Love Between Men of God
by The Boundless Team on 12/11/2009 at 4:30 PM
Pastor Ray Ortlund wants to change the culture in our churches to create "[i]ntensely felt, openly demonstrated love between manly men of God." Here's how:
One, “Outdo one another in showing honor” (Romans 12:10). No flippant put-downs. No undercutting. Not even waiting for the next guy to make the first move. But me getting out of my self-concern to lift the next man up with high honor. Doing this verbally, unashamedly.
Two, “Bear with one another” (Colossians 3:13). Not trying to change one another. Who appointed us to that role? Our privilege is to bear with one another’s “weaknesses and oddities, which are such a trial to our patience, ... to break through to the point where we take joy in [the other man’s quirkiness]” (Bonhoeffer, Life Together, page 101).
Three, “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths but only such as is good for building up” (Ephesians 4:29). Nothing could be more unAmerican than denying ourselves our right of free speech. Men of God filter every word by a higher standard. Even if the words wanting to come out of my mouth are factually true, the real question is, Are my words positively helping the man listening?
Manly men of God loving one another intensely and openly are a life-enriching social environment.
Throughout my adult Christian life, I've attended churches where the men are intentional about forming strong bonds with one another. Though never with such a clear charge as Ortlund prescribes above. It is the kind of man I want to be. Not only with other men, but with everyone.
1. anna said the following at 9:21 PM on Dec 11:
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Do you have any recommendations or other examples on how to build those strong interactions, both between men/men and (platonic) men/women? I'm interested in how people develop this fellowship, outside of formal church structures.
2. John said the following at 10:29 PM on Dec 11:
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Lets here it for some BROMANCE!
3. Peter said the following at 4:44 AM on Dec 12:
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Hmmm.....
I heartily recommend the proposal, as long as the honour and the masculinity are both genuine. This is one of my hot-button issues as I've watched far too many of the young men that I knew in the church of my 20's, either struggle in the Christianity, or fall away completely.
Don't fake it. Insincere and thoughtless praise dishonours both giver and recipient, as it's an insult to intelligence.
ACT as though you honour masculinity. Don't just talk about honouring men, but make sure that you make a place for them to be useful. Permitting a man to contribute says far more about how you value what he offers, than any words.
Recognise the distinguishing masculine traits and resist any attempt to "correct" them. Men aren't broken just because they do things differently.
Have a good look at books such as "Why Men Hate Going to Church",by David Murrow. Or "No More Christian Nice Guy" by Paul Coughlin. You may not agree with everything that they say, but at least take a fresh look at what it is to be masculine.
God made men, and He didn't make a mistake.
Peter
4. Lorie said the following at 3:23 PM on Dec 12:
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What a great idea. It is hard sometimes--okay, most of the time--to forget about myself for the sake of others. However, this reminded me how important it is that I make loving others my goal. If I am filled up with the love that God has for me, I need not worry about "running out" when I share it with others :) I have been given the ability to decide what comes out of my mouth, I must use that power wisely!
5. Meredith said the following at 5:07 PM on Dec 14:
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Sad to say that the rise of acceptance of homosexuality has simultaneously led straight men to feel uncomfortable/homophobic about this kind of relationship.
6. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:01 AM on Dec 15:
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I like the ideas here :) Avoiding the verbal abuse that sometimes masquerades as conversation can only be a good thing.
Beyond words, though, the comments on the linked article also contain a link to another page of an interview with a guy named Matt Chandler, who seems to be trying to do some of these things in practice in his church.
For instance, connecting older and younger guys in ways that help both: "Our young guys need to know the Bible, but they also need to know how to cook a steak and tie a tie" but at the same time giving the older guys something better than merely trying to "find a church of 50 and 60 year olds, talk about the glory days, and die."
Peter (3): Amen to everything you said! Actions do tend to speak louder than words, especially when the two disagree.
All excellent stuff, though hard to actually live out.
7. Trisha said the following at 11:47 AM on Dec 15:
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Anna (comment #1)....I like to see another female and/or anyone who believes that a man & a woman can have a plunotic not bf/gf relationship. Some people don't believe a man and a woman can't be just friends nothing more.
8. twilley said the following at 2:22 PM on Dec 15:
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Meredith, #5:
That is a really good point--it's sad, and it's true. What can we do to get straight guys to overcome their fear of being seen as gay so that they can be more comfortable showing support for one another? I think there are a lot of guys out there who are afraid of that very thing, and so they also shirk showing appreciation for their brothers. True masculine validation is a beautiful thing, I think.
9. Peter said the following at 3:40 AM on Dec 16:
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Might I suggest that the term "homophobia" is incorrect, and in most cases is used dishonestly.
A phobia is an irrational and intense fear, which is not the reaction that most of us have towards homosexuality. "Disgust" is a more appropriate word.... but whichever term one uses to describe a strong preference for avoiding the appearance of aberrant behaviour, let's not abuse straight men by wrongly accusing them of an irrational fear.
Peter
10. twilley said the following at 11:06 AM on Dec 16:
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Peter, #9:
Partially, I think you're right, and that most people don't experience fear of homosexuality, but rather aversion to it.
However, in this context, I wonder if it might be somewhat appropriate? The straight men aren't necessarily afraid OF gay people, but some are afraid of being seen AS gay people. Does this other kind of fear also count as homophobia?
11. Peter said the following at 12:19 PM on Dec 16:
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Twilley (#10)
"Homophobia" is continually used as a propaganda term. The inference being that it is silly and irrational to object to homosexuality.
If you think that it's irrational to have a strong objection to being identified with something that dishonours you and your friends, then I believe that your perspective lacks something.
Peter
12. Meredith said the following at 12:28 PM on Dec 16:
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Webster's Dictionary defines homophobia as: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
So I stand by what I said.
To elaborate further, my point is that some guys are so afraid of being perceived as homosexual that they can't even show affection for another guy in an innocent manner. Of course not all guys feel this way, but I've observed it enough to know that it is true for a large portion of the male population.
I don't blame them for it, by the way!
After all, look at how scholars try to prove that David and Jonathan in the Bible were gay (probably the first bromance in recorded history). Even Abraham Lincoln has had gay rumors due to some of his close friendships with men.
One question, though, are you guys disgusted by homosexuality itself or by men who are homosexuals? As Christians I believe we should be able to show love to fellow sinners just as the perfect Son of God did. How will a gay man ever experience the love of Christ if not from a godly straight man who is willing to befriend him and show him what it means to be a follower of Jesus? I have more than one gay friend (male and female), and if I were too "disgusted" by them to spend time with them then how could I ever be a light in their world? Just some food for thought, though it may be off-topic...
13. twilley said the following at 12:57 PM on Dec 16:
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Peter, #11:
Your comment takes me a little off guard--I wasn't trying to say that being afraid of or having an aversion to gay people was irrational. Actually, I wasn't really trying to express my personal opinion at all, but just to ask an honest question. How do we define homophobia in the first place? Your post got me thinking, and I would actually really like to know if both kinds of fear are included. I really am not sure if the term can be applied to this situation at all, but I'm interested in discussing it.
I understand that you find homosexuality to be dishonorable, and that you have an objection or aversion to it. My question is--does this simple aversion (to either being seen as gay, in the context of the post, or to being identified with gay people, in the context of your post) actually constitute homophobia?
14. twilley said the following at 1:02 PM on Dec 16:
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Meredith, #12:
I think that's a really excellent question. I think that honesty, respect, and a willingness to listen are great places to start. Just as they are for men who want to build supportive, godly bonds with other men.
15. Peter said the following at 6:33 PM on Dec 16:
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Ladies (and I notice that it's only the ladies here that are asking the question)Before I answer further, I'm going to throw a question back at you.
Are you averse to being thought a slut?
Answer that, and we can talk further.
Peter
16. twilley said the following at 2:09 PM on Dec 17:
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Peter, #15:
I am not certain I understand what you are driving at, but your question makes me feel a little uncomfortable. I'm also not sure that term is appropriate for this blog.
Of course I would be averse to being called that name.
I wasn't trying to offend you, Peter, I found your original post interesting and thought-provoking. I wanted to discuss it further, but somehow we seem to be going in another direction.
17. Peter said the following at 6:56 PM on Dec 17:
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twilley (#16)
The term "slut" is nothing more than a name for a woman of loose morals and slovenly appearance. It is not swearing, and is no more offensive than the technical definition implies.
My question to the ladies of Boundless is, if they have an aversion to being identified as women of that type, why is it worng for Christian men to be averse to being identified with those who practice homosexuality?
Those who argue that such an aversion is somehow wrong, need to do so on an equal-opportunity basis.
To answer another question, I regularly associate with people whose morals make my skin crawl. It does not prevent me form engaging with them socially, or participating with them in mutually enjoyable activity that is not related to such behaviour.
However I do not seek to hide the fact that I do not do what they do, and do not want to appear to condone their lifestyle by imitating its outward appearance..
How may Christians bear witness if the world cannot see that we are different?
Regards...... Peter
18. twilley said the following at 1:53 PM on Dec 18:
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Peter, #17:
Somewhere along the line, you have grossly misunderstood what the point of this conversation is. Frankly, I don't care one tiny little itty bitty miniscule bit if straight Christian guys don't want to be associated with homosexuals or homosexuality, or if they think it's right or wrong. I don't understand why you are focusing on this, or why on earth you think I do care.
Meredith brought up a good point, which is that BECAUSE they don't want to be seen as gay, straight men don't bond with each other as deeply as they could. Somehow, from this you inferred that all us "ladies" think that they should simply realize that it's wrong to have an aversion to homosexuality. This is a huge, huge non sequiter. And meanwhile we haven't worked out any good strategies to help straight men deal with this, and we've got no constructive solutions to facilitate male bonding.
And the word slut is most definitely not a term which is appropriate for serious or polite discussion. Go try and use it with your grandmother and see what response you get.
19. anna said the following at 12:51 AM on Dec 23:
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@Trisha #7
I think that M/F friendships can definitely occur, because we have friends for different reasons. Also, I know that not every man I meet is attracted to me, nor I to them. So at least for me, there's a good overlap between non-attracted parties. :) I've had close friendships with men that were strictly platonic, and were really like a brother-sister relationship.
But I think that there are also cases where one party has deeper feelings, and in those cases, close friendships can be unwise.
And even for those people who don't think it's good at all, there are still opposite-sex friendships that occur between non-immediate family members. How should cousins interact? Or step-siblings?
So I'd still like to understand the appropriate biblically-supported method for creating or strengthening those relationships that are between opposite-sex people that do not lead to courtship.
@ Twilley
What's interesting is that is earlier generations, there was the "homosocial" bond: a close platonic friendship between members of the same sex and socio-economic class that often was closer than that between spouses. This would happen because marriages at that time were coordinated by families to secure property, social or political interests, with little regard for the will of the actual couple.
Also, not all cultures are as hands-free as the US. In other parts of the world, men hold hands and kiss as a form of casual social greeting, and this isn't confused for sexualized behavior.