they don't send the families with the volunteers), but medical missions, as BDB described, around the world vary. And not only do we need doctors but also those who will spread the gospel as they care for the physical needs of people.

I hear that endocrinology also is a great field for women who want to be doctors, wives, and mothers.

I agree with Julie -- our world still needs the contributions of women gifted to work in fields that in prior eras were seen as for men only, but the work can be chosen and done in ways that the woman can be flexible. Childrearing is only for a season in a woman's life; those skills and experience that she trained for and gained in her education years will still be valuable when her nest is "empty."

We can't have "it all." Especially not all at once. But we can have a lot of what we dream of doing and having in life. But one must choose. And every choice means that you give up another option.

And not everyone must have the same life. (Just as not all of us are called and gifted to be doctors!!)

[4. Kellie said the following at 4:45 PM on Dec 15:]

4

I know plenty of female doctors with children, so it is possible.
But if you want to be able to focus more on your family, a less demanding field might be better.

Nursing and the allied health fields are good alternatives and worth looking into.

[5. Lindsay said the following at 4:50 PM on Dec 15:]

5

I went through the Pre-Med curriculum at Notre Dame and while I elected to put my degree to work in a more consultative business-oriented practice, many of my friends went to Medical School. It is a long and expensive journey. One that will be extremely challenging and difficult if the commitment is not 100%. Ultimately, that's what led me in different directions. While I felt called to practice medicine, I had serious concerns about the sacrifices and outcomes. However, for those people (women AND men) who can resolve the the challenges... why not go for it?! The world needs intelligent and caring physicians and it's so awesome that women have that opportunity today!

Women can choose specialities with shorter residencies and more flexible working hours. Personally, I think women are also particularly well suited to fields like pediatrics and family practice... especially if they are mothers!

[6. anonymous said the following at 5:49 PM on Dec 15:]

6

I'm a young woman pursuing graduate education.

This definitely strikes a nerve with me and brings waves of sadness, gratefulness, indignation, and wisdom all at once. If only we all had this comprehensive a perspective in setting out into our careers and life paths.

I was raised with the encouragement that I can be anything that I want to be. And I didn't doubt it until Boundless. Boundless has shown me (or rather made me face the reality) that by saying "yes" to a career or a certain life-path, that I am effectively saying "no" to another.

Now, I worry and fear (two sins, I know) that I cannot both accomplish my academic and intellectual goals AND fall in love and be a good wife and mom. And this is causing me no small amount of grief and pre-mature pain.

But it DOES happen, quite often, that successful businesswomen with impressive jobs do raise emotionally healthy children who love God and have Godly, if imperfect, marriages. I would really like to hear the perspective of someone who has done so.

[7. Befuddled said the following at 5:49 PM on Dec 15:]

7

What about men?

Should men avoid medical school because of time commitments encroaching on their families? Please, let's not be sexist by giving into archaic social constructs of the family system.

[8. C. U. said the following at 6:31 PM on Dec 15:]

8

I would advise to pursue the most desirable doctorate possible as hard as she can. There is no promise she will be married in a couple of years (how many readers are 30 and single?). But if she finds a man, gets married, and has a kid but no degree—it is a win. If she gets her PhD—it is a win. Like I tell people, ‘if you don’t do anything; nothing will happen’.
On a side note, I know a number of people who have gotten advanced degrees while married and/or working, myself included.

[9. Kelly said the following at 8:50 PM on Dec 15:]

9

Med school is a hard road filled with sacrifice, and it’s one I wouldn’t recommend a Christian woman embark on without God’s direction. I’m a married woman physician with a lot of debt in the midst of residency (that means 60-80 hr work weeks!), but I’m confident this is where God wants me, partly because my training has been achieving sanctification in my life almost as effectively as my marriage has. My advice is not to pursue an MD out of selfish ambition. It has to be for God. I spend sleepless nights caring for others’ sick children while postponing having my own. And somehow, I hear God telling me that’s exactly how He wants me to serve him right now. We’re on a self-imposed tight budget to pay back our debt, but my future job security and flexibility are great. My husband’s career is on the back burner while he follows my career geographically, but I praise God for my husband’s opportunities to witness at his temporary factory jobs. We’ll still likely have a couple children before I’m 30, and be out of debt in less than 15 years. You just can’t be fooled into thinking you can do it all. There will be sacrifices on both ends- maybe waiting longer to have kids, maybe having trouble finding a husband while you study 24/7, definitely forgoing a career in neurosurgery, or in my case, just not pursuing a subspecialty career right away. Balancing the career and family is hard, but in my case, it works because of God.

[10. diana said the following at 8:54 PM on Dec 15:]

10

I personally would not attempt it, but obviously that's an individual choice. I've worked as a nurse practitioner for years and functioned much in the same capacity as a physician. While enjoyable and an outlet for service to others, it is incredibly difficult to maintain my primary responsibilities in the home. I can NOT imagine holding the even more demanding position of being a doctor. I would not even want to....! Guess I've worked too close to the fire for too long, to want to actually jump in : )

There are some women who are excellent multitaskers and who can handle the pressures of a high profile job like medicine. I acknowledge my own limitations and realize that I am not one of those women. However, I can work in a very closely related field and satisfy my interests in that way.

One caveat though...if I ever want to stop working, I'd be hard put to be able to afford to keep up all my licensures, malpractice insurance, prescriptive fees, and continuing education costs on my own. These are currently covered by my employer, and just the cost of staying certified, so as not to lose my years of hard work, is staggering. Plus, there are plenty of days when I long to be a homemaker and devote my time and talents to my family. However, because I have the skills, I'm expected to use them; and because I can earn good money, I am expected (and needed) to do so. My accomplishments are also my chains to the workplace : ) I kind of envy a friend whose husband married her knowing she didn't work outside the home, and she is not expected to. Though I enjoy my work, sometimes I wish I'd been a tad less ambitious in some regards.

Consider all the factors, girls.

[11. Lynn said the following at 9:31 PM on Dec 15:]

11

In response to this topic, blogger Homemaker, MD (http://homemakermd.com/) posted a link to her blog on Carolyn McCulley's site.

Her response is the most insightful and thorough treatment of this topic that I've ever seen. I found her perspective invaluable(she is a medical doctor who left the practice to stay home with her daughter).

She clearly has a high view of the calling to be a wife and mother, but she also provided sound support for women to pursue their education. Though Kassian and McCulley gave good answers, I felt that Homemaker, MD's thoughts were more complete. She fully considered the range of a woman's motivations for considering medical school. She also presented some valid counter-arguments to the prevalent ideas that attending medical school necessarily means that a woman will have fewer opportunities to form relationships that can lead to marriage. Also, her response includes important reminders of the many ways that a woman's education can add value to society as well as to her family. For example, she notes that her medical education makes her uniquely positioned to support her husband who is also a doctor.

Her response is detailed, thoughtful and thorough so I won't attempt to reproduce it here. I will just reiterate that it is the best Christian blog entry I've ever seen on this topic.

The bottom line is that a woman has to consider her gifts, abilities, desires and options prayerfully in consultation with trusted mentors, family members, pastors etc., and then step out in faith on the path that she believes is best.

[12. Phoebe said the following at 10:49 PM on Dec 15:]

12

This is a question I have wondered about. I myself am in music, but I know a woman who is studying to be an OB-GYN doctor. She got married right as she started med school. Her husband comitted to help and support her in the process. He has moved with her when she needed to move. Needless to say, they haven't had children yet and probably will not be able to for many years. I'm not sure what I think about this. It seems like an inversion of the design-- the woman encouraging her husband in his work, and the couple receiving children as blessings from the Lord. And her husband is very gifted in many ways-- I'm not saying it's a waste of his gifts to subordinate his plans to hers, because he has stayed active. But I just don't know if I would recommend this path to others.

When is it right for a woman or a couple to choose career plans over God's design for having children?

[13. mission field mama said the following at 11:29 PM on Dec 15:]

13

I just have to comment on the assumption made by #2 that it is easier to be a working mother on the mission field. Quite the contrary.

Learning a new language. Shopping in a new culture. Often multiple times a week out of necessity because your fridge is so stinkin small or because it's the only way things will stay fresh. Homeschooling, which is a reality in many of the "front lines" positions now being pursued by missions boards. It is certainly not any easier to be a "working mom" on the mission field and actually, could be several levels more difficult when you factor in language learning, culture stress, and the stress on the MK.

[14. P&P said the following at 6:03 AM on Dec 16:]

14

If this young woman has the talent, drive and "call" to become a physician, she should do it. I honestly believe that if she were to abandon that path, she wouldn't be as good a mother. She'd be frustrated and resentful that she wasn't using her full talents.

There are ways to avoid at least some of the debt associated with med school: choosing one affiliated with a state university, which offers lower tuition, living in a less expensive area, even getting into programs where your loans are forgiven if you practice in a rural area or free clinic for a period of time. There's also the military, but you do risk being sent into Iraq or Afghanistan these days.

It's also possible to become a nurse practicioner, physcian's assitant, physical thereapist, occupational therapist, psychiatric social worker as well as dozens of other jobs associated with the medical field.

But if your dream is to become a doctor, go for it.

[15. Alicia said the following at 7:45 AM on Dec 16:]

15

I was in this same position when I was in college. I struggled with figuring out if it was possible to merge my two desires. I finally realized that it is possible to have a career as a physician and be a mom, but I didn't want to have to work so hard to make it feasible. I didn't want to always feel like I wasn't able to give 100% to my job or my family.
So I decided to become a dietitian instead. I definitely make way less money, but I like what I do, and I can easily take an extended break to stay home when my husband and I have kids, and still keep up my RD credentials.
Sometimes it's frustrating to feel like I could have done more, particularly on days where I'm feeling less respected in my career, but when I really analyze why I'm feeling that way, it comes down to pride. I want people to be impressed with what I do, or to automatically think that I must be very smart. Pursuing a medical career for those reasons would be a terrible mistake and only feeding my sinful nature.

[16. RLynn said the following at 7:52 AM on Dec 16:]

16

Interesting comments that Mary and Carolyn have made...as someone who made this choice years ago, here's my two cents: I went to a Christian college thinking about 3 areas: medicine, nursing or Christian Education--in some ways, it's turned out that I've been involved in all 3. I chose nursing for several reasons: my grades were ok, but I realized very soon that I might need to spend extra time to get into med school, and was it worth it? Also, I wasn't sure if I wanted to be making life and death decisions for other people. Thirdly, I wanted to get married and have kids, perhaps serve overseas--and I thought that nursing would be "less threatening" a degree to have than a medical degree for a future husband and that it was much more flexible--I could leave the profession, come back to it, work part-time, etc. There was also a comment about going to medical school later on--it's a little harder to do this, but not impossible...my sister went back to medical school in her 30's--some schools won't even interview you--they don't like "mature" students, where some treasure what your life experiences bring to the profession. Well, all these years later, I'm still single, and many of my friends who went to med school are married and have kids and work creatively to juggle home and job. One of the speakers talked about not having the opportunity to meet someone during med school--that's not necessarily true--turns out that doctors marry other doctors now, not nurses. I go to church with a couple where they met in the registration line in med school on the first day of class! Anyway, nursing turned out to be a great choice for me--I went back to graduate school and now have spent time on the mission field, and am employed by a major medical school as a continuing education instructor. All this to say, that if the Lord is leading her to med school AND He has a family planned for her, that it will work out.

[17. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:34 AM on Dec 16:]

17

Befuddled (#7) said:

"Should men avoid medical school because of time commitments encroaching on their families? Please, let's not be sexist by giving into archaic social constructs of the family system"

The difference is that on the whole, men are expected by society to be out working and supporting a family. SAHD's are not the norm. Honestly, do most women including yourself (I assume you are one) find it attractive when a man says outright while dating, "My goal one day is to be a stay at home dad raising the kids while my wife brings home the bacon."

This leads us to only two solutions according to your reasoning then. Either no one becomes physicians because it's too stressful for families, or only single people can go into the profession. Both alternatives border on absurdity.

If a woman wants to go to med/law/business school and become a high powered doctor/lawyer/CEO, that's her preroggative. I don't see any strong Biblical objections to it. But I do believe that many (women and men) do not always consider the cost and impacts that their choices can have on their lives, and thus may limit their opportunities (children, financial freedom, etc.) later in life.

[18. BDB said the following at 9:55 AM on Dec 16:]

18

Befuddled (#7) wrote:

>>What about men?

Should men avoid medical school because of time commitments encroaching on their families?<<

If they don't think about it and focus solely on their career, they will probably end up divorced because their family gets tired of them never being around.

[19. Irene M. said the following at 9:57 AM on Dec 16:]

19

Befuddled (#7), ditto. How exactly do all of those men care for their children when working such long hours?

[20. Julie said the following at 10:04 AM on Dec 16:]

20

#13 Missionfield mama: Good points! I guess I was thinking of missionary friends I have known. They found people to help with housework and childcare at very affordable rates. Also, the parents themselves are able to be a team with work/family because they can both work reduced hours.

[21. Irene M. said the following at 10:15 AM on Dec 16:]

21

"Honestly, do most women including yourself (I assume you are one) find it attractive when a man says outright while dating, "My goal one day is to be a stay at home dad raising the kids while my wife brings home the bacon."

YES! I entered the dating look for someone who wouldn't necessarily be a SAHD, but who loved children, wanted to spend time with them, and was supportive of my ambition. Lucky for me, I'm now engaged to someone who wants an educated and successful wife. He'll never be a SAHD, but his career gives him more flexibility than mine and he's 100% dedicated to being a (future) dad.

One thing that is really helpful. Is that my fiance doesn't want to stay in his career forever. He's happy in his industry and wants to stay in it for quite some time, but later in life wants to go on to graduate school and change careers. My success would allow me to support him and our family, just as he will be supporting me through law school. In that regards, my work would increase my family's freedom and would enrich my husband's life.

[22. Tami said the following at 10:30 AM on Dec 16:]

22

Mike T (17) -- I follow some of your argument, but wanted to point out: as evidenced by the women who have written here, not every "...woman [who] wants to go to med... school" does so because she wants to "...become a high powered doctor..." Many attend because they feel an incredible burden to serve the least of these, whether children and underpriviledged women in this country, or people in countries where adequate medical care is a rarity. They really do feel called by God to serve as doctors or nurses. And many do serve with husbands -- I think of Drs. Reginald and Catherine Hamlin (featured in the MARVELOUS documentary, "A Walk to Beautiful"), who worked in Addis Ababa conducting surgeries on impoverished women who suffered from fistulas.

So I agree, you really have to count the cost before entering the profession, and the education involved with it. But, it need not necessarily be a choice driven by greed or a desire for power or status.

[23. Ambrosia said the following at 11:32 AM on Dec 16:]

23

Wow so many perspectives.... well here's mine.

I am a Christian, a female, a physician and a pregnant wife.

First let it be completely understood that It is my soul felt belief that God called me into the field of medicine to share the message of his love in a more "physical' sense; all the same he gave me the responsibility of choosing the appropriate field. This responsibility led me to choose family medicine rather than the more intense and time consuming field of OBGYN. It was hard but I knew it was what God wanted.

Once upon a time I felt conflicted in my mind... I had a lot of church mates going for summer missions but I was "stuck" doing rounds in a hospital. When I confided in my pastor, he essentially told me that I was God's hands... while he uses some to share his love verbally, he uses people like me to share his love "physically".it was one of the most re-assuring and comforting thing I have heard so far from the church in regards to my occupation.

In no way am I disillusioned about my priorities...God..family..medicine. To ensure this, I took a yr off after medical school to get married and have my first child, with the grace of God,love from my husband and support from my family... I am able to be all that God wants me to be without sacrificing much. When I am done with residency, I will be working only part time so I can focus more on my family.

Please...please...please... this is a personal decision that women need to come to with guidance from God. I am not bitter but I am tired of hearing the church belittle/Guilt women who have the strong conviction that medicine is where God wants them to be. I have classmates who will be leaving the US when done to work in 3rd world countries performing surgeries on babies. There are single women who will be working in orphanages to the glory of God. There are physician wives who follow their evangelist husbands to the mission filed to help heal bodies while their husbands help heal souls.

I am also tired of hearing that women who strive for anything higher than a high school degree or a degree more "intense" than music is a "rebellious, unsubmissive feminist who can never "bow" to the leadership of their husbands.

Rather, let the church encourage these women to live a live that will foster the ability to sense God's direction.

[24. Kellie said the following at 11:54 AM on Dec 16:]

24

Re #7 and #17: I agree completely. I would hope that most men would desire to be involved fathers also look for flexible employment. However, this often does not pay as well as more demanding careers.

My husband and I are pretty much equally involved in the parenting of our child, but this also means that I work too, as it would not be finacially fisable for me to stay home full-time. It just depends on priorities.

[25. Marie said the following at 1:30 PM on Dec 16:]

25

Why don't you just ask a female doctor how she handles having a family? There are plenty of women doctors to ask! Me, I have always had a woman doctor--I for one would feel strange getting a breat exam from a man.

If this is your dream, go for it! Who knows? Perhaps you have the cure for cancer! You'll never know how far you can go unless you try.

[26. Lynn said the following at 1:59 PM on Dec 16:]

26

Ambrosia #23, Amen, amen amen!!!! Your story is beautiful! As a single, professional woman, I am so encouraged by women like you. Thank you for your post. If you haven't done so yet, you should definitely check out Homemaker, MD's blog.

[27. Lynn said the following at 2:12 PM on Dec 16:]

27

Anonymous #6,

You wrote: "Boundless has shown me (or rather made me face the reality) that by saying "yes" to a career or a certain life-path, that I am effectively saying "no" to another.

It is so sad that you feel that way. Please read Ambrosia #23's post, and also Homemaker, MD's blog post on this topic (http://homemakermd.com). Take heart and be encouraged!!!

[28. Befuddled said the following at 2:52 PM on Dec 16:]

28

Mike:

"The difference is that on the whole, men are expected by society to be out working and supporting a family. SAHD's are not the norm. Honestly, do most women including yourself (I assume you are one) find it attractive when a man says outright while dating, "My goal one day is to be a stay at home dad raising the kids while my wife brings home the bacon.""

I am a man, actually. No offense taken, in case you are concerned.

I don't see why individuals of either sex should be concerned with what a potential partner thinks in relation to social norms if they indeed want to have children and care for them. What is more important? Why should a man or a women bend to social conventions? I don't see much weight in the argument of "chicks aren't going to find this attractive."

I'm not saying that both parents need to work and spend time with the children equally (though this is ideal). What I'm saying is that women should not be designated automatically to take care of the kids. That's absurd.

Maybe the woman will be the breadwinner. Maybe it will be the man. Maybe they will work and spend time with their children equally. Maybe they will choose not to have children. We need to stop forming conventions so quickly.

[29. A.M.C. said the following at 3:56 PM on Dec 16:]

29

Re: Mike Theemling (#17)

This leads us to only two solutions according to your reasoning then. Either no one becomes physicians because it's too stressful for families, or only single people can go into the profession. Both alternatives border on absurdity.

Actually, I see a third possible solution:

Reform the profession of medicine to make it less "family-unfriendly" to clinicians of either sex. After all, the root of the problem here is really that medicine, as things now stand, can be "family-unfriendly" no matter who practices it because of the manner it is practiced.

==> In terms of possible policy interventions, regulations that set a cap on the number of hours that physicians (especially those in residency programs) are allowed to work (in one shift, or in a week) would be a good start. Admittedly, this could increase costs in the short run, as more clinicians would be needed per patient to provide the same amount of health care. But this policy does come with possible long-term benefits, including reduced stress on the individual physicians and reduced medical error (studies have shown that the frequency of medical errors double when an 8-hour shift is extended to a 12-hour shift, and quadrupled when it becomes a 16-hour shift).

[30. Anonymous female said the following at 4:08 PM on Dec 16:]

30

Well, as a medical student, don't go into medicine if you are a man or a woman who values family! ;) joking aside, I am kind of serious. I have seen most of the marriages and relationships in medical school undergo enormous strain, sometimes ending in divorce. My own initial relationship went under due to the inflexibility of the profession.

My advice would be the same for men or women- only do it if you can't imagine being happy doing something else. It is a wonderful, deeply fulfilling profession that truly was a calling in my life. I have no debt, so that has helped me keep my priorities in line- but that is a major consideration. I will easily be able to take a few years off or go part time when I decide to have children- most of my friends won't be able to say that. Carefully consider your speciality and think about how flexible it is. Some can be done from home, some have great part time slots, a few are especially family friendly. Some (i.e. surgery!) really are not.

Pray often and ask God where you belong. He has spoken powerfully in my life since I choose this profession and provided a Christian man who is a doctor himself to share my love of missions, medicine and family. I would have never met this person or shared the deep love that we have for each other and for Christ had I chosen not to become a doctor. In fact, I don't suggest marrying anyone who isn't a doctor if you do decide on this profession. No one else will understand why you would ever work over 80 hours a week + overnight call every 3 day+ slave labor wages for 8 years :)

[31. kaj said the following at 5:09 PM on Dec 16:]

31

So, then, what women would be qualified then to be a female doctor? We sure need them (kudos to Comment #25!).

[32. Kelly said the following at 5:34 PM on Dec 16:]

32

Anonymous female- I can't imagine being married to a doctor! I like that my husband isn't in medicine. He doesn't totally understand my work schedule, but he's still sympathetic to my post 30-hr shift fatigue!

[33. Heather Koerner said the following at 8:06 PM on Dec 16:]

33

Befuddled (#28):

You talk about how we shouldn't be concerned about "social norms" and shouldn't "bend to social conventions."

You say that "women should not be designated automatically to take care of the kids. That's absurd."

I, too, am unconcerned with conventions. But I am concerned with Scripture.

I'm wondering what you think the Word has to say on this topic. Do you think that it says that the primary nurturing role of children is interchangable between a man and a woman?

That there is no difference in God's design of a mom and a dad?

[34. Lynn said the following at 8:25 PM on Dec 16:]

34

Anonymous female #30,
You wrote "In fact, I don't suggest marrying anyone who isn't a doctor if you do decide on this profession. No one else will understand why you would ever work over 80 hours a week + overnight call every 3 day+ slave labor wages for 8 years :) ".

I find it so interesting that you wrote that. A family friend, who has recently graduated from medical school, explicitly stated that he won't date women who are not physicians for similar reasons (though he did make an exception in his rule to date a biology Ph.D., non-MD). It makes sense.

When you consider that a wife's role as a "help-meet/corresponding part" is not defined by cooking and cleaning, having a similar educational/professional background is a plus. I think that's something single women forget. Your education/profession may very well render you the perfect "corresponding part" for the right man.

[35. Homemaker, MD said the following at 6:38 AM on Dec 17:]

35

As evidenced by the many insightful comments on this issue, this is a both complex and relavant issue facing Christian women today. Thank-you for the compliments to my post on this issue. I simply ran out of room in a comment box!

So many more excellent points have been brought up here, which I'll continue to discuss with readers over at my blog over the next few weeks, as my Christmas preparation schedule allows!

[36. Loris said the following at 8:59 AM on Dec 17:]

36

Mike Theemling #17, Yes, that is the expectation that the man will be the primary breadwinner, though I know some families where that's reversed.

I was interested in a very cute, artistic guy in college, and I suspected he liked me back. However, I admit I did see him in a different light when he admitted he had no ambitions and would happily be a house husband. He switched schools and that was the last I saw of him until he contacted me a month ago. In the email, he apologized for his immaturity and aimlessness and said he was proceeding with career plans. I'm glad he's finding direction in his life, but five years ago, I knew I needed to find a man with goals, and this guy wasn't it. I'm not going to dwell on the might-have-beens since the Lord did bring me a husband soon after that guy passed out of my life.

[37. Marie said the following at 9:12 AM on Dec 17:]

37

I laughed out loud when I read some of the comments. Being a teacher is not a flexible job. I know. Both my parents were teachers. Sure, your work day may not be as long. But think of all the at home work. My mother, who works at a charter school, frequently puts in 60-80 hours a week. My father, who was a university professor, decided to switch to state jobs because he would be able to leave work at work that way. Also, music. I am a music major. I know lots of musicians. The other day I was in the airport coloring with a little girl from Ghana and listening to her mother tell me how she chose social work over music because music required too much work. I told her I was considering the same shift. Music requires frequently 4-5 hours of practicing a day, sometimes more. And one small injury can be career-ending (carpal tunnel syndrome for me). I have read a post from another musician on Boundless who said that she quit music to pursue marriage because music was too time-consuming. Any profession can be life-consuming if you allow it to become so. What is truly the problem is our culture's materialism and our frequent idolization of our careers.

[38. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:16 AM on Dec 17:]

38

Some interesting responses. I'd like to address a few of the comments/questions people had.

Irene (#21) said,

"YES! I entered the dating look for someone who wouldn't necessarily be a SAHD, but who loved children, wanted to spend time with them, and was supportive of my ambition."

I assume the ambition is to be a physician, and am glad you found a nice fit.

My point was not that dad's should not be involved with their children's lives or suggest that childrearing is only a "woman's job". My point was that simply when you have kids (from infants until old enough to go to school), there are only a handful of viable alternatives for raising them:

A) Have a parent be home full time
B) Have a parent work from home
C) Have the child go to daycare
D) Hire a nanny

Option B may not always be available and options C and D can be very expensive. Maybe you don't want to daycare your kids (a debate for another time). True, maybe you have parents (grandparents) that can act as daycare providers. But again, that is often not the norm. That may leave only option A.

Now, the question is, "Which parent is it going to be?" The father? Chances are, it's not going to be. Chances are, it's going to the the mother. Why? Maybe because of desire, maybe because of income or career advancement, or a combination of that and other factors. But the statistics show that it's not usually the dad that stays home. It's not being sexist, it's just being realistic.

So you can end up with the dilemas that some mothers face. Continue to pursue a career (with daycare if the work-at-home option isn't there), or nix the career (or put it on hold) to be the SAHM. I'm not going to say which is "better". That's between a husband/wife and between them and God. But I do believe that there are women who do not fully take this reality into account. Maybe they took on a lot of student loan debt and feel trapped. They have to pay these bills and that second income is the only way to do it. But the problem is, if they go with the daycare option, a good chunk of that money could go towards that. Or perhaps it's a career which you really "can't take a break from" (like being a doctor, esp if you are doing residence). Maybe the husband will make the sacrifice and be the one who stays home. But what if he is reluctant?

Just something to think about, and reiterating that people should count the costs, both financially and in terms of family impact before diving into such a demanding profession.

Befuddled (#28) said:

Why should a man or a women bend to social conventions? I don't see much weight in the argument of "chicks aren't going to find this attractive."

I agree, there isn't a lot of empirical evidence to back up my claim, but a combination of anecdotal evidence and common sense will tell you that although women may like a guy who enjoys kids and likes being involved with them, I seriously doubt that most women would want to date someone who they knew right off the bat wasn't interested in pursuing a career but in being a full time dad. Furthermore, I don't know of too many men who really want to be full SAHD's anyway. If I'm wrong ladies, speak up now!

This leads to the problem discussed above. When children come along, you only have a limited number of options to raise them in their early years. And the option of Dad being at home full time is usually not an option.

A.M.C. (#29) said:

"Reform the profession of medicine to make it less "family-unfriendly" to clinicians of either sex. After all, the root of the problem here is really that medicine, as things now stand, can be 'family-unfriendly' no matter who practices it because of the manner it is practiced."

I agree, that the M.D. or related professions are not generally family friendly. However, that's not likely to change anytime soon. There's what "should be" and then there's what actually is. But here's the thing, most people know the medical career can be hard on family. People should not be naive about it (as med school alone gives a glimpse of what is required).

Bottom line: Male or female, if you want to become a doctor (or any profession) for whatever reason whether it be interest in the subject, financial rewards (why lie, how many would go into the field if it wasn't well paying?), God's calling, or a combination that's fine. But one should be soberly aware how it may affect your future family plans.

And one last (un-PC) thing. Even though I have no qualms dating someone who is more "successful" than myself (I've dated physicians before), some men are intimidated by them.

[39. Sara said the following at 11:08 AM on Dec 17:]

39

"Integrating work and motherhood (even a demanding career like medicine) is easier to do if you live in a western country with generous maternity leave, a very positive view of job shares, and universal healthcare (both parents could work part-time if that worked best)."

Any yet, in post after post and article after article, Boundless has advocated against all of the above. Why oppose family friendly policies that make life more managable for husbands, wives and kids? Maybe the question isn't "can she be a doctor?" but "how can we advocate for a society in which she can be a doctor, wife and mother?"

[40. Ted Slater said the following at 11:28 AM on Dec 17:]

40

FWIW, my dad is a physician. Back when he was in private practice, he encouraged me *not* to follow his career path if I wanted to enjoy family life.

He's working with the Veterans Administration now, rather than private practice, and his schedule is much more amenable to family life. I think it's about 40 hours per week, plus being on call a few times per month.

The truth is that we've only got a certain number of hours per week. If we spend all of those "at work," the truth is that we'll have fewer to spend "with family." That's just the way it works. I'm not condemning physicians -- my dad is a physician, after all -- I'm just making clear what the big point here is: The decisions you make now about which career you pursue will affect your family life.

Now, let's hear it for day care, surrogate parents (i.e., teachers), and stay-at-home-dads!

[41. Heather Koerner said the following at 3:06 PM on Dec 17:]

41

P&P (#14) writes:

I honestly believe that if she were to abandon that path, she wouldn't be as good a mother. She'd be frustrated and resentful that she wasn't using her full talents.

Hmm ... am I "frustrated and resentful" because I am not using my "full talents" as a SAHM? Nope. Rather, I found that when I embraced the Scriptural call to make my family my priority, God found ingenious and creative ways to use my talents to their full capacity.

[42. Louise from Chicago said the following at 4:00 PM on Dec 17:]

42

Comment 41, Heather if you are happy using your abilities as a SAHM that is just fine.

People are different, though, and a particular life path that is wholly satisfying for one person might be extremely frustating and depressing for another.

[43. Kellie said the following at 7:04 PM on Dec 17:]

43

Re #41: I am interested to understand what you mean when you say you "embraced the Scriptural call to make my family a priority" as a SAHM.

I get very weary of hearing that mothers who work out of the home do not value their families, put their careers first, etc, etc, and I hope this not what you are implying.

[44. Homemaker, MD said the following at 7:15 AM on Dec 18:]

44

There were a lot of skills I picked up during my medical training as a physician that were transferrable to my new vocation as a homemaker. I'm discussing them in more detail over at my blog www.homemakermd.com. I'd love to hear about the skills some of you found to be transferable!

[45. Ambrosia said the following at 7:46 AM on Dec 18:]

45

Personally during med school, I had it already settled in my mind that I would NEVER marry a doctor. I want my home life to be about more than medicine and the most refreshing thing is to come home and "leave medicine on the porch".

It also helps with scheduling, hubby has a "normal" job with a "normal" schedule so this will def come in handy.

1st thing I learnt in my Psychology class is that stats show "doctor couples" tend to end up in divorce and people use this fact as an excuse to warn people away from medicine; we need to understand this has nothing to do with medicine per se ( look at the national statistics of divorce in america) but more about the condition of the heart and what foundation the relationship was built on.

[46. em said the following at 8:13 AM on Dec 18:]

46

Heather (#41) - good for you! but we are all different and should be flexible with other's choices.

In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity, right? Whether she becomes a physician or not, God will continue to be at work in her life and her future family.

Others have raised the more relevant questions (and they are relevant for both sexes):
* WHY do you want to be a doctor? (ambition, prestige, Grey's Anatomy, love for people / science that helps people, desire to minister to your patients domestically or as a missionary or missionary spouse, other...)
* HOW do you intend to integrate your profession with future family life, if God so provides? (is the top priority job, spouse, kids? will you work reduced hours, put your career on hold, continue at the same pace and expect your spouse to understand)
* WHAT other careers could possibly satisfy the desires God has laid on your heart? Are you drawn to any of them? do other careers seem "second best" for you?

If your heart check leads you to believe that God - not your selfish ambition - is drawing you to medicine AND you have thoroughly considered other options as well as how you will deal with the stresses of your chosen profession, then GO FOR IT!

[47. Ted Slater said the following at 10:08 AM on Dec 18:]

47

This entire issue brings up a very difficult truth: We only have 24 hours in each day. And, as Jesus' pointed out, where our treasure is, there will our heart be also.

If we spend 80 hours per week working away from home, we just won't have any relational time with our family, including our kids. If our "treasure" is outside the home, that's where our hearts will be also: not inside the home. That's just a fact.

If you want to be in private medical practice, and are studying to achieve that goal, it's likely that you won't have much of a family life. There are exceptions, of course, but in general when you're in private medical practice, you'll simply be unable to be there for your family very much. If you think you can balance the two, you're probably mistaken. For as I said, there are only 24 hours each day.

I can't help but think that being a mother means being there for your children. If you delegate motherly responsibilities to someone else (day care, nanny, au pair, teachers, etc.), then you're missing out on personally raising your children, missing out on building a personal relationship with your children.

This isn't controversial. This isn't hard. The choice is yours: If you put most of your time and energy into your career, then that is where your treasure and consequently where your heart is. If you put most of your time and energy into your family, then that is where your treasure and consequently your heart is. Again, the choice is yours, of course, but you do have to choose one over the other.

I mourn the fact that I only see my kids maybe a couple of hours each weekday, since I have to be here at work. And I only really engage them for maybe an hour or less each day. If my wife were working outside the home, then our children would engage their parents just a few minutes per day, and engage surrogate parents for many hours per day.

Doesn't anyone think that's tragic, that so many children are disengaged from both their parents because their parents, whether by choice or necessity, spend most of their hours and energy on their careers? I truly find that heartbreaking.

This is a life of sacrifice. If we have children, weigh heavily whether they should be sacrificed on the altar of career.

[48. Julie said the following at 10:32 AM on Dec 18:]

48

I agree with you Ted, which is why I'm a SAHM. But I think the ideal would be for society to be structured in such a way that parents could share working and childcare more equally. Maybe the Dad could work 30 hours a week and the Mom 10. Or the Dad 25 and the Mom 15. It doesn't work in the US because someone usually has to be working full-time to get health benefits for the family. Also job shares are not supported and encouraged to the extent they are in many other western countries. And as tragic as it is that so many kids kids spend so much time away from parents, at least in these other countries, almost never is this true of children under 6 months or even 1 year.

[49. Ambrosia said the following at 10:38 AM on Dec 18:]

49

Mr Slater,
(I really wanted to write Ted but since I have never written directly to you.. I feel a bit disrespectful....LOL)

I think everyone here has been stating their own opinions... How they see the situation and what they think the answer is....

My problem with your last statement is that it is full of absolutes...telling me that "I just can't..." and "it's a fact that..." makes me feel like you don't think that there is any other possible way.

I think there is.... actually, I know there is; not because I read it in a magazine or because I am full of hopeful wishing but because I LIVE THAT LIFE!!!

Now don't get me wrong, it is a life of sacrifice and I have come to terms that I am working the "lowest tier possible" in medicine but that does not take away from the fact that I can raise my children, be a wife and still be a physician.

Please let's stay away from absolutes especially when we have no solid evidence that the the opposite is impossible.

PS: I am still a fan! LOL

[50. Louise from Chicago said the following at 10:42 AM on Dec 18:]

50

Comment 47, that is precisely why I made a conscious decision not to have children because I don't want to sacrifice my own goals.

I have been severely criticized througout my adult life for this choice; secular people are just as bad too!

I would like to ask at this time that I would not be innodated with quiverfull quotes from the Bible.

I have heard it all before.

And Mr. Slater, in comment 47 you are implying that if a mother works a full time outside job she is not able to "personally raise her children and build a personal relationship with her childen."

You yourself sir work full time outside the home...have you been able to build personal relationships with your children?

Next time I'm asked to quote an instance where Boundlessline disparages working mothers, I've got it right here!

[51. Tami said the following at 11:02 AM on Dec 18:]

51

I think the question has evolved a bit, from "Should this young as-yet-unmarried woman pursue a career as a doctor" to "Should ANY women (and, to a certain extent, men), including those who are already married with children, be doctors?" Though the difference seems subtle, it is not negligible.

We have no idea what lies ahead of the young woman who wrote the initial question. Despite her best efforts, she may not marry until she's 35, and in the course of that time she may serve wholeheartedly as a doctor to some people who God planned for her to serve -- and thus she really is seeking treasure in heaven. Or she may start school, meet and marry, and decide to start a family... and then quit (again, demonstrating where her treasure is). As others have said, God wastes nothing -- even if she quit (which is not a horrible thing if done for thoughtful reasons!), she may still meet people, learn things, etc. that are vital to her life as a wife, mother, and servant of God. School might even put her in the position of meeting the man she may marry.

As I've stated elsewhere, of course this is a decision not to be taken lightly; and as a believer, one would hopefully not be doing it for status reasons (but rather because one felt a genuine call and sense of mission towards it).

So to me, the key is remaining flexible and responsive to God's call -- which may at some point mean starting, and quitting. If she genuinely is led to pursue that degree - well, I wouldn't disobey that call.

[52. jen said the following at 11:08 AM on Dec 18:]

52

Ted,
You say that "If you put most of your time and energy into your career, then that is where your treasure and consequently where your heart is. If you put most of your time and energy into your family, then that is where your treasure and consequently your heart is." Then you say that "I only really engage them (my children) for maybe an hour or less each day." Does that mean that you're putting your treasure into your career? I just don't see why there's a different standard for working moms than working dads.

[53. Ted Slater said the following at 12:03 PM on Dec 18:]

53

First, I appreciate the comments on my comment #47. This issue is close to everyone's heart, including mine. And including yours.

Ambrosia (#49) -- I was careful how I worded my comment. I acknowledge exceptions. Some physicians, including my dad, work fewer than 50 hours per week, and consequently have more time for family. You say, "Please let's stay away from absolutes." That's exactly what I did.

Louise from Chicago (#50) -- yes, if a mother works 80 hours per week at the hospital or clinic, then she is not able to "personally raise her children and build a personal relationship with her children." Cannot be done, due to the cold hard fact that there are only 24 hours in each day.

Regarding my being away from home some 50+ hours per week for work: yes, of course, that hinders the degree to which I'm able to build personal relationships with my three daughters. Did you not read the paragraph that begins "I mourn the fact that I only see my kids maybe a couple of hours each weekday"?

Jen (#52) -- I have a biblical responsibility to provide for my family. I work outside the home to earn an income to provide for my family. I miss my children. The thing is, our daughters *do* get to spend a good deal of time with one of their parents: my wife. If they didn't get to spend much time with any parent, that would be tragic, as I've stated.

I'm not against "working mothers." Saying that I am is just sloppy and mean spirited. A number of my co-workers are "working mothers," and in most cases I affirm their decisions. In my comment #47 above I'm speaking specifically of mothers who commit to working 80 hours per week outside the home as physicians. And I'm warning those who are planning for such a career that that is not very conducive to being a mother with whom their children will have any kind of meaningful personal relationship.

[54. BDB said the following at 12:03 PM on Dec 18:]

54

Julie (#48) wrote:

>> Also job shares are not supported and encouraged to the extent they are in many other western countries.<<

I wish to reiterate my first post - job shares are VERY common among doctors of Audiology and Doctors of Optometry. The fields have become heavily populated with moms - so many that the fields themselves have changed from what we expect of general practicioners.

Of course, note that those fields are not subject to the same kinds of government control of health care. If those kinds of doctors make a mistake, it doesn't cause injury, they just need to re-make the glasses or adjust the hearing aid. Consequently, malpractice insurance costs for those fields are way, way, way lower. Lower lawsuits, less government interference, lower overhead costs = less need to see tons of patients to cover that overhead. And the jobs are much more family friendly.

When my grandmother was a nurse, during WWII she worked nights because there was a nursing shortage. In fact, she WANTED to be a SAHM, but people from the town came to the saying, "Hey, there's a shortage of nurses, we need her to work." So my grandfather worked days, she worked nights, and both basically spent one shift per day working and one shift per day with the toddlers. They didn't see each other awake during the war.

Later on, my grandmother went to work for a doctor's office. That meant day-time shifts. And they let her take off several summers when the kids were out of school and there was work to do on the farm. Further, that doctor's office would do medical outreach to the poor on their own time/dime, particularly to the local Indian tribe and the various migrant worker camps since the area was still quite agricultural.

I know that some pharmacists prefer working for Target or Costco because they dont have to worry about their own overhead or insurance. They can just be an employee and go home at the end of the day. It looks like a pretty attractive profession for someone with a scientific mind who wants predictable hours.

In closing, I want to paraphrase a Wall Street Journal that examined disparities between men and women in Fortune 500 executive jobs. In a surprisingly honest observation, they noticed that most of those jobs are crap - constant travel, vast hours, they wipe out everything else in life. That's why most top executives are divorced.

You cannot serve both God and money.

[55. Julie said the following at 1:03 PM on Dec 18:]

55

Good info, BDB. I think it's great for women to think ahead about their options. If they want to take a career break, or work reduced hours, what jobs/specialties will be most conducive to this?

[56. BDB said the following at 1:23 PM on Dec 18:]

56

Julie (#55) wrote:

>> If they want to take a career break, or work reduced hours, what jobs/specialties will be most conducive to this? <<

In addition to the allied health fields?

One advantage of getting a teaching credential is that it's a career one can come BACK to pretty easily, and also serves as excellent prepartion for anyone who want to home school and/or work part time at a private school. Having the credential is always an advantage when applying for those part-time slots.

Accounting is another field that lends itself to part-time work. Particularly for those women who push through and get their CPA done by age 24 or 25. Once the have the CPA, they can go into tax, which is seasonal work, or handle the accounting for a small organization that doesn't really need a full-time accountant. It's also possible to find part-time accounting work for firms during their busy time, like tax season.

One big advantage of the part-time professions is that for those with the skills, it's possible to make as much money working part time as someone without the professional skills working full time.

[57. Kristen in CA said the following at 2:15 PM on Dec 18:]

57

As a daughter of a CPA, BDB, I would argue that this is a counter example for what you are arguing. Tax season (which is several months long), most CPAs pull 70-85 hour work weeks. There are entire chunks of my childhood where I don't have memories involving my mom. Then again, she did what was necessary to help support the family b/c you don't go into the ministry for the money (though what churches pay their pastors is separate discussion for another time). Now that she works for the IRS, her hours are much more reasonable. :)

[58. BDB said the following at 2:55 PM on Dec 18:]

58

#57 - yes, it depends on how you structure it. A tax accountant will be working those 70-80 hour weeks, but perhaps only during tax season, and not working at all the rest of the year. Still, with tax season done before summer, it can work out well, depending on the other spouse's work schedule.

A regular, non-tax accountant, might be assisting with year-end close and regular G/L accounting during tax season to help with that work load. It varies widely by organization.

Personally, I think year-end close is easier handled by the accounting people who do it all year, so that it's not such a big mess. But a nice clean accounting close can make preparation of the tax forms a lot easier for the tax accountants.

[59. Kelly said the following at 4:05 PM on Dec 18:]

59

I just want to reiterate that medicine doesn't have to be a ridiculously time-consuming career forever! Through much of med school and residency, yes, but after that, there's flexibility. I personally love the fact that I will be able to work part time and still make a good living. It's just a really hard road to get there. I've always said I would get a an advanced degree and then be a SAHM. Who knows, maybe I will! But hopefully I'll still have time to pour into my children while working a regular work week as a doc.

[60. Heather Koerner said the following at 4:19 PM on Dec 18:]

60

Kellie (#43):

I do believe that Scripture calls married women to make their husbands and (if they have them) children their priority.

I don't think (though I can see how my comment may have read that way) that the only way to make your family a priority is by being a SAHM.

(Though, as always, I highly affirm it and take every opportunity I can to remind our female readers that 80% of moms of minor children believe that working full-time is not ideal.)

Still, though, Ted makes an excellent point. If a mom spends the majority of her time away from her family and hands over the childrearing responsibilities to others, can she honestly say that her family is her priority?

[61. Heather Koerner said the following at 4:25 PM on Dec 18:]

61

Louise (#42):

P&P's statement implied that this young lady would be frustrated and resentful if she chose not to pursue medicine.

I was simply pointing out that I disagree.

Your point is valid, though. I do not believe that everyone must live exactly as I do--two kids, SAHM in Oklahoma, freelance writer, etc.

But I do believe in encouraging young women to look at Scripture, see what it outlines as priorities for women, and ask themselves the really hard questions about how to work those priorities into their future.

And, as a believer, I don't think it's ever extremely frustrating or depressing when we follow the Word.

[62. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 4:32 PM on Dec 18:]

62

(OK, I had a comment written and then my computer froze and I lost it, so I will attempt to summarize what I was saying in a few sentences in the time I have before I have to leave.)

As I read some of these comments I wonder if some of the struggle of young women in making these decisions comes from the fact that we are (generally) getting married at an older age than generations before us, meaning that we are having to make some decisions about how to support ourselves for longer on our own. I know that's the situation I find myself in right now.

Do I return to school to get the next level of education to allow myself to continue to move up in my career, and end up with less fleixibility in the future? Or do I just stop now with any advancement in my career (as I've gone as far as I can with my current education) and possibly spend years in one place with no new opportunities, when there is no prospect of marriage in the near future (depsite being pro-active about moving in that direction)?

[63. BDB said the following at 5:13 PM on Dec 18:]

63

Tamara (from Canada) (#62) wrote:

>>Do I return to school to get the next level of education to allow myself to continue to move up in my career, and end up with less fleixibility in the future?<<

Why would more education give you less flexibility in the future? Granted, some organizations might see you as over qualified. But...that only matters when someone is reading your resumé!

Besides, I think the Watters met in grad school, if I remember correctly. Try to attend the social events, though, particularly those that mix different departments. Those in the Education department are more kid-oriented than those in the MBA program, for example.

[64. Lea said the following at 9:36 PM on Dec 18:]

64

As a female medical student this is a very relevant topic! A couple of years ago I was asking this exact question. In fact I'd put off applying to do medicine for the very reason that it took too long and wasn't a good choice for a woman wanting to be a mother. But then I just found myself having done a degree, 3 years older and not any closer to being married than I had been before. After a lot of prayer and talking with my parents I decided that I couldn't live my life waiting, what if I don't get married til I'm 40 and I could have been working as a doctor for 10 years? (I really would like to be married and have kids way before that though!) And God has confirmed my decision heaps of times, for example when I was applying I knew I'd be out of the country during the interview stage, so I thought that would be the end of it. But I was given the very last interview which happened to be on the day after I flew back in. So, I'm now a 3rd year med student and loving it. I still struggle with this issue but trust that God will continue to lead me. I also know that this is what God wants for me but might not be right for the young woman asking the question. And thanks to homemaker, md for your blogs! I'm already getting used to the sleep deprivation :-P

[65. Julie said the following at 9:14 AM on Dec 19:]

65

Someone said this above, but I think it is generally true that the more education/experience you have, the easier it is to work part-time and yet still bring in significant income. So working hard at your career while single (and married with no children) could result in more time with children later on.

Also, there is a golden opportunity to save a lot of money in the years pre-children. My husband and I wouldn't own a house today if we hadn't lived on my income and saved his in the early years of our marriage. It sure helped that I was able to make the money I did (nothing spectacular but more than I could have made with a BA). And then as I put him through his advanced degree, and started having children, I was able to support us on a part-time income rather than having to work full-time and put my child in daycare.

[66. Kellie said the following at 10:30 AM on Dec 19:]

66

#60: Thank you for the clarification. I agree with your points. I am neither a SAHM or a full-time working mom (I work part-time, although not as part-time as I wish).

I do believe the general way of parenting upheld by Christians (being active and involved in your child's life, among other things) is probably most easily done when one parent is at home full-time. But it is not impossible to do as a working parent. It might just take some hard work and sacrifice, but it is worth it.

[67. Kyra said the following at 7:13 AM on Dec 20:]

67

I always find it interesting that "career/family balance" questions are primarily asked by and of women, as though only women have children, and men don't need to think about career/family balance. The main points I want to address below are:
1) My concern over the idea that any woman who wants to have children would be counseled to avoid entire fields of career options.
2) The lack of attention that is given to the stress that many careers place on fathers.

Something that doesn't seem to be touched on too often is that there are whole fields of careers that have the potential to be extremely demanding and time consuming to anyone who also plans on being a parent. Men included. There is such a thing as a father who works too much, and many young fathers I know struggle to be both superstars at work and at home. The issue is certainly exacerbated in this generation, when most fathers who work in demanding fields are married to women who also work outside the home.

There are many men who, anticipating the future work hours of their chosen career, seek wives who intend to be career stay-at-home moms. This is a great way to ensure that long work hours, travel etc. do not have a stressful impact on the family as a whole. I see nothing wrong with a reverse scenario, in which a woman who pursues a career in, say, neurosurgery or corporate law seeks to marry a stay-at-home dad or man with a far less demanding career.

I really take issue with the notion that any woman who works full time and possibly places her children in daycare to do so is a bad mom. No one would suggest a man who works full time is sinfully making his work a priority over his children. If a mother works outside the home, presumably it's for the same reasons fathers do--to bring in income, and to contribute to society as a whole by utilizing her talents, intelligence and education. I find it unfortunate that a man's motives for pursuing certain careers would never be questioned and yet a woman's motives are. As a woman who used to work at a law firm where all of the attorneys were married, I saw how the fathers struggled to balance work and family (all of them had three or more children). The main partners set firm-wide standards for reasonable work days that did not extend past 5:30 PM, and flexibility regarding family emergencies and child care.

The point of the above example is to illustrate that rather than asking "as a woman, is my chosen career compatible to motherhood?" Both men and women should be asking "as employees, what can we do to make corporations and all workplaces more pro-family?" One of the best ways to do that is by having mothers working for those very same corporations, running the HR departments, pushing for such luxuries as equal pay, adequate maternity leave policies, lactation rooms, etc. It's doubtful that offices completely staffed by men would be aware of the unique needs of, say, single working mothers. But other women might. If all women who wanted to be mothers avoided demanding careers in politics, for example, we would have no women in serving in our government, drawing attention to the needs of women and mothers.

[68. BDB said the following at 3:48 PM on Dec 20:]

68

Kyra (#67) wrote:

>>running the HR departments, pushing for such luxuries as equal pay,<<

Alas, this statement sounds like someone who's never worked in corporate America.

Working in HR isn't going to give anyone any power to really discuss pay. They will be seen as whining about things they don't understand.

Work in finance. If you want to change pay, you need to be able to justify the compensation for the position. That means being able to demonstrate, mathematically, that a particular postion is worth the pay.

I know that in my organization, women in the same roles as men, with the same experience, made the same money.

But sales always makes the most money, they also get fired the quickest for not making their sales goals.

Positions that require a degree pay more; and more is expected of the individuals in those roles. An A/P clerk is not expected to do the level of work expected of a financial analyst. But that level of analytical work is a skill set developed in school - it is unreasonable to expect anyone to teach you how to do it on the job. They expect the people who fill those jobs to come to the position already prepared.

Usually you will find time flexibility in those jobs where there are multiple people doing that job. Key positions usually have only one person who is expected to be the decision-maker. That person usually does not have anywhere near the flexibility in their time. They are paid more because they are expected to essentially be available all the time when a decision is needed. You do trade flexibility for pay. This is true in all industries.

That's why it works well for audiologists and optometrists to be moms: it's usually a one-time exam with little if any follow-up treatment. It almost doesn't matter who does the initial exam, you may never see them again. If one is home with a sick kid, the other doctor can handle the one-time patient needs. And there is often not any need to contact the doctor who did the initial exam to make decisions on future treatment. The patient is not adversely impacted by the doctor being unreachable. In any case, the technology used by all the doctors is the same, so another doctor can read the file and adjust the glasses or hearing aids based on what the patient is experiencing now; what they were experiencing at their exam two years ago is far less relevant.

[69. Heather Koerner said the following at 1:38 PM on Dec 21:]

69

Kyra (#67):

I find it interesting too.

Rather than being "concerned" and "finding it unfortunate" that women ask these questions about family/career balance, I find it a confirmation of Scripture. That our God has purposed -- designed us, even -- as men and women for different responsibilities and roles.

That those purposes and responsibilities are for good -- the good of His creation, the good of His kingdom and our own personal good.

That, though we might assist our spouses in their areas of responsibility, there are still areas to which God has called us to have dominion over.

That explains to me why women, even unbelieving women, would be so conflicted over leaving their children to the care of others.

That said, though, I do agree with your point about how fathers, too, need to be intentional about their own career choices. My husband, for example, changed from a job which required weekly traveling to one which required much less once our second child was born.

[70. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 3:14 PM on Dec 21:]

70

BDB (#63) asks:
Why would more education give you less flexibility in the future?
---
Because of the annual costs that would then be involved in maintaining my qualifications that would be coming out of my own pocket if I was not employed somewhere. And the continuing education requirement to keep up my qualifications. These would make it so that I would have less flexibility in what I did regarding working in the future with a young family (that I would ideally like to be home with rather than owrking), as I would have significant costs that I was paying out of pocket rather than them being paid, at least partially, by an employer.

[71. Kathleen said the following at 3:31 PM on Dec 21:]

71

Not everyone has the skill, disposition or training to be a physician.
I'd also remind those who are considering a high-skill, high-value career to talk to others in the same position. Asking an SAHM about being a surgeon is like asking a janitor about being a CEO -- you're just not likely to get fact-based first-hand information.

[72. Heather Koerner said the following at 2:54 PM on Dec 22:]

72

Kathleen (#71):

Being a SAHM is not a high-value career? I'm hoping that you mean that it is not monetarily compensated.

But the comparison to a janitor? Biting my tongue ... a lot.

Still, I think you have a point. If a woman is considering a career which may require extensive education, years of training and (possibly) hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, best to actually get an idea of what that life will look like and the benefits/sacrifices that come with it.

However, though a surgeon can speak quite authoritatively on her field, it does not necessarily qualify her to speak on biblical womanhood.

Best also to look around for women who love the Lord, exhibit the fruits of the Spirit, have Ephesians 5-based marriages and are raising children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Then ask them how they do that and what career/education choices they have made in their lives.

[73. BDB said the following at 5:50 PM on Dec 22:]

73

Tamara (#70) - I can see how the continuing education costs are a consideration. I think I'm spending about $2000 out of my own pocket for continuing ed this year - hmmm...I'll be it's tax deductible. Make a note...

Here in California, once people complete their credential, they may indeed allow it to go dormant, but the can re-activate it by doing the continuing ed for just that year, not going back and doing it for every year. This would facilitate finishing the degree and raising a family for 10 years, then reactivating. I think that the actual career path might include some part-time work first, which brings enough income to cover the continuing ed, THEN going back to full time.

But, those are tactical issues that vary based on the specific credential and one's specific financial situation. A CPA running their own business probably needs to keep the credential active. But, if they're just helping out a small business, a CPA is not technically required; only the auditor needs the CPA to sign off on the financial statements. For a simple business, an inactive CPA probably has plenty of accounting knowledge to prepare the financial statements.

Heck, I have sufficient knowledge to prepare the financial statements without a CPA. But my accounting knowledge is more specific to the industry I worked in; a CPA is expected to understand a wide variety of businesses to practice public accounting.

[74. Kathleen said the following at 6:58 PM on Dec 22:]

74

Heather, yes, I meant high-value as well-compensated. Healthcare also provides an essential and life-saving service which also makes it high value.

And I wasn't comparing stay-at-homes to janitors, I was making the point that one field of endeavor is not the best source for information about an entirely different field. If I want to know about being a surgeon, I'll ask a surgeon, not a homemaker. Vice versa. Go right to the source if you want accurate intelligence.

As for 'biblical womanhood', I'm not sure what that means, nor have I ever heard anyone say 'I'm planning a career in biblical womanhood'. I don't recall Jesus saying much about it either, so I don't imagine it's something that many women make a top priorty. Some might, but in my experience, it's not a big factor.

[75. Heather Koerner said the following at 9:14 AM on Dec 23:]

75

Kathleen (#74):

Healthcare does often provide life-saving services. Godly mothers shape and equip eternal souls. Still gotta go with the latter for value, in my book -- at least for certain seasons of life.

And I'm thinking that you did not listen to the interview. They were not SAHMs giving advice to a surgeon on how to be a surgeon. You might want to give it a listen.

By "biblical womanhood," I mean searching Scripture for what God intends for a woman's life -- His design, His purpose, His roles, etc. for her. I agree that many women do not make this a top priority. That's, IMO, tragic. I'm hoping the ladies of BoundlessLine will make it a top priority.

If you'd like to learn more about it, check out the links in comment #69.

[76. Puzzled said the following at 9:58 AM on Dec 23:]

76

Heather,

Godly physicians shape and equip eternal souls. If Godly physicians take their role in the world seriously, they could witness to thousands of patients, hundreds of nurses and other physicians, and thousands of other individuals in healthcare. All within a few years time. And at the same time you are serving individuals' physical needs.

Go ahead and try to do that while staying at home raising 5 kids. Not saying the latter can not be effective, I'm just saying that the scope of impact is hundreds/thousands of times greater than for the SAHM.

[77. Puzzled said the following at 10:18 AM on Dec 23:]

77

Heather, your links do not mention Paul's recommendation that men AND women stay single. How does that fit in with your biblical womanhood worldview?

Are those women who work tirelessly to bring the nations to faith in Jesus, less of a woman?

Are those women who are single on the mission field, less of a woman?

Are those women who do not have children because they are unable to, less of a woman?

[78. Kathleen said the following at 12:56 PM on Dec 23:]

78

Heather, thanks. I think it's perfectly fine for you to priortize your own preferences, that's what we all do. But the point I'm making is that your personal preferences -- stay at home, children, etc. -- are not shared by everyone.

For instance, I'd be bored out of my mind at home all day with small children, thus I am pursuing a demanding career in constitutional law. I don't think this makes me better than an SAHM, but it is a better choice for my skills and interests.

As for the interview, I didn't say that the non-career women were trying to tell a surgeon how to be a surgeon. I think we all agree that would be ridiculous. What I said is that young women should hear directly from a surgeon on what a surgeon's life is like. None of the women in the interview were surgeons, nor had high-prestige careers, so they were not very representative of those options. I'm sure they can speak quite well to their own choices, but a young woman should get as broad a perspective as possible when she is considering her choices.

Hope that clears it up.

[79. Heather Koerner said the following at 1:20 PM on Dec 23:]

79

Puzzled,

I certainly don't want to discount the amazing contributions that godly doctors (or teachers, social workers, counselors, etc.) can have.

Yet, when I read Scripture, I see that God has called women to make their families and homes a priority. I don't think He has called me to something that is a waste of my time. I don't need to question Him about how I can have the most impact for His kingdom. He's already told me.

Yes, there are many things of importance that a woman can do. But, as I read Scripture, I can find nothing more important that a married woman with children can do.

But, you asked, what if a woman is called to singleness? How does that fit into a view of biblical womanhood? Here are a few articles from our archives that address that question:

• Called to Singleness
• Reflecting on the "Mystery of Marriage"
• A Balanced View on Singleness
• Better Together
• Radical Womanhood: The Mommy Wars (which was written by Carolyn McCulley, who gave the interview referenced in this blog)

[80. Lea said the following at 1:25 PM on Dec 23:]

80

Puzzled (#76), yes Godly doctors do have the opportunity to serve many people over the course of their careers. Unfortunately, I have heard from many Christian doctors that the reality of being able to witness to their patients is quite different. Busy and exhausted doctors often don't get much time at all with patients and are often quite disappointed and depressed about how much they are actually able to witness. Contrast that with a SAHM who is continually able to witness and talk with her children. I'm optimistic (and possibly naive enough) to hope that I will be able to use my career to bring Jesus' message to many people, but I think comparing how worthy our life paths are by numbers witnessed to isn't very helpful.

[81. Puzzled said the following at 2:44 PM on Dec 23:]

81

Heather, if I take your response at face value, it seems like you believe that the only true women are those that stay at home and raise children, and those who do not are living for less important things.

If you're going to write such extreme things, you should at least back it up with scriptural commands.

Show me the commands from Jesus that say women must abandon all other pursuits and to marry and have children.

Show me the commands which say going to the nations and preaching the gospel is secondary in importance to having children.

Show me the commands which say that true womanhood is in the home and not serving the physically-needy wholeheartedly.

Show me the commands to deny yourself daily to take up your cross and to bear children.

When the years and painstaking effort spent in properly rearing children in a family takes precedence over Jesus' commands for Kingdom-centered living, how can you honestly say that God commands women that the highest priority is in having children?

This has nothing to do with being "called to singleness", as if being called is defined as empiric evidence that when no man would marry you, you are then called to singleness; this, implicitly, is how Boundless tends to define "the call". This has nothing to do with "married women with children can do those things too, just not with as much time"; if you are going to specify extremes, you forgo arguments in the gray areas.

It is comical that the pendulum has swung 180 degrees, from the idea that marriage is not an inferior pathway to serving God, to where it is now where marriage is the only way to meaningfully serve God and all other pursuits become secondary.

[82. Julie said the following at 3:39 PM on Dec 23:]

82

I'm a SAHM and I cannot imagine anything I could do that would be more important. Even if I were a surgeon, I wouldn't be irreplaceable--many people are trained as surgeons. But no one could replace me as my chldren's mother.

Also, this season of raising young children is just a season. I had many years of contributing in the work world before becoming a mother. And once my kids are in school, I'm sure I'll be doing something in my profession again, even if part-time.

[83. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 4:08 PM on Dec 23:]

83

Response to BDB (#73):
First off, realize that I am in Canada, not the US, so things work slightly differently for me.

I have looked into it and spoken with other women in my field who wanted to stay at home and raise their familes, who took the next step (of the further education to be able to move up more) and then for reasons of the continuing costs worked instead of being able to be a SAHM, and have told me to really think and pray through it and the decisions I make regarding this before I do anything. I haven't been told not to, but I have been cautioned to make this decision very carefully because of the possible implications in the future.
(A tax write off is really only of value if you have income, and they can only be carried forward a certain # of years, which if I have children and take time off to be a SAHM it will be longer than I can carry those write offs forward for. Because I don't want to be returning to work as soon as any possible children begin school - I want to be home when they get home from school and be available to be home if they are sick or if something happens at school. So I'm not lookin at 5-10 years until they start school; I'm looking at 15+ years until they are quite a bit older than that.)

So, while I appreciate the thoughts in what you say, it's not so cut and dry in my situation.

I realize it may seem to be something somewhat strange to be so worried about when I'm not even dating someone at the moment, but to me it is important. Unless there is no way that it can be helped (ie. my husband is unable to provide for the family because of injury/ilness/etc.) I don't want to be working when I have a family of my own - I want to be a SAHM - but I do have to adequately be able to support myself until that day comes, hence the decision to make. So, that makes this a hugely important matter to me and why I resonated with the person who wrote the letter asking this question originally - it could have been me, just talking about a different career choice to make.

[84. Heather Koerner said the following at 6:25 PM on Dec 23:]

84

Kathleen (#78):

I'm really enjoying our exchange because (I hope you don't mind this), but I see so much of myself in your comments.

My head is swimming with all the things I wish I could tell you over coffee (or, hot chocolate, in my case).

But the main thing is this: It's not about my preferences or your preferences. As believers, it's about God's Word.

And, as far as I can see, there is nothing in God's Word that says you absolutely should not pursue constitutional law anymore than it said I absolutely should not have pursued my graduate studies.

But, I hope that you will really look into God's Word about what He expects from you as a mother. These are not just small children. They will be your children, and your responsibility to raise in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

As I've written before (probably, ad nauseum some would say), 80% of mothers say that full-time work is not ideal for raising children. Some say part-time work is best, some say full-time at home -- but they are in overwhelmingly agreement that full-time work does not work during the childrearing season.

It's not because they have lost their intellect in pregnancy. It's not because they always had a dream to be a SAHM. It's because they are suddenly facing the stark reality that their own children affect their lives and their hearts profoundly.

I really do wish you the best in your studies. Please know that I understand your concerns more than you think. I, too, thought a season of full-time motherhood would be stifling. I just want to testify to you that it is not. That my children mean so much more to me than I could have ever imagined or prepared for. That God knows what He is doing when He commands certain things for women.

As you go forward, please immerse yourself in the Word and give yourself flexibility. You may not change your mind. You may be among those 20%. But I don't think you will be.

[85. Heather Koerner said the following at 6:35 PM on Dec 23:]

85

Puzzled (#81):

Heather, if I take your response at face value, it seems like you believe that the only true women are those that stay at home and raise children, and those who do not are living for less important things.

I said no such thing, nor have I ever. In my previous comment, I specifically referenced married women with children, then gave references for how biblical womanhood plays out in the life of a single woman.

How can you honestly say that God commands women that the highest priority is in having children?

I said that for women who have children, their children should be a priority, not the highest priority. The highest priority is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind.

This has nothing to do with being "called to singleness", as if being called is defined as empiric evidence that when no man would marry you, you are then called to singleness; this, implicitly, is how Boundless tends to define "the call".

That statement is false. Anyone who wants to know the Boundless position on the call to singleness can take the time to read the articles I referenced.

Puzzled, if we are going to have a fruitful discussion, we need to respect each other enough to accurately describe each other's positions and engage those positions honestly.

[86. Ro said the following at 8:09 AM on Dec 24:]

86

It does not help the government for married woman to get medical degress if they only intend to work part-time. The place could have gone to a man (a bread-winner) for a family, who would be willing to work longer hours. Not sure what the health system is like in America, but doctors are already over-worked. The last thing they need is people going in to med school with the intention of working part-time. Also, this tends to be an admissions question into most university or residence programme posts as these posts are highly coveted by both male and female students. It is dishonest to state when asked "Where do you see yourself in ten years" as married, with babies and working part-time. You might not be the person the admissions council thinks will make the greatest contributions in terms of hours overtime worked and patient load and contribution to training other doctors. Woman taking up medical degrees if they know for sure they are going to get married and work part-time compound the problem of why men can't get into these professions and provide for their families in a way so that woman can stay at home.

[87. Ro said the following at 9:14 AM on Dec 24:]

87

Sorry. That should read it is dishonest not to state "Married, with babies, and working part-time," if that is really your intention, and at the point when you are asked by the admissions council that is how you feel. Admissions councils generally ask, "What do you plan to do with you degree," and, "How will you benefit this country / what difference will you make with this degree?"

Based on the answers, they can select candidates they feel most meet the countries' need at that time, particularly with a limited number of posts and economic resources within government for healthcare. (I am not bitter, I was accepted to numerous medical schools at 17 on completing high school, and was offered a merit scholarship by the medical school that I went to study at).

[88. IMO said the following at 9:43 AM on Dec 24:]

88

Ro,
I'm a little confused by a couple of your comments.

You say doctors are already overworked. Isn't it better to have 2 part-time doctors rather than 1 overworked one? I know which doctor I would prefer to see.

Also, to state the obvious, the intentions of a woman can change.

And not all doctors work for the government. What about private practice? Private hospitals?

There are other parts of your comment that are confusing but maybe only to me because I don't understand the admissions process. I don't understand what lifesyle status (current or future desire) has to do with getting admitted into a program. How much do grades, contribution to medicinne, and other factors count?

[89. JB said the following at 11:44 AM on Dec 24:]

89

Lea #80,

While "witnessing" can mean many things, I do think it's important to point out that it is unprofessional and unethical for a physician to proselytize his/her patients. There is a significant power differential in the doctor-patient relationship, so things which it would be acceptable for a doctor to do in her/his daily life are not acceptable in a professional context. For the same reasons, it's unethical for a doctor to have a romantic relationship with a current or recent patient.

Ro #87,

In the United States, at least, it's illegal for a medical school to ask about or discriminate based upon an applicant's family situation. You can't ask if applicants are in a relationship, or pregnant, or plan to become pregnant. Of course, the whole, "What do you see yourself doing in ten years" question is valid, but not as a way to weed out people who want families.

As it happens, more new doctors in the US are women. From a health-policy standpoint that may be a net positive as women tend to enter more family-friendly professions, like primary care, which are greatly needed.

[90. Kathleen said the following at 12:55 PM on Dec 24:]

90

Heather, thanks for your comments, but I should clarify one thing. I don't have children (and am not sure that I want them), so the comments about making children a priority are not applicable. And, again, I've seen no command from Christ that marriage or children are in any way required, so I think we ought to be careful with any insinuations or expectations that add to what Jesus actually said.

Ro: while I agree that a government that makes an investment in a med student's education has a right to expect a certain return on that investment, your proposal as you've stated it is nonsensical and illegal. You can't discriminate against all women just because a few choose to drop out and become stay-at-homes, nor can you provide special favors for males over women.

JB, thanks for making that point about proselytization.

[91. Ro said the following at 1:23 AM on Dec 28:]

91

#To no one in specific, God weighs motives and our heart as opposed to our actions. So no, I do not think their SHOULD be gender discrimination in the work place. (I've worked in corporate, I've experienced the glass ceiling). "Test me Oh God, to see if there is anyway in me that is impure." (Paraphrasing King David as I cannot remember the exact verse). If anyone else knows it, would be great if they could reference the verse). Also, in segmenting populations for analysis, woman tend to be better at multitasking, and men are better at single focus tasks, concentrating all their energy on one task at a time. Which is why men are likely to make the greater contribution ito workload hours. But their are many exceptions to this rule from noth sides. (Gary Small's The Two Sides of Love Refers). I am not sure what the priorities or current government health policy is in your country, I can only speak from mine. Med schools here select people who are statistically most likely to achieve the overall goals of the government, overall including empowering women and health care. As with most things in life, its a delicate balance that everyone battles to get right. Otherwise, I'm weighing out of this discussion due to time constraints! I have the greatest respect for woman and mothers who dedicate their lives to their patients. I just know that mothers who do this find it very difficult and burdensome. And those that manage are great and earn wonderful incomes for the family. And yes, every country needs female doctors, they bring special skills to he job that are much needed and the interaction of male and female students and doctors means that they learn and develop skills from each other, which is a great thing. I have to weigh out due to time constraints, so will not be commenting further on this post. Enjoy the rest of the discussion!

[92. anonymous said the following at 11:45 AM on Dec 28:]

92

Ro,

The year was 1986, and I had a similar "Where do you see yourself in 10 years" type of question on my application to one of the graduate schools which I applied to. I told them that I wanted to marry and raise children. Of course, I got rejected. I've always felt like an idiot for saying that, even though it was the true answer straight from my heart at the time I answered it. Thanks for your post. I feel validated by it. It took awhile, but I did marry and now am raising a child. I don't regret anything.

[1. BDB said the following at 2:16 PM on Dec 15:]

1

The Angkor Hospital for Children in Cambodia is run by a husband/wife team. Both are physicians. The hospital hosts a lot of surgeons who come in on short-term trips and they line up a bunch of patients who need that specialty. And those short-term surgeons teach the local Cambodian nationals how to do the procedure when the Western doctors are gone.

I'm sure if you e-mailed them, they'd be happy to give a realistic explanation of the advantages and disadvantages.

The debt discussion is good. Avoid debt.

Lots and lots and lots of smart women switch from medical school to nursing or allied health - such as Audiology or Optometry - because such careers make good use of a scientific mind while providing very flexible career arrangements. About 70% of Audiologists and Optometrists are women - moms working and job-sharing part time but making as much as a part-time doctor as many full-time office workers.

Also consider Pharmacy, which requires a solid preparation such as a Chemistry degree, but offers flexible career choices since many pharmacists now work for companies like Rite-Aid, CVS or Costco.

Just avoid the student loan debt so that you have flexibility to choose those part time options.

[2. Julie said the following at 3:05 PM on Dec 15:]

2

Hmmm...that's tricky. I would think the toughest aspects of medicine to integrate with motherhood would be high student loan debt and also the work schedule. And a big one could be waiting so long to have children that fertility becomes an issue. That said, one of my friends is a female doctor and she works part-time. However, her husband has a fairly flexible job (teacher), and also she does not live and work in the US. Integrating work and motherhood (even a demanding career like medicine) is easier to do if you live in a western country with generous maternity leave, a very positive view of job shares, and universal healthcare (both parents could work part-time if that worked best). Also, I imagine her student loans are less than an American doctor's, but then her salary is lower too.

It could also be that God would call a woman to the mission field, another place where it's often easier to be a working mother.

It would be sad to not have the contributions of women in fields lik medicine, law, academics, etc. That said, I am glad I have a less demanding career that can be done flexibly and also put on hold.

[3. Andrea-Elena said the following at 4:38 PM on Dec 15:]

3

Interesting that you'd post this today, after I just watched the live simulcast of Living in Emergency: Stories of Doctors Without Borders with some friends last night. On the way home, my best friend commented that we need more Christians doing things like that. Now... MSF (Médecines Sans Frontières - Doctors Without Borders, which was started in and is headquartered in France) wouldn't be ideal for a woman who was trying to raise kids (they don't send the families with the volunteers), but medical missions, as BDB described, around the world vary. And not only do we need doctors but also those who will spread the gospel as they care for the physical needs of people.

I hear that endocrinology also is a great field for women who want to be doctors, wives, and mothers.

I agree with Julie -- our world still needs the contributions of women gifted to work in fields that in prior eras were seen as for men only, but the work can be chosen and done in ways that the woman can be flexible. Childrearing is only for a season in a woman's life; those skills and experience that she trained for and gained in her education years will still be valuable when her nest is "empty."

We can't have "it all." Especially not all at once. But we can have a lot of what we dream of doing and having in life. But one must choose. And every choice means that you give up another option.

And not everyone must have the same life. (Just as not all of us are called and gifted to be doctors!!)

[4. Kellie said the following at 4:45 PM on Dec 15:]

4

I know plenty of female doctors with children, so it is possible.
But if you want to be able to focus more on your family, a less demanding field might be better.

Nursing and the allied health fields are good alternatives and worth looking into.

[5. Lindsay said the following at 4:50 PM on Dec 15:]

5

I went through the Pre-Med curriculum at Notre Dame and while I elected to put my degree to work in a more consultative business-oriented practice, many of my friends went to Medical School. It is a long and expensive journey. One that will be extremely challenging and difficult if the commitment is not 100%. Ultimately, that's what led me in different directions. While I felt called to practice medicine, I had serious concerns about the sacrifices and outcomes. However, for those people (women AND men) who can resolve the the challenges... why not go for it?! The world needs intelligent and caring physicians and it's so awesome that women have that opportunity today!

Women can choose specialities with shorter residencies and more flexible working hours. Personally, I think women are also particularly well suited to fields like pediatrics and family practice... especially if they are mothers!

[6. anonymous said the following at 5:49 PM on Dec 15:]

6

I'm a young woman pursuing graduate education.

This definitely strikes a nerve with me and brings waves of sadness, gratefulness, indignation, and wisdom all at once. If only we all had this comprehensive a perspective in setting out into our careers and life paths.

I was raised with the encouragement that I can be anything that I want to be. And I didn't doubt it until Boundless. Boundless has shown me (or rather made me face the reality) that by saying "yes" to a career or a certain life-path, that I am effectively saying "no" to another.

Now, I worry and fear (two sins, I know) that I cannot both accomplish my academic and intellectual goals AND fall in love and be a good wife and mom. And this is causing me no small amount of grief and pre-mature pain.

But it DOES happen, quite often, that successful businesswomen with impressive jobs do raise emotionally healthy children who love God and have Godly, if imperfect, marriages. I would really like to hear the perspective of someone who has done so.

[7. Befuddled said the following at 5:49 PM on Dec 15:]

7

What about men?

Should men avoid medical school because of time commitments encroaching on their families? Please, let's not be sexist by giving into archaic social constructs of the family system.

[8. C. U. said the following at 6:31 PM on Dec 15:]

8

I would advise to pursue the most desirable doctorate possible as hard as she can. There is no promise she will be married in a couple of years (how many readers are 30 and single?). But if she finds a man, gets married, and has a kid but no degree—it is a win. If she gets her PhD—it is a win. Like I tell people, ‘if you don’t do anything; nothing will happen’.
On a side note, I know a number of people who have gotten advanced degrees while married and/or working, myself included.

[9. Kelly said the following at 8:50 PM on Dec 15:]

9

Med school is a hard road filled with sacrifice, and it’s one I wouldn’t recommend a Christian woman embark on without God’s direction. I’m a married woman physician with a lot of debt in the midst of residency (that means 60-80 hr work weeks!), but I’m confident this is where God wants me, partly because my training has been achieving sanctification in my life almost as effectively as my marriage has. My advice is not to pursue an MD out of selfish ambition. It has to be for God. I spend sleepless nights caring for others’ sick children while postponing having my own. And somehow, I hear God telling me that’s exactly how He wants me to serve him right now. We’re on a self-imposed tight budget to pay back our debt, but my future job security and flexibility are great. My husband’s career is on the back burner while he follows my career geographically, but I praise God for my husband’s opportunities to witness at his temporary factory jobs. We’ll still likely have a couple children before I’m 30, and be out of debt in less than 15 years. You just can’t be fooled into thinking you can do it all. There will be sacrifices on both ends- maybe waiting longer to have kids, maybe having trouble finding a husband while you study 24/7, definitely forgoing a career in neurosurgery, or in my case, just not pursuing a subspecialty career right away. Balancing the career and family is hard, but in my case, it works because of God.

[10. diana said the following at 8:54 PM on Dec 15:]

10

I personally would not attempt it, but obviously that's an individual choice. I've worked as a nurse practitioner for years and functioned much in the same capacity as a physician. While enjoyable and an outlet for service to others, it is incredibly difficult to maintain my primary responsibilities in the home. I can NOT imagine holding the even more demanding position of being a doctor. I would not even want to....! Guess I've worked too close to the fire for too long, to want to actually jump in : )

There are some women who are excellent multitaskers and who can handle the pressures of a high profile job like medicine. I acknowledge my own limitations and realize that I am not one of those women. However, I can work in a very closely related field and satisfy my interests in that way.

One caveat though...if I ever want to stop working, I'd be hard put to be able to afford to keep up all my licensures, malpractice insurance, prescriptive fees, and continuing education costs on my own. These are currently covered by my employer, and just the cost of staying certified, so as not to lose my years of hard work, is staggering. Plus, there are plenty of days when I long to be a homemaker and devote my time and talents to my family. However, because I have the skills, I'm expected to use them; and because I can earn good money, I am expected (and needed) to do so. My accomplishments are also my chains to the workplace : ) I kind of envy a friend whose husband married her knowing she didn't work outside the home, and she is not expected to. Though I enjoy my work, sometimes I wish I'd been a tad less ambitious in some regards.

Consider all the factors, girls.

[11. Lynn said the following at 9:31 PM on Dec 15:]

11

In response to this topic, blogger Homemaker, MD (http://homemakermd.com/) posted a link to her blog on Carolyn McCulley's site.

Her response is the most insightful and thorough treatment of this topic that I've ever seen. I found her perspective invaluable(she is a medical doctor who left the practice to stay home with her daughter).

She clearly has a high view of the calling to be a wife and mother, but she also provided sound support for women to pursue their education. Though Kassian and McCulley gave good answers, I felt that Homemaker, MD's thoughts were more complete. She fully considered the range of a woman's motivations for considering medical school. She also presented some valid counter-arguments to the prevalent ideas that attending medical school necessarily means that a woman will have fewer opportunities to form relationships that can lead to marriage. Also, her response includes important reminders of the many ways that a woman's education can add value to society as well as to her family. For example, she notes that her medical education makes her uniquely positioned to support her husband who is also a doctor.

Her response is detailed, thoughtful and thorough so I won't attempt to reproduce it here. I will just reiterate that it is the best Christian blog entry I've ever seen on this topic.

The bottom line is that a woman has to consider her gifts, abilities, desires and options prayerfully in consultation with trusted mentors, family members, pastors etc., and then step out in faith on the path that she believes is best.

[12. Phoebe said the following at 10:49 PM on Dec 15:]

12

This is a question I have wondered about. I myself am in music, but I know a woman who is studying to be an OB-GYN doctor. She got married right as she started med school. Her husband comitted to help and support her in the process. He has moved with her when she needed to move. Needless to say, they haven't had children yet and probably will not be able to for many years. I'm not sure what I think about this. It seems like an inversion of the design-- the woman encouraging her husband in his work, and the couple receiving children as blessings from the Lord. And her husband is very gifted in many ways-- I'm not saying it's a waste of his gifts to subordinate his plans to hers, because he has stayed active. But I just don't know if I would recommend this path to others.

When is it right for a woman or a couple to choose career plans over God's design for having children?

[13. mission field mama said the following at 11:29 PM on Dec 15:]

13

I just have to comment on the assumption made by #2 that it is easier to be a working mother on the mission field. Quite the contrary.

Learning a new language. Shopping in a new culture. Often multiple times a week out of necessity because your fridge is so stinkin small or because it's the only way things will stay fresh. Homeschooling, which is a reality in many of the "front lines" positions now being pursued by missions boards. It is certainly not any easier to be a "working mom" on the mission field and actually, could be several levels more difficult when you factor in language learning, culture stress, and the stress on the MK.

[14. P&P said the following at 6:03 AM on Dec 16:]

14

If this young woman has the talent, drive and "call" to become a physician, she should do it. I honestly believe that if she were to abandon that path, she wouldn't be as good a mother. She'd be frustrated and resentful that she wasn't using her full talents.

There are ways to avoid at least some of the debt associated with med school: choosing one affiliated with a state university, which offers lower tuition, living in a less expensive area, even getting into programs where your loans are forgiven if you practice in a rural area or free clinic for a period of time. There's also the military, but you do risk being sent into Iraq or Afghanistan these days.

It's also possible to become a nurse practicioner, physcian's assitant, physical thereapist, occupational therapist, psychiatric social worker as well as dozens of other jobs associated with the medical field.

But if your dream is to become a doctor, go for it.

[15. Alicia said the following at 7:45 AM on Dec 16:]

15

I was in this same position when I was in college. I struggled with figuring out if it was possible to merge my two desires. I finally realized that it is possible to have a career as a physician and be a mom, but I didn't want to have to work so hard to make it feasible. I didn't want to always feel like I wasn't able to give 100% to my job or my family.
So I decided to become a dietitian instead. I definitely make way less money, but I like what I do, and I can easily take an extended break to stay home when my husband and I have kids, and still keep up my RD credentials.
Sometimes it's frustrating to feel like I could have done more, particularly on days where I'm feeling less respected in my career, but when I really analyze why I'm feeling that way, it comes down to pride. I want people to be impressed with what I do, or to automatically think that I must be very smart. Pursuing a medical career for those reasons would be a terrible mistake and only feeding my sinful nature.

[16. RLynn said the following at 7:52 AM on Dec 16:]

16

Interesting comments that Mary and Carolyn have made...as someone who made this choice years ago, here's my two cents: I went to a Christian college thinking about 3 areas: medicine, nursing or Christian Education--in some ways, it's turned out that I've been involved in all 3. I chose nursing for several reasons: my grades were ok, but I realized very soon that I might need to spend extra time to get into med school, and was it worth it? Also, I wasn't sure if I wanted to be making life and death decisions for other people. Thirdly, I wanted to get married and have kids, perhaps serve overseas--and I thought that nursing would be "less threatening" a degree to have than a medical degree for a future husband and that it was much more flexible--I could leave the profession, come back to it, work part-time, etc. There was also a comment about going to medical school later on--it's a little harder to do this, but not impossible...my sister went back to medical school in her 30's--some schools won't even interview you--they don't like "mature" students, where some treasure what your life experiences bring to the profession. Well, all these years later, I'm still single, and many of my friends who went to med school are married and have kids and work creatively to juggle home and job. One of the speakers talked about not having the opportunity to meet someone during med school--that's not necessarily true--turns out that doctors marry other doctors now, not nurses. I go to church with a couple where they met in the registration line in med school on the first day of class! Anyway, nursing turned out to be a great choice for me--I went back to graduate school and now have spent time on the mission field, and am employed by a major medical school as a continuing education instructor. All this to say, that if the Lord is leading her to med school AND He has a family planned for her, that it will work out.

[17. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:34 AM on Dec 16:]

17

Befuddled (#7) said:

"Should men avoid medical school because of time commitments encroaching on their families? Please, let's not be sexist by giving into archaic social constructs of the family system"

The difference is that on the whole, men are expected by society to be out working and supporting a family. SAHD's are not the norm. Honestly, do most women including yourself (I assume you are one) find it attractive when a man says outright while dating, "My goal one day is to be a stay at home dad raising the kids while my wife brings home the bacon."

This leads us to only two solutions according to your reasoning then. Either no one becomes physicians because it's too stressful for families, or only single people can go into the profession. Both alternatives border on absurdity.

If a woman wants to go to med/law/business school and become a high powered doctor/lawyer/CEO, that's her preroggative. I don't see any strong Biblical objections to it. But I do believe that many (women and men) do not always consider the cost and impacts that their choices can have on their lives, and thus may limit their opportunities (children, financial freedom, etc.) later in life.

[18. BDB said the following at 9:55 AM on Dec 16:]

18

Befuddled (#7) wrote:

>>What about men?

Should men avoid medical school because of time commitments encroaching on their families?<<

If they don't think about it and focus solely on their career, they will probably end up divorced because their family gets tired of them never being around.

[19. Irene M. said the following at 9:57 AM on Dec 16:]

19

Befuddled (#7), ditto. How exactly do all of those men care for their children when working such long hours?

[20. Julie said the following at 10:04 AM on Dec 16:]

20

#13 Missionfield mama: Good points! I guess I was thinking of missionary friends I have known. They found people to help with housework and childcare at very affordable rates. Also, the parents themselves are able to be a team with work/family because they can both work reduced hours.

[21. Irene M. said the following at 10:15 AM on Dec 16:]

21

"Honestly, do most women including yourself (I assume you are one) find it attractive when a man says outright while dating, "My goal one day is to be a stay at home dad raising the kids while my wife brings home the bacon."

YES! I entered the dating look for someone who wouldn't necessarily be a SAHD, but who loved children, wanted to spend time with them, and was supportive of my ambition. Lucky for me, I'm now engaged to someone who wants an educated and successful wife. He'll never be a SAHD, but his career gives him more flexibility than mine and he's 100% dedicated to being a (future) dad.

One thing that is really helpful. Is that my fiance doesn't want to stay in his career forever. He's happy in his industry and wants to stay in it for quite some time, but later in life wants to go on to graduate school and change careers. My success would allow me to support him and our family, just as he will be supporting me through law school. In that regards, my work would increase my family's freedom and would enrich my husband's life.

[22. Tami said the following at 10:30 AM on Dec 16:]

22

Mike T (17) -- I follow some of your argument, but wanted to point out: as evidenced by the women who have written here, not every "...woman [who] wants to go to med... school" does so because she wants to "...become a high powered doctor..." Many attend because they feel an incredible burden to serve the least of these, whether children and underpriviledged women in this country, or people in countries where adequate medical care is a rarity. They really do feel called by God to serve as doctors or nurses. And many do serve with husbands -- I think of Drs. Reginald and Catherine Hamlin (featured in the MARVELOUS documentary, "A Walk to Beautiful"), who worked in Addis Ababa conducting surgeries on impoverished women who suffered from fistulas.

So I agree, you really have to count the cost before entering the profession, and the education involved with it. But, it need not necessarily be a choice driven by greed or a desire for power or status.

[23. Ambrosia said the following at 11:32 AM on Dec 16:]

23

Wow so many perspectives.... well here's mine.

I am a Christian, a female, a physician and a pregnant wife.

First let it be completely understood that It is my soul felt belief that God called me into the field of medicine to share the message of his love in a more "physical' sense; all the same he gave me the responsibility of choosing the appropriate field. This responsibility led me to choose family medicine rather than the more intense and time consuming field of OBGYN. It was hard but I knew it was what God wanted.

Once upon a time I felt conflicted in my mind... I had a lot of church mates going for summer missions but I was "stuck" doing rounds in a hospital. When I confided in my pastor, he essentially told me that I was God's hands... while he uses some to share his love verbally, he uses people like me to share his love "physically".it was one of the most re-assuring and comforting thing I have heard so far from the church in regards to my occupation.

In no way am I disillusioned about my priorities...God..family..medicine. To ensure this, I took a yr off after medical school to get married and have my first child, with the grace of God,love from my husband and support from my family... I am able to be all that God wants me to be without sacrificing much. When I am done with residency, I will be working only part time so I can focus more on my family.

Please...please...please... this is a personal decision that women need to come to with guidance from God. I am not bitter but I am tired of hearing the church belittle/Guilt women who have the strong conviction that medicine is where God wants them to be. I have classmates who will be leaving the US when done to work in 3rd world countries performing surgeries on babies. There are single women who will be working in orphanages to the glory of God. There are physician wives who follow their evangelist husbands to the mission filed to help heal bodies while their husbands help heal souls.

I am also tired of hearing that women who strive for anything higher than a high school degree or a degree more "intense" than music is a "rebellious, unsubmissive feminist who can never "bow" to the leadership of their husbands.

Rather, let the church encourage these women to live a live that will foster the ability to sense God's direction.

[24. Kellie said the following at 11:54 AM on Dec 16:]

24

Re #7 and #17: I agree completely. I would hope that most men would desire to be involved fathers also look for flexible employment. However, this often does not pay as well as more demanding careers.

My husband and I are pretty much equally involved in the parenting of our child, but this also means that I work too, as it would not be finacially fisable for me to stay home full-time. It just depends on priorities.

[25. Marie said the following at 1:30 PM on Dec 16:]

25

Why don't you just ask a female doctor how she handles having a family? There are plenty of women doctors to ask! Me, I have always had a woman doctor--I for one would feel strange getting a breat exam from a man.

If this is your dream, go for it! Who knows? Perhaps you have the cure for cancer! You'll never know how far you can go unless you try.

[26. Lynn said the following at 1:59 PM on Dec 16:]

26

Ambrosia #23, Amen, amen amen!!!! Your story is beautiful! As a single, professional woman, I am so encouraged by women like you. Thank you for your post. If you haven't done so yet, you should definitely check out Homemaker, MD's blog.

[27. Lynn said the following at 2:12 PM on Dec 16:]

27

Anonymous #6,

You wrote: "Boundless has shown me (or rather made me face the reality) that by saying "yes" to a career or a certain life-path, that I am effectively saying "no" to another.

It is so sad that you feel that way. Please read Ambrosia #23's post, and also Homemaker, MD's blog post on this topic (http://homemakermd.com). Take heart and be encouraged!!!

[28. Befuddled said the following at 2:52 PM on Dec 16:]

28

Mike:

"The difference is that on the whole, men are expected by society to be out working and supporting a family. SAHD's are not the norm. Honestly, do most women including yourself (I assume you are one) find it attractive when a man says outright while dating, "My goal one day is to be a stay at home dad raising the kids while my wife brings home the bacon.""

I am a man, actually. No offense taken, in case you are concerned.

I don't see why individuals of either sex should be concerned with what a potential partner thinks in relation to social norms if they indeed want to have children and care for them. What is more important? Why should a man or a women bend to social conventions? I don't see much weight in the argument of "chicks aren't going to find this attractive."

I'm not saying that both parents need to work and spend time with the children equally (though this is ideal). What I'm saying is that women should not be designated automatically to take care of the kids. That's absurd.

Maybe the woman will be the breadwinner. Maybe it will be the man. Maybe they will work and spend time with their children equally. Maybe they will choose not to have children. We need to stop forming conventions so quickly.

[29. A.M.C. said the following at 3:56 PM on Dec 16:]

29

Re: Mike Theemling (#17)

This leads us to only two solutions according to your reasoning then. Either no one becomes physicians because it's too stressful for families, or only single people can go into the profession. Both alternatives border on absurdity.

Actually, I see a third possible solution:

Reform the profession of medicine to make it less "family-unfriendly" to clinicians of either sex. After all, the root of the problem here is really that medicine, as things now stand, can be "family-unfriendly" no matter who practices it because of the manner it is practiced.

==> In terms of possible policy interventions, regulations that set a cap on the number of hours that physicians (especially those in residency programs) are allowed to work (in one shift, or in a week) would be a good start. Admittedly, this could increase costs in the short run, as more clinicians would be needed per patient to provide the same amount of health care. But this policy does come with possible long-term benefits, including reduced stress on the individual physicians and reduced medical error (studies have shown that the frequency of medical errors double when an 8-hour shift is extended to a 12-hour shift, and quadrupled when it becomes a 16-hour shift).

[30. Anonymous female said the following at 4:08 PM on Dec 16:]

30

Well, as a medical student, don't go into medicine if you are a man or a woman who values family! ;) joking aside, I am kind of serious. I have seen most of the marriages and relationships in medical school undergo enormous strain, sometimes ending in divorce. My own initial relationship went under due to the inflexibility of the profession.

My advice would be the same for men or women- only do it if you can't imagine being happy doing something else. It is a wonderful, deeply fulfilling profession that truly was a calling in my life. I have no debt, so that has helped me keep my priorities in line- but that is a major consideration. I will easily be able to take a few years off or go part time when I decide to have children- most of my friends won't be able to say that. Carefully consider your speciality and think about how flexible it is. Some can be done from home, some have great part time slots, a few are especially family friendly. Some (i.e. surgery!) really are not.

Pray often and ask God where you belong. He has spoken powerfully in my life since I choose this profession and provided a Christian man who is a doctor himself to share my love of missions, medicine and family. I would have never met this person or shared the deep love that we have for each other and for Christ had I chosen not to become a doctor. In fact, I don't suggest marrying anyone who isn't a doctor if you do decide on this profession. No one else will understand why you would ever work over 80 hours a week + overnight call every 3 day+ slave labor wages for 8 years :)

[31. kaj said the following at 5:09 PM on Dec 16:]

31

So, then, what women would be qualified then to be a female doctor? We sure need them (kudos to Comment #25!).

[32. Kelly said the following at 5:34 PM on Dec 16:]

32

Anonymous female- I can't imagine being married to a doctor! I like that my husband isn't in medicine. He doesn't totally understand my work schedule, but he's still sympathetic to my post 30-hr shift fatigue!

[33. Heather Koerner said the following at 8:06 PM on Dec 16:]

33

Befuddled (#28):

You talk about how we shouldn't be concerned about "social norms" and shouldn't "bend to social conventions."

You say that "women should not be designated automatically to take care of the kids. That's absurd."

I, too, am unconcerned with conventions. But I am concerned with Scripture.

I'm wondering what you think the Word has to say on this topic. Do you think that it says that the primary nurturing role of children is interchangable between a man and a woman?

That there is no difference in God's design of a mom and a dad?

[34. Lynn said the following at 8:25 PM on Dec 16:]

34

Anonymous female #30,
You wrote "In fact, I don't suggest marrying anyone who isn't a doctor if you do decide on this profession. No one else will understand why you would ever work over 80 hours a week + overnight call every 3 day+ slave labor wages for 8 years :) ".

I find it so interesting that you wrote that. A family friend, who has recently graduated from medical school, explicitly stated that he won't date women who are not physicians for similar reasons (though he did make an exception in his rule to date a biology Ph.D., non-MD). It makes sense.

When you consider that a wife's role as a "help-meet/corresponding part" is not defined by cooking and cleaning, having a similar educational/professional background is a plus. I think that's something single women forget. Your education/profession may very well render you the perfect "corresponding part" for the right man.

[35. Homemaker, MD said the following at 6:38 AM on Dec 17:]

35

As evidenced by the many insightful comments on this issue, this is a both complex and relavant issue facing Christian women today. Thank-you for the compliments to my post on this issue. I simply ran out of room in a comment box!

So many more excellent points have been brought up here, which I'll continue to discuss with readers over at my blog over the next few weeks, as my Christmas preparation schedule allows!

[36. Loris said the following at 8:59 AM on Dec 17:]

36

Mike Theemling #17, Yes, that is the expectation that the man will be the primary breadwinner, though I know some families where that's reversed.

I was interested in a very cute, artistic guy in college, and I suspected he liked me back. However, I admit I did see him in a different light when he admitted he had no ambitions and would happily be a house husband. He switched schools and that was the last I saw of him until he contacted me a month ago. In the email, he apologized for his immaturity and aimlessness and said he was proceeding with career plans. I'm glad he's finding direction in his life, but five years ago, I knew I needed to find a man with goals, and this guy wasn't it. I'm not going to dwell on the might-have-beens since the Lord did bring me a husband soon after that guy passed out of my life.

[37. Marie said the following at 9:12 AM on Dec 17:]

37

I laughed out loud when I read some of the comments. Being a teacher is not a flexible job. I know. Both my parents were teachers. Sure, your work day may not be as long. But think of all the at home work. My mother, who works at a charter school, frequently puts in 60-80 hours a week. My father, who was a university professor, decided to switch to state jobs because he would be able to leave work at work that way. Also, music. I am a music major. I know lots of musicians. The other day I was in the airport coloring with a little girl from Ghana and listening to her mother tell me how she chose social work over music because music required too much work. I told her I was considering the same shift. Music requires frequently 4-5 hours of practicing a day, sometimes more. And one small injury can be career-ending (carpal tunnel syndrome for me). I have read a post from another musician on Boundless who said that she quit music to pursue marriage because music was too time-consuming. Any profession can be life-consuming if you allow it to become so. What is truly the problem is our culture's materialism and our frequent idolization of our careers.

[38. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:16 AM on Dec 17:]

38

Some interesting responses. I'd like to address a few of the comments/questions people had.

Irene (#21) said,

"YES! I entered the dating look for someone who wouldn't necessarily be a SAHD, but who loved children, wanted to spend time with them, and was supportive of my ambition."

I assume the ambition is to be a physician, and am glad you found a nice fit.

My point was not that dad's should not be involved with their children's lives or suggest that childrearing is only a "woman's job". My point was that simply when you have kids (from infants until old enough to go to school), there are only a handful of viable alternatives for raising them:

A) Have a parent be home full time
B) Have a parent work from home
C) Have the child go to daycare
D) Hire a nanny

Option B may not always be available and options C and D can be very expensive. Maybe you don't want to daycare your kids (a debate for another time). True, maybe you have parents (grandparents) that can act as daycare providers. But again, that is often not the norm. That may leave only option A.

Now, the question is, "Which parent is it going to be?" The father? Chances are, it's not going to be. Chances are, it's going to the the mother. Why? Maybe because of desire, maybe because of income or career advancement, or a combination of that and other factors. But the statistics show that it's not usually the dad that stays home. It's not being sexist, it's just being realistic.

So you can end up with the dilemas that some mothers face. Continue to pursue a career (with daycare if the work-at-home option isn't there), or nix the career (or put it on hold) to be the SAHM. I'm not going to say which is "better". That's between a husband/wife and between them and God. But I do believe that there are women who do not fully take this reality into account. Maybe they took on a lot of student loan debt and feel trapped. They have to pay these bills and that second income is the only way to do it. But the problem is, if they go with the daycare option, a good chunk of that money could go towards that. Or perhaps it's a career which you really "can't take a break from" (like being a doctor, esp if you are doing residence). Maybe the husband will make the sacrifice and be the one who stays home. But what if he is reluctant?

Just something to think about, and reiterating that people should count the costs, both financially and in terms of family impact before diving into such a demanding profession.

Befuddled (#28) said:

Why should a man or a women bend to social conventions? I don't see much weight in the argument of "chicks aren't going to find this attractive."

I agree, there isn't a lot of empirical evidence to back up my claim, but a combination of anecdotal evidence and common sense will tell you that although women may like a guy who enjoys kids and likes being involved with them, I seriously doubt that most women would want to date someone who they knew right off the bat wasn't interested in pursuing a career but in being a full time dad. Furthermore, I don't know of too many men who really want to be full SAHD's anyway. If I'm wrong ladies, speak up now!

This leads to the problem discussed above. When children come along, you only have a limited number of options to raise them in their early years. And the option of Dad being at home full time is usually not an option.

A.M.C. (#29) said:

"Reform the profession of medicine to make it less "family-unfriendly" to clinicians of either sex. After all, the root of the problem here is really that medicine, as things now stand, can be 'family-unfriendly' no matter who practices it because of the manner it is practiced."

I agree, that the M.D. or related professions are not generally family friendly. However, that's not likely to change anytime soon. There's what "should be" and then there's what actually is. But here's the thing, most people know the medical career can be hard on family. People should not be naive about it (as med school alone gives a glimpse of what is required).

Bottom line: Male or female, if you want to become a doctor (or any profession) for whatever reason whether it be interest in the subject, financial rewards (why lie, how many would go into the field if it wasn't well paying?), God's calling, or a combination that's fine. But one should be soberly aware how it may affect your future family plans.

And one last (un-PC) thing. Even though I have no qualms dating someone who is more "successful" than myself (I've dated physicians before), some men are intimidated by them.

[39. Sara said the following at 11:08 AM on Dec 17:]

39

"Integrating work and motherhood (even a demanding career like medicine) is easier to do if you live in a western country with generous maternity leave, a very positive view of job shares, and universal healthcare (both parents could work part-time if that worked best)."

Any yet, in post after post and article after article, Boundless has advocated against all of the above. Why oppose family friendly policies that make life more managable for husbands, wives and kids? Maybe the question isn't "can she be a doctor?" but "how can we advocate for a society in which she can be a doctor, wife and mother?"

[40. Ted Slater said the following at 11:28 AM on Dec 17:]

40

FWIW, my dad is a physician. Back when he was in private practice, he encouraged me *not* to follow his career path if I wanted to enjoy family life.

He's working with the Veterans Administration now, rather than private practice, and his schedule is much more amenable to family life. I think it's about 40 hours per week, plus being on call a few times per month.

The truth is that we've only got a certain number of hours per week. If we spend all of those "at work," the truth is that we'll have fewer to spend "with family." That's just the way it works. I'm not condemning physicians -- my dad is a physician, after all -- I'm just making clear what the big point here is: The decisions you make now about which career you pursue will affect your family life.

Now, let's hear it for day care, surrogate parents (i.e., teachers), and stay-at-home-dads!

[41. Heather Koerner said the following at 3:06 PM on Dec 17:]

41

P&P (#14) writes:

I honestly believe that if she were to abandon that path, she wouldn't be as good a mother. She'd be frustrated and resentful that she wasn't using her full talents.

Hmm ... am I "frustrated and resentful" because I am not using my "full talents" as a SAHM? Nope. Rather, I found that when I embraced the Scriptural call to make my family my priority, God found ingenious and creative ways to use my talents to their full capacity.

[42. Louise from Chicago said the following at 4:00 PM on Dec 17:]

42

Comment 41, Heather if you are happy using your abilities as a SAHM that is just fine.

People are different, though, and a particular life path that is wholly satisfying for one person might be extremely frustating and depressing for another.

[43. Kellie said the following at 7:04 PM on Dec 17:]

43

Re #41: I am interested to understand what you mean when you say you "embraced the Scriptural call to make my family a priority" as a SAHM.

I get very weary of hearing that mothers who work out of the home do not value their families, put their careers first, etc, etc, and I hope this not what you are implying.

[44. Homemaker, MD said the following at 7:15 AM on Dec 18:]

44

There were a lot of skills I picked up during my medical training as a physician that were transferrable to my new vocation as a homemaker. I'm discussing them in more detail over at my blog www.homemakermd.com. I'd love to hear about the skills some of you found to be transferable!

[45. Ambrosia said the following at 7:46 AM on Dec 18:]

45

Personally during med school, I had it already settled in my mind that I would NEVER marry a doctor. I want my home life to be about more than medicine and the most refreshing thing is to come home and "leave medicine on the porch".

It also helps with scheduling, hubby has a "normal" job with a "normal" schedule so this will def come in handy.

1st thing I learnt in my Psychology class is that stats show "doctor couples" tend to end up in divorce and people use this fact as an excuse to warn people away from medicine; we need to understand this has nothing to do with medicine per se ( look at the national statistics of divorce in america) but more about the condition of the heart and what foundation the relationship was built on.

[46. em said the following at 8:13 AM on Dec 18:]

46

Heather (#41) - good for you! but we are all different and should be flexible with other's choices.

In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity, right? Whether she becomes a physician or not, God will continue to be at work in her life and her future family.

Others have raised the more relevant questions (and they are relevant for both sexes):
* WHY do you want to be a doctor? (ambition, prestige, Grey's Anatomy, love for people / science that helps people, desire to minister to your patients domestically or as a missionary or missionary spouse, other...)
* HOW do you intend to integrate your profession with future family life, if God so provides? (is the top priority job, spouse, kids? will you work reduced hours, put your career on hold, continue at the same pace and expect your spouse to understand)
* WHAT other careers could possibly satisfy the desires God has laid on your heart? Are you drawn to any of them? do other careers seem "second best" for you?

If your heart check leads you to believe that God - not your selfish ambition - is drawing you to medicine AND you have thoroughly considered other options as well as how you will deal with the stresses of your chosen profession, then GO FOR IT!

[47. Ted Slater said the following at 10:08 AM on Dec 18:]

47

This entire issue brings up a very difficult truth: We only have 24 hours in each day. And, as Jesus' pointed out, where our treasure is, there will our heart be also.

If we spend 80 hours per week working away from home, we just won't have any relational time with our family, including our kids. If our "treasure" is outside the home, that's where our hearts will be also: not inside the home. That's just a fact.

If you want to be in private medical practice, and are studying to achieve that goal, it's likely that you won't have much of a family life. There are exceptions, of course, but in general when you're in private medical practice, you'll simply be unable to be there for your family very much. If you think you can balance the two, you're probably mistaken. For as I said, there are only 24 hours each day.

I can't help but think that being a mother means being there for your children. If you delegate motherly responsibilities to someone else (day care, nanny, au pair, teachers, etc.), then you're missing out on personally raising your children, missing out on building a personal relationship with your children.

This isn't controversial. This isn't hard. The choice is yours: If you put most of your time and energy into your career, then that is where your treasure and consequently where your heart is. If you put most of your time and energy into your family, then that is where your treasure and consequently your heart is. Again, the choice is yours, of course, but you do have to choose one over the other.

I mourn the fact that I only see my kids maybe a couple of hours each weekday, since I have to be here at work. And I only really engage them for maybe an hour or less each day. If my wife were working outside the home, then our children would engage their parents just a few minutes per day, and engage surrogate parents for many hours per day.

Doesn't anyone think that's tragic, that so many children are disengaged from both their parents because their parents, whether by choice or necessity, spend most of their hours and energy on their careers? I truly find that heartbreaking.

This is a life of sacrifice. If we have children, weigh heavily whether they should be sacrificed on the altar of career.

[48. Julie said the following at 10:32 AM on Dec 18:]

48

I agree with you Ted, which is why I'm a SAHM. But I think the ideal would be for society to be structured in such a way that parents could share working and childcare more equally. Maybe the Dad could work 30 hours a week and the Mom 10. Or the Dad 25 and the Mom 15. It doesn't work in the US because someone usually has to be working full-time to get health benefits for the family. Also job shares are not supported and encouraged to the extent they are in many other western countries. And as tragic as it is that so many kids kids spend so much time away from parents, at least in these other countries, almost never is this true of children under 6 months or even 1 year.

[49. Ambrosia said the following at 10:38 AM on Dec 18:]

49

Mr Slater,
(I really wanted to write Ted but since I have never written directly to you.. I feel a bit disrespectful....LOL)

I think everyone here has been stating their own opinions... How they see the situation and what they think the answer is....

My problem with your last statement is that it is full of absolutes...telling me that "I just can't..." and "it's a fact that..." makes me feel like you don't think that there is any other possible way.

I think there is.... actually, I know there is; not because I read it in a magazine or because I am full of hopeful wishing but because I LIVE THAT LIFE!!!

Now don't get me wrong, it is a life of sacrifice and I have come to terms that I am working the "lowest tier possible" in medicine but that does not take away from the fact that I can raise my children, be a wife and still be a physician.

Please let's stay away from absolutes especially when we have no solid evidence that the the opposite is impossible.

PS: I am still a fan! LOL

[50. Louise from Chicago said the following at 10:42 AM on Dec 18:]

50

Comment 47, that is precisely why I made a conscious decision not to have children because I don't want to sacrifice my own goals.

I have been severely criticized througout my adult life for this choice; secular people are just as bad too!

I would like to ask at this time that I would not be innodated with quiverfull quotes from the Bible.

I have heard it all before.

And Mr. Slater, in comment 47 you are implying that if a mother works a full time outside job she is not able to "personally raise her children and build a personal relationship with her childen."

You yourself sir work full time outside the home...have you been able to build personal relationships with your children?

Next time I'm asked to quote an instance where Boundlessline disparages working mothers, I've got it right here!

[51. Tami said the following at 11:02 AM on Dec 18:]

51

I think the question has evolved a bit, from "Should this young as-yet-unmarried woman pursue a career as a doctor" to "Should ANY women (and, to a certain extent, men), including those who are already married with children, be doctors?" Though the difference seems subtle, it is not negligible.

We have no idea what lies ahead of the young woman who wrote the initial question. Despite her best efforts, she may not marry until she's 35, and in the course of that time she may serve wholeheartedly as a doctor to some people who God planned for her to serve -- and thus she really is seeking treasure in heaven. Or she may start school, meet and marry, and decide to start a family... and then quit (again, demonstrating where her treasure is). As others have said, God wastes nothing -- even if she quit (which is not a horrible thing if done for thoughtful reasons!), she may still meet people, learn things, etc. that are vital to her life as a wife, mother, and servant of God. School might even put her in the position of meeting the man she may marry.

As I've stated elsewhere, of course this is a decision not to be taken lightly; and as a believer, one would hopefully not be doing it for status reasons (but rather because one felt a genuine call and sense of mission towards it).

So to me, the key is remaining flexible and responsive to God's call -- which may at some point mean starting, and quitting. If she genuinely is led to pursue that degree - well, I wouldn't disobey that call.

[52. jen said the following at 11:08 AM on Dec 18:]

52

Ted,
You say that "If you put most of your time and energy into your career, then that is where your treasure and consequently where your heart is. If you put most of your time and energy into your family, then that is where your treasure and consequently your heart is." Then you say that "I only really engage them (my children) for maybe an hour or less each day." Does that mean that you're putting your treasure into your career? I just don't see why there's a different standard for working moms than working dads.

[53. Ted Slater said the following at 12:03 PM on Dec 18:]

53

First, I appreciate the comments on my comment #47. This issue is close to everyone's heart, including mine. And including yours.

Ambrosia (#49) -- I was careful how I worded my comment. I acknowledge exceptions. Some physicians, including my dad, work fewer than 50 hours per week, and consequently have more time for family. You say, "Please let's stay away from absolutes." That's exactly what I did.

Louise from Chicago (#50) -- yes, if a mother works 80 hours per week at the hospital or clinic, then she is not able to "personally raise her children and build a personal relationship with her children." Cannot be done, due to the cold hard fact that there are only 24 hours in each day.

Regarding my being away from home some 50+ hours per week for work: yes, of course, that hinders the degree to which I'm able to build personal relationships with my three daughters. Did you not read the paragraph that begins "I mourn the fact that I only see my kids maybe a couple of hours each weekday"?

Jen (#52) -- I have a biblical responsibility to provide for my family. I work outside the home to earn an income to provide for my family. I miss my children. The thing is, our daughters *do* get to spend a good deal of time with one of their parents: my wife. If they didn't get to spend much time with any parent, that would be tragic, as I've stated.

I'm not against "working mothers." Saying that I am is just sloppy and mean spirited. A number of my co-workers are "working mothers," and in most cases I affirm their decisions. In my comment #47 above I'm speaking specifically of mothers who commit to working 80 hours per week outside the home as physicians. And I'm warning those who are planning for such a career that that is not very conducive to being a mother with whom their children will have any kind of meaningful personal relationship.

[54. BDB said the following at 12:03 PM on Dec 18:]

54

Julie (#48) wrote:

>> Also job shares are not supported and encouraged to the extent they are in many other western countries.<<

I wish to reiterate my first post - job shares are VERY common among doctors of Audiology and Doctors of Optometry. The fields have become heavily populated with moms - so many that the fields themselves have changed from what we expect of general practicioners.

Of course, note that those fields are not subject to the same kinds of government control of health care. If those kinds of doctors make a mistake, it doesn't cause injury, they just need to re-make the glasses or adjust the hearing aid. Consequently, malpractice insurance costs for those fields are way, way, way lower. Lower lawsuits, less government interference, lower overhead costs = less need to see tons of patients to cover that overhead. And the jobs are much more family friendly.

When my grandmother was a nurse, during WWII she worked nights because there was a nursing shortage. In fact, she WANTED to be a SAHM, but people from the town came to the saying, "Hey, there's a shortage of nurses, we need her to work." So my grandfather worked days, she worked nights, and both basically spent one shift per day working and one shift per day with the toddlers. They didn't see each other awake during the war.

Later on, my grandmother went to work for a doctor's office. That meant day-time shifts. And they let her take off several summers when the kids were out of school and there was work to do on the farm. Further, that doctor's office would do medical outreach to the poor on their own time/dime, particularly to the local Indian tribe and the various migrant worker camps since the area was still quite agricultural.

I know that some pharmacists prefer working for Target or Costco because they dont have to worry about their own overhead or insurance. They can just be an employee and go home at the end of the day. It looks like a pretty attractive profession for someone with a scientific mind who wants predictable hours.

In closing, I want to paraphrase a Wall Street Journal that examined disparities between men and women in Fortune 500 executive jobs. In a surprisingly honest observation, they noticed that most of those jobs are crap - constant travel, vast hours, they wipe out everything else in life. That's why most top executives are divorced.

You cannot serve both God and money.

[55. Julie said the following at 1:03 PM on Dec 18:]

55

Good info, BDB. I think it's great for women to think ahead about their options. If they want to take a career break, or work reduced hours, what jobs/specialties will be most conducive to this?

[56. BDB said the following at 1:23 PM on Dec 18:]

56

Julie (#55) wrote:

>> If they want to take a career break, or work reduced hours, what jobs/specialties will be most conducive to this? <<

In addition to the allied health fields?

One advantage of getting a teaching credential is that it's a career one can come BACK to pretty easily, and also serves as excellent prepartion for anyone who want to home school and/or work part time at a private school. Having the credential is always an advantage when applying for those part-time slots.

Accounting is another field that lends itself to part-time work. Particularly for those women who push through and get their CPA done by age 24 or 25. Once the have the CPA, they can go into tax, which is seasonal work, or handle the accounting for a small organization that doesn't really need a full-time accountant. It's also possible to find part-time accounting work for firms during their busy time, like tax season.

One big advantage of the part-time professions is that for those with the skills, it's possible to make as much money working part time as someone without the professional skills working full time.

[57. Kristen in CA said the following at 2:15 PM on Dec 18:]

57

As a daughter of a CPA, BDB, I would argue that this is a counter example for what you are arguing. Tax season (which is several months long), most CPAs pull 70-85 hour work weeks. There are entire chunks of my childhood where I don't have memories involving my mom. Then again, she did what was necessary to help support the family b/c you don't go into the ministry for the money (though what churches pay their pastors is separate discussion for another time). Now that she works for the IRS, her hours are much more reasonable. :)

[58. BDB said the following at 2:55 PM on Dec 18:]

58

#57 - yes, it depends on how you structure it. A tax accountant will be working those 70-80 hour weeks, but perhaps only during tax season, and not working at all the rest of the year. Still, with tax season done before summer, it can work out well, depending on the other spouse's work schedule.

A regular, non-tax accountant, might be assisting with year-end close and regular G/L accounting during tax season to help with that work load. It varies widely by organization.

Personally, I think year-end close is easier handled by the accounting people who do it all year, so that it's not such a big mess. But a nice clean accounting close can make preparation of the tax forms a lot easier for the tax accountants.

[59. Kelly said the following at 4:05 PM on Dec 18:]

59

I just want to reiterate that medicine doesn't have to be a ridiculously time-consuming career forever! Through much of med school and residency, yes, but after that, there's flexibility. I personally love the fact that I will be able to work part time and still make a good living. It's just a really hard road to get there. I've always said I would get a an advanced degree and then be a SAHM. Who knows, maybe I will! But hopefully I'll still have time to pour into my children while working a regular work week as a doc.

[60. Heather Koerner said the following at 4:19 PM on Dec 18:]

60

Kellie (#43):

I do believe that Scripture calls married women to make their husbands and (if they have them) children their priority.

I don't think (though I can see how my comment may have read that way) that the only way to make your family a priority is by being a SAHM.

(Though, as always, I highly affirm it and take every opportunity I can to remind our female readers that 80% of moms of minor children believe that working full-time is not ideal.)

Still, though, Ted makes an excellent point. If a mom spends the majority of her time away from her family and hands over the childrearing responsibilities to others, can she honestly say that her family is her priority?

[61. Heather Koerner said the following at 4:25 PM on Dec 18:]

61

Louise (#42):

P&P's statement implied that this young lady would be frustrated and resentful if she chose not to pursue medicine.

I was simply pointing out that I disagree.

Your point is valid, though. I do not believe that everyone must live exactly as I do--two kids, SAHM in Oklahoma, freelance writer, etc.

But I do believe in encouraging young women to look at Scripture, see what it outlines as priorities for women, and ask themselves the really hard questions about how to work those priorities into their future.

And, as a believer, I don't think it's ever extremely frustrating or depressing when we follow the Word.

[62. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 4:32 PM on Dec 18:]

62

(OK, I had a comment written and then my computer froze and I lost it, so I will attempt to summarize what I was saying in a few sentences in the time I have before I have to leave.)

As I read some of these comments I wonder if some of the struggle of young women in making these decisions comes from the fact that we are (generally) getting married at an older age than generations before us, meaning that we are having to make some decisions about how to support ourselves for longer on our own. I know that's the situation I find myself in right now.

Do I return to school to get the next level of education to allow myself to continue to move up in my career, and end up with less fleixibility in the future? Or do I just stop now with any advancement in my career (as I've gone as far as I can with my current education) and possibly spend years in one place with no new opportunities, when there is no prospect of marriage in the near future (depsite being pro-active about moving in that direction)?

[63. BDB said the following at 5:13 PM on Dec 18:]

63

Tamara (from Canada) (#62) wrote:

>>Do I return to school to get the next level of education to allow myself to continue to move up in my career, and end up with less fleixibility in the future?<<

Why would more education give you less flexibility in the future? Granted, some organizations might see you as over qualified. But...that only matters when someone is reading your resumé!

Besides, I think the Watters met in grad school, if I remember correctly. Try to attend the social events, though, particularly those that mix different departments. Those in the Education department are more kid-oriented than those in the MBA program, for example.

[64. Lea said the following at 9:36 PM on Dec 18:]

64

As a female medical student this is a very relevant topic! A couple of years ago I was asking this exact question. In fact I'd put off applying to do medicine for the very reason that it took too long and wasn't a good choice for a woman wanting to be a mother. But then I just found myself having done a degree, 3 years older and not any closer to being married than I had been before. After a lot of prayer and talking with my parents I decided that I couldn't live my life waiting, what if I don't get married til I'm 40 and I could have been working as a doctor for 10 years? (I really would like to be married and have kids way before that though!) And God has confirmed my decision heaps of times, for example when I was applying I knew I'd be out of the country during the interview stage, so I thought that would be the end of it. But I was given the very last interview which happened to be on the day after I flew back in. So, I'm now a 3rd year med student and loving it. I still struggle with this issue but trust that God will continue to lead me. I also know that this is what God wants for me but might not be right for the young woman asking the question. And thanks to homemaker, md for your blogs! I'm already getting used to the sleep deprivation :-P

[65. Julie said the following at 9:14 AM on Dec 19:]

65

Someone said this above, but I think it is generally true that the more education/experience you have, the easier it is to work part-time and yet still bring in significant income. So working hard at your career while single (and married with no children) could result in more time with children later on.

Also, there is a golden opportunity to save a lot of money in the years pre-children. My husband and I wouldn't own a house today if we hadn't lived on my income and saved his in the early years of our marriage. It sure helped that I was able to make the money I did (nothing spectacular but more than I could have made with a BA). And then as I put him through his advanced degree, and started having children, I was able to support us on a part-time income rather than having to work full-time and put my child in daycare.

[66. Kellie said the following at 10:30 AM on Dec 19:]

66

#60: Thank you for the clarification. I agree with your points. I am neither a SAHM or a full-time working mom (I work part-time, although not as part-time as I wish).

I do believe the general way of parenting upheld by Christians (being active and involved in your child's life, among other things) is probably most easily done when one parent is at home full-time. But it is not impossible to do as a working parent. It might just take some hard work and sacrifice, but it is worth it.

[67. Kyra said the following at 7:13 AM on Dec 20:]

67

I always find it interesting that "career/family balance" questions are primarily asked by and of women, as though only women have children, and men don't need to think about career/family balance. The main points I want to address below are:
1) My concern over the idea that any woman who wants to have children would be counseled to avoid entire fields of career options.
2) The lack of attention that is given to the stress that many careers place on fathers.

Something that doesn't seem to be touched on too often is that there are whole fields of careers that have the potential to be extremely demanding and time consuming to anyone who also plans on being a parent. Men included. There is such a thing as a father who works too much, and many young fathers I know struggle to be both superstars at work and at home. The issue is certainly exacerbated in this generation, when most fathers who work in demanding fields are married to women who also work outside the home.

There are many men who, anticipating the future work hours of their chosen career, seek wives who intend to be career stay-at-home moms. This is a great way to ensure that long work hours, travel etc. do not have a stressful impact on the family as a whole. I see nothing wrong with a reverse scenario, in which a woman who pursues a career in, say, neurosurgery or corporate law seeks to marry a stay-at-home dad or man with a far less demanding career.

I really take issue with the notion that any woman who works full time and possibly places her children in daycare to do so is a bad mom. No one would suggest a man who works full time is sinfully making his work a priority over his children. If a mother works outside the home, presumably it's for the same reasons fathers do--to bring in income, and to contribute to society as a whole by utilizing her talents, intelligence and education. I find it unfortunate that a man's motives for pursuing certain careers would never be questioned and yet a woman's motives are. As a woman who used to work at a law firm where all of the attorneys were married, I saw how the fathers struggled to balance work and family (all of them had three or more children). The main partners set firm-wide standards for reasonable work days that did not extend past 5:30 PM, and flexibility regarding family emergencies and child care.

The point of the above example is to illustrate that rather than asking "as a woman, is my chosen career compatible to motherhood?" Both men and women should be asking "as employees, what can we do to make corporations and all workplaces more pro-family?" One of the best ways to do that is by having mothers working for those very same corporations, running the HR departments, pushing for such luxuries as equal pay, adequate maternity leave policies, lactation rooms, etc. It's doubtful that offices completely staffed by men would be aware of the unique needs of, say, single working mothers. But other women might. If all women who wanted to be mothers avoided demanding careers in politics, for example, we would have no women in serving in our government, drawing attention to the needs of women and mothers.

[68. BDB said the following at 3:48 PM on Dec 20:]

68

Kyra (#67) wrote:

>>running the HR departments, pushing for such luxuries as equal pay,<<

Alas, this statement sounds like someone who's never worked in corporate America.

Working in HR isn't going to give anyone any power to really discuss pay. They will be seen as whining about things they don't understand.

Work in finance. If you want to change pay, you need to be able to justify the compensation for the position. That means being able to demonstrate, mathematically, that a particular postion is worth the pay.

I know that in my organization, women in the same roles as men, with the same experience, made the same money.

But sales always makes the most money, they also get fired the quickest for not making their sales goals.

Positions that require a degree pay more; and more is expected of the individuals in those roles. An A/P clerk is not expected to do the level of work expected of a financial analyst. But that level of analytical work is a skill set developed in school - it is unreasonable to expect anyone to teach you how to do it on the job. They expect the people who fill those jobs to come to the position already prepared.

Usually you will find time flexibility in those jobs where there are multiple people doing that job. Key positions usually have only one person who is expected to be the decision-maker. That person usually does not have anywhere near the flexibility in their time. They are paid more because they are expected to essentially be available all the time when a decision is needed. You do trade flexibility for pay. This is true in all industries.

That's why it works well for audiologists and optometrists to be moms: it's usually a one-time exam with little if any follow-up treatment. It almost doesn't matter who does the initial exam, you may never see them again. If one is home with a sick kid, the other doctor can handle the one-time patient needs. And there is often not any need to contact the doctor who did the initial exam to make decisions on future treatment. The patient is not adversely impacted by the doctor being unreachable. In any case, the technology used by all the doctors is the same, so another doctor can read the file and adjust the glasses or hearing aids based on what the patient is experiencing now; what they were experiencing at their exam two years ago is far less relevant.

[69. Heather Koerner said the following at 1:38 PM on Dec 21:]

69

Kyra (#67):

I find it interesting too.

Rather than being "concerned" and "finding it unfortunate" that women ask these questions about family/career balance, I find it a confirmation of Scripture. That our God has purposed -- designed us, even -- as men and women for different responsibilities and roles.

That those purposes and responsibilities are for good -- the good of His creation, the good of His kingdom and our own personal good.

That, though we might assist our spouses in their areas of responsibility, there are still areas to which God has called us to have dominion over.

That explains to me why women, even unbelieving women, would be so conflicted over leaving their children to the care of others.

That said, though, I do agree with your point about how fathers, too, need to be intentional about their own career choices. My husband, for example, changed from a job which required weekly traveling to one which required much less once our second child was born.

[70. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 3:14 PM on Dec 21:]

70

BDB (#63) asks:
Why would more education give you less flexibility in the future?
---
Because of the annual costs that would then be involved in maintaining my qualifications that would be coming out of my own pocket if I was not employed somewhere. And the continuing education requirement to keep up my qualifications. These would make it so that I would have less flexibility in what I did regarding working in the future with a young family (that I would ideally like to be home with rather than owrking), as I would have significant costs that I was paying out of pocket rather than them being paid, at least partially, by an employer.

[71. Kathleen said the following at 3:31 PM on Dec 21:]

71

Not everyone has the skill, disposition or training to be a physician.
I'd also remind those who are considering a high-skill, high-value career to talk to others in the same position. Asking an SAHM about being a surgeon is like asking a janitor about being a CEO -- you're just not likely to get fact-based first-hand information.

[72. Heather Koerner said the following at 2:54 PM on Dec 22:]

72

Kathleen (#71):

Being a SAHM is not a high-value career? I'm hoping that you mean that it is not monetarily compensated.

But the comparison to a janitor? Biting my tongue ... a lot.

Still, I think you have a point. If a woman is considering a career which may require extensive education, years of training and (possibly) hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, best to actually get an idea of what that life will look like and the benefits/sacrifices that come with it.

However, though a surgeon can speak quite authoritatively on her field, it does not necessarily qualify her to speak on biblical womanhood.

Best also to look around for women who love the Lord, exhibit the fruits of the Spirit, have Ephesians 5-based marriages and are raising children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Then ask them how they do that and what career/education choices they have made in their lives.

[73. BDB said the following at 5:50 PM on Dec 22:]

73

Tamara (#70) - I can see how the continuing education costs are a consideration. I think I'm spending about $2000 out of my own pocket for continuing ed this year - hmmm...I'll be it's tax deductible. Make a note...

Here in California, once people complete their credential, they may indeed allow it to go dormant, but the can re-activate it by doing the continuing ed for just that year, not going back and doing it for every year. This would facilitate finishing the degree and raising a family for 10 years, then reactivating. I think that the actual career path might include some part-time work first, which brings enough income to cover the continuing ed, THEN going back to full time.

But, those are tactical issues that vary based on the specific credential and one's specific financial situation. A CPA running their own business probably needs to keep the credential active. But, if they're just helping out a small business, a CPA is not technically required; only the auditor needs the CPA to sign off on the financial statements. For a simple business, an inactive CPA probably has plenty of accounting knowledge to prepare the financial statements.

Heck, I have sufficient knowledge to prepare the financial statements without a CPA. But my accounting knowledge is more specific to the industry I worked in; a CPA is expected to understand a wide variety of businesses to practice public accounting.

[74. Kathleen said the following at 6:58 PM on Dec 22:]

74

Heather, yes, I meant high-value as well-compensated. Healthcare also provides an essential and life-saving service which also makes it high value.

And I wasn't comparing stay-at-homes to janitors, I was making the point that one field of endeavor is not the best source for information about an entirely different field. If I want to know about being a surgeon, I'll ask a surgeon, not a homemaker. Vice versa. Go right to the source if you want accurate intelligence.

As for 'biblical womanhood', I'm not sure what that means, nor have I ever heard anyone say 'I'm planning a career in biblical womanhood'. I don't recall Jesus saying much about it either, so I don't imagine it's something that many women make a top priorty. Some might, but in my experience, it's not a big factor.

[75. Heather Koerner said the following at 9:14 AM on Dec 23:]

75

Kathleen (#74):

Healthcare does often provide life-saving services. Godly mothers shape and equip eternal souls. Still gotta go with the latter for value, in my book -- at least for certain seasons of life.

And I'm thinking that you did not listen to the interview. They were not SAHMs giving advice to a surgeon on how to be a surgeon. You might want to give it a listen.

By "biblical womanhood," I mean searching Scripture for what God intends for a woman's life -- His design, His purpose, His roles, etc. for her. I agree that many women do not make this a top priority. That's, IMO, tragic. I'm hoping the ladies of BoundlessLine will make it a top priority.

If you'd like to learn more about it, check out the links in comment #69.

[76. Puzzled said the following at 9:58 AM on Dec 23:]

76

Heather,

Godly physicians shape and equip eternal souls. If Godly physicians take their role in the world seriously, they could witness to thousands of patients, hundreds of nurses and other physicians, and thousands of other individuals in healthcare. All within a few years time. And at the same time you are serving individuals' physical needs.

Go ahead and try to do that while staying at home raising 5 kids. Not saying the latter can not be effective, I'm just saying that the scope of impact is hundreds/thousands of times greater than for the SAHM.

[77. Puzzled said the following at 10:18 AM on Dec 23:]

77

Heather, your links do not mention Paul's recommendation that men AND women stay single. How does that fit in with your biblical womanhood worldview?

Are those women who work tirelessly to bring the nations to faith in Jesus, less of a woman?

Are those women who are single on the mission field, less of a woman?

Are those women who do not have children because they are unable to, less of a woman?

[78. Kathleen said the following at 12:56 PM on Dec 23:]

78

Heather, thanks. I think it's perfectly fine for you to priortize your own preferences, that's what we all do. But the point I'm making is that your personal preferences -- stay at home, children, etc. -- are not shared by everyone.

For instance, I'd be bored out of my mind at home all day with small children, thus I am pursuing a demanding career in constitutional law. I don't think this makes me better than an SAHM, but it is a better choice for my skills and interests.

As for the interview, I didn't say that the non-career women were trying to tell a surgeon how to be a surgeon. I think we all agree that would be ridiculous. What I said is that young women should hear directly from a surgeon on what a surgeon's life is like. None of the women in the interview were surgeons, nor had high-prestige careers, so they were not very representative of those options. I'm sure they can speak quite well to their own choices, but a young woman should get as broad a perspective as possible when she is considering her choices.

Hope that clears it up.

[79. Heather Koerner said the following at 1:20 PM on Dec 23:]

79

Puzzled,

I certainly don't want to discount the amazing contributions that godly doctors (or teachers, social workers, counselors, etc.) can have.

Yet, when I read Scripture, I see that God has called women to make their families and homes a priority. I don't think He has called me to something that is a waste of my time. I don't need to question Him about how I can have the most impact for His kingdom. He's already told me.

Yes, there are many things of importance that a woman can do. But, as I read Scripture, I can find nothing more important that a married woman with children can do.

But, you asked, what if a woman is called to singleness? How does that fit into a view of biblical womanhood? Here are a few articles from our archives that address that question:

• Called to Singleness
• Reflecting on the "Mystery of Marriage"
• A Balanced View on Singleness
• Better Together
• Radical Womanhood: The Mommy Wars (which was written by Carolyn McCulley, who gave the interview referenced in this blog)

[80. Lea said the following at 1:25 PM on Dec 23:]

80

Puzzled (#76), yes Godly doctors do have the opportunity to serve many people over the course of their careers. Unfortunately, I have heard from many Christian doctors that the reality of being able to witness to their patients is quite different. Busy and exhausted doctors often don't get much time at all with patients and are often quite disappointed and depressed about how much they are actually able to witness. Contrast that with a SAHM who is continually able to witness and talk with her children. I'm optimistic (and possibly naive enough) to hope that I will be able to use my career to bring Jesus' message to many people, but I think comparing how worthy our life paths are by numbers witnessed to isn't very helpful.

[81. Puzzled said the following at 2:44 PM on Dec 23:]

81

Heather, if I take your response at face value, it seems like you believe that the only true women are those that stay at home and raise children, and those who do not are living for less important things.

If you're going to write such extreme things, you should at least back it up with scriptural commands.

Show me the commands from Jesus that say women must abandon all other pursuits and to marry and have children.

Show me the commands which say going to the nations and preaching the gospel is secondary in importance to having children.

Show me the commands which say that true womanhood is in the home and not serving the physically-needy wholeheartedly.

Show me the commands to deny yourself daily to take up your cross and to bear children.

When the years and painstaking effort spent in properly rearing children in a family takes precedence over Jesus' commands for Kingdom-centered living, how can you honestly say that God commands women that the highest priority is in having children?

This has nothing to do with being "called to singleness", as if being called is defined as empiric evidence that when no man would marry you, you are then called to singleness; this, implicitly, is how Boundless tends to define "the call". This has nothing to do with "married women with children can do those things too, just not with as much time"; if you are going to specify extremes, you forgo arguments in the gray areas.

It is comical that the pendulum has swung 180 degrees, from the idea that marriage is not an inferior pathway to serving God, to where it is now where marriage is the only way to meaningfully serve God and all other pursuits become secondary.

[82. Julie said the following at 3:39 PM on Dec 23:]

82

I'm a SAHM and I cannot imagine anything I could do that would be more important. Even if I were a surgeon, I wouldn't be irreplaceable--many people are trained as surgeons. But no one could replace me as my chldren's mother.

Also, this season of raising young children is just a season. I had many years of contributing in the work world before becoming a mother. And once my kids are in school, I'm sure I'll be doing something in my profession again, even if part-time.

[83. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 4:08 PM on Dec 23:]

83

Response to BDB (#73):
First off, realize that I am in Canada, not the US, so things work slightly differently for me.

I have looked into it and spoken with other women in my field who wanted to stay at home and raise their familes, who took the next step (of the further education to be able to move up more) and then for reasons of the continuing costs worked instead of being able to be a SAHM, and have told me to really think and pray through it and the decisions I make regarding this before I do anything. I haven't been told not to, but I have been cautioned to make this decision very carefully because of the possible implications in the future.
(A tax write off is really only of value if you have income, and they can only be carried forward a certain # of years, which if I have children and take time off to be a SAHM it will be longer than I can carry those write offs forward for. Because I don't want to be returning to work as soon as any possible children begin school - I want to be home when they get home from school and be available to be home if they are sick or if something happens at school. So I'm not lookin at 5-10 years until they start school; I'm looking at 15+ years until they are quite a bit older than that.)

So, while I appreciate the thoughts in what you say, it's not so cut and dry in my situation.

I realize it may seem to be something somewhat strange to be so worried about when I'm not even dating someone at the moment, but to me it is important. Unless there is no way that it can be helped (ie. my husband is unable to provide for the family because of injury/ilness/etc.) I don't want to be working when I have a family of my own - I want to be a SAHM - but I do have to adequately be able to support myself until that day comes, hence the decision to make. So, that makes this a hugely important matter to me and why I resonated with the person who wrote the letter asking this question originally - it could have been me, just talking about a different career choice to make.

[84. Heather Koerner said the following at 6:25 PM on Dec 23:]

84

Kathleen (#78):

I'm really enjoying our exchange because (I hope you don't mind this), but I see so much of myself in your comments.

My head is swimming with all the things I wish I could tell you over coffee (or, hot chocolate, in my case).

But the main thing is this: It's not about my preferences or your preferences. As believers, it's about God's Word.

And, as far as I can see, there is nothing in God's Word that says you absolutely should not pursue constitutional law anymore than it said I absolutely should not have pursued my graduate studies.

But, I hope that you will really look into God's Word about what He expects from you as a mother. These are not just small children. They will be your children, and your responsibility to raise in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

As I've written before (probably, ad nauseum some would say), 80% of mothers say that full-time work is not ideal for raising children. Some say part-time work is best, some say full-time at home -- but they are in overwhelmingly agreement that full-time work does not work during the childrearing season.

It's not because they have lost their intellect in pregnancy. It's not because they always had a dream to be a SAHM. It's because they are suddenly facing the stark reality that their own children affect their lives and their hearts profoundly.

I really do wish you the best in your studies. Please know that I understand your concerns more than you think. I, too, thought a season of full-time motherhood would be stifling. I just want to testify to you that it is not. That my children mean so much more to me than I could have ever imagined or prepared for. That God knows what He is doing when He commands certain things for women.

As you go forward, please immerse yourself in the Word and give yourself flexibility. You may not change your mind. You may be among those 20%. But I don't think you will be.

[85. Heather Koerner said the following at 6:35 PM on Dec 23:]

85

Puzzled (#81):

Heather, if I take your response at face value, it seems like you believe that the only true women are those that stay at home and raise children, and those who do not are living for less important things.

I said no such thing, nor have I ever. In my previous comment, I specifically referenced married women with children, then gave references for how biblical womanhood plays out in the life of a single woman.

How can you honestly say that God commands women that the highest priority is in having children?

I said that for women who have children, their children should be a priority, not the highest priority. The highest priority is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind.

This has nothing to do with being "called to singleness", as if being called is defined as empiric evidence that when no man would marry you, you are then called to singleness; this, implicitly, is how Boundless tends to define "the call".

That statement is false. Anyone who wants to know the Boundless position on the call to singleness can take the time to read the articles I referenced.

Puzzled, if we are going to have a fruitful discussion, we need to respect each other enough to accurately describe each other's positions and engage those positions honestly.

[86. Ro said the following at 8:09 AM on Dec 24:]

86

It does not help the government for married woman to get medical degress if they only intend to work part-time. The place could have gone to a man (a bread-winner) for a family, who would be willing to work longer hours. Not sure what the health system is like in America, but doctors are already over-worked. The last thing they need is people going in to med school with the intention of working part-time. Also, this tends to be an admissions question into most university or residence programme posts as these posts are highly coveted by both male and female students. It is dishonest to state when asked "Where do you see yourself in ten years" as married, with babies and working part-time. You might not be the person the admissions council thinks will make the greatest contributions in terms of hours overtime worked and patient load and contribution to training other doctors. Woman taking up medical degrees if they know for sure they are going to get married and work part-time compound the problem of why men can't get into these professions and provide for their families in a way so that woman can stay at home.

[87. Ro said the following at 9:14 AM on Dec 24:]

87

Sorry. That should read it is dishonest not to state "Married, with babies, and working part-time," if that is really your intention, and at the point when you are asked by the admissions council that is how you feel. Admissions councils generally ask, "What do you plan to do with you degree," and, "How will you benefit this country / what difference will you make with this degree?"

Based on the answers, they can select candidates they feel most meet the countries' need at that time, particularly with a limited number of posts and economic resources within government for healthcare. (I am not bitter, I was accepted to numerous medical schools at 17 on completing high school, and was offered a merit scholarship by the medical school that I went to study at).

[88. IMO said the following at 9:43 AM on Dec 24:]

88

Ro,
I'm a little confused by a couple of your comments.

You say doctors are already overworked. Isn't it better to have 2 part-time doctors rather than 1 overworked one? I know which doctor I would prefer to see.

Also, to state the obvious, the intentions of a woman can change.

And not all doctors work for the government. What about private practice? Private hospitals?

There are other parts of your comment that are confusing but maybe only to me because I don't understand the admissions process. I don't understand what lifesyle status (current or future desire) has to do with getting admitted into a program. How much do grades, contribution to medicinne, and other factors count?

[89. JB said the following at 11:44 AM on Dec 24:]

89

Lea #80,

While "witnessing" can mean many things, I do think it's important to point out that it is unprofessional and unethical for a physician to proselytize his/her patients. There is a significant power differential in the doctor-patient relationship, so things which it would be acceptable for a doctor to do in her/his daily life are not acceptable in a professional context. For the same reasons, it's unethical for a doctor to have a romantic relationship with a current or recent patient.

Ro #87,

In the United States, at least, it's illegal for a medical school to ask about or discriminate based upon an applicant's family situation. You can't ask if applicants are in a relationship, or pregnant, or plan to become pregnant. Of course, the whole, "What do you see yourself doing in ten years" question is valid, but not as a way to weed out people who want families.

As it happens, more new doctors in the US are women. From a health-policy standpoint that may be a net positive as women tend to enter more family-friendly professions, like primary care, which are greatly needed.

[90. Kathleen said the following at 12:55 PM on Dec 24:]

90

Heather, thanks for your comments, but I should clarify one thing. I don't have children (and am not sure that I want them), so the comments about making children a priority are not applicable. And, again, I've seen no command from Christ that marriage or children are in any way required, so I think we ought to be careful with any insinuations or expectations that add to what Jesus actually said.

Ro: while I agree that a government that makes an investment in a med student's education has a right to expect a certain return on that investment, your proposal as you've stated it is nonsensical and illegal. You can't discriminate against all women just because a few choose to drop out and become stay-at-homes, nor can you provide special favors for males over women.

JB, thanks for making that point about proselytization.

[91. Ro said the following at 1:23 AM on Dec 28:]

91

#To no one in specific, God weighs motives and our heart as opposed to our actions. So no, I do not think their SHOULD be gender discrimination in the work place. (I've worked in corporate, I've experienced the glass ceiling). "Test me Oh God, to see if there is anyway in me that is impure." (Paraphrasing King David as I cannot remember the exact verse). If anyone else knows it, would be great if they could reference the verse). Also, in segmenting populations for analysis, woman tend to be better at multitasking, and men are better at single focus tasks, concentrating all their energy on one task at a time. Which is why men are likely to make the greater contribution ito workload hours. But their are many exceptions to this rule from noth sides. (Gary Small's The Two Sides of Love Refers). I am not sure what the priorities or current government health policy is in your country, I can only speak from mine. Med schools here select people who are statistically most likely to achieve the overall goals of the government, overall including empowering women and health care. As with most things in life, its a delicate balance that everyone battles to get right. Otherwise, I'm weighing out of this discussion due to time constraints! I have the greatest respect for woman and mothers who dedicate their lives to their patients. I just know that mothers who do this find it very difficult and burdensome. And those that manage are great and earn wonderful incomes for the family. And yes, every country needs female doctors, they bring special skills to he job that are much needed and the interaction of male and female students and doctors means that they learn and develop skills from each other, which is a great thing. I have to weigh out due to time constraints, so will not be commenting further on this post. Enjoy the rest of the discussion!

[92. anonymous said the following at 11:45 AM on Dec 28:]

92

Ro,

The year was 1986, and I had a similar "Where do you see yourself in 10 years" type of question on my application to one of the graduate schools which I applied to. I told them that I wanted to marry and raise children. Of course, I got rejected. I've always felt like an idiot for saying that, even though it was the true answer straight from my heart at the time I answered it. Thanks for your post. I feel validated by it. It took awhile, but I did marry and now am raising a child. I don't regret anything.