Testimony in the Turndown
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 11/11/2009 at 2:45 PM
A few nights ago I was talking with a friend -- we'll call her Jenny -- who has been spending some time with a certain single guy. They have mutual friends. He's new to her small town and doesn't know many people. And they share some common interests. Now, under ordinary circumstances, you might think this friendship has the potential for more. The thing is, this guy -- we'll call him James -- though very nice, is not a believer.
Because they don't share their faith in common, Jenny has looked upon her relationship with James as just a good friendship. In fact, as far as I can tell, her emotions have not slipped into entertaining even an inkling of romantic inclination. However, as all good male-female friendships tend to go, Jenny and James recently reached a crossroads in their friendship.
Jenny called to tell me that James has recently been releasing little flirty comments into the text-o-sphere. For example, "My friends asked me where my 'girlfriend' was tonight." And that wasn't the first time he'd dropped the g-word (girlfriend). Jenny asked me how she should broach the subject with James of her personal conviction not to date unbelievers.
This made me think of the times I have handled -- sometimes badly -- this situation. One time, at a party, a friend of a friend asked me if I would like to go out on a date. Knowing that he wasn't a Christian, I unfortunately blasted him with my bluntness: "I'm flattered, but I only date Christians."
After an awkward, squirming moment, he uncomfortably said, "And I'm definitely not one." Then he made an excuse to exit stage right. I knew the moment the words left my mouth that I hadn't been a great testimony in my response. At the same time, I couldn't think of what else to say. I'd told the truth.
Several years later, I found myself in a similar situation. I had struck up a friendship with a guy who was not a Christian, and he began making it clear that he had dating on his mind. This time I sent an e-mail, explaining that I had picked up on his attentions toward me and that I took dating seriously and considered a shared faith the most important factor. He took it well, and our friendship continues to this day.
If you hold the conviction not to date unbelievers, how do you communicate this in a graceful way? (For a primer on why shared faith is a biblical principle for relationships, I recommend Carolyn McCulley's article "Same-Lord Relationships.")
Thankfully, the day after we spoke, Jenny had a great opportunity to talk about her faith and view on relationships with James before he even asked her on a date. "I think he understood where I'm coming from and won't ask me out," she said. Now she is excited about the opportunity to be a testimony to James of what it looks like to be a godly, intentional single. How have you handled romantic offers from those who don't share your faith? How can Christian singles express grace in the turndown?
1. BDB said the following at 3:32 PM on Nov 11:
Ah...you mean like the times when a non-Christian woman extends what seems to be an invitation to discuss business over coffee or lunch, and it veers into the personal unexpectedly?
Well, one way to start is by responding to the question, "What do you do for fun?" by describing church-related volunteer activities. Their reaction will provide some insight into where they stand - such as if their primary social activity is to go wine tasting with "the girlz."
And of course asking them if they go to church anywhere. For some non-Christians, their stereotype of Christians are the angry people they see portrayed on MSNBC. Others have very little experience with Christians and are genuinely curious. I don't recommend missionary dating at all, but we can always present the Gospel.
And, you can extend on that. Let's say they ask you if you are seeing anyone, and you say no. Then they ask what you're looking for. You can explain the importance of being able to volunteer together at church and holding the same faith because that becomes the bedrock for so many other decisions in life.
There is an interesting piece of the puzzle. Back when the Soviet Union was still operating, I knew some missionaries who worked behind the iron curtain. They described "men of peace." These were men who were not believers, but were somehow moved to facilitate the work of the missionaries. An example is security personnel who would warn the missionaries who the informants were and be cautious around them so they weren't kicked out of the country for proseletyzing.
I suspect that these men of peace eventually become believers. But in the interim, they are often quite respectful of believers and their beliefs. Stay alert for people like that.
2. Beth said the following at 4:19 PM on Nov 11:
Jenny would also be wise to monitor how James might see their time together, regardless of what she's said. Men are as capable as women at misinterpreting time spent together. Boundless has some good articles on being sensitive to the impact of one's actions on the other person in a friendship-with-potential or buddy relationship.
3. Cait said the following at 4:55 PM on Nov 11:
Yeah I know what you mean. Once I said something like "I think you are really nice but it's important to me that I only date Christians" and he responded with "Oh and I'm not good enough for you"... which turned out to be a great opener to talking about what makes a person 'good' and what my faith is really about.
I think it's just important to explain that you are not rejecting them as a person or a friend but because you don't share similar faith. And then not to use them as your buddy... oh I've seen that SOO many times! If he's not a Christian then I don't have to treat him with the same respect as I would a Christian male friend. That makes me mad.
4. Mark said the following at 5:08 PM on Nov 11:
The best example I've ever heard of this and something I still give as an example to this day is my first college roommate. He was not a Christian in high school but asked a Christian girl out. She gracefully said no but invited him to her youth group instead and he went. He got involved with it, became a Christian there, and considers the youth pastor and his wife his second set of parents today and is an associate pastor at that church now. He did not marry that girl or even date her (he found a different girl in college), but the principle remains the same. Unbelievers aren't people to be shunned, they're people who Christ also loves. Obviously, a girl who has a guy liking her is not in the best position to evangelize the guy, but she can direct him to other guys (in my roommate's case, her youth pastor), who can.
5. Kelly-1 said the following at 6:16 PM on Nov 11:
From an outsider's perspective, it sounds like Jenny has been leading James on. Most non-Christians would never even suspect that dating-only-Christians is a rule for us.
----
I once told a guy I couldn't see myself marrying a non-Christian. He then asked me if I believed he was going to hell... and I told the truth.
He hasn't spoken to me in 3 years.
I wish I'd phrased it better.
6. dana111 said the following at 6:18 PM on Nov 11:
Not to be rude, but do you think it is a good idea for her to remain friends with him after a romantic interest has been developed on his part? There has been several articles written on Boundless about friendlationships between men and women. How is this one different??
7. Emily said the following at 6:23 PM on Nov 11:
This article could NOT have been more timely. I have recently developed a friendship with a guy who I was introduced to by a mutual friend. He is a staunch atheist. Clearly, because of this, I have never even thought of dating him, and have been very careful to make sure that my words and actions don't give him any ideas. However, it's becoming increasingly clear to me that he would like to think of me as more than a friend. I've been pondering what to do - and then this article showed up! Thanks!
PS - I am good friends with at least 2 guys who came to know Christ when they fell for a Christian girl who refused to date them because they weren't Christian. When they were told this they started going to church and decided "I'll be Christian to get this girl". Of course, neither of them are dating those girls now, but they do love Christ! Pretty funny!!
8. tiff said the following at 6:24 PM on Nov 11:
BDB,
I sure hope enjoying "wine tasting with the girlz" as a main social activity isn't a disqualifier for a godly Christian woman!!
9. Rebekah in Socal said the following at 6:41 PM on Nov 11:
BDB--I've ask "what do you do on the weekend?" if I was unsure about their faith.
10. Courtney said the following at 7:01 PM on Nov 11:
I really struggle with this not through any desire of my own towards single non-christian guys but because my friends seem determined to 'hook me up' with anyone and everyone, particularly as my Grad Ball is approaching and also at work.
I have gone through two extremely awkward situations in the past year and a half in which the boys in question decided that the 'nice, friendly, non-insulting' girl at work was fair game and for the first time in my life I found myself trying to deflect good intentions. With variable success I might add: I definitely said some things I would dearly love to retract as Suzanne did with her "I'm flattered, but I only date Christians." I said essentially the same thing.
I would be extremely grateful for an article on graceful rejections as I move on to University especially. The drinking/dating culture of my city and indeed many other places, leads to frequent misinterpretations of intentions so a map through the maze would be great! Thankyou Suzanne for bringing this issue up :)
11. Tong said the following at 7:11 PM on Nov 11:
This article comes at the right time! Thank you so much!
12. Sara said the following at 7:20 PM on Nov 11:
Such a tough situation in so many ways! Like you, Suzanne, there was once where I very bluntly said I only date believers, and it came out very rudely which was so not the intention. Then there has been times where I have skirted around the issue and almost made up a different excuse (basically lied). With my husband, I kept getting the feeling there was something special about him, so when he asked me out to coffee I was extremely (EXTREMELY) straightfoward with three facts: I have a huge crush on you despite the fact I barely know you, I am also probably too young for you(there was a seven year age difference, but I had yet to reach my twenties), and I only date Christians because I date with the intention of marriage and I think it is best for the both of us if we marry someone within our own belief system.
Obviously, he had a crush on my too, the age thing was overcome, and he was a Christian although a different denomination (the same as my Mom though, which means that they get to gang up on me a bit lol!).
My big problem is when I see friends who don't have the conviction to date only other believers. One of my friends said to me, "My sister married an atheist, and they have the best marriage I know, so I don't think there is anything wrong with it". I didn't know how to approach it in a loving way, especially since his view on the scripture about it was that it was outdated, right up where with women keeping their hair long and such.
13. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:29 PM on Nov 11:
Well, Ms. Gosselin, one can't accuse you of being ambiguous!
14. meg said the following at 8:56 PM on Nov 11:
Thank you for this Suzanne! This answers a question I posed in a comment a few weeks ago. "I take dating seriously and consider shared faith the most important factor.." Is short, sweet & to the point, and leaves room for follow-up conversations about said faith.
Dana (#6) raises a good point, and I'll admit that when I am friends with a guy that is a nonbeliever I am less concerned about guarding his heart/leading him on than I would be if he was believer. Twisted logic, I know. I'm working on it.
I'd also like to echo Tiff (#8) ;)
15. Mel said the following at 9:09 PM on Nov 11:
I had to think about this one carefully once when a guy asked me out. I just said no to him. Afterwards I took sometime to think through how I could not just leave him with that, but explain why - without him feeling it was a bad thing about him, when it was just that he wasn't a Christian. This is what God helped me to come up with and it was helpful:
"I have a man in my life that I want to live for in everything - his name is Jesus. My life revolves around him. Because you don't know him and you're life doesn't revolve around him - going out with you would be like being in a race on my own with you watching on the sideline. Even if we could understand/accept each other's position, we would never really be fully sharing life together to the extent it can be. You would missing out and I would be missing out on the best a relationship can offer." (this was a little while ago so it's probably not word for word what I said, but it's along those lines)
Anyway - it may be helpful for someone else. I know he appreciated it and didn't feel rejected as someone not good enough. And I think that it gave him a good view of Christianity - especially that he didn't feel like Christians are superior.
16. Louise from Chicago said the following at 9:22 PM on Nov 11:
Comment 5, that was real nice.
I wouldn't talk to you either after a statement like that.
17. Leah said the following at 9:47 PM on Nov 11:
I had a similar conversation when I was about 16 or 17 with a guy two years older than me. He had not actually asked me out, but had essentially asked "do you think we could work as a couple" because it was obvious we were hugely different. It was an online conversation (as most high school senior conversations are these days - outside of school of course) and it went for hoooooours. I told him I was only prepared to date Christians. This lead to a lengthy discussion on why I felt a non-Christian would not be a compatible life partner.
He was offended by it, but knew that was not my intention so didn't act out his offence (eg. by shutting me out, being rude, etc). When I asked why he was offended (because this surprised me) he said "Think about it this way. You've basically just told me I'm not good enough for you because I don't believe the same things you do." I explained it wasn't a matter of him not being good enough, just that I felt sharing the same beliefs is the foundation of a relationship and if you don't have that it threatens everything else you have.
We aren't on very good terms at the moment, but not for that reason.
18. capitalJon said the following at 9:51 PM on Nov 11:
“Um yeah..well I’m quite faltered you see but as I’m sure you’ll understand, I’m already in this relationship with Jesus Christ which quite complicates matters...”
19. Andrea-Elena said the following at 10:45 PM on Nov 11:
I didn't think that being that honest and succinct would be a bad thing. Was it the tone that "Jenny" used, Mrs. Suzanne?
Still, very good points.
I've never had to explain my policy, except to people on an online bulletin board for Christians, and then it was more about trying to help them understand the biblical principles. I've never been asked out by anyone who wasn't already a Christian. And really, all the men I've dated have been pretty strong Christians, so that was a blessing -- we started out on much more even footing than some dating folks do. It was easier to get right to discerning if there was parity and if the two of us would make a good match.
But at least now I'm more prepared to respond, should anyone who isn't a Christian ask me out. Thanks, Suzanne! =)
20. Mishy from SouthBayAreaCali said the following at 10:58 PM on Nov 11:
Thanks for this blog post. I've had guys tell me when I say such things as I only date christians, they would tell me oh I'm a christian when in yet they really weren't and I knew it. Thanks, cause I never know what to say or how to say it at times. Mostly, I'll just be upfront and blunt, when I'm usually a sweet person. I don't like seeing others hurt, feelings and otherwise. Overall, I like what others have said, thank you guys. I would say now, like I only date guys who are of the same shared faith as myself. I don't expect them to understand, but I'd rather see them come to Christ in a genuine way and not just because of a girl. Although granted God can use that sort of situation to bring them in, such as the other examples I've read above. That's awesome when that happens, horray! In any case, if any one else whether guy or girl has any other advice, I'd like to hear it. Thanks guys and thank you Suzanne! : )
21. BDB said the following at 12:17 AM on Nov 12:
tiff (#8) wrote:
>>I sure hope enjoying "wine tasting with the girlz" as a main social activity isn't a disqualifier for a godly Christian woman!!<<
Well, I'm thinking more of the women who spend 3-4 nights a week out drinking with the girlz.
But since I don't drink, I know that sometimes alcohol-centered people don't feel comfortable with that. Until I was 35, I completely forgot that my grandmother also doesn't drink, and boy, does she have stories about stuff she's seen. My grandfather does drink a little, so I know it's quite possible for a non-drinker and a light drinker to be married for 70+ years.
I was at a meeting at a winery once and as I was leaving, noticed that the tasting room was full of 20 & 30-something professional-looking women without rings. Not sure where all the men were. Definitely not a balanced distribution.
22. Eddie Ssemakula said the following at 12:22 AM on Nov 12:
If it happened to me Gosselin
I would either 'gracefully give space',poeple though will always know what you stand for before all that happens.
I have had non believing girls send out feelers and all i have done is 'live my life' and avoid straying into conversations that would imply am available
23. Sarah P. said the following at 7:38 AM on Nov 12:
This reminds me of one interesting situation. I got to know a girl (19) and guy (22) at Tae Kwon Do class who were living together. I had them over a few times and went to their apartment a few times and made them dinners. Then they broke up, and the girl left TKD. Wait a few months, and... you guessed it! The guy tries to ask me out.
Now, this was a little different situation, since we had all three hung out. We had discussed God, the world, and everything pretty deeply on multiple occasions, so he knew right where I stood faith-wise. So when I told him that I didn't feel comfortable going out one-on-one with someone with whom I couldn't have a long-term relationship (not a Christian), he didn't take offense at all.
It was pretty helpful to be able to tell him that, actually, since I am not attracted to him at all. :P Of course, at least part of that lack of attraction is probably because he is not a Christian.
24. Jeremy said the following at 8:58 AM on Nov 12:
BDB (#21):
I think your words could come off as a bit haughty in regards to drinking at all, especially depending on how someone interprets what activity you are referring to. It might be legitimate to observe that Jesus was "drinking with the boyz" probably more than 3-4 nights per week, but that certainly does not mean his life was alcohol-centered.
It seems that those who choose to never drink have trouble talking about that fact without slipping in at least a subtle implication that drinking is wrong.
25. Suz said the following at 9:07 AM on Nov 12:
Can we discuss another slightly similar topic?
Guys: how do christian girls politely and respectfully turn down an offer for a date? what about if you've gone on 2 dates already and now have decided you're not interested in him any more. How do you handle that?
Girls: How have you handled that in the past? any good advice? mistakes you wished you had avoided?
Suzanne: would love to know your thoughts on this!
26. Suzanne said the following at 9:19 AM on Nov 12:
Andrea-Elena #19,
Jenny handled the situation just fine, in my opinion. Her advantage was that she had a friendship with James.
In my case, when my friend's friend asked me out on a date, I think I could have said no in a kinder way that didn't slap him in the face with my faith.
Imagine if I had said, "I only date tall guys" and he was short. I think my "I only date Christians" (with him not being a Christian) came across in that same unkind way.
How should I have responded? Here's what I think: I should have engaged him in a short conversation, finding out a little about him (to place value on him as a person). Then I should have explained in general my philosophy on dating so he understood why I was saying no.
The bottom line here is, what if this is one of the only interactions this person has with a Christian? You want it to be a good experience. You want the person to feel like he or she was treated with kindness and respect -- not judgment or scorn.
27. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:27 AM on Nov 12:
I can't help but wonder what the Boundlessline responses would look like if the reverse were told: A Christian guy is interested in a girl, asks her out, only to then find out she is a non-Christian. But then the guy says, "OK, according to my faith, we can't officially date, but can we still just be friends?"
I can just see the red flag warnings come up from all over. People accusing him of flirting with "missionary dating" in the guise of friendship, or that he shouldn't be friends with opposite sex in that way.
Personally, I think this reinforces the idea of the Ladder Theory. That generally speaking, a woman can honestly be friends with a guy and have no romantic feelings, but if a guy is interested in a girl, it's rarely "just for friendship".
28. Nate said the following at 9:31 AM on Nov 12:
I thought this post was about the economy!
29. Emily said the following at 10:18 AM on Nov 12:
Jeremy #24, the wine that Jesus drank in the Bible was more like our grape juice today. He didn't go out with all his boyz and sip fancy wines from fancy glasses to get a little buzz. THere is a difference. I think that BDB means that a women who enjoys that feeling and likes her wines, isn't going to be his TYPE of a godly woman. I know for me a godly man is going to be someone who doesn't drink or want to hang out with his guy friends several nights a week.
30. Jeremiah said the following at 10:28 AM on Nov 12:
I’ve been on two dates with non-Christian women in the last month. Both were people I met at random and didn’t know their spiritual background ahead of time. (I was holding out hope that one would be Christian, but sadly no).
I’ll tell you it was absolutely fantastic to be out with someone that: 1) Said “yes” when I asked; 2) Didn’t run away in utter terror at the prospect of meeting for happy hour, 3) and laughed when I made a somewhat inappropriate/flirty comment rather than giving me the mean “mom” eyes….
In addition, I spent two entire dates without one mention of “having a heart for___”, “going on missions trips to ____”, and/or some po-dunk Christian college I’d never heard of. It was fantastic.
(I jest…. Mostly). ;)
31. Andrea-Elena said the following at 10:34 AM on Nov 12:
Suzanne,
Oops! That's what I get for skimming back over your post rather than re-reading. It was your response to the non-Christian guy I was thinking of. Sorry!
I guess part of the reason I hadn't thought about the implications of being succinct and honest is that I'm not around non-Christians very much. I need to expand my social circles!
Thank you for framing this for me. What I understand is key is that one isn't blunt and dismissive but to take the time to care and let the person know that he/she is a valuable human being and not "less than."
Thanks again! =)
32. BDB said the following at 10:38 AM on Nov 12:
Jeremy #24 wrote:
>>I think your words could come off as a bit haughty in regards to drinking at all,<<
You should hear my grandmother talk. She had me ROFL while describing business and charity events where otherwise respectable people had too much to drink and ended up acting or speaking in an inappropriate way.
I don't think that people realize what they look like when they drink so much that they start to lose self control. In paricular, the things they say when alcohol removes their inhibitions. There's a reason there are several verses in the Bible warning about this.
While wine was a normal part of the diet in places that didn't have sanitary water - such a during the Bronze and Iron ages - there are no parables in the Bible that Jesus begins with the words, "I was so drunk..."
33. BDB said the following at 10:52 AM on Nov 12:
Suz (#25) wrote:
>> what about if you've gone on 2 dates already and now have decided you're not interested in him any more.<<
How about:
I'm glad that we've had the opportunity to talk some more. It's helped me realize that God does not have us on the same path in life.
Then, I guess, wait for them to react...
And do not accept ANY future invitations.
34. Amir Larijani said the following at 11:51 AM on Nov 12:
Nate says:
:::inserting tongue in cheek:::
Ahhh....but it is. LOL
That is because economics deals with the way people, communities, and societies deal with scarce resources (members of the opposite sex) that have alternative uses (friendship vs. romance).
:::removing tongue from cheek:::
35. BDB said the following at 12:14 PM on Nov 12:
Nate (#28) that was my initial reaction, too, but that would be "Down-Turn" rather than "Turn-Down."
It can be depressing either way... :D
36. Leigh said the following at 12:14 PM on Nov 12:
I am dealing with this situation right now. Only this guy is a believer. I really need some advise because I don't know what to do.
He and I are not in the same spiritual weight class. The most attractive thing about a man to me is when I hear him pray. And I NEED that type of guy. I did the same thing by saying " I only date Christians " he responded by quoting the Bible. Hes a really nice guy.. but I don't care for guys who party and drink. Part of his job is booking country music stars to play at big bars and other things. So drinking is part of his job. He keeps saying he will never have me around it, and while its tempting because he is really good lookin, I know its not what God wants for me.
37. DC said the following at 12:21 PM on Nov 12:
Suppose the guy or girl becomes a Christian after the turndown? Is it ok then to give them a chance, or is it best to refrain and see if they really stick to their faith or not?
I have a Catholic friend who turned down a guy because he is Atheist. Apparently he tried to convince he could become a Catholic for her. So I know this stuff happens. She didnt go for it by the way.
38. Jo said the following at 12:22 PM on Nov 12:
A couple of people have said that saying "I only date Christians" (or something similar) can get interpreted by a non-believer as "You're not good enough for me". That's the exact experience I had, and I wasn't expecting it to be taken in that way, but of course it makes perfect sense.
If you're not a believer, then 'faith' is not a big deal. The idea of someone rejecting you just because you don't share that is like someone rejecting you because you don't have the same hobbies.
I don't have any wise advice about how to handle these conversations - but I do think it helps to have that in mind. Expect the guy/girl to be upset, expect them to think you're saying they're not good enough, expect them to feel helpless because it's something they don't feel they can change. I didn't expect that, and I couldn't explain it in a way that made sense to him. It just ended with both of us feeling crap.
Of course, a month later I gave in and went out with him anyway, which I wouldn't recommend...
In fact actually if I had my time again I'd start way back in the beginning and make it very clear where I stood before the issue was even raised. I knew he liked me, I knew I liked him, and I umm'd and ah'd for too long in my head about how big a deal the faith difference was, so when we actually had that conversation it had already gone too far into 'relationship' type territory.
39. DannieA said the following at 12:29 PM on Nov 12:
Jeremy,
there is nothing wrong with people making life choices not to drink.
It's unfortunate that people get chastized for deciding to live alcohol free.
I also would feel uncomfortable with a guy that will go out 3-4 times with da boyz drinking...
But that's my opinion.
40. DC said the following at 1:47 PM on Nov 12:
Jo (#38)
I hope you dont mind if I ask some questions about your experience with dating a non-Christian. Were you hoping in the process of your relatinship he would become a Christian? I assume the relationship ultimately ended in part over the faith issue. Suppose a few months after the breakup, this guy let you know he had found Jesus and wanted to get back together. Do you think you would have felt like you should give the relationship another go? Perhaps even felt maybe you needed to so that he would stay in the faith...like maybe after a time he would decide Christianity wasnt worth it if you didnt get back together. Thanks.
41. Emily said the following at 2:28 PM on Nov 12:
#37- DC
I would not advise dating in that case for this reason - while the person may convert to become a genuine Christian (emphasis on MAY - they could be faking it), the fact remains that they will be a NEW convert. They will be extremely spiritually immature.
Being unequally yoked refers not only to non-believers, but also level of spiritual maturity. If someone is far less spiritually mature than you, they will most likely drag you down, not build you up. This is even more pronounced when you're talking about a guy who converts for a girl. The guy is supposed to be the leader in the relationship. How can he lead if he's not as spiritually mature as his girlfriend?
I know this to be true because I've seen this happen. One of my closest guy friends in the world converted for a girl he really liked. Immediately after he converted (and it was a true conversion), they started dating. Unfortunately, because he was less mature than her, he wasn't a very good leader. They got involved in some physical sin, and the like, and it was all just messed up. He regrets it now and sees the problem with it, but that's just an example.
If they convert, great. But I wouldn't date them right away.
42. Tacuache said the following at 2:34 PM on Nov 12:
I have to agree with Jeremiah (#30) on this one. With many Christian women I've received a sanctimonious cold shoulder because I wasn't their idea of a Christian man (Masters of Divinity holding, three chord guitar "playing", casserole baking, passive guy with a Ken doll smile and a willingness to call me "sport" "buck-o" "buddy" or some other nonsense). I'm a comfortably square (big boned!) peg that they can't fit in a diamond shaped hole (preferably 2 carat, princess cut). Non-Christian girls always respond when I ask them out, and I have to say more often than not it's because they've never had a guy treat them with the respect a believer can and should do. At the same time, they show an incredible want and willingness to entertain the possibility of being my companion for the evening. It's considerably more refreshing than wading through the morass of Christian girls I've met and tried matching with of late.
43. Jeremy said the following at 2:44 PM on Nov 12:
DannieA (#39):
I agree completely that there is nothing wrong with that, although I have never really heard anyone get chastised for that decision. Often a misunderstanding of Scripture or unchecked urban legends (see below) are the basis for that decision, for which some might be legitimately questioned, but the decision itself is perfectly fine.
Emily (#29):
That is one I have often heard repeated. There was probably less alcoholic content in wine in those days than now, but make no mistake, it was still alcoholic. The prohibitions against getting drunk on wine should make that obvious, as can a number of other passages, such as Matthew 9:17 or John 2:10.
My point was only that drunkenness is sinful, not drinking itself. In comment 32 BDB makes it sound like that was more what the concern was in the first place. I don't drink myself, so I have no particular axe to grind, it just irks me a bit when people imply that something our Lord and Savior did regularly and used as a foundation of the new covenant, is sinful.
44. Matt said the following at 3:46 PM on Nov 12:
I must say that I get tired of all the whining that the guys (and the girls) do around here. I don't think it is that tough really.
I've asked out 5 girls on dates. Attempt #1 I wasn't as clear as I should have been and that was a drawn out mess.
Attempt #2 we dated for 8 months before we broke up.
Attempt #3 was with my best female friend and got shot down.
Attempt #4 was with someone I met online. Went out a few times.
Attempt #5 is with a girl from church and we've been on several dates and I'm trying to figure out if I want to pursue further or not.
All 5 attempts have been with Christian girls and it has worked out fine. All the bagging on Christian guys or girls as being terrible daters and non-Christians being better daters is just dumb. Find a better group of Christians to be around if that is the problem.
45. Matt said the following at 3:49 PM on Nov 12:
You need to be careful with pulling out the "I won't date a non-Christian" card. My brother did that with a girl that he liked and that liked him. Several months later after exploring Christianity she became a Christian. They then started dating for close to 3 years. However, they broke up and I don't think God is big part of her life currently.
However, I have another friend that got told by the girl he liked that she couldn't date him but invited him to FCA. He evantually became a Christian. A year later started dating the girl and later got married. He is now one of the elders in my church and a great Christian guy.
So, sometimes it works. But, if they became a Christian after you lay down the ultimatum, be very, very careful.
46. Jo said the following at 3:59 PM on Nov 12:
DC, 40 -
Well this was a long time ago now. I would have loved him to become a Christian, yes. But I didn't date him with that goal in mind. I think at the time it just seemed like nothing else was working - I originally turned him down, as I said, and explained to him that the Christian thing would be an issue. But after that it was just like we didn't know how to be - being 'just friends' seemed like we were faking 'cause we both knew we liked each other, and I didn't want to end the friendship - and he (like your friend's atheist admirer?) was all like "Well it's not like I've decided not to be a Christian, I just haven't had any experience of it" and so in the end I felt like we might as well give it a go.
But it sucked, because although I'm certain he didn't intend to mislead me, he really had no openness at all to Christianity. He had his opinions and he was perfectly fine with me having mine, but every time we discussed it I felt like we were arguing, I felt I had to defend myself all the time, I hated that I couldn't share the most important thing in my life with him, and he gradually realised that in fact I was right in the first place - it really was an issue. So he broke it off and it was horrible and blah blah blah.
At the time, if he'd become a Christian, I'm sure I would've totally accepted him back...
BUT BUT BUT - with the benefit of hindsight and objectivity (which I didn't display too well at the time), I don't think it was a good plan to go out with him, and I don't think it would've been a good plan to take him back if he'd become a Christian (for the reasons Emily said). I also think if someone is only a Christian because he wants to be with you, that isn't real Christianity. It might or might not develop into it - but that isn't your responsibility. Your responsibility is to do what's right, and God will take care of everything else.
I would say to your friend, keep it as friendship. And if she hasn't already, DON'T tell him she has feelings for him (if she does) - that makes it way too difficult to just be friends. Keep a bit of emotional distance, because it's so much easier to discuss God and stuff when it's not a huge deal. And for me anyway, once I was in the relationship it was a huge deal. I can happily talk with non-Christian friends about God, but I couldn't do it with him, it just felt too intense and too important - I was too close to him and it became too much. Since the breakup though, I've talked to him about Christianity much more easily and freely. It's just less pressured when you're just friends.
I don't know if that helps at all, but just because a guy says he'd be happy to become a Christian doesn't mean he would. I think non-believers just don't get what it means to be a believer. Maybe he'd be happy to go along to church with her, but that's not the same thing as centering his life around Jesus. If he's saying he'd convert for her, he's not talking about actually making Jesus his Lord. He's talking about going through the motions to keep her happy. My advice would be to make it clear there isn't going to be a relationship (regardless of religion), then stay friends (but not too close) and have some conversations (when appropriate) about what it really means to be a Christian, maybe invite him to church and stuff - but try and keep it in groups or very clearly just friends. Then if he does actually end up converting, watch and wait for a while, and if he shows interest in her again (and his faith seems genuine), have a serious talk about it all. God works in mysterious ways, after all. :)
47. Jo said the following at 4:00 PM on Nov 12:
And my apologies for the stupidly long post... sigh... Why can't I be concise?!
:)
48. BDB said the following at 4:25 PM on Nov 12:
#47 - Not Sure
49. a said the following at 5:05 PM on Nov 12:
Hmm. I know a gal who turned down a date with a non-Christian by telling him that her faith was the most important thing in her life, and so she wanted to date a man who had the same faith as the most important thing in his life.
Well, that sounded good...until the guy looked at her completely in disbelief and asked her how her faith could possibly be "the most important thing in her life" since he'd known her for a while and did NOT EVEN KNOW that she was a Christian.
Make sure your testimony backs up what you say...
50. Jeni said the following at 5:13 PM on Nov 12:
To Jeremiah #30 and Taucache #42
There are Christian women who say yes to dates, who don't run away from a happy hour opportunity and who laugh appropriately at appropriate flirtatious comments.
There are Christian women who are not looking for a Christian man who have Masters of Divinity degrees, who play guitar, who are passive, who have a "Ken doll smile".
There are Christian women who are not looking for man with a 2 carat, princess cut diamond in their pocket.
There are all kinds of Christian single women out there as I hope that there are all kinds of Christian single men out there.
51. Hieronymus Illinensis said the following at 5:30 PM on Nov 12:
Emily #29:
Jeremy #24, the wine that Jesus drank in the Bible was more like our grape juice today.
Au contraire, our grape juice was made possible only by modern pasteurization technology. Without those steps, grape juice begins to ferment as soon as the grape is crushed, thanks to yeast cells on the grape skin. The wine may, however, have been diluted with water.
The word translated "strong drink" in the Bible, however, is likely to have meant a form of beer. The distillation process was invented later.
52. Kelly-1 said the following at 6:50 PM on Nov 12:
BDB: "I was at a meeting at a winery once and as I was leaving, noticed that the tasting room was full of 20 & 30-something professional-looking women without rings. Not sure where all the men were. Definitely not a balanced distribution."
They were hoping to meet men at a social outing, because they didn't know where else to find them! ;)
I'll accept an invitation to almost ANY group event, to break out of my comfort zone/home circle and have the opportunity to meet people. Last Friday I went to a wine-tasting night, and the host was one of the elders of my church. He had a breathalyzer to ensure no one drove home drunk and I met several new people.
Sadly, all the men were married, even those who weren't wearing wedding rings. It is so very easy for a man to drop in a reference to his wife, or use "we" instead of "I", so I never rely on wedding rings to tell me what a simple conversation should.
In summary, I have sympathy for those women because they probably are very lonely and hoping that THIS might be that one-in-a-thousand event where they might meet a nice man. And if not, well, at least they are out learning something and enjoying the company of their girlfriends.
53. DC said the following at 10:19 PM on Nov 12:
Jo (#46) Thanks for the answers! My friend was, thankfully, not interested in her atheist sutor. I believe they want on a single date, and he has tried to convince her to go out ever since. To the point where she is actually annoyed by it.
Otherwise, Ive witnessed the heartbreaking situation of another girl. Witnessed doesnt do it justice...I was more caught in the middle of it. She had a non-Christian boyfriend for 2 years, broke up with him. After 3 months of trying to get her back, he finally became a Christian. A month later they were 'talking'...a few months later back together. Now over 2 years later...still together, but they dont do church stuff together. I would know...she is a regular bible study and church goer, he is never with her at the former and very sporadically at the latter. Sadly, most of her Christian friends are not bothered at all by it. One has said her and her bf are wrong for each other, and another has said she has said she really isnt sure what her bf really believes (well over a year post 'conversion'). Otherwise, for the most part, the attitude is she might as well stay with them and they can marry when they are ready (which at the current rate is still many years away if ever).
I suppose the above is my example of what can go wrong when you date a non-Christian!
Glad you were spared something like that.
54. Jo said the following at 11:47 PM on Nov 12:
BDB, 21:
"I was at a meeting at a winery once and as I was leaving, noticed that the tasting room was full of 20 & 30-something professional-looking women without rings. Not sure where all the men were. Definitely not a balanced distribution."
Wine is much more of a female thing in my experience, especially wine tasting. I imagine most guys would find it the dullest thing on earth. (Which, let's be honest, it is.)
A friend of mine had a wine tasting as part of her hen weekend, which I went to even though I can't stand the taste of wine (yuck!), I can't say it was the most exciting event I've ever been to, but the llama walking afterwards more than made up for it.
If someone goes out and gets drunk regularly with the guys/girls, that's a problem. But nearly all my Christian friends drink alcohol in moderation. I do think it's seen as less of an issue over here. I only know one Christian who would actually suggest that drinking alcohol is wrong.
55. BDB said the following at 3:07 PM on Nov 13:
DC (#53) wrote:
>>still together, but they dont do church stuff together. I would know...she is a regular bible study and church goer, he is never with her at the former and very sporadically at the latter.<<
This is one of the most frustrating things in the universe.
Particularly when you hit it off with them in a volunteering situation, notice that they're always alone - then discover that they have a boyfriend they never talk about and who never shows up to church.
I've reached the conclusion that they don't talk about him because they're experiencing spiritual tension. Their conscience is warning them that they're involved with someone who is not pleasing to God. They may even be furiously praying that he starts growing spiritually enough to take some leadership. But I've seen enough examples of this to know that sometimes God allows these relationships to start in order to force people to finally choose whether to serve God or the world. And, painfully, serving God may require relinquishing the relationship.
And the other reason they don't talk about it is to keep people distracted from the issue - if they don't know about it they are much less likely to confront the issue. It's hard to confront something you don't know about. You might be able to tell that something is going on that they're not telling you about, but even if you ask, they may not be honest about what it is. I know women who've told me they were doing something with "a friend" and then doing something else with "a friend" and only after a few months of this discovering that the whole time they were engaged in a project to get their ex-boyfriend back and weren't telling anyone until it was successful.
Gosh, thanks for making my life more confusng than it already is!
Now, I realize by reading Boundless comments that not every woman is engaged in this kind of duplicitous behavior. But enough of them are to make one hesitate to approach someone until you have a sense of their character and activities.
Of course, the solution Elisabeth Elliot presents - do not approach a woman until you pray about it and God gives you the go-ahead - solves this problem.
56. BDB said the following at 3:17 PM on Nov 13:
Jeni (#50) wrote:
>>There are Christian women who are not looking for man with a 2 carat, princess cut diamond in their pocket. <<
They prefer an Emerald cut.
57. Irene M. said the following at 3:43 PM on Nov 13:
How do you turn down a non-believer? Very politely. Just say something like, "Thank you, I'm very flattered, but I don't think we're compatible and I don't want to go out on a date." If they press, then you can explain how you don't date non-believers. Easy peasy.
BDB (#56), or no cut at all. Some of us don't like jewelry and choose to pass on the engagement ring all together.
58. Suzanne said the following at 3:44 PM on Nov 13:
#56,
Ha, ha, ha!!! Or a radiant star. :)
59. BDB said the following at 5:38 PM on Nov 13:
I actually was near an incident that was handled pretty well, at least by the woman.
The guy started by asking her what her week looked like. She started describing SEVERAL time commitments she had to church the next week.
My ears perked up. I didn't know she was a Christian.
He asked a few more questions. Then she said, "I have a boyfriend - I don't know if that was where you were going."
My ears perked back down.
Alas, the guy couldn't leave it alone, and started dissing her boyfriend for being too busy. Not a good way to be a future possibility. But I don't think he quite understood that as a practising Jew, there would be a serious conflict with someone who was attending and volunteering at a non-Denominational Evangelical church a few times a week.
60. DC said the following at 10:09 PM on Nov 13:
BDB (#55)
This is extra rough for me because I met this girl when she joined my church group after breaking up with her bf, we then got into a relationship. Hence how I got caught in the middle of it. I didnt know much about the bf until we were already together...kind of too late then. We have not been on speaking terms for months, and I basically avoid the group because its too hard.
For the most part, what you say fits though. I know of people who didnt know for months that she had a bf until she mentioned it in passing. The pastor of the church, who Ive talked with about the situation, did mention he had never seen him. The bf does show up to group social activities sometimes, though. Ive heard he's nice from some people, and a bit territorial from others. In the sense he will not let other guys talk to her for long. Months ago he did send me a message via facebook to tell me to leave her alone because I emailed her once a month or so, and also to not talk to anyone else about it (because I let her know I had gone to the Pastor). He ended the message by telling me if he had to tell me again, he would make things really unpleasant for me. (we dont know each other...so it was out of the blue totally)
Ive told these to people in the group, for the most part it all falls to deaf ears. She is excused for following her heart, and he has been excused for just protecting her...in reference for the out of nowhere threatening message he sent me.
I suppose the lesson learned for me is that its not wise to get involved with girls who will get involved with non-believers even though they know it is wrong. Someone who is willing to compromise in that area can do alot of other things. In this case...its hard because this aside, shes a pretty great girl.
Another good reason to turn down, politely, non-believers. If you give them a chance, it may wreck future relationships with believers. I think it is possible to want someone who is not equally yoked to become equally yoked with you that when you get involved with a person who already is...you miss it.
61. BDB said the following at 11:28 AM on Nov 17:
DC (#60) wrote:
>>Months ago he did send me a message via facebook to tell me to leave her alone <<
Ha ha! Something like that happened to me last week. My first thought was, "He doesn't know that she friended me..."
As a general rule, I try not to start fights...
...but if someone else starts a fight, by God I'm going to finish it.
I ended up having a private discussion with her about how his behavior was disrespectful, controlling and she deserved much better. And referring her to some Elisabeth Elliot writings on the subject.
62. BDB said the following at 11:34 AM on Nov 17:
Ooops...forgot context.
The woman in question is someone I went to high school with 20 years ago. And her FB updates over the last few weeks have generally been about how she had broken up with "the creep."
63. Vanessa said the following at 12:41 PM on Nov 17:
Jeremiah...do you happen to live in Florida? If not, do you know a single guy like you down here? LOL! I've read a few of your comments and I know a lot of girls who would love the opportunity to fight over you! =)
64. Jeremiah said the following at 2:17 PM on Nov 17:
(#63) Haha. Thanks Vanessa. I appreciate the compliment! (Though I’d be perfectly happy with one Godly woman – no fighting needed.) :)
Sadly, I live in Denver. I do travel some though, and will keep my ears open for some awesome Christian guys from Florida. Now if we could just get Boundless to host a few more regional events...
(PS. I am on FB; see jjwsfrog). ;)
65. DC said the following at 12:53 AM on Nov 18:
BDB (#61)
Yeah, I thought his message came off as very controlling. There was no hint at all either that he actually cared about her either. Granted I may be biased...but it seemed more territorial than anything. I initially was not going to reply, but my curiousity got the best of me. A few back-and-forths and I decided I would ask about marriage...that really got him going. Keep in mind he's had over 4 years already, and he said months or years. Basically...he will when he gets around to it. Sadly for me, all this stuff probably only made him look better. At least one friend of mine got pissed that I even replied...after already blaming me for his internet outburst in the first place.
Questions now...what do you think? How should a church handle a situation like this? The type you mentioned where a girl has a semi-secret, likely non-Christian, boyfriend.
Leave her alone? Support her in the relationship? Try to explain the craziness of it all and hope she listens? Go as far as suggesting she may need to be removed the church or at least any position in the church until she resolves her relationship?