Looking for a Virgin, Part 2

Looking for a Virgin, Part 2
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 12/29/2009 at 5:03 PM

John Thomas' article on virginity and my blog post bring up a sister issue: What is the proper way for Christians to respond to this issue once it hits a relationship?

One guy I know recounted an incident where a girl he knew heard of her Christian boyfriend's past indiscretions and completely walked away from the relationship. He argued this was wrong. My opinion: She needed to decide if she could deal with it or not. If not, walking away was the right thing to do. There's not a biblical mandate for how to respond in these situations. God gives us a choice.

I believe Christians should always err on the side of grace and forgiveness. However, one must also take into account how someone's past choices may affect a present relationship.

For the person who has not remained a virgin: Keep a loose hand with this issue. Don't let another's lack of acceptance define you. If you have repented, you are 100 percent forgiven. At the same time, don't expect another person to automatically accept your past. (If they are going to have a difficult time getting over it, you probably don't want to be with them anyway.) Realize that one of the natural consequences of your choices may be that some people will not be able to accept the road you have taken. When you find someone special, present your past in a humble way that acknowledges that you understand it may be a deal breaker. Then trust that God will work in both your hearts to bring His will for you about.

For the person who has remained a virgin: Flee from self-righteousness and recognize that God's grace has sustained you. Sure, you may have taken some difficult stands for purity, but you do not know another person's story and the factors that were at play. Realize that if you do not choose to adopt God's gracious heart for the trespasser (which, in truth, is all of us), you may very well miss out on something incredible He has for you. Many godly people in the Bible committed serious indiscretions (David, Noah, Hosea -- commanded by God). Consider the heart of the person now: Are they walking in integrity? Do they have proper accountability? Do they deal with their sin in a godly way? The answers to these questions are often much more important than the person's past.

In response to my blog, one reader wrote: "Let me put it this way. I have been a Christian for less than a year. As such, I'm not a virgin. Am I doomed for the rest of my days to be alone, now?" I would say absolutely not. However, you may experience some consequences of past decisions. And if you encounter a woman who is unwilling to accept your past, show her the grace, humility and honor you would like to be shown. As you align yourself with Christ's heart, you will attract the right kind of person.

Being Single , Dating & Courtship , Marriage & Family | Mail This | Share on Facebook

Comments

You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

1. Keith said the following at 5:23 PM on Dec 29:

Think again of Joseph....

I am sure he probably had serious doubts about Mary's virginity, even after being visited by an angel. None the less he accepted her unconditionally.

Those who can't love and accept others don't realize what it means to be loved and accepted by God. That is pretty sad. The person who can't completely love someone else, sadly, doesn't understand the unconditional love that Jesus has for them.

If you love someone, you love someone, virgin or not. Their offense is against God, not you. Your job is to love them unconditionally.

2. Peter said the following at 6:22 PM on Dec 29:

Suzanne.

Thankyou for what I consider one of the most thoughtful and balanced posts on this subject - granting that an article addressing one particular asp[ect of an issue cannot always appear balanced.

Let us always remember that the choice of a marraige partner is intensely personal, and that none of us have the right to demand that someone marry us.

Thankyou again.... Peter

3. jack said the following at 6:33 PM on Dec 29:

From "Single While Active":

"Not much. In fact, I regularly employ a method of instantaneous judgment. Within minutes of meeting a guy, I've labeled him worthy or unworthy. If he's worthy, I stress over whether he's interested in me; if he's unworthy, I write him off. Instead of opening myself up to get to know the individual and his many facets, I hamper potential friendships by jumping to conclusions."

This is the holy grail of much of the marriage problem.

Too many young people (men and women) have INFINITE faith in their own personal selection criteria.

SO MUCH FAITH in it, that they are quite comfortable instantly assessing the marriage/dating potential of other human beings within minutes.

How Christlike.

I'm going to come off a bit mean here, but truthful. The attitude described in the above quote was shallow with a capital "S".

Not all shallowness is looks-oriented. People can judge shallowly about a person's shyness, lack of status, background, education level, etc.

Additionally, many women enjoy the visceral pleasure of feeling that they are the choosers, and even the Christian ones often enjoy the sense of rejecting an unworthy suitor.

The above quote pretty much proves that.

Much of female-oriented literature contains this element as well. Girl rejects multiple inferior men, girl ultimately gets swept off her feet by White Knight. (Jane Austen)

When women have sex before marriage, they are very often attempting to keep a relationship going that they are afraid will end otherwise.

On the pages of this boundless, even, you see women admit that they put out for a guy to prevent losing him. Any man that does not love you enough to wait until marriage probably loves his lustful needs more than he loves you anyway.

However, it is the shallow and snap-judgment mate selection methods of women that result in much of this premarital sex.

See that quiet guy that you just ruled out as "not your type" in under 30 seconds?

He would wait for marriage for you.

Instead, these young women put themselves in harm's way by hanging around these other men, who eventually wear them down and steal their virginity.

See the connection? It is the snap-judgment selection process that haughty (or foolish) women use that causes a big part of the problem.

Maybe if they could throw a little cold water on their Cinderella fantasies for a bit and date the guys they think they are "too good for", they may actually find value there.

But how unexciting and unromantic is THAT!

Personal growth? Learning to find good in someone? Ugh, ugh, ugh - Princess wants to be swept away by romance...

After all, Christ promised all of us thrilling romance and the satisfaction of fleshly desires.

Go ahead and call me bitter, I'll be glad to wear that title if it helps.

Just be aware, if you call me bitter, I will call you insensitive, that way I won't have to regard your argument either.

4. Kristina said the following at 7:29 PM on Dec 29:

I can't imagine turning a decent, Christian man away just because he has a past with sexual sin. I am a virgin, but I guess living in liberal Southern California, I always knew there was a very low chance that I would/will find a man who doesn't have a past--Christian or not--so I've always accepted the fact that it probably won't happen. If there is deep-rooted sexual sin though, I wouldn't blame a person for being cautious. If a man has turned away from that life, shows a repentant heart, and never once expects or pushes me to have sex, I'm not going to just walk away from him. If God doesn't want him for me, I imagine He'll do the removing anyway. He has always protected me.

5. anna said the following at 8:48 PM on Dec 29:

@ Jack

"See that quiet guy that you just ruled out as "not your type" in under 30 seconds?"

In 30 seconds, I can barely figure out a guy's eye color, much less his marriage quality, lol.

@ Peter, I agree w/you here and on what you said in the first post about virginity.

I really liked this:

"And if you encounter [a woman] who is unwilling to accept your past, show her the grace, humility and honor you would like to be shown. As you align yourself with Christ's heart, you will attract the right kind of person."

6. Julie said the following at 9:12 PM on Dec 29:

Jack, I think that unfortunately, much of what you say is true. I will be giving my daughter much more guidance about what to look for in a potential mate than I was given. Because many of the men who women find themselves to be very attracted to quite quickly, are not the best bets for the long-term. This is worse for some women than others--I had friends who had a radar for great godly guys of character at a young age. I think it was also worse for me because I'm a child of divorce and had no good marriage model to follow. More than one of my ex-boyfriends is now divorced. These were Christian guys I pined for and who broke my heart. This is one reason I'm not on board with the "marry early" message. For so many people, that would not be wise idea.

Women should definitely give more men a chance--it's not a big deal to go out for coffee with someone even if you don't think he's your type at first.

7. Sylvia said the following at 10:09 PM on Dec 29:

Jack #3
A lot of girls are like this, but a heck of a lot of them are not. Are you sure that there are not women that you are overlooking because you are distracted by these haughty, yet beautiful females who live, and dress, for excitement and drama? Lecherous men can catch an unfair share of attention, but certainly so can haughty princesses, women who are just plain mean and nasty, but absolutely gorgeous.
Ok, just checking, as long as you're sure.

8. Katrece said the following at 10:11 PM on Dec 29:

#3 I read your post and inwardly said "ouch." I agree that many women and men put too much emphasis on "shallow" attributes. I don't consider you "bitter" but I perceived an incredible amount of cynicism, much of it probably warranted, as I read your post.

A few times I've done a quick mental survey of a guy and written him off based on my quick summations. However, I think I can quickly assess and rightfully write off some guys based on a few conversations. A year ago, a guy was interested in me. He goes to church twice a week, is a successful businessman, and looks like a model. When discussing each of our personal relationships with Christ it was easy to detect a difference. His idea of spending time in the word consisted of reading a Proverb a day; that is literally what he said. My relationship with Christ is the most important thing to me. I study God's word daily and invest in more than a surface-level relationship with Christ. I want to marry someone who is going to be a spiritual leader.

I'm not looking for a white knight to sweep me off my feet. Physical attraction is important (and I take that into consideration) but not as important as spiritual maturity. I don't think I'm "above" other people; as long as I'm on this earth I will continue to grow spiritually and be changed more into Christ's image. I don't read a lot of books similar to Jane Austen's. Dr. Neil Clark Warren, Kevin Leman and Dr. Dobson deal with much more important and realistic matters.

9. DEH said the following at 11:26 PM on Dec 29:

Something that I haven't noticed anyone mentioning yet, but that seems totally applicable to this discussion, is STDs.

Some STDs are incurable. Some can lead to cancer. Some cause irreversible infertility problems. These are not minor concerns in my mind. I wouldn't fault a woman who walks away from a man with a sexual past for this reason. All sin has consequences. Even sin that's been forgiven. (See the example of King David.)

I kind of see this as similar to being in a relationship with someone who has excessive debt, even if they've repented and changed their financial habits. The debt is still there and still needs to be repaid, and some people just don't want to deal with that.

If a person is able to deal with the issue of STDs and is ready to handle the potential fallout that is the natural consequence of having premarital sex, then I say good for that person.

Personally, I'm not sure I could do it.

10. Brad said the following at 1:11 AM on Dec 30:

I've met Christian women who refused to date someone whose parents were divorced because of the family issues that they might bring into the marriage, and the fact that most of the time such men end up being raised by their mothers and often, but not always, don't have a solid man around as a childhood example. While it is a separate issue, I think it proves a point that people often get way too picky about things about another person's life that are really out of their control.

The Christian doesn't have much control over the things they did when they were unregenerate. Truly, the difference between being born again and not born again is that significant. You are a slave to an entirely different master when you were unregenerate than you do as a follower of Christ.

While it would be nice to marry a fellow "virgin," (in the technical sense - I would not begin to boast of sexual purity in thought and deed overall) I would far and away rather marry a woman who had sex as a nonbeliever who is passionately in love with Jesus now than a woman who has been "sexually pure" all her life whose love for Jesus is routine and lukewarm at best.

11. jack said the following at 1:34 AM on Dec 30:

Katrece-

Your approach sounds reasonable to me.

And rejection/caution based on spiritual considerations seems completely reasonable.

I'm talking about girls who make the not-my-type snap judgment.

Example:
I recently had a discussion with a female friend who is 5'3".

She only wants very tall guys. When I asked her why, her response was that she was insecure about her stockier athletic build and being next to a tall guy made her feel more feminine.

So essentially, finding Mr. Tall Dark and Handsome would mean that she could rationalize away her unhappiness over her appearance.

I see.

What can I say? I felt a deep burning sense of shame and inadequacy.
Only tall men (read: Real Men) need apply. I'm just a piece of garbage, the rest of my accomplishments and qualities rinsed away by my utter failure to be tall.

Even though I am three inches taller than her.

The ugliness of her shallow insecurity stripped away any attraction I might have had for her. She went from cute to dog-ugly in seconds.

-------------------------------------

Sylvia-

As you can see by my rant, I was not pursuing beauty queens. I have a very wide window of what I consider attractive, and as long as a girl is normal looking, I care more about attitude and intelligence.

But, I am beginning to think that I should pursue hotties. As long as I am going to be shot down, I may as well be shot down by the hot ones.

12. Emily said the following at 5:47 AM on Dec 30:

Jack #3 - ouch. ouch ouch ouch. I read your reply and my stomach twisted up.

Partially because it's so true.

yes, that's why I gave myself away. Twice. Because I was too afraid to lose the man I was with.

Was I foolish? Yes. Did I have cinderella fantasies? Yes. Did I do it even after I became a Christian? Yes.

But please, please, please. Don't hold that against women like me.

I wasn't standing on my foolishness and my horrible decisions like a prideful king lording out to whom I would give myself away from, while thinking "You know what, there's probably a wonderful man out there willing to wait for me."

I was desperately clinging to the only thing I knew, thinking "Man, if I don't do this, he'll leave me! And if he leaves me, I'll be alone for the rest of my life because I'm worthless and nothing and I'm lucky he's with me."

And I think it's that kind of thinking that many women fall into.

I don't know what to say to the rest of your post. But that's all I can say.

I know i have made bad choices. And I will deal with those choices for the rest of my life. And all I can do is pray that God will provide me with a mate who can look past what I've done.

13. BI said the following at 6:18 AM on Dec 30:

Jack, 3:

In my opinion, you hit the problem correctly – namely, shallowness. However, the greater problem is the shallowness of the Christian culture as a whole. I specifically address the shallowness of the Christian leaders, the ones who are supposed to teach the young and the rest of us. The leaders, the elders, the managers and the pastors are supposed to encourage us to seek deeper spiritual growth and teach us first by showing us their own personal example. However, when the leaders in the church have fallen prey themselves to the secular culture’s call for shallowness, how do we expect young people to be any different and behave more maturely? They have to be extra smart to do that, and then they find all kinds of opposition from the leaders who do not like to change themselves. The reason for this is that the leaders care much more about their titles as that is where they put their value in first and not in Jesus.

In the secular culture, people compete with one another and the ones who outperform the others get the top prize. This means that some people are little higher in the social hierarchy, and ideally, they have earned it. Hence, a person who has a Ph.D. will look down on those who do not have a Ph.D.; a person who has a lot of money and power will look down on everyone who has less money and power; and in general, people who are higher in the social hierarchy will tend to look down on people who are lower than them, sometimes with much contempt and scorn. Think about the implications of this to people’s self-worth – if they or their families are higher in the hierarchy, they will feel much prideful; however, if they are at or near the bottom as most people are, they will feel jealous and resentful and not very happy about themselves and their own personal value. (Jesus sought to overturn exactly this kind of secular worldview and mentality as he disregarded people’s age, status, money and power, and separated people only in two categories: the ones belonging to God’s kingdom and the ones not belonging to God’s kingdom.) When you apply this mindset to marriage, people will want to get the best prize – the greatest looks, the greatest romance, the wealthiest, the most powerful, the most educated, etc. If your heart is focused first on all these things, how are you going to find Jesus, including in your marriage and in your future spouse?

The Christian culture has brought up leaders who are more like despots and who claim authoritarian power on the basis of flawed (secular) value system. Respect should be earned and not given. Spiritual growth and wisdom is not earned with Ph.D.s or money or other kind of titles, but is given by Jesus himself to the ones who are willing to give up everything and follow him. Jesus’ apostles and disciples had to leave their professions, their families, their possessions, everything in order to follow him, but are we willing to do the same when Jesus calls us? Are our hearts pure enough to know who should come first before all the titles and possessions that we have? Especially when we relate with other people and other believers, does having a doctorate in theology mean that one should look down on others and treat them despotically or does it mean that one should serve them like Jesus and be a servant to them? Think about it what does it mean to have a doctorate in theology, i.e. in Jesus? Does it mean to wear oneself pridefully around and boosting one’s own ego by stepping on and controlling other people’s lives, or does it mean to be more like Jesus and grow more in spiritual wisdom that will enable one to be a more responsible and a more caring leader? We focus so much on the outside and the performance that we should not forget what is really important – the heart of the person and his/her relationship with Jesus.

Everyone has unique talents and one can either enhance and develop these talents or subdue them. However, one cannot be taught to sing like Michael Jackson or play like Michael Jordan or speak like Billy Graham – these are all special gifts and talents. Similarly, every believer has its own unique talents and gifts, and the church leadership can either enhance them by recognizing them or subdue them by ignoring them and focusing on the pursuit of developing other worldly and material values. When the church leadership strives to enhance the spiritual talents and gifts of the believers, these believers grow and mature in their faith and in their service to Jesus and others, and eventually everyone in the church benefits from their gifts and talents. Hence, the kingdom of God on earth is enhanced – it thrives and it grows. However, when the church leadership disregards these individual talents and gifts, the church and its members do not grow in spiritual wisdom and they find value only in reputation, money, power and all kinds of numbers such as church attendance. Yes, the church may grow in number like a big social club, may grow in wealth and power, but is this really important if the church is missing the most important thing – Jesus and the spiritual gifts and talents that he has given to each one of us?

Not to mention the gift of prophecy which is most highly esteemed in the Bible, but people sneered at me and I was named and labeled an atheist by certain religious leaders because I have this gift. Then, they kicked me out and gossiped to everyone that I was so and so in order to justify why they completely ignored my warnings. But the Lord knows my heart and weighs their hearts and when the time comes, He will strike them down because they did not listen to the words of God. They simply do not care anymore about such gifts – age, titles, money, status, power, and other worldly values seem so much more important to Christian leaders today.

14. Leigh said the following at 6:28 AM on Dec 30:

I always always always thought I would hold on to my virginity. I was proud to tell others that I would wait until marrige. When I was 20 years old I had an experience that changed everything. I was VP of the outdoor adventure club at my college. The teacher that was "over" the OAC wanted to take us on a "special" trip. Just for the President and VP (for all of our hard work that year) We went on a 3 day canoe trip down a remote river in florida. While camping on the first night (We will call him J) J sent the other guy to look for wood. While he was gone J turned very sexualy agressive and touched me in bad physcialy painful ways. I think he was about to rape me when the other guy came back. For 3 days I went down the River with this man, it was my only option to get out of the woods. Besides I think he would have hurt me if I tried to run. I will spare you all the tramatic details of the rest of that trip. But in the months to follow I decided just to give up my virginity. It wasn't important anyway. I felt dirty. And I had sex 3 times with a new boyfriend. The 1st time right before, I changed my mind. But he rolled his eyes and head back and complained, so I said ok. I hate it that I can't claim that title anymore. I somtimes think that Im not worthy of a good Christian guy because of what I did. Anyway..

Hope everyone had a good Christmas!

Leigh

15. Olivia said the following at 8:02 AM on Dec 30:

The truth of the matter is that we are ALL sinners - whether we are virgins or not. If God could forgive us our sins, if He could come to earth and take on a human body, only to die in place of us, then why can't we forgive each other? When we are looking for a spouse we think of what that person can do for us yet God calls marriage to be a mirror image of Jesus and the church: selfless. If God forgave me of my sins, I can extend that forgiveness to my spouse and rather than tearing him down, I can build him up in Christ.

Every sin issue is a heart issue. If that person who was once sexually active has not repented, then eventually it will be out in the open for you to see and a decision can be made as to whether you stay or go. A repented life is a fruitful life - no repentance, no fruit.

David, who sinned numerous times, never sinned in the same way twice. The woman who was almost stoned was spared by Jesus and instead of condemning her told her to sin no more. The prodigal son who went his own way was received with open arms by his father and a great feast was held in honor of his return. Because of the fall of man, we are naturally inclined to rebel and shake our fists at God. I wonder how God's heart must swell with joy when those who have sinned against Him turn from their wicked ways and humbly return back to Him.

Whether we've sinned after our acceptance of Christ or before, God's arm is not so short that He can pluck us out and when we are tempted, He provides a way out. I'm in agreement that we should extend the same grace so freely given to us to those who we are hoping to love and commit to for the rest of our lives. We cannot sit in judgement of others because we are not naturally just. Only God can look into our hearts and see what we and other cannot. In all things, we need to depend on the Holy Spirit for guidance and confirmation when it comes to all decisions great or small including our spouses.

16. DannieA said the following at 8:13 AM on Dec 30:

Kristina,

as a socal resident myself....have you ever been to the east coast? it makes socal look like the Bible belt. I don't know where you live, but in my city I could throw a rock in any direction and hit a church. The thing with CA is, there are so many types of people there, it keeps balance so while there are pockets of liberalism, there are also other areas that counteract...(ahem prop 8)

17. Janelle said the following at 8:51 AM on Dec 30:

Would it be nice to marry a virgin man, yes. Would I turn down a great man because he is not a virgin, no. But my biggest concern with marrying a non-virgin man, would be is he comparing me with women in his past. Also will the fact that I'm virgin and have no experience be a problem?

18. Sylvia said the following at 8:58 AM on Dec 30:

#11
You should.

19. Keb said the following at 9:24 AM on Dec 30:

A question I have that relates to this: How, and when, does one bring up the issue of sexual purity in a relationship? Given that our secular society and even a large portion of Christians assume that sex will be part of a relationship early on, what is the most graceful way to make it clear that our relationships must be different? I know for a fact that in my few and short-lived relationships, I haven't handled it very well. My failure to make it clear early on in my last relationship probably resulted in a lot more heartbreak than if it had been otherwise (he clearly wanted a very physical relationship, which put the burden entirely on me to be the brakes--and the breakup was painful for us both).

20. EKB said the following at 9:41 AM on Dec 30:

I think a lot of the judgement here is a symptom of a deeper problem: the way Christians talk about abstinence. Despite well-intentioned youth leaders and in some places even governmental support, this movement is failing miserably. Growing up, I can't count the number of times I heard catch phrases like "I'm saving myself for my husband." I think that is the completely wrong attitude for two reasons.

1. It gives an attitude of entitlement, with the assumption that God will give you a husband (or wife). The Bible never promises this, and some are actually called to celibacy.

2. While remaining pure for your spouse is a noble and good thing, it pales in comparison to the fact that we should remain pure for God. This entails much more than just virginity, and I would venture that nearly all Christians fall short here.

What would happen if we started talking about chastity (which is for all Christians, married and single) rather than just abstinence? This goes so far beyond the "how far is too far" type mentality that abstinence education tends to fall into, and instead focuses on devotion to God.

21. jayme said the following at 9:48 AM on Dec 30:

It's a hard one. What if the issue isn't virginity, but something else? What if the issue was a former addiction to shopping? A gal had this and racked up $10,000 in debt. She's a changed person. Her sin of shopping wasn't against you. But she still has $10K in debt that you'll have to take on should you marry her.

Is it the end of the world? No. But does sin have consequences? Yes. It would be great if you could accept her and love her the way Christ loves the Church, but the fact is that you don't have to. You can choose to accept the romantic relationship or walk away.

22. jayme said the following at 9:52 AM on Dec 30:

Sorry -- I didn't see DEH's comments when I posted. He/She said it better than I did!

23. Elaine said the following at 9:55 AM on Dec 30:

If a person cannot marry someone who is a virgin well that is that person’s preference. It is better that person does not marry that person that spend a hard time forgiving that persons and is unprepared to learn to trust that person and I respect that.

Anonymous Two, I agree with you 100 percent in part one of the article.

To me this was different from someone who was a Christian all their lives is having sex.. I heard young men stand up in church and said that they will not marry a woman who is a virgin. Having sex with her before will guarantee that they will not marry a woman who is not sexual dysfunctional or is a Eunuch and frigid. I will have a hard time trusting such a man as I will believe he is using sexual dysfunction to let a girl feel insecure and have sex. I believe they are set out to use woman and I will personally warned young ladies that has expressed interest in dating such a men as that they are womanizers.

When I got marry I was 34 and a virgin and my husband at 38 weren’t. However that was the life he lived before he became a Christian and since he came to Christ over 8 years before he remained faithful to God. What I admired is his relationship to God, his helpful in household chores, his honesty, kindness and truthiness to me. We were in our thirties; our relationship was not the first for us. Not all the times, we were intentional; we spent more time in some relationships than we should. Call some persons more than we should. Although we didn’t marry in our early twenties as was admired and celebrated by the church. Our long dating experiences as taught us about ourselves, the difference between male and females and about relationship. I thank God each day for bringing him in my live.

Being a Virgin until marriage is not easy for Christian males and female today. However, you are being faithful to God who loves you and care for you. He will give you the strength to remain faithful and continue to ask him to help you as you reach your late twenties and moved into your thirties. It becomes harder as you worry about if you will ever marry and have children. At times you might be tempted to give up just being a mother. Be faithful to God who will reward you for your faithfulness. You might never marry in your lifetime but you have remained faithful to God.

At times the church is not kind to singles in their late twenties and thirties. All types of remarks are made about you why you are still single but trust God; he is still on your side. While some folks in my home church make fun of me because I was single and virgin. My husband was not from my home church but the same denomination church that is located 25 miles away. He took me in my inexperience and showered me with his love. When I got pregnant three months after our wedding. Some persons from my home church were surprised as they thought, I was a Eunuch. I never focus on that but on God’s love and care for me.

24. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:14 AM on Dec 30:

Elaine (#23) said:

"I heard young men stand up in church and said that they will not marry a woman who is a virgin."

That has got to be one of the most skewed and incorherent reasoning I have heard in a long time regarding any Christian ethos. Honestly, that man should've been publically chastised or at least someone should've stood up and immediately refuted that.

25. Amy said the following at 10:21 AM on Dec 30:

#14 Leigh,

I sympathize with your pain. I too thought I would remain faithful until marriage and have punished myself for not, but we have to remember that we are forgiven. If we seek Him, He won't forsake us. He will provide a Godly man for you, who will accept you and love you.

26. twilley said the following at 11:35 AM on Dec 30:

Leigh, #14:

Your comment touched me--it sounds like you had a really rough time on that trip and a scary experience.

Have you talked much about it since? It sounds like it really affected the way you think about sex and relationships--and that you feel bad about it and the way you handled yourself after it. If not, maybe it would be good to get some support and find some people to talk to about it. I've never had an experience like that, but I would be pretty angry if someone treated me in that way.

I hope you find a way to deal with your sexuality that feels healthy and not pressured... one that fulfills your needs and helps you feel right with God. I'll pray for you.

27. Lisa said the following at 12:13 PM on Dec 30:

Bl, #13

Amen, Amen, and Amen!!!

28. em said the following at 12:27 PM on Dec 30:

Suzanne, excellent post!

#3, Jack,

I think you are correct in your description of many immature Christian young women. We aren't all like that but some are self-impressed and unkind.

I won't call you bitter because I often struggled with similar feelings in reverse (as in: "no Christian guy will want me because I'm too bold, too strong, too successful, too educated, too thoughtful, too whatever..." and "they prefer sweet, dainty, quiet, demure girls").

and, perhaps I was right about many Christian guys - or many Christian guys in my circle... Likewise, you may be right about many of the girls you know.

I'm afraid anything I will say will be a trite Christian platitude to you, but in my case, averages weren't where the truth was at - God brought me a guy who seemed different to me, even if my first impression of 'different' was that he had the guts to ask me out.

God does the improbable and sometimes even the impossible. I can identify with where you are at - truly - and I don't know what the Lord has for you but don't assume that every girl is like the ones you describe. I'm glad I didn't assume my fiancee was like what I'd come to expect from other believing single guys. :-)

BTW, I never was a little princess type and I wasn't one for romantic fantasies. I even thought most guys wanted "princess" girls. But if so, there are happy exceptions. My fiancee likes "chick fliks" better than I do. We both like action / adventure movies. He hunts and we both butcher. Works for us.

29. jack said the following at 12:34 PM on Dec 30:

Emily-

You have brought up a point that is key to my issue: The concept of pure/not pure, and having a future spouse accept another person.

We are all EQUALLY impure before God and each other.

Let's cover this again:

He who is guilty of one sin is guilty of all. If to lust with the eyes is equivalent to adultery, well, then I've had lots of women in my time.

My difficulty in marrying a non-virgin is NOT NOT NOT a sense of being "too good for her".

I don't feel superior to a non-virgin girl. I feel inferior to her. I feel rejected.

It is very heartbreaking to spend years trying to do right by women, only to have them cast me aside in favor of the guy who gives them swooning Cinderella-fantasy butterflies, only to use them and lose them.

The damage that has done to my self image is probably unrepairable, which is why I'm warning people now. I used to be a sweet nice Christian guy - now I'm really becoming jerk.

Sometimes I think about caving to the world's system and start sleeping around. I have lots of options if I want to do that. Then, I would be in the same boat as everyone else. Maybe in the end, I would be better off. The key reason I don't think I can do this is because I would be using the woman, even if she was okay with that.

30. Brittany said the following at 2:16 PM on Dec 30:

Hello Keb (19)!

I am a 24 year old woman with a sexual past and this is something I've given some thought to as well. I was watching "Tough Love" on VH1 the other day (I know, I know...but I love relational psychology!) which is a 'bootcamp' show where a group of young women receive 'relationship coaching'. A lot of these women have major issues that are preventing them from having healthy relationships/attracting men, etc...and one thing that really struck me is when the matchmaker on the show (Steve Ward) discussed when and how to disclose certain 'need to know' information to your potential suitor. From what I could gather (I only saw the second half of the episode), that point is when you have had a few dates and are getting to the more serious/steady part of the relationship. Some of the info that these women disclosed was having children and things like that.

I think this is wise because it gives either person a choice to get out of the relationship without being really deeply attached to each other...because sometimes these things will be deal breakers. I agree with this advice because this is how I have done things in the past and it always worked out fine.

I'm not an advocate of the show however, I think he has some useful and practical dating tips. So many people tell people our age to 'go with the flow' and 'don't think about it so much'. I wish I could stop! I suppose it's the generation that we are in.

Anyway, I hope this helps!

31. Robert Hall said the following at 3:01 PM on Dec 30:

One thing is for sure, this issue has finally got men and women being honest about relationships.

I find it fascinating that some believe if they marry virgins there will be no issues to overcome in marriage. I have to assume that from the comments about how hard it is to forgive someone for their past (to be frank, that sounds a little god-like to me).

But the truth is there are men and women out there who are giving the rest of us a bad name, virgin or not.

So perhaps we should reconsider how we view each other and why we seek to live a Christian life. Is it for God's glory or for our own?

We shouldn't feel like such big shots that someone has to impress us but at the same time we shouldn't feel lowly before the opposite sex either.

Guys, you are not validated by a woman's opinion of you, you are validated by God and what HE calls masculine.

Ladies, only your creator can make you feel pretty like a princess. Why? Because HE created you! And what does God say true beauty is? A quiet, gentle spirit. You are beautiful inside and out because your creator, the LORD says so.

Keep these truths in mind as you look for a spouse. Let's view each other in those terms and respect each other and ourselves in the light of that truth.

32. Andrea-Elena said the following at 3:19 PM on Dec 30:

Jack,

It's tough not being what the majority would deem a hottie. I know that frustration. I've never garnered a huge following from guys. In fact, I've gone through seasons of wondering what on earth they saw in me since I wasn't a hottie. I guess you just never know what trips someone's trigger. ;o)

But... I've had to keep telling myself the truth --- my worth isn't to be found in what others think of me. God tells me my worth. Wait -- He already showed me. And yes, I know it sounds and feels, often (way, way too often), like a platitude. But if it weren't a rock-solid truth, then what would I, would we, have to hang on to?

I hear ya -- if lusting is tantamount to actual sex, I'm as guilty as the next person. Good gracious... And it sure is easy to yearn after, drool over, the ones you know you could never have (and even the ones you shouldn't have -- cause they're dating someone or are married). There's little risk -- except the consequences of sin and the wear and tear on one's heart. It's so easy to live in one's head. Sometimes it feels safer. (But really isn't.)

So... even if some people have deemed you and me and some others "unworthy of having sex with" (there's a foul term for it), does that mean that that judgment is the truth? And does it even accurately depict God's design and vision for sex? Good heavens, no, no, NO!!!

Call me an idealist, but I want to believe that sex is more than what the world makes it to be. And that marriage is far more than sex. And I believe that the Word reveals that God's heart, intention, design, and vision for marriage is way, way, way more than what the world implies about relationships -- that the little-girl dreams of romance are just a mere shadow, a type, of what God made for us and made us for; that He can reshape my dreams into worthy ideals that align to His plumbline, not the world's.

I am looking for a man who will not keep giving in to and feeding his pessimism; I am battling my own pessimism, and I don't desire to pass it on to our children. That man I would marry would be one I'd heartily join in the "fight" against complacency about what marriage is to be and strive to really live up to God's plan, to truly live out a Christ-centered life together, to be a mini representation of the Kingdom.

So... the challenge is this: who are we looking to in order to find out who we are and what we are worth? Are we going to stay trapped in the cage of lies that others' tacit rejection of us tells us who we are and what we're worth? Or are we going to believe God, really believe Him?

33. Mel said the following at 3:22 PM on Dec 30:

>>recognize that God's grace has sustained you<<

Amen, my sister! I have remained a virgin not by any heroic strength of my own, but purely by the grace of God.

As for selecting a life partner, I believe we are all entitled to choose with full knowledge of what we can and can't live without. For me, it's financial responsibility. Does this mean I don't love my brothers who struggle in that area? Not at all; it just means I can't commit my life to that man. Everyone has a line in the sand: for some it's drinking, for some it's divorced parents, and yes, for some it's sexual purity.

34. BI said the following at 3:27 PM on Dec 30:

jack, 29

Why are you becoming so enticed by this world’s ways? Why don’t you be this kind of a radical Christian leader who will teach others, both single women and men, how to seek a godly spouse with a godly character while remaining pure before marriage? Instead of desiring sin which leads only to death, please do not give up on holding on your faith and desiring only that which is holy and pure. I do not understand how you can desire to be with a woman who does not have the Spirit of God in her – this is like bathing with the pigs in their vomit. All these arguments about a person’s virginity seem quite preposterous to me, as the most important thing is God’s Spirit inside the human heart. Obviously, the women who have disregarded you and ended up being used up by others, were not mature and wise enough so why do you regret not being with them? If you love someone truly, you will be hurt when she gets hurt and you will cry when she cries and you will not be regretting the fact that you did not use her and take advantage of her like some other guy did.

Hence, if you love your brothers and sisters, you will help them and lead them to Jesus’ love; you will care for them and forgive them because sin hurts and its pleasure leads only to death. I do not see why one can be envious of other people’s sins and mistakes instead of feeling sorry for them. You should be an example to others of how to keep away from ungodly people who only want to use their bodies for pleasure. Take comfort, the older you get, the more desirable you become by all kinds of women – young and old, so why do you bother so much when unlike women age is not an issue for men (ladies, please forgive my honesty)? I am sure eventually you will find your mate if you just wait long enough.

35. Trevor Dolby said the following at 3:50 PM on Dec 30:

Keith (1): Thinking of Joseph would remind us that he was visited by an angel who said "do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife" without saying anything like "you were wrong to think of divorcing her quietly". Joseph's original reaction wasn't wrong - God just happened to have other plans in that particular case. Hardly a normative experience . . .

Of course, if you _are_ visited by an angel who tells you to marry someone, then you must do it and love them unconditionally as you say (I am not joking about this; I believe this could happen to any of us). For those who are not visited by such apparitions, then the choice is theirs; they are not necessarily "self-righteous" if they choose not to marry a non-virgin.

36. Trevor Dolby said the following at 3:51 PM on Dec 30:

Janelle (17): No, it's unlikely to be a problem for him; a guy who wants to marry you will not mind at all (and will probably be quite pleased) that you have no experience :) The ones who would mind are those who aren't going to marry you anyway . . .

37. Trevor Dolby said the following at 3:52 PM on Dec 30:

Mike (24): Well said! Excommunication was created for such as these, I suspect.

38. Lola said the following at 4:14 PM on Dec 30:

Suzanne,

It is unnecessary to resort to name-calling. I urge you instead to take some time to congratulate those that have allowed God's grace to influence them in remaining sexually pure because God's grace is available to all and not only to those that have saved themselves for marriage.

39. Anonymous TWO/Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 5:29 PM on Dec 30:

Thanks Suzanne for referencing self-righteousness in your article. As one who has been in a number of men's "purity" groups, I can attest that there is an almost disgusting lack of humility and thankfulness from some (not all, but some) guys in these groups who seem to get their act together, so to speak, pretty quickly, and then become self-righteous and judgemental towards those who struggle more.

One day I hope to help other men find purity and hope in their lives, but more importantly I hope to be humble and loving towards those who struggle.

Jack post #3: I can relate to you in that I felt at times like I was living under imposed celibacy in my 20s and 30s, but for me it was due to having a low self-image, impurity, and I hate to say it, but bad "advice" from the church on being single. I spent pretty much all of my 20s and half of my 30s believeing that I had to find some kind of unique level of contentment before I could be "given" a wife by God. Unfortunately some people in the church seem to kind of perpetuate this belief that it is a sin to make an effort to actively look for a spouse. And this is the ONLY point in which I will agree with the so-called marriage mandaters - it is not a sin to want and search for a spouse, and it is not a sin to make an effort in said search - everything else they (marriage mandaters) say is a waste of your time and my time.

I can also attest from attending my 20th High School reunion that I too saw how some women who weren't available to me in my 20s (including one gal who was a cheerleader), suddenly saw interest in me 20 years later (BTW, the cheerleader gal was fairly inebriated and dressed kind of trashy)!

I read lots of pain and anger in your posts, and I for one will NOT judge you for speaking what is on your mind! Please don't give up your desire to have a wife (yes, sexual desire will decrease in your late 30s to 40s, but there is no law in the Bible that says you have to give up your hope to have a wife). Marriage is a GOOD thing, and it is a gift from God, and unfortunately we SINFUL humans find sick ways of messing around with each other's minds and hearts in the area of love, attraction, and marriage. I am for you and God is FOR you Jack!!!! I will also personally see to it that, if for some strange way we were to meet and someone in the church was to abuse you verbally and emotionally with talk of "why don't you just give up because you are too old to marry" - I will personally get into that person's face. I have done it before, and I will do it again! I too struggled mightily as a single and I don't want to see you go through what I went through! God bless you Jack!

40. Latispatha said the following at 5:32 PM on Dec 30:

The reality is, unfortunately, that being a virgin is a liability both inside and outside the church today.

In our culture - again, both inside and outside the church in the U.S. - taking a stand against premarital sex probably puts you at a greater risk of never getting married. Virgins receive very little valuable understanding and support in the church, expecially as they get older into their 30s. More often, like in this blog, they are warned against "self-righteousness." Very few virgins I know of are self-righteous, but they are suffering having to make it through life on their own with no partner, while those who have not taken this difficult road are given much leeway under the guise of grace and forgiveness.

(It's important to note that Christians historically aren't the only ones to place a value on virginity - it's not just a biblical standard. Many pagan cultures have done the same. And at times in history, the expectation for women to remain virgins and then chaste wives has cost them - sometimes it led to a more dismal life, while courtesans led freer lives and received better educational opportunities, experiencing, oddly, less abuse).

Also, a note on imperfect characters mentioned in scripture. King David, mentioned in this blog as one of the heroes of our Judeo-Christian faith, was indeed loved by God. But he was a lousy husband - lousy to women in general. That never changed - he never could be considered a man that any sane, self-respecting woman really would want to be with. She would just have been added to his harem. It's quite clear that David never genuinely or selflessly loved any one woman.

So, a person may truly be a genuine Christian, and even a great person as a friend. But the reality is, someone's sexual past can indeed put them in the position of being a poor choice for a spouse.

And if we are honest with ourselves as Christians, we cannot tell ourselves nor anyone else that we/they will reap much benefit from remaining a virgin. If one chooses to remain faithful to God on this issue - in this day and age - they are going to have to accept that this choice is likely to cost them. Following Christ is indeed a matter of picking up one's cross, after all.

41. rachel said the following at 5:41 PM on Dec 30:

Jack, if God brings you into a marriage with a godly woman who has repented of her past sins, forgiving her and loving her could be a very beautiful picture to her and you of Christ's love and laying down of his life for the church. I promise you, the "lovers" in her past never offered her that kind of genuine love. That would be a glorious first.

Sex shared between husband and wife in a godly marriage is so important, but it's only one part of the larger work of intimacy. I may not be my husband's "first", but I'm his first without shame, first in love and security and grace. Forgiving and embracing our spouses despite/because of their sexual brokenness can be one more thing that helps to bind us together in the shelter of each other.

42. Not my real name said the following at 6:12 PM on Dec 30:

I've read all these blogs with interest. I was an "everything but" girl..which comes with its on issues, also consistent with my other committment issues. I married a man who had a pretty extensive sexual past, including an affair with a married woman.
Grace to both of us was what God gave. I remember my husband (when we were dating) telling me about the affair. I remember saying that wasn't who he was now, and I assumed that the only married woman he would be with in the future was his wife (which turned out to be me).
It's not been a huge source of stress for us (which kind of contradicts some others experiences here). It's gone. when it does come up, we discuss it. Then move on.
So, choose wisely, sexual purity is a component of the relationship, not all of it.

43. Anonymous TWO/Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 7:42 PM on Dec 30:

Jack, RE: my post number 39, I was referencing some things you mentioned in another Boundless blog, I believe it was "Single While Active." I am now engaged, Jack, to a woman, who not only is not a virgin, but who was married. And for the benefit of those whose feathers I just ruffled by mentioning she is divorced, the man she was married to cheated on her, physically, mentally, and emotionally abused her, and then dropped her off at her parents and HE disappeared. I guess he wanted to "maintain his witness" by not committing the sin of divorce, so he forced her to initiate the divorce. But hey, you know he abused her and mistrated her and cheated on her, but he really would've messed up if HE had divorced her....

Oh and by the way, her BAPTIST church blamed HER for the marriage breakup. UGH is the ONLY acceptable response here.

Anyways, I want you to know Jack that this wonderful woman I am CHOOSING to marry is a blessing to me. She has gone through some divorce healing classes, and has forgiven her ex. And she isn't angry. I accept her for WHO SHE is and because I find her very desireable and attractive! She is a wonderful woman, really loves our Lord.

I just want to encourage you again Jack that there is hope to find decent women out there despite their past, and the same goes for women looking for a decent man.

44. jack said the following at 8:11 PM on Dec 30:

Andrea-Elena

Very well stated.

Dan - thanks for the input.

45. Andrea-Elena said the following at 8:59 PM on Dec 30:

Jack,

Thanks. =) Hope it helps a bit. Or a lot! =D

(I myself need to read it again and again. Easy to type the truth; much harder to really walk it out.)

46. Tami said the following at 9:33 PM on Dec 30:

Dan L (43) I commend your fiancee for her Christlike attitude. May you be blessed together.

47. BDB said the following at 9:41 PM on Dec 30:

jack (#3) wrote:

>>Much of female-oriented literature contains this element as well. Girl rejects multiple inferior men, girl ultimately gets swept off her feet by White Knight. (Jane Austen)<<

Ummm...no, not really. The women in Austen's novels usually first hit a wall for being immature. It's usually a pretty humbling experience for them. After first being humbled, they change their attitude, THEN get married. This was particularly true in Pride and Prejudice and especally Emma, where the White Knight(ly) slams her pretty hard for being unkind to a poor single woman.

48. Katrece said the following at 10:20 PM on Dec 30:

Latispatha, your comments seem almost contradictory to me.

"And if we are honest with ourselves as Christians, we cannot tell ourselves nor anyone else that we/they will reap much benefit from remaining a virgin. If one chooses to remain faithful to God on this issue - in this day and age - they are going to have to accept that this choice is likely to cost them. Following Christ is indeed a matter of picking up one's cross, after all."

"We" can't tell ourselves that we'll reap much benefit? God most certainly does. God's will and heart regarding purity within every aspect of one's life is explicitly revealed in scripture. God rewards those who obediently follow what He commands and our struggles aren't any worse than those who have gone before us. Satan didn't start tempting people more in the 20th and 21st Centuries than in past era.

Jesus says those who are pure in heart are blessed. I think being called "blessed" by the Lord is a huge gain. One doesn't have to begrudgingly live in a way to maintain virginity while moping around dragging one's cross. The cost and sacrifice necessary to follow Christ do not have to turn us into droopy-eared eeyores.

49. Ted Slater said the following at 10:42 PM on Dec 30:

I just have to leave a comment in response to a few things I've read here and on Suzanne's first blog on this topic.

I need to affirm sexual purity. I need to affirm those who are committed to sexual purity. I need to affirm that sexual purity is a virtue. Pre-marital virginity is good.

I also, of course, need to affirm God's forgiveness when someone sins sexually. Jesus' sacrifice at the cross more than covers the sins of those who place their faith in Him. In Him we are made pure, and our sins are remembered no more.

It's just feeling a little weird around here, as though some folks are affirming sexual infidelity, saying that such sin brings glory to God because it gives Him an opportunity to show forgiveness. And that those who are obedient in the area of sexual fidelity are somehow more often than not arrogant goody-two-shoes.

Reminds me of something the Apostle Paul wrote: "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Yes, God forgives sin. Thoroughly. At the same time, He calls us to sexual purity. And we are right to affirm those who are obedient to the Lord's call. Yeah?

50. Tara (not the other Tara) said the following at 10:48 PM on Dec 30:

I wish men would stop bashing Austen. There is a difference between Austen's writings and the women who swoon over some movie-version of Mr. Darcy. Chick-lit and rom-coms can pose problems and create false ideals but Austen really is the least of your worries. At least she is trying to be to say something smart. I'm not asking you to like her writing but some woman who has been dead for 200 years is the least of your worries. Also, there are many reasons why women are drawn to romance stories so you can't dismiss it all in one fell swoop as "wishful thinking". I find it real annoying when feminine interests are bashed and patronized by men. Of course you don't like them because they're not designed to interest you but they're not eeevil. Women often have differing tastes. Big deal! Blaming Austen for women not paying attention to you is like women blaming stinking video games for the lack of interested male suitors. It's not a simple cause and effect. The obsession with rom-coms or video games are bad but these things themselves aren't necessarily wrong.

Sorry for the off-topic rant but I find it woefully unfair to blame an accomplished novelist for someone's relational woes. What intelligent woman seriously expects a real man to be like Mr. Darcy? Sheesh.

51. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 11:26 PM on Dec 30:

Ted post 49:

I agree Ted and thanks for the reminder. My fiance was pure in her previous marriage and only had eyes for her man, and she now only desires me. I applaud that but also envy her because I cannot say that my eyes don't wander. I am slowly coming to appreciate those who have been pure, not just virgins, but also those who haven't indulged in porn or masturbation or sexual fantasies. Unfortunately, I cannot say that I am innocent of the last 3, even as a Christian it has been a HUGE struggle!

For those who haven't had these struggles, it may seem easy to just say "just stop sinning!" The truth is, I HAVE come across several individuals in my life that, whether they never struggled in this area, or have gained purity, HAVE been rather self-righteous! And no I am not being just overly sensitive. In my current recovery community, someone said that the majority of those who come across as very judgemental and condemning towards those who sin sexually are sinning sexually themselves! I love the men in my life who are courageous to tell me the truth (those are VERY tough things to hear), but who also love me regardless and still call me their friend and confidant.

I wish this struggle in my life had never showed up! I wish I had told some adult when I first came across porn when I was a kid, instead of hiding it away (literally and figuratively). I cannot change these initial failures in my past. I cannot tell you how many times in my 20s, 30s, and even in my early 40s HOW MANY TIMES I PRAYED THAT GOD WOULD TAKE THIS AWAY, AND THAT HE WOULD GIVE ME THE STRENGTH TO SAY "NO" TO THIS STUFF!!!

For those who have struggled with impurity, we can be more sensitive to the comments from those who haven't or from those who have cleaned up their lives.

I do have to confess that at times I have harbored attitudes like "he or she grew up in the church, so he/she has NO idea" or "what a naieve (sp?) person" - but I also have to honestly say because of my long life of sexual sin that I deep down ENVY those people who have been pure! Really! For all I know I could've been married in my early 20s if I hadn't had this struggle! Perhaps I wouldn't have been diagnosed with depression. Oh how much pain, SHAME, FEAR, and guilt I could've avoided if I hadn't struggled. Oh how much more of a close relationship with the Lord I may have had if I wasn't hiding in shame and guilt most of my life.

God is gracious and he CAN use my failures for future ministry to those who are on a similar path to me.

Ted, please keep reminding us that purity IS to be highly regarded!

52. anna said the following at 1:26 AM on Dec 31:

@ BDB #47

Exactly.

Austen writes social commentary about a time when a woman's choice of husband was really her only opportunity for a respectable life. The whole point is that the class-based restrictions on both genders means that people must marry suitable partners. If the women don't marry well, they lose social standing by becoming lady's companions or governesses.

A loss of social standing at that point had implications for the entire family, for generations. There's a line where the Bennett girls are made fun of because they have an uncle who is not landed gentry and actually has to work for a living. This hurts their ability to find husbands in their current socio-economic tier.

Remember, these girls are effectively penniless, because they can't inherit the land they live on. All they have is their respective talents, their beauty and their reputations. None of them are formally educated, and they don't even have the appropriate home-based tutelage, because of their parent's laxity. Out of the 5 girls, 4 of them are a little dopey.

And running off with the wrong guy means no take-backs: it's marriage or scandal.

Austen is sarcastic, and she's slightly mocking the characters who value puffery, or ostentation, or whose sense of self-worth is based on shallow values like pride (Mary) or social standing (her cousin or his patroness).

She's harsh towards the characters who fail in their duties, or who are liars.

She's more generous to the characters who are kind, loving, patient (like Jane or the aunt), humbled by their folly (Elisabeth's father), defiantly hopeful (Mr. Bingley) or responsible (Darcy or the Bennett's uncle.)

The rejection of the one suitor makes perfect sense: had Elizabeth picked him, it would have only been for money. She didn't respect him, or like him. She thought he was fatuous and weird. However, so does Austen, and so the character really IS the way Elizabeth thinks he is.

When he gets picked, his wife is treated with a little pity. She's also got to marry well, but she's older, and far less beautiful than the other women. She's doing the best with a not-so great situation, but her pragmatism is seen as settling for a man who is intellectually and emotionally beneath her. She marries for stability, not for love or respect, and the reader is meant to feel badly for her.

In P&P, the threat of picking an inferior man as a husband greatly jeopardizes the chances of the remaining family members to find spouses, and this is a serious matter.

The "bad boy" in P&P is a legitimate danger to the women he encounters, and isn't treated as a sympathetic character. He's not just a cad, he's a destroyer.

The money is an issue, not because the girls are shallow, but because they truly need to be mindful of the man's ability to provide for them.

Their father's inability to do so is what helps exacerbate their current situation, and it nearly proves their undoing.

In the beginning, Elizabeth doesn't like Darcy. None of them do. He's rich and handsome, but arrogant and rude.

They do like Bingley, because he's nice, he's cute, and he's done well with his life and inheritance. He's "everything a young man should be."

But he's a little silly, and influenced by his sisters, so he's not the man for Elizabeth. She's sweetly amused by him, as if he were a little brother.

The point of the story is that Elizabeth learns of Darcy's true inner qualities. He's prompted to show these to her, based on the fact she chides him for his previous behavior.

Darcy assumes that a handsome face and a hefty bank account will be enough to convince any woman to fall for him. But he hasn't shown honor, integrity, kindness, respect, or love. And so Elizabeth rejects him.

She already knows he's rich and handsome, but she doesn't care. And this is saying something, because she really is in no position to turn down an offer like his. But she does, because he hasn't shown his worth.

When she tells him this, it makes him realize that he needs to show his inner qualities. So he does, and as she learns about his real reputation, she sees the true riches of his character and values. He'd hidden those from her before.

When he decides to show her who he really is and explains what he's done, she changes her opinion.

I'm wondering if people who are critiquing it have actually read the book? It's one of my favorite stories of all time. I love Jane Austen.

53. BI said the following at 1:31 AM on Dec 31:

To all,

Both my previous posts on this blog referred to another important sin, very often neglected – namely, pride. Pride leads us to believe that all our titles and accomplishments are merely thanks to our own doing and that we deserve something more than others. Pride leads us to believe that God loves us or should love us more than other believers/people that’s why He has given us power, wealth, titles, wisdom, and accomplishments, and that’s why we deserve something even more and better. That’s a big problem that Christian leaders in the church have and also for young men and women of God who struggle to hold on to their purity and virginity. Pride leads us to believe that God should have given us much more than we already have and possess because we deserve something more as if the incredible love of our God for us, the promise to be one day in His blessed kingdom forever, and the undeserved grace for our past wrongs that we have received from Him through Jesus’ sacrifice are not more than enough for us.

It’s enough to just look around us to see how many people are suffering and in true need of help. It’s enough to go to the local hospital to see how many people face chronic conditions, incurable diseases, and all kinds of stuff to make us understand that God has already given us more than we deserve. And even most of those secular people who are arrogant and pretend to have it all together, are actually wearing masks in order to hide the deep hole and hurt that is inside of them because they do not have God in their lives. God is the only one who can give us true peace and love, and not a new spouse, a new family or a new something. You should probably already know this by the testimonies of believers who came to God later in their lives after they have realized that nothing else can fill the emptiness and the hole that is inside of them. If God wants for us to find a godly spouse and marry, let it be according to God’s plan – why should we worry too much and try to do it all on our own, can anything be better outside God’s plan for us?

The best thing we can do is to grow closer to God in love and wisdom and be ready to use and develop the gifts and talents He has given us. The best thing we can do is to be of service to others like these people in the hospital – maybe there we will find something much more valuable to us than all the money and possessions in the world, people’s genuine love and appreciation. This kind of genuine love and appreciation will not be like the insincere politeness and pretension shown by most people one meets in his/her life in the church, in the workplace, or somewhere else on the streets in the neighborhood. It will be more like God’s love for us. Because in these places where people are suffering we can surely find God also there in the lives of people who are broken and need help. Why do you think in the gospels Jesus was always found among such people full of compassion and love for them?

54. anna said the following at 2:13 AM on Dec 31:

@ Leigh, #14:

There's a lot of writing out there about "Not-Rape": this is a term given to forced/coerced acts of assault that, since they don't fall within a (narrow) legal definition of rape, go unpunished, uncounseled and are often not discussed.

There's an essay on Racialicious.com about the topic. It has a "trigger" warning, which means it includes a personal account of the author's experiences with this topic.

I don't know if you've heard of this resource, but RAINN.org is an excellent resource. They have a National Sexual Assault Hotline at 1.800.656.HOPE and a National Sexual Assault Online Hotline at rainn.org.

55. H.A.P. said the following at 7:25 AM on Dec 31:

Thanks for the clarity Ted! Some of the posts on these blogs could be interpeted to mean that my husband and I missed out on something that would glorify God when we married as virgins.?!

But, I think the truth of these comments is this...

"Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little. Then He said to her, Your sins are forgiven.” Luke 7v46&47

My husband and I don't want to "love little" but we have nothing with which to compare our experience. (virginity and marital fidelity) All the praise belongs to God. No arrogance here.

56. JVR from Denver said the following at 7:41 AM on Dec 31:

I gots quoted, w00t!!!!!

Thanks, Suzanne.

57. JVR from Denver said the following at 8:07 AM on Dec 31:

I do want to voice my disagreement, though.

It's judgemental behavior. That's all it is.

It's always uncomfortable to think about the person you're with having been with someone else. Even if you're outside the church.

But when I was outside the church, the general understanding was yeah, you've been with someone else and you've done some things you're probably not proud of. So have I. It's human.

And so now I stand among people whose ENTIRE WORLDVIEW is based on that statement: that we've all messed up... a lot. And now, for the first time, I'm going to get judged for my mistakes? Because you think you're too good for me?

Sometimes, I think the world represents Christ better than we do.

58. Tara said the following at 8:32 AM on Dec 31:

I have un off-topic question for Bl (#13), if they're still reading:

The Holy Spirit gift of prophecy? I understand this may be a difficult subject after being rejected by your church, but... could you elaborate, please?

59. Robert Hall said the following at 8:43 AM on Dec 31:

Ted,

I don't think anyone is claiming that sexual sin is a good thing. What is being claimed is that it's ok to reject someone because of their past sins. THAT is not Christ-like and you can't defend it no matter how you slice it.

On the other hand, we are called to purity and that is not something to be looked down on. The big problem I see is that the church has let the world's ideas about relationships creep into the church and people live on folksie sayings rather than on what the bible says.

Pastors don't talk about the subject because we all have this idea that marriage (or the finding of a mate) is some sort of mystical secret that we are searching for like Luke Skywalker learning about the Force.

How is it that all the generations past never tripped over the idea of "being called to celibacy" and never had problems with finding a mate?

It's because they just did it and didn't make up thousand of reasons to reject someone. It's time we got off our duffs and starting talking to each other as human beings. Then, we may discover there are people out there we never realized were there AND we just may find ourselves being attracted to people we never thought we would.

So forget the world, ditch the slick quotes and get in the word and approach people the way Jesus would, with a sharp eye, but also with grace and love.

60. Latispatha said the following at 9:17 AM on Dec 31:

To Katrece post number 48

While you mean well, your response is naive. You fail to acknowledge the real hardship and cost that those committed to sexual purity are struggling with in our current culture. A response such as yours - again, although you mean well - often can be more discouraging rather than encouraging.

The reality is, most Christians in the church in the U.S. don't have a real understanding of what it costs to follow Christ. And this particular area can become a real eye opener in terms of our expectation of biblical blessing.

A lot of the "blessings" they are promised from church pulpits are based on Old Testament promises given to Israel, if they as a nation and community together upheld their covenant with God.

We Christians who do not live in a theocracy have a very different road to walk.

And since "God sends rain on the just and unjust" what we often see with premarital sex is not just irresponsible lust, but the fact that for many couples premarital sex is a stage in the normative courtship process on the way to marriage.

So most men and women who end up happily married in our culture will have slept with their spouse before they were married, while those who have tried to remain sexually pure - and who also have not been given the gift of celibacy to be able to be satisfied in this state - are stuck in the place of Adam alone, which God said was NOT GOOD. And "not good" means "not blessed." God didn't actually bless Adam until AFTER Eve was by his side.

And sexuality in biblical history was much more complicated than most of us realize. For example, slaves were members of the early church. But slaves could not legally marry in the Roman Empire. Instead, male and female slaves often made private arrangements with each other that to them was a permanent commitment, but it was never actually marriage.

Would this have been immoral? I don't think so. Also, in some cultures to formalize a marriage contract you would have had to engage in a pagan ritual. So, what if you as a believing Christian had to bypass the legal marriage to avoid bowing down to another deity, but you picked someone and made a lifelong commitment to them that was not legally recognized?

BTW, the Hebrew word for "women" and "wife" are interchangeable, as are "husband" and "man". There is no word really for wife or husband, so our English translations are a little misleading. And there were no biblical rules on how a marriage ceremony was supposed to take place for it to be "legal."

By contrast, we do know that polygamy and concubinage and even prostitution was allowed in ancient Israel under biblical law. For all the laws that the Israelites were expected to adhere to, not a single rule against prostitution! This has always been a stunner for me.

Basically as Christians we are required by God ideally to be either a one-woman man, or a one-man woman. (Not a one-woman-at-a-time man! just to clarify).

The politics of marriage throughout history has been complicated. For example, in Rome there were actually TWO kinds of marriage (in Shia Islam today there are two kinds of legal marriage as well) so which do you choose?

But getting back to my original statement that we have to be honest about the price we might have to pay in this area as Christians...

Quite frankly, Christians who keep walking even when they are not being blessed for it are to be commended for it over those who stick with it for the "blessings." They don't deserve to be criticized if they can't always be Pollyannish about it.

Acknowledging one's true feelings is not "walking around weepy eyed." It's just a matter of keeping it real.

61. Elaine said the following at 9:19 AM on Dec 31:

Sexual Purity is good thing that is affirmed by the Bible which expects us to remain a virgin until marriage. When both parties are virgins is a good thing. It is expected that everyone carries baggage (family relations, relations with parents, problems from childhood, insecurity about looks, finances, etc.) but when both persons are virgins, one less baggage is carry into the marriage. Being sexual active before marriage runs the risks of contracting sexual transmitted diseases (STDS). Some of these are curable (Syphilis, Chlamydia), some causes infertility in women and disability in children. Others are incurable (AIDS and Herpes), you have to take medications for the rest of your life if you are going to have a comfortable life with them. I heard of two persons who contract AIDS by having sex with someone in the church. A gentleman got married to new convert and got the disease from that person. Another caught it when he was having sex with his girlfriend who was a Christian. When God asked us not to have premarital sex and extra marital sex, it is not that he does want us to have all the fun. He wants us to be healthy 3 John 2.

God wants us to be emotional healthy so he gave us rules for our sexual conduct. Rules regarding the avoiding of Incest, Rape, Homosexuality, Lesbian and Bestiality are given in Leviticus 18. The reasons he said to avoid them is to prevent abomination or evil among his people. Persons who are victim of Incest and Rape who have not received therapy and counselling frequently suffering from depression and low self esteem which lead to all types of behaviour including having multiple partners. There was a particular Brothel in Nevada where when a survey was done between 1993-1996 it shows that 50% of the prostitutes were sexual abuse as child. God doesn’t want us to be depressed, sad and suicidal; he wants us to be happy. Although it is not their fault that they started to have sex, some persons who were molested as children have sexual problem in marriage. But God can heal us of any emotional wound Exodus 15:26.

Another consequence of premarital sex is that someone will not date or marry you. Virginity is not only important among Christians, but Muslim, Judaism and even pagan cultures.

If a person who is virgin and does want to marry a nonvirgin it is that person’s preference. The persons should not be accused of being self righteous. As having sex before marriage has consequences that this person does want to take up. Yes, I believe one can expect to marry virgins as God always have faithful people in all times. In spite of what is happening around them. Continue to ask God to give them the strength to stand and remain faithful. For those who are nonvirgin, God forgives sins (1 John 1:9) and have the power to make you pure. If someone will not be in a relationship with you because of your past, God will provide someone for you. Remember although God forgives sin, not every human find it easy to forgive you and live with the consequence of sin.

PS. Female, remember even if the man has sex, he does want to pick a woman who has the same or more sexual experience than him. Males who are virgin might not want a woman who is not. Males are like to lead and take charge and they don't like to start a journey with someone on the same page.

62. BI said the following at 9:50 AM on Dec 31:

Tara, you wrote -- >I have un off-topic question for Bl (#13), if they're still reading:
The Holy Spirit gift of prophecy? I understand this may be a difficult subject after being rejected by your church, but... could you elaborate, please?<

The Lord speaks to me in dreams and visions, and sometimes He reveals things about people or things in general that are hidden. Sometimes God speaks to me in an inaudible but very clear way. It does not come when I want it, but the Lord reveals things only when and how He decides to. My church simply did not want to accept this gift. They obviously do not believe in prophecies anymore; hence, they perhaps decided that I must have some ulterior motive. Plus, my warnings were apparently not very pleasant to some important people in my church and to others who did not like the truth to come out so they treated me as an unbeliever.

63. Tami said the following at 10:34 AM on Dec 31:

JVR (57), you hit on something really important, which I've wrestled with myself (and it doesn't *only* have to do with sex, but it seems to come up most frequently in that discussion).

Yes, as believers, we *know* that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And under Christ, we have no excuse for pride and judgmentalism, especially towards someone's activity before they became a Christian. (If anyone's shocked that someone acted like an unbeliever when they were an unbeliever...)

But I think the difference between the world's acceptance of our pasts, and the church's (biblical) acceptance, is that the world says (especially in the case of sex), "Meh, wasn't really wrong, was just a mistake," while the Bible *acknowledges* the wrongness of the actions while prompting us to be repentant and walk forward in new life. So in both cases, the past is the past, but the *attitude* towards the past is either redemptive, or not. (I should also mention that, sadly, Christians are capable of not letting the past be the past, even when the person is repentant.)

I have faced judgment in church (for *ridiculous* and worldly reasons) so I know what it is like to be rejected by a body that is designed to be accepting of those who follow the Lord sincerely. I also know what it is like feel extremely skeptical towards the church because of this rejection, and to be more warmly received by nonbelievers. And yet, I am still confident that Christ's body really *is* the best... especially if it is following Him closely. If anyone is in a church with a unchristlike attitude, I hope and pray you will find a biblical and encouraging church.

My caution is that I personally have seen the attitude of "the world acts more like Christ than Christians" develop into a pride and lack of desire for fellowship with Christians, and, at times, rejection of truly Christian actions and attitudes, even to the point of unrepentance (and JVR I'm absolutely not accusing you of this at all... I'm just speaking of what I've seen).

I also think Satan is more than willing to point out the flaws of our fellow believers, and get us suspicious of one another, rejecting one another, and splintering.

Again... JVR, not picking on you, or accusing you of what I've written above. Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts. I'm just using your ponderings as a chance to sharing my ruminations. :)

64. Laura said the following at 11:12 AM on Dec 31:

Sorry, I know this is a bit off-topic. I think the consensus so far is that we as Christians need to be willing to extend grace to others who have lived immorally in the past. If there is true repentence and you have discenerned through prayer that God is leading you to marry this person, then you have a green light. Great.

But what if the person's past struggle was with pornagraphy? I suppose the same principle would apply. But should there be a certain amount of time of "victory" in your life before that person pursues anyone for marriage?

I don't know if it's fair to compare a porn addiction to having premarital sex. But it would be nice to know that that behavior has been repented of and forsaken, just as it would be necessary for anyone with a past immoral lifestyle to have changed their course. The young lady wrote in and said that she is pretty much resigned to the probability of marrying a nonvirgin. But I think many people have applied that to a future spouse's porn use too (maybe even accepting the fact that porn may be used throughout the couple's entire marriage).

So while I can reconcile myself to marrying a non-virgin (if things do unfold that way), my main concerns would most definitely be on how that person is living their life now and if they are serious about honoring the marriage vows. Most people condemn having a physical relationship with someone other than their spouse (the outrage at Tiger Woods' infidelity is a good example). But how many people go into marriage knowing that porn will always be a problem? And is it fair to even compare the two?

65. a sassy sister said the following at 11:46 AM on Dec 31:

hmmm...lots of comments floating around here about this topic. You know what I think? I agree that sexual purity is great. I support and encourage it. But I also understand that those who have abstained should praise God and thank God that they've remained pure. That's where the credit lies. Too many times people get in trouble and have an entitlement view about saving themselves for marriage, as a way to ease the pain in protracted singleness. Let's get real here: As Christians, virgins and non, we are ALL called to purity, pursuing holiness in our lives(and in EVERY aspect of our lives,not just sexually). While that doesn't mean that those who have abstained are unreasonable in their desire to marry virgins, that can, and never will be justification for disrespect, contempt, condescenion, or mistreatment of those who are not virgins now. Why is it so easy for people to be there when someone falls but rarely be there to help as they get back up by the grace of God?

66. New Bride said the following at 11:53 AM on Dec 31:

Well said Robert Hall, well said!

67. JVR from Denver said the following at 12:08 PM on Dec 31:

Tami (63),

Appreciate your input.

68. Laura said the following at 12:08 PM on Dec 31:

Anna #52

That was a very eloquent summary of Jane Austen's Pride & Prejudice. When I was growing up it was one of my favorites, along with Charles Dickens' Oliver Twist. I think that some silly and fanatical women give Austen and her books a bad name. Now I'm almost afraid to say that I enjoyed Austen's books. It's almost like saying you like Star Trek, and then being labeled a Trekkie. Oh well. I guess you either love or hate her books.

BDB said:

"The women in Austen's novels usually first hit a wall for being immature. It's usually a pretty humbling experience for them."

For me, that was the best part. Especially when Knightly gave Emma a firm rebuke for being impudent and careless in her speech. He basically told her to shut up (but he said it in much more poetic terms). It was nice to see her put in her place, because she was a loose cannon of a woman. In a way it reminded me of The Taming of the Shrew, minus the humor and fits of rage.

69. Maggie said the following at 12:41 PM on Dec 31:

This may be slightly off-topic, but props to you BDB (47) for coming to the defense of the fabulous Jane Austen

Jane Austen's heroines are for the most part strong, intelligent, and moral women who resist the temptation of men of poor character and who grow and learn throughout the books... AND they don't all end up marrying rich "white knights" - Elinor in Sense and Sensibility ends up with a man who has been disinherited by his family (because he honoured a commitment they disagreed with). The women in Austen's books who view men as playthings or means to an end often reap what they've sown through disgrace (Lydia Bennet in P&P, Maria Bertram in Mansfield Park) or by remaining alone (Caroline Bingley, my favourite of Austen's "evil" characters). There is definitely a lot to learn and emulate in her characters... but you will need to read the book and not watch the Hollywood portrayals to get the whole message.

Sorry for the rant and happy new year to you all! :-)

70. Laura said the following at 12:43 PM on Dec 31:

Ted, I agree with your post. And quoting the words of the Apostle Paul was certainly appropriate. I think that it was important to introduce Scripture to this discussion. Otherwise it's just all about our own feelings and emotions (which can be wrong and misguided).

In my opinion, if a a man meets a nonvirgin woman and she exhibits the qualities of a Proverbs 7 woman (continually flirting and making herself emotionally if not sexually available to passerbys), then I would say beware. Maybe she needs a little bit more time for God to change her heart, but change is possible. And, to be fair, if a man who is a nonvirgin pressures a person sexually and/or leers at other women and makes them uncomfortable, I would say use caution. The same "test" applies to virgins, as well. It is wrong to be judgmental (do not judge, lest you be judged), but it is not wrong to look for fruits of the Spirit. Even people who aspired to become elders or deacons in the church had to meet some basic qualifications based on how they were living their life. So I don't think that it is wrong to inspect another person's life when you are considering entering into a covenant with them.

In my experience, most of the people who have serious concerns about dating/marrying a nonvirgin are not puffing themselves up and exhibiting some feigned sense of piety (though I acknowledge that such people certainly do exist). More often than not, the chief concern is that the person in question is going to use them and hurt them. Judging the other person's past indiscretions could be the furthest thing from their mind.

71. BDB said the following at 12:45 PM on Dec 31:

There is much wisdom in Julie (#6)'s post. And Leigh's (#14) is heartbreaking.

One of the most godly women I knew in high school was the victim of date rape in her first year of college. She decided to keep her daughter rather than have an abortion. And for the last few years has given her testimony publicly to youth groups and especially mentoring girls.

And that's why you need to be careful about blurting out how you've saved yourself and won't settle for anything less. There may be people around you for whom it wasn't really a "choice" and they secretly believe no one will ever legitimately want them because they suffered from someone ELSE's sin.

By all means, think through potential scenarios and what you would seek in terms of repentance from someone. There are lots of resources FOTF offers that are in the saving marriage sections. They may provide a framework useful to people who are worried about specific issues in people's past.

Something that hasn't been discussed much on Boundless is how women, especially those who've had a seriously negative experience with a man, classify men into "safe" and "not safe." It's entirely possible that a Christian man who wants to be respectful to quash taking any initiative. This may get him defined as "safe" and result in a lot of women being around him. But women who associate male initiative with unpleasant experiences might react quite negatively if a "safe" guy up and takes initiative one day without warning. Even if it's just a lunch invitation.

72. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 12:47 PM on Dec 31:

Laura (pst 64):

This is one of MY struggles. Unfortunately, it IS a struggle with MANY CHRISTIAN men in the church, single AND married. There is this false notion that when a man gets married, his lust problem will disappear. I can tell you with a great amount of confidence (i.e., I know WAY to many men that said that they thought marriage would take away their sexual sinning - it didn't) that marriage doesn't "cure" men acting out sexually/sexually sinning.

The primary issue is not to "just get married". The primary issue is a heart issue. It is great to bounce your eyes, use filters on your computer, look at women from the neck up, but this is all just sin-management. Eventually the monster of lust WILL rise up again in a man, and he will need help, God's and hopefully he will have others who will help him. You must eventually get to your heart! What is your desire? Is your sexually acting out/sexually sinning a sign that you are hunger for something and you haven't found it? Men who sin sexually and who marry the so-called "hotties" still find their wives not enough (yes women, being a "hottie" isn't going to solve anything). Remember, the woman at the well was on her 5th man (previous 4 she was married to). Jesus didn't pound her down with "God's hates divorce" (He does), but he presented himself. She needed Jesus, not another man!

I say all this because I wanted to let you know that for some or many CHRISTIAN men who struggle with sexual sin, it is and will be a DAILY battle. The man will have to live each day thinking "Do I want to be well today?" - like the man at the Pool of Bethesda. He will have to daily guard his heart, not just his eyes. There will be days where it will be REALLY tough to remain pure. This doesn't mean that he will look at porn once a month or so, but the temptations will be there. A man I know who is well into his 20th year of purity/sobriety admits that he still gets "triggered" at times and has to make adjustments in his life.

I appreciate your concern about porn in a marriage. This issues had been talked about between my fiance and I, and I do understand her concerns. Eventually when we get into our pre-marital classes I WILL be questioned about it. I have to be open to understanding that the pastor may very well indeed recommend that we postpone our marriage, which will be hard on both of us. My fiance loves me and she said that she will always love me regardless of what happens. And I must be willing to continual growth in this area, engaged or not.

I am not saying some of these things to discourage you (meaning that many men will always be tempted), but just to let you know the truth. Purity isn't just a one-night rally in a stadium and then go home in live happily ever after. Purity isn't just smashing your computer with a baseball bat (I did like "Fireproof", but impurity isn't a computer problem, it is a heart problem). Purity isn't just a 16 week program and then you are "cured". Purity is a lifelong battle/struggle/war.

If your question about porn applies to your personal relationships with men, which I assume it may, remember that it is your choice on whether or not to marry a man who isn't a virgin or who is and/or has struggled with porn. It is entirely up to you. God made people with certain desires. I knew full well in my 20s and 30s that many women won't be virgins at marriage, and that many women will also have abuse issues in their past. I also reminded myself, when I started a dating life a few years ago, that some women, if the subject came up, may just reject me because of my struggles. That hurts, but I had to give them the GRACE to honor their desires.

THanks for your question. I hope it helps.

73. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 12:49 PM on Dec 31:

Tami (post 46): Thanks! Pray for us! God bless you!

74. Tara said the following at 1:28 PM on Dec 31:

Dear Bl, continuing our off-topic discussion:

Forgive a blunt-sounding question, but I'm curious to hear your answer to this: how would you say that you know that your dreams, visions, and other such prophecies are from God - as in, they're directly inspired by Him and infallible as the Bible itself? Or do you not believe it to that extreme?

Also, in your mind, what would have been a more loving and wise way for your former church to put your gifts to the test? How would you have liked them to handle the situation, recognizing that it is partly the roles of the church elders to wisely discern which influences are from God and which are not?

Thanks so much for your time, and I'm sorry for your bad experience with your church.

75. anna said the following at 1:40 PM on Dec 31:

@ Latrece 60 and Jack

"They don't deserve to be criticized if they can't always be Pollyannish about it.

Acknowledging one's true feelings is not "walking around weepy eyed." It's just a matter of keeping it real."

It's not "keeping it real" to be so upset at the actions of a person whom you have never met, to use it as a reason to harbor bitterness.

There's a difference between feeling sadness and regret, and fostering those feelings. That latter case is making a safe haven for those feelings. It's choosing to grow bitterness, instead of choosing to fight it. It's not a critique of Pollyannish behavior, but the recognition that in some of these statements, fear, bitterness and rancor are being fed and watered. And this is worthy of critical analysis.

I'm reading some of these posts:

"What can I say? I felt a deep burning sense of shame and inadequacy.
Only tall men (read: Real Men) need apply. I'm just a piece of garbage, the rest of my accomplishments and qualities rinsed away by my utter failure to be tall."

And what I'm hearing is a ton of self hatred, with the blame for that hatred placed on the shoulders of a an external source.

She told you that she felt insecure, and that's why she wanted a taller man. She didn't say you were garbage, or not a real man. She said that she feels badly about her size and a way to fix that is to not date a man near her size.

I can see being disappointed that her esteem is too low for her to generate her own feelings of self-worth. Or even annoyed that she'd be so shallow. But I don't understand why you would use someone else's flawed thinking as an edict for why you're not worthy.

You're telling yourself you're not worthy, or not a real man, or that you're garbage. But by blaming her, you're fostering these feelings at the same time you're abdicating responsibility for them.

I'm trying to be kind as well as blunt, so I hope you can hear it in that spirit:

your behavior is irrational. It's not another person's responsibility to make you feel emotionally whole.

And you may need to make an affirmative decision to use this time to either get some help with this, so you can have a healthy relationship. Or not, and choose celibacy.

But in either case, you have the responsibility to create a healthy emotional life.

I've read a lot of your posts on this topic, and I feel like I'm listening to a man who is in over his head with these feelings. In my heart, I believe you need more help than what can be found on an anonymous message board.

I'm thinking that, if the perfect woman of your dreams came to you right now, could you develop a relationship with her that wasn't misaligned by this habit of nurturing bitterness and self-doubt?

I'm hoping that you use this time to address those issues with someone who has the professional expertise to aid you. Because if the presence or absence of some woman's regard going to continue to cause these effects in you, you're needlessly reinforcing unproductive and unhealthy habits that are already damaging your life.

76. Ted Slater said the following at 1:47 PM on Dec 31:

BI (#62) -- yes, God communicates to His people, and to some gives what we could call a prophetic sense.

The gift of prophecy, though, must be offered in an orderly manner, and under the authority of church leadership. It must be offered in love, and for the purpose of "strengthening, encouragement and comfort."

I've seen some people who feel they have a prophetic word try to usurp the senior pastor's authority, disregarding *his* biblically-informed insights, which consequently introduced division. Such arrogance was not cool. 1 Cor. 13 and 14 clarify how such a gift is to be used in the church.

77. DEH said the following at 1:54 PM on Dec 31:

I think others have noted this already, but I feel like there's some confusion over what it means to forgive and treat someone like a brother/sister in Christ and what that requires (and does not require).

I can forgive and completely accept believers as covered by the blood of Christ, not treating them as second-class Christians because they are not virgins. I can develop relationships with these people and worship with them and serve alongside them in ministry settings. I can genuinely hope and pray that God blesses them in incredible ways and rewards them for their current faithfulness and commitment to remaining pure. I can affirm and support and truly love these people with a sacrificial kind of love as modeled by Christ.

That doesn't mean I have to marry them.

78. DEH said the following at 1:55 PM on Dec 31:

First, Let me affirm that the blood of Christ washes away all our sins, no matter what they were.

But I wonder if we are confusing the idea that all sins lead to separation from God (and thus are equal in that respect) with the idea that all sins are equal in every way. I don't think the latter is the case, otherwise Paul would not have made a distinction in 1 Corinthians 6 between "sins against the body" and all other sins.

Different sins do have different effects on the people who commit them and on the other people who are affected by these sins. Just because a sin is forgiven does not mean that all the consequences for that sin evaporate into thin air. God's forgiveness puts us in good standing with God because when he looks upon us, he sees Christ. But our lives could still be in shambles and falling apart around us, even if we have received that forgiveness. We could still have unplanned pregnancies and STDs to deal with. Our relationships with others will undoubtedly be affected. Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean that sin has no lingering consequences.

I find myself questioning whether a person who refuses to accept that there may be earthly consequences for his/her sin has really repented, because such repentance should involve an acknowledgment of the justice in bearing the consequences for one's sins. Otherwise there would be no true admittance of guilt.

And just for clarification, I believe all sin has consequences, not just sexual sin. We are not "better" Christians for never having sinned in particular ways.

All I'm saying is that one of the consequences for having premarital sex may very well be rejection as a potential marriage partner, and that the fault for said rejection lies primarily with the person being rejected. There could be a side issue with pride and self-righteousness on the part of the one doing the rejecting as well, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. Ultimately, very few people are bound by God to marry anyone in particular. It's one of the areas of free choice we've been given. So if you choose not to marry a non-virgin, you are not sinning by that particular choice. You may be missing out on a potential marriage to a Godly person, but I really don't think you are sinning.

Those are my current thoughts on the matter at least. :)

May God bless all of you in pursuit of chastity and Christ-likeness.

79. JVR from Denver said the following at 2:24 PM on Dec 31:

DEH (77),

No, it doesn't mean that you have to marry them. However, if you've forgiven them, you can't hold it against them.

Unless maybe you'd like Jesus to do the same for you. "Well, I've forgiven you, but you still did what you did and so you're going to have to pay the consequences."

80. Robert Hall said the following at 2:38 PM on Dec 31:

DEH,

Then it's no wonder the world thinks we are hypocrites.

I hope no one ever says "I won't marry someone who has been prideful" or "I won't marry a person who has ever used foul language", etc.

..you get the picture.

81. BI said the following at 2:48 PM on Dec 31:

Tara and Ted,

I did not choose God, but God chose me.

2 Chronicles 36: 15-16

15 The LORD, the God of their ancestors, repeatedly sent his prophets to warn them, for he had compassion on his people and his Temple.16 But the people mocked these messengers of God and despised their words. They scoffed at the prophets until the LORD's anger could no longer be restrained and nothing could be done.

82. anoynamous girl said the following at 3:24 PM on Dec 31:

The main thing I have learned since being in a relationship for the first time at 24 years old (and having never even kissed a man before this relationship) is how powerful sexual feelings/desires/lust is and to have met it essentially defenseless (by letting ourselves be alone) was pretty much the most foolish decision of my life - I took all the knowledge God had given me regarding my flesh and sin and how to avoid sin (esp. from reading Boundless for the last 2 years) and threw it out the window in those 30+ minutes. My boyfriend and I started out doing a bible study together and ended up sinning sexually together, but stopped short of undressing completely and having intercourse. I was so devastated and grieved (as was my bofriend). I truly and unfortunately understand now why sexual sin is committed against the body, and how hard it is to get it out of your mind. But thank God He restores and heals, He forgives, not so that we can continue in sin so that grace may abound, but that we can be humbled and His mercy can be poured out in our hearts enabling us to move forward, having repented and turned away from our sin completely. We know now that we can NEVER be alone, we will never trust ourselves to be alone privately again until our wedding night (which is where we believe God is leading us in a timely and wise manner). I have realized also that by not allowing ourselves to be alone (outside of public arenas like a restaurant, store, etc.) all the temptation (like kissing) that leads to more temptation to do other things, is removed because we're not going to go make out when other people are always around us. Is it shameful/embarrassing to me that I have to admit I don't have enough self control to be alone with my boyfriend? Yes, it is. But I'd rather be honest in my heart of my weakness than sin against a Holy and Just God. I know that my spirit is saved and regenerated but my flesh is still able to sin and I have to use Godly wisdom to obey God. God allowed me to realize the horrible burden of sin through this experience and to catch a small glimpse of the sin Christ had to carry on the cross for me - it was the most horrible feeling I've ever experienced and I pray I never have to go through it again, but thanks be to God for His mercy and for what He's done in my heart throughout this situation. I truly have tasted His sure mercies and that He will not despise a broken and contrite heart. I won't allow Satan to lie to me and tell me I'm a defeated sinner and of no use to God, because that's exactly the opposite of what I know is true. With all that being said, I know that God never wants us to sin so he can teach us something - in His mercy He does use our sin to convict and turn us back toward Him, but it's always His will that we do not sin and even though I know I'm forgiven and won't get caught up in wishing it had never happened since I can't change the past, it would always be better to have not sinned. We should always esteem and encourage purity in those who are waiting until the covenant of marriage to engage in sexual behavior - this is God's plan and it's perfect! But we must also balance forgiveness and grace towards those who have sinned sexually in the past and encourage them turn back to purity and waiting for marriage (for the glory of God alone!!). If someone can't handle someone's sexual past, that's their right, but they should make the person feel loved in Christ, valued and worthy of love, even if they don't feel called to marriage with them. Certainly purity before marriage is to be valued above all, but if someone has sinned there is room at the cross for them!! Sorry if I rambled throughout this! Peace and grace to all :)

83. Latispatha said the following at 3:25 PM on Dec 31:

To DEH re: Post 77

Amen. Well said.

I personally would not, and have not, rejected a man as a potential mate because he was not a virgin. I've always been very realistic about this and have never expected to marry a man who was a virgin.

But unfortunately the men - Christian men - that I've dated with a sexual past always have turned out to be bad candidates for marriage largely because of their sexual past, so these relationships did not go in that direction.

I don't doubt their salvation, and harbor no hard feelings, but these guys definitely were not good husband material when one dug a little deeper.

Being a virgin, on the other hand, is not the only thing that makes one a good candidate for a spouse. Definitely this has to go hand-in-hand with other qualities.

What's unfortunate is that I find more Christians not wanting to marry virgins because they don't want to have to face the full impact of their own past sin choices in the context of a relationship with someone else who did not sin in this area.

A lot of Christians want to get forgiveness without experiencing the full weight of guilt - for whatever our respective sins are (not just sexual). Occasionally going through a few sleepless nights of self-loathing actually is healthy in my opinion. It's called conviction. Then we get over it and get on with our lives, understanding and being joyful in God's forgiveness.

If we've never experienced a healthy dose of self-loathing, then we've never truly viewed ourselves as sinners needing forgiveness that can only come through Jesus' horrendous death.

If a Christian with a sexual past truly has changed - then great. But also, they have to have other good qualities that would make them a good spouse. In this vein, one's handling of sexuality is not an isolated aspect of one's person. It indicates our general character. So if one handles sex poorly, it's likely they handle other parts of life poorly as well.

A person's choice to repent and change, giving up sinful sexual activity, is no more or no less difficult than one who resisted sexual sin in the face of the forces of our culture that make this almost impossible.

The real point for all Christian converts is to sin no more, whatever their sin. Unfortunately, we have a lot of Christians who keep up a cycle of sinning, and brushing it off as just being human, rather than truly making a new start in life.

If I marry a great guy with a not-so-great sexual past who has repented, maybe the ideal is for him to not have had a problem sinning in an area where I'm more guilty.

Then we're even :-)

84. Sarah P. said the following at 3:50 PM on Dec 31:

I was going to post this comment anonymously, but then I thought, why bother?

Basically, at one time I thought I had to marry a virgin. Strangely enough, at that time I was also caught up in despair and self-hatred at the thought I would ever be married -- because, you see, I started reading erotic stories online at age 12 out of curiosity and ignorance and soon became addicted to reading those stories and to masturbation. I would even on occasion steal romance novels at the grocery store when I went shopping with my parents.

Which is why when I say I despise the Twilight books and other, similar literature because of the manipulative themes they include, I know what I'm talking about. I know the genre intimately.

So I was filled with despair because I knew, if I ever found the great potential husband, I would have to confess this past to him. Then he would dump me. I castigated myself for my sin no end, and I utterly despised the images I created in my mind, but I would always give in.

I know Dan Littledahl is correct. I was medicating myself for the huge hole of love in my heart. I can't even explain the slow process of healing over the last 4-5 years, since the hurts I needed to forgive and the things I needed to learn about God are too complicated and subtle -- therefore, kind of dull to anyone else.

Suffice it to say that I have realized we are all broken in this area of sex. Every one, more or less. My future husband will hurt me some, and I will hurt him. I am unafraid to be hurt, since perfect love casts out fear. The only question is how much hurt I am willing to take on while seeking to pursue God's callings on my life. If I am convinced that marrying someone is the right thing to do, I will do it, no matter his past.

85. Ted Slater said the following at 4:01 PM on Dec 31:

BI (#81) -- We are right to evaluate the words of those who claim to be prophets, to "weigh carefully what is said." Scripture commands us to do so. We are not "scoffing" at you; we are weighing your words against the infallible Word of God.

Did the word of God originate with you, BI? Or are you the only person it has reached? If you think you are a prophet or spiritually gifted, acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If you ignore this, you yourself will be ignored.

(For clarification and elaboration, see the end of 1 Cor. 14, as well as the beginning of 1 Cor. 13.)

86. JuliaH said the following at 4:07 PM on Dec 31:

I'm wondering how this idea relates to marrying someone who has a criminal record from prior to becoming a Christian? Unwise or wise? Is it only about offering forgiveness or is it about protecting yourself from the consequences of their past?

87. Latispatha said the following at 4:10 PM on Dec 31:

Mention has been made regarding the biblical account of the adulterous woman about to be stoned, and how Jesus intervened on her behalf, stating the infamous quote "Let him among you who is without sin cast the first stone." (John 8)

Actually, this incident probably never happened. It was added to the gospel approx. 300 years after the fact. The earlier manuscripts do not contain this scene.

Also, the Prodigal Son story is often misunderstood on a number of points, and the older brother is unduly criticized as being judgmental. But one of the key points is that while the father loves both sons, he has a different relationship with both of them. When the father tells the eldest son "All that is mine is yours" he is assuring the older son that although he has forgiven the younger son, he won't be giving/trusting him with any more money - that the eldest son's inheritance is protected.

So, yes we are forgiven and loved. But yes there can be permanent consequences when it comes to our sin.

88. Tara said the following at 4:25 PM on Dec 31:

Hi, Bl!

I really hope that I'm not being offensive here. My questions were meant honestly - as someone with little personal experience in this area, I truly am curious to know what you think. I'm not planning to debate this subject with you here, since this is a blog post about a totally unrelated topic. :)

My questions were:

1) How do you believe a person with the Holy Spirit gift of prophecy knows that their visions, thoughts, etc. are inspired by God (and not just their own thoughts)?

2) How do you believe your former church should have responded to you and your gifts?

Thanks in advance, and please understand that there's no offense meant here.

89. jack said the following at 4:59 PM on Dec 31:

anna-

If you are assuming that I arrived at my conclusions from a single experience, or merely several, then I have nothing further to say. Try 20+ years of this. I used to be a sweet guy - no bitterness, etc. Really.

Guess what - no matter how much you decide not to let externals decide your self-image, it is inescapable to some degree. If I lived in your house and called you names all day long, it would eventually affect you. As it eventually affected me.

Anway, I am, and always was, perfectly fine with my height. Unfortunately, an amazing number of women are not. So no matter how decent of a guy I think I am, if women aren't interested, then who cares what I think?

You are utterly free to indulge in psychoanalyzing me based on my posts. I will not take that liberty with you.

But if you really want to make a positive change in the world, maybe trying to talk some sense into these romance and looks-obsessed Christian women would go a lot further than telling one guy "you need help".

As far as me finding someone? I already told you that I mostly gave up. Hope deferred makes the heart sick. I probably should stop hoping before my heart gets any worse.

The real problem is that Christians use the same selection process as unbelievers.

They just think that if they use the world's same shallow selection process in the correct pond, they will catch the correct fish.

Shallowness catches creeps, whether in a bar, or in a church.

We live among a corrupt generation, many of whom will never marry because of their lust and pride.

90. Sarah P. said the following at 5:33 PM on Dec 31:

Jack, I've been watching your posts some time and praying for you. I don't have any words of wisdom that will "fix" you. You are very hurt. Most others have been too, however, and one thing I have observed is that you seem to have trouble recognizing this fact.

I created a wry, five-minute film on this theme two years ago. You may be interested to watch it on Tangle: http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=7774cf2dac0beead96d7

I know plenty of short guys who ended up married. Yes, you are short. Yes, you are (at least online) a grumpy pain in the neck! If, by God's grace, you can manage to scrape together true love for another undeserving human being (and we are all undeserving of love!), then someone will reciprocate. And if not, true love is never wasted.

God bless, my brother.

91. Sean said the following at 5:35 PM on Dec 31:

I commented a lot on the "Overcoming Her Sexual Past" post. With this discussion my convictions are firm, and my empathy is high. But I'm exhausted by the debate. I just pray we try as best we can to derive our convictions from Scripture and from the character of Christ.

Study -deeply- the characters in John 4 and Luke 7. Consider *redemption* and what it would look like to reflect Christ the Redeemer in the most personal of relationships.

92. Laura said the following at 6:09 PM on Dec 31:

BDB #71

Thank you, thank you, thank you! You are my hero for the day. I had a very similar experience to Leigh's (molestation). Without going into too much detail, I will just say that God protected me and I was able keep my virginity. But being sexually violated has been the worst experience of my life to date, and I have not viewed men the same since then.

I have never heard anyone (male or female) state that they understand how women who have been raped or molested classify guys in "safe" or "not safe" categories. I do this almost unconsciously. I must confess that 99 % of the time, I do associate male attention and initiative with my past bad experiences. Though God has been working in my life to restore a proper view of men, it has been an almost daily struggle.

Leigh #14

Your story is heartbreaking. I know what it is like to feel dirty because your body has been violated. I can't offer you anything other than encouragement, as I am still in the process of healing myself. I don't know where you are in that process, but things do eventually get better with God's help. I used to think that I could never trust a man again, but God has brought men in my life that are trustworthy. I also never thought I would get over viewing myself as dirty, but I don't hold that view anymore (it took years for me to get past that). God can change our hearts and minds, even when things seem too far gone. And I am sure that a Godly man would be happy to have you as his wife.

And here's a separate issue: How many girls have sex when they don't even want to, and that is how they lose their virginity? My guess is that the number is in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. I don't know if it is biologically possible for a guy to have sex unless he wants to (or he is raped). But there are so many women and young girls who have sex under pressure and lose their virginity, and they hate every second of it.

93. anna said the following at 7:19 PM on Dec 31:

@ Jack,

I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you. I'm telling you that you're making a habit that, by your own admission, is not bringing you joy or peace.

"Guess what - no matter how much you decide not to let externals decide your self-image, it is inescapable to some degree. If I lived in your house and called you names all day long, it would eventually affect you. As it eventually affected me."

I absolutely agree with you.

But I would hope that, if I lived in your home, and you abused me thusly, someone with an ounce of common sense would tell me that I don't have to stay in an environment that causes me pain. That person might not know how to heal me, but they can easily see that I'm not going to stop the abuse by sticking around.

It's not inescapable to stop letting these externals drive your life. You're not merely being influenced, you're being steered, and from what you've explicitly stated in previous posts, you're doing it to yourself.

I wish you would go back to your previous posts, print them out, and look at them with an objective, neutral party.

I'm not, nor have I ever told you that your feelings are wrong. You feel how you feel.

But it is true that you're harming yourself by your continued behavior in this area - specifically, the tendency to denigrate yourself and foster feelings of worthlessness - this is a learned action.

"I probably should stop hoping before my heart gets any worse."

I think you are, and deserve better than that. Ultimately, it's a decision you'll have to make for yourself as to whether or not you agree and if you're willing to act accordingly.

I wish I knew you personally so I could be more candid. But I think the reason why your posts strike me so keenly is because there are so many people who are truly bombarded with messages about how worthless they are, unintelligent, unattractive and not able to find spouses. They're not reading into these messages, they're being told flat out how bad they are.

But the thing is, we're not guaranteed that the world is going to validate us. And we're not promised that life will be kind or fair to us.

That's what I meant when I said we have individual responsibilities to make sure we have healthy lives. We have to be active, not passive. Otherwise, we drown.

As I said, I hope you can take my words in a good light. If I thought you were worthless, it'd be rather pointless to address you at all.

And while you may be correct that I could use my time in confronting shallow women, I don't think that's something I should do. Partially because I disagree with your reading of why the women are being shallow.

Also, because I think that the mindset that a person can be rejected by the choices of someone whom he or she has never met is just not helpful to getting people married.

It's fair to say that protracted singleness can be painful. Or that rejection can be hurtful. Or even that there can be too-narrow viewpoints about what makes a person attractive.

"Anway, I am, and always was, perfectly fine with my height. Unfortunately, an amazing number of women are not. So no matter how decent of a guy I think I am, if women aren't interested, then who cares what I think?"

An amazing number isn't every single woman, or even most women. Ultimately, you just need one, if you know what I mean.

So to judge women entirely by the actions of some, and using your pain to legitimize that decision-making style is (to put it mildly) not fair, and not a good model for men.

And that's affecting my final reason: because I'm not marrying a woman. So I'm less interested in the mindset and decision-making skills of other women.

If you think about it, it's probably in my better interest to have them all pick poorly, and leave more Christian guys single and available to me, lol.

Seriously, just think about what I've said. It's not meant to denigrate you. I 100% guarantee there's some woman out there that fits in your plans. I hope that when she arrives, your present habits don't impede you from recognizing her or being happy with her.

94. Laura said the following at 7:29 PM on Dec 31:

Dan #72

I saw your post after BDB's and now you are my second hero of the day! Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question. I think your analogy of purity not being a one-night rally is right on target. I did have a boyfriend who was into porn, but he didn't see anything wrong with it. He said that all guys look at porn and that I shouldn't worry about it. Things didn't work out between us.

I think I could marry a nonvirgin or someone who has previously viewed porn. I know that I have my own baggage to deal with. But I guess it all comes down to a person's trajectory and where they are headed in life. I can understand and empathize with someone who knows that porn is not God's design or best for them, and vigorously fights to maintain purity before God. But I would have to draw the line when a person doesn't see anything wrong with it, and then tells me not to worry about it. I can relate to and understand the struggle. But I don't think I can handle complacency or someone saying that porn just isn't that big of a deal.

Again, thanks so much for answering my question. If I could trouble you for just one more thing : ) What would you tell a young lady (or young man) who is considering marriage to someone who has had a past porn habit or addiction? Given that you are, I would say, an example of someone who has struggled with this in the past and now are in a God-honoring relationship headed towards marriage, is there any word of encouragement or assurance that you could give someone who is considering a serious relationship with someone who has used porn heavily in the past? And thank you for not saying that I'm wrong or stupid to have this concern. I've never seen porn and I just don't know how it affects people. If you could be an advocate for someone who had a past porn habit and then had a change of heart, what would you say to the person who is considering them as a potential spouse?

Thanks again.

95. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 7:54 PM on Dec 31:

Laura (post 92) and Leigh (#14):

I am sorry for the sins perpetrated on you by other men. Leigh, I once heard a testimony by a woman who lived in India. She was a sex slave for many years before being saved from this lifestyle and before being saved (i.e., coming to Christ). I am sure she felt truly worthless as a person and especially in regards to finding a husband. She eventually did meet a man. You know what she did? She told him fairly early in their getting to know each other how she has been used for most of her life. This man accepted her TOTALLY and they are married! I want to encourage you to that you are worthy of a good man!

96. anna said the following at 8:20 PM on Dec 31:

@ BDB #71:

"But women who associate male initiative with unpleasant experiences might react quite negatively if a "safe" guy up and takes initiative one day without warning. Even if it's just a lunch invitation."

I think the key here is learning how to take "no" for an answer, and being mindful not to use the "safeness" as a cover to hide the fact that they're intruding on someone's boundaries. I think people (men and women) need to be careful not to confuse enthusiasm with pushiness or coercion.

There's an article called "Schrodinger's Rapist" that elaborates on this topic, if you want to Google it.

97. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 10:08 PM on Dec 31:

Thanks Laura (post 94)!

You are justified in your concerns about past porn use. I mentioned in a previous post somewhere here that when I finally started dating a few years ago I told myself that if the conversation between myself and the lady I am with turns to purity issues and when I tell them my struggle, I have to be open to the possibility that they may choose to no longer be with me. That would be tough to go through, but I HAD to allow them to make that decision. Like I said, everyone has their wants and desires in a future mate, and for some that may mean they will choose not to want to be with someone who had looked at porn. We as Christians need to allow others to make choices in line with their standards, even if it means ending a dating/courting relationship. This is the loving thing for both parties to experience.

I can confidently write the above because several years ago I ended a relationship with another gal. I hurt her bad, I wasn't intentional with her, and I led her on. Basically I did almost everything wrong in the area of being intentional that Boundless stresses that you need to do right. My decision hurt me too! But I also have to say that I believe, despite the intense hurt we both went through, that I believe I made the right decision not to pursue marriage with her. Specifics? I won't go into too much detail, but basically I saw things in her that I realized more and more that I didn't want in a mate. Some of those things could be considered trivial by others, but one or two issues would be considered HUGE by most people. I have rejected someone in my past because I looked at what my desires and needs were, and I basically decided that I didn't want to marry her. Sometime later, I told myself if I felt I had the right to reject a woman for whatever reason, then I certainly have to allow a woman to reject me beause of my porn and impurity issues. It is only fair, and it is the right thing to do for both parties.

So maybe you can see that from all that I said that I don't necessarily subscribe to the school of thought that says "the one God wants me to marry" (i.e, God has one person chosen for me and I have to wait for that person to show up in my life). I tend (notice I said "tend", not totally subscribe to) more towards the view that God allows one or more suitable people to be available to you to choose to marry, and it is not a sin whom you choose, as long as it is in line with His Word (of course this could boil down to a fight about predestination vs free will, but that would be unnecessary in the long run). It is NOT a sin to reject someone because you are troubled by their past, even if it is not an issue today in that person's life.

(BTW to all the Calvinists or whomever out there who just want to argue or debate, please don't try to engage me in a debate about the details of my previous paragraph (God's choice of a mate vs. my choice), because I will not read your post or respond to you. I don't hate you, but I just don't care to engage in debates that I consider secondary and trivial).

A few years ago I came across a book in a Christian bookstore about a man who was engaged to be married. He then suffered a crippling injury. The woman he was engaged to decided that she didn't want to be with him anymore. She made a choice thankfully before they married, but still it was a painful choice to him (I don't recall if the book stated anything about what was going on in her mind and heart). Of course the Lord may bring/allow us to be with someone who has things that we thought we couldn't live with, but somehow we find that we can. Other times there are things in a person's life that we just decide we want no part of, and I think we need to let ourselves off the hook in that regard and not feel guilty. I know this may strike some/many Christians as selfish and shallow, but let me say that I am not talking about divorcing someone. Some people talk about having a list of red-flags ("can't stands" in the realm of eharmony - not an endorsement BTW).

But I do have to confess that there are things in my fiance's life that I would have considered red flags, but for some odd/God-imparted reason I don't find them huge anymore. Why? Well, I love her and I also CHOSE to ask God to help me in loving her!

So Laura, feel free to make a choice that you are comfortable with, at peace about, and most importantly, in line with Scripture.

98. BDB said the following at 10:42 PM on Dec 31:

Interesting article anna. Though it is focused on approaching strangers.

It's possible to encounter the same range of responses from a pool of people that have been volunteering together for some time. In other words, people who've had pretty much the same interactions over several months; not strangers.

99. BDB said the following at 11:15 PM on Dec 31:

In fact, I think the article would be an excellent topic for Boundless podcast round table discussion. At least two of the people on the round table should be among those who think men in general are too passive.

100. Jo said the following at 1:50 AM on Jan 1:

100

Jack 89,

"You are utterly free to indulge in psychoanalyzing me based on my posts. I will not take that liberty with you."

I totally understand your aversion to being 'psychoanalysed', but the truth is that there are people who have a lot of knowledge about the way human beings typically think and act. That doesn't mean that they know you inside out and it doesn't mean that they'll always be right - or that it will always be appropriate to give their opinions - but it does mean that they might spot things in your behaviour that might be worth thinking about. For what it's worth, I think Anna made some good points, but of course you're the only one who can weigh them up and decide whether they're accurate. You don't seem to be weighing them up though, you seem to be dismissing them out of hand, which of course is your choice.

"But if you really want to make a positive change in the world, maybe trying to talk some sense into these romance and looks-obsessed Christian women would go a lot further than telling one guy "you need help".

The only person you have any control over is yourself. Whether or not those women change is their business, not yours. I'm not for a second discounting that other people's behaviour affects our own - of course it does, and you've obviously been really hurt, I'm not dismissing that. But in the end you are responsible only for yourself, and however understandable your anger towards shallow women might be, it isn't helping you.

I do feel for you, but it seems like whenever someone on here tries to help in practical ways you reject it. This probably isn't the best place to address anything properly. But I agree with Anna that you should find someone to talk to in your real life, because whether or not your bitterness is your fault, it needs to be dealt with. You aren't a victim of your circumstances, you're a child of God, made in His image and adored by Him. You deserve better than this.

Contributors

About Us

Relevant Boundless Articles

SUBSCRIBE VIA EMAIL

Newer Post | Older Post