From Boyhood to Manhood
by Motte Brown on 11/20/2009 at 3:57 PM
There is no in-between. At least, there shouldn't be according to Marc Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Washington.
In this video, Pastor Driscoll unpacks Luke 1:80 about John the Baptist's maturation into adulthood. He said the transition happened suddenly back then. Today there's an in-between stage called adolescence where "being a man is defined not by what you produce but by what you consume."
My favorite quote in the video: "What kills young men is this worldly thinking that this indefinite period of extended adolescence is acceptable, natural, and unavoidable."
Sadly, there's a lot of niceguys out there who fit this category.
HT: Adoption Road
1. dasiopa said the following at 4:59 PM on Nov 20:
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"Turn in a circle, and at any point stop -- there's one!"
...
"Hi, I have a Bible and a job. Interested? No? NEXT!"
Ladies, are you ready for the shotgun approach? CH-CLACK!
2. Gordon said the following at 8:15 PM on Nov 20:
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Hey Motte-
Thanks for posting this! Driscoll has some great points.
However, I think he doesn't consider some interesting circumstances. For example, I am a 2009 grad with a mechanical engineering degree (took me 4 years). I have been pursuing an mechanical design engineering career [in aerospace] since February with little luck and no interviews. I am living at home, working at Sears and substitute teaching math and science at my old high school.
So looking at Driscoll's 5 criteria for manhood:
-Move out of your parent's house
-Finish education/vocational training
-A career
-A wife
-Children
Having looked at those, I am currently 1 for 5.
So, the big question:
Does that mean I am not a man, but rather a boy that can shave?
I would submit that some of us don’t fit the two sides that Driscoll portrays. I think there is some grey area that needs to be defined. Driscoll mentions two sides: men (who have fulfilled a majority of the above), but also guys who pound beers, porn, women, and the xbox.
What about us who are in between?
Those of us who desire all 5 things listed above, but through circumstances out of our control have not acquired or received them? Who are not pursuing these things that aren’t “a good idea” as Driscoll calls them. We desire to be men and are doing our best at pursuing those things.
There has to be more to the definition of being a man than 5 “simple” socioeconomic markers.
And getting back to the big question,
I shudder to think that some people would see me as only a boy that can shave.
Soli Deo Gloria.
GRS
3. Leah said the following at 8:15 PM on Nov 20:
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There's a problem in that Driscoll (according to your post - I haven't watched the vid yet) has blurred adolescence with extended adolescence. Before the video you discuss adolescence; the quote afterwards refers to extended adolescence.
I would argue there has always been an in-between stage, it's just that 2000 years ago that in-between stage was at a much younger age than it is now.
Adolescence is fine. We cannot have 14 and 15 year olds marrying, getting fulltime jobs, driving, etc. But they are not the little boys they were when they were 9 or 10. They are learning to become men. They are adolescents.
4. Rachel Rae said the following at 8:30 PM on Nov 20:
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Awesome! I am *not* a guy basher, but I *do* appreciate real men who step up and say real words to the men (and boys : ) in the world around me. I have full confidence in the power of God to raise up eligible, purposeful, God-honoring men in my world and in the single worlds of the women I know.
As an aside, this was an awesome challenge to me, too! Sometimes, I grow weary of trying to be a wise and pure woman of God, but this was a great reminder to be an Elizabeth with no ifs, ands, or buts about it. : )
5. Keith said the following at 1:12 AM on Nov 21:
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Becoming a man isn't as easy as this speaker makes it out to be because there are so few opportunites for young men out there today.
Get a stable good job? In this economy?? I know 40 year olds with decades of experience who are taking up gas station jobs.
Find a lady, marry, and have a baby? I searched earnestly for 8 years before I found a suitable match.
Be involved with a church? Churches (generally speaking) are hostile towards single men. If a man has a family, or even a girlfriend that is ok...but come to church as a single man, and people begin to wonder if you are a weirdo or even a pedophile.
Really, I wanted to be married, have a kid, have finished my education, own a piece of property, and have a stable job by age 25 - I am now 26 and have none of that, despite all my ambitious hard work (ie. working 14 hours a day, praying and praying, taking initiative).
Sure,none of us like adultescents (whether they are male or female) but where are the opportunities for guys to become men?
6. Niko said the following at 5:54 AM on Nov 21:
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Stop socializing the needs of women creating entitlement princess and men will step up to the plate.
7. John said the following at 7:16 AM on Nov 21:
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AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
This is the single most important focus of my life and should be of the American church as well!
Just 150 years ago "boys" graduated from college at 16, 17 years old!
Every church should play this tomorrow in their morning service!
8. Rael said the following at 11:00 AM on Nov 21:
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Thank you for this, Motte. Loved this part: "I have a Bible and a job. Interested?"
This video was a good reminder to me as a woman to be more encouraging to my brothers who may be stuck in this phase. Nagging is the wrong approach, of course. But I also don't want to enable their adolescence! That sure takes patience and trusting God!
9. Jordan said the following at 1:07 PM on Nov 21:
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I actually was able to see this sermon live and some very similar thoughts came to mind. As a 24 year old medical student, I have only completed 1 of the 5 criteria for becoming a man. However, I feel like I don't have much of a choice like Gordon was saying. However, I don't think God ever envisioned it this way. Our culture is pushing for a longer adolescence and making it harder to become a man in a timely fashion. However, we still want to be men at a younger age causing teenage rebellion, Christian women living scarred that God doesn't have a man for them when their partner is trying to get a degree and those who are men physically wondering why their life still looks so much like childhood.
10. Laura said the following at 1:07 PM on Nov 21:
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It would be interesting to have a girl's version of this topic ("From Girlhood to Womanhood").
I hear a lot about what guys need to do to step up to the plate. I appreciate that those issues are being addressed, but what are the ladies supposed to be doing? I genuinely want to know.
Boundless, what can we women be doing to improve and grow in maturity?
11. Kathleen said the following at 1:43 PM on Nov 21:
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"-Move out of your parent's house
-Finish education/vocational training
-A career
-A wife
-Children"
Based on Driscoll's criteria, Jesus was, oh, about 60% of a man.
12. Jo said the following at 2:25 PM on Nov 21:
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Okay, I watched half of it. I know I'm gonna get pounded for commenting on only half of it but I really don't wanna waste another 11 minutes. This is supposed to teach us what?
John the Baptist left home, got himself educated, found a career, got married and had kids? 'Cause if not, Driscoll is going way off on a tangent that has absolutely no support in the verse he's supposedly basing this 'sermon' on.
Yes he does have some good points, but
a) his advice is entirely culture specific and based on stereotypes,
b) he focuses completely on outward signs of 'manliness' while ignoring the inner qualities that are actually Biblically important(if he came onto this later in the talk, I apologise) and
c) he could've fit everything he wanted to say into 5 minutes without all the unnecessary sarcasm.
It just ends up seeming to me that Driscoll is promoting his own view of what it means to be a man ("Come on guys, grow up and be like me!"), which while valid as his opinion, is not Scripture. He's proud that so many in his church are young men, but what if the philosophy he's encouraging is just the pseudo-spiritual equivalent of all the 'this will make you a man' consumer products that he criticises?
13. Jo said the following at 2:38 PM on Nov 21:
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Okay, I watched the rest. I retract b) - the last 5 minutes were good.
But the first 18 minutes? Not helpful and not that funny either.
14. Josie said the following at 2:45 PM on Nov 21:
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Tough words, but Pastor Driscoll's honesty is refreshing in a culture and society that so often discourages men from being manly. Besides telling guys just to "man up," the church also has the responsibility stepping alongside them as they do so (especially in mentoring!). By the same token, men, don't disparage the church, if it seems like there's "no room" for you, don't wait to be asked, take the initiative and serve. I go to a very small church, where the number of women out number of men among young adults. It is amazing and incredibly encouraging to see how God has used and grown the young men who have stepped up to serve the church (from ushering to worship to Sunday school, etc.). As one of the single women in the congregation, what makes these men attractive is not just their "manliness" per se, but that these men desire to be godly (a point Pastor Mark drove home at the end of the message).
15. Melvina said the following at 3:06 PM on Nov 21:
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If knowledge serves me right, the bible states that they boy Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and favor with men. Luke 2:52 the same is also said about the Prophet Samuel. I understand the purpose of the video, however if it's not in any means building up the body, then what use is it to post it. I do that instead of tearing down the process of maturity, that you are taking the other approach which is building up and equipping young boys to become godly men. It's safe to that we all are still maturing and perhaps God can say that we are immature and therefore not man or woman.
Constructive criticism is great, one that distroys is not, I'm not by any means saying that your opinions are distructive, I merely saying that I'm tired of the constant tearing down and bashing of the males both by the world and the church. I'm guilty for making statements like if he doesn't have....this or that...then...he's not a man. It's time to start asking a simple question when judging people; "Is this my standard(s) or is this God's standards(s)?. Happy postings!
16. Jeff said the following at 3:11 PM on Nov 21:
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John the Baptist never married and never had kids.
Also, there aren't a lot of women around in the Western world today who are virgins upon marriage.
Check out Art of Manliness website for great tips on masculine development.
17. BDB said the following at 3:13 PM on Nov 21:
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Huh. It just occurred to me that John the Baptist only had 1 of 5.
One presumes that because his parents were so old when they had him, he lost them young, so he definitely was no longer in their home.
18. Kellie said the following at 4:08 PM on Nov 21:
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I haven't watched the video, but from previous commenters, it would appear that I have completed more of the steps toward manhood than many men out there (4 out of 5--I don't have a wife :-) )
19. DC said the following at 4:35 PM on Nov 21:
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Oh how frustrating! At one time I was working on step 4 (had a gf), now I am unable to even get past step 1 (moving out of my parents house).
I would easily now fit in the adolescent/consumer boy description or Mark Driscoll's.
Although, I did move out, did get a degree, did start a caree, and like I said even started a relationship. Its just the relationship went sour in a hurry, moving back home to save $$ made sense, then economy went south and I was laid off.
So now I am living at home, have dim career prospects in the here and now. Im in the same boat as Gordon (#2)...I have a BSME (2006) and am looking for a machine (or product) design position. I cant find that, let alone any other position where my experience and skills are useful.
I have no idea why my life has gone in this direction. Its easy to try to blame myself...oh I should have gotten a better GPA, or should be more extroverted, or something like that. In the end, I suspect its more that God chooses to bless different people in different ways and at different times. Why is it that a friend of mine, same age as me, has a career, a wife, owns a home, and has a kid on the way? We both made similar choices in life...graduated high school, went to college, got degrees, started jobs, started relationships...they all worked for him, and none of it worked out for me. Im not complaining, just pointing out that 2 people can make very similar decisions in life and end up in wildly different situations.
I hope this is not just a show of my bias concerning my present circumstances i.e. unemployed bum living at home with little chance of getting anywhere for the foreseeable future. However, as much as Mark Driscoll's 5 steps are great and are things and guy/man should want and be working towards. It almost seems out of touch with reality to make them the definitive distincition between man and boy.
If anything, getting a college degree simply is no longer the ticket to success. Moving out of home too soon can be financially perilous for those just starting out in life. There are many males, even ones with jobs and their own place, that struggle to attract a girl...no matter how many times you spin them around.
Lastly...how many males out there are there that knocked a girl up soon after high school, then married her, then found a job that paid well enough for them to live on their own? Basically made very irresponsible decisions, yet ended up completing most of Mark Driscoll's list. Yet there are males who made seemingly all the right choices...and are not even getting past step 1.
20. Justin said the following at 4:44 PM on Nov 21:
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I think it's good that Marc Driscoll is tackling a very important issue. There are too many men out there who need to grow up. But his approach is too simplistic & general. It completely ignores the variety, diversity & complexity of experiences of men. This is a very narrow-minded modern approach to sermons. He needs to realise that times have changed and the postmodern world is here.
21. Charles said the following at 5:54 PM on Nov 21:
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Ted Slater needs to comment on this. He needs to associate himself - or disassociate himself - with some of the ideas presented here, as well as some this speaker's ideas off-site. Back when Debbie Maken published a screed containing scurilious ideas like "shaming" single Christian men, she was allowed a forum on Boundless for some of her ideas; and Boundless never quite got around to dealing with some of her off-site opinions. Delete me for snarkiness if you must, but do figure out a way, please, to reconcile this guy's ideas about finding a wife with Scott Croft's "Biblical Dating."
22. Brx said the following at 6:35 PM on Nov 21:
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Awesome! Careful with the stereotypes though; if you're going to judge people merely by their milestones, that isn't the love of Christ. Boundless has said it before, it's more the trajectory that's important.
I think we also should be careful in taking liberties with our Biblical interpretation and stating them boldly as fact. Truth is, we don't know all the details of what went on in the wilderness with John and that was a lot of years... years where people may have been chiding him "you're going to be a great minister eh, John? - yeah, right!"
I will suggest, I don't think we have enough serious life mentoring going on in the church for men. I've been really frustrated in the past when I was looking for a group of guys who wanted to get serious and grow. And, I saw a big disconnect with the typical seminary raised pastor trying to teach a Gordon [#2] how to follow God with a calling toward aerospace and engineering.
Marc finally summed it up well in his closing statements. :)
Grace, peace & adventure in humbly asking the Lord - and listening!
23. stacie Monaghan said the following at 7:05 PM on Nov 21:
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In my opinion, the world does the opposite to girls, pushing them to become "womanly" far too soon. However, the real Christian aspects of womanhood, (gentle and quiet spirit, respect, quiet strength, servant hood) are indeed hardly ever addressed, and even in my conservative church half or less are real women, in this sense.
One thing that has helped me grow up with a good perspective is getting together with the many single college-aged girls in my church, talking about being intentional in character development, serving our family, developing good relationships with our dads, waiting on God to give us to the right man, and encouraging the younger girls and boys to grow up with appropriate views... it's been invaluable!
24. anna said the following at 7:07 PM on Nov 21:
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@ Laura,
I'd like to know the same thing. And I'd also like to know how can single women interact with single men in that pre-courting stage?
I've seen the articles on what -not- to do, but how do we treat single men as our brothers in Christ, without being treated like a non-entity real sibling, or acting like we're the girlfriend when we are not?
What are the "How To's", not just the "Avoids"?
25. Julia said the following at 8:07 PM on Nov 21:
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I agree with Laura. What are things us young women can be doing to mature into womenhood!? I would LOVE to see that question addressed! Thanks.
26. a sassy sister said the following at 9:21 PM on Nov 21:
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(sighs):maturity is about character, not marital status. How does this encourage real unity and community in the body?
27. Keith said the following at 10:08 PM on Nov 21:
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Becoming a man is about taking on the responsibilities that life gives you; married or unmarried, in school or graduated, working or unemployed, we all have responsibilities. Whether or not one is a "man" depends not on one's situation (which often one has little control over) but on how one responds to the responsibilites that God gives to them.
28. khalil said the following at 11:33 PM on Nov 21:
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#2 says...
"So looking at Driscoll's 5 criteria for manhood:
-Move out of your parent's house
-Finish education/vocational training
-A career
-A wife
-Children"
I am in the process of getting ready for church here but I am downloading the video for later viewing, my comments may change afterward. But...
This is the same issue I had with the Mohler article. Making the definition of manhood require children and a wife. What about married men with children, living in their own home, working on their Master's or PhD? I suppose they are less than "men".
I personally feel that in defining manhood we need to look at the character of what makes a man, not just the tangible milestones (marriage, etc). If an individual has a strong character then I'd wager to say he'd be a man in whatever situation he is placed in.
29. Alex B. said the following at 12:34 AM on Nov 22:
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To all my fellow men here who are pointing out that they're doing the right things, but not there yet: I think it's pretty evident that Driscoll is exaggerating a bit to make a point. I don't think he's criticizing men (boys? guys?) in their early or mid 20s who are still finishing their educations, as long as they have a definite plan and haven't been wasting time and money in college.
I largely agree with what he's saying, and there are definitely some problems with the system as it is. Even for a man with a plan, you might move out at 18, finish college at 22, take a few months or years (depending on what jobs you can find and your degree) to get a solid job, and thus not end up marrying until at least 25, let alone have kids much before you're 30. This isn't a terrible thing, as whether you're doing the right things matter more than the exact age at which you hit these milestones, but it doesn't help matters.
Laura (#10), I'm glad to hear a woman asking what women should be doing. I do sometimes think that there are a lot of (well-deserved) calls on Boundless for guys to "man up", but not very many for girls to... I guess "woman up"? I think Driscoll touches on it in his sermon, and I hope he goes further at some point. Yes, women absolutely need to stop subsidizing the bad behavior of immature men. It's awfully frustrating for, say, an engineer who lives on his own and is saving to buy a house to be single, while seemingly every starving artist he knows lives in his mom's basement but has a girlfriend. (Exaggerating for effect, here, but you get the idea.) But there are some other things that make men in general less prone to be all that we can be.
Men need to be needed. Niko (#6) touches on this briefly. The prevailing message that society directs at men these days is that we're terrible, immature, stupid, and unnecessary. Watch practically any commercial or family sitcom, and the husband is an idiot who can't do anything right without his wife's correction. Some encouragement for men to marry, huh?
There are little things women can do to counteract this, such as clearly appreciating when men do things like open doors for you, or even actively encouraging men around you to do these sorts of traditionally chivalrous things.
The bigger things, though? Don't buy the line that women should put career before family. If you're single and want to be a mom more than a career woman, don't hide that from the single men you know. I don't want to annoy those on here who are sick of hearing the pro-stay-at-home-mom talk, but frankly, knowing that a woman you love is depending on you -- or that the women around you are looking for genuine husband material -- is pretty much the biggest motivation there is for a man to work his butt off and get where he needs to be.
30. Grant said the following at 4:54 AM on Nov 22:
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This reminds me of this message by Rick Holland. Check it out:
https://www.gracechurch.org/media/details/?mediaID=419
31. Peter said the following at 5:28 AM on Nov 22:
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I fully agree that too many of us - of both sexes - remain immature for far too long, but the criteria espoused in this sermon are neither entirely historically correct, nor reasonable for some of us.
Historically , and particularly when referring to an agrarian tribal society, you did not leave home, but took up responsibilities within the family business Your education for your career did not take place at a school or university, but as an apprenticeship to your father and uncles..
My experience was one in which family responsibilities were not carried out by leaving home, but by remaining in it. I fulfilled them by caring and providing for my parents, not leaving them or placing them in the care of others. Building a seperate home would have irrationally wasted scarce resources. I have met many "nice girls".... that is not the problem. My problem is meeting one who is not only "nice", but with whom I believe I can share a life and make a success of building a home and raising a family.
I recognise that there is a problem with some immature men refusing to take on the responsibility of marraige and family. But I also know immature men who have married and had children without taking responsibility for their actions. We should not be so obsessed with mnarraige that we put the cart before the horse. Girls, if a boy is immature, marrying him will not somehow make him mature and responsible. You may only be enabling his irresponsibility as much as his parents did when he lived with them. You have been warned.
Peter
32. P&P said the following at 8:19 AM on Nov 22:
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A few things:
1. I'd like to see a citation for how these five steps were established. Is this academic research or is it folklore?
2. Blaming women. C'mon can't Driscoll do better than this? I too, have seen women fall into these enabling relationships (e.g. supporting the guy so his band can "make it big") but instead of blaming and chastising, start encouraging women to hold out until they can find an adult.
3. I do agree that one of the biggest barriers to maturity is the taker vs. giver mentality, which should have been a bigger part of the message. It's in Sony's best interest to keep people playing video games; it's how they make money.
33. Brx said the following at 2:10 PM on Nov 22:
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Re: Laura [#10];
In my opinion, a couple of the most awesome, general qualities of a Godly woman is skill (and genuine heart) in being a tactful encourager, and spiritual sensitivity towards the needs of others.
Grace, peace & humble adventure
34. Brad said the following at 2:30 PM on Nov 22:
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We live in a time when women are much, much, better at getting jobs than men. By and large, women are better communicators, more organized, better groomed, and more stylish than men. This does not excuse men, but much of the problem with men is that traditionally "male" characteristics are being socialized out at a very young age.
It is much more difficult for a 22 year old man who has been socialized emasculated to step up to the plate than it is for a woman who has been told all her life that she can do anything that men can do and do it better.
We have more men finishing college (or not) totally confused about who they are and what they need to do than at any time in history. I'm thankful that I have a church that identifies the problem and is working to fix it, but it is still really, really difficult once you've had one system ground into you for so many years.
35. anon. said the following at 4:27 PM on Nov 22:
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Pastor Driscoll has some good points, BUT...I actually take some offense to how he presents this message. I feel his oversimplifies things and really goes from the text.
John (#5), this should be played in churches?!! I thing that the Gospel expounded should be presented in church. I think this would be better presented at a retreat or something.
I also do think a ladies version of this would be helpful. I'm 30, not able to buy a house yet, have a job, but have not yet been blessed with a spouse and therefore not children.
I think we need to be careful with "lists." Not to make excuses, and definitely to take responsibility...but really, putting things in "steps" is awfully dangerous!!!!
36. Heidi M. said the following at 6:08 PM on Nov 22:
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Very good video. I've passed it on.
I think there is some potential for confusion with the manner in which adolescence is presented. The five historical indicators of a boy reaching a man that he gives at the beginning used to be appropriate at 12-13 years of age. Obviously, Mark isn't saying that 13 year olds should move out, finish education, begin careers, get married, and have kids. It's only towards the end that he sums up what it means to be a man in a way that can apply even to the teenage years, and it has more to do with spiritual growth than anything else. So he's addressing both adolescence and extended adolescence in the same breath--it's up to viewers to discern the distinction and apply accordingly.
37. Vanessa said the following at 6:54 PM on Nov 22:
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If a guy who owns a Bible (especially if he's involved in church activities/volunteering), has a job (that is/will be in the future able to provide for a family w/ a SAHM), and isn't divorced (personal preference) asks me out...I don't say no. Neither do most of the women I know. My last serious boyfriend did the "shot gun" approach...he asked out every girl in our group, and kept asking out those of us who were kind in our first rejections. I was the only one who agreed to go out with him and we had a 2.5 year relationship that ended up not working out, but it was a wonderful growing experience for me. He has since married and I wish him the best.
But seriously...a Christan man with a career path (even if he repairs air conditioners or something!) who is serious about his faith and serious about getting married has no reason to not get married if he wants to be married. I think the exception to this rule is if you live in Alaska. THEN, I will let you say that there are no good women around. =)
Men and women both need to grow up and accept responsibility instead of choosing to live it up with guys and/or girls nights every weekend and living with a house-full of same sex roommates. If you spend all of your free time with your own gender, how are you ever going to meet anyone to marry?
38. Texas Craig said the following at 8:54 PM on Nov 22:
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I don't think Driscoll is saying those 5 elements are the criteria for manhood. He was simply giving a historical example, and explaining how culturally men have moved away from greater responsibilities. The criteria listed are just examples of responsibilities that men can take on that are likely to mature them. If he were saying those are the criteria for manhood, then his other statements would be completely inconsistent. For example, John the Baptist never married or had children, but Driscoll recognizes him as a "real man." Therefore, let's listen to his statements in context. I think he makes some great points. The problem, though, in my opinion is with the parents of many "young men" nowadays -- who failed to raise them to be responsible and mature.
39. Andrea said the following at 11:08 PM on Nov 22:
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Does a girl only become a woman when she has children? I can see the point of that qualification for men, but I can't help but wonder if I would be up in arms if that same standard was applied to women. Right or wrong, that's my reaction.
40. jack said the following at 2:37 AM on Nov 23:
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I have noticed a sustained use of the verb "unpack" lately on boundless.
No longer cute. Fad is over. Before this finds its way into common usage.
Ug.
41. Rachel said the following at 4:16 AM on Nov 23:
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A couple of the guys commenting mentioned that they're only on step one of the five, but they don't consider themselves 'boys who shave'. I think the point is that you are intentionally pursuing the other goals - you haven't got there yet, but you're not purposely delaying or avoiding them. I think that's what makes the difference.
42. a sassy sister said the following at 9:07 AM on Nov 23:
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Here's a question:
Which is easier: To complain about male immaturity and talk about how guys aren't stepping to the plate, or to actually share life and disciple them, so that they are actually equipped to step up to the plate.
Too many people complain about the problem but are unwilling to really be a part of the solution, especially if it is unconvenient.
43. Doug Braase said the following at 9:25 AM on Nov 23:
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I thought this was a great video from Pastor Driscoll! I have fallen victim to extended adolesence and completely embody everything he was talking about when it comes to a boy who can shave. I'm glad that my eyes are opened up to my actions and to what I should be pursuing in my life. Thank you so much for posting this video!!
44. Todd said the following at 9:31 AM on Nov 23:
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Agreed, Jack. Done to death.
45. Ashley said the following at 9:35 AM on Nov 23:
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I've seen this clip before. It was a favorite of a friend of mine who... as a woman was nowhere near ready for marriage herself -- and is still deeply in female Adultescence, but still expected to be treated like a woman.
Frustrating for the guys out there? I'm sure!
I would say, from observation that female adultescense does look different than the Peter Pan Syndrome that I often see in men. A girl that refuses to become a woman will pour her life into chick flicks and romance novels, expecting Mr. Darcy to come and rescue her from her single state without putting any real effort toward her own spiritual or economic growth. She will spend her time and money on vanities, preserving her physical self, wasting hours at the gym and the salon at the expense of her intellegence and her maturity. She will squander time gossiping and shopping, getting sucked into the materialism that our culture offers without thought toward the character qualities shown in Proverbs 31. Her opinions and thoughts are shallow, based only on those who she's surrounded by, not founded in scripture or on her own thoughtful meditation.
But! Time and again, it is THIS woman that is sought after, in our culture! A girl that will mold easily to their own opinions and outwardly beautiful is more appealing to many men than a girl that has an alluring character. Where is the incentive to "Woman Up" when the penalty for spiritual and intellectual growth, finishing your education, having a career and moving out of your parent's home is prolonged singleness?
46. D said the following at 9:47 AM on Nov 23:
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Gordon (#2) & others -
I've listened to a lot of Driscoll, and one thing we always have to keep in mind is the context in which he is preaching. Context, context, context!
He is preaching in SEATTLE. SEATTLE! He is preaching to his home church - a church that has extreme financial problems because very few of the men step up and fulfil their God given duty to give - and namely to people who have never heard this before. He is preaching to 'men' who have never heard that it is not ok to mooch off your parents. He is preaching to 'men' who are living with their girlfriends, taking advantage of them emotionally, physically, and financially. He is trying to light a fire under them to get them off their butt and get out and fulfill what they are supposed to be as men.
There is a huge difference between someone who knows everything Driscoll laid out in the video, is actively pursuing it, but hasn't been blessed by God with it because of circumstances beyond their control (ie, the economy) and someone who is passively moving through life mooching and taking advantage of those around them (ie, parents or girlfriend) so that they can play more xbox. Don't be too quick to lump yourself in the latter group if you are actively pursuing the first but haven't got there yet.
D
47. Susan H. said the following at 9:56 AM on Nov 23:
47
I know that I've been enabling someone in my life in an area of immaturity, but I've kept it up because I didn't want to damage that relationship. The relationship isn't great in the first place, and whose fault is that? Mine, in part, for being the enabler. I'm going to face up to that now. Thanks.
48. Gordon said the following at 10:07 AM on Nov 23:
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Rachel #41: Right on. I think you bring up a very good point. Thanks!
DC #19: Daily emails from Monster man! You can set up a job emailer thing with your qualifications and it will email you relevant jobs matching your skills. Check it out! :) Thanks for posting!
Kathleen #11: Comforting to know that I only have 40% to go until I am equal with the manliest dude in the world! :P
To all the ladies: Thank you for posting and thank you for the encouragement you give us as men. I definitely agree with some of you, Boundless should do a more in-depth article about "womanliness."
***
A friend of mine emailed this to me after I asked his take on this video:
"In contrast, at the end of his rant he defines a man as:
-being filled with the spirit
-one who's life work is to introduce others to Jesus
-a giver
-a producer
-a creator and a contributer.
If you have a vision for your life, if that vision is in line with the work God has for you, if you are actively devoted to realizing that vision, and if you are relying on the power of the holy spirit to achieve this vision, then you meet Mark's criterion for manhood." -From my friend Justin
GRS
49. a sassy sister said the following at 10:19 AM on Nov 23:
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vanessa, you wrote:
But seriously...a Christan man with a career path (even if he repairs air conditioners or something!) who is serious about his faith and serious about getting married has no reason to not get married if he wants to be married. I think the exception to this rule is if you live in Alaska. THEN, I will let you say that there are no good women around. =)
Men and women both need to grow up and accept responsibility instead of choosing to live it up with guys and/or girls nights every weekend and living with a house-full of same sex roommates. If you spend all of your free time with your own gender, how are you ever going to meet anyone to marry?
Please be mindful that there are single men and women who are RESPONSIBLE and doing their best to meet other godly men and women, and still, despite their efforts, are not married. Protracted singleness, despite well intentioned(but poorly informed and miseducated) efforts to address the issue is not a one size fits all thing.
50. Cat said the following at 10:56 AM on Nov 23:
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I never considered the qualities that make a person an adult physical. I always thought they were spiritual, emotional, and mental. I think it's kind of silly to say that guy who isn't married isn't a man. I know older men who have never been married but are real men of God. I know college age guys who are better men then guys who in their 40's.
Moreover, we quickly define womanhood by predominately spiritual qualities (Quiet spirit, gentle, servant's heart). Why would manhood be any different? I don't think I became a real woman until my heart was broken for the first time. The shock and pain caused me to find out who I was and led me to the throne of God. I still wouldn't qualify a heart that's been broken as something that must happen to every woman. It's just how it happened with me.
I do think, however, women encourage boys to stay boys. Last night my mom and I were talking and she mentioned a guy in her past who had dated her without intention of marriage. She wasn't a Christian at the time. Anyways, I was really confused by that and I told her that I could never date a guy like that. That, if he's not looking for marriage it's more likely he's looking for something he's not going to find in me, be it sex or emotional confirmation.
I do think that guys (and girls) should show some signs of physical maturity before marriage. For instance, moving out, taking care of one's own finances, paying regular bills, and/or holding a consistent job. I don't think I could really respect a guy who was completely unable to keep a job. And I define job as anything from earning a college degree, to an hourly wage position, to a corporate/management position. Basically a responsibility that must be regularly attended to.
51. E. Stephen Burnett (Dr. Ransom) said the following at 10:59 AM on Nov 23:
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Just a quick hit: how or when to become a man is not at all the point of Luke 1:80. Plenty of other verses support being a man-not-a-boy of character, discipline and God-honoring ambition. That verse isn't one of them.
We already have enough evangelical leaders reading Personal Character Development Messages out of Scripture.
Figure A: Passages describing how patriarchy-structured families worked, such as husbands finding spouses for their daughters or acting as the "high priests" of their families, are being used to support the same kinds of lifestyles today. This has abominable results for mothers, adult daughters, and men.
Figure B: Others take the stories of Moses and the burning bush, or other prophets, and conclude that they can't make a choice or take a risk without some kind of advance word from God confirming one way or the other.
Driscoll would surely condemn such it's-all-about-me approaches, which read meanings into Scripture, not truths out of it. I hope he won't do the same thing himself, even if it is for the good and worthy goal of encouraging men to grow up.
Let's look to Christ as our example, and base good teachings not on poor and eisegeted "meanings" in the Bible.
52. sarah elizabeth said the following at 11:40 AM on Nov 23:
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I dont really feel like actually getting into this; I just want to mention on thing.
I have trouble when people put qualifiers such as having children in this type of thing (for a man or a woman). Sure, having children is usually something that will cause a man/woman to grow up a little more than they already were since they know have to care for a person.
However, please remember that there are MANY couples out there who cant have children or who are trying and it isnt happening for them. Or got pregnant and then miscarried. before anyone starts dissing on married couples who havent had children...know their story. You have no idea who you run into every day that is has gone/is going through the pain of not being able to conceive or a miscarriage (or 2 or 3..).
53. Julie said the following at 12:06 PM on Nov 23:
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Ashley #45 said "But! Time and again, it is THIS woman that is sought after, in our culture! A girl that will mold easily to their own opinions and outwardly beautiful is more appealing to many men than a girl that has an alluring character. Where is the incentive to "Woman Up" when the penalty for spiritual and intellectual growth, finishing your education, having a career and moving out of your parent's home is prolonged singleness?"
I know--it is frustrating. But here's what I've found. The best men don't feel that way. It's like a dating filter--if someone isn't interested in you because you are a competent woman of well-developed spiritual and emotional character, it's no loss to you because such a man would not make a good husband for you anyway. The right man will love you for those things and not feel it detracts from your femininity or marriageability.
54. Vanessa said the following at 2:19 PM on Nov 23:
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#45 - I agree.
Sassy Sister - I was mostly speaking about men who don't ask women out but who are SURROUNDED by good, Godly women who are DYING to be asked out by one of the three guys in the group of 40. Here in Central Florida, any given church has a ratio of approximately 20 females to 1 male and if you narrow that down to the "eligible" males and "eligible" females (ie: pursuing a Godly lifestyle and ready/willing/desiring to be married) your ratio becomes even more skewed with probably 30 females per 1 male. So when I hear that one male saying that he can't find a good woman to date when 4 of the 30 have crushes on him...I get upset. If he asks out 3 of the 30 and none of those 3 are the ones interested in him...he gives up asking anyone else out, leaving plenty of marriageable women dateless and relationshipless.
I know shouting from the rooftops that you have a crush on someone isn't the greatest thing to do, but if guys were clued in a little more to which girls are actually interested and they ask those girls out, the response rate gets a little better.
I do know a couple of really good men who can't find a woman to be their helpmate and I really feel for them. Most of them have a tendency to come on REALLY strong in the beginning with a girl they like and it freaks her out. I'm not talking about just calling every day or something...I'm talking about writing love poems to someone they've spent 2 hours talking to. They're in earnest, but it's just too much.
55. Jeremy said the following at 6:28 PM on Nov 23:
55
E. Stephen Burnett (Dr. Ransom) (#51):
I would have to agree with that; however noble Driscoll's intentions may be in this tangent, he really is in no way pulling anything from the Scripture passage itself. It seems bizarre to use a person about whom we have no record between childhood and age 30 as an example of someone who avoided "extended adolescence".
I really like Marc Driscoll overall, but I found this video to be a bit weak (although the sermon as a whole had a fair bit more content). I hope people unfamiliar with his teaching will not assume this is all there is to him.
56. Kyra said the following at 7:25 PM on Nov 23:
56
To those who question their "adult" status because they are living with parents...I feel your pain! After living on my own in various parts of the country for almost a decade, I found myself an unemployed single mom living back home. Now that I'm working again I guess I pass the test for "degree (with debt), career, child" but no spouse or home of my own. Wow, all the hard ones and none of the fun ones on the list :(....
Anyway, I think the key is that all of you seem to be striving to reach this state of adulthood and, like me, feel discontent that you have not. I often tell my friends that this whole stage of my life feels a bit like you would feel if you were a teenager still going to the pediatrician's. The whole office is full of little children and set up with toys for kids much younger, and you may have problems or questions that just can't be answered there. A normal teen would feel embarrassed in such a situation.
I think the people we need to worry about are the ones who are not embarrassed or ashamed of their situation, and who have no real drive or motivation to change (think "Failure to Launch" although I didn't actually see the movie).
I also think young adults in our situation need to be careful not to despair too much and give Satan footholds into our lives. For example, don't completely tie your identity to your career and financial success. I've learned that it is possible to grow and develop spiritually and emotionally and further adulthood that way, even if I'm no closer to having my own place. Don't be so insecure about your situation that you avoid dating or turn people off with constant negativity.
If you are in a relationship, don't delay marriage and family while you're getting your ducks in a row, so to speak. Especially the guys. If I waited until my student loan debt were entirely paid off and I owned a home before I even considered getting engaged...let's just say they'd be wheeling me into the nursing home as a single woman...
57. Kyra said the following at 7:40 PM on Nov 23:
57
PS- I just had a thought in regard to everyone's comments on the whole "marriage and children?" criteria....
In the Catholic Church we talk about "vocations" and I'm not sure if all Christians use that word, but I think that's more the idea Driscoll is getting at. In other words, a big step toward adulthood is realizing, moving toward, and living your vocation. This was presented as "marriage and children" because that is typically the vocation to which most Christian adults are called. I have friends who are celibate nuns who obviously are not married with children, but they have matured to adulthood through living their vocations.
The vocations are "married with children" and "called to be single" (and, for Catholics, "religious life") By these criteria, both Jesus and John the Bapitist fulfilled the requirements of adulthood by living their vocations even though they didn't marry and have children.
So intent is key here. The desire to discern and pursue your spiritual vocation. To those who were offended about the "children" issue, I think that again, intent plays a huge part. In other words, there is a big gap in the level of adulthood between a married couple who are not open to children or choose not to have them for selfish reasons, and a couple who are open to children but nevertheless are childless.
58. James said the following at 9:07 PM on Nov 23:
58
My first visit to the Boundless site after spending several weeks on the blogs for the young married couples and being very impressed with the blog posts there (http://www.focusonlinecommunities.com/community/marriage/youngmarried) I have to say I'm disappointed with this video. If this is the definition of what a man should be then I want no part of it. A real man is defined by his character (remember when men had character and integrity and honor?) and his devotion to God, all other milestones are arbitrary.
59. endlessnights said the following at 12:32 AM on Nov 24:
59
Hmmm...For some reason Mark Driscoll always strikes me as the guy who was a popular football jock at school...
I have no doubt about the five points he makes, I agree with most of them, heck I look at myself and look at areas Im involved, areas where I need to step up, I know that, but he doesn't exactly make us guys want to man up because he seems to have it all 'together', he doesn't RELATE to his audience, 'just ask a girl out' oh yea sure great, try telling us about how you tried and failed first, let those you are preaching to see your human side, that is part of being a preacher, being transparent.
60. Amir Larijani said the following at 5:44 AM on Nov 24:
60
Vanessa: Florida is hardly the benchmark for what is going on everywhere else. Moreover, in my college years--I graduated from Embry-Riddle, Daytona Beach campus, in 1990--I never saw those numbers that you are speaking of in my church experiences down there.
In fact, in my collegiate church life, most of the "single" women were already taken: they were either (a)divorced, (b) dating, or (c) engaged. The others were intermittent in their attendance, which was not at all uncommon for the guys either.
My post-collegiate life took me to Anderson, Indiana; Louisville, Kentucky, and other portions of central Kentucky, I can tell you that I've yet to see anything close to what you are reporting from Florida.
In fact, I have been in no small number of churches where I am the only single person--of either sex--in the building.
Part of my experience involved one of the largest churches in Kentucky. I can tell you exactly what happens if you are single and male: they stick you in the "singles" class, where the women do outnumber the men: the women are mostly in their 50s or over, and have been married before.
The 9,000 pound elephant in the room is thisthis: why is it that Jews--who are not as populous as Christians--can get their young married off fairly easily, and yet Christians are seeing a whole slew of their younger generation get drawn into protracted singleness?
I'll tell you why: If I'm Jewish, I have a whole NETWORK on my side!!!
If you're a gal in Philadelphia, and I'm your Rabbi, and I realize that you are single and would like to be married, all I have to do is call a Rabbi in Cincinnati or Pittsburgh or New York, get the contact info for an upstanding guy in that venue, get the families together, and--in about a year--we're having a wedding.
Singles are paying a horrendous price for the fragmentation of the Church.
Fact is, men are handling far more of the marital pursuit than they ever did in past generations. They often do not have their whole family helping them in the network and vetting departments. They are not meeting their mates in college.
In the church, they are on their own.
Even in my situation, I have actually placed a great deal of trust in FutureMrsLarijani's network.
Some of my friends have met her--and their feedback has been good--but still, her church folks have been more ideal in structure than mine have been. Our families are strung out all over the country, so none of my folks have met her folks.
I say all of this to point out that there is more to this than the pat answers Driscoll provides from Seattle.
61. JuliestD said the following at 8:45 AM on Nov 24:
61
Couldn't a man stay single and avoid the mess of the world and still be a man?
Motte, is there any place anymore for, ??? monastics?
My husband and I think often about who our (future) children will marry, as godly mates seem to be harder and harder to come by.
I am becoming convinced (oddly, as a married woman) that if we could again in the church make a *meaningful* place for singles to serve, more would choose difficult and God-glorifying choices like purposeful singleness.
I mean, why do we have so many people who have kids and then find they can't spend any time with them and still be able to live so they both have jobs, never see each other or their kids, then they want to get divorced. *they want to be single again* they realize they should not have maybe gotten married. Not just to this person, in general.
It used to be that there were some people in society who looked at their life and were able to see that they would serve God and society best if they did not marry. I challenge "real men" to boldly face the possibility that this reality still exists.
Marriage is not for adolescents, and it is not for everyone. Paul said that he thought it best if everyone could be as he is (single and free to serve only God).
62. Julie said the following at 9:25 AM on Nov 24:
62
There have been other posts on Boundless suggesting that women remain in the family home until marriage. Maybe it's just men that need to leave?
I think it's good for both genders to leave home and become independent. But I also recognize this is a cultural viewpoint on my part. In many cultures and likely in biblical times, extended families tended to stick together.
63. Sarah P. said the following at 11:36 AM on Nov 24:
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Kyra (#57): In the Catholic Church we talk about "vocations" and I'm not sure if all Christians use that word, but I think that's more the idea Driscoll is getting at. In other words, a big step toward adulthood is realizing, moving toward, and living your vocation.
I think you're right. I hear about "vocation" a lot at my workplace, and I think it's a topic more evangelicals need to understand. I also think Candice and others on here are tacitly agreeing with that concept in books such as Get Married -- asking women to "women up," so to speak, by admitting that they believe they have a future vocation in marriage and so moving toward that goal as wisely as possible. And it's the same for men.
64. Robby Hall said the following at 2:56 PM on Nov 24:
64
I have to agree with Keith [27] and Khalil [28], in fact I think they are spot on. A real man takes the responsibilities that God gives him and works through them with prayer, faith, and stumbling, ha.
I also agree with what some of the women have said. There is little to no word as to what makes a christian woman and much of what is written for them is usually in the way of finding a husband rather than being a woman of character.
I like Marc Driscoll, but I'm afraid this is a place he and I will part company. If men used the same standard in viewing women, I assume there would be an uproar.
Character is best viewed under duress. And, as we saw in Job's life, that duress is allowed by God to purify us.
Personally, I think men just get tired of being under a microscope that only evaluates their value as a spouse and that value based on a worldly opinion rather than a God-based opinion.
As John Eldridge put it best, men seek to be validated by women rather than God.
Men and women should seek the character God has chosen for them and not look to a person or their circumstances to make that judgment but rather look to the God that saved them from sin and gave them eternal life. If God is for you, who can be against you?
Just one man's opinion
65. Bryce said the following at 10:29 PM on Nov 24:
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@ James (#58)
Did you actually watch the video?
As Gordon (#48) said, this is how Driscoll defines manhood in the last 5 minutes of his message:
a man is
-being filled with the spirit
-one who's life work is to introduce others to Jesus
-a giver
-a producer
-a creator and a contributer.
The first list he gives applies the above character to the current culture. If, as you say, you want no part in Driscoll's 'manliness', then you want no part in: leaving your parent's house, earning a living, marrying a wife and having children? I think you are the one erring here. If your character is in the right place, these things will follow.
66. Evan said the following at 3:44 PM on Nov 25:
66
Let's take some random facts about me as an example, since I'm so familiar with the subject. =)
I'm twenty-seven, single and living with my parents. I have an engineering degree and a good, career-oriented job. I have some debts I'm trying to pay off because I was stupid. I attend my church faithfully, and have been part of the worship and sound teams for nearly a decade. I sometimes struggle with lust. I try to be a responsible church member, family memeber, and citizen. I try to be a good mentor to my younger brothers in the church. I sometimes struggle with a short temper. I run my church's website.
Obviously, some of these things I'm more happy about than others. Obviously, I'm not the man I could or should be. But, obviously, I'm not the overgrown teenager who sits around in his parents basement playing WoW and lamenting the fact that he can't get a hot date this weekend.
So where do guys like myself fit in this picture? We could definitely use the kind of tough talk that Marc is talking here. We do need to be reminded, often and in no uncertain terms, that mediocrity is not good enough. But we resent being lumped in with guys who aren't even trying.
Yeah, we need to be more bold and intentional about our relationships. But how does his "Bible. Job. Interested?" advice help the guy who ministers at a church every week where there are a total of three single women in there 20's, two being his sisters and the other one not being interested? How does "these twenty year-olds are just idiots" help the guy who does make mistakes but who worked his way through the toughest major at his school?
A lot of us do want and need help. Even the "I'm not those things, but I'm trying, so that should count" line gets old after a while. Results do matter. But we don't want to be treated as babies drinking beer out of a sippy-cup in a stroller at the mall. Because we're not.
Perhaps Pastor Driscoll's message is appropriate for his congragation. I don't know. But I don't think it applies well to most of the single Christian guys I know.
67. David Beldon said the following at 9:22 PM on Nov 25:
67
Finally some Driscoll on here! I love that guy and have listened to almost all his sermons. I loved how he challenges me to be a man and all of you men should too. He is tough on guys but he loves them. If you listen to more of his stuff he is encouraging you to set goals for yourself and achieve them and not to be satisfied being a boy. He is not there to condemn you, but he may make fun of you and thats ok. From my count John the Baptiser moved out, had a career (prophet), wasnt called to a wife, and chose to travel around without a home. So he accomplished all of those marks of manhood God called him live out.
68. Keith said the following at 12:58 AM on Nov 30:
68
Having watched the Marc Driscoll video several more times, I have realized there is a huge error in the logic presented.
Marc Driscoll evaluates a man on his accomplishments and not how he got those accomplishments. If you are married, in his opinion, you are a man. But a guy may be married only because he got his girlfriend pregnant, while a guy who faithfully serves the Lord may still be single because he is committed to waiting for the one God has for him.
The above is just a specific example, but overall there is a real danger in defining manliness by the accomplishment of certain goals. Those goals may have been achieved through immoral means. A man may be married because he dated a non-Christian girl. He may have a good job because he cheated through out university and lied on his resume. He might have a child because he got his girlfriend pregnant and she resisted his demands for an abortion.
A Christian man may be unemployed because he was fired for displaying Christian integrity in the workplace.
Marriage, financial independence, having a job, and having children really are not what being a man is all about.
69. Cassandra said the following at 4:43 PM on Dec 2:
69
I think some commenters are getting unncessarily offended because they don't meet up with these 5 benchmarks of adulthood. As a previous poster commented, the idea is that you're pursuing the 5, not that you have to have everything all together. And the various exceptions people are listing are splitting hairs.
Like Boundless, Driscoll aims to be counter-cultural, and right now marriage and child rearing are losing favorability rapidly in a society where we young people are increasingly self-centered. Driscoll's style is to synthesize and deliver in punchy soundbytes; he's just making a point.
And regarding John the Baptist, Driscoll makes the point later in the sermon that he probably wasn't called to marriage and fatherhood because his head was going to end up on a silver platter.
70. a sassy sister said the following at 6:18 PM on Dec 2:
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re, Cassandra, comment 69:
While I cannot speak for other commenters who are troubled by Driscoll's logic, I can and will speak for myself when I say this: My problem with Driscoll's logic is scriptural first, culturally second. John the Baptist was beheaded for taking a stand against sin(among other things). Let's not try to create things from matters Scripture is silent on. If the church really wants young people to take stock of the importance of marriage and family, here's what would be helpful:
a church united by the gospel, being one family through Christ. Stop treating young adults and singles like second class citizens, making marriage and children another hoop for people to go through before they're treated like adults by the body.
Disciple and encourage men, making the church an environment that affirms that our identities are in Christ,not in our careers, jobs, or spouses.
Change the mindset of "demographic" ministry in churches and create opportunities for intergenerational relationships and mentoring.