The Bachelor Syndrome: Too Ingrained to Change?
by Thomas Jeffries on 11/10/2009 at 3:31 PM
Relationships -- at least successful ones -- are full of give and take, adaptability and compromise. Most of us have heard jokes about leaving the seat up or whether the toilet paper should roll "over" or "under," but sometimes those annoying little habits can turn into romantic dealbreakers when one or both parties refuses to change even a little bit.
I remember several years ago having a conversation with a single coworker about the available bachelors we both knew. She was in her mid- to late-20s at the time, and I mentioned a never-married guy who was probably pushing 40. While this young woman was eager to meet that special someone, she still seemed hesitant. Pressed further, she said it wasn't the age difference that concerned her, it was the fact that this man -- nice as he was -- had spent more than half his life as a single adult.
"Most men that age," she said, "are too set in their ways."
She wasn't opposed to dating somewhat older men, she said, but experience had taught her that many longtime bachelors have developed habits they are reluctant or even unwilling to alter. Simply put, when you've lived on your own for some 20 years, you're bound to settle into a routine or two or 27.
I've made sweeping generalizations before, so I'm not about to do so now. Besides, since I got married at 26, I'm not able to address this topic based on my own experience. So I'll ask you, dear Boundless readers -- do you agree with this sentiment? Do you think that singles, male or female, become more resistant to change as they get older?
Now, lest you think of this post as yet another depressing reminder from Boundless of how hard it is to find a spouse once you've passed age 40, I hereby give you hope: Remember that coworker who passed on dating the fortysomething guy? Well, that same man later met a single mom with two kids and is now very happily married.
Did he likely have to make a few compromises as he made the transition from bachelor to husband and father? No doubt he did, but isn't that what healthy relationships are all about?
101. EJ said the following at 3:20 PM on Nov 12:
Hey elena,
"Annoying traits of family and friends"...you wouldn't be think of anything like, o say...leaving papers everywhere on the floor...or were you refering to me not answering my phone? :P
102. a said the following at 4:48 PM on Nov 12:
yes, men and women get more set in their ways the longer they live as singles. I feel sorry for both guys and gals who are older singles, wanting to get married...and getting more stuck in their ways every day.
My older sister is in her 30s. I know she wants to get married. But I have definitely seen that she has become more and more inflexible the longer that she's lived alone as a single. It will be very hard on her after living alone so long to be flexible enough to marry or to even find a guy that she would feel like she might be able to really get along with.
103. Jeni said the following at 4:58 PM on Nov 12:
First, I'll second Tami #96:
"Robby (86), trust me, some of us have dated the "pushing 40" guys -- after *they* pursued *us* -- and gotten dumped because we weren't "something" for them, either. (And unfortunately for me, that "something" is a mystery, so I can't even learn from it.) So it definitely goes both ways." - so very true.
Second, I've seen both men and women set in their ways young and old, with housemate and without housemates. I've seen both men and women get over themselves and learn to be flexible when that "right one" comes along. I've also seen both men and women who stay in their set ways life.
Third, most of these comments make me feel like there is no hope for the over 30 single person. And that is just great.
104. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:54 PM on Nov 12:
farmer Tom (88): Many of us have been dancing without encountering, let alone being aroused by, scantily dressed women. The reality of dancing is that the amount of body contact depends heavily on the style, from club-style (lots of alcohol-fueled contact) to acrobatic rock-and-roll (with much less contact; more akin to gymnastics). Dances are much more about romantic than sexual attraction, excluding the club scene.
You ask "what exactly does a dance have to do with finding a marriage partner?" and one of the answers (in line with Boundless teaching ;-)) is that it allows you to find out which girls are willing to follow a man's lead, and which men are capable of leading. (Note that this doesn't apply to club-style dancing, where each partner moves independently). Men discover very quickly which girls are determined to do things "their way", as it simply doesn't work!
It is true, however, that most Christians considered the arrival of public dances, and dancing between unmarried couples, as a Bad Thing, and generally immoral. Many churches still do, and I have certainly seen much dancing that falls into that category. Not all, however, and in my experience it depends on the man to lead in a chaste fashion, at which point dancing is no more immoral than going for a walk together.
105. k. said the following at 7:27 PM on Nov 12:
I'm so glad I read this thread tonight. I needed a laugh, and farmer tom was there for me!
On a practical note: life is constant change. While years give you time to establish habits and patterns, that doesn't mean you're doomed to stick with them forever. Inflexibility is more a personal trait than a chronological one.
Jeremiah, maybe reframing your thoughts would help. Who says these women were with "some loser guy," or gave up, "the best of their youth"? First of all, how do know the guys were losers? Maybe they just weren't right for each other, and it took a while to realize it. Second, it's ridiculous to talk about "the best of your youth" when you're only 32.
Back to the laughs...a (102) also gave me one. Thanks, a!
106. Kelly-1 said the following at 7:38 PM on Nov 12:
BDB - thanks for your wise words, about choosing battles carefully with family. You're right.
You also said:
"Some women are literally too small to pull the cord on a lawnmower and get it to start."
This reminds me of my first lawnmower. I inherited it from my grandmother; she couldn't push it any more. I could NOT start it, no matter how hard I tried. I'd place one foot on the mower, both hands on the rip cord, pull it as HARD as I could. I ended up with so many blisters... and it would never start.
I resorted to running down the street to my bro-in-law and asking him to help me.
These days, I just borrow his lawnmower instead. I can start that one. ;)
DannieA - "Yes some roommates are good, however, the ones that don't....well that is a nightmare life. "
I hear you. Your home is meant to be a sanctuary from the outside world... but when you have bad roommates, you resort to hiding out at work or school. I'm much more willing to work the 60 hour week when I don't want to go home!
107. Kelly-1 said the following at 7:42 PM on Nov 12:
Jeremiah said :
"I try to be fair, but somewhere at my core I am mad at these women for giving some loser guy, who didn’t have the same intentionality for marriage, the best of their youth and then giving me (IMO, the quality guy) the used seconds. I know this is terrible attitude. I’m just very suspicious of single women my age. "
Likewise, I'm very suspicious of single men my age. But then I take heart from posts like yours. Like you, my history of dating is limited. My longest-term relationship has lasted all of 3 months in person. (And then 3 months of painful long-distance break-up!) I've never fully committed to a dating relationship because I haven't been in one that has lasted long enough.
And there have been times when I've been willing to put in the effort and he hasn't, or vice versa.
What it comes down to is that I WON'T be giving my future-husband "used seconds". There is a lot I have held back. Not as much as an innocent 19-year-old with no dating history, but there are many things I am saving for marriage.
Jeremiah - "am I also now too bitter to be a good husband and father"
I struggle with the same question.
I can only tell you what I've observed in my world. So many of my friends got married young and never seemed to have the 'relationship struggles' I have. They were lucky. They met someone right for them early on.
We obviously haven't dated a 'right' person. So with that comes the pain, the baggage, the loss of faith in relationships.
But watch your older friends who (finally!) get married. Look at how DIFFERENT they are with this one person, compared to anyone else they've dated. This time, it works. Those old issues just fade away.
That's what I have hope for. I have baggage, so does he. But all those issues only reared their heads when it was WRONG. What amazing things can God do when it's RIGHT?!
108. farmer Tom said the following at 8:22 PM on Nov 12:
99. Benjamin,
sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm the same in the real world as I am on this blog.
As for your uneducated comment. I'll leave that for others to decide. Want to compare current reading lists? You're right, I do not have a piece of paper from some "institute of regurgitated information"/"society of indoctrination" which cost thousands of dollars, so yes technically I'm uneducated.
109. farmer Tom said the following at 8:31 PM on Nov 12:
100. DannieA,
Just curious. Ever asked any of the guys who went to your "western two step" dances if they got sexually aroused by the women in tight jeans???
How about this. Ask the guys here, if dancing has ever led them to have impure thoughts????
110. BDB said the following at 8:55 PM on Nov 12:
Kelly-1 (#106) Re: lawnmowers
Ah, I feel like it was worth the extra $$$ already!
111. skp said the following at 9:23 PM on Nov 12:
Benjamin
I don't always agree with Farmer Tom's opinions or his blunt way of saying things either.... but-"uneducated"???.
Farmer Tom has a very conservative Christian world view. Are you saying that liberal views are educated and conservative ones uneducated?
112. Jethro said the following at 9:29 PM on Nov 12:
Farmer Tom (#108),
According to your statement you are in fact uneducated. At least in the common understanding of the word. A lack of education however, does not mean you are unintelligent. Certainly though you lack the nuance of someone who has been exposed to a broad range of ideas.
113. Trevor Dolby said the following at 7:57 AM on Nov 13:
Jeremiah (84): There's nothing wrong with feeling mad about being given “the used seconds” - it's a perfectly normal reaction, and you should not try to force yourself to ignore such feelings! There's nothing anywhere in the Bible that says Christians must accept “the used seconds”, so there's no moral reason to try and force things.
I suggest you ignore the women who match the description you gave, and focus on those who still have something complete left to offer. This may mean widening your target age range, especially downwards, but it would be better to do that than try to build a life with someone who gave some “loser guy ... the best of their youth”.
(Note that this may be harder than it seems – you need to be able to offer the younger ones some reason to consider you, which could involve a lot of work)
114. Andrea-Elena said the following at 9:47 AM on Nov 13:
There are 30-something women out there who have yet to marry and who are still virgins. (I am one of them.) Faboo women who just haven't found the right match. And they are still hoping. So, Jeremiah, don't give up hope!
115. Tami said the following at 10:21 AM on Nov 13:
Regarding "used seconds": I hope that we would be giving each other the grace to recognize that we ALL fall short of the glory of God, in some area of our lives or another, and that, due to our nature as sinners, there will likely be something ugly in our pasts. (To some, "ugly" might mean "he/she kissed someone else," and to another, "he/she had innumerable casual partners.")
Yes, you don't have to be the life raft for someone who has carelessly banged up their boat on the shores of life. And yet, if someone is truly repentant, I would hope that instead of seeing past sins as "used seconds," we might see that as "redemption," especially if the person has taken active steps to turn his or her life towards Christ, and has a pattern of victoriousness in Him.
'Tis all.
116. DannieA said the following at 11:04 AM on Nov 13:
Farmer tom,
I can assure you I never took a poll of the guys at the country western 2-step place. Considering most people married people they met there, I found it quite charming.
Do I think men get aroused by dancing with a woman....well if they're dancing night club bump and grind or latin salsa, then yeah I'm sure they have.
I guess my point was that not all dances are the arousing type.
117. farmer Tom said the following at 12:15 PM on Nov 13:
112. Jethro,
By who's definition.
I have completed two years of college. I am currently reading several different books in my spare time(ha).
Do you mean uneducated like Bill Gates(a college dropout) or Rush Limbaugh (also a college dropout) or Thomas Edison (who never finished high school).
You mean uneducated like those guys right?
118. Carol said the following at 7:25 PM on Nov 13:
Re comment 74 and 106: Totally off topic, I know, but I and my two sisters had a lawn-mowing business when we were teenagers. We were the oldest children, and SOMEONE had to mow the yard, and the neighbor's yard, and the yard of the cranky old lady down the street. We were able to start most of the pushmowers ourselves, even with pull cords. And, for the record, self-propelled mowers are annoying. I would just as well push a mower with my own power than have to turn it off and on while maneuvering it around.
Riding lawnmowers, however, are the best.
119. Ted Slater said the following at 9:04 PM on Nov 13:
I have an alternative to the traditional pull-start gas lawn mower: an electric mower. Starts up with a pull of a lever.
I actually have used my electric mower (purchased from Lowe's, so it's not hard to find) for a few years. Never have run over the cord. :-)
120. BDB said the following at 11:27 PM on Nov 13:
Ted (#119) - the previous owner of my house had an electric mower which he said worked fine for the size of the yard. In researching them, I discovered that there was a battery-disposal problem with some of the units, and more worrisome, the specific models seemed to get discontinued rather quickly.
But my Toro recycler will mulch, which means it leaves grass clippings all over my driveway and patio. It also meets the more stringent air-quality standards. But most important, I can mow wet grass...if I forget to shut off the sprinklers or something...
But for some sizes of lawn, electric would be great.
121. farmer Tom said the following at 11:13 AM on Nov 14:
I have over 4 acres of lawn.
You want to attack that with your electric push mower, be my guest.
On second thought, Ted, you're a welcome guest at the farmer's home any time, and we will let you run the zero turn mower to your hearts content. Only takes about 4 hours, each time we mow the grass.
122. Jacob M. said the following at 11:37 AM on Nov 14:
Regarding Jeremiah's concern about the "used seconds," I think it's important for women to know that this is a factor even if you didn't give your younger years to some "loser guy." Just having standards that are too high, causing you to wait too long, is problematic enough. It needs to be shouted from the rooftops to women that they're better off in the long run taking what they can realistically get in their early twenties. So many of them spend their younger years holding out for Mr. Right and then become willing to settle once their biological clock is ticking and they're almost out of time to have children. At 33, the last thing I want to do is marry a 32-year-old whom I can tell just by looking at her is the type who wouldn't give me the time of day when she was 22, because she was too busy crushing on the guy who played lead guitar in the worship band and rode a motorcycle to church. It doesn't matter that she's still a virgin; just knowing that I wasn't attractive and "cool" enough for her when she was still at her peak attractiveness herself is enough of an insult-to-the-pride to make it not worth it. In my opinion, there needs to be a lot more social pressure on young women from their families and churches to settle for the guy who'd be a good provider, rather than spending the most fertile years of their lives hoping against all odds that the "exciting" guys will settle down with them and become good providers.
123. Jo said the following at 2:03 AM on Nov 15:
Jacob M,
There are so many things that annoy me about your post, but let's just stick to the bit where you claim you can 'tell just by looking' at a woman that she's not married yet because of her unrealistic expectations. Really? You can tell this just by looking? Or you can make assumptions because of your own bad experiences and bitterness?
What you said sounds an awful lot like "If a woman is older than 29, it's her own fault she's single so I don't want to know." I'm sure you have many good reasons why you're still single at 33 - why not give other people the benefit of the doubt as well?
124. farmer Tom said the following at 5:33 AM on Nov 15:
Jacob M.
Very well said.
125. Lisa said the following at 11:53 AM on Nov 15:
Re: Jacob M and post 122
There is truth in this post. I didn't marry until much later in life. I believe that yes, I did have unrealistic expectations, and they did work against me. However, instead of saying that women should be "pressured into taking what they can realistically get" I would say that women should be told early on that Hollywood's view of love and romance is garbage, and untrue, and if believed and followed, will almost certainly lead to heartache. It is society and culture that are bombarding women with the message that the lead guitarist who drives the motorcycle is the "must have" man. Also, there were men along the way that I would have given a chance to, but who rejected me--and I wasn't anywhere near 30 at the time, so it works both ways. I don't regret anything. I am happy with the marriage and family I have now, even though I didn't marry until later. Oh, and by the way, my husband does ride a motorcycle, but I have yet to ride it with him. Too chicken. I will say that, for my own daughter, her father knows how to drive a boat, and I will make sure he teaches our daughter to do the same. I want our daughter to know about and appreciate "guy" things. I am doing everything I can to make sure my daughter is around boys from a young age, and can relate to them as friends from an early age. I didn't have this, and I think it was part of the problem.
126. BDB said the following at 12:31 PM on Nov 15:
OK,Jacob M may be bitter, but notice that within the comments there's some truth to it.
Think about the women who have written comments about how, now that they're 30, they're a lot more willing to give a guy a chance if he asks.
Well, some of those guys asked at 23 and were laughed at. At 33 they have substantially more career success, and are still annoyed that at 23 it wasn't good enough.
The main flaw with this logic is that it only applies to specific individuals. If a specific individual rejected a guy at 23, then he's perfectly justified in not pursuing that specific woman at 33, even if she's still available and, frankly even if she's changed her mind.
But it's not fair to apply the same principle to other people in general because of their age. We are all subject to the sin of pride. Yes, younger women who are prideful reject men based on superficial characteristics, or because they get plenty of attention so they can be picky and later on discover that it doesn't work, and they repent. Don't compound the error by falling into the same trap of pride.
Even if someone's bad habits are set in concrete, God is fully capable of demolition work. He might need to blow up their world to get the concrete out of the way. That's the kind of thing that will happen when someone is willing to put everything on the table and specifically ask God to change them and remove any barriers that are holding them back.
(Though they may go through an uncomfortable period when they realize they have to go through the demolitions process first. You can do demolitions with explosives. Or you can think of it as the Sledge Hammer and Crowbar of the Holy Spirit.)
127. Jacob M. said the following at 1:41 PM on Nov 15:
Jo,
Yes, you can tell by looking at a woman that she was reasonably attractive in her early twenties, and if that's true, it's safe to assume that she turned down some good opportunities. A reasonably attractive girl in her early twenties has her choice of many different men. I don't want to be the guy who gets to be with her only because she finally lowered her standards after almost running out of time to have kids.
128. Vanessa said the following at 1:41 PM on Nov 15:
What about those of us who were plump girls in a skinny-obsessed world in our early 20s and got asked out on NO dates because all the guys were chasing the skeletal girls? Now that we're "past our prime" a less skeletal look is coming into vogue...doesn't mean we're any less marriageable because we weren't snapped up 10 years ago.
If a never-married guy is in his 30s and is looking for a never-married good woman who hasn't "wasted her good years" chasing after a guitar strumming, motorcycle-riding dude who didn't want to settle down...I'd suggest you start looking in your church's childrens' ministry, soup kitchen, or missionary programs for a 30 year old woman who wasn't considered "thin" enough or "pretty" enough to be married while in her 20s. We're probably just as cynical as you...because we've been waiting for men to grow up and be attracted to our personalities instead of our waistlines. Meanwhile, we've been serving at church...building careers (which we'd give up in a heartbeat to make a house a home for the right man)...buying homes and remodeling them ourselves...and generally trying to make the best out of our situations.
I wish that I had been asked on more dates (and I never turned down an acceptable date, even if I wasn't "attracted" to the guy), been engaged, and been married young. Unfortunately, that did not happen.
I know a lot of girls who got married young and made beautiful brides...but have NO CLUE how to be a wife. They couldn't cook, clean, or know how to please their husbands to save their lives...and both they and their husbands went through some miserable times together (if they're even still together).
Whoever he ends up being, my husband is going to be a very lucky man. Not only am I untouched physically, but I will also be extremely appreciative of the relationship we will have because I've been waiting for it for so long. No taking for granted here!
129. Tami said the following at 2:37 PM on Nov 15:
Jacob M, I submit that you may, in fact, have NO idea that the 32-year-old woman you see "wouldn't give [you] the time of day when you were 22." Perhaps she was *looking* for someone like you. Wouldn't it be a compliment to hear that rather than a liability?
As Jo wrote -- let's give each other some more benefit of the doubt. I find it incredibly discouraging coming here and reading this attitude of "well, she waited but now she's too old, must've been her fault" AND "well, she DIDN'T wait for me and now she's used goods."
If we keep projecting all this stuff onto each other -- no wonder we're not getting together. Seriously. It's one thing to be discerning, and another to keep letting your assumptions become your own worst enemy.
130. Trevor Dolby said the following at 4:57 PM on Nov 15:
Tami (115): There is a big difference between your examples :) (as I'm sure you're aware). The big thing, as far as I can tell, is that a lot of guys feel they have to simply suppress their feelings and try to ignore the unsavoury pasts of prospective partners; that's what I was trying to fight, anyway.
Jeremiah's feelings are in line with what most cultures have recognised to be desires built into men; if it indeed true that most men are built that way, then simply squashing feelings and proceeding to pursue a girl anyway is a terrible thing to do!
There are, of course, men who are not built that way, so all is not lost for the less-innocent :) but the majority really, deeply, desire someone who is innocent in as many ways as possible. This seems to be true for unbelievers as well, interestingly; it's just nearly impossible to get them to admit it, because there is so much cultural pressure these days to say you don't care . . .
131. Trevor Dolby said the following at 4:59 PM on Nov 15:
Jacob M. (122): If you really feel that way, then don't pursue such women. I don't mean this in a sarcastic way, but simply as an encouragement to follow your heart and not feel you have a duty to choose one of the women you described.
That leaves you with women who are >= 32 and weren't "too busy crushing on the guy who played lead guitar", and those younger than that. It doesn't sound like you know many of the first group, so you may have to focus on the second group.
I've probably mentioned before the need to compete if you're going to head downwards in age terms :), in part because you need to give the girl something to say when her friends say "why are you dating/courting/whatevering that old guy?" and the reason must be something that makes you stand out from crowd of younger guys.
The potential church-wide benefit of you doing this is that the younger guys might be forced to raise their game a little! So many posts from girls complain about the lack of younger guys being interested in "getting serious", and you picking off an attractive younger girl might make the other guys work a bit harder to acquire one (and not just think they've got all the time in the world).
Jo (123): I think he was heading towards the idea that he didn't want to marry such a women, rather than claiming some kind of ESP that allowed him to see into their pasts :)
132. anna said the following at 7:05 PM on Nov 15:
@ Jeremiah,
Don't be bitter! There are a lot of single women near your age that have never been married, or hooked up with some loser dude, but who haven't found their Mr. Right. I'm uh, speaking from experience here (the experience of being inexperienced, lol).
There are quite a few "late bloomers" who'd be thrilled to meet a guy like you. And I think that, like most people, with a little water and sunshine, you'd find your heart's healed enough to be the husband and father you know you can be. :)
133. anna said the following at 7:39 PM on Nov 15:
@ Jacob M.
"At 33, the last thing I want to do is marry a 32-year-old whom I can tell just by looking at her is the type who wouldn't give me the time of day when she was 22, because she was too busy crushing on the guy who played lead guitar in the worship band and rode a motorcycle to church. It doesn't matter that she's still a virgin; just knowing that I wasn't attractive and "cool" enough for her when she was still at her peak attractiveness herself is enough of an insult-to-the-pride to make it not worth it."
But how do you know that the 32 year-old wasn't a completely awkward wallflower from 18-30, and spent year 31 turning into someone fabulous? My single female friends (and I) after prolonged singledom, have taken steps to improve ourselves. So there's been makeovers, prayers, and focusing on what changes needed to be made to be suitable for the kind of man we wanted.
So that 32 year old that has you so annoyed might not have been the type to have rejected you - maybe she was the one you would have overlooked, until now.
It's not fair to anticipate someone's past, and then judge them for it. Or maybe she would have rejected you then, because she wasn't ready to be married.
Regardless, they can't go back in time and date the 25 year-old you. They have to date the 33 year-old you. Is it not possible to give a person a chance for who they are today, just like you want them to do for you?
Life will hand you challenges and heartache. Why cultivate it sooner than necessary by being bitter towards one woman for something another has done?
134. Carol said the following at 8:24 PM on Nov 15:
Why do Jacob M.'s comments (122) remind me of Jud Frye from Rodger and Hammerstein's Oklahoma!?
"You're too good for me, are you? I got dirt on my hands! Well, you're going to the party with me, and you'd better not change your mind."
It also reminded me of that guy who shot women in a gym because he had been rejected too many times. (Not that I think you would do that, Jacob.) http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,537004,00.html
Or maybe I'm just a tad offended because I didn't get married in my early 20's.
135. Elizabeth (from Canada) said the following at 8:39 PM on Nov 15:
Jacob M. (122): I must say, I feel a bit hurt by your comment. What about the women (like me) who haven't EVER BEEN ASKED on a single date by any Christian men? It's not as though I wouldn't be interested in a stable man who was frugal and followed God. (My high standard is the highest it can be: someone who follows God and is willing to lead. And I'm not compromising on that.) It's just that I've not been asked. And, yeah, I did have a crush (a rather unwilling one) on an "exciting" guy when I was younger, but I always told myself that even if he asked I wouldn't go out with him because he wasn't mature enough and I didn't think he would be a good provider.
As for the women who "wouldn't give you the time of day" when they were younger - can't you think they might have changed? Perhaps they now realise that they were shallow earlier, and they've matured in the mean time. Relationships are about grace.
If you're talking about social pressure for girls to give the non-exciting guys a chance and see what happens, than I'm all for it (a number of my friends did that and are happily married). If, however, you mean that girls should marry without love at a young age in order to find a husband, then I would say that smacks of desperation and using someone, and you wouldn't want to be the husband of a girl who did that, now would you?
136. James said the following at 10:29 PM on Nov 15:
Regarding the concerns over a persons previous "experiences"... I used to worry how I'd handle it, but unfortunately now I may need to worry how someone else will feel about me. The reality is none of us were ever perfect or pure(as we like to call it). At this point I'm willing to look over just about any past relationships my potential spouse may have had... What I care about is right now and going forward. I'm not going to throw away a possible future with someone just because I might have some insecure feelings.
137. jack said the following at 11:27 PM on Nov 15:
Yes you can tell by looking and attitude.
#84, #86, and Jacob M. have nailed it.
They didn't want to be the 'wife of my youth', as the Bible puts it.
Well, I won't be the White Knight of their old age.
Kids? Sorry. Slept around? Sorry. Had sex (but not intercourse) with the popular boys? Loser.
I've saved myself, despite lots of temptation and lots of offers.
I am willing TO DIE ALONE, and to do so without ever having been with a woman, before I be a 10th-chance for one of these women.
I remember the disses, the cold looks, the drop-dead-you're-not-hot-enough treatment. From my "Sisters in the Lord" - what a load.
These women, with their failed marriages and out of wedlock children now are finally willing to grace us good Christian men with the last couple of fleeting years of their attractiveness, while they lick the wounds left on them by men that excited them. What a deal!
They are defrauding God's righteous men of their proper place in these women's lives.
The desperation is getting thick enough to cut with a knife.
138. Wendy said the following at 11:41 PM on Nov 15:
Reading some men's demeaning and judgmental comments about never married women older than 30 (never mind that men also couldn't possibly reject [sarcasm intended] less exciting, quiet, introverted women for the bubbly type), truly makes me wonder what kind of men will sign up for the "Marry Well" service......
"used seconds"? "It doesn't matter that she's still a virgin"? wow, you are bitter. So easy for men to slap the label on women when they are frustrated, yet not see it on themselves. Amazing.
139. Amir Larijani said the following at 7:29 AM on Nov 16:
Jethro says of Farmer Tom:
Well...most the key policymakers and executives who helped cause the financial debacle we are facing, were educated at the finest Ivy League universities, and made policy--and negotiated business deals--with a wide range of "nuance".
Most of our Representatives and Senators--and their staffers--were also "educated" at fine universities, and also tend to craft legislation and budgets with a wide range of "nuance".
This is because "nuance" is little more than a means of obscuring the truth in order to advance one's own agenda, all cloaked in the form of "open-mindedness" and "compassion".
On a semi-humorous note, I was once in a "Formation for Ministry" class. Every Monday, a different professor would be a guest speaker for the class. One day, we had a theology professor who had a tendency to delve into feminist theology.
She intoned, "If Jewish society were matriarchal, then Jesus would have been a woman."
I couldn't contain myself: "If frogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their [posteriors] on the ground..."
Half the class wanted to run me for President, a quarter of the class wanted to run me out of the class for insulting feminists, the other quarter had their knickers in a twist because I uttered an irreverent 3-letter word in [gasp] a seminary. Horrors!
Nuance schmuance....
Farmer Tom for President!
140. FutureMrsLarijani said the following at 7:31 AM on Nov 16:
This topic has allowed a lot of bitterness to surface, has it not?
Jo has a point and Jacob M has a point.
The sad truth? Churches aren't dealing with it as they should. In the last eight months I have lost about 50 lbs. My dear fiance is sure that other guys would have come to the surface in this amount of time. He has said several times that he is glad he got me when he did. ;)
However, I know no other guys would have showed up. When it came to "prospects", it was painfully obvious that now that I was done with college the goods had been "gotten" (so to speak). I knew that my chances at finding someone decent were close to zero.
I tried e-Harmony for a few months about a year after graduating and every single one of my matches had been previously married. There was one I seriously considered, but he ended up ceasing communication. A friend of mine (from college) has found a guy on e-Harmony, oh so shockingly, he has been previously married (she has never had a relationship of any shape or form with the opposite gender).
People of the same opinion as Jacob M have a valid point.
People of the same opinion as Jo also have a point. However, as I have come to realize, there are many singles who don't know what they don't know. Boundless has many helpful articles about beauty, attractiveness, and cultivating humility. However, if churches aren't teaching the same thing singles are up the creek without a paddle.
There are many reasons to be frustrated as a single person, but the question is "What are you doing about it?" If you are looking to place the blame on others, you won't make a very good spouse and are better off single.
141. Cat said the following at 8:44 AM on Nov 16:
"Used seconds"? That is among the most insulting, arrogant, caddish, chauvinistic (do you need more adjectives, I can give you more) things I have heard someone say about women inside or outside of the church. How can you say things like that about your sisters in Christ? Is that God's love and mercy coming from your tongue? Or just your own wounded pride?
How would you feel if, as an older single man, a woman said that about you.
"Oh, I don't want those used seconds. I'll bet he dated the high-school mattress when he was younger anyways. And if he didn't some wild child who never would have settled down for any guy. Since he never looked at me then, why should he now?"
I can not believe men are saying these un-christian, religious, and very rude comments on a Christian forum. Shouldn't we be different from the hatred and bitterness of the world? It saddens me that there are men with bitter hearts like this. Would you really see the treasure of the inner workings of a woman's heart if it were right in front of you? Or would you walk away because it doesn't look as perfect as you think it should? I would personally place money on the second.
142. Amir Larijani said the following at 9:04 AM on Nov 16:
Jacob M says:
Women do need to be taught that time is not on their side: while it is possible to "have it all", it is not a realistic expectation. This is further complicated for the woman who is looking at the wrong qualities when seeking a husband. (I say this about the women, even though this also applies to the men. Still, the women have even more to lose here, due to fertility matters.)
Actually, why should you be bitter about that? That it took her 10 years to come around--and that you were the one who got her to the altar--should be a reassurance to you, if anything.
While this can sound like a nice self-justification, you need to consider the end-result: by shunning her, you are only perpetuating your own singleness. Perhaps some frank discussion needs to be had--and make no mistake, she has also paid a price for her choices--but this need not be an unworkable relationship.
Men (myself included) and women tend to be attracted to elements of beauty that--while not evil by any stretch--can obscure the larger character issues that are more conducive to successful marriages.
This is nothing new: in Proverbs 31, we read, "Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain". If men weren't distracted by matters of physical beauty, then God would likely not have to have warned us about that little tidbit. Back then, the women had little choice; it was the family of the groom that did the bulk of the choosing.
Today, women have more latitude in the marital choice, and they are showing that they are also capable of fixating on matters of attraction that are not evil, but can still obscure the matters of character that would make for a better choice.
This is why women are likely to be attracted to the "cool" guys who may not even be Christians or--worse--may have the spiritual depth of my cat litter boxes.
This is also why men are likely to be attracted to the hot babe who shows up to church only during volleyball season, than to the quiet, modest, unathletic gal who is a regular attender and would otherwise make a decent wife.
Am I saying that God only instills character in heavyset women? No. Nor am I suggesting that only the boring men are spiritually strong. Nor is it wrong to have standards.
Still, we need to take serious stock in what our "standards" are, and whether those standards are realistic.
We also need to consider the cost of "holding out" for standards that--while not necessarily wrong--are not Biblical requirements.
143. Amir Larijani said the following at 10:03 AM on Nov 16:
Jacob M says:
Why don't you look at it as her "raising her standards" rather than "lowering them"? Perhaps she is discovering what really matters, and maybe it took her more time than it should have.
But by rejecting her, you are only perpetuating your own singleness. By insisting on holding out for better--or rejecting her because she may have dissed men like yourself when she was younger--you may find yourself with the same level of cynicism applied to you one day.
144. sarah E said the following at 10:32 AM on Nov 16:
You are doing many women a disservice by taking a glance at what they look like at 32 (or any age) and assuming you know what they were like at 22.
First, I know many girls for whom 22 is not their prime...I would say more like 25ish. I also remember that at 22 I was a senior in college...and while i did have some maturity, I grew up so much in the years after I graduated. I hate to think that for any reason, someone would refuse to allow me to grow up in their mind. Sure, someone may have made some dumb choices in HS or college...but for real, allow for the fact that GOD is a God of reconciliation and growth. God molds and shapes us...you would be well to remember that. I think its a beautiful thing when one can look back and go look at how immature I was, look at the dumb decisions I made...and look what God has molded me into now.
Also, what girls are you going for? If you are going for the super hot, literally had guys at their feet kind of girl-then give us the search. However, Im in my mid twenties and know many pretty girls with good personalities who love Jesus who rarely get asked out. Just because someone is attractive does not mean she has spent her life getting asked out. I went to a small Christian school where there were more females than males. I can tell you of many attractive females who rarely, if ever got asked out. Since then, Im in an area where the ratio is more even (and in mid twenties, where guys are growing up and looking for relationships), and there are guys who I dont think really believe my roommate and I when we tell them werent always getting asked out (actually rarely...like once throughout all college for both of us) in college or were never the *attactive girl who got all the attention.*
Have you been this pessimistic and somewhat desperate for long? I would also say that girls can feel desparation a mile away. So the reason you may not have been getting the girls you were going for may have been less about what you looked like or who you were, and more about your attitude not being attractive. Cause as harsh as this is, with the attitude you are projecting here, If I had friends who did fit your criteria-attractive, but not the kind of girl who wouldnt take a look at ou before, virgin, and all around good....quite frankly, as a loving friend-I would tell them to be cautious about you and that with your attitude, you may notbe the best choice.
145. Tami said the following at 10:33 AM on Nov 16:
Hi Trevor (130) - yes I'm aware there's a large difference in the two examples I provided. :) And in providing them, I meant to show a scale, not an equally matched set of "pasts". And of course, I did not mean to imply that those two "pasts" were equally easy to work through; just that what may be relatively minor to some (e.g., previous kissing) may be harder for others to accept; and that, without minimizing the seriousness of one's past actions, grace *is* available.
Thanks for letting me clarify that.
146. Jo said the following at 11:06 AM on Nov 16:
Jacob, 127:
Wow.
For the record, I'm still in my 20s so I guess I have a few years before you'd dump me in the 'missed her chance' category, but as someone who has turned down a few really good guys in the past, I am quite offended that you appear to think any woman who rejects a decent man has 'too high standards' and therefore only herself to blame if she's still looking at 32. That is what you're saying, isn't it?
Apparently then, it doesn't matter to a guy whether a girl finds him attractive, so long as she's willing to accept that he's probably the best she can get so she might as well cut her losses. I'm sure all the good guys who asked me out when I was younger (some of whom are now married to women who actually love them) would have been much happier if only I'd had the sense to realise that beggars can't be choosers, and deprived them of the opportunity to meet someone later who was much better for them.
Enough sarcasm. The thing is, you're making it personal, you're talking about women lowering their standards to include you. But it's not about Lucy judging Mark as better than Simon, it's about Lucy recognising that Mark and Simon aren't the same, so one of them might be a better match for her than the other. Maybe neither of them are - that's how it works sometimes - and she can try and try to develop a connection with Mark or Simon but if what she's really looking for is a guy like Jacob M (since you are after all unique and have a particular mix of qualities that other guys don't have), she's just gonna have to wait, or settle for someone she can't love.
I agree with you on one thing: if lowering my standards means throwing away a list of unnecessary criteria which effectively cancels out all but fictional suitors, then I absolutely need to lower my standards. But if lowering my standards means settling for a marriage without love, then I'll pass. I honestly don't know whether I'll end up marrying someone tall or short, sporty or geeky - but I do know that our relationship will involve a certain kind of connection that just isn't going to be there with every guy I meet. Hopefully if I'm still single in 5 years the men I meet will have the sense to understand this and not write me off as a has-been who thought too much of herself when she was younger.
147. Jo said the following at 11:19 AM on Nov 16:
Amir, 143:
Well put. People do change, and especially while you're growing up and discovering who you are / deciding who you want to be, your priorities do shift. I'm not looking for exactly the same things as I was when I was 18, but in case Jacob uses that against me, there's still only one guy who I've turned down in the past but would consider differently now.
Anyway, I got ID'd on Saturday in a pub, so I apparently look 10 years younger than I actually am. Don't think I'll have too much trouble with guys like Jacob when I'm in my 30s, since they'll all probably think I'm 22 anyway.
148. DannieA said the following at 11:34 AM on Nov 16:
all i can say is "wow".
Jacob M.
sure, there are many women that dissed and now are regretting...but aren't you putting ALL women in that fryer before talking to them?
I dated anyone that asked me, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) it didn't lead me to the alter. Two guys had very high and unrealistic expectations of me (and not that did not include asking me to be a SAHM), and two that I dated I had to let go because I came to the realization that their stance on not having children wasn't going to change. So I'm not going to apologize for being 31 and unmarried because honestly I didn't turn down guys when I was in my 20s...when they finally started asking me out.
149. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:35 AM on Nov 16:
Jacob M. (127): Now I'm going to disagree with you :) I don't believe it is "safe to assume that she turned down some good opportunities" if a girl is attractive and unmarried at 32, because there seems to be a great lack of younger men who are interested/willing to pursue marriage (see Elizabeth's comment 135), and reluctance on the part of older guys to pursue younger girls.
Cat (141): I don't think you're seeing guys trying to be "un-Christian", even though it may sound like that on the receiving end :( These feelings run _very_ deep in most men, and you're seeing them bubble up to the surface here. Most cultures have recognised this, including Western society in the past, but we've become un-used to it.
I want these feelings channeled into something positive, rather than suppressed or not tallked about: any guys feeling like they don't want a more experience girl should start pursuing the less experienced ones! This will almost certainly mean the guys having to work harder, become more attractive, be more active in pursuit, expand the target age bracket, etc, but that's all to the good as far as I can see.
That would also go a long way to breaking the pattern we see: guys get turned down loads by a few girls, stop asking for years (leaving Elizabeth (from Canada) unasked), start again, and feel like Jeremiah. It's just not working, and the solution has to start with guys recognising how they really feel, and acting on it.
150. Matt said the following at 12:31 PM on Nov 16:
I must say that I'm amazed at all the bitterness in this thread by both gender's but mainly by the guys. You know what, people get rejected. It's part of life. It is no fun for sure. However, in the end you can't be getting your self-worth from whether a girl accepted your request for a date or not.
Also, there are lots of reasons why people could still be available later. I didn't date in high school because I didn't believe in it. In college, a couple years after college because I was shy/didn't have the courage. Tried once got shot down. Tried again dated for a while got dumped. Waited a year getting over that/dealing with sin issues, and then trying once again. End result, now I'm 27 and have really only gone on dates with 4 girls.
Bitterness is one of the least attractive attributes someone can have.
151. Kristen in CA said the following at 12:40 PM on Nov 16:
Ladies, just a reminder that God is a God of working against odds. If He can bring about a virgin birth, Christ fulfill the plethora of prophesies, and raise men from the dead, He can provide a wonderful husband in the midst of a cynical age. Regardless of the bitterness I've read in this thread, I still have hope and wish the same for you.
152. Mike Theemling said the following at 12:48 PM on Nov 16:
Wow. I refrained from commenting because I was curious to see how this thread would develop, and now that it has (essentially turning into a gender blame-game) I'd like to add something. Basically, a lot of tension is based I believe in unrealistic expectations and an imbalance in power.
As a 30's never married single male, I'll admit is that I myself have had those brushes with frustration and bitterness in the past with women. Honestly, I think any older single guy who tries to live righteously but is not "cool", "hot looking", etc. struggles with this. Primarily for two reasons. One, to be brutally honest, is that other than loneliness (the #1 named disadvantage of singleness among Christians, both male and female) a man's sexual needs are not met. Unlike the worldly which has no qualms about promiscuity, pornography, etc. a Christian man finds it extremely difficult to deal with those passions in a godly manner. That is why I believe in part that Paul wrote about it better to marry than to "burn with passion".
The other reason is that we (men) often find little encouragement in the Christian church. We are chastised for not being intentional and pursing (when we are) but oh by the way, give the single ladies some distance so you don't come across as being a shark. We are constantly being criticized for our adultesence, not manning up, etc. Boundless is also guilty of this at times whether intentionally or not.
One of my personal particularly hurtful experiences was a "speed dating" event which Boundless itself sponsored. I dressed nicely, tried to carry myself well, and engage every lady at the table whether I was interested in them or not. I then later e-mailed 9 out of the 40 ladies asking if they'd be interested in meeting again later. Two replied back in the negative (one saying she was in a relationship already[?], the other that the chemistry wasn't there), 6 chose not to write back at all. One actually said "yes", but all my attempts at follow up were ignored. In fact, once I met up with her face-to-face by sheer chance and asked her directly if she was still interested in meeting. She replied, "yes". But still, no replies to my e-mail. My takeaway from that event: Feelings similar to those of Jeremiah and Jacob M.
Was I "desparate"? I don't think so. 8 out of 40 ladies isn't desparate to me. Was I "too picky"? Perhaps. I did choose those I thought were physically attractive to me. Problem is in a speed dating environment you don't have the luxury of time to get to know people really well. Thus the whole "get to know someone better" really never occurs. So in this event, for guys and girls, I think that appearance played more of a role than it should have.
Despite all of this, I found the responses (or lack thereof) of most of these ladies downright rude. I even found out many months later that three of the ladies I wrote were actually friends and blogged about me thinking I was desparate or something.
All that being said, I will say that guys, including Christian guys have been programmed for idealized looks more than we should be. Air brushed magazine photos and drop dead gorgeous celebrities on TV do not help us realize that such appearances are either not realistic or the exception and not the rule. The prevalence of porn also aggravates this problem. Thus, we tend to only focus on those 9's and 10's and do not let attraction with 5's and 6's develop.
Women can be guilty of this too though via romance novels, Christian literature and movies, etc.
One big reason why some women in their 20's turn down intiations is because they receive so many. Most women who are stunningly beautiful KNOW they are. Thus they wield an enormous amount of power. They can get guys to do things for them, receive attention and praise, all for doing nothing except looking beautiful and maybe giving a smile.
In generations past this power was balanced with men because men were the traditional providers and protectors. Thus, a man's "power" usually wasn't in looks but in what he could provide for the family.
However, for better or worse (depending on your point of view), this balance of power shifted. Women could now provide for themselves. Thus, they didn't need men for provision (and also for protection). And since in most cases they don't have a strong sex drive motivating them towards marriage like men do (also because of the sexual revolution), a woman could either delay marriage with no signficant dent on her personal life, or hold out for an "ideal".
But once a woman nears around 30-ish, two things happen. One, which is debatable, is the biological clock towards children starts to kick into full gear. The other, is that the power begins to shift. The woman now begins to lose her sex appeal. The men's power though (i.e. provision) largely remains in tact.
This starts a vicous cycle. You have a pool of men who in their 30's and 40's still find appealing those women in their 20's, but because of the reasons listed above delay marriage or wait for the "soulmate". And the women in the 30+ range are now eager for marriage but most of the men either overlook them (because they now hold more power) or have a mentality of "payback" and schadenfreude for being rejected in their 20's.
Meanwhile, you have ladies who weren't asked out in their 20's because they didn't compare to the 9's and 10's feel resentment towards men. This can make them even less attractive to guys and even if a guy does show interest, there might be unhealthy suspicions (e.g. "Did he just choose me because he couldn't get a 'hottie'?").
But as Amir and others have pointed out, holding onto bitterness helps no one. It doesn't help guys or girls in their 20's/30's/40's/etc.
This bitterness needs to be faced, and rooted out like a cancer. It isn't easy, and is an ongoing process. It's not a trivial matter either. Some may say it's a stretch, but I believe that such heartaches are akin to PTSD. One is faced with a tramautic event (i.e. a series of rejections or constantly not being asked) and when something hits a nerve like a perceived rejection even when it isn't one it can set off all these emotions. I think that is what is happening here.
A pastor told me that from a guy's point of view, and as BDB (#126) pointed out that it's important not to categorize women in a certain group into one mold. True, the majority of one's rejections may have been from women in their 20's when you were in your 20's, but does that mean that all women should accept your initations? What are women whom you've never asked out guilty of?
Secondly, and this is just my own personal thought, along with pouring your heart out to God it can help to focus on contentment, even to point where you may have to "fake it" sometimes. It's a tricky balance I admit, and I'm not suggesting we deny our desire for companionship or try will it away. But rather that one focus on the positives of our past single life. All the free time we have to pursue hobbies and interests. The enormous about of mobility and flexibility. I believe that contentment is related to the whole confidence-thing that girls find so attractive. So why not focus on what you can do now? Besides, if you're a guy, you probably have more of the power now.
To the ladies, I just want to say that I've tried to put myself in your shoes at times. I ask myself, "I wonder what it is like to be solicited constantly by all sorts of guys? It must get old and tiring. How do I separate those serious about commitment from the fakers?" I also realize that perhaps because of our upbringing or what our generation has heard, you don't want to be up the creek without a paddle. You don't want to get married too young to the wrong guy, have 4 kids, then have him dump you for a "newer model" and you're stuck with no or little education and 4 mouths to feed. Maybe it isn't that, but just that you want to experience life/career/etc. and once you get married and have kids, you feel that window of opportunity will have closed. I believe a woman has the right just as much as a man does to do what she wants. It's between her and God. I just ask you that whatever you choose, you consider the possible costs and ramifications of your decision. Unfair as it may be, most guys strongly consider youth, fertility, and vitality in a mate (do a straw poll of the number of married couples you know. In how many of them is the woman significantly older [3-4+ years] than the man? I daresay less than 5%). Remember that your greatest pool of suitors and having children without difficulties occur when you are younger, not older.
Finally, I'll close with this. I don't know the age range of the woman I'll marry, or even if I'll marry at all. I will say though that as I've gotten older I can understand a bit at why God has said 'No' to me in this area of life despite my trying. One big reason is for reliance on Him. To me, I face life as a series of problems or obstacles to solve. Finding a job. Buying a home. Plugging into a church community. I analyze these problems, consider options, then execute a solution, and oftentimes, "solve" the problem. However, in this instance--my romantic life, despite my analysis, research, etc. I have not been successful and it can be very frustrating for someone of my personality type. But perhaps, just perhaps, God allows this so I lean on Him. This is one area of life I can't tackle by my own power. I wonder if I married young that I'd approach married life in the same way, not relying upon God but upon what I can do to solve the problem. That's just my thought. I cannot guarentee that everyone will know or understand God's reasons for our thwarted efforts in this area, nor is God required to tell us. But I still trust Him because I have faith that He knows what is best for me, and ultimately His glory.
153. Irene M. said the following at 1:01 PM on Nov 16:
Wow. There are some demeaning and hateful comments about older single women in here. I know that dating is hard, but it's not fair to be angry at the opposite sex (especially women you probably didn't know in your youth) for your singleness. Try to be more compassionate and realize that their youths have been just as "wasted" as yours.
154. a sassy sister said the following at 1:05 PM on Nov 16:
to amir larijani and future mrs. larijani:
Thank you both for a balanced, practical response.
155. Scott said the following at 1:20 PM on Nov 16:
A couple thoughts.
First, I see the pain in people's lives and it breaks my heart. I know what it's like- I have the same frustrations as Jacob M. in that I'm not the "exciting guitar playing guy".
However, what breaks my heart even more is that we as guys can say something like what Jacob said. There is an element of truth in what he's saying, but I think that you takes it too far, Jacob.
The element of truth is two-fold. First (I guess 1a), guys and ladies do need to really examine what they're looking for in someone, and constantly recalibrate their "wish list" to be more in line with what a good husband or wife makes. It's a growing process for guys and girls, and it sometimes takes until 30 or longer for someone to figure out what they really wanted. (The "now-me", at 24, is much smarter than the "then-me" at 15, when I realized that girls aren't evil beings with cooties. My desirable qualities and wish list is much different and smarter now.) The sooner a man or woman can realize what he or she wants and make better dating decisions based off of it, the better. These are my thoughts, so take them with a grain of salt, and a box of scripture.
Second (1b), though, when you date someone, you can't date someone because "oh they were there". You *have* to appreciate someone for who they are. If the 32 year old woman gets into a relationship with the 32 year old guy because she needs a boyfriend, and not because she appreciates the guy for who he is (and vice versa with the man and woman swapped), then I think that is a terrible thing. It is better to be single in my mind than to go date someone because I felt like I just needed a wife to fulfill that longing and loneliness. I would venture to say that it is idolatry- you're seeking fulfillment in the concept of a husband or a wife that should be God's. There needs to be a unique respect and appreciation for who God made a person to be on both ends of the relationship!
Anyway, to the second thought:
Second, forgive. Jason, I'm not going to act like I know your entire life. However, harboring anger against women doesn't do anything but hurt yourself. I've felt the exact same way, and I'm Joe McYou'reAGreatGuyBut (I've had pretty much 100% rejection), but the only thing I can control is how I respond, not how they respond. I can choose to be angry at women (and I could make the same argument you make), but I must learn to let go of my anger and put it before the cross. The only thing I get by harboring frustration and anger is a torn up heart and a bitter mind that will either severely hinder my ability to love my future wife, or severely hinder my ability to live a fulfilling single life. (I shall await what the Lord has for me in this area.)
Anyway, that's my thoughts. It feels good to vent and expose frustration and pain, and exposing frustration is not necessarily a bad thing- but the question must be asked is "what is our response knowing this? How can we now glorify God with our response? (since we are to glorify God with all that we do)"
156. Laura said the following at 1:23 PM on Nov 16:
What an interesting discussion. While I certainly would never advocate having a holier-than-thou approach to people who "have pasts" (let's face it, we all do), I would like to commend the men on this board who are looking for a woman with similar convictions and a track-record of godly living. I especially found Jack's comment (#137) comforting in way. Usually, it is the woman in a relationship who expresses feelings of sorrow and angst over a boyfriend's or fiance's past sexual misconduct. It is encouraging to see that there are men out there who are serious about purity and who would prefer that their future spouse to have not "been around the block."
Let me reiterate that we as believers need to be instruments of God's grace and mercy, and that those with past sexual experience (outside of marriage) are of NO lesser value than those who virgins on their wedding day. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But, ladies, I am on some of the guy's side on this issue. As a 21 year old (virgin) who hopes to be married someday, it is my preference and earnest desire to marry a virgin. If things don't turn out that way, I trust that God will give me grace. But after years and years of witnessing men fool around all through high school and college and then come to their future spouse and expect their fiance to be a virgin, THANK GOD that there are still some men out there who are not only serious about their own sexual purity but also the person they plan to marry. (How many non-virgin guys have you seen either on TV or among friends who want their future wife to be a virgin but they have not waited themselves? Major double-standard).
So I applaud the men on this board for expressing their desire for a woman who has kept herself, and for also continuing to keep themselves for the woman they will one day marry, Lord willing. And also, thank you guys for proving to me that there are still men out there who desire to marry a virgin (not that those who are not virgins are unworthy of marriage, we have all made mistakes. And, also, some people have had their virginity taken from them by force). It's just that for those of us like myself who have had multiple opportunities to have sex outside of marriage but said no, even at the cost of popularity and some broken friendships, it is encouraging to see that there are people out there who appreciate the struggle (men especially, because you don't hear it from them that often).
157. Loris said the following at 1:25 PM on Nov 16:
Jacob M. The eventual flip side of the single women you won't have is the 45 year old Peter Pan still attending the College and Career post-high school group and hitting on just-turned 18 year old girls. We had two of those in my parents' church. Both were intelligent, but years of living alone doing whatever they did had made them incredibly strange. (Bad hygiene, filthy houses, odd mannerisms and social awkwardness, stockpiles of teen movies starring the underage starlet du jour, etc.) The pastor had to take them both aside and strongly urge (I'm not going to say he ran them out, but it was close) them to attend another group. Neither are still at that church because their lifestyle choices made them unfit for the leadership positions they wanted. Each had a snit fit and left. There were never-married single women in their age bracket who probably would have been willing to overlook a lot, but neither pursued them. Those women are still single. They weren't feminist cat ladies, either. Not knowing their early history, I can't say what went wrong in their youth, but I can say that they were passed over by men their own age who weren't fit for them.
Don't let your heart get so bitter. I know you don't want to keep waiting, and I'm sure you've had some bad experiences. However, my dad married for the first time at 38 and it wasn't the fault of either of his two previous fiancees. It was his own immaturity and fear holding him back. Please examine yourself to see if there's a quality that is hindering your pursuit and work on it as the Holy Spirit guides you. Get someone who knows you well and is willing to be honest to do a thorough inventory of your strengths and flaws.
158. Laura said the following at 1:49 PM on Nov 16:
Jack (#137)
"I am willing TO DIE ALONE, and to do so without ever having been with a woman, before I be a 10th-chance for one of these women."
It sounds to me like you are looking for a woman with the same or similar level of spiritual level maturity as you, and someone who has not had multiple sexual partners. There's nothing wrong with saying you want that. I may need to go back and read some of your previous comments because I'm not quite sure why so many people were up in arms about what you said. It might have something to do with judging people based on their appearance. Please just be encouraged and know that there are women out there who have kept themselves. Even if they are a bit older like some other commenters have mentioned, they still do exist. And sometimes, the ladies who won't give you the time of day are the very ones you are looking for. I know it sounds strange, but many Christian women have been treated like toys by both Christian and non-Christian men in the past, and so a slightly rough (but not impenetrable) exterior tends to form. I say this from experience. I have been approached multiple times by guys who only wanted to take me to parties or to hook up (yes, these were guys in the church). Sometimes, I see all men from this frame of mind (wrong, I know, but I'm working on it). But there is a difference between a girl who won't give you the time of day because she is self-absorbed and one who is simply trying to protect herself. It may take a little bit of time and prayer to determine which one is which, but most things that are worth having take a little bit more time and effort to acquire.
159. Sarah P. said the following at 1:53 PM on Nov 16:
I was frightened when I graduated college that I wouldn't find someone solid and ambitious in all the right ways as well (thinking about what FutureMrsAmir said), but if the average age of a first marriage is 27 for men and 26 for women, you'd think that there are plenty of good people left.
Hey. I know quite a few great unmarried people. I'm 26, and I'm not freaking out yet. Although all these world-weary 30-something males are frightening me a little bit... I'm kind of hoping for someone who's been having such an adventure following God's will that he hasn't had energy left over to get bitter about life. :D Even if I'm single for life, I hope that's the kind of person I will be.
160. BDB said the following at 2:27 PM on Nov 16:
FutureMrsLarijani (#140) brings up an interesting point.
If you believe that God changes lives, then you need to accept that possibility as part of someone's life journey.
Weight loss, especially rapid weight loss, is such an example. People go from being invisible to suddenly getting attention. It's another case where it's easy to be bitter at the people who didn't ask when the individual was overweight - why be happy with their attention now when it's clear they were being quite superficial then?
This kind of bitterness is really unforgiveness, and something that needs to be taken to the foot of the Cross and dealt with. No where in the Bible does it say it's OK to be bitter forever. Instead, we are commanded to forgive others as a condition for God to forgive us.
Matthew 6:15 (New King James Version)
But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
The parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35 is instructive here.
So, if you are feeling bitter, go do business with God and say you need His help to forgive those who have wronged you.
161. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA (Formerly Dan real name) said the following at 2:47 PM on Nov 16:
Most of the last couple dozen comments typify (silly arguments) why I no longer read most comments on the web anymore.
Re: commenters here using the INSULTING phrase "used seconds"
DON'T EVER USE THAT PHRASE AROUND ME.
Way to say it Cat (post 141)!!!
162. Brittany said the following at 2:49 PM on Nov 16:
Wow, Jeremiah 84. I'm really hurt by your comment. I made some unwise choices in the past and I worry (now that I've grown closer to Jesus and turned my life around=back to purity) that I will meet a guy like you who will judge me harshly. I wonder every single day how that will effect my future marriage. I would hate for someone to label me as 'used' after years of celibacy. How cruel! I hope that the man God has for me will show mercy and grace...but I have had to decide in my heart that I would much rather be single for the rest of my life than carry around condemnation!!! I made those choices, cannot change them and refuse to let them hinder me. I am free, PRAISE GOD!
And James 136? That is very sweet and gracious of you. I'm sure God will bless that sweet attitude of yours.
163. Sarah P. said the following at 3:52 PM on Nov 16:
Mike Theemling (#152): However, in this instance--my romantic life, despite my analysis, research, etc. I have not been successful and it can be very frustrating for someone of my personality type.
Hear ya. I believe that God created marriage with a divine element that is beyond our control. You wrote a wise and excellent post, btw.
I also agree with sarah e. (#144), who said that some women don't reach their prime until 25 or so. I think I am all-around much more appealing now than I was as a college student. God has softened me quite a bit by teaching me about His love -- incidentally, through some very painful rejection. That's where we have to turn. We gotta let Him soften us, or we won't be of any earthly use to the people around us!
All right, God bless...
164. D.Williams said the following at 3:56 PM on Nov 16:
@Jack, Jacob M., Jeremiah, (of course), and even Robby Hall:
The things you guys have said may be true for some women but I am hoping you guys realize these things are not %100 true for ALL women who are of a certain age. I am not 30 yet but I'm getting close (I'm 28) and none of what you described in the above comments pertain to me. In fact, if either of you told me these things in real life; they're so off of the mark with how my life has been that it isn't even offensive to me.
You guys seem to be generally level headed, decent guys. My guess is you're allowing your emotions cloud clear thinking. Everyone is different and there is always an exception to the rule. If I were dating a man (I'm still waiting for Christian men to ask), I would want him to get to know me as the individual I am instead of comparing me to woman x,y, and z, and I would try do the same for him.
I pray and hope you guys don't miss a really great woman because you're still upset over what other women have done.
165. Jo said the following at 3:57 PM on Nov 16:
Mike 152:
Wow, that was longer than even most of my comments! But well worth reading. :)
"This bitterness needs to be faced, and rooted out like a cancer."
Amen to that.
166. anna said the following at 5:22 PM on Nov 16:
@ Mike T.
"Meanwhile, you have ladies who weren't asked out in their 20's because they didn't compare to the 9's and 10's feel resentment towards men. This can make them even less attractive to guys and even if a guy does show interest, there might be unhealthy suspicions (e.g. "Did he just choose me because he couldn't get a 'hottie'?")."
I think this is a reflection of how a woman handles blows to her self-esteem. Some people have the zero-sum mentality, where one person gets and the other person loses. But other people take the view that there's enough good stuff to go around - it's just a matter of finding it.
Meeting great guys that didn't end up choosing me didn't make me bitter towards the guys. It made me question myself, which is a different issue, but it didn't make me want to punish the next good guy I met. I figured that if I could meet one, then at least I knew what to look for.
A woman might be -wary- of a man, but that's a good thing. She should give him a chance to prove himself, he can be assured that she's valuing her worth enough to properly evaluate a guy's character and interest before presuming an attachment to him.
Some people are bitter, and sometimes they have reason to be. But it doesn't mean that a change in their environment won't change their outlook. If a person, male or female, doesn't get the kind of support and reinforcement they need, sometimes they wither a bit and forget how to trust.
Unfortunately, it's easy to lump people together. But sometimes, the loudest voices in a group aren't representative of all of them. So that bitter person isn't the spokesperson for everyone else.
I think that the person who has been bruised by love can be brought back to openness and confidence. Feeling sorry and angry towards the world doesn't have to be a permanent state.
So maybe that bitter girl at the club in June is a happy person in July, because some great guy was really nice to her and she realized life's not so bad after all!
I think we're so quick to make snap judgements that we don't give people a second look, and I don't think that fits well with Christian theology. Plus, it nearly guarantees a small sample size, which is a terrible method to determine the true likelihood of an event. Basic statistics, yanno? :)
So when you're at the next speed dating, remember that 9/40 is less than 25%, and if even 10% of those women are interested, that's going to just be 2 people. Those odds aren't good. Ask out the other 31, the one's you didn't quite click with at first, and then go from there. You don't want to miss out on Miss Fantastic, just because she had a bad hair day. :D
167. anna said the following at 5:25 PM on Nov 16:
Ok, my math parts are out of alignment. I should have said that 10% of the 9 you picked is about 1 person. Not a whole person, so maybe a very flaky one who doesn't return your calls. ;)
168. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:32 PM on Nov 16:
Dan Lilledahl (161): The Bible itself uses far harsher phrases for such things (see Deuteronomy 22 for one example). While I have to agree with previous comments about the tone of this discussion, let's not forget that we're dealing with the _true_ feelings of a lot of guys of many different ages; simply telling people like Jeremiah and Jacob M. to stop saying things isn't going to help anyone in the long run.
Laura (156): Thank you so much for posting. The reason “you don't hear it from [men] that often” is that whenever a man actually says how he truly feels, he gets a lot of very negative reactions (see above). In my observation, most men actually do feel this way, but almost none are willing to say it nowadays for this very reason. Note that I'm not addressing the validity of the reactions, but rather the effect they have.
In general, I've found that, in real life, these discussions work much better when mostly restricted to a single sex, possibly including much older married couples to acquire the opposite-sex perspective.
169. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:56 PM on Nov 16:
Looking at these comments again, and thinking about what they would sound like if spoken and what peoples' faces would show as reactions, I know that I would have stopped this conversation a while back (by changing the subject, or more brutally if necessary) if it had been taking place in my house (over Sunday lunch, for example).
This may be even more necessary here: emotions are funny things, and the Internet is a very cold place to discuss them: no-one is going to be hugged by their computer even if they obviously need comforting :( and there are no non-verbal cues to be read (like the ones that say "this is a sensitive area for me" in real life).
[Of course, I would then have brought the subject up again with the participants, but not when they're together]
170. BDB said the following at 6:56 PM on Nov 16:
Hmmm...these comments about desperation reminded me of something.
Years ago I went to a church singles event. I found myself completely surrounded by people whining about how they wanted to be in a relationship. It was tiresome. They couldn't talk about anything else.
Recently, I've had a few conversations that reminded me the reverse is also possible. This is primarly for the men who feel they've been turned down too many times. By any chance, have you disciplined yourself to never, ever talk about marriage?
Here's why that matters. Say there's a woman near you trying to figure out why you're single. So she throws out a theoretical marriage-related question in a group.
If you don't take the bait - er - I mean if you change the subject or deflect the question, she might reach the conclusion that you really have no interest in marriage. If you subsequently extend an invitation, there is nothing to distinguish you from the other men who want only a physical relationship with no strings attached. So, she might say no simply because you've given no reason for her to believe that you have any interest in committing time and resources to marriage.
(Or worse, she thinks you're avoiding the subject because you're divorced. It is not uncommon for never-married women to be uneasy when approached by divorced men.)
171. Kelly-1 said the following at 8:11 PM on Nov 16:
Woah.
Way to make an older single feel bad about herself!
For the record, I had very good reasons for turning down some of the FEW dates I was asked on in my early-mid 20's. Bad hygiene factored in 3 of them. That's probably the only non-Biblical reason I used (the others were all scripture-based reasons).
I was the classic shy wallflower and didn't "bloom" until about age 25. Of course, by then I'd missed out on the Christian guys who were seeking wives in their early 20's.
This thread has given me insight into why Christian men don't ask me out now. Maybe they look at me and think I was that "hottie who turned down guys by the dozen". Maybe they resent me for the rejections by others.
Okay, men, back to you. What can we late 20's/early 30's women do to show that we love meeting new people and weren't THOSE GIRLS when we were younger?
172. yet anotherjen said the following at 8:44 PM on Nov 16:
Thank you Mike (152) for those well-put words. Your wisdom and diplomacy really shines through.
I'm another of those girls that at 28 has never been asked out. I've lived a life of purity and service. I want to be married badly, but I want a man of wisdom and godly obedience. Nothing less. And I don't think that that is asking to much...of myself, of the man, or of God himself.
I believe in God's ability to change people but I want someone as committed to this life as I am. I want to believe that he is still out there....And I doubt he looks like an athlete or a country star. I know I'm looking for a sturdy balding guy who loves the Lord and will love me and lead our family.
The same guy I've been looking for for the last 6-8 years.
Meanwhile, I'm serving where the Lord has placed me. I've come back from the mission field to live with my parents in a location I detest! I'm trying to learn what God has for me in this place of limbo. Like Mike said, this is something I can't do anything about. I HAVE to trust God for this. And maybe that's what he wants me to learn.
173. Wendy said the following at 11:07 PM on Nov 16:
Kristen #151 - God Bless You - the most redeeming post in this absolutely hideous (I can't believe I read this nonsense thread, good grief!) thread.
174. James said the following at 11:22 PM on Nov 16:
Brittany (162) awww, thanks for the kind words, you made my evening. I've had my share of disappointments, but I'm determined to use my time as a single man to be the best I can be and improve areas in my life that need it.
175. twilley said the following at 1:59 AM on Nov 17:
I know that I am kind of an outsider here, but let me just say that I am learning a lot of new things about straight culture from these comments!
176. bob said the following at 3:48 AM on Nov 17:
Wow, the direction is moving from reluctance-to-change to bitterness and blaming. If you are rejected by somebody you like (or reject somebody who likes you), please don't keep bitterness in your hearts. Maybe you both are just unsuitable each other. Just go on with your life. This "failure" is just a part of life. But please remember that every decision you make bring consequence(s); it may include possibility of not getting married for the rest of your life.
Let's go back to the beginning.
I don't see what's wrong with wanting private space. Personally, I think sharing a bedroom may become a sort of problem to solve at my future marriage (although currently no wife-to-be in sight). However, I think it can be solved pretty easily by proper adjustment. Other little things like toilet papers can be solved by something called "management".
The other concern is about dominating spouse (or parents). I don't like both situation, and I think you all understand this. I tend to do my own things my own ways under such situation.
Those are my opinions.
177. Laura said the following at 7:09 AM on Nov 17:
Brittany (#162)
Like you, some of the comments on this board really sadden me. I'm even regretting some of the things I have said flippantly. We really ought not to act like we are in a position to judge another person, period. It is so wrong and hurtful.
Brittany (#162), thank you for speaking so candidly. Your comment about not wanting a guy to judge you harshly made something fiercely protective rise up in me. God doesn't want you to live under guilt and condemnation, and a man that is truly following after God will not either. Please be comforted by the truth that God, who loves you more than we could ever imagine, does NOT tolerate a haughty spirit. If the person is a believer, God will deal with the pride and arrogance via the influence of the Holy Spirit (and normally that person will not have peace in that area of their life until they repent). I have no doubt in my mind that you already know these things, but I just wanted to encourage you in whatever small way that I can.
You are a new creature in Christ. And if a guy doesn't recognize that, but instead treats you as "less than," you can bet your bottom dollar that God will act as your Judge and Protector in the matter.
Please be encouraged. You are free and I'll praise God with you : )
178. Loris said the following at 7:26 AM on Nov 17:
BDB #160. It's true as Mrs. Larijani and you have said, about the attention weight loss brings. I had that very struggle with unforgiveness you mentioned. Freshman year of college, I dropped my baby fat. It wasn't that much weight-maybe 15 pounds, and I was still a tall, sturdy girl after it. The difference wasn't that I got male attention after losing the weight because I didn't. The difference was that my peers suddenly wanted to talk to me and seemed to care how I was after 6 years of shunning and scorn. That was really hard to swallow since I knew my personality and circumstances hadn't changed.
179. farmer Tom said the following at 11:48 AM on Nov 17:
Okay, men, back to you. What can we late 20's/early 30's women do to show that we love meeting new people and weren't THOSE GIRLS when we were younger?
Three things, I would mention.
First, you need to examine your list of what you "require" in a husband. Anything that is a negotiable needs to be eliminated from your mindset. For instance, career. If you have been only considering "professionals" or "educated" types start considering the blue collar working man types. Auto mechanics, plumbers, (both professions which can pull down rather large incomes compared to the average), bus drivers, maintenance men, etc.
Second hang out where those type guys hang out. Probably not the local library or cappuccino bar. More like ball games, bowling alleys, garages,(working on their cars, boats, motorcycles etc), Maybe especially get to know about auto racing or truck and tractor pulling, you get the idea. Join a softball league, even if you can't catch the ball, some guy just might be willing to teach you the basics. Consider taking up a sport involving firearms. Lots of guys would like to meet a girl who can handle a gun, Things like shooting trap or skeet. Target shooting, or competition shooting. You could always take up hunting, as well, either small game, or even deer hunting.
Third, be willing to make it known to every who will listen that your desire is marriage, and that you will be a submissive wife who supports her husband in his hobbies and free time pursuits.
Some of you will literally experience revulsion at some of my ideas. Because you want a guy who is just like you. You want a guy who is the arctypical feminized version of manhood portrayed in the movies and books you read. And most guys are the exact opposite of that image.
All these comments are assuming that you are attempting to meet guys who are followers of Jesus Christ. So you will have to do some searching to find where these believers hang out. I'm quite sure that they may even avoid singles groups and activities because they have been so frequently burned by Christian women who look down on them because they are not "in ministry" or have no desire to "travel".
In other words, you must change your perspective on what a real man is. He just might have dirt under his fingernails, have a gun collection, drive a pickup with big tires on it, and consider Rush Limbaugh to be a liberal.
180. BDB said the following at 1:20 PM on Nov 17:
Farmer Tom (#179) wrote:
>>who look down on them because they are not "in ministry" or have no desire to "travel".<<
Oh, I dunno. I'm involved in a few ministries and I love to travel.
I also spent the weekend at the drag races. Lots of women there. Specifically, women with tattoos.
Seriously, though, John Force's drag-racing skills have been passed on to his daughters Ashley Force Hood and Courtney Force each of whom did quite well this weekend. Ashley did brush the wall in the final, though. Scary thing to do at 200+ MPH. I didn't see daughter Brittany Force race this weekend. I think she's busy in college.
181. Sarah P. said the following at 1:21 PM on Nov 17:
So... Farmer Tom... we shouldn't ask the men to become women, but we should become men?
I have no problem if my future hubby wants to go away into the forest and kill critters, but I think I would have trouble doing it myself.
I would like to learn how to fix my car, however. Would save a lot of money in life, most likely.
182. Sarah P. said the following at 1:45 PM on Nov 17:
I should note that I wouldn't mind cleaning the critter afterwards. I'm not that squeamish; I just don't really feel like I gain anything from killing it. Guys gain something.
I cleaned a couple of pig stomachs last Thanksgiving when I was visiting my roommate's family in rural Pennsylvania, for example. Did a good job at it, too.
183. Andrea-Elena said the following at 1:47 PM on Nov 17:
BDB:
Some day a woman is going to be very blessed to be your wife.
May you be blessed by her.
=)
184. Vanessa said the following at 2:26 PM on Nov 17:
Farmer Tom (who always makes me think, usually makes me laugh, and sometimes makes me want to slap him!)...I think you hit the nail on the head with your response to the "what can girls do?" question.
I can't tell you how many building projects (Habitat for Humanity, Center for Independent Living, etc) I've worked on HOPING to meet a guy who is solid and caring. I grew up on a workbench, as my daddy was/is a carpenter...and I sat on his lap while he rebuilt a Mustang. I know my way around power tools, minor home and vehicle repairs, and can shoot a handgun straighter than most guys I know. I've gone hunting with my dad, own power tools...yet wear my hair long, dress feminine, am an amazing cook, am affectionate, and do my best to encourage and support my guy friends (helping them to learn to pursue women who catch their eye). I still can't manage to find a date of my own.
I talk with my friends, all of them...married, single, divorced, etc about my desire to be married.
I am overweight (and have been all of my life due to unknown food allergies and a large weight gain due to medication in my early 20s) but have lost quite a bit of weight over the past few years. I try to dress appropriately, in well-fitting feminine clothes (even sewing/altering them myself) and natural hair/makeup styles that are flattering and soft. I don't feel badly about myself because of my appearance mostly because I take care of myself the best I am able to (ie: making the most of what I've got). However, I'm also mostly a homebody and while I'm not shy, I'm DEFINITELY an introvert. I "lose" guys to bubbly, perky, thin, pretty girls all the time. The loud, crazy guys want girls to keep up with them...and the quiet guys are drawn like moths to flames to the bubbly, perky girls. Fake bubbly/perky only lasts so long...so my question would be what can a slightly overweight, not shy but introverted 30 year old virgin do to catch a man's eye? The only eyes of guys I seem to catch and keep interest are guys who live (or should be living) in group homes under supervision...or divorced guys who married the cheerleader captain 10 years ago and she left him with a kid or two to go have "fun" with someone else more exciting (rich, motivated, athletic, fill in the blank).
185. BDB said the following at 2:36 PM on Nov 17:
#183 - that's a very kind thing to say.
186. D.Williams said the following at 3:09 PM on Nov 17:
@BDB, #180: I second the motorsports. AFH is my favorite race car driver (brushing the wall, yeah she got a little anxious and tried to peddle the thing while the wheels were spinning but I'm glad Zippy got his first win). I enjoy hanging out at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway watching drag racing along with stock cars. Yeah, there are a lot of people with tattoos there but it's good fun because we all enjoy the racing.
That said, I mentioned to a guy I just met at the church I recently started attending that I didn't go to one of their functions because I was at the Speedway hanging out with my dad and the second I said "Speedway," this guy looked at me crazy and walked off while I was talking mid-sentence. Whatever; this guy has less social skills than I do.
187. BDB said the following at 4:13 PM on Nov 17:
D. Williams (#186) - this time a relative of mine was working with the guy who won Super Stock and Stock Eliminator in April in Las Vegas. It was interesting seeing things from the Sportsman's perspective. And, honestly, the women who were attached to one of the racing teams were not drunk and out of control. They definitely understood what was going on. It was interesting hearing women sitting near me in the stands who were explaining the race strategies for each class with the same thoroughness as the men in my family who follow racing.
So, for women over 30 who need a game changer...also consider asking men about their work and what they are passionate about. First of all, this gives you practice interacting with men who talk about their work. Men who might not have seen their parents' marriage as a blessing may wake up to how nice it is to have someone who actually grasps the challenges they face and is willing to learn about it.
188. Jeremiah said the following at 4:37 PM on Nov 17:
Vanessa (#184), you were nice enough to comment on some of my posts, so I will try here to give you an honest response to your question, “what can I do… to catch a man's eye?” :)
The way you describe yourself, you sound like you have a lot of great qualities –good with tools but feminine, amazing cook, natural style - these are all pluses. I can imagine that are some Godly Christian men out there that will find you very attractive just the way you are. …Don’t settle for the “half baked” ones. ;)
The problem is not with you, or with your look, or with your activities. The issue is probably one of being exposed to the right guys and being exposed often enough that the ones that are similar to you (i.e., maybe kind of shy) are comfortable enough to make the first move.
I had a good female friend that is very similar to you (also a little heavier) that just started dating a great Christian man from our church. My friend has been kind of the go-to social planner for our group for the last few years. Food events always seem to start or end at her house… Like you, she is an AMAZING cook! The man that she just started dating has been coming to church and to social events for the past 8 months, maybe a year. That’s how long it took for him to get comfortable enough to ask out my friend. I’m just bringing that up to say that it pays to keep trying, and not to rule out the kind of shy guys you already know. Use your skills. The way to a man’s heart is through his stomach!
That said, just like women, men cannot be forced into being attracted to you. If your heart is set on the former track star at youth group or the Calvin Klein model, you will probably be disappointed. In most cases, men that are skinnier and athletic are looking for the bubbly cheerleader types. This is because most athletic men work very hard to be athletic… so, similar to the skinny and beautiful women, these men also have very high expectations on what they think they deserve. The mentality is, “I work hard to look good, she needs to look good too”.
Option #2 for dating would be to try to remake yourself into someone you are not. With enough time at the gym, plus money and suffering, it is my belief that almost anyone can FORCE themselves look like little Miss Cheerleader. (Bubbly personality may take more training). But at what cost? I don’t think #2 is God-honoring.
So, my advice is to strike the right balance. Spend a little time on the weight loss, spend a little time on the “look” and then spend the majority of time praising God by ministering to the single men in your life. Use your food skills… I’ve seen it work! Befriend couples as they can also be advocates. Make it know to your guy friends that you are looking. And pray boldly.
Good luck! I hope it works for you. (I hope it works for me too as I am trying a similar approach!) :)
189. D.Williams said the following at 5:15 PM on Nov 17:
@Jeremiah, #188: You're a brave, brave man to post after the past 50 comments or so were directed towards you. I was wondering if you were going to post after all of that;) Okay, carry on.
190. BDB said the following at 5:50 PM on Nov 17:
Here's another thing women can do:
If you see a man who is unattached and from what you can see, marriage material, ask him if he's praying about whether God has marriage in His plan for the guy's life.
I would caution you, this MIGHT scare the guy away. Might. But as long as you don't ask him his feelings about you specifically, it's not going to create the problems that occur when women take the initiative.
To be honest, in the 16 years I've attended my church, I've never heard anyone suggest this to the single men. Usually the discussion doesn't go beyond whether people are dating. For someone who finds himself always getting turned down, a dating discussion will not motivate him, either.
However, prayer is different. A man who is praying is someone God can redirect much more easily. He may have to face the reality that he hasn't been praying, just taking matters into his own hands, and maybe that was the problem all along.
This is actually something I realized at work. One day it finally occurred to me that the most vexing problems at work I had never prayed about. When I finally did, some of them resolved themselves; sometimes a compromise popped into my head and the other people involved accepted it gladly. Prayer does work. But all too often, Christians try to "do things" without praying about them first.
191. anna said the following at 7:20 PM on Nov 17:
@ Jeremiah, and any of the other guys:
"then spend the majority of time praising God by ministering to the single men in your life."
In your opinion, what would this look like? I mean, how to minister to a single guy, in a way that doesn't come across like a woman's acting like his sister, or being too forward?
192. Jacob M. said the following at 7:40 PM on Nov 17:
Wow. I knew the women wouldn't like what I had to say, but I never would have thought this discussion would go on this long.
There are way too many comments responding to either me personally, or to the ideas I and other guys expressed, to respond to them all individually. Therefore, let me just make a couple of general points that cover most of the bases as they came to mind while I was reading the comments.
1) Women are absolutely clueless about what makes women attractive to men. They seem to be constitutionally incapable of seeing through men's eyes. I think most other men would back me up on this. Women seem to evaluate women's appeal on the same basis on which they evaluate men's (personality, sense of style, poise, demeanor, charisma, etc.) and are TOTALLY blind to the underlying physical characteristics that attract men. Women routinely describe plain girls as attractive, and hot girls as plain. They are just all over the map, and so all these women in the comments saying "I know this or that girl who's really beautiful but is totally overlooked by men" or "I wasn't good-looking until I turned 25"--we guys just can't put any stock in what you're saying. I would need to see the girl in question for myself, or hear another man's description of her, to know how attractive she actually was. And if men truly aren't interested in her, chances are it's because she's not nearly as beautiful as you think she is.
2) Here's a handy tip for all those puzzling over why this or that girl isn't getting asked out. There are really only two reasons for any given guy not to ask out any given girl: 1, she's not physically attractive enough for his taste, or 2, he considers it obvious that she doesn't like him. The latter can happen when it's clear she's out of his league, e.g., in the case of the guy who knows he's a total social outcast pondering the cheerleader, or when the two are in the same general league but the guy has perceived from the girl's body language, facial expressions, and verbal comments that she's not receptive to him and doesn't "like him like that." Sort of an "I find you creepy" vibe. Really, those are the only two reasons. Any given instance of a guy not asking a girl out fits under one of those two scenarios.
3) I think these examples of guys overlooking beautiful but shy, quiet wallflowers to go for "bubbly" girls are bunk. Again, women don't get men's minds. We don't care whether a girl is shy or bubbly. If she's physically attractive enough, we will be interested. This could theoretically happen if a girl was shy, and her shyness happened to come across in a way she didn't mean it, the way I described above: an "I find you creepy" vibe. I suppose that could coincidentally happen, and maybe it's what's happening in the minority of these situations. I suspect that in the vast majority, though, this quiet shy wallflower is being overlooked not because she's quiet and shy but because she's not physically up to snuff for the guys in question.
193. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 8:06 PM on Nov 17:
Trevor Dolby (168):
I am not calling for simple censorship. I know how people feel, and I know what goes on in the minds of single Christian men regarding relationships. I am 41 yrs old and have been single all my life, so I am not unaware of the feelings and thoughts of single Christian men. Heck, I would bet I am probably more qualified to write/comment about men and being single that most bloggers...but that is another story.
Yes my post was in anger. How do many men feel when women say "all the good one's are taken"? But hey, I am in love with a woman who hasn't had the spit-shine, pure, perfect, Little House on the Prairie life in regards to sexuality, but you know what? THAT IS HOW I WANT IT!!!!
What better way to show grace and love to someone! And boy do I sure need God's help to love someone with that kind of life. The church has to really strain and force itself to actually minister to the sexually wounded, the physically and emotionally abused, and YES THE DIVORCED (that one is for all the super-know-it-all calvinists and the pompous self-righteous), and I remember several years ago telling some very close friends that I only want to marry someone who has been through a lot of pain in their life...
Why? Because that person will know what it is like to hurt (I am an emotional person and have been hurt and abused verbally and emotionally myself by many people, including Christians, and I HAVE HURT OTHERS MYSELF!), and they will most likely have a more humble and broken attitude when meeting up with those who are broken too.
So overall, there are things that people say that really make my blood boil (holy anger if I must use Christian language), and I NEVER want to hear someone tear down my honey.
194. BDB said the following at 8:21 PM on Nov 17:
D. Williams (#189)-most of those comments were responding to Jacob M.
195. Dan Lilledahl from Newnan, GA said the following at 8:33 PM on Nov 17:
Trevor again (168 and 169)
I do agree with you about this kind of topic needing to be perhaps in a different environment - i.e., not in a cold online environment. I have myself harbored negative thoughts about women in general - for example - "why do women only want men with fat wallets and a thick head of dark hair?" or "why do women only want the stereotypical 'man' - hunts, fishes, or kills things in general, fixes cars, obsesses over football and college basketball, has a goatee, etc" - I myself have harbored these kind of thoughts. Thanks for the balance!!!!
196. Vanessa said the following at 10:39 PM on Nov 17:
Jeremiah...I'm way past youth group age, lol! I consider myself to be about a "7" on the attractiveness scale (give or take a half a point at certain times) and am pretty realistic about not fawning over the "10" guys.
I have recently started attending a new church that seems to be more, shall we say, conducive to meeting people...as in, I think I finally figured out where all the single Christian people my age hang out. Crossing fingers and praying like crazy that finally something works.
In any case, thanks for the encouragement. I really wish there were some way all of us regular posters could all get together and meet up...who knows how many matches would happen! Boundless, are you listening?!?!?! Grin.
197. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:33 AM on Nov 18:
Kelly-1 (171): I'm afraid my answer to your question may not be very easy, but I think the key is to get matchmaker types to know about you and your history. Any halfway-selective matchmaker will avoid putting any guy in touch with a "hottie who turned down guys by the dozen" and so you need to ensure that they know you weren't like that.
Of course, the next question is "where does one find matchmakers in today's society?" There aren't very many, I fear, owing to the age-stratification of most Christian social scenes. You really need to find the guys who hang out with the guys you're interested in, as they'll probably talk about girls occasionally :) The potential matchmaker guys would often be slightly older, could well be married, but would have to be part of the same social circle as the target guys. That way, when your name comes up in a conversation, you won't be talked of as being "used seconds" or whatever.
Not sure how much this helps, but making sure the right people know you're an exception to the rule makes it much more likely that guys will look at you as a possible target. Note that I've not said anything about how you should change - you might need to do so, but that's not something I can say anything about without knowing you.
198. jack said the following at 7:43 AM on Nov 18:
"...she has also paid a price for her choices--but this need not be an unworkable relationship."
Men pay a MUCH higher price by being pushed off until their 30s.
First of all, when the men are younger and at their sexual peak, when a loving, monogamous marriage would provide them with one of life's greatest necessities, they are being rebuffed by picky, over-choosy, and narcissistic females.
Then, when the gals "wise up" in the 30s, they expect us to be there waiting for them. Bear in mind that women peak sexually in their later 30s, so hey - NO HARM DONE, eh?
Plus, they get a provider and child anyway, even after they deprived their ultimate husband of her affections when she was at her peak attractiveness and when he would have benefited most. But us guys need to choke down our our "pride" and "man up", volunteering ourselves for such service.
As to giving up sex to guys, and the "mistake factor":
I'm not sure I buy it. I think that when a woman yields sexually to a man she knows (deep in her heart) EXACTLY what she is doing.
My earnest belief is that deep in her heart she is saying "Mr. hot-and-exciting is worth risking my virginity over". "If I wind up with Mr. Steady Christian guy later, he can just accept the fact that my virtue needed to be given to a better man than he, just in case I could win the trophy guy."
"Mr. Virtue will just need to KNOW HIS PLACE, and accept it he is unworthy of a being a woman's first love."
199. jack said the following at 7:44 AM on Nov 18:
By the way, why is it always mens' fault?
Why can't there be a companion article:
"The Spinster Syndrome: Too Picky to Change?"
200. IMO said the following at 8:19 AM on Nov 18:
Irene (#153)
I totally agree with you and others...
Some of the commenters on here are being extremely rude and inappropriate. Why? My guess is that they are holding onto bitter experiences in their past and casting them upon women.
Such stereotypes and belittling views are not tolerated. I'm glad there are a bunch of others outraged.
For the hateful posters out there: check your heart and see where all your venom is coming from. It's more a reflection on you. Where is the reflection of Christ? Nowhere, when bitterness has taken over.