Overcoming Her Sexual Past

Overcoming Her Sexual Past
by Ted Slater on 12/10/2009 at 3:41 PM

It's a common theme. The person you're dating, or married to, had a sexually promiscuous past, and you've done your best to save yourself for marriage, and now you're trying to deal with the hurt that brings up.

Sure, you forgive your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband, but the pain lingers. And the images you get from time to time of the one you love being intimate with someone else are gut-wrenching.

How do you deal with this? How can you finally move past it? How can you overcome his/her sexual past?

It took 3,000 words to sufficiently explore this issue, words of life that we're making available to you today. If you've wrestled with this, or know someone who has, I am confident that you'll find it helpful. Already this morning we've received two unsolicited e-mails from readers who were profoundly affected by this piece. This first one is from a married woman:

THANK you, thank you for your wonderful articles about overcoming a spouse's sexual past. I know this has been THE struggle of my heart since I married two years ago; and I have often felt alone, with many conflicting feelings and ideas about how to handle it.

Many people dispense advice such as "forgive and forget, already!" or other equally vague/unhelpful tips. Also, many people simply do not understand the pain of working through a spouse's sexual past, if they themselves have not been in the situation of being the virgin who married a non-virgin. It's an intense and personal experience of letting go of that exalted dream of marrying someone who waited for you, as you waited for them....

So, I just wanted to say thanks so much for unveiling the issue and for offering encouragement and a wonderful perspective on the topic. I printed off the article to put in my journal to refer to when those old resentments or feelings crop up from time to time. Many blessings and thanks.

And here's one from a man who's preparing to enter into a courtship:

Tonight I am going to ask a close friend if she would like to enter into courtship with me. I had been contemplating and praying over the last few days about overcoming her sexual past. Your article "Overcoming Her Sexual Past" was exactly what I needed right now and is one of many recent examples of God's provision. Thank you for sharing your struggle.

I'm really excited about how this 2-part article has already ministered to our readers. Let their testimonies provoke you to read it as well. And please, if you find it helpful, leave your comment below or e-mail me. I really do want to hear your story.

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Comments

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1. BDB said the following at 4:36 PM on Dec 10:

Hmmm...this article brought to mind those times when women decided to tell me about their pasts...both positive and negative...without me inquiring. I remember thinking, "Why are you telling me this?"

It also reminds me of a "discussion" in college where people were apparently trying to convince themselves that nothing was wrong with premarital sex. I didn't debate them using scriptures; I wasn't really in the mood for another round of, "Let's gang up on the Christian guy."

So I just asked one question of everyone in the circle, "How many times have you had to sit with someone and help them pick up the pieces after making a mistake?"

It got really quiet.

No one answered.

Suddenly, no one wanted to debate anymore.

THAT'S WHY.

2. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:45 PM on Dec 10:

I feel BDB and the married woman quoted in the OP have pointed to the salient message in the original article: the decade of pain! Unless we believe we can somehow start at the end of Zach Bradford's journey, that seems to be the main message in the articles.

He says various things at the end about rebuking Satan and so forth, and it's not clear for how long he's been doing this, but I would really like to see an article in five years about how things have been going. Is the pain still there after fifteen years? Twenty? One assumes that he could grow so accustomed to it that it would cease to bother him as much, but that's not the same thing as it disappearing.

All this makes me wonder how the "pursuing courtship" man could see this as an encouragement: is he (are you, if you're reading this) ready for a decade of pain? Or do you believe you can skip it, and start at the end? If so, why, when Zach Bradford was not able to do so? Is it not more likely, if it is indeed from God, that this is a warning of what is in store for you should you choose to proceed?

3. Lovegrace said the following at 5:55 PM on Dec 10:

As a virgin (never been kissed) female this article has spoken volumes to me.

I am in love with a man who not only has a sexual past, but is also divorced from a woman who left him for another man. He is a wonderful, amazing, great man of God who is ever striving towards a life devoted to Christ....and at the end of the day I still get caught up by the pain/hurt/disappointment that seems as if it will be ever mine due to his past. He is also in love with me, and presently we are in premarital counseling to determine God's will in regards to our marriage to one another.

Thank you for your words of encouragement. I commit to casting this burden onto our Lord, who does all things well!

4. Samaria said the following at 6:21 PM on Dec 10:

How many times have you had to sit with someone and help them pick up the pieces after making a mistake?

Let me be blunt here: no one has to help someone else pick up the pieces of his mistake (or hers, whatever). Unless a person is married to someone, s/he is not at all required to stay in their lives and lend a helping hand. That responsiblity lies with the one who's made the mistake, and if the helper has made the choice to help, then s/he should not blame the one who's made the mistake for making the mistake.

I've reconciled long ago that I most likely will not marry a virgin, and I am okay with that. A sexual past does not matter to me as long as his sexual present and sexual future are and will be respectable and decent. I do understand that there are some hurts that carry over due to past wrongs, but if I make the choice to carry on with that relationship, I have no right to hold it against my significant other since I voluntarily and willingly entered into the relationship.

Such is life.

5. Emily said the following at 8:07 PM on Dec 10:

This article makes me so hopeful. I've made a lot of bad choices when it comes to men. And I honestly can say that I feel no guilt or shame really because I know that Christ has forgiven me.

But, (and perhaps this is a lack of faith in God's provision, but that's a diff story) I still, all too often, fear that a "good Christian man" will never want me because of my past. It's a silly fear, really, when you consider the power of God. But it's a fear nonetheless.

Anyone who says that having a sexual past is not a big deal and doesn't hurt anyone is a liar. It does hurt. I can only pray that I will find a man willing to forgive my past and love me now.

6. Kellie said the following at 8:19 PM on Dec 10:

My husband was not a virgin when I met him, he was my first (and only) boyfriend. He was upfront about his past before we even started dating. He had repented and was living a more Godly life when I met him. I never even had the opportunity to make that sort of mistake, so I wasn't going to hold it against him. I don't make light of sexual sin. However, I also never considered it a sin against me or something I had to forgive him for, which does seem to be a common idea among Christians today.

Not exactly what you are looking for, in regards to a response to this article, but that's the way it was for me.

7. RubyGoose said the following at 8:25 PM on Dec 10:

Last week, my friend miscarried her first baby. She found out today that it had been dead for a week. I called my mom to inform her. Then, all of a sudden, it hit me to ask my mom...have you ever miscarried? She said...a long time ago...I wasn't married then. That got my mind going...wondering if it were my dad or some other man. I still don't know.

At first I asked her a little bit, then I decided to leave her alone and not try to get it out of her. Ma has told me a bit more about her sexual past before.

Was it awkward to hear? Yes, because I learned so many things about her past before...things that when she was out with the information I finally understood a lot of her actions.

It was awkward to find out those details, but at the same time...I know that Christ died while we were yet sinners.

Even if I haven't sinned in that way doesn't mean I haven't sinned.

Christ died for all...and doesn't give us what we truly deserve. Ain't I glad...because he should have gotten rid of me long ago if it were all about what I deserve.

At my church...we just studied Hosea and Gomer so that reminds me of this article.

8. Louise from Chicago said the following at 9:32 PM on Dec 10:

Yeah well I know a lot of celibate people who have made "mistakes."

We all make them; I made plenty of them during my celibate years.

But...go right away and pretend that all of you on here are "perfect."

That's just fine with me!

Louise Mcbride

9. Tacuache said the following at 10:35 PM on Dec 10:

Interesting article. What struck me though was the lack of dialogue on the beginning part of this dynamic. This individual chose to accept and overcome her past by realizing his perspective in God's greater plan was flawed. However, this occurred ex post facto. What about a priori assumptions? Realizing God's forgiveness is absolute should cover us, right? But what if we use our free will and choose not to deal with it? Is it inherently wrong of a person to evaluate a relationship before it occurs and make a decision with the person's sexual past in mind, or is this simply that person's exercise of free will? The individual in the story had to come to grips with his wife's sexual past after the marriage as he was being convicted then, but what if I was a man decided that a girl's actions reveal undesirable things to me? All her sin may be gone, she may be as snow in God's eyes, but what if I believe that these actions reveal to me aspects of her personality that may surface later on in our relationship? None of these questions really has a definite answer in my mind, and many of them have been addressed in this article. These are simply thoughts I'm having that I think and/or would like the Boundless community to discuss. If readers are wondering on my perspective..........jury is out, it would have to depend on the girl because I can't give a blanket "yea" or "nay" but given my druthers I'd "rather" not. Note "rather not" not "would not".

10. khalil said the following at 10:36 PM on Dec 10:

#8, Louise...

How about instead of being sarcastic and dismissive of people you either choose to not post or post something relevant to the discussion?

Nobody here is saying or pretending) he or she is perfect. I actually see the opposite, people struggling with imperfection and mistakes. We are all hurt and we all makes mistakes, causing hurt. If you can't add something to the conversation what about just sitting back and observing until you can? I don't mean this to be rude or curt, but a comment like yours so early on in the postings is out of place and I am not exactly sure where it came from.

11. Ted Slater said the following at 10:37 PM on Dec 10:

Louise from Chicago (#8) -- you wrote that you "know a lot of celibate people who have made 'mistakes.'"

I don't understand what you mean, but want to. If someone is "celibate," they are not sexually active at all. In this context, "mistakes" means that someone has committed some sort of sexual sin.

Could you help me understand what you're saying?

I also don't understand how you get the impression that everyone here thinks they're "perfect." I'm certainly not perfect, and don't see others here portraying themselves as perfect.

Again, I seem to be misunderstanding what you're saying. If you could help clarify, that'd be awesome. Thanks!

12. Peter said the following at 11:00 PM on Dec 10:

"That which God has called clean, let no man call unclean." I know that it's out of context, but that is one scripture that comes to mind when this issue arises.

,,,, and yet.

One of the issues WRT sin of this nature is that it takes more than just forgiveness to remove the pain. It takes healing, which is a separate miracle in itself.

As a (very imperfect) virgin, would I consider marrying someone who is not? Yes. But I would not lightly dismiss the issue. It would be a great disappointment and would have to be considered along with all the other serious issues that determine whether or not a relationship can progress.

13. Rachelle said the following at 11:17 PM on Dec 10:

I agree with Emily (#5). I grew up in a godly home. My father was a pastor of a baptist church. When I was 13, I went through True Love Waits and received a promise ring from my Dad (family). I didn't start dating until I was 23 and that's when I strayed. In the last 6 years, I've made a lot of bad choices regarding the men I dated. The last one ended because of my impure past, and that reason hurts like none other.

Now, almost a year later, my fear has grown like Emily's. My family has no idea about my past and it has been made very clear that I would be disowned if they knew. I know God has a plan, but sometimes I quietly hope that the man God has for me isn't a virgin, too. (How horrible is it for me to wish that on someone.)

This article gives such hope for me that someday God may bring me a man that gives an abundance of forgiveness and grace.

14. BDB said the following at 12:02 AM on Dec 11:

#13 wrote:

>>This article gives such hope for me that someday God may bring me a man that gives an abundance of forgiveness and grace.<<

For those unfamiliar with it, Elisabeth Elliot's book Quest for Love has a couple of good chapters on extending grace in these situations.

15. Maria said the following at 12:07 AM on Dec 11:

This was a great article and gave me a lot to think about. See,I do not have a sexual past, not even a tiny one. At 33 I am a virgin in every sense - I have not even been kissed. I have always hoped and expected to marry a virgin like myself - it would certainly be a lot easier and I have my parents model of being each others firsts and only partners and not till after marriage.

However, well meaning friends (some of them Christians) tell me that at my age there is no way I will meet a guy who is age appropriate, Christian, educated and other wise successful and sensible who will also be a virgin and that I need to adjust my expectations and hopes. That meeting a Christian guy is hard enough much less adding that restriction to it.

I sense they are right, and I am aware that we are all sinners and this is a fallen and broken world. I am not perfect, I too am a sinner but there is something different sexual sin that makes it harder to accept. How do you not think about them doing those things with other people, especially if there were multiple people? How do you join yourself to someone knowing you are also joining with all the others they once joined to?

After reading this I pray for the grace to handle it should God bring someone who has been sexually active prior to marriage into my life as my spouse. But I know it will not be easy.

16. endlessnights said the following at 12:35 AM on Dec 11:

Wow...definetely keeping hold of this article...

@13 Rachelle...I can feel for you, I really do, I was given a chastity necklace by mum only to loose my v plates (virginity) a couple of years later...I think it's best if your parents know, but thats just my view..

Right..on to the article...I have long (since coming back to God and church) known that one day I am going to have to tell a serious girlfriend or my fiancee that I have had sex before, and ask for their forgiveness, this scares the CRAP out of me, because my reasons for having pre-marital relations were far from justified and just fully selfish and self-motivated - sure I can could say they were selfish on both sides, but that doesn't excuse the fact that I knew better, that I was the man and that I let things get out of hand - this article will definitely be a helping hand, alongside my understanding that I have sinned against God as well as my spouse, but it also gives me hope that my future wife will be gracious and forgiving.

17. BI said the following at 2:48 AM on Dec 11:

I like this article. When it comes to relationships, we tend to forget about God, and focus on what will make us happy as if we can know better than God what is actually in the heart of the other person and what this person will turn out to be in the long term, i.e. how faithful s/he will be after 10 years, 20 years, etc. and how s/he would treat us then as supposed to now, and how s/he would match our dreams, expectations, ambitions, etc. In these circumstances, we usually tend to trust our own feelings and momentary infatuation than our Maker who knows the heart and soul of every person and who alone can provide the one who is perfect for us – note, I say perfect for us, not the perfect person as no one is perfect in this life.

When we intentionally hurt others, this will definitely come to hurt us one day. We may not see it now, but it will surely come to hurt us – the same way past sin comes to haunt us even though it is only in our past. But, when we take on a selfish perspective and think only what will make us happy now, and ignore God and the other person’s perspective, we move away from love as love is about doing what is best for the other person and sometimes sacrificing our own selfishness and happiness for his/her sake. However, love comes from the heart and not by coercion or by persuasion. And certainly, love without God is no love at all, just a momentary infatuation that will soon or later fade away in the long run. One simply never knows what the other person will do whimsically when God is not there – if they will not suddenly fall in love with someone else and leave them. Because of this, people choose not to open themselves up and be vulnerable, i.e. not to love, or they choose to settle for something less – companionship without love that can hurt them deeply.

Well, as I said if God is not there in a relationship and He does not unite two people, our efforts to pursue happiness on our own will be in vain. In other words, companionship offers sex but no love that will expose us and make us hurt if the other person suddenly leaves or sins against us, but companionship cannot also offer us the God intended fulfilling and most satisfying spiritual love intended only for us. Of course, the question is do we trust God enough that He can do this for us and choose the way of love?

18. Trevor Dolby said the following at 4:44 AM on Dec 11:

I think Rachelle (13) has incidentally pointed to a possible cause of these situations: waiting a long time for marriage. This is not to blame her, or anyone in particular, for not getting married younger, because this is a wider, cultural problem, but waiting ten or fifteen years and being celibate the whole time is _really_ difficult for most girls.

The non-Christian world has noticed this :) and believes the whole idea is unrealistic; they may well be right. The most obvious Christian solution is to get married younger (as in ages past), but this immediately runs up against a vast array of cultural prejudice against girls getting married at relatively young ages. This might be an area where the Church has to take the lead, despite the likely cultural flak.

19. Trevor Dolby said the following at 4:45 AM on Dec 11:

Samaria (4), Kellie (6): It's certainly true that the Bible has much more to say about immoral women than it does about immoral men: for example, the death penalty for pre-marital immorality in Deuteronomy applies to women, and not to men.

Creation also illustrates this (to borrow an argument from St. Paul :) ), and creation is often a hint from God about things being important. You have much less reason to fear negative consequences than did Zach Bradford!

20. Daniel said the following at 6:58 AM on Dec 11:

It was a good article... the kind we need to see more of. Personally a lot of the articles on here make me wonder... "why are they talking about this... how is this important?" This however is content that should be touched on more.

It is kind of funny, I read this yesterday and then that night I heard a Taylor Swift song on my radio I never heard before. I caught about the end of it where she mentions "Cause when your fifteen and someone tells you they love you, you're going to believe them." I'm not young or old, but maybe because I've had one to many close people to me be hurt this way, but that part rips you up inside.

I can guarantee when I have children and when my boy comes of age, Im going to let him know the horrible things I did, and while it all seems harmless and status quo in the beginning... all it did in the long wrong was made it harder on the one you loved the most and decided to spend the rest of your life with.

21. anoynamous said the following at 7:34 AM on Dec 11:

The man I am currently dating has shared with me that he is not a virgin, I don't know a lot of details except that it happened almost 2 years ago and there is clear evidence of remorse, repentance and trust in God that he has been forgiven. As I said, this was a brief conversation and I don't know many details at all, he told me this before he asked me to be his girlfriend. We talked about it and I told him it didn't make me not want to pursue a relationship with him and that I know God has forgiven him and I forgive him as well. I have never engaged in any sexual activity or sexual intercourse although I certainly am not free of sexual sin/lust. We are talking about marriage and I have to say I haven't really struggled with his past yet (I've thought of it a little but it hasn't significantly bothered me), but I am also cautious that Satan may try to use it to cause problems in the future. Thank you for this article, I know it can be a tremendous resource for me.

Are there any Boundless articles that address how much we should be talking about our sexual history? I know great detail is not warranted, but I get confused about exactly what I should know. I feel that knowing less is probably good - but this is my first relationship and I'm unsure what I should know or be asking about his past relationships.

22. Tony said the following at 7:37 AM on Dec 11:

I liked most of the article.

The only part that kind of irritated me was the line "Yet I was content to take pride in sins I had avoided only because of lack of opportunity."

I am a 23 year old man who has never had sex. I've had more than enough chances of opportunity, but I made conscious decisions to not.

There is a self discipline that comes from being a Christian that God builds in you, especially when you're obedient. I seem to always run into Christians that act like if any sexual situation comes around they are helpless against it.

It's true that half of the battle is just not putting yourself in situations(such as parties), but the situation will eventually arise, and how you handle it determines a lot about your character.

23. James - UK said the following at 7:42 AM on Dec 11:

It is quite possible that this is just a cultural phenomenon of the American church, as for my own part this is never an issue that i have come across within my own Christian circles here in the UK. And yet, I do find myself intensely uneasy with some of the sentiments being expressed here. What worries me most is this creeping sense of entitlement that says, in effect, “I kept myself pure so I deserve someone who did the same”.

What it reminded me of is the stance of the elder brother from the tale of the prodigal son. Faced with his father’s acceptance of his previously wayward younger brother, the other son walks out of his father’s presence and refuses to share in his joy that though once lost his brother is now found. Remember the words he uses “All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

Let’s paraphrase that shall we. “All these years, I’ve obeyed your commands. I never had sex, never behaved inappropriately, never even kissed anyone and yet when you bring me a spouse it’s some sinner who’s already been with half a dozen others? It’s not fair!”

It’s not fair. I think that is what it really boils down to. Raised in the faith, encouraged to keep all the commandments, having obeyed the laws, some feel that they deserve more. Forgive me, but you don’t. To be brutal, you deserve even less than you think. Sin is primarily committed against God. He is the one who justifies and lets the captive go free. It has nothing to do with you.

If he has passed over their sins, and you wish to be a part of his Kingdom, you must too. I don’t care how difficult you may find it, you forgive. Let go of your sense of virginal entitlement. He/She is not yours, they’re God’s! They belong to Him and if he is pleased to call them his own, who are you to disagree? Stop reminding them of who they – that’s gone. Instead praise your Father in heaven for who they are now. Be like Paul and say “ For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers”

May God be with you all.

24. E.M. said the following at 7:43 AM on Dec 11:

Frankly, I have come to realize that extended singleness means sexual compromise despite a desire to follow and be obedient. I am not super human and neither is anyone else.

Apparently a majority of single Christian men view pornography, which is twisted and fake. I would rather have a man sin with a real woman than live on pornography all of his single years.

I plan to marry a sinner. Hopefully he realizes he will marry one as well and doesn't put himself on a pedestal of righteousness. Whether or not it is sexual, each person's sin will eventually affect someone else.

If Jesus thought my sin and my partner's sin was worthy of His sacrifice and forgiveness, then my partner is worthy of mine as well.
I Corinthians 13

25. em said the following at 8:22 AM on Dec 11:

I appreciated the article.

I haven't yet been particularly bothered that my fiancee isn't a virgin. I am (but I'm certainly not without sin in that area).

I wonder now if I will deal with years of pain like the author. I haven't presumed that I would marry a virgin for quite some years now and felt prepared by the Lord to extend grace in that area.

There are plenty of other non-sexual past issues that I bring to our relationship that he has to deal with - I don't really feel like we are out of balance because we both bring baggage into the marriage in different ways. We've both been redeemed and are in the process of seeing the Lord work out his redemption in our lives and we both daily need the Lord's grace and forgiveness still.

26. Dante said the following at 8:34 AM on Dec 11:

Truthfully, I have a tough time vibing with the gist of this post. It just seems so out of touch with reality, out of touch with what forgiveness is really about. I get the feeling that many people's worlds are collapsing at the notion that their spouse may not be a virgin. We all value our sexuality a lot, especially if we're a virgin. But we make a huge mistake when we pretend to be wronged by a person who hasn't met us yet.

Here's an excerpt that really stood out to me: "I had forgiven her years ago when, even before we got engaged, we had discussed her past and she had sought my forgiveness for giving away what she should have held on to. I forgave her then. I knew that neither of us could be free from that sin if forgiveness was not offered and received."

This woman did the right thing. She was upfront. However, I struggle to see how she wronged her soon-to-be spouse. Her sin was against God. But somewhere in his mind (and in many Christians I suppose) is the belief that he deserved someone without baggage, or at least less baggage than he had himself. It's as if many of us are riding the high horse of delicate sensibilities and pious perfection.

I'm bothered by the feigned hurt here--and I say "feigned" because I hope that many of the "offended" aren't serious! I hope that we as believers wouldn't place too much emphasis on sexual brokeness and our partner's past. Because if we do, we prove our ignorance and indifference to the many who have been sexually abused or raped, people who simply looked for God in the wrong places--which may have lead to their subsequent conversion, which God may have used to make them who they are today--the person you fell in love with.

I battle against the fairytale that we should have standards so high that we can look down upon those who have lived life in trenches, those who have fallen off the path but have now since corrected. When I was immature in my thinking, I used to want a virgin, someone like me. But now I recognize how selfish my heart prayers and dreams were: "God, send me someone with enough moral fiber to wait on sex. Someone you haven't had to bring out of abuse, or through sexual brokeness, 'Cause I never liked that Hosea and Gomer story. Do this for me because I have earned it! I have been faithful to you, so I deserve to meet women who are closer to my perfection."

I would have never spoken those words, but my heart believed them all.

The best advice I could give (and it was in the article) is for us to get over ourselves and recognize that we, perhaps, weren't even wronged AT ALL, and if we were, it cannot be compared to God's offense. YET, God forgives and restores.

The pain you may be feeling if your spouse doesn't match your piety is the pain of a fairytale dying, and that's good because it is unhealthy and unbiblical. We shouldn't want perfection; we shouldn't expect it. What we should want is for God to work through the sinfulness of all of us and in spite of the waywardness of all of us to produce character, faithfulness, and godliness in this broken world full of broken people.

We gotta right our expectations and align them with the Bible.

27. Keb said the following at 8:49 AM on Dec 11:

I'm a virgin at 29, and I seriously doubt that I'm going to wind up with another virgin. It would be wonderful, of course--but the statistics point to that being nearly impossible. By my age, most Americans have had sex--either because they are already married, or because they aren't waiting. And by most, the statistics point to something like 98% of people.

It's a very lonely feeling to be in that 2%, especially when I'd rather be married anyway.

And no, I'm not a perfect girl--I certainly have my share of sexual sin. I'm a virgin and I'm waiting for my husband, but it isn't easy. Sometimes I wonder if he'll be hurt by what I have done, and sometimes I wonder how I'll feel about his (almost certainly non-virginal) sexual past. As long as he's true to me when we're together, I think I can accept his past. If I want to be with anyone (and I do), I think I will have to.

28. Emily said the following at 9:15 AM on Dec 11:

#8, Louise - I know people have already responded to you, but I wanted to say something also. I don't see what you are seeing in this article. Most of the comments on here are people confessing past sexual sin.

Yes, we've all made mistakes! None of us are pretending to be perfect! On the contrary.

Your comment was cutting. Especially for those of us who had already admitted to past sin.

In fact, I think this whole article is the opposite of what you implied. The entire point of this article is that we're human - we make mistakes! We need to forgive and ask for forgiveness.

I hope that helps. :)

29. Kay said the following at 9:51 AM on Dec 11:

#23, James-I liked your response and you are right on target with the whole "not fair" feelings. I have always related much more to the older brother in the prodigal son story and that has been a big part of my conversations with God in the past. But what they don't teach you growing up in church and going through True Love Waits is that saving yourself is no guarantee and God didn't even promise me a husband, much less one who is a virgin on our wedding night.

I am a 34 year old virgin but let go of the assumption that I would marry someone with no sexual past a while ago. I haven't dated one of those since college. My struggle now is a little different since I am currently being pursued by a very Godly guy who happens to be divorced with a daughter. His wife had an affair and left him over 4 years ago so he had no say in the divorce and has done a lot of work to heal from it so that is not my concern-it is more about the "not fair" stuff again. If I end up walking down the aisle towards someone I want to be the first person he has experienced that with. If we have kids I want to be the only woman he has been in the delivery room with. And I have to fight against the feelings that I "deserve" that. It's hard. This guy has already had those things with someone else. I am really praying through a lot of this and trying to be open to God having a different picture than I do.

30. Mark said the following at 9:53 AM on Dec 11:

Of course, one question I have is for those of us who are still single and not dating anyone. As a guy who is a virgin, if I had to choose between two girls, everything else equal, I would take the one who was still a virgin over the one who was not. Of course, in real life, all other things are not equal, and then I would have to heavily see what the circumstances are. For some girls, it is so far back in her past that it's not even worth discussing, while for others it's so recent that pursuing a relationship would be stupid. Each case will differ. But I do not feel that it is wrong to say no to dating someone due to their sexual history. Does God forgive everyone? Yes. But that does not mean we MUST say yes to dating them. Being friends and encouragers, yes. Dating them, no.

31. RLynn said the following at 9:59 AM on Dec 11:

Intersting article. I agree that sexual sin is in a "different" category because marriage is a mirror of Jesus' relationship to the Church and when sexual sin is committed, it violates and distorts that picture that God has painted for us. On the other hand, it was part of his wife's PAST and thank you, Jesus, when we truly repent, we are forgiven. Why, then, the years of struggle in having to deal with her PAST? Why the elevation of sexual sin over other sins we commit on a daily basis? (Greed, envy, exploitation of the poor--I could go on). Move on, brother, be thankful that God has brought a wonderful woman into your life and remember that we all marry SINNERS.

32. Tacuache said the following at 10:05 AM on Dec 11:

A lot of what people have been talking about is sort of a dismissal of any sanctimonious thought concerning how you approach a potential wife/husband's previous sexual sin. This is fine and dandy itself, but this is in another realm removed from day-to-day realities. Obviously we are all sinners and we should approach each other as such so that we can frame properly our perspective. However, sin has consequences that can lead to real world difficulties.

What if the sexual past of the person I'm in a relationship with has psychological consequences? On here it's been termed "baggage", but what if real psychological disease exists like depression or mentally harmful behavior? Will the subsequent sex life of an individual have irreparable harm because of psychological harm? Frankly, what about disease and issues of fertility? Obviously these can be tested for, but the point remains. I would suggest that there are actual real world consequences to sin in general, and sexual sin is no different. This is something that should be seriously considered and dealt with when approaching this issue. I believe that if a relationship and/or marriage fails because of such issues that it can do more harm that if it had never began in the first place because of a choice not to get into the relationship. Consequences are consequences regardless, and should not be dismissed lightly.

These are things, of course, that can and should be dealt with before any real relationship, but I wanted to bring the perspective down to earth (so to speak) a bit more and show a different facet of the issue.

33. Leah said the following at 10:30 AM on Dec 11:

I really related to this article. I married a man three years ago. I was a virgin, he was not. He was up front with this early in our relationship and I knew that his pre-christian years were not a reflection of the man that he was when we were dating, we talked, I forgave him and knew God did too. I thought that it was all done with.

Then we got married. What I hadn't realized is that many of the consequences of that sin would be showing up in our marriage. I definitely had that "it's not fair" attitude which was wrong of me and God convicted me of that pride and sin. But to say that my husband didn't sin against me and didn't hurt me just because he didn't know me at the time is also wrong. His past did impact our marriage. But through time and lots and lots of prayer and conversation (me with him and me with God), we have been able to move past that because God is a restorer. Will Satan try to bring it up again and cause pain our marriage? Yes, I'm sure he will and whether we we have been married for 5 years or 10 years, Satn he will see that as a weak spot and try to attack it. But if it wasn't that issue, he would try and attack us through some other issue. You see, #2, I don't believe that the pain and guilt we struggled with was from God, God would not desire strife in a married couples life. He can and does choose to produce good from the struggles though. Right now I am carrying the baby of the man I married and love dearly. He is an amazing Christian man and I can't imagine anyone else I would want to father and pastor my children and I don't think our marriage would be as strong as it is now had we not deal with that. I wouldn't give up what we have just to avoid hurt and pain and struggle.

34. James - UK said the following at 10:47 AM on Dec 11:

#30,Mark - As a similarly single man in his early twenties, i have to admit that it wouldn't even cross my mind. Were i to look to date, as at the moment i'm very contented serving the Lord as I am, the criteria would be simply "Does she love and serve the Lord her God, could I be a good husband to her and father to her children and is she beautiful in my eyes". That second part is actually worth thinking about. Instead of thinking "Which of these would i prefer", might i suggest you consider " Which of these women is God calling me to serve"?

You also make the point that you do not consider it to be wrong to say no to someone due to their sexual history. Can you understand how damaging that could be? Someone who has come to terms with their sin, admitted their guilt before God is then being told "Sorry, but, though i like you, you're spoilt goods".Don't you see how that could wreck their sense of self-worth? You make them sullied and unclean all over again, even though Christ himself has made them white as snow.That's not how this is supposed to work

35. Tiffany said the following at 11:23 AM on Dec 11:

Thanks James for putting into words the uneasy I was feeling with this article: entitlement. So sad that we're so removed from our own dependence on grace that we could ever feel that we're entitled to anything!!

36. BI said the following at 11:32 AM on Dec 11:

Leah, what a great post! It really teaches a lot about the meaning of love. I certainly do wish to be loved some day in this way. And I think guys who like me have not been involved sexually with other people, should focus more on finding and building true and everlasting love in a godly marriage than boasting about their non-sexual past. After all, the point of not having premarital sexual encounters is to wait until you find that true and everlasting love.

37. Brittany said the following at 12:21 PM on Dec 11:

This article was such a blessing to me. Thank you!!!

When I was younger I used to think about what I wanted in a mate. Will he be charming? Funny? Good-looking? Something that was brought up in an article that I read was how 'me'-focused that line of reasoning is. Shouldn't I be more focused on what kind of mate/mother/partner I will be to someone someday?

When we begin letting go of that 'we' and start focusing on how we can serve, we better reflect Christ and are more able to submit to God humbly. That line of thinking revolutionized my dating life. Before, I was out for what I could get out of relationships. Now I am focused on preparing my heart for the relationship that God calls me to, baggage and all.

I also believe that it's a conscious thing to 'dwell' on someone's past. Will you think about it? Yes. Does Satan bombard you with images of their 'past'? I don't believe that Satan is omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscient so no. Some sins are the result of living in a fallen world. Do I have a good or bad attitude because Satan put a bug in my ear? That relinquishes all responsibility...I don't believe that's the case. Pulling up 'images' of a loved-ones past is a choice, not something that is out of our control. Control your thoughts and guards your hearts...and have some grace. :)

38. Peter said the following at 1:05 PM on Dec 11:

As another never-been-kissed virgin, I am distressed by some of the attitudes that I am seeing here.

To return to the biblical example that Zach used - that of David and Bathsheba - it must be remembered that there were CONSEQUENCES. Even though David was forgiven, his child died, and God expressly links David's adultery with the violence and rebellion of his sons and descendants.

Can we stop throwing guilt trips and accusations of an entitlement mentality at those of us who value sexual integrity as something that God loves, and who wish to be sufficiently clear-eyed about marriage to consider ALL of the baggage and issues that a potential partner brings to the table. NOT excluding those as important to a marriage as sexual history.

That isn't entitlement, that's wisdom.

Valuing sexual integrity and faithfulness (and remaining a virgin before marriage is faithfulness to the person that you've not yet met, and faith in God that such a person exists) is nothing less than valuing what God loves. The desire to pursue what God loves is one of the things that has kept me faithful for 25 years of adult life.

James (#34)
Self-worth comes from our relationship with God, not acceptance by one of millions of single males. Someone whose self-worth is dependent on my acceptance or rejection does not have an emotional stability or level of faith that would make me wish to pursue the relationship. Consider that before lecturing us on the way that life in Christ is supposed to work. Please.

Peter.

39. Greg said the following at 1:09 PM on Dec 11:

#23, James in UK - I know we are not entitled to or promised a (virgin) spouse. But the decision whom to marry is entirely up to us (otherwise we wouldn't have free will). If I felt unable to marry and love someone as she is, I'd move on.

#30, Mark, #27, Keb - I feel your pain (am in my late twenties). As for the statistics, I suspect satan may use them to make us believe that purity is impossible.

40. Peter said the following at 1:14 PM on Dec 11:

Tiffany (#35)
Don't you feel uneasy at the idea implied here that we are entitled (there's that word again) to marry anyone , regardless of how sinful our past is, and that our baggae then becomes their problem? Entitlement cuts both ways.

BI (#36)
I see less "boasting" and more stereotyping of virgins. Love is not something that you just find, but something that you build. Being faithful to someone before you've met and married them is a genuine expression of that love.

Peter

41. BI said the following at 1:39 PM on Dec 11:

Peter, 40

Yes, I agree. And yet, my point is that love overcomes all obstacles and sometimes love means sacrificing for those who seemingly do not deserve our love – like Jesus did on the cross for us, the undeserving sinners.

42. Mark said the following at 2:05 PM on Dec 11:

#34, James...no, I would never SAY that to a girl by any means. That being said, I can still decide in my own mind whether or not I would want to pursue her. That's part of the free will that we have.

Now, if she is so incredible and the sexual past so distant that it is not much of a factor anymore because God is so powerful in her life, then I would definitely consider it, and have already in the past. I'm just saying that we need not feel like we MUST date someone with a sexual past. If we're married to said person, that's a different story.

43. Cat said the following at 2:10 PM on Dec 11:

I have a sexually impure past. I was pressured into going farther then I wanted to go with a guy. I don't say that to absolve myself of blame, but more to state the facts. I really, genuinely thought he was going to marry me. I stated feeling uncomfortable with what was going on later but he told me that he couldn't control his desire for me. I was young and stupid and I was afraid he would leave me if we stopped. As it turns out it didn't matter at all. I left him after the relationship took an emotionally abusive turn.

While I consider what we did a sin I also...well...what happened between us is part of what made me who I am. The way I dealt with that being in my past changed me. I believe I became a better, stronger person through the way I dealt with that sin. Doubtless, when I do meet my husband part of what he loves about me will be the strength of character and steadfast trust in the Lord I learned as I walked through a break-up after sexual impurity.

So...my feelings are mixed. Part of me wants to say I've saved everything till marriage. Part of me knows that the person I am today is worth all of the pain I walked through.

I revealed a little of that past to my boyfriend as I was praying and making peace with the situation. He had asked to know what was bugging me. When I told him he was surprisingly accepting. He gave me a hug and told me that God wasn't ashamed of me and neither was he. And while he understood how guilty he felt, he told me that my past wasn't an issue to him. What he cares about is who I am today, the person he decided to date before knowing any of that.

Moreover, God has used my sexual brokenness to minister to other girls coming out of similar relationships. I can really understand what they're going through. There's an intense feeling of shame and violation that comes after a relationship like that. Its something only God can take away.

I don't view my brokenness as a good or bad thing. I view it as something that God uses in me. What the devil meant for evil God has turned for good. It's just a part of me I can't change. I'm pretty up front about it and I figure...if some guy can't accept that part of me, well, he needs to go find another girl.

44. Zusanne said the following at 2:33 PM on Dec 11:

Samaria (#4) said, "I've reconciled long ago that I most likely will not marry a virgin, and I am okay with that. A sexual past does not matter to me as long as his sexual present and sexual future are and will be respectable and decent. I do understand that there are some hurts that carry over due to past wrongs, but if I make the choice to carry on with that relationship, I have no right to hold it against my significant other since I voluntarily and willingly entered into the relationship."

I agree.

Especially the "I have no right to hold it against my signficant other" part. If it's been confessed, repented, and his life has been changed, I'm willing to accept the fact that he's been forgiven by God. I'm not naive; I appreciated Leah's comments (#33).

45. Zusanne said the following at 2:34 PM on Dec 11:

I did have a friend who turned down a man because he had made poor choices in his mid-teen years (he was in his late twenties at that point). She told me that God would honor her purity with her husband's purity. That sounded so smug and prideful to me.

46. jamie said the following at 2:38 PM on Dec 11:

The problem is that it's rarely a logical decision to not feel affected by sins like these.

I'm in a similiar situation - engaged to man who isn't a virgin. He told me early on in the relationship and I knew it wasn't a deal breaker (ie: it wasn't a reason to break up with him). I did ask serious questions - Did he regret it (I don't want him to be crushed by it - unable to move forward, but I need to know that he repented of it). I didn't ask many details - I didn't want to know # of times, length of the relationship or intimate details. I didn't need that rattling around in my head.

In my mind, I recognized that it was a sin against God - it was God's law that he violated. He didn't actively choose some other woman over me. He did give away something that I guess should've been mine (as his wife) and there are impacts to that. But funnily enough, I never saw it as a sin against me that I needed to forgive him for.

Now that we're engaged though, it's starting to bother me a little bit more. Something that I definitely have to think through when it does bother me. I have to remember all the things the article stated. He's repented, he's remorseful, I knew he wasn't a perfect sinless person, he's a changed man, our relationship is pure, he didn't marry that woman - he's marrying me.

Basically: we can apply all kinds of logic to this situation, even theological arguments. But sometimes, it still bothers you. You have to act on the things that are true (he/she is forgiven, you just sin differently than he/she does). Eventually, over time, the consequences of sin feel less and less hurtful as long as you actively fight against it. But it takes time and effort. It's way okay to say that you're upset by this particular issue.

47. BDB said the following at 2:59 PM on Dec 11:

The difficulty of forgiving someone despite their repentance is a very old one, dealth with many places in the Bible.

Read through Jonah 4 for example. The point of the book of Jonah is that Jonah wanted God to punish Ninevah for their sin. Jonah got angry when they repented and God forgave them. But God was pretty gentle in trying to persuade Jonah that forgiveness was the better path.

While forgiving others is difficult, also keep in mind that those who are forgiven much may be much more grateful for that forgiveness. That is the message of Luke 7:36-50.

On a practical level, for those with a past, should you get involved with someone who doesn't have a past, please keep in mind that they may treat you differently than you've been treated in the past. Don't confuse lack of aggressiveness to be more physical as lack of interest. That's self-control you're witnessing. Christians who avoid sin may be following boundaries such as the "hands off and clothes on" rule suggested by Elisabet Elliot. Don't assume that a man following that rule must not be interested in you specifically.

48. Lis said the following at 3:12 PM on Dec 11:

26. #26 Dante
“It's as if many of us are riding the high horse of delicate sensibilities and pious perfection.
I'm bothered by the feigned hurt here--and I say "feigned" because I hope that many of the "offended" aren't serious! I hope that we as believers wouldn't place too much emphasis on sexual brokeness and our partner's past. Because if we do, we prove our ignorance and indifference to the many who have been sexually abused or raped, people who simply looked for God in the wrong places--which may have lead to their subsequent conversion, which God may have used to make them who they are today--the person you fell in love with.
I battle against the fairytale that we should have standards so high that we can look down upon those who have lived life in trenches, those who have fallen off the path but have now since corrected. When I was immature in my thinking, I used to want a virgin, someone like me. But now I recognize how selfish my heart prayers and dreams were: "God, send me someone with enough moral fiber to wait on sex. Someone you haven't had to bring out of abuse, or through sexual brokeness, 'Cause I never liked that Hosea and Gomer story. Do this for me because I have earned it! I have been faithful to you, so I deserve to meet women who are closer to my perfection."
I would have never spoken those words, but my heart believed them all.
The best advice I could give (and it was in the article) is for us to get over ourselves and recognize that we, perhaps, weren't even wronged AT ALL, and if we were, it cannot be compared to God's offense. YET, God forgives and restores.”

Thank you!! With me, the issue is not so much about worrying that a guy will forgive me -I have struggled sexually, but nothing beyond passionate kissing- but I was sexually abused several years ago, and for two years after that was suicidal (I never tried to kill myself, but wanted to). I am glad for the point that you brought up about dealing with emotional baggage of another person.

I have struggled, not with blaming myself for what happened, but worrying that the way men would see me would be like a beat up, ragged old doll, sitting on a shelf next to all these brand new, beautiful never been used dolls, and seeing everyone go straight for them while ignoring me. After all, why would a guy want to deal with heart-wrenching emotional problems I have, my fear of sex, and how deeply all those wounds will affect my ability to have sex with my husband for the rest of our lives, when a guy could have someone with a happy, squeaky clean past with no serious issues to deal with?

But in spite of it all, I know the person God has planned for me will be a man I can trust to handle what I have been through with a very selfless, sensitive and caring heart, never thinking. “God, why did you have to stick me with someone with so many problems?” If my future husband really loves me, he would never be so selfish.

People don’t realize how hurtful it is seeing so many people perched upon their high horses expecting near-perfection in a very imperfect world, whether it be a person’s own choices that carry consequences, or trauma they suffered because someone else.

49. Lis said the following at 3:25 PM on Dec 11:

Peter #38
"Can we stop throwing guilt trips and accusations of an entitlement mentality at those of us who value sexual integrity as something that God loves, and who wish to be sufficiently clear-eyed about marriage to consider ALL of the baggage and issues that a potential partner brings to the table. NOT excluding those as important to a marriage as sexual history.

That isn't entitlement, that's wisdom.

yes there are consequences of people's sin to deal with, but there is a huge difference between considering a person's integrity NOW as opposed to the past. wisdom is taking into consideration how a person's relationship with god is in the PRESENT and how they are currently growing in christ. judgement and unforgiveness is dwelling on who they USED to be.

50. Lis said the following at 3:33 PM on Dec 11:

James #34
"You also make the point that you do not consider it to be wrong to say no to someone due to their sexual history. Can you understand how damaging that could be? Someone who has come to terms with their sin, admitted their guilt before God is then being told "Sorry, but, though i like you, you're spoilt goods".Don't you see how that could wreck their sense of self-worth? You make them sullied and unclean all over again, even though Christ himself has made them white as snow.That's not how this is supposed to work"

AMEN!!

51. Eric said the following at 3:48 PM on Dec 11:

As the father of a 17-year-old son with lots of "girl drama," I have followed this discussion with interest. I am especially intrigued, and honestly a little bit horrified, at characterizing the expectation of purity in a mate as a sense of entitlement.

Most of us can agree, I think, that there are consequences to sin in this world. Even though God has forgiven us, people have still been hurt. Is it not then reasonable to expect positive consequences for purity? You would certainly be justified, for example, in expecting to stay out of jail if you refrained from murder or theft. To be free of venereal disease is, I think, a perfectly reasonable thing to expect as a reward for keeping yourself pure. Can you extend that expectation to a having pure spouse as well? I'm not sure, but keeping yourself pure has got to at least improve your odds. You tell me.

52. girl who has never been kissed said the following at 5:03 PM on Dec 11:

It does still happen today in America that a virgin will marry a virgin. I know couples where both the bride and the groom's first kiss was during the wedding ceremony. I expect to be one of these, since I am not married yet but heading in that direction with a man who is in his late twenties and has never been kissed. I am early-to-mid twenties.

Now, even that does not rule out wondering about the past! This man had one previous girlfriend, someone he thought about marrying about seven years ago, long before he ever met me (only about three years ago). Even though they never even kissed, sometimes I wonder how I compare to her. Even with no sin involved, I sometimes feel a little sad that there was that other girl in his life. I do know that they did hug, though, and I have not hugged him yet (I know that is seen as ridiculously extreme, maybe even here, but I'm trying to stay as far from "the line" as possible). I guess I can't really complain, can I? But I can see how someone, especially a woman, might regret a spouse's past without blaming him at all.

Oh, and I've always been a big Elisabeth Elliot fan. I even wrote her a letter once and got an answer. :)

I guess I just want to say that you can't assume that you either will or will not marry a virgin. It's probably good for virgins to ask themselves how they would handle it if they were to marry someone who was not a virgin, but that does not mean that they should not be attracted by another virgin's lack of "a past." God writes all sorts of love stories, you know, Hosea's and Isaac's both (Personally, I've always wanted a Jacob).

53. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:00 PM on Dec 11:

I would encourage those of you men who feel uneasy about marrying unchaste women to _not_ try to squash your feelings, or try to get over them, or feel guilty about them, but rather to accept them. There's plenty of reason to believe those feelings are normal and natural for men, and you do a woman no favours by marrying her when deep down your heart is screaming in pain! She _will_ know it at some level - you can't hide it in a marriage. Pray, and see if God gives you peace about it, but accept that He may not and that if He doesn't then you must find someone you feel comfortable marrying without squashing your feelings.

54. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:03 PM on Dec 11:

James - UK (23): It's not widely discussed here in Britain, despite it turning up in the Bible and the issue being forced by recent discussions of "honour killings" and so forth.

However, it's not at all clear that any sense of "virginal entitlement" is at work here; more like a sense that God intended marriage to work a certain way, and that deviation from that path results in consequences. Those consequences _do_ affect you, and it's not simply "nothing to do with you" if you are or marry such a person. The entire article itself is about what those consequences have been for one man! It's not a question of being unforgiving, either - there's no promise in the Bible that your feelings will simply vanish just because you've forgiven someone.

And (34): I don't think any man is _required_ to make a choice to marry someone simply to avoid damaging her self-worth! In fact, it's likely to be more damaging to marry someone for that reason. There is nothing in the Bible that obliges a man to marry an immoral woman (short of a direct command as to Hosea), and many parts of the Bible that speak against it.

55. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:03 PM on Dec 11:

Dante (26): The pain is of God's plan for the best dying, not some fairy-tale ending dreamed up by humans. It's easy to lose sight of the original plan here, in the hurry to focus on forgiveness: the consequences of sin are real, and don't go away simply because forgiveness has happened. It is valid to ask "what are those consequences, and am I called by God to face them?", as not everyone is called to this.

56. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:04 PM on Dec 11:

Leah (33): May I refer you to comment 19? :) Your case would not be treated the same way in the Bible as that of the article writer. In fact, that's a sort-of common thread in these comments: women have less trouble than men do with this issue. Creation would indicate that this should be so, of course . . .

E.M. (24): You make a very brave statement: "I would rather have a man sin with a real woman than live on pornography all of his single years." I happen to think your attitude is quite right, in that at least the man has had to actively approach a real woman in the first case, while the second could simply be a life of cowardice.

57. Emily said the following at 6:53 PM on Dec 11:

#38, Peter -

I see what you are saying. And I get it. Sexual purity IS important - no one is denying it. And you should take it into serious consideration, along with a million other things, when you are marrying someone.

I would, however, like to know what you would do in the case that virginity was lost against a woman's will. I was molested at the age of 3 (yes, I was young, unfortunately, I remember it.)

Take that for instance, or perhaps rape (something else I have also encountered in my teenage years). I have accepted Jesus and moved on with my life, as I imagine many women in my position have. I know that he has forgiven me, but I also know that my future husband will have to deal with my past just as much (or perhaps more, since I've had more time with it) as I have.

I am not trying to condemn you in any way, nor make your position any less valid. I respect and applaud your decision to remain a virgin, and I admit - if I were a virgin, I would want to marry a virgin too.

I only ask because this is real life for me. I may very well meet a man who is a virgin and desire to pursue marriage with him, and I would like a man's perspective on my situation (which I believe reflects the situation of many women). Thank you :)

58. Rnr said the following at 11:23 PM on Dec 11:

Thank you, Peter for your encouraging words.

Also, I would agree with recommending Quest for Love by Elisabeth Elliott as a great relationship resource! I have seriously read parts of it over and over at various times in my life :).

59. Amy said the following at 5:32 AM on Dec 12:

Thanks for sharing the article. A few years ago I dated a gentleman(x) who admitted to me that he had a sexual past w/ another man. Knowing this hurt deeply, especially since I had dated "x" 7 years earlier. Now I had a better understanding of his fear of commitment.

After we met w/ a counselor and he asked for forgiveness from me and we reconciled, the relationship ended. I knew the relationship could not go on further until my friend decided there was no turning back to his past.

However, I went into depression after this. I was so angry at Satan for stealing him from me and I also had horrible images in my mind of my friend's sexual encounters. I'm so thankful to God for the many praying friends and counsel I received during my dark days. I was forced to look at my own sinfulness and realize afresh the grace of my loving Father.

God has wired me to be too sensitive sometimes, and I can tend to take on the burdens of others in a way that can harm my spiritual health. Even to this day, I still have to make sure I'm fitted w/ all the armor of God in order to ward off the attacks from Satan that can creep in when I'm about to make a big decision in my life or feeling the stress of my job, etc.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."

60. diana said the following at 9:34 AM on Dec 12:

Articles like this are great because they bring out so many varied responses; and so many on here have expressed perspectives that I may not have thought of on my own! That's the great thing about blogs like this. Sorry my reply will be so long but this is an issue that hits close to home.

I think that, like anything, balance is the key here. Yes, it's okay to regret and be emotionally affected by someone else's sexual past. It's okay to have to work through it in your own heart. It's also wonderful to see how Scripture affirms itself...good things can happen out of something bad, such as the spiritual growth that comes from dealing with hurt and personal pride. Both parties have the opportunity to grow--the one with the sexual past has the opportunity to experience God's total forgiveness and restoration, along with their spouse's grace about it; and the "virginal" spouse has the opportunity to exercise God's love, subdue personal pride, and live in grace toward a fellow sinner.

In my own personal experience, the journey has been worth it!! The issues I've had to confront because of my husband's sexual past, have caused me to deeply think about my own core beliefs about God, sin, pride, myself, and others. God has truly used something bad to grow something very good and precious in both of our lives.

One recurring thought that has helped me more than anything--my life, with all its imperfections and hurts, is my story given to me by God, not someone else's. Comparing myself to my own distorted vision of what I think my life should be like, or to other people's ideas/lives, is like trying to overlay their stories onto mine. Just because someone else may have married a virgin and doesn't have to deal with that particular baggage, doesn't mean that I also "deserve" to do the same. Everyone has their issues! God is weaving my life story differently and He gently reminds me, when I start to compare, that "this is my story for your life, and I have a different story for their life--what is that to you?" This perspective that God has used to help me with in dealing with my husband's sexual past, also now helps me during our current infertility problems. When I see friends, family, and young teenagers getting pregnant with abandon, the old "it's not fair!" demon rises up within me. Then God's whisper to my heart "that's their story, this is yours", comforts me. So you see, the growth that I've experienced from dealing with sexual baggage has made me stronger to now deal with another of life's challenges. It has helped immensely; and I can say that God DOES heal, with time, and the sexual past issues don't come up to haunt me as they once did.

61. Sean said the following at 4:33 PM on Dec 12:

I don't know why, but this issue gets under my skin. It really does. I read through these comments, and I definitely take a certain side (if I can put it like that).

I think of the women portrayed in John 4, and Luke 7. "Unclean" women; women with reputations. All I can see is women who've powerfully encountered Christ, who worship and proclaim him boldly and in the face of judgment. And I see Christ FIGHTING for them.

Again, I don't know why this resonates with me, but the idea of redemption is a serious theme in my walk. When I studied these passages, along with Hosea and others, God showed me more of Himself. Now when I'm able to share the gospel with people, publically or privately, I point to these passages, and point to God's heart for the redemption and reconciliation of very sinful sinners.

I bite my lip as I say this, because it might be criticized as an overly romantic or hopeful or whatever-else view of things....but I feel like there would be honor in marrying someone with a broken past. To live as a redeemer to that person, to image Christ. It would require a lot of dying-to-self, humility, and struggle. But I think it's one of those things that we would be counted worthy to suffer and live out with someone.

That's just me as an individual. But as I've talked about this with more than a few people, it seems like this perspective is very needed. The theology of redemption is life-changing if fully grasped, and if one has the courage to live it out.

Oh, and I say all that as a virgin.

62. Amir Larijani said the following at 11:53 AM on Dec 13:

I can understand a guy (gal) harboring some skepticism over her (his) past during the courtship phase. (Some very frank discussion and counsel are appropriate, and may be necessary.)

But ten years into a marriage? That reeks of a Texas-sized pride issue.

About ten years ago, a single gal in church--who was quite the prude--spent a large amount of time wearing her virginity on her sleeve. She made a habit of suggesting that marriage have a higher rate of failure if there is promiscuity involved.

I then pointed out that...

(a) It is true: divorce rates are a serious black eye for the Church.

(b) premarital promiscuity hurts the chances for marital success. When both partners enter the marriage chaste, that certainly helps.

(c) Even more helpful to marital success is the study and practice of the truth, as well as regular prayer. Divorce rates for families who pray together regularly, are miniscule.

An integral part of the practice of the truth, is being forgiving. Look at couples who have been married 30, 40, even 50 or more years. Ask them about the top 5 things that have helped their marriages succeed. I'll bet every one of them mentions forgiveness.

I'm not saying that the chaste party shouldn't ask some pointed questions of his or her mate. This, in fact, should happen. It is important to know if the prospective partner is legitimately repentant.

Before doing this, however, it may behoove you to look long and hard at your own life, and determine the extent that you have truly been chaste. You may need to pull a log out of your own eye.

(For example: if you are--or have been--steeped in porn usage, can you honestly say that you are chaste and your potential husband or wife is not? I would certainly beg to differ.)

Still, forgiveness is a virtue commanded of all believers, and is absolutely essential to marital success.

I've seen couples--virgins on their wedding day--end up divorcing. I've also seen previously promiscuous men and women go on to be Godly husbands and wives.

The refusal of one mate to nurture a forgiving disposition, on the other hand, is more corrosive than the effect of any premarital scandal. I have yet to see such marriages succeed.

63. Kelly-1 said the following at 8:10 PM on Dec 13:

Trevor Dolby (#18)

"but waiting ten or fifteen years and being celibate the whole time is _really_ difficult for most girls."

I would rephrase this as most HUMANS.

I feel sorry for my sisters who caved. They were probably exposed to extreme pressure, threatened with break-ups, or believed it would lead to marriage.

---

This article's comments once again highlight the difference between 30-something male virgins and 30-something female virgins. The men will hold more strongly to the idea that they want a wife with equal chastity. The women openly admit to the struggle and say they are trying to get through it.

64. Sarah P. said the following at 9:47 AM on Dec 14:

girl (#52) said: God writes all sorts of love stories, you know, Hosea's and Isaac's both (Personally, I've always wanted a Jacob).

By which, I am assuming that you see yourself as Rachel. What about Leah? Or Bilhah, or Zilpah? :P

Not trying to attack you; just a thought. God bless!

65. Cat said the following at 10:10 AM on Dec 14:

Trevor Dolby (54): There is nothing in the Bible that obliges a man to marry an immoral woman (short of a direct command as to Hosea), and many parts of the Bible that speak against it.

Acts 10:15 Do not call unclean what the Lord has made clean.

Trevor Dolby (19):the death penalty for pre-marital immorality in Deuteronomy applies to women, and not to men.

As a girl who hangs around feminists (and considers herself a slightly modified, christian feminist) I respond to this one a lot. It's not true. I went through the book with a fine tooth comb and couldn't find a hint of it. the Laws of Sexual Morality are found in chapter 22: 13-30. At no time is the woman ever stoned without the man unless she marries, her husband believes her a virgin and it is proved she is not. At no time is man ever stoned without the woman, except in a case of rape.

I'm curious...when do ya'll ask if someone is a virgin. Is it a first date thing, you know, just to get it over with. "In my spare time I organize my sock drawer. And you? and are you a virgin?"

When is it "ok" to ask someone if they are a virgin?

66. Ultraviolet said the following at 10:11 AM on Dec 14:

Trevor Dolby (#19 and 56)...

It seems to me like you're saying that it's easier for women to get over a man's sexual past than it is for a man to get over a woman's? I'm not sure if you're offering this as a form of comfort to women, but it seems like this is mostly just playing into gender stereotypes where it's in a sense okay for a man to masturbate or be promiscuous because it's socially "expected" of men, but it's somehow worse when a woman does the same thing. It seems like you're saying that it's categorically worse for women to have sexual pasts, thus why it would be harder for a man to get over. That is a ridiculous double-standard, and I'm curious to know what other people think of this.

67. Portland said the following at 10:17 AM on Dec 14:

@ 57
Emily,
I can't offer you a male perspective, as I am female, but I would say that in reading this whole thread, it never occurred to me that molestation or rape would change a woman's sexual purity status. Since molestation and rape are never chosen by victims, you are nothing short of pure and blameless. I'm sure that you know this, but none of it was your fault.

68. Lis said the following at 10:26 AM on Dec 14:

Sean #61

You ROCK!! i cannot tell you how much those words meant to me, knowing that there are men who would be willing to take the opportunity to help heal, encourage and care for someone that they found out had makes mistakes in the past.

69. Nathan F said the following at 11:29 AM on Dec 14:

I'm surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of pornography as sexual sin. I'm thinking particular of the sermon on the mount where Jesus links sins in our heart that aren't acted out on as the same as those that are acted out on. I don't mean to suggest that Jesus didn't distinguish between tangible consequences, but at some level, a degree of the difficulty with forgivenes has to flow out an unbiblical distinction between sins of commission and sins of thought.

Particularly for men, I'm thinking - and there was a recent post about this - that nearly all have viewed pornography ... which means we're all (myself included) sexual sinners in need of forgiveness. So this is an issue that all women will have to deal with. And I'm fairly certain that the Bible says nothign about men being particularly prone to sexual sin (indeed the burn w/ passion reference in Corinthians is parallel beween men and women, so that seems to imply that both are equally prone to it) which means there is an equivalent form of (perhaps less obvious) sexual sin that women struggle with and likely nearly every man will have to forgive.

At some level, regardless of whether or not our sexual sin involved physical expression, we are all sinners in need of forgiveness. I think, to that if we struggle with forgiving others, then we haven't realized how sinful we actually are.

And a little personal vignette/comment: God's been gracious, so gracious, to me in not having me placed in situations in which I was tempted beyond my ability to resist (as far as physical expression of sexual sin goes). However, I recognized my past struggles with pornography as terrible sexual sins and recognized the chances of finding a Godly young women who was as "inexperienced" as I, fairly slim. I figured that her having "experience" woudl have been painful - particularly in the area of insecurity about being compared and never quite sure if you'll be found wanting, not being a uniquely shared experience together.

However, God was far more gracious that I could have dreamed or even known expect in letting me meet a wonderful, beautiful, Godly, young lady with as little "experience" as me" (which is to say no practical experience). As we've together thought through marriage and all that it entails in terms of sexual intimacy, I think we've grown to recognize how much greater the gift of mutual virginity has been for each other that we originally may have thought. Particularly the thought that such intimacy is primarily about us sharing, uniquely, in something that none other ever have or will experience with others. That's an expression of uniqueness, something that is unadalterated, something that reflects the exclusivity to which we are to love our Gracious Father God. So I gather than my initial thoughts about being painful but not impossible to forgive may have been a bit understated, but I'm (praise God) not in a situation in which I'll have to ever test that hypothesis!

I do empathize with the pathos poured out by so many readers about pain they've went through in this, as well as how the this has been the means by which our Gracious God used that pain to bring them to greater forgiveness, greater humility and greater passion for God's forgiveness and grace.

70. BDB said the following at 12:12 PM on Dec 14:

Amir (#62) wrote:

>>But ten years into a marriage? That reeks of a Texas-sized pride issue.<<

Or things that weren't dealt with are just bubbling to the surface. I know couples who didn't wait until they got married, didn't really deal with it, and it resurfaced as an issue years into their marriage. In one case a husband reached the realization that he needed to ask his wife's forgiveness for pushing her before the wedding; until that point he hadn't taken responsibility for initiating sin.

71. BDB said the following at 12:21 PM on Dec 14:

You know, one of the things that hasn't come up is widows and widowers. It's perfectly acceptable from a Biblical point of few for such individuals to remarry. This is something quite relevant to the widows of those killed in military action, for example.

For those who feel strongly, do you have any different feelings about widows vs. those who were partying and hooking up?

72. Kellie said the following at 1:20 PM on Dec 14:

Not sure why #18 was directed at me. Are you implying that it is not a sin for a man to have premarital sex? That it is less of a sin for a guy than a girl?

I do think from what I have seen that it is generally harder for a guy to deal with a future spouse's sexual sins than a girl. I personally, had a harder time with my husband's prior relationship in which he did not even kiss the girl, because his emotional attachment to her was very strong. Not that it matters now in the least. I'm his wife, the mother of his child, the past is the past.

73. MacKenzie said the following at 2:33 PM on Dec 14:

To Trevor#19/#56. I agree with #66. I do not think a women's sexual sins are "more wrong" than a mans nor do I think it easier for a women to deal with a man's past than a man to deal with a woman's past and I'm not real sure how you are trying to use the creation story to back that up.

It wasn't easier for me to deal with because I am a women. To be honest, it wasn't easy at all and the fact that I accomplished it can be entirely contributed to God's working in my heart and my marriage and not anything to do with me or my gender.

And when I say "deal with" I don't just mean deal with my emotions but also the negative consequences that vary from physical issues to emotional and spiritual ones. They are very real and both my husband and I will be fighting for our kids to make godly decisions in this area so that they avoid those issues.

In bringing up the consequences, I don't want to scare anyone off from continue a relationship. I don't think it would necessarily be wrong to not date/court/marry a person because of their past, who you marry is a personal decision, but if you truly feel like this is the person God intends for your life and your worries about what feelings and struggles you might have in the future is the only thing you are worried back, I would you to not hold back. If I had, I would have missed out on something amazing.

A number of the comments make it seem like in marrying someone with a sexual past, you are discounting those sins and their consequences or dismissing them as "not a big deal" but acknowledging God's ability to redeem a person from sin and renew their heart doesn't show how small their sin was but how big my God is.

I do wish I had known that the issues I thought we dealt with during our engagement might resurface once we got married, not so that I could change my mind but so that I could have been better prepared for some of the challenges and received better counseling. Thankfully, God did bless us with some amazing wiser Christians to help us and I would encourage the few of you who mentioned being engaged to someone with a past find a older Christian couple that you will have access to during your first few years of marriage. (Well, I would actually recommend that to all engaged couples). By building a relationship with people now, you will have a place to turn for wise counsel when you need it, especially when the topic is of such a delicate and personal nature.

74. Peter said the following at 2:42 PM on Dec 14:

Emily #57

Wrote "I would, however, like to know what you would do in the case that virginity was lost against a woman's will. I was molested at the age of 3 (yes, I was young, unfortunately, I remember it.)"

Dear Emily.
If it helps you to understand how seriously I take this sin AGAINST you, I will say that I believe that the application of capital punishment for such crimes in the Old Testament is appropriate, and that its lack shows the relative barbarity to which my culture has descended. Not as a matter of vengeance (although any man with a decent protective instinct will have difficulty regardin this crime perfectly dispassionately) but because protecting the helpless should be one of our highest priorities. I would push the button or cast the first stone myself (after due judicial process) as part of my responsibility to God and society.

With respect to marriage - while all such things should be considered thoughtfully, I believe that the victim of abuse does not need forgiveness. Like a widow, she has nothing that she should be ashamed or guilty of. As far as that is concerned, it would not be a significant disincentive to marry.

What *may* be a concern, is the emotional reaction of the indivual victim in question. I say that because I am under no illusions that I am good at dealing with emotionally hurt people. I am - by birth - somewhat handicapped in the area of emotional sensitivity and empathy, (Aspergers Syndrome) and that would not make life with me any easier for someone with major hurts and who depends on me for healing.

I hate this. It is probably why I am still single and why I may die single. But I have to face it and live with it, just as one does any other handicap.

Grace and peace be with you. In Christ... Peter

75. Emily said the following at 2:51 PM on Dec 14:

#67 - Well, in my mind, it makes no difference between those experiences and consensual sexual experiences because I've been forgiven by Jesus. I've long since given up that inner debate because it's fruitless.

I only asked because A: some of the comments on here and
B: I once had a man who was interested in me, only to be rejected by him when he found out about my past. Forgiven or not, I was still dirty in his eyes. And as much as I want to say that I get all of my worth in Christ alone, I have to be honest and say that rejection hurt.

#61, Sean - THANK YOU! It is so encouraging to know that there are men out there like you. :)

76. Peter said the following at 2:53 PM on Dec 14:

BDB #71
Wrote "For those who feel strongly, do you have any different feelings about widows vs. those who were partying and hooking up?"

Yes

77. girl who has never been kissed said the following at 4:17 PM on Dec 14:

Sarah P. #64--

All right, I'll be more specific! I always wanted someone with the patience of Jacob. (Besides, it was Laban who started that mess with Leah and the others!) There was actually good reason, involving my family, that any man who wanted to marry me really would need the patience of Jacob. And my family loves to joke about "when is the seven years supposed to start?" and sending him out to herd goats (yes, we really do have goats). Not a perfect example, of course, but those are pretty hard to find in this matter!

78. EJ said the following at 4:46 PM on Dec 14:

Something that I was thinking of as I read this post was the example of the Lord Jesus. We are all the bride of Christ. Can any of us say we are a virgin bride?

79. Sean said the following at 6:10 PM on Dec 14:

Lis,

Amen! And thanks for the encouragement.

Two things tend to happen when this comes up and I share my conviction: some people get really uptight and offended, and others are deeply thankful and supportive.

Some believers with more broken pasts struggle in isolation and feel like they can never bring it up and receive the encouragement they need. I taught on this at a small bible study on at a college campus one evening, and some of the students there heard about this sort of personal redemption for the first time. It helped them fight off feelings of hopelessness and unworthiness, and make concepts like justification and atonement real and personal. And learning and teaching it myself changed my life.

The women of John 4 and Luke 7 are two of my biblical heroes. I don't know how I could ever say I wouldn't marry someone like them.

I suspect that Jesus might speak to some people about this issue like he did with Simon the Pharisee: "I have something to say to you...." Which usually means "uh-oh" for that person.

We should all probably pray something like this:
"Lord, continue to fight for those you've redeemed, for they love much as they've been forgiven much. When it comes to marriage, may you provide someone who seems them just how You see them, and are willing to love and help them walk in redemption. And don't neglect those who've been faithful all along. May they love much because they've been kept by your grace much. May we all realize that the degree to which we've obeyed You is only by Your grace. May we be willing to reflect You as a redeemer in the lives of the broken, no matter the cost, no matter the relationship. Kill our sense of entitlement, for we all have it, and fill us with Your sacrificial love."

Amen?

80. Emily said the following at 7:15 PM on Dec 14:

#74 Peter-

Thank you for your perspective. :) And as for your marriage situation - Have faith! I know this gets tiring sometimes (I too, tire of hearing it) but the Lord has a plan! Judging from your response, you seem to be a thoughtful, godly young man quite capable of supporting a woman emotionally.

Granted, some women need more emotional support than others. If you desire marriage, keep praying, hoping, and being intentional! God bless you!

81. Trevor Dolby said the following at 7:20 PM on Dec 14:

Kelly-1 (63): Probably true for humans, but I was responding specifically to a woman, hence the phrasing; I agree with your point about the comments.

Also, you bring up a key aspect here: an awful lot of the women who "caved" were (as you say) deceived or pressured by men! As far as preventing the pain described in the original article, this is surely the key concern - in my observation, it's not normally innocent girls chasing men down and forcing themselves on them (though I'm sure that does happen).

82. Trevor Dolby said the following at 7:21 PM on Dec 14:

Cat (65): Not clear how Acts 10:15 would constitute an obligation to marry someone . . .

I think you might actually agree with me about stonings, btw - the woman would be stoned for having been immoral before marriage, while a man would not. That she would only be stoned if she got married is a very interesting detail you (correctly) point out; the woman would be safe if she remained single. Men, of course, were much more free to visit prostitutes, etc. This caused problems (e.g. see Jephthah in Judges 11) but wasn't classed as a sin in the same way. (There's also the whole Judah-and-Tamar thing, though that was burning not stoning IIRC).

I am in no way condoning a lot of stuff that men do, but it does seem clear it's not addressed in the same way in the Bible as womens' sin is as far as consensual activities are concerned. (Non-consensual stuff, of course, is where the men are put to death and the women not).

83. Trevor Dolby said the following at 7:26 PM on Dec 14:

Ultraviolet (66): Well, there _is_ a double-standard in the Old Testament: think of the situation with Judah and Tamar, for example. There is also a double-standard in human biology as far as virginity is concerned. Note also the Biblical acceptance of polygamy, where the man _will_ have a past (and present, and future), while the women (unless widows) generally would not. None of this is very popular these days, of course :( and these double-standards are one of the most common criticisms of the Bible (in my experience).

None of this should be seen to make light of men's sin in this regard; after all, most forms of sexual sin take a man and a woman, so there's at least one guilty man for each guilty woman! In fact, if you include things like rape, then there would be more guilty men.

For the record, though, the Bible says a lot less about "sexual pasts" for men than it does for women, and I believe that we should consider this a hint, and pay attention; the Bible does not contain things simply by accident, and we must allow it to speak to us.

I don't really think of things in terms of "worse" or "better" as categories in this sort of matter; from the original article and the comments here, I think "different" is certainly a fair statement. As always, individual experiences may vary.

84. Trevor Dolby said the following at 7:27 PM on Dec 14:

Kellie (72): 18 was directed to Rachelle (13); are you thinking of comment 19? I mentioned you in that case because your stated experience in comment 6 contrasted greatly with the original article. I probably confused you by using the word 'you' near the end to mean women in general, rather than you in particular :( Sorry.

Your comment about past emotional attachments intrigues me, probably because I haven't really thought about that whole issue very much. Thanks for sharing that.

85. Trevor Dolby said the following at 7:31 PM on Dec 14:

MacKenzie (73): As above: I don't think of this sort of thing in terms of "more wrong" or "less wrong", because quantifying sin is generally too hard for me to think about. Also, I'm not trying to belittle your experiences or anything like that: sin _always_ causes pain and trouble for everyone affected by it, and it's important to recognise that (as you have, and the original article writer did).

The creation bit is simply that the created biology of humans is a hint that virginity in women is something a husband should be able to detect, and might possibly therefore be important. Note that this one-way assertion does _not_ mean men can do whatever they want, etc, etc; it's simply a statement that God is in charge of creation, and we should pay attention to what He's created. Most societies have noticed this in ages past, and have considered it significant; perhaps they were on to something? In any case, considering the hint is a good plan, regardless of the conclusion you eventually draw.

My observation has been that women in general do have an easier time than men in dealing with what Ultraviolet called "sexual pasts"; your mileage may vary :) A quick glance at the comments here shows a fair number of women reporting significantly less angst than the original article writer. Interestingly, no men (at the time of writing) have weighed in to relate experiences with their wives . . . As usual, none of this means that men's sexual sin is okay, etc, etc.

Incidentally, it looks (from a glance at previous comments) as though the strongest statements about possible pride issues in the original article writer, "entitlement mentalities", etc, are coming from unmarried guys who (by definition) haven't lived through the article-writer's experiences; this may change by the time this comment is published (if it ever is - I'm saying way too much here ;) )

86. jack said the following at 1:59 AM on Dec 15:

I am a virgin in my 40s. I have had many opportunities to go as far as I wanted with women I have dated.

It is very painful to consider marrying a non-virgin. Those who lost their virginity in their 20s, have NO PLACE to lecture a person in their 40s who has abstained. They cannot begin to comprehend the willpower it takes, and the crushing, grinding weight of celibacy.

When a woman reveals her sexual past to me, each time I feel this awful, empty hurt.

She CHOSE another man first. It is a form of rejection of me, and one that is permanent - she can never make me first like I can make her first.

What many of you are simply not getting here is this:

A guy like me is not sitting on my high horse rejected non-virgins from my "throne of superiority".

Far from it.

Instead, I am in the ditch of rejection, having women finally deign to descend to my level after she failed to snag the cuter, hotter, more popular guy than me. If any of you want to accuse me of pride for not wanting to be twentieth choice, then feel free to kick me while I'm down.

I don't mind being 20th choice if she saved herself for me. But if she gave herself to those "better men" in hopes of getting them, then she told me that a guy like me is not worthy of being her first.

Can you people understand this? It is not about being too good for her, it is her telling us that we are not good enough.

Doubtless many of you will accuse me of bitterness. Save your breath. Accusing people of pride and bitterness is the standard Christian cop-out for not being able to make a cogent point. Any replies to my post that use the words "bitterness" or "unforgiveness" will be summarily ignored.

87. Daniela Kirkpatrick said the following at 5:30 AM on Dec 15:

@ James from UK:

WELL said, I couldn't have said it better.

My husband and I both have a sexual past before we met. We were gracious enough to take each other for what and who were at the moment we decided to get married.

I notice more and more in my single friends that they come to the marriage table with a sort of agenda and entitlement of what "God should give them as a spouse".

88. Zusanne said the following at 10:06 AM on Dec 15:

Jack (86) what you say makes sense. Not as angry or unforgiving not even bitter, just honest.

89. Ultraviolet said the following at 12:20 PM on Dec 15:

Trevor Dolby (83):

First off, the Bible does NOT condone polygamy. Tim Keller addresses this very well here: http://ia341031.us.archive.org/1/items/TheologyBites8/TK_Polygamy.mp3

He points out that every polygamous marriage turns out to be a mess, and they are in no way favourably portrayed in Biblical accounts.

Second, I’m curious as to what you mean about biological double-standards when it comes to virginity…do you mean the intactness of a woman’s hymen? If so, I would argue that the importance placed on that is much more of a social construct rather than a truth based on how things are biologically. If that’s not what you mean, I’m curious as to what biological double-standard you’re referring to.

Can you point me to the instances where the Bible addresses women’s sexual pasts (and not men’s?) You mentioned Deuteronomy, but Cat addressed that in #65. But in your response you talk about how men are more free to visit prostitutes (Judges 11)? Are you then saying that that is acceptable, based on Scripture? You say that: “I am in no way condoning a lot of stuff that men do, but it does seem clear it's not addressed in the same way in the Bible as womens' sin is as far as consensual activities are concerned.” Just because something occurs in the Bible doesn’t mean that it’s advocated by the Bible. Also, it is unclear how men visiting prostitutes and having sex before marriage would not be under the umbrella of not having extra-marital sex that is clearly condemned in the Bible. So why make the distinction between men and women?

90. Trisha said the following at 12:41 PM on Dec 15:

I don't date because one has ever been interested in me in that way (the world considers women like me plain jane's....but outside looks shouldn't matter to a Christian guy (this goes vice versa for plain joe's). If I did date and wanted too I don't think I could handle dating someone who had s__. Being in my late 30s I realize most people out there my age probably have before they were Christian or even Christian's who have fallen into that trap (I know some of them have been married before and did so within the context of marriage).

91. Trisha said the following at 12:43 PM on Dec 15:

Besides I was teased....verbally abused as a child/teen....at school from first grade to h.s. graduation so I have trouble in general just making friends. Do to the lack of experience making friends I struggle on how to maintain friendships once they are made....I still don't have a lot of friends....I have more acquaintances due to lack of common interests.

92. Sean said the following at 3:54 PM on Dec 15:

Jack,

I hear you out. You've been faithful for much longer than I have, and I'm very thankful for your example.

I have a clarifying question. Are you talking about Christian women? Are these young ladies who have made mistakes in the past before coming into a strong relationship with the Lord, or are they professing believers who have not chosen to obey and wait?

I just ask, because if they are women who sinned before coming to know the Lord, that should take some pressure off of you. It's not that they chose someone else before you, per se.

Remember that all people, in our natural state of separation from God, are described as:

-dead in sin
-following the course of the world
-following the prince of the power of the air (Satan)
-living in the passions of the flesh
-carrying out the desires of the body & mind
-children of wrath (enemies of God)

...and that's just from Ephesians 2:1-3

2 Corinthians 4:4 says "the god of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers..."

We can't forget the theological implications of this conversation. When talking about people who have had a sexual past, and now regret it and wish to live purely, you're talking about different people. You're talking about dead people who've been made alive by Christ. "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Colossians 1:13-14

We shouldn't be angry at this people, and the choices they made while they were DEAD in sin, living in the passions of their flesh, blinded by the devil. Yes, those choices have life-long consequences. All sin does. But we should blame the devil and the world for their corruption, and more than that, thank and praise God who has delivered and redeemed so many, and has helped so many to living in obedience and faith.

It's not that they didn't choose you. They were separated from God, primarily, with a different set of values and worldviews. Then, if they met Jesus, their world got rocked, and everything changed, and those past incidents went from "choices" freely made to mistakes and sins to be repented of.

I hope that resonates a little bit Jack. That's my perspective as a believer. If your situation is different, and you're dealing with a different sort of people than I'm talking about (people who've made hurtful choices in the past and came to Jesus later on in life), then I apologize.

You have a lot to offer those who are trying to remain faithful. As a still-waiting 26 year old, I look to you for your example. Keep staying faithful.

sean

93. Cat said the following at 4:31 PM on Dec 15:

Trevor Dolby (65): I was offended by your use of the word "immoral" to describe a woman with sexual sin in her past. I believe that by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus I am not immoral, I am pure and clean before Jesus Christ. I am a new creature. the old has passed away and the new has come. If a man can't accept the work God has done inside of me he is calling unclean what Gd has made clean. He is not obligated to accept me, but I will not be called an immoral woman.

Deuteronomy 17:17 states clearly God's perspective on polygamy. It will turn a man's heart from the Lord.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 states God's opinion on consensual sex outside of marriage. The unmarried man is stoned to death along with the woman.

Deuteronomy 23 17-18 speaks against prostitution of both males and females.

In another comment you mentioned a woman's virginity being detectable. I assume you are referring to woman's hymen. Interestingly enough many women, specifically in modern society are likely to have that torn at a very young age due to activities like dance, horseback riding, or feminine hygiene products.

I would also like to ask how you feel Judges 11 is a justification of prostitution or if that's the point you were making at all? I may have misconstrued what you said.

I think an important thing to remember when interpreting what the Bible says about women is that it was written primarily to men. Women were not given the education needed to read the Bible nor were they permitted to independently study it. Since they were not the intended audience of the Bible we must remember that God never creates a double standard. He is a fair and just God.

94. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:48 PM on Dec 15:

Sean (79, 92): I think a lot of the stuff you say is correct, but the actual pain involved doesn't seem to be driven by intellectual concerns, and so there's a piece missing that jack (I suspect) can see.

The original article reminds me of one of the last scenes in the the last film of The Lord of the Rings, where Frodo says "It's been four years to the day since Weathertop, Sam. It's never really healed", referring to his being stabbed with a Morgul blade. Not because the wound was a constant incapacitating problem, but because the pain still reappeared at times.

The difficulty is that that sort of image doesn't present any solutions, and may simply mean that we have to live with the pain for the rest of our lives (but not forever). St. Paul had this problem, asking for a thorn to be removed and being told "no, my grace is sufficient for you" - the pain didn't go away for him, either. This is, of course, one of the most difficult theological ideas for us to accept: the problem of pain for believers.

I'm not saying all of this to attack you, as I believe you're trying to follow God and live out what He's been showing you, but the issue of pain is very complicated, because pain is often there for a reason; simply telling Frodo to stop being in pain because God had forgiven the ring-wraiths would not help him at all :)

95. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:52 PM on Dec 15:

Ultraviolet (89): It doesn't sound like I can convince you but I'll try anyway :)

I used the word "acceptance" for polygamy for one simple reason: if a married woman in the Bible marries another man, then it's considered adultery (a sin important enough to merit being included in the ten commandments), but if a married man marries another woman, then it is not always considered adultery. This is clearly a double-standard, especially as a "man after God's own heart" (King David) had multiple wives.

Note that I'm not discussing the outcomes here: polygamy seems to turn into a bit of a mess :) but that doesn't change the fact that men and women are treated differently for these purposes, which was my original point: there is a double-standard in the Bible as far as multiple spouses (spice?) are concerned.

Again with biology: social constructs might affect the importance attached to virginity, but they can't change the underlying biological facts. My point is simply that there _are_ differences, which I thought would be uncontroversial :( Given the disagreement on that level, I can't proceed to build anything on top of it at this point.

Cat "addressed" but did not answer :) Consider two scenarios:

1) A woman sleeps with various random men, and then marries someone who believes she is a virgin.

2) A man sleeps with various random women, and then marries someone who believes he is a virgin.

From the Deuteronomy passage Cat mentioned, if the husband in case 1 is unhappy with the woman, then the "men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house."

If the wife in case 2 is unhappy with her husband when she finds out the truth, there is no recourse in the Bible. This is clearly a double-standard, which was the point I was making. Incidentally, this is a case in point where "the Bible addresses women’s sexual pasts (and not men's)" . . . The Judah-and-Tamar one is another case, and I expect there are others that I can't think of right now because it's too late in the day :(

Attacking me on the facts of the Bible is likely to prove fruitless: I only have to find differences to prove my point, but to prove me wrong you'd have to demonstrate identical treatment of men and women in all cases.

I was expecting to be attacked on the _relevance_ of my statements, rather than their correctness. That's a much easier battleground, because the relevance varies from person to person, and applying the Bible to peoples' lives is best done by the Holy Spirit. Were someone to say "you're quite right about the Bible, and I've prayed about it: God doesn't want me to focus on that part of the Bible right now" or words to that effect, then I would have no further comment for them on this matter. Needless to say, other people might well need to focus on that part, but not that one person.

My major concern is that the observed reality in this article and in the comments points to men having a harder time than women in dealing with "sexual pasts", and that this is not entirely surprising given the different treatment of men and women in the Bible.

Now, for the last part of your comment :) I am saying that the Bible does not treat men visiting prostitutes (or having sex with random women) in the same way as it treats women having sex outside of marriage. The Old Testament is very clear on this, the New less so, but the overall statement stands. Polygamy is one expression of this, regardless of the results.

I make the distinction because it is there in the Bible in various places, and I believe that anything we can see in the Bible is likely to be important, and worth listening to. Note that this isn't about justifying sin, but rather about trying to understand the effects of sin (a point which came out of the original article).

I would write more about the relevance of this, but I don't know if I've convinced you :) and I don't know if you're going to say "I've prayed, and God told me not to focus on this". As I say, I was expecting the responses (if anyone could be bothered to respond) to be more of the form "fine, the Bible treats men and women differently. What's your point? Why do you bring this up?"

96. Emily said the following at 6:28 PM on Dec 15:

#92, Sean - Thank you for saying what I probably would not have had the strength or the cogency to write.

#86, Jack -

Your comment struck a chord with me. I'm actually crying now, because you wrote out the dialogue that I have been playing in my head a thousand times.

It's what I fear will go through the head of a man that I respect (and possibly love) as I explain to him my past after he has expressed an interest in dating me. It is what I fear every day will happen when I have to give a man the choice to take me as I am or leave me.

Please, PLEASE understand this (from this point on I will speak as what I believe a majority of christian women would agree with) - you are NOT the 20th choice.

You are the good choice.

I did not intentionally give away something so precious as my virginity. Rather, I was tricked out of it. Yes, my sin nature chose and consented to it. But, like Eve, I was tricked into saying "yes" as the men in my life who were supposed to protect and guide me fell silent and submissive.

I thought that sex would bring me the love that I had never known. The love that I had so often longed for. Instead, it brought me pain, abuse, and grief. Maybe not immediately, but trust me, it has.

Then I Christ found me, and everything changed. As Sean said, I was dead and I was made ALIVE again. I saw how sick and twisted what I had fallen into believing was. I changed. I continue to change.

It's not that I'm "descending to your level" after failing to snag the "cuter, hotter" (may I just add abusive, manipulative and selfish into that list, btw) guy. It's that I'm finally clear-headed enough to move UP and chose a man like you.

I pray that the Lord will help you to understand this, and that he will heal the hurts that you have obviously endured. He is hope and life, even when it seems like there's nothing left. Keep hoping and praying, brother.

97. Adela said the following at 8:26 PM on Dec 15:

Wow... After reading all these comments, I have mixed feelings. I'm a young woman in college, and when I was in 5th grade, fell into the sin of pornography by accident and peer pressure. I found Christ in 7th grade, and I was strong in the faith, until 10th and 11th grade, when marital problems in my family made me go back to porn and develop a new habit; masturbation. I have overcome those two sins again, and I've been faithfully following Christ.

Nothing can excuse for my sinful past; it is hard to think how sad it would be to say to my future husband: "Yes, I'm a virgin, never kissed anyone or did anything of that sort, but for a collective three years I was enslaved in porn and masturbation." I feel as if I'm in a weird position; from what many of you are saying, the loss of virginity is a grave thing, but what about those who are redeemed from porn and masturbation, yet never have been in relationship because of their moral standards to treat the fellow man as a brother in Christ, to keep Christ in the center of every relationship, and to be respectful towards oneself and the man in the relationship? Or who have never even given a peck on the cheek of a guy, because of wanting to respect the man and guard his heart?

I'm just very confused; sometimes I feel very guilty for what I've done, and other times I rejoice that there is still some purity left to salvage. But then, it makes me to think that porn and masturbation are not small matters, even if it only affects just one party at a given moment. As Jesus said at the Sermon on the Mount, even those who lust with their eyes and minds are committing adultery, even if it is only with themselves. Even though God has given me the grace and strength to overcome these temptations once and for all, how will this affect my marriage in the future? Even if I had overcome lustful thoughts and I'm living an amazing life in Christ, will my past totally make it null and void?

I don't know; I mean, when I look at many of my role models, such as Dorothy Day and St. Augustine, it gives me hope that yes, God can use the bad and make it into something greater than we've ever imagined. But then when I read such comments, or when I hear from other fellow Christians about how innocent they and whoever boy/girl they are pursuing, I get down in the dumps, for I doubt. I believe that, "No matter who I am, even if I become a Mother Theresa, Gandhi, or live life wholeheartedly for Christ, my past will totally come back, haunt me, and hurt my witness."

98. diana said the following at 8:39 PM on Dec 15:

I think Jack is to be commended for shedding some perspective on the topic at hand. I totally understand the "grinding" weight of celibacy, as he said, having married as a 30 something virgin. I think it's something every person has to decide for themselves--whether or not they can deal with marrying a non-virgin when they have waited for so long and practiced that self-control. I certainly wanted a man that had waited for me, and have had to deal with the problems that arose when I found out he hadn't. I also think it would have been easier if he had been unsaved at the time, and I could consider it a sin of the "old man"/ nature. But the fact that it happened after many years of Christianity, and the fact that he simply didn't seem to understand how much it affected me, made it worse.

But anyway, all that's behind us now and I have to remember that it's simply NOT my responsibility to handle his sexual past; it's my responsibility to turn it over to God and not allow it to shape and distort me into bitterness, haughtiness, or prideful sin against my husband. After all, but for the grace of God, I could have done the same thing. I had opportunity, as most of us do, and I chose to abstain...but only by His grace. I wish I could so successfully abstain from so many other sins/ shortcomings in my life!

99. Sean said the following at 10:08 AM on Dec 16:

Trevor (#94)

Thanks for the correction.

I'm totally not trying to say that a good intellectual understanding of sin/justification, past/present will alleviate the pain. I really, really, don't want to say that and don't want to come across that way.

I do however want people to have a 'whole' understanding of the sin-redemption thing, and I myself strive to see people with a rough past through the eyes of Christ (I struggle even to see myself this way. it's hard).

I guess ultimately I just wish to challenge people to show more of a 'willingness' towards people where to whom might not have been willing before. There WILL be pain involved. But that's how it goes when following Christ. Are we not going to model the acceptance that Christ has shown to us in our relationships with others? That's the cost of discipleship, the carrying of the cross. It's hard to love people who are different than us in any way.

We were filthy in our past, and Christ has made/is making us to His *spotless* Bride. Why are we afraid live that out with OUR potential bride (or husband)?

I'm not saying it would be easy. It's hard. The pain is real. Everything's hard. Trying to stay faithful is hard. Having to confess my sins to a future bride one day will be hard (I can echo Adela #97 here). And to here my bride's mistakes will be hard. I'm not saying I'm this special sort of person who can brush those sorts of things aside like they don't matter. But Jesus give us His strength here. It's what Christ is doing in my life, and all of our lives, that allows us to walk in redemption with one another. I think the Body needs to reflect it's Head in these things.

100. jack said the following at 12:59 PM on Dec 16:

100

Emily-

My point is not to make women feel bad - my point is to explain the concern on the part of guys like me.

I completely understand and sympathize with the fact that you were tricked, I am not talking about your situation.

My comments are, really, largely addressed to women who are in their very late 30s, or early 40s (my age group), who are now pursuing me.

I KNOW that I will not likely marry a virgin. What I would need from a woman who is not a virgin is very strong assurance that I am not some last resort.

I am talking about the women MY age group who have, upon reaching 40, suddenly developed a keen interest in me. These women were nowhere to be found when I was going through the years of loneliness and sexual deprivation.

Feminism taught these women that they could pursue careers, sleep around with the exciting guys for sport, and when they finally felt the call of the nesting instinct, they can abandon their bad boys and seek financial and emotional security in the arms of guy like me.

My comments really don't apply to a young woman who has time to correct her mistakes, and pursue a good man BECAUSE he is good, and WHILE IT STILL MATTERS to that guy.

--------------------------------
Relief from the crushing curse of celibacy is showing up for me now in my 40s. I desire sex less now than ever before. It makes me sad to have this part of me die unfulfilled, but it is starting to look like the most probable outcome.

How can I marry now?

The lesson for this in girls is to stop chasing guys above your level. Stop putting out in the hopes that a man will love you.

If you want a man to marry you, then find a man who will treat you like a wife, not a sex toy, even though he is not popular, ruggedly handsome, or tall (Christian girls are more hung up on height than their secular sisters).

IF YOU ARE CHUBBY - stop looking for redemption for your weight by seeking only the cute boys, while you spurn the men who are interested (don't ask how I know this).

KNOW YOUR PLACE. If you are a "5", stop shooting for the popular boy.

He WILL have sex with you. But he won't marry you.

As a Christian virgin, let me let you girls in on a little secret. I can say these things, since I have never acted on them.

Every once in a while, I will look at a not-attractive girl and think "hey, she'd be okay for a one-night stand, but not attractive enough to marry".)

Yep, us guys do think like that. Even the ones who have been winning the war of lust.

Guess what - that popular guy thinks just like that as well. Except he has an even greater number of "lesser" women to prey upon. And he will.

A woman can have sex with a man of MUCH higher status than she could ever marry.

Look at Tiger Woods' mistresses - are any of them going to be brought to the altar now that Tiger is probably going to be single again? Not likely, although I'm sure he might need a booty call here and there, as a pick-me-up.

Essentially, I am like Dickens' Ghost of Christmas Future, showing you what your world will look like 15-20 years from now, when you are my age.

Despite my Christian status, and despite that I am a virgin, I am unsuitable for marriage. Irony, huh?

I am somewhat bitter, dealing with severely diminished sex drive, and just plain worn out from two decades of rejection from haughty women, who are now SUDDENLY discovering that I am the guy they wanted after all.

These women waited just a bit too long to come to their senses. There is no longer a benefit to ME for marriage - only for them.

I just can't

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