Fishing for Commitment
by Motte Brown on 12/14/2009 at 4:19 PM
John Thomas's articleabout leaving your church for a bigger one to increase you chances of finding a mate reminded me of a question I asked Carolyn McCulley in an interview for the Boundless Mentor series a few years ago. Except that the issue wasn't the size of the church, it was the teaching.
Boundless: Carolyn, you were talking about how you were thankful you go to a church that challenges young men to commit. What would you say to young women who attend churches that don't emphasize commitment? Would you advise them to leave the church and go to a church that does challenge young men?
Carolyn McCulley: That's such a broad stroke, that I'm not sure if I would presume to give an answer like that. But I would encourage two things. One would be to humbly take concerns like that to the leadership and just ask if there's a way to serve, if there's a way that you can help, if there's a plan. I'm sure the leaders are probably already aware, but it's always nice -- and I think Josh could speak to this -- that if somebody carries a concern or burden, that they come willing to offer to serve in some way to help with change.
Scripture tells women that we have a very powerful tool, and that is directing our words at our Father in Heaven and praying, and praying for change and living Godly lives. Because it's a promise that that combination of prayer and modeling will affect those who are around us.
So in that situation, I would say first that if you are in that church, then you prayerfully approach the leadership and ask how things could be changed, and then spend a lot of time in prayer. In fact, I would pray before going to the leadership. Pastors everywhere hear critiques constantly. It's a matter of "This doesn't serve me, and that's not my preference, and I feel this way strongly about something." And so to go with the servant mindset of "I want to help, I want to serve, I want to contribute," would make a big difference.
A decision to leave your church shouldn't be taken lightly. And as both Carolyn and John mention in their responses, prayer and seeking the counsel of others is the best way to proceed.
1. Blue Sarah said the following at 4:17 AM on Dec 15:
1
I remember that interview.
2. Darren said the following at 8:37 AM on Dec 15:
2
This is a good question.
I attend a church where the men are allowed to act like boys. It's not that they are promiscuous or date casually, but instead, they don't really take on responsibility. They hang out together and pretend to be spiritual, while indefinitely putting marriage and dating on hold. Kind of like a Christian "Bromance."
In the meanwhile the single women at the church are left wondering about whether it will ever be "God's Will" that they get married. Women who want to get married, are labelled as "obsessed with marriage" and unspiritual.
Behind closed doors some time has been spent discussing the culture at my church, but unfortunately the church leadership is too afraid of change.
It's a different kind of "failure to emphasize commitment". I certainly would support the notion that prayer and talking to leaders at the church, but don't expect radical change. Unless you're at a church plant, the culture at your church is something that has taken years to develop. Even if there is a desire to change the culture, these things don't happen overnight. Ultimately, you may end up leaving this church, the important thing to remember is that, just because you switch churches because of marriage doesn't mean your unspiritual or immature, or obsessed with marriage.
3. Bernie said the following at 8:57 AM on Dec 15:
3
I'll be honest, it bothers me a bit that articles in Boundless history have felt really quick to say it's okay to switch churches for the hopes of finding a spouse. It's good to hear articles like this that have something on the other side of that.
In Matthew 6, Jesus is telling us not to worry about things, because the sparrows get taken care of by a God that loves us more than sparrows. So in Matthew 6:33, He says If we seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, then all these things will be added unto us. We just have to seek HIM first. So to me, if God has someone planted at a church that's considered a "dry well" for singles, but he still put you in that church for the kingdom, then we're being obedient by staying planted in that church. The hope for marrying should be a "faith in God" thing more than a "church hopping and doing it my way" kind of thing. I mean, are we trying to contribute to the body, or leech from it?
My church has had a pretty weak college ministry for a long time, and there aren't a lot of single young women, but I didn't church hop my way out of leadership. God provided through college. He can provide through the workplace. He can even provide on a visit to a coffee shop while meeting with an accountability partner.
I'm definitely not saying that we need to be inactive and expect God to drop Mr/Mrs. Right in our lap. I'm just saying that he doesn't need us to uproot ourselves from a church in order to do that.
4. Trisha said the following at 11:28 AM on Dec 15:
4
The main reason a person should be going to church is not to find a spouse but to grow in their Christian faith. Relationships of any kind....friendships with the same gender and plunotic realationships with members of the opposite gender....can happen by meeting people at church but that shouldn't be the main reason you goto church.
5. elena said the following at 12:04 PM on Dec 15:
5
Darren (2)
I am troubled when a lack of interest in pursuing marriage is equated with acting like a "boy" or "girl" instead of a man or woman. I guess I extrapolate this in my own mind to mean one is less of a man or woman while one remains single, or that someone who doesn't ever marry--yet devotes him or herself to the Lord and His family--cannot hope to be a man or woman of the same stature as those who are married. I'd be interested in your thoughts on the subject.
6. Morghan said the following at 2:02 PM on Dec 15:
6
I think another thing we as singles need to think and pray about is what is our true motivation? Are we leaving a church because they are unsound or are we, in the flesh, trying to "help" God find us a spouse? What makes anyone think God is going to bless church hopping?
7. Robby Hall said the following at 2:13 PM on Dec 15:
7
It's been my experience in my church that many of the women don't want to commit. Not sure if it's fear of settling or what but I have often heard the phrase uttered "I'm not looking for anything serious right now".
8. Nicole said the following at 4:03 PM on Dec 15:
8
I loved reading your comment, Darren (comment #2), because what you described sounds EXACTLY alike the young singles at my church are! The young men have the "bromance" thing going on, and seem completely uninterested in the women.
On the other side of the metaphorical Jr. High gym, we young ladies stare at them in disbelief, wondering if there's something wrong with us that the boys would rather be with each other than interact with us in any way.
I can't figure out exactly why this is, because our young singles services and meetings have covered topics such as "How to Recognize God's Mate for You" fairly recently, encouraging the young men that there is nothing wrong with pursuing a woman for a wife. I think my church is trying to change, but the boys aren't taking the bait yet.
9. Andrea-Elena said the following at 4:52 PM on Dec 15:
9
Darren and Nicole:
Sounds like your churches' dudes need a good dose of Mark Driscoll!!
10. Darren said the following at 8:43 PM on Dec 15:
10
#5 Elena
Not saying anything is wrong with wanting to be single. . .for the right reason. If only it was because they were devoting themselves to the Lord. If this was the case, we would have a church full of potential pastors and missionaries. Unfortunately, Nicole #8 has it right, these clearly are not men, they are "boys," (at least at my church). We have unfortunately, raised a generation of "boys," who choose to remain single, because they are immature and don't want to embrace responsibility. They cling to the notion that they are "too immature" and "not ready" for marriage, using it as psuedo-spiritual prop, when in fact, they are simply having too much fun hanging out with guys--doing the "Bromance" thing.
One area in which we (my church) have failed them, is that they haven't taught these boys how to be men. How do you become a Christian man of integrity and a man of commitment. This clearly means changing the culture of a church. This would be difficult to do in one year, much less in even more time. Not impossible, because with God nothing is impossible. Nevertheless, it isn't easy.
I genuinely feel bad for Christian sisters who are made to stumble, because the culture of their church. I certainly do "get it" that some churches worry about the effects of having too much dating going on amongst their young singles. But, avoidance is not really an option either. Rather than encourage this kind of Peter Pan "Lost Boys" culture, we should be training our young men.
Failing that, it seems only humane to acknowledge that sisters who want to get married and have children, should not feel guilt ridden for trying to find a church with a more healthy culture, one where commitment and responsibility are encouraged.
11. Kelly-1 said the following at 11:54 PM on Dec 15:
11
Robby Hall -
"Not sure if it's fear of settling or what but I have often heard the phrase uttered "I'm not looking for anything serious right now"."
Dear Robby, let me translate that for you.
It means "I don't see you as marriage potential." Or "I have my eye on someone else."
MOST women are looking for marriage from their mid-teens. When they say they're not looking for anything serious, it's to let people down gently. Or even if they say it, if the right man came along, she would change her mind in an instant.
12. Dana said the following at 1:33 AM on Dec 16:
12
Well said Bernie! I am patiently waiting on the Lord for a wife while seeking first His kingdom and its righteousness. I realize that she wont be dropped in my lap and have no reservations about initiating but there arent any evident prospects on the horizon. I think its important that we refuse to trust our limited judgment and be lead by the Spirit in all areas especially those dealing with relationships with opposite sex. I believe He is trying to teach us singles to embrace this season in our lives while using us to fulfill purposes that he has uniquely designed us to fill. Even if this season ends up being a lifetime of singleness, I am convinced His grace is sufficient! Oftentimes, I remind myself that God gave Adam a job before He gave him Eve.
Best to all!
13. Tami said the following at 10:57 AM on Dec 16:
13
Darren (10) wrote: "Failing that, it seems only humane to acknowledge that sisters who want to get married and have children, should not feel guilt ridden for trying to find a church with a more healthy culture, one where commitment and responsibility are encouraged."
Thanks for putting into words the answer to a question that was forming in my head: Can we really call a church that does not foster an environment of commitment and responsibility "healthy" and "doctrinally sound"? Because that lack of training likely isn't *just* occurring among the unmarried young adults; the lack of training on commitment probably pervades the whole church.
I'm not talking about exalting marriage above all else. But if there's a lack of balance in attendance (e.g., NO young adults aside from you and a couple others attend; or the church is 75% female), or if there are tons of "people of eligible age" and barely any of them are marrying (not just dating... there can be a LOT of dating with zero commitment), one might ask God, "Are we missing something in our teaching and training and raising of disciples?" Again, not that marriage EQUALS discipleship, but discipleship necessarily entails commitment and responsibility. If there is little evidence of either, then the church has a problem that goes FAR beyond the issue of marriage.
14. Sarah P. said the following at 11:06 AM on Dec 16:
14
Dana (#12) said: Even if this season ends up being a lifetime of singleness, I am convinced His grace is sufficient! Oftentimes, I remind myself that God gave Adam a job before He gave him Eve.
It is interesting you would say that, because I've been meditating quite a bit over the last few years on a verse from Proverbs:
"Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards build thine house" (Prov. 24:27).
I had been begging God daily for years to tell me what He wanted from me. When I graduated college, it was as though I knew that I wasn't going to get married in the next 2-3 years, because God wanted me to study filmmaking. I didn't like to hear that. At all.
But that verse helps me make sense of it. It makes sense to get direction lined up before choosing a life partner (or being chosen as a life partner).
15. BDB said the following at 12:12 PM on Dec 16:
15
Kelly-1 (#11) wrote:
>>It means "I don't see you as marriage potential." Or "I have my eye on someone else."<<
>>Or even if they say it, if the right man came along, she would change her mind in an instant.<<
You know, I think this is a mistake women are making.
Facebook provides interesting insight into peoples lives. There are women at church who post all these pictures of their various fun social activities. It looks like they are dating someone.
Then, slowly, quietly, it comes out that they're not really, but there's a guy in the group their hanging out with who they HOPE will ask, but he hasn't yet...and in the mean time they aren't going to settle for another man who approaches them. They're just going to keep hanging out in his
haremsocial group.And what I see is that guy has a dozen women competing for his attention. He can decide to put on a social event, and at least a half-dozen women will jump at the chance. He never has to choose because he has a seemingly unending supply.
I think that women should seriously, seriously, prayerfully consider ALL the men around them. Women here complain that all the men go after the pretty girls, but it's quite clear that many women do the exact same thing. In a perfect world a mentor would come alongside these men and tell them to pick one so these other two dozen women can get on with their lives.
Heck, if someone thinks that specific men aren't preparing themselves adequately, she can always ask a question. I remember a story my grandfather told about cleaning houses. There was a girl whose room was always a mess. Apparently my grandfather told her that she would never get married if she didn't learn how to keep her room clean. Interestingly enough, her room was always clean after that.
So, if you believe a man is not working a career adequate to support a family, instead of just rejecting him because it's not good enough, ask him how he would support a family with the job he has. Then let him answer. If he laughs it off and says he's not worrying about that for 10 years, you're right to turn him down. If he responds by outlining a plan to get from here to there, consider the possibility that careers are something that grow over time, and maybe one's expectations are too aggressive and unrealistic for their age. Your specific question might challenge him to get his act together.
But don't make the mistake of assuming that because someone is not already perfect that it means they are unwilling to make adjustments. To pick a superficial example, if a man is not dressing stylishly enough for you, and that's the only reason you're rejecting him, you can do two things.
First, search the Scriptures and find examples of where God endorses the idea of looking on the outward form instead of the heart (hint: good luck finding any).
Second, ask him if he ever shops at a store you like. If not, you can offer to go with him if he ever wants to shop there. But be willing to follow through if he comes back to you and asks you to go. And keep in mind that MANY married women do all the clothes shopping for their husbands. Might as well start practicing now.
16. Anonymous said the following at 12:29 PM on Dec 16:
16
"We have unfortunately, raised a generation of "boys," who choose to remain single, because they are immature and don't want to embrace responsibility. They cling to the notion that they are "too immature" and "not ready" for marriage, using it as psuedo-spiritual prop, when in fact, they are simply having too much fun hanging out with guys--doing the "Bromance" thing."
This will probably sound sexist, but it based on my observations from a number of churches. In my experience, among young adults, single men are much more interested in worshipping and serving God than single women are. Selfishness is a major curse for young adult single women. Perhaps this why you see men congregating together in church and fellowship settings, while women sit around thinking about themselves and how sad it is that no guy will "step up" and marry them.
Don't equate godliness with selfish desires. Glorify God and stop worrying about the rest of it. That is what godly guys find attractive anyway.
17. Katie P. said the following at 12:39 PM on Dec 16:
17
Robby Hall-
Here is another translation (I know, girls can be confusing :)
Although Kelly-1's observation may be correct, another possibility is that the woman in question may, in fact, actually not be ready for a serious committment. While there are many girls who do want to get married from a young age, there are also quite a few who see this as something that they will do when they are "older" (this age can vary a lot). On the bright side, at least be thankful that the girl is self-aware enough to know this about herself, and won't waste your time when you could be pursuing someone else!
18. Matt said the following at 1:35 PM on Dec 16:
18
Anonymous,
I believe that you are quite mistaken. If anything, I'd say that both genders have a mix of those interested in serving and those not. However, I'd be more inclined to say that women are more willing to serve.
Every year when we are putting on a camp for foster kids it is a struggle to get enough guys to do camp. At the place that I tutor, there are only 3 guys out of the 24 tutors. It is just alot harder to get guys to be interested in serving others and not goofing off.
19. Daniel B said the following at 3:30 PM on Dec 17:
19
<< Dear Robby, let me translate that for you.
It means "I don't see you as marriage potential." Or "I have my eye on someone else." >>
It can also often mean "I'm scared of commitment."
<< Not saying anything is wrong with wanting to be single. . .for the right reason. If only it was because they were devoting themselves to the Lord. If this was the case, we would have a church full of potential pastors and missionaries. >>
Pastors and missionaries are more devoted to the Lord then someone who God has called to a 9-5 job?
20. Daniel B said the following at 3:31 PM on Dec 17:
20
<< I am troubled when a lack of interest in pursuing marriage is equated with acting like a "boy" or "girl" instead of a man or woman. >>
When I was in college, a woman at my church who was on staff with the college ministry and to whom I often came to for advice about girls I liked told me once "A lot of the girls in this group tend to assume a guy has no interest in pursuing just because he didn't pursue HER specifically. I think you all are doing a good job of it."
Ladies, just because a guy doesn't choose take a risk on you doesn't automatically mean he's scared to put himself out on a limb. It might just mean he's doing it for someone else.
Unfortunately it's going to seem this way to girls as long as they are told that women of God are "supposed" to act totally disinterested, and then the guy ends up taking a risk on someone else who actually acts like she wants to be pursued instead of giving "back off" signals.
21. VV said the following at 11:58 PM on Dec 18:
21
wanting to be married is not sinful, comment number 16. it is not selfish, it is not wrong. God gave us marriage because it is something we should do.
This sexism game is wrong, women and men both make plenty of mistakes in the area of either pursuing or wanting marriage.
I personally think that we spend too much time and energy focusing on marriage as a goal, when really, if we were focusing on serving God in whatever he would choose for us to do (which CAN involve pursuing marriage), we would find marriage along the way.
I am exhausted from reading articles and listening to sermons on dating and courtship and marriage, and trying soo hard not to idolize this concept, and I really think that if I put this much emotion and thought into another area, I could serve God so much more fully. This doesn't mean cutting off ideas or thoughts of marriage, but realizing that God clothes even the lilies of the field, and he will take care of me.