Looking for a Virgin | Boundless Line

Looking for a Virgin
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 12/28/2009 at 11:59 PM

John Thomas delivers a powerful Boundless Answers to a young woman who is asking if it's realistic for her to hope and wait for a spouse who has remained a virgin. She writes:

It's not that I don't think God's forgiveness is complete or that once you screw up, you're damaged goods for life. I just simply would like to think "If I can do it; my future spouse can do it too." Face it. It's pretty disheartening to fight through temptations, beat up your flesh and go through all these precautions to preserve your virginity just to give it away to someone who didn't value you enough to do the same in their life.

This is an issue I have grappled with myself. I talked about it in "Vessel of Honor." I didn't so much maintain the expectation that my future husband be a virgin as I was, but I struggled with the deeper issue of why I was choosing to stay pure. I related to David's words in the Psalms: "Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure; in vain have I washed my hands in innocence," (Psalm 73:13). The Lord reminded me that I was fighting the battles of my flesh for Him alone. It was between us. And my purity was for His glory, not just my own benefit or as a gift for my future husband.

It reminds me of Jesus' response to Peter when he questioned what would happen to John: "Jesus answered, 'If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me' " (John 21:22).

What is that to you? You must follow me. I can honestly say that waiting until marriage for sex was absolutely the best thing I could have done. Mostly it was awesome for my relationship with Christ, because I didn't have to overcome guilt and shame in that area. But as John points out, it's really not about the "benefits."

In essence, our sexual purity (which includes virginity and many other things) is a response to who God is, not who our future (or current) spouse is. I remain faithful to my wife not because she is perfect, but because God is.

So, yes, keep yourself pure, but do it first for the sake of Christ. And yes, desire that in your mate, for the sake of Christ (and they are out there, I promise). Then trust God to do for you more than you could ever ask or imagine. That is His promise to you.

Your future spouse may not be so blessed as to have succeeded at choosing the way of purity. Truly God's grace allows any of us to choose the right path. Fortunately, God can work incredible redemption through brokenness. But what is that to you? Jesus says, "You must follow me." And in doing so, your obedience will not be in vain.

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Comments

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1. Larissa said the following at 12:54 AM on Dec 29:

What a great perspective on purity. I'd never considered the "you must follow me" verse like that before. Thanks for sharing!

2. Cathy Coetzee said the following at 3:40 AM on Dec 29:

I was adviced by a friend to read the articles on the web site. And i have been following all these articled ever since.Its like i can relate to every article that was sent in asking for advise especially
the article of 'Old boyfriend,New faith'. Im also tempted in this way alot.
I have a boyfriend which is a non believer and we are together now for 10 months now,my family is totally against the relationship.
We broke up twice last year,but ended up back together.
He means the world to me even though no wants us together,but we belive we can be happy. What must i do when can i be happy.
Please advice.

3. Holly said the following at 6:34 AM on Dec 29:

Thank you so much for this message!

I was a secondary virgin. I had a high school boyfriend that I made the biggest mistake of my life with. However, our break-up led me to a deeper relationship with God because of my brokenness. I told God that the next guy to come into my life would be the one He would pick out for me.

My husband and I waited until our wedding day, he had abstained his whole life. There are earthly consequences for not being a virgin when you marry such as feeling guilty, shame, and jealous for the other spouse. But I can honestly say through God's grace and Jesus' atonement my hubby and I have experienced a great marriage despite my sin.

I am an example that through Christ's love and forgiveness it can seem as if we were both virgins in our hearts. I wore white on my wedding day because Jesus made me that way, not because of my doing.

4. MrsLarijani said the following at 6:52 AM on Dec 29:

To this woman, I would caution her to stay away from marriage if she is going to have the "tit for tat" attitude. One should not enter into the covenant of marriage if they are going to want to stay "even" with their spouse.

I will pose a question that was posed to me often in sermons by a previous pastor: "Aren't you so glad that Jesus didn't treat you that way?" Just imagine, if Christ would have said "Well, they are just going to be unfaithful! I might as well fudge on my promise a little bit because they aren't staying faithful to me!"

Now, before I say much more, I will say that I do understand this attitude. I struggled with it. I had my share of times where I shook my fists at God in frustration "Well, if I'm not going to get married, then why should I strive for modesty!? Why should I care!?" The answer I was steered toward again and again was that I should not be living for the opinions of men. Christ gave all and I should be compelled to do the same.

As a now married woman, I am so very thankful that I didn't do anything I was tempted to do. I am seeing small fruits of faithfulness bud - which is not of my own doing.

Yes, my husband & I are still in the newlywed stage, but I brought minimal baggage into the marriage. For that I am very thankful - and so is he. There are enough things to work through in this sinful world. Giving yourself additional baggage to carry into a marriage is never a good idea.

5. ally said the following at 8:03 AM on Dec 29:

I believe Commenter #4 is on target. Imagine choosing other sins (lets say dishonesty, pride, or gluttony)--which can all have an impact on marriage--and insisting on a future spouse who hasn't committed those. That seems ludicrous, yet it's not uncommon to hear someone say they want to marry a virgin--often equating virginity with sexual purity. While virginity can certainly be evidence of purity, it's not unusual for someone to turn to pornography, "everything but," or other somehow "lesser" sins to maintain their virginity.

I guess my other issue with this desire is that somehow it seems to be ignoring the radical nature of God's grace and redemption. I came to Christ in my 20s, and He has radically changed me, including the way I date and relate. I've not asked my boyfriend details about his history of sin (sexual or otherwise) in detail because it doesn't matter. When he became a Christian he was made new in Christ. Praise God.

6. Olivia said the following at 8:07 AM on Dec 29:

Unfortunately, I lost my virginity after I became a Christian. I thought I would save myself for marriage but gave up my resolve. For a while, I blamed and was angry at my boyfriend (who is now my ex) because I didn't feel protected even from his own struggles with sexuality and lust. I thought in order for him to stay with me, I would have to have sex or lose him. I even justified that one day we would get married.

However, because I have the Holy Spirit living inside of me, even in my sin, I had no peace about being in a relationship with him, especially when it came to the thought of marriage. We had both fallen into sin but while I sought to have accountability and holiness, that was not a top priority to him. Finally, I had to break things off with him knowing that I could never look back but to keep on moving forward in my faith and pursuit of Christ.

King David said "to You, and You alone, have I sinned against" and while I am sad that I will not have that gift to give to my husband, I have made my peace with God and have received His forgiveness. Even in the valley of sin, I learned numerous lessons about myself, my thought life when it comes to my insecurities and failings, and most especially about the faithfulness of God.

7. JVR from Denver said the following at 8:38 AM on Dec 29:

Let me put it this way. I have been a Christian for less than a year. As such, I'm not a virgin.

Am I doomed for the rest of my days to be alone, now?

Forgive me if I don't have much sympathy for that woman's arguement.

8. Adela said the following at 9:04 AM on Dec 29:

What about women and men who are virgins but have committed as Ally (#5) has said, pornography, everything but sex, and masturbation? How are they to be viewed in light of this? Are they still desirable, since they have not given up their virginity, or should they be seen as giving into lustful desires, straying from God?

I do believe that no matter what your past, God will redeem you, as long as you are willing to follow Him. His grace is enough, for without it, we will continue to fall in the areas that we need to overcome, that we want to overcome. However, especially with purity, we must remember that whatever we do, it must be done for the glory of God. Yes, we must also remember how our own sins will have consequences to not only ourselves, but the people around us, now in the future. We may not be able to avoid these consequences, but God can and will help us through the tough times and help us live the lives He planned for us, as long as we follow Him and keep Him as the focus.

So I hope that whenever I get married, that my husband will not be happy that I am still virgin, but that I've followed Christ and has been pure for not only him but for my Father in heaven, even if I strayed into porn and masturbation for two years in my childhood/teenage years. For it is not only the two people in the marriage that make it successful and holy, but the Lord Himself, for He makes those two into one flesh, blessing and sanctifying them all the days of their lives, if they are willing to accept Him fully as their focal point in the marriage.

9. Keb said the following at 9:10 AM on Dec 29:

Keeping one's virginity in this day and age is no easy task. The older you get, the more crazy people think you are. Potential relationships stop before they even get started, because the prevailing secular belief is that carnal knowledge is necessary to making a decision to marry someone. A physical relationship is assumed to be part of dating, which seems to be the only path toward marriage.

Meanwhile, statistics indicate that the number of virgins in the US by the age of 30 is approximately nil. We few who have struggled through and defended our choices against increasingly difficult odds and internal doubts can feel very, very lonesome.

It's good to be reminded of the ultimate reason why we are making such a hard choice. It feels like it would be so much easier to just give in. Maybe I'd have the husband I crave if I were sexually active...or at least a boyfriend.

I've long gotten past wanting to marry a virgin; it would be wonderful and amazing, I'm sure, but it's so unlikely. It feels like my prayers for a husband and a family aren't being answered anyway, and I keep asking God if there's something I can do differently. I've been asked before if holding onto my virginity would be pointless if I never got married...I answered that it wouldn't be, for at least I would have done the right thing. Even so, it feels like some sort of punishment that such a fate is even possible--for anyone who desires marriage.

I think our society has developed in a way that is making marriage a very difficult goal to reach.

10. Sylvia said the following at 9:38 AM on Dec 29:

I agree completely with everything here, and in the Boundless article. Yet, there is another aspect that I struggle with. I feel that a man who marries me will be able to trust me. I have never fallen into the arms of another man throughout the lonely troubled days of singleness, and it is unlikely that I will go that route during the ups and downs of a marriage.
On the other hand, I find it rightly hard to trust someone who has habitually turned to sex to treat his loneliness and stress. There is loneliness and stress in marriage. I am not going to be enough for a guy like that. Who can? When the woman he married is bumming him out, he is not in the habit of going to his knees, or to his Bible or even to his male friends. Rather, he is in the habit of finding a woman to talk to, and letting what happens happen.
Ok, so I am not talking here about every guy who made a mistake back in high school. Not every non-virgin has this compulsion, but I have seen what happens when men start using sex as a drug rather than as the bond it is meant to be. I have also felt the searing sting of betrayal by men who could not stop using sex this way.
I, also, am in my thirties, and probably will not marry a virgin. If the Lord does see fit to bless me with a husband, I hope that I will reflect God's grace in every way possible, however, his past is likely to be painful to me, and my trust will not come easily. If he was once married to a woman who was entirely at fault for his divorce, I would need to be convinced that his judgment has improved.
I'm sorry that sounds harsh. I am a sinner who has found forgiveness and cleansing through Jesus Christ. I don't want to prevent anyone from knowing that freedom. At the same time, the pain of loving someone who has misused sex, and seeing him unable to stop is so intense, so deep. Maybe this will encourage those who have been saved to live lives of such complete integrity and purity, that the ones they fall in love with will see that old things have indeed passed away and their lives are indeed hid with Christ in God.
Thanks for listening.

11. Tami said the following at 10:10 AM on Dec 29:

Yay for John Thomas' column. I find the statement "you had sex before you even met me, and I take that personally" really hard to justify. I think our desire to make premarital sex *more* about how it affects a person and his or her future marriage, and *less* about obedience to God, is but an example of the American church's erroneous foray into pragmatism (e.g., give to the Lord because you will be blessed; come to church because you will make friends; etc.). We need to remember to keep first things first -- First being God. If we sin sexually prior to marriage, it is [as Olivia (6) reminded us, via King David] against the Lord first.

I also appreciated the distinction he made between "treating others as they treat you" and "treating others as you would have them treat you" important. It can be really painful to live in that way, especially when someone's really hurt you - but it can also be a witness of Christ's power, as He's really the only one who can enable us to do that.

12. Robby Hall said the following at 10:18 AM on Dec 29:

I think women are quick to put that on men, but don't want the same treatment. I think some women have a hard time taking responsibility for their own sexual behavior and choices.

While it may be my responsiblity as a man to protect my wife/girlfriend from sexual sin insofar as it has to do with me, in the end it isn't my fault that she sinned but rather a failure of my leadership in my own actions towards her.

I agree with what someone said about applying this to other sins. Sex has taken such a foothold of preoccupation in the church that Sin itself has taken a backseat to someone's pet agenda.

Remember what the article said, virginity is an act of purity for God.

13. Dan from Newnan, GA said the following at 11:23 AM on Dec 29:

I would also like to add that purity is also a gift you give yourself. I know that isn't the "christian" way of thinking about things, because we are supposed to do it for God and our mate, but your purity will help you respect yourself more and it is a great way of treating your body well (remember it is the temple of the Holy Spirit).

14. Anonymous TWO said the following at 11:58 AM on Dec 29:

To JVR from Denver (post 7) and other with similar concerns.

I PERSONALLY want to ENCOURAGE you with my post here. I can't relate to not being a virgin at marriage because 1)I am a virgin, and 2)am not married yet, but I hope that what I write here will give you hope.

I am now engaged to be married this summer. That is the good part. Now for the hard stuff. Let's use baseball as our motiff. Dan is at the plate digging in...

I have not been pure, despite being a vigin (most men and some women will know what I am talking about)...

STRIKE ONE!

I am in my early 40s...

STRIKE TWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I have had several girlfriend and none of them were "the one"

Foul tip (I am now in the hole with a 0-2 count)

I have a decent job and don't live in my mom's basement...

Ball one.

I am a man Christian man in my 40s and am not married...

STRIKE THREE!! YERRRRRRRRRRRRR OUTTA HEREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

Ok so being in my position (past the age of 30, stuggling with sexual purity, and unmarried) there are unfortunately some segments of the christian church that have given up hope for me and would rather regulate me to the dusty old bin of "you should become a missionary".

Several years ago my depression worsened because of my feeling of hopelessness in my desire to find a wife. What is wrong with me? Am I not able to achieve that "contentment nirvana" that all my other friends somehow found in their early 20s? Is it my thinning hair? Not making enough money? My baggage? Do I have a reputation because I dated several women? (funny, I thought men were supposed to be active in finding a wife, and now I am bad because I made an effort? You can't win this one with some people...). Along about the age of 35 or so I FINALLY started to read and hear things that encouraged me to PURSUE finding a wife.

Along the way between 35 and now, I have been on many dates, and now I am engaged to be married! I do have to say in all honesty that I didn't always do the right thing over the last few years. I wasn't always intentional, I have called some of the women too many times, dated a few of them longer than I should have, and didn't always maintain purity of mind.

My point is this. MANY of us have made mistakes. Many people here and out there won't be virgins before marriage. Many of us have not been intentional. Many of us have not been pure. And yes, many of us have done things that would be considered "creepy" or uncomfortable in the eyes of others.

I do appreciate Boundless for emphasizing being intentional and being pure, but not because I "grew up in the church" and somehow think I have all the right answers, but because I have done a lot of the wrong things in pursuing a wife, and I see the value in doing the right things, despite still not having my act all straightened out.

You know what? God is FOR me, not against me. God if FOR YOU!!!! He is not against you. There is no where in the Bible where you are eliminated from the prospect of a good marriage or a good spouse because of the mistakes you have made. Somewhere in the Old Testament the Lord says "I will restore what the locusts have eaten." This verse gave me hope years ago and still encourages me today. Be thankful for those who are virgins prior to marriage, but I want to encourage you to be VERY thankful for what our Lord means to you and for what He can do through you because of your past! You may be able to encourage those who otherwise are not open to listening to those who have not made those same mistakes.

You are loved by God and He will not hold your mistakes against you! I hope you hear more messages of encouragement over the years!!!!

15. Carol said the following at 12:21 PM on Dec 29:

This is something I have been thinking about lately, and came to the same conclusion as Mr. Thomas. Yes, I have been saving myself for marriage. But EVEN IF I NEVER GET MARRIED, I have still obeyed the Lord. I am staying pure, not for any human person, but for the Lord Jesus Christ. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son to obey the Lord. I must be willing to sacrifice the hope of having any children at all for the Lord. Easy? No. But the Lord gives me joy.

16. Jeremiah said the following at 2:02 PM on Dec 29:

I don’t know, I’ve met an awful lot of Christian women that tout around their virginity like its some big prize. However, as mentioned in several of the previous posts, sexual sin is just one of many. It’s no better or worse than say pride, or maintaining a judgmental attitude toward those that have stumbled in the past...

Also, there are a ton of studies out there that show that 1 in 4 adult women have a lower than average interest in sex to begin with. Maybe I’m abnormal, but the idea of marrying a virgin seems to me like it’s a mixed bag. If she is like me, then I commend her perseverance and know that maintaining sexual purity has been a huge struggle for her. Hopefully, God looks at that sacrifice as being something worthy... However, if the light switch is not “on” so to speak (which is a distinct possibility), then this poster really has no basis of comparison with me or her other male peers. I worry about the empathy level in women that just don't "get it" when it comes to the struggle that most men face in this area...

Regardless, all sin is against God. Standing fast against sin is also a matter between God and the individual…

17. Nancy said the following at 2:33 PM on Dec 29:

I did not become a Christian until I was 21, and fell into the category of someone who did "everything but." I have the non-believing family of my best friend to thank for remaining at least a "technical" virgin, and being raised in a household where I would've been physically hurt if I'd come home pregnant.

All that to say, my motives were anything but Christ's best for staying a virgin. But God has redeemed my past, and I was so glad to read the response to this question. Our whole lives are to be lived for Christ first, not merely our sexuality.

18. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 2:33 PM on Dec 29:

This is something I have wrestled with quite a bit . . . as a still single, late 20s virgin I would like for the man I marry to be the same. But, I've come to see, through some very frank and honest discussions with mentors, that what ultimately matters is how the person is living now. Have they truly repented of their sin and turned from it in God's strength? Are they growing deeper in their walk with God and living in purity now?

Just because someone has called themselves a Christian for most of their lives, doesn't mean that they are any less of a person for having fallen in the area of maintaining sexual purity. I'm sure that most of us, whether in the area of sexual purity or any other area of battle against sin in our lives, have fallen and had to repent of and turn from our sin. And, ultimately, sin is sin. Just because someone has sinned sexually and you haven't doesn't make you any better than them. We're all sinful people who are forgiven and made new by our heavenly Father. As I've heard said a few times, the ground is level at the foot of the cross - no matter what sins any one person has committed.

I guess, they way I have come to see it now, is that, yes, I would like to marry a virgin, but it's not a deal-breaker for me anymore. What matters most to me is how they are living now and whether they have repented of that sin.

I don't hold any ideas that I won't have to deal with doubts/questions/sorrow on my part with finding out that someone I love has a sexual past. I don't think that's possible, but I also don't think that finding out that out has to end things in that relationship. If I really am loving and choosing to continue to love that person, then that is something we will work through together. I've had to deal with this in a past relationship that ended for other reasons and I will do it again if it arises. It's not easy, but I would say it's worth it.

19. Laurie said the following at 2:40 PM on Dec 29:

I was a virgin who married a man who was not a virgin. Of course I always wished that I would marry someone like myself (who had never even kissed a guy before) but I never thought my future husband *had* to be a virgin in order for me to marry him.....Where is room for God's grace in that? If Jesus has forgiven, accepted, and cleansed my husband from all his sins (the same Jesus did for me), and sees him as covered in His blood and justified in God's sight...how can I say that he is unworthy of me or beneath me? Has it broken my heart that he's not a virgin? Yes...And God used it as a way to show me how real He is. Through my husband's changed life and repentance (I never knew him before he was saved but he has told me everything I need to know) I see how real Jesus is, in ways I have never been able to see as a girl growing up in church & getting saved at a young age, never doing anything "bad" (though all sin is equal in God's eyes). I get to see Jesus, and forgiveness, in a whole new light through my husband. You either believe Jesus' forgiveness and cleansing is real or you don't. Satan uses my husband's past to discourage me but it keeps me on my knees praying to God for grace, and to see life through His eyes...and through His eyes my husband is saved and redeemed and cleansed from all he did in the past. There are scars of course. I love him so much though! I don't understand why God led me to a man with such a different past than my own, but I trust His plan and I am so thankful every day for the grace He has shown each of us!

20. Danielle said the following at 3:01 PM on Dec 29:

I agree with many of the comments here.

And while marrying a man who is not a virgin is not a deal breaker for me (even though I would really like to), I would never question someone's desire to ONLY marry a virgin. If that's what they want, who am I to tell them it won't happen?

21. Sarah P. said the following at 3:03 PM on Dec 29:

Jeremiah (#16) said: Also, there are a ton of studies out there that show that 1 in 4 adult women have a lower than average interest in sex to begin with.

heh. I don't know the stats, but I have to point out, based on that statement alone, that there is then approximately 1 in 4 adult women who has a higher than average interest in sex. There has to be, or there wouldn't be an average. Just sayin'!

22. Joel V said the following at 3:22 PM on Dec 29:

In response to the issue, I believe that if someone desires to marry only a virgin, that is their preference and that is fine. However, we need to be careful that our attitude isn't one of self-righteousness where, as some other comments have mentioned, we don't show the grace that God has shown us if someone has not been as pure as we are.

Also, there seems to be some legitimate concern in regards to marrying someone who has not been pure and is not a virgin. I think it is important to distinguish between someone who has repented of it and overcome it, and someone who either has not repented or is still struggling. In either case there is baggage, but if someone is following the Lord, it can be overcome in His strength.

23. kume said the following at 3:27 PM on Dec 29:

Seems like no one else has yet addressed your question. Too bad its not more on topic :-(.

Based on what you say, I think you already know the answer. No one would be doing you a favor by telling you that you should stay together with this guy as long as you are happy. So, yes, you have to breakup. Which is where things get complicated because no matter how many people tell you that (and you clearly know they are right, else you would not have asked) that is not an easy thing to do.

Anyway, I can relate more indirectly to the same situation you are in. I got broken up with because the girl I was in a relationship could get back together with her ex who after months of being told no from her about getting back together finally said he had become a christian. In retrospect it seems pretty obvious that as much as she wanted to move on, she had become ensnared in that relationship and was struggling to be as happy outside of it as she was in it. Despite the fact that she was not overly happy in the relationship (else she would not have broken up and tried to move forward). I suspect the same is true of you. You are happy, but not really...

Hopefully there will be a boundless line blog post about that article. The topic is of interest to me as well.

Back more on topic...the virginity thing. I would prefer a girl who was at least technically a virgin but Im more upper 20s than mid 20s these days and realize that is unrealistic and more importantly unfair. Granted I still dont think I could look past a girl who had been with numerous men. Theres a big difference between someone who slept with their SO and someone who has slept with many SOs and/or had casual encounters. Just as I think it is wise to pursue girls who are on a similar spiritual level it seems wise to pursue ones that have more similar relationship/physical experience as well.

24. Liberty said the following at 3:38 PM on Dec 29:

I think the one commenter was on to something. I would rather take someone who has had sex 100 times before me than someone who has pride and lies, no contest

25. Jeremiah said the following at 3:53 PM on Dec 29:

Sarah P. (#21), you should probably Google it, but I think the statistics refer to what is termed "sexual dysfunction" referring to complete lack of interest for psychological or physiological reasons.

26. DannieA said the following at 4:19 PM on Dec 29:

I'm more interested in a guy's heart and their upward trajectory following the Bible even if they have made mistakes in the past...

we all have our skeletons in the closet. I'm technically not a virgin...but that was taken from me in an assault so for all intents and purposes, I haven't given myself to anyone...however, in order for guys to know what I'm about, they would have to get to know me as they wouldn't know what to think of me...as now I'm a single mom by the miracle of adoption through the foster care system....something I've wanted to do since I was a teenager and something I struggled with due to my single status while God hit me over the head last year literally.

I never knew just how much stigma children that are "foster kids" have to deal with and how it's not most people's 'first choice' when it comes to adoption...(and I'm not a saint either)

but that's why I think the heart matters most...how do you know a person is a Godly person you would want to spend the rest of your life with if the only thing you're anxious about is virginity....NOT DISSING THAT....I think it is God's BEST plan for us and I never doubt that for a second, however, some people can take that aspect and be prideful and vindictive about that above a current relationship with Christ, and that's what I would be weary of.

my 2 cents.

27. Jeni said the following at 4:50 PM on Dec 29:

Just a couple of thoughts that are running around in my head:

JVR #7 I don't think you are doomed to be alone now that you are a Christian. If past sins that have been made clean by the blood of Jesus are held against us, then I'm doomed to be alone too.

It appears to be enough of a miracle to get a single, breathing, Christian man interested in me; so I'm not adding "must have virgin" to the requirements. ;-)

28. Katrece said the following at 5:32 PM on Dec 29:

I really appreciate what Anonymous Two wrote. I am still a virgin and moving beyond my mid-20's. Yes, God is FOR me.

Right after Jesus teaches the disciples how to pray, He uses a parable to illustrate persistent asking for what one needs. We're to ask, seek and knock (Luke 11). Then seee Matt. 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give what is good to those who ask?"

Marriage is a "good thing" instituted by God. If He gifts me with the gift of marriage, He will also gift me the good gift of the right mate. That person may not be a virgin but if he has repented, he's been redeemed; for me virginity status is not a deal-breaker. For those who have repented and turned from their sins, "though your sins be like scarlet, they shall be white as snow"!!! (Isa. 1:18) I too have been washed and cleansed by the blood of the Lamb of the sins I've committed (even though mine are not related to losing my virginity). Another's sins are no worse than ones I have committed. Yes, there are more issues to deal with if someone has committed sexual sin; still God can help any relationship overcome those obstacles.

"I stand amazed in the presence of Jesus the Nazarene, and wonder how He could love me, a sinner condemned, unclean. How marvelous, how wonderful, and my song shall ever be: how marvelous, O' how wonderful is my Savior's love for me!"
(Charles H. Gabriel)

29. Maggie said the following at 6:27 PM on Dec 29:

#7: My heart goes out to you. I have been in that place too as I became a Christian at 21 with a whole lot of baggage, and at my worst times have felt "less desirable" than other girls who grew up in the church and learned about purity at a young age... YET I am reminded that God loves me and has a plan for my best. I know several married couples in which one spouse had a sexual past because he/she did not know God or was in rebellion, yet the other partner was able to see the attitude of repentance. My own boyfriend has been such a blessing, as he has repeatedly said that he is most interested in the person I am in Christ today, and not the person I was.

I just want to commend Mr Thomas for this article. We really need to rethink the abstinence message that youth are getting today, in which pleasing God seems tacked on at the end. I have seen that in youth ministry a lot and it makes me sad. Some of the kids seem to pick the attitude of: "Just hold off a few years and then you'll be rewarded by amazing sex when you're married." I feel badly when I remind them that for some, it will be a decade or more of singleness before they get married, and that the strategy of "buckling down" just won't work in the long-term if there is no focus on glorifying God.

30. Peter said the following at 6:28 PM on Dec 29:

May I suggest that we be careful lest we flee one kind of judgementalism, into the arms of another. Just as we do not know the background of someone who is not a virgin, we also do not know the background of someone for whom virginity is intensely important. Who are we to judge such people as "self-righteous", when we cannot see the heart of these people, either.

It is deeply unfair to characterise the choice as being between sexual promiscuity and "holier-than-thou".

Nor is it sinful to decide to not marry a particular person. As has been pointed out, if you have a sexual past, there are far more people who share this with you, than there are people who do not. You have no complaint.

I'm going to support the case for a reasonable amount of pragmatism. Almost all of the material on marrying well supports choosing a partner who has chosen wisely in areas such as career, financial management, and the use of their talents for God's work. It also supports choosing a partner who will share God's calling on your life, rather than hindering it. Simple, practical considerations. I see no reason why sexual irresponsibility should not be considered with the same degree of mature attention.

Peter

31. Leah said the following at 7:06 PM on Dec 29:

A lot of people seem to be suggesting it's not fair of the woman to be 'picking on' the sin of premarital sex and not other sins, and that perhaps she shouldn't get married if she exhibits a 'tit for tat' attitude.

I don't think they're being very fair at all.

There is a difference between understanding someone's repentance but still not being able to personally deal with it, and flat out refusing to try because "if I did it you should have too so I'm not even going to bother, you're not good enough". THAT is tit-for-tat.

The woman did not have a specific example (eg. a particular boyfriend she's thinking about leaving), she just wanted to know if the expectation was realistic or not. That's a fair enough question.

32. beck said the following at 10:36 PM on Dec 29:

DannieA, you are my new hero.I can't imagine the pain such an assault must have caused you, and the choice to open your home by adoption is an amazing gift to give. The foster system here can be a mess and a half...how awesome that you are part of God's redemption and healing in the life of a child.

33. Steve said the following at 9:19 AM on Dec 30:

I am coming in late to this conversation but I had some thoughts.

We should all remain pure for God's glory (1 Corinthians 10:31) and all the good that comes with it. But another thing to consider when choosing a spouse is this. Will obeying lead us to God or away from Him. There are plenty of people who remain pure for the wrong reasons. And there are those who did not remain pure who are now more strong in their faith and love God more than someone who did not stumble (Luke 7:36-50). We have to look at the whole picture because the one who remains pure maybe further from God than the one who failed in the past (Luke 18:9-14). Remember in the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32 the one that remained lost was not the repentant younger brother who had wasted his inheritance on his sin. It was the older brother who had stayed and did what he was supposed to.

I say this because God's love covers a mulititude of sins. And in our sinfulness our obedience can make us proud. Who would you rather marry? Someone who stumbled but is now a humble and repentant person who pursues Christ or a virgin who is a proud and stiff necked person who is relying on their own works rather than the work of Christ?

BTW I was a virgin when I married my wife. My wife was not. But God gave her the gift of faith and repentance that I believe made her stronger by His grace. I have sinned in countless other ways which humbles me to pursue God. But glory be to God that there is now no condemnation for either of us since we are in Christ (Romans 8).

Ideally we all would be virgins when we married but God can turn evil into good. And because we have been forgiven much we can love much.

I hope this helps in who to choose for a spouse.

34. jayme said the following at 10:10 AM on Dec 30:

Is this a first date question people are asking?
Is this a pre-first date question?

Are people really going around with "I'm a virgin" tatooed on their foreheads? How do you know this person is or isn't a virgin before you enter into a relationship? Really, at what point should this be disclosed? I say this as a virgin engaged to a non-virgin, but I didn't know his virginity status until we were established as a couple and decided to see if we should marry. Are people really out there boasting about their virginity (or lack there of)? I can just see wearing a sign saying "Ask me how I don't sin!"

35. MrsCraig said the following at 10:45 AM on Dec 30:

Encouragement for the question-asker:

I am a 32-year-old woman who was married three months ago to a 41-year-old man. Both of us were virgins on our wedding day!

Although my friends told me that I was being completely unrealistic in my hopes of finding a man who was 7 - 10 years older than me and still a virgin, I felt the same as you. (My husband received the same "advice" from his friends.) However, God chose to bless our patience.

His principles still work in the 21st century!!!

36. Robert Hall said the following at 12:27 PM on Dec 30:

I don't think anyone is saying it's wrong to want to marry a virgin. But I think that if you say you are ONLY going to marry a virgin you are saying several things:

1. I am the end of the rainbow and so a person needs to be as good as me to get me.

2. I am better than those that have sinned (ergo, I'm not a sinner)

3. you are also passing on what God has made into great Christian Men/Women.

Ultimately, Who are you to say that the person God redeemed isn't good enough to be your spouse?

37. Trevor Dolby said the following at 4:16 PM on Dec 30:

Robert Hall (36): I'm going to have to disagree with some of the things you said :(

1. It's not hard to find parts of the Bible that assume virginity on the part of women, at least, so why can't people simply want to follow the example of the Bible? Can you provide some evidence that such an idea is always the result of someone believing that they are 'the end of the rainbow' and not simply basing the idea on the Bible and Christian tradition?

2. Again, I see no reason to believe this. Can you find any evidence for this view in the Bible itself? By evidence, I mean something that would state specifically what you did: that those who say they will ONLY marry a virgin are saying that they are not sinners. I don't think you'll find anything that says that, nor anything that invalidates the existence of free will in the choice of a marriage partner (other than arranged marriages).

3. How do you know that? What Biblical reason do you have to say that a man is not allowed to choose his marriage partner based on sexual experience or the lack thereof? Why can't a man simply choose to marry or not marry based on his own preferences? Can you prove that all who do such are “passing [judgement] on what God has made into great Christian[s]”? Why invalidate a man's free will in the issue of sexual experience?

The only justification for accusing those who say “I would ONLY marry a virgin” is that they leave no room for God's direct action a la Joseph and Hosea; exclude the supernatural, and I don't think there's anything in the Bible that says “you must be willing to marry a non-virgin”.

Hope this doesn't sound too harsh – I really do believe that the Bible is the place to start in all these discussions because otherwise we're at the mercy of the cultural pressures around us.

38. Robert Hall said the following at 7:13 PM on Dec 30:

Trevor,

apparently you misunderstood my point so let me say this way:

Christ came to save sinners - period. Is it wrong for a person to want to marry a virgin? No. Is it wrong for a person to say "I will ONLY marry a virgin"? Possibly. Why? Because now you are saying God's grace is sufficient to change a person from what they were to what God intended them to be but it isn't sufficient to make them good enough to marry you.

You see, men are instructed to love their wives as Christ loved the church. How did He love the church? He gave his life for it. Why? Because we were sinful, adulterous people. We gave ourselves to other gods instead of the one we were meant for.

How can you say a person is saved by grace but you will offer no grace to a person in your marriage which is the very picture of the relationship between Christ and His church? If Christ is to present His bride to himself without spot or wrinkle by His sacrifice for her, how do you expect to sacrifice for a bride you deem unworthy because of her sinfulness?

That's quite a paradox you are creating. You are saying that a woman who is a virgin is more worthy than one who isn't despite the fact that both are forgiven of their sins by Christ and are pure and holy before him.

Remember what God said to Peter? "Do not call unclean that which I have made clean".

A man can choose whom he will. But it is clear that no mention of God's will in the choice is ever made. Perhaps this is an issue best approached prayerfully.

"Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye yet take no notice of the plank in your own eye? First remove the plank from your own eye, then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

Do not think of your virginity as a badge of worthiness. For we all are guilty of many sins besides this.

39. meg said the following at 9:34 PM on Dec 30:

I’m 26. I’m a virgin. God has preserved my purity in amazing ways.

As I approached my mid-twenties I began to realize the real possibility of marrying someone with a sexual past. As I thought about it, I realized grace has many colors. My life is the color of protective grace. Others are a shade of renewed grace. Others a shade of restored grace. But we are all unholy. We all need the same blood of Christ. We are all the redeemed. And whatever shade has covered us, it is all of grace. We can only boast in Christ.

That being said, it is possible to meet another virgin. This fall I started a relationship with my first boyfriend. I‘m his first girlfriend. We’ve both only held one other person’s hand. Our median age is 25. We are both attractive people. I never expected or thought it possible to meet someone that pure. It’s absolutely amazing. God has painted His protective grace on both our lives and He is being glorified. And that is the whole point of our relationships. His glory. It is not confined by past mistakes or present successes.

40. kenny said the following at 10:54 PM on Dec 30:

I am 34 and i am a virgin. Never dated and have a desire to marry. No one seems interested. So I am studying. I find it takes my mind of the fact that all my friends are married and having children and i am not. I plan to study until I die. I guess no matter how much you desire something, if it was not meant to happen it won't. I stopped dreaming a long time ago.
So tell me is it wrong to give up on the dream?

41. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 4:49 PM on Dec 31:

Kenny (post 40):

No.

But why?

Why give up?

I nearly gave up a year ago. I was 41 then.

Yes I have dated. Yes most of my friends married in their 20s and early 30s. Despite the fact that I dated, I grew discouraged at times. I even grew discouraged by some individuals who unfortunately have been given forum here on Boundless and elsewhere.

Do YOU want to give up? Or, is it your circumstances that make you want to give up your dream? Is God leading you that direction (to give up your dream?) You know that it is NOT a sin to have a dream. Please consider and ponder your dream and your circumstances, and try not to assume that your age and lack of dating equals the gift of celibacy. I say all this in kindness, not condescenion. God bless you Kenny!

42. anna said the following at 8:42 PM on Dec 31:

@ Kenny 40

I think a lot of Christian women are told to let the guy initiate. So don't confuse that with a lack of interest. :)

43. Jess said the following at 3:13 PM on Jan 1:

I think this conversation rings false if we don't discuss the differences between the sexes with regards to virginity. Women face a lot more pressure to be pure and chaste, and are, I think, often given the message that they cannot expect the same in a spouse. And if you look at the numbers, it's pretty clear that of the small percentage of people who are virgins upon marrying, the majority are female. It can be a difficult pill to swallow to realize that you, as a young woman, are given the message that so much of your worth as a mate is tied into sexual purity but that men are often given a pass on the same issues. It's definitely a double standard.

I say this as a nearly 27y/o virgin who has no real expectations that I will find another virgin to marry. And I think listing that as a criteria would only limit my already limited dating pool anyway.

44. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:52 AM on Jan 4:

kenny (40): 34 and never dated . . . Don't give up! The post from Jess (43) is just one example of young women wishing for more guys with those characteristics, because you'll have a lot less baggage than most guys your age.

Feel free to ignore me in what I'm about to say :) but I suspect you'll have to start small. Getting to know more women must be a good start, and asking a few girls out without expecting too much (i.e., enjoy their company but don't assume marriage is just around the corner) wouldn't hurt.

Most important, build relationships with other guys; there will be some who can point you in the right direction, encourage you in girl-chasing, and make sure you're not doing anything totally stupid (like not showering for a week, and then going on a date) :)

45. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:54 AM on Jan 4:

Robert Hall (38): I think you're confusing two concepts: someone being _my_ chosen wife, and someone being "good enough" to be my wife.

The first category automatically excludes virtually all women, but says _nothing_ about whether or not those women are "good enough". It is, in fact, highly likely that many of the other women are "good enough", but may still not be chosen by me! This does not count as "rejecting" the others; it's a positive choice, not a negative one.

While it is true that "men are instructed to love their wives as Christ loved the church", this says precisely nothing about the choice of a bride. It is perfectly believable that non-marital sexual activity can cause mental/physical issues as consequences, and God does not promise to remove the consequences of sin, only the guilt; a man choosing not to risk those consequences should not be condemned.

I accept that this is an unusual view, as a trend in these discussions is to allow men to choose wives based on any criteria _except_ virginity - from the perspective of the Bible, this is clearly insane, as virginity was expected and assumed.

46. Derick said the following at 9:10 PM on Jan 4:

Out of respect for this site's wishes, I'm actually using my real first name, so don't pass me off as some troll. Regarding virginity and marriage, my thoughts are simply this:

First, Do you consider your spouse/potential spouse to be more important and more valuable than a vehicle?

Presumably you do, otherwise it's fairly obvious where the relationship is headed.

Secondly, would you buy a car without test driving it? As long as you care about your investment you would.

If one would test drive a car, which is less important than one's spouse, then why should one not test drive their spouse before committing to marriage? Surely knowing all aspects of your spouse before marriage is more important than knowing all aspects of your vehicle before purchasing it.

47. Ted Slater said the following at 11:14 PM on Jan 4:

Derick (#46) -- I appreciate your using your real name, and for posing sincere questions.

I do have to say that your perspective is not novel; we've explored these things directly in a few articles we've published:

Stop Test-Driving Your Girlfriend

What's wrong with a test-drive?

Why Not Take Her for a Test Drive?

We also discuss it in these articles:

Mentor Series: The Boiling Pot

What Does a Biblical Relationship Look Like?

Physical Intimacy and the Single Man

I do hope you take some time to read through these pieces, Derick.

48. anna said the following at 1:00 AM on Jan 5:

Ted, 47:

I hadn't seen the boiling pot essay before, but I really liked how that was explained. Although I know this site is specifically for a Christian perspective, I thought the insights there could be used for anyone, believer or not.

49. Peter said the following at 5:09 AM on Jan 5:

I agree with Trevor (Post #45)

There seems to be a common assumption that pre-marital sexual activity is only "wrong" because God doesn't like it, not because it does real harm.

This is a false and foolish notion.

Sexual intercourse always has consequences, many of which are long lasting, if not permanent. For example, in men, intercourse triggers the release of hormones that are stronly involved in pair-bonding. Not only does this mean that a man is to some degree bonded to every woman with whom he has ever had intercourse, but it also reduces his capacity to bond with the woman he subsequently marries.

Forgiveness alone does not fix this. No more than forgiving the thug who breaks your nose during an assault, automatically results in a miracle of healing.

God certainly does do miraculous healing, but it is also obvious that He more often requires us to live with the consequences.

Peter

50. Brittany said the following at 8:56 AM on Jan 5:

Trevor Dolby (45),

"While it is true that "men are instructed to love their wives as Christ loved the church", this says precisely nothing about the choice of a bride."

Really? Who do you think the Church is made up of, people who follow all of God's laws? When this text was written, who had the Church historically been made up of?

The Church was made up of people who strayed and worshiped other gods...much like today. We make Gods out of movies, music, television, celebrities, ourselves, etc. By all means, we are all adulterers when it comes to serving our God! I should hope that you understand the point of this passage: "I am the God who made you and though you reject me, I will always love you! I will love you the same as yesterday, today and forever."

I am not saying that you MUST choose a non-virgin OR a virgin. When it comes down to it, does that really matter? I think it matters if God has blessed the relationship. Did God send this person to you? We should all be so lucky (virgins or non-virgins)! I think that most people are blessed just to find someone to spend the rest of their lives with...in order to serve God more perfectly.

If you feel like you really need a virgin, then that's your preference...but be warned that it may narrow your pool of candidates and therefor, may cause you to end up alone. I know I wouldn't want to limit myself and perhaps "only date men who have never viewed pornography", etc...I'm much more worried about the heart than the status, I guess.

"It is perfectly believable that non-marital sexual activity can cause mental/physical issues as consequences, and God does not promise to remove the consequences of sin, only the guilt; a man choosing not to risk those consequences should not be condemned."

So essentially you are saying that a virgin doesn't have mental/physical issues. My closest friend who is a virgin is totally afraid of sex! She isn't really happy about the idea...she has some mental issues to get over before she's ready to seriously date anyone. I know a multitude of people who have deep issues that have nothing to do with sex. I'm sure that the person you marry and the person that I marry will both have some issues. We all do.

I get what you're saying. You would like to avoid having issues that would make having a relationship harder...but I believe that God could bring you a non-virgin who is much better than anything you had pictured for yourself. I really hope you do find it!!!

51. Tami said the following at 9:38 AM on Jan 5:

Derick (46): Ted has offered several articles for you to read, but I still thought I'd respond as a commenter. I see these things as very different, and "test driving" as an extremely poor choice.

First, because I am listening to God in the words of the Bible, and if it says there that sex outside of marriage displeases God, then I have to obey that.

Secondly, viewing a relationship as a "test drive" implies a lack of commitment on the "shopper's" part. Why should I offer something so personal to someone who hasn't "signed the papers," so to speak?

Thirdly, a person is not a machine; I can hardly compare the experience of driving a car to that of getting to know another human being and his thoughts, feelings, and so on. And in any case, even car dealers don't let you take the car home until you've signed all the paperwork!

52. Trevor Dolby said the following at 9:51 AM on Jan 5:

Brittany (50): Regardless of who made up the Church at that time, the instruction quoted is directed at husbands who already have wives, and not at all men. St. Paul is writing a specific command to husbands, and is not saying anything about the choice of a bride.

Your second comment, that I am "essentially ... saying that a virgin doesn't have mental/physical issues" is simply not true; those words did not occur in my comment. Your words are a reversal of mine, in fact, as I said nothing at all about consequences of other sins.

In reality, sin has consequences, and sexual sin has worse consequences according to St. Paul (when talking about fornication in 1 Corinthians). Avoiding these consequences doesn't mean everything will be perfect, but it is perfectly acceptable to want to avoid those consequences. Note the word "those" (also in my previous comment) means that I'm not talking about other consequences of other sins.

However, I really think we're agreeing aggressively :) As long as you agree that it is a valid choice for a man to choose a bride based on virginity or not, then I'm happy, because that means we won't end up with men feeling pressured to ignore their feelings about this issue. (I happen to agree about the reduced pool of potential mates, but still believe the choice is valid).

The one thing about which we will disagree is that you "get what I'm saying" and conclude various things about me :) My life is far more complicated than you might think, which is why I keep my own experiences out of my comments; I fear I may have misled you by using the word 'my' in the example in my previous comment - it just seemed easier than saying 'a man' or whatever. For this reason, I start from the Bible and work outwards from it whenever possible, as that is a true source of direction for all believers.

53. Jo said the following at 9:52 AM on Jan 5:

Maybe we should all just pray that God would give us what we need, rather than what we're looking for.

54. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:56 AM on Jan 5:

Derick (#46) you said:

"If one would test drive a car, which is less important than one's spouse, then why should one not test drive their spouse before committing to marriage? Surely knowing all aspects of your spouse before marriage is more important than knowing all aspects of your vehicle before purchasing it."

I understand your point and you are not the first to bring up that analogy. However, there is one big difference between a car and a spouse (among many differences): A spouse is meant for a lifetime.

According to the "try it before you buy it" way of thinking, you enter into a marriage based upon gaining as much "experience" as possible before actually committing to signing the papers. However, there is an underlying, oft unspoken, problem: What happens when that person no longer meets your expectations? In the case of a vehicle, you just trade in your old one for a newer model or one which is more in line with your tastes. However, in Christian theology, that is not an option (with exceptions for adultery, etc).

The second, more empircal evidence of this reasoning is that study after study show that cohabitation (the ultimate form of "trial runs") actually reduces your chances of staying married. Again, theories abound as to why this is the case, but I believe it is largely related to the "no longer meets my criteria so I'll bail" mindset.

If you have no qualms about divorce (and its negative side effects on the couple, the children, and society in general) then I guess this won't change your mind. But wanted to point out what the difference was between a lifetime partner and a car was.

55. Laura said the following at 10:33 AM on Jan 5:

Derik, your questions are honest enough and I do not think that you meant to inflict any harm by them, but your analogy is not fair to women or young ladies. If you can imagine a place where women are all lined up in a row, and men are allowed to make their pick and then have their way with them without making a commitment, images of a brothel come to mind. I don’t think that is what you were trying to convey, but many young ladies *are* treated like prostitutes nowadays (and they don’t even get paid for it). This reducing of women down to the level of “object” always has and always will be disrespectful.

I have heard the girlfriend/test-drive analogy before. But there is one variable that I never hear mentioned. Perhaps it is overlooked because of what it implies, I’m not sure. But I have never heard anyone mention the role of the car dealer in this analogy. At least if you go to test-drive a car on a car lot, you have a healthy fear of the car-dealer because you know that if you wreck the car, spill coffee in it, or break off a mirror, the dealer will hold you personally responsible and you will have to pay for whatever damage you caused. The dealer wants to protect his investment and would be furious if you drove one of his cars recklessly or dinged it up. The fact that this very important aspect of the car dealership is missing suggests that people are headed into sexual relationships without having any sense of personal responsibility or an appropriate respect or value for what they are “testing,” in which case women are being treated as *less* valuable than a car, not more. If men viewed women as having a “dealer” of their own (and not the pimp kind of dealer), a car dealer who has a copy of your license in his office and surveillance cameras in his showroom, and can track you down if you so much as get a scratch on one of his cars, I wonder if the analogy is still useful?

At any rate, women are human beings, not cars. I will not compare you to a lifeless piece of steel, and I hope that you would afford me and other women the dignity to do the same.

Respectfully submitted,

Laura

56. Louise from Chicago said the following at 2:47 PM on Jan 5:

Comment 46, YIKES!

Better duck from the flying objects!

57. IMO said the following at 3:06 PM on Jan 5:

"Secondly, would you buy a car without test driving it? As long as you care about your investment you would."

I thought cars weren't investments, since they decrease in value over time. (Unless of course you get a classic car,with barely any mileage, and rebuild it over time).

58. anna said the following at 3:22 PM on Jan 5:

Mike 54, Derick 46,

I like how you've said this. The way I heard it phrased was that a physical relationship before marriage is used to see if the couple would be compatible in that way. So if they're not compatible here, it's unfixable. So then there's not a good reason to deepen the emotional relationship. So people find out first if it's something they want to deal with for the long term.

But it sounds like (please correct me otherwise) that the commitment itself is the binding factor, and the desire or ability to be physically compatible w/your partner is driven by the goal of deepening the mutual commitment?

59. Zusanne said the following at 3:41 PM on Jan 5:

Derick (#46) it SEEMS like a logical argument. But it's not.

It's rather offensive on a few levels.
1. Women aren't cars to be driven; they're people.
2. Who sets the standard, by the way? Maybe a woman will "test drive" you and find you lacking.
3. What happens if you find the woman inadequate after the "test drive." Is she considered a "used car" after that? If you don't want her as a "new vehicle," aren't you damaging her chances with someone else?

60. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:31 AM on Jan 6:

Derick (46): The "test-drive" analogy comes up frequently :) so I don't think anyone's going to be offended; I'm glad you brought it up.

Your questions lead to another question which must be answered first: how important is sex to a marriage? The answer to this gives you the answer to your questions.

If you think sex is about as important to a marriage as the handling of a car (for example) is to the car itself, then I think a test-drive makes sense.

On the other hand, if you think it's more comparable to the ability of a car to keep the passengers safe when the car hits a concrete bridge support at 50mph, then the picture changes :)

We must be careful not to take this analogy too far, of course, but I think it's clear that some of the most important aspects of a car can't be determined during a test-drive without seriously damaging the vehicle. You have to read about them instead, and accept (on faith, to a certain extent) that the writer knows the answers.

61. Christina Bernice said the following at 9:46 AM on Jan 6:

I definitely relate to Olivia (#6)!! It was sort of a situation like Cathy's (#2). So, take that as a warning, Cathy!!
You don't agree so you can't walk together. And, you shouldn't marry unequally yolked. Also, the company you keep is going to affect your being. You spend time with them, they don't spend time with God, you won't have time to spend with God. You accept one thing you don't agree with and then one day, you realize you've really become a completely different person, with no one to blame but you and the other person still won't understand you.
Happiness comes with being true to yourself in the Lord. I know it hurts but face that you made a mistake and stop making it worse. There's so much more to life so refocus; you'll be perfectly fine!! I love uu && God bless you in 2010 && always!!

62. Kelly-1 said the following at 5:44 AM on Jan 7:

jayme - " How do you know this person is or isn't a virgin before you enter into a relationship? Really, at what point should this be disclosed? "

That's such a difficult question. I was once scolded on the 4th date for not mentioning my virginity earlier. He claimed to be a Christian man, but also adhered to the "3 date rule", that is, if she doesn't sleep with you by the 3rd date, it's time to dump her.

And yes, he brought up the car analogy with me.

However, if you test drive a car, you don't BOND with it. That's what sex is. A physical joining that causes a chemical/emotional bonding. I know that if I even hold hands with a guy, I'm so much more emotionally attached to him because of the physical interaction. It's the way God made us, with sex being the glue to bind people together in marriage.

I don't want to bind myself to anyone but my husband, and I KNOW myself and I know that is exactly what would happen in my mind/heart/soul.

63. Derick said the following at 4:51 PM on Jan 7:

I'll check out those readings in a bit, Ted. I didn't think to look before I posted.

I'm sorry I've offended a few of the women here, but some of you don't appear to realize that women, too, might want to take their potential husbands out for a test drive. I did try rather hard to keep my metaphor gender neutral. It's important to note that using the opposite gender for sex is /hardly/ a limited to men.

It seems my point isn't quiiiite taken as I meant it, by some people. #60 guessed at it, though.

The point I was trying to make was thus;

Sex is an important part of a married couple's relationship. As many of you say, it's a very important bond.

If one can judge their spouse's personal compatibility based on their cooking, appearances, and personality, then is it so wrong to want to factor their sexual performance into the equation?

The person you marry is supposed to be THE one for you, so you don't really have any second chances if it turns out that they're absolutely terrible in bed. I'm sure that in someone's case, their partner is so bad at it that they can't bond at all and are not interested having sex with their spouse.

Kelly (#62), has a good point; she doesn't want to create a sexual bond with someone who will not be her husband. Suppose you limited the pre-marital sex to certain forms, or did not use sex to express your love for your partner? While that is ignoring a few of God's words, it's not like we don't ignore God's words already. Both the new and old testaments have certain instructions that we deem to not be appropriate in the modern, civilized age.

Sexual performance, unlike looks, doesn't fade with time, so it seems like being attracted to someone because they're great in bed is more sensible than being attracted to them because they're beautiful.

Consider the following spouses. Morgan is jaw-droppingly good-looking, but terrible at sex. Jamie isn't very good looking, but naturally gives mind-blowing sex exactly the way you like it. One of these two will result in a stronger bond and keep that same initial burning love stoked for the rest of your lives.

Unless my reasoning is totally off somewhere.

As a side note, sorry, but I'm not a Christian(huge surprise, right?). I'm a Deist that stumbled across this site and was interested by the views on this topic. While I may not agree with it, I don't think the idea of waiting it out is wrong.

64. BDB said the following at 8:22 PM on Jan 7:

Derick (#63) wrote:

>>Unless my reasoning is totally off somewhere.<<

YES.

Any athlete can tell you that physical performance starts weak and improves with practice. This happens with everything that requires muscles. It is completely inaccurate to measure an athlete's performance on the first day they start a new type of training. You will be able to predict performance over time based on commitment to continue training and improve from mistakes.

65. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:51 PM on Jan 7:

Comment 63, I am one women who can understand the idea of a "test drive."

If the folks on here don't agree with this idea, so be it, but the people who can understand and appreciate the concept DO NOT HAVE HORNS AND HOOVES!

66. Derick said the following at 12:27 AM on Jan 8:

#64: While the explanation on physical performance, I fail to see how that relates to my statement. If you mean that Morgan will improve with time... sorry, but Morgan is THAT bad at it. It's kind of extreme, yeah, but not unrealistic at all.

At any rate, it fails to address my argument's main issue. Try again? :(

#65: Huzzah! Someone thinks alike!

67. Derick said the following at 12:29 AM on Jan 8:

Err... Typo. The first line should be:
"64: While the explanation on physical performance is true, I..."

68. Nikki said the following at 2:20 AM on Jan 8:

Thank you for writing this! I am about to turn 21 and when I was younger, I told myself that I would ONLY marry a virgin. I am saving myself for marriage (if marriage ever happens) and have talked to many people about this issue. While I would like to marry a virgin, to me it's not the most important thing I care about now. The biggest thing is that God is the center of the relationship. If God leads me to someone who is not a virgin, but is the right one for me, I'm not going to turn it down just because of his sexual past.

That being said, I think that it is ok for someone to only want to marry a virgin. Thinking about it scientifically and statistically, a person who has had sex before marriage is much more likely to carry STDs (which I think are now being called STIs). I can understand a person's want to only marry someone physically pure given this reason.

However, if someone is using his or her virginity to measure or judge others against, he or she needs to really reevaluate his or her relationship with God.

69. Kelly-1 said the following at 3:42 AM on Jan 8:

Derick (#63) - "Sexual performance, unlike looks, doesn't fade with time"

I disagree; from all reports, people who are older are less interested and less able.

And to your other point - about how do you know BEFORE the wedding? Well, I know that some Christians choose to not even hold hands before the wedding.

However, I am a girl who has kissed, and been kissed, and I feel I can judge passion from that. I can certainly tell when the potential is there to generate a much hotter flame than what we allow ourselves! The *difficulty* in abstaining is what gives me a pretty good indication that yes, we are both interested and capable of further relations.

And as BDB said, we won't be perfect, or even good, the first time, but if we truly love each other, we're committed to the practise.

And if one of the married couple has a disfunction, part of marriage is to *work* together, to help solve the problem, or support the spouse. God asks us to live sacrificially. And in some circumstances, that means sacrificing your own gratification for the sake of your spouse.

It's very different to how the rest of the world views marital relations.

70. Trevor Dolby said the following at 7:00 AM on Jan 8:

Derick (63): There are a few more initial conditions that you don't state, so your reasoning may be perfect without actually leading to a valid conclusion :)

The first seems to be the absence of disease: the idea that mind-blowing sex will keep "burning love stoked for the rest of your lives" is only valid if the sex doesn't stop because one partner has a stroke (for example). What happens then to the "burning love"?

This brings us to the second: what is the level of commitment associated with marriage? Is it acceptable, when your wife has a stroke, to give up on her and find someone else? If not, then marriage without sex is a possiblity; this inverts my previous argument :) and leads to the idea that sex may not, in fact, be as important as it might seem . . .

The third is the existence (or not) of a free-standing "sexual performance" concept. It's not clear that such a beast exists, as I suspect that for many people, enjoyment of sex is linked to the emotional state of a relationship, and even the "best" lovers may not be able to please a partner who is angry for some other reason.

Related to that is the question of selflessness: the idea that someone might not be "interested" because their partner "is so bad at it" ignores the possibility of sex being about the other person enjoying it, not you. Perhaps sex within a marriage is more about the other person?

As you say you're not a Christian, I'm not sure how the you would deal with the above; your views on these things may differ greatly from "God's words" . . .

71. S.M. said the following at 7:59 AM on Jan 8:

To #38:

Right on, brother. Who we used to be doesn't make who we are now. Jesus changes everything.

72. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:43 AM on Jan 8:

Comment 64 is an oversimplification of the issue.

And speaking of issues, what if someone has had such a traumatic experience in their past that he/she literally cannot bring himself/herself to perform sexually and is uncomfortable seeking appropriate professional assistance?

Sometimes prayer just isn't enough, folks.

Now, I'm not saying a person with the above problem should be entirely written off and a potential spouse, but one should know about such complications before marriage, I would think.

73. Tami said the following at 9:21 AM on Jan 8:

Derick, thanks for stopping by. Telling us you are a deist explains a lot about where you're coming from. :)

Here's a question for you: if sex is the most important thing about marriage -- so important that you'd be willing (for the sake of argument) to marry someone unattractive if she's up to par in the bedroom; if you wouldn't marry someone you really like otherwise if she's "poor in bed"; and if you engage in "test drives" to determine all this -- why not just... uh... keep renting cars?

In other words, why bother getting married? (In your opinion)

This is intended to prompt your thinking, so I can hear where you're coming from. I'm genuinely curious how your line of reasoning works. :) Thanks!

74. Kathleen said the following at 9:29 AM on Jan 8:

BDB writes: "Any athlete can tell you that physical performance starts weak and improves with practice."

This comparison doesn't work because not everyone is an athlete, nor is there any guarantee that someone who is a poor performer (at sex, golf, rugby, pantomime, etc.) will necessarily get any better in the future.

Derick is right. If you plan to spend the rest of your life with someone, it's entirely reasonable to make sure you're sexually compatible with each other before you enter into a lifetime contract. Waiting until after you've signed the contract seems foolishly naive to me.

75. anna said the following at 10:18 AM on Jan 8:

Derick, 63

"Consider the following spouses. Morgan is jaw-droppingly good-looking, but terrible at sex. Jamie isn't very good looking, but naturally gives mind-blowing sex exactly the way you like it. One of these two will result in a stronger bond and keep that same initial burning love stoked for the rest of your lives.

Unless my reasoning is totally off somewhere."

I think I'd use a different criteria: how able am I to talk openly to Morgan, compared to Jamie?

Which one listens to me, without getting defensive? Which one is considerate in other ways? How comfortable am I with myself, so I can make my sexual needs and desires known to the other person? What are their views on sex that I need to know way ahead of time (things they know they want that would be unusual, and that might be a dealbreaker for me.)

No one should expect their partner to be a mind reader, or that their sexual needs will remain stagnant over time.

Also, sexual technique is a learned behavior, like any other physical activity. So if Morgan's partner isn't enjoying the sexual aspect of their relationship, then there are other options to fix this besides leaving the other person.

And over the course of a lifetime, sexual compatibility or even technique will wax and wane. What excites the newlyweds will change when there are 4 kids: primary parents do say that they're most attracted to their spouse when the latter's done the laundry or kept the kitchen clean (again, consideration). The aging couple will have different needs than the 20 year olds do. People, and their situations, change. So what Jamie does now with Pat may not be what Pat enjoys later on in the relationship.

So communication is necessary, regardless of a person's views on premarital sex. But communication starts and lives outside of the bedroom, and so it can be assessed independently of physical interaction.

FWIW, I don't believe that people who have premarital sex are being bad. It's not within everyone's value system that sex is reserved for marriage, or that the only licit sexual activity is what is biblically directed. So in this specific area, I don't hold them to a standard they had no desire to meet.

Also, I don't believe that everyone who reads Boundless is Christian, because you can be interested in a topic w/o sharing the views. It only makes sense to assume that all the readers here are literate. ;)

76. Louise from Chicago said the following at 10:26 AM on Jan 8:

Comment 73, I would also like to thank the gentleman for stopping by.

He may be a deist and have opinions with which you disagree but he's a human being and as such he should be treated respectfully.

And as for "why get married" I've expressed the opinion for YEARS on this blog that marriage/family should be optional, but no one on here ever listens.

77. IMO said the following at 10:30 AM on Jan 8:

"Derick is right. If you plan to spend the rest of your life with someone, it's entirely reasonable to make sure you're sexually compatible with each other before you enter into a lifetime contract. Waiting until after you've signed the contract seems foolishly naive to me."

The above comment and Derick's comes from a non-Christian perspective.

None of the (non-Christian) arguments take into account what it means for a Christian to live for Christ and according to God's Word; obedience to God's Word brings blessing.

Christians are called to live to a radically different life. There will never be a good enough argument that can win over God's Word and His Will.

And Kathleen, try to be at least a bit more respectful on this blog. Just asking, not demanding. Waiting until marriage for sex is not foolish. Not in God's eyes and not in the eyes of a bunch of Christians on this site.

78. MrsLarijani said the following at 10:57 AM on Jan 8:

"[someone] who is a poor performer (at sex, golf, rugby, pantomime, etc.) will necessarily get any better in the future."

When one says "for better or for worse", they had better mean it. They are making a vow (whether or not they want to admit it) in front of a holy and just God. It's best to be careful about what you're saying in such circumstances . . .

"one should know about such complications before marriage"

They should. Transparency is key in any relationships. If they can't deal with it, then that is on them. They don't need to hop in bed to figure it out, though. Please see above comment about saying "for better or for worse".

"people who can understand and appreciate the concept DO NOT HAVE HORNS AND HOOVES!"

They may not, but the one they are speaking for does . . .

"Jamie isn't very good looking, but naturally gives mind-blowing sex exactly the way you like it."

I am a newlywed. There is no way that anybody could be as good TO ME (in bed) as my husband is . . . and there was no "test driving" beforehand.

Seriously, people, I know your mind isn't going to change by some on-line debate. I am shocked and saddened that you think this is merely a physical act. Something you can "know" is going to be good 10 years from now by "testing it out" beforehand.

During our pre-marital counseling, Amir & I did spend some time talking about sex. I admitted that I was nervous I would be bad at it. He told me that he was quite sure we would be bad at it, for a little while. However, we would grow and understand each other better in the years to come. He was/is quite certain that sex at year 10 was going to be better than the honeymoon because we would understand each other better.

I don't understand why someone would subject themselves to a "test drive". Sex is sacred. Why would you want to be so vulnerable to someone without a firm commitment from them?

Also, and I'm going to quite frank here, sex can be quite messy. Especially the first time (for females), why oh why do you want to go through that with someone who could drop you because you aren't "good enough"?

One of the questions my husband & I ponder often is "why would someone want to do that on prom night?".

79. Tami said the following at 11:24 AM on Jan 8:

Louise (and Derick, for that matter) -- no disrespect to Derick was intended, at all. I promise. And (though it's hard to tell on the Internet) my statement was entirely sarcasm free -- a deist *will* come from a completely different place as a Christian. It makes way more sense for a deist to say what he did, than for a person claiming to be a Bible-believing Christian to say that. So I appreciate he shared what his viewpoint is.

As I said -- If I thought as he did, I'd say, why bother getting married at all? So I am genuinely curious where he's coming from regarding the marriage question.

80. Louise from Chicago said the following at 11:40 AM on Jan 8:

Comment 78, I take personal exception to your statement that I speak for Satan.

That assertion was completely rude and uncalled for; I will have you know ma'am that I speak for myself and no one else.

And, you think I don't know that "sex is messy?"

I am divorced you know.

And, ma'am if you are "shocked and saddened" by other people's opinions/beliefs, well I don't always care for everything I hear either!

Good luck with your marriage, BTW, ma'am....from what you have stated it does sound like you have good communication with your spouse.

As for being dropped because you're not "good enough", well my exhusband constantly complained I wasn't "good enough" at cleaning the house, cooking meals, indeed at anything, and after a few years I decided I had had enough and that's why I divorced him.

81. Philippa said the following at 11:48 AM on Jan 8:

@ MrsLarijani (78)

Excellent point. :)

One of the questions my husband & I ponder often is "why would someone want to do that on prom night?".

LOL. :D:D:D:D

Well, I'm with all of you who insist on the sacredness of sex. For the Christian, sex is far more than mere 'test driving'. The world's view of sexuality, and the biblical view, are diametrically opposed in this respect. We see sexual union as a spiritual act: the world doesn't.

Having said that, sex is not just spiritual but also earthy, and certainly involves messy realities. Therefore the more a Christian couple know about themselves, their bodies and their desires during marriage preparation, the better, IMO. :)

Just don't make your engagement too long. :D

I have several Christian friends who were virgins when they married and they've all had long and happy marriages. And managed to have a good time on their wedding night, so I was reliably informed. ;) If the earth didn't move the first time, there's always the next time ... ;)

I also have a couple of dear friends who married many years ago and their wedding night was a DISASTER. The husband was totally clueless and the wife, um, suffered as a result. Ouch. They both ended up in tears, and their sex life was a trainwreck for years. They did seek counselling. And they're still with each other, all these years later, and love each other, and have five kids ...

Bad sex needs good therapy: it need not lead to the divorce courts.

82. Louise from Chicago said the following at 12:13 PM on Jan 8:

I appreciate the tone of comment 81.

Imagine explaning your beliefs, worldview, and experiences in a respectful polite manner that does not insult anyone!

83. Louise from Chicago said the following at 12:29 PM on Jan 8:

I would like to modify my comment 72.

I did not intend to criticize anyone's decision to delay sexual activity until marriage.

I was merely explaining my viewpoint.

84. anon said the following at 2:09 PM on Jan 8:

Because we are Christians, my husband and I decided not to 'test drive' each other, but instead married as fairly naive virgins. We have had a mutually satisfying relationship since the wedding night. (I'm trying to be G rated:)

I think it was a lack of sexual experience and baggage that has been of the most benefit to us. No other 'test drives' or 'road trips' :) to cause expectations and preferrences the other is unwilling (or unable) to meet.

85. Daniel B said the following at 5:10 PM on Jan 8:

<< On the other hand, if you think it's more comparable to the ability of a car to keep the passengers safe when the car hits a concrete bridge support at 50mph, then the picture changes >>

Trevor nailed it with that analogy.

<< It appears to be enough of a miracle to get a single, breathing, Christian man interested in me; >>

Jeni, just curious, are you trying? With most of the girls I know personally who make this complaint - I'm not surprised that guys (Christian or otherwise) aren't interested, because the girls are either sending "don't pursue me" signals, or else their attitude towards relationships are like someone praying "Lord, I need money, please give me a job, but I won't submit my resume anywhere, please just have a company call me out of the blue and hire me on the spot!"

86. AmirLarijani said the following at 7:24 PM on Jan 8:

To you folks who believe in "test driving", I have 3 words: GET A CLUE!

Seriously...even from a secular standpoint, "test driving" is a prescription for disaster. It carries far too much downside risk to justify any potential benefit.

One of the concepts that we discussed in the premarital counseling process was the safety of the covenant. I grasped the idea on a mental level before the wedding, but--trust me on this, folks--it is something you REALLY grasp when you're married.

Sex was made to be practiced within the safety of that marriage covenant.

MrsLarijani is absolutely right. This is not the kind of experience you ought to leave to a backseat of a car, or a one-nighter at the Motel 6, or even that special someone to whom you are already engaged but not yet married.

That you may not accept that premise, does not make it any less true.

And Louise...I'm sorry that you were offended, but quite frankly my only disappointment was that my wife beat me to the punch on that one.

I'm sure you don't FEEL like you're on the side of Satan, but then again neither did Saul--who became Paul--when he was on the way to Damascus to help root out Christians. He had to get knocked on his can--blinded, even--before he saw the error of his ways.

People who promote "test driving" or promote some alternate morality, might as well have horns or hooves.

87. Louise from Chicago said the following at 11:27 AM on Jan 9:

Comment 86, please remember sir that I was married...for thirteen years.

I think I am capable to "grasp the concept of the covenant."

I also "have a clue"...more than one in fact!

It's cold here today in Chicagoland...better get a hat out that will cover up my horns!

And I'm glad sir that you are duly proud of your wife's ability to insult people.

Best of luck to both of you.

88. Louise from Chicago said the following at 7:41 AM on Jan 10:

Comment 86, I have re-read my comments on this thread and I honestly don't feel I am trying to "promote" anything.

I am just trying to explain to people whom I KNOW disagree with me why I agree with Derick's viewpoint.

If you think that makes me the devil, so be it...think what you want everybody.

I respect the right of everyone to live his/her life in the manner in which he/she chooses.

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