Dr. James Dobson, Signing Off: Episode 94
by Motte Brown on 11/05/2009 at 1:30 PM
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Dr. Dobson Leaving the Daily Broadcast -- 0:00
In this week's Roundtable, Lisa, Steve and I discuss Dr. Dobson's upcoming departure from the ministry he founded 32 years ago. Here's a portion of last week's press release announcing his decision:
Focus on the Family Founder and Chairman Emeritus James C. Dobson, Ph.D., will leave the ministry as its primary radio voice at the end of February, the ministry announced today.
Dr. Dobson's departure from the radio program and from official affiliation with the organization he founded in 1977 is just the "third chapter in a transition that began in 2003," when Dr. Dobson stepped down as Focus president, said Jim Daly, the ministry's president and CEO. It was a mutual decision between Dr. Dobson and the ministry's board of directors, which Dr. Dobson left in February of this year, Daly added.
This is a momentous occasion for Focus on the Family. But as Jim Daly said in the release, it "has never been about one man. That's why Dr. Dobson has always refused to have his name put on any building here. It's about doing the Lord's work in helping families."
The Screwtape Interview, Part 1 -- 9:05
I'm pretty much the only guy I know who hasn't read C.S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters. Just never got around to that it I guess. But now thanks to Focus on the Family Radio Theatre I can pop in the CD featuring Andy Serkis (Gollum, The Lord of the Rings) on my way to and from work. In this week's Culture segment, Lisa interviews producer Dave Arnold and director Paul McCusker for a behind the scenes look at the making of the Lewis classic, including spiritual attacks. As a special treat, we've included audio excerpts of the production between the segments. So don't skip the bumpers this week.
Help! Women Keep Rejecting Me -- 24:47
What's the flip side to complaints from women about lack of male initiation? That's right, men whose initiative is often met with rejection. What's a guy to do when he's out there laying his heart on the line but keeps getting rejected for seemingly no other reason than mere preference? Well, Steve and Lisa offer some encouragement and practical wisdom for these brave risk-takers.
1. Rebekah in SoCal said the following at 2:20 PM on Nov 5:
If these are men who are pursuing godliness (mentorship, church service . . .) and are ready for marraige (meaning they are not "lost boys" or "walking wounded"), why aren't women agreeing to a date or two?
Sometimes, when you get to know someone one-on-one, you find out that they are "better" than you thought. Or, maybe you find out that you aren't a good match. But, I think that when a man innitiates, woman ought to give them a chance.
2. DannieA said the following at 3:04 PM on Nov 5:
wow! considering I was born in 78, I practically grew up listening to Dr. Dobson on FoTF radio show.
I have to say, it won't be the same...I know it's not about one man, but I wonder how it will affect the audience.
3. Julie said the following at 3:30 PM on Nov 5:
Maybe it's kind of crass to think this way, but I think there's something to the idea of parity. If you as a man keep getting rejected, or you as a woman are not getting pursued by the men you have your eye on, it could be worth asking whether you have parity with that person. Maybe you do, and that person just doesn't think you're the right peron, or it's not the right timing. But sometimes there may be people we are overlooking who would gladly give us a chance.
4. dasiopa said the following at 5:54 PM on Nov 5:
Lisa remarked that over 90% of the questions Boundless receives are from men who are repeatedly rejected. Only one possible reason for the rejections was offered by Steve: The men are batting out of their league. That may be the most legitimate answer for the average guy, but I doubt those are the same guys filling the Boundless inbox.
The personality type with the least success in relationships, statistically, is the INTP. The other NT types don't fare much better. These are the guys who are probably experiencing rejection after rejection, and are inclined to write in about it.
In general, an NT will not pursue a woman just because she's a knockout. But once every year or two, he'll find a woman who seems like a decent match. If he's shot down, it can be hard because he knows how rare it is for him to just be at bat, much less hit one out of the park.
5. Kelly-1 said the following at 6:55 PM on Nov 5:
I've tried a few times in my life to read "The Screwtape Letters". It seems to be required reading for most Christians. But I just CAN'T get into it. It frustrates me and I don't comprehend.
Am I the only one?
(And an audio version would be even worse; I'm a reader and don't even listen to podcasts.... ;) )
6. composer girl said the following at 9:38 PM on Nov 5:
Oh wow. I just checked out the website for The Screwtape Letters featuring Andy Serkis and I am SO excited! In addition to always liking the FotF radio theatre, I've recently become interested in audiobooks. I learned pretty quickly that with audio books, the narrator should be top priority, even over the book. If you have a bad narrator reading a great book, it's not worth it. You might as well just read the book. Well, Andy Serkis is a GREAT vocal actor (and just a great actor in general). It was cool to see the video clips of the recording sessions. I am definitely buying this dramatization of The Screwtape Letters and adding it to my audio book library. :)
7. Courtney said the following at 10:09 PM on Nov 5:
My copy of the Screwtape letters arrived in the post yesterday so the timing couldn't have been more appropriate! Thank you :)
8. not saying on this post! said the following at 2:37 AM on Nov 6:
When I was younger and single, there was one guy in particular who made an attempt to pursue me, but I wasn't interested. He was very family oriented, a great student and already working towards his own business. He had wonderful, strong character. But he had bad hygiene.
Women might not be as visually oriented as men, but his self-presentation was an honest turn off for me. I hope this doesn't seem superficial or overly picky, because it wasn't an issue of "I don't like his style." I just didn't feel like he was clean!
Maybe this will help someone out there who keeps getting turned down...
9. Mike said the following at 6:54 AM on Nov 6:
Honestly, the segment on guys getting shot down was all well and good, but you missed the main point.
If guys are trying, and constantly getting shot down, and lots of Boundless readers / listeners are complaining about it...
Quit with all the female whining about men not taking initiative!
Because obviously, men ARE taking initiative, and they're getting blasted for their trouble.
P.S. Thanks for the props, Rebekah. :-)
10. Michael said the following at 8:11 AM on Nov 6:
Concerning your last segment, can't give what you don't have. Christ accepted me broken and lost and wounded and all. And if marriage is a picture of how Christ loves his church, broken and lost and wounded as it was, then if women can't accept that men, especially into their mid- to late-thirties, are likely to have something broken, lost, or wounded in their past, then that's a sad picture of how Christ loves His church, indeed. She's not rejecting you, men. She's rejecting Christ in a very fundamental way.
11. Michael said the following at 8:26 AM on Nov 6:
Besides... I like to think of marriage as a chord of three strands not easily broken. Me, with my mate, and Christ in between. Not that brokenness doesn't happen from time to time, because it does. Only that, we're *not easily* broken. Rejection is a good thing when it comes to this. It makes my decision later whom to betroth all the easier to make because I *don't* have someone else as a choice.
12. Jeremiah said the following at 9:13 AM on Nov 6:
dasiopa (#4), wow! I'm ENTJ and you described my situation almost perfectly. I don't ask a girl out unless I have done my homework, and actually really like her. That’s typically less than 1 or 2 per year. I get shot down about half the time. I personally don’t think I’m overreaching. Then again, what the heck do I know?
Lisa, not sure about that voice you did at about 27 min in… but it SOUNDED like condescension / sarcasm toward the guys that were writing in. I hope that’s not where your heart was. Nothing is less sexy on a woman in my mind than lack of empathy. You partially made up for it by your "that's hot" remark at the end. I loved that Steve was chuckling in the background and didn’t quite know how to respond. :)
Also, I’m not sure how to feel about the “out of their league” factor. I think that depends so much on the group. I have seen so many cases were women (or men) may be the most physically attractive in a given group at church and so they feel entitled to “reject” lesser suitors. However, if you put that same person in a bar setting or in a different City they may be a lot more average.
I’ve heard the quote, “the devil gets the best tunes”… however, it might also be said that the “devil gets most of the hotties.” Not that I haven’t met some very very attractive men and women that have a heart for Christ… it’s just seems like the physically beautiful tend to be enticed and swallowed up by the world far more frequently.
On one hand I agree that it would be fantastic if all Christians could see ‘heart beauty’ the same way that God does. However, I don’t think its realistic to overlook the science of attraction either. People tend to seek out other with a complimentary physical match.
The ones that baffle me are when the kind-of-unattractive but good Christian guy asks out the kind-of-unattractive but good Chritsian girl and she says no, because maybe she’s waiting for the other sweet, charming, and devilishly handsome dude to ask her out… Those are the ones that have been reading too much Twilight. ;)
13. Mike said the following at 9:53 AM on Nov 6:
Oh, and Steve...dude, the next time you want to comment to guys who are writing in about being rejected, you might not want to start out by saying that it's the guy's job to risk rejection. Because, if they weren't risking rejection, they wouldn't be writing in about being rejected.
Kinda like lecturing an athlete who got injured while exercising about the need to exercise to prevent injury...like, no "duh", Sherlock!
I think you guys seriously need a new script. If you want to offer encouragement, you need to do something besides lecture people to do something they're already doing with no success.
Sorry for the snark, but you really didn't appear to think that one through very thoroughly.
14. Bernie said the following at 10:04 AM on Nov 6:
Gosh, I couldn't help but feel like the last segment was kind of empty. I know I used to be where those writers were, and I don't know how many times I started looking into what monastaries were like out of hopelessness.
The pain and confusion out of being rejected comes when there's a lie that's believed about a double standard. If a guy only hears that women want them to try (like the Boundless Line article from last week titled "Consumer Relationships"), then the guy tries and gets shot down, it's easy for the guy to believe the lie that this will just happen every time.
The hardest part about this lie is when it consistently looks like truth (according to the scientific method), it doesn't look like a lie at all.
But that's where faith comes in!
So I really like how someone said that men have to have faith in God by risking rejection. It's definitely a huge faith thing, and it even boils down to whether or not a man truly believes he's smarter than God or not. If I think I'm smarter than God and a young woman shoots me down, then I think God made a mistake. If I think God is smarter than me, then there's something I tell him He knows what He's doing, I learn from that, I pick myself back up, and just keep walking with him until the next time He leads me to try.
So all that is to say that a ton of guys deal with this, and it's hard when the same young woman frustrated with men not taking risks is quick to reject a young man taking a risk. But it's not the young woman's fault, and it's not about blaming the entire female chromosone set. That's part of the lie, too. This lie about the double standard of risking rejection in pursuit of relationship is so easy to believe, it almost makes it look like mutual infatuation is a fairy tale.
But to close, it doesn't matter if ALL the girls don't like you... only one has to. So believe for her and pray for her, guys. She's probably praying that you won't give up on finding her.
~Bernie
15. BDB said the following at 10:21 AM on Nov 6:
dasiopa (#4) wrote:
>>In general, an NT will not pursue a woman just because she's a knockout. But once every year or two, he'll find a woman who seems like a decent match.<<
Yes, I suppose the "thinking" part gets in the way...particularly in a world where all the romance novels portray men as being swept away by their feelings if they're the "right one..." NT's see being swept away by emotions as a character flaw... :D
Kelly-1 (#5) wrote:
>>But I just CAN'T get into it. It frustrates me and I don't comprehend.<<
It's very subtle...but it's short. You can read it in one day. Might be one of those that you just force yourelf through and think about it later. About half-way through it gets more interesting.
16. Jeremiah said the following at 10:50 AM on Nov 6:
(#15), "NT's see being swept away by emotions as a character flaw... :D"
AMEN ;)
17. sarah elizabeth said the following at 11:13 AM on Nov 6:
ok, I may be a downer here, but I would encourage guys who frequently get rejected to really take alook at themselves. I would encourage to maybe ask some girlfriends of theirs (maybe even ones they have been turned down by)if they are doing something wrong or if there is some reason they get rejected. That may sound harsh...but there could be a reason.
For instance-the woman who felt the guy had bad hygiene-who knows who many girls have rejected him based on that (what girl really wants to date a guy that always smells or is dirty). Maybe if he asked and someone actually told him that, he could start taking care of himself better and have better luck.
Or, i think of another friend I have. He is nice, charming in his own way, funny, godly, able to take care of himself...yet he always talks about himself. I can guarantee that affects how women respond to him.
Or another friend I have who asks a lot of girls out and gets refected frequently (or doesnt get past 1 date). If he would ask around, he would find out that the way he asks girls out (not being very clear that hes asking for a date, not letting them say no easily) makes him come across as sort of manipulative. But for all practical purposes, hes a nice guy, godly, and has things going for him. ALso, he asks a lot of girls out and he comes across like he is just looking for a wife and that basically any female that is nice and cute could fill that spot. What girl wants to feel like she just the chick that fit his criteria who finally said yes to him?
sorry, I dont mean to be down on guys. Im sure often the case is women who have their ideal and arent willing to give it up and expand their horizons.
I would encourage guys though, if you are frequently getting rejected-get some female opinion. There may be some reason in you or in your delivery that might suck to hear, but could help you out.
18. Mike said the following at 11:22 AM on Nov 6:
Bernie -
Yeah, dude, what you say is great. "Keep trying! She's out there somewhere, and one failure - or twenty - isn't the end of it!"
That's a radically different script from, "You're the guy. It's your job to risk rejection, so suck it up."
I somehow like your script a lot better. :-)
19. John123 said the following at 11:39 AM on Nov 6:
Getting rejected is hard. I know from personal experience. I was the type to ask girls out only after I had really studied them. I was always friends with a girl before I asked her out. I prayed about her, asked my friends about her, and then finally approached her when I felt the timing was right. The first girl I ever asked said no thanks. So did the second. So did the third. Each one of these rejections was more than a year apart, and I was very discouraged about continuing to pursue a wife. Some days, I even doubted whether I would ever have a first date. I searched myself and couldn't find a good reason they weren't even willing to give me a chance, so all I could do was trust that God had a plan for me and that they were just not part of that plan. I still felt strongly that God was calling me to marriage.
I'm so glad that I didn't give up at that point. Eventually, I asked a girl, and she accepted. We had a date, then another, and then another. Months later, I proposed, and this fall, we got married.
I look back and am so thankful to God for his plan. I reached my 25th birthday having been rejected by multiple women and never even had a 1st date. Little did I know that I would get married in my 20s to the only girl I ever dated. What an amazing script God had for my life! I hope my story can encourage others who are still struggling with the difficulties of singleness. God has a plan for each of us. Our job is not to figure out that plan before God is ready to unveil it. Our job is to be faithful in the present with the circumstances around us and to enjoy watching God's plan unfold.
20. Mike said the following at 11:40 AM on Nov 6:
Sarah Elizabeth -
Well, I think there's something to what you say. Yes, it's probably true that frequent rejections may be an indication of a problem on the rejectee's side.
However, it's also worth noting that, given Boundless's constant hammering on intentionality - and constant whining about men not trying - you'd think they could offer something better than "suck it up and risk rejection" to guys who are doing exactly that.
And, frankly, when 90%+ percent of the mail they receive is from men who are getting shot down, I don't see the justification for the frequent articles griping about a lack of trying on the part of the male. That sounds like a serious case of denial to me. "We've got it in our heads that the problem is just that men aren't trying. That's our story, and we're sticking to it!"
Now, as far as the cases you cite: Yes, a guy who smells bad is probably going to strike out. With near 100% regularity. Women's noses are way more sensitive than men's. So, guys - hygiene. Get it.
On the other hand, coming across like he's looking for a wife is somehow a bad thing? Um...hello? Isn't that the purpose here? Don't we have to listen to constant whining on this site about guys who just string women along in "friend" relationships? Now, it's a bad thing to pursue marriage and be open about it? Your post does indicate an element of desperation in his approach, which is unattractive - but then again, how many of the women who write or call in have the same issue?
Seems to me we're having a bit of trouble putting any of the responsibility on the female side of the equation. "Hey, guys, we're all lonely and want a husband! Ask us out!" Ookay, we ask. And get shot down. "Well, you're doing it wrong." "You're not intentional enough." "You're too intentional." "You're too picky." "You're not picky enough." "You smell bad." (Okay, I'll give you that one!)
The real issue appears to be not that guys aren't trying. Seems to me the real issue is girls are being just a bit too selective. It's not that you're not being asked out; it's that the right guy isn't asking you out - the one you have your eye on, the one who makes your heart go pitapat. Or you just can't find a guy who meets all your criteria. (I'm reminded of the recent show about singleness and the 40-something woman in the audience who bemoaned a shortage of men her age who didn't already have kids.)
At what point do we say to the women: Girls - give a guy a chance. And quit waiting for the 100% flawless Prince Charming to come riding in on his white charger. Stop sacrificing the good in the quest for the perfect.
(P.S. - I will acknowledge that some of the ladies have, in fact, said exactly that above, and for that, I thank you.) :-)
21. e3017 said the following at 11:58 AM on Nov 6:
Boundless is a great websit that fills an important niche in the younger, unmarried adult demographic. I appreicate that the Bible is used to help discuss the issues faced by all of us.
However, the last podcast, in particular the letter segment was very unhelpful. First off, Lisa's whiny odd voice was very condescending towards men who have been hurt by past rejections. Steve's reasoning that these guys were "batting out of their league" or making reference to "dude you are a 6" does nothing to help.
We ask out women for a myriad of reasons, and looks is not always the be all and end all. If there are guys who are that superficial, than Steve's diagnosis would be fine, but that is not the problem for so many guys. Essentially when you use that reasononing, it might make some men feel as though they are inferior.
A biblical encouragement would have been more effective, and a reminder of God's sovereignty could have been in order. Instead, we hear, "guys need to risk rejection" which is true, but not helpful with regards to these inquiries.
Kudos to boundless with regards to their reaching out to young adults, and their Biblical stand on things. Kudos to Lisa and Steve with regards to their usual good job, with their answers. Pray and consider a little more how to deal with this subject. God bless!
22. Scott said the following at 12:43 PM on Nov 6:
I echo the sentiments by some of the guys on the answer. A few things stuck out:
1. Really? 98.75% (or a significantly large percentage, I know what hyperbole is) are guys asking about them constantly initiating but getting rejected?
You guys should mention that when you write articles about how guys don't seem to be asking women out, and women are sad that "no men are trying".
Sorry, that bugged me and it put me already at a sort of hostile (not angry, but more of a "I am less receptive to your point" sort of hostile).
2. I do like how you encourage people to take risks, and your quote did really encourage people to keep doing it. I would add that there is a value in getting rejected, in that you are able to emphasize with those who have been rejected, and as a friend told me "you get a taste of what Jesus felt when he was rejected" (he stressed not to be an exact paralell, but in a lot of sense he is right; you care about someone quite a bit but they do not return the favor). I feel what Steve said is correct- I've looked back and really pointed at rejections as catalysts for improvements.
3. I'm dissapointed that you never answered the question. The commenters have done a great job doling some advice, and here's mine:
First, one needs to sit down with a friend and do the "duh" test:
1. Is this person doing proper hygiene?
2. Is this person interacting with women in an appropriate manner?
3. Does this person have the foundation to be a good husband and father? (Steve hit on this one).
However, these things are necessary but not sufficient.
Second, the person should sit down with a mentor (older guy who knows him) and look at the type of women he's asking out, and see if they are generally compatable with who he is (and you can get into a "league" discussion if that winds up to be the issue.)
Third, pray and come to terms with the fact that you may never get a successful date in your lifetime, and that is for God's glory. You may just get the lot in life where girls will just...not like you, for the reason of that attraction is practically magic when it comes down to it- it is like the wind, you can never fully make sense of it.
Personally, when I came to terms with that, my life became a lot happier. I personally now have the freedom to strive after it, but realize that God is working for my good in the midst of every rejection. I'm part of "team loser who has e-mailed boundless", with very few dates to my name, but this train of thought, which I believe is Biblically sound, really freed me up in that I no longer make the implicit assumption (I've never actually said this, but I've thought this) that "if I don't get married at some point my faith will falter and die".
Pain now...will be glory later when we have received our due reward in Christ.
Anyway, it really bugs me is what I hear and read in the popular Christian circles.
I tend to hear this to girls: "You're great as is, you just haven't found the guy who will love you for who you are." I agree on this.
I tend to hear this to guys: "Try harder! You're doing it wrong! Stop asking too many girls out! You're not asking enough girls out!" Basically, whatever the guy is doing, he's doing it wrong and needs to fix it.
How about this: Each piece of advice is also applicable to the other. Guys, if you're striving but failing, and you pass the duh test, then take heart. You haven't found the girl who will love you and respect you for who you are, or you will find that in your lifelong singleness that you connected with God so strongly that it was truly the best option.
Girls, the right guy may not have found you yet. Or maybe he has, but you didn't give him a shot because he was awkward when he asked you out, or he's maybe not that good looking, or maybe he's kind of a nerdy guy. Don't forget that you make mistakes too (though guys would never say that because it's rude and you all would not talk to us =( )
...Take hope. It's painful, but we will all dance in heaven one day!
23. Elaine said the following at 1:07 PM on Nov 6:
I have alway enjoyed living to Dr. James Dobson. It was his programme on a local radio station that caused me to look up for Focus on the Family on the Internet and found Boundless by the way. I have been visiting your sites for over nine years.
24. Bernie said the following at 1:18 PM on Nov 6:
#17, I don't think that just taking in female opinions is the best thing to do for a guy. That can get dangerous if something's not practical, but actually more manipulative. There's a difference between practicing better hygene, and thinking he has to be cooler than Jonathan Taylor Thomas to attract a young woman.
Maybe he's doing something "wrong", but maybe the only thing he's doing wrong is that he's not fitting this young woman's ideal of the dream man she's idealized all her life, so she didn't think about his for longer than 3 seconds. We're a picky people, and we can get fixated on one tiny detail about a person, and make our entire argument based on that one difference. So if a man starts going to women for help on this type of issue, it's very easy for the women to manipulate him into becoming the ideal man that all the girls like. That sounds like a shallow goal.
Why not just train in becoming a better man? Instead of working with positives and strengths, we're covering up weaknesses and blemishes. That sounds more productive to me, and that will attract the right kind of girl. She might even forgive silly little unattractive things because of his admirable heart and character.
25. Rebekah in SoCal said the following at 1:27 PM on Nov 6:
Clarification: when I say "walking wounded", I'm talking about some of my friends who have significant emotional walls around them, or are very bitter, or can never get their life moving in a positive direction, but are unwelcome to guidence, help, or advice.
I do know women like this too.
I see this as a separate issue from RECOVERING from past wounds/sin.
26. Michael said the following at 1:47 PM on Nov 6:
Maybe, just maybe, a woman's heart-felt desire is for the man she wants her future spouse to BECOME. And, maybe, just maybe, that IS God's will for him, provided she sticks with him through that trial. Maybe, just maybe, that's NOT where he's at RIGHT NOW, but will be, provided God's will is honored throughout that process. Speaks to me of needing to find and maintain some perspective throughout the whole process of dating (if you subscribe to dating), courtship and marriage. Which is a good thing, in any walk of life, to keep things circumspect, in right relationship, balance, and perspective.
27. sarah elizabeth said the following at 2:17 PM on Nov 6:
Mike-
thanks for the response.
I agree with you in wishing Boundless had given a little more concrete helful tips instead of simply suck it up. That was one thing that actually prompted me to respond-to give one practical thing a guy could do to possibly help improve his rejection/acceptance rates.
And I think youre right that part of the fault lies with girls. I think often times, both sides dont do things correctly and therefore mess it up for themselves. Unfortunaly too, the people writing in to boundless are int he midst of communities of people that dont have boundless ideals of dating in their back pocter-wwhich Im sure we can see doesnt help things along. Any time people are operating to different rules it just makes things confusing.
And girls often do have very select criteria-often too select. I will admit I go back and forth on this, cause on one hand, sometimes, be it criteria or just inexplicable reasons, a girl just isnt into a guy. And frankly, that needs to be ok [just like guys have every right to not be into a girl who is into them]. However, I think too many girls do in fact simply right guys off without giving them a chance.
Im a prime example of this-I found myself, about a year ago, in a community wiht great guys, who for various reasons I had written off my ~possibly dating list~ wrong? yes. I looked around and realized at some point though that I was surrounded with a some great, godly guys and that I needed a more open mind. I knew I didnt have feelings for any of them then, but I told God I was open to really considering them and letting interest grow if it came. NOw, a year later, Ive been in a relationship for 3 months with one of those guys-and he is absolutely amazing and I like him a lot. However, I can say quite confidantly, that if he had approached me before I was ready, he would not have been well received.
anyways, didnt mean to quite go on that tangent-sorry.
as for the example of the guy I gave-
I sort of expected I might get that response since I didnt think I had really explained that situation well.
I guess i should say first that while I do think intentionally towards marriage is good, I dont always entirely agree with the boundless approach in everything. So I dont neatly fit the typical boundless girl on here talking.
However, with this guy, its less about the fact that he is pursuing a wife, but how he goes about it. To start with, he talks many times in groups about wanting a wife and longing for that intimacy. It is quite clear through time spent around him that that is important to him. 1 problem-it comes across like he isnt fulfilled or complete without one. It does come across as somewhat desperate. He also comes across with high expectations of a wife fulfilling lonliness in his life. Getting that sense from a guy, that they are hoping you will fill them is quite scary and a lot of pressure.
Also, this guy is not actually open about. He pursues girls with the intent of dating them or seeing if anything is there, however, he does it in the name of friendship. he pulls the lets get coffee/dinner/hang out...but Im not acutally going to call it a date and tell you what I am doing. The way in which he words these invitations make a girl feel like she cant say no since its as *friends* and not a *date*, they make a girl feel like she has to have her free time planned out so in order to have a reason to say no. As Im sure you can tell, I have been on the receiving end of these invitations (and I am friends with several other girls who have been on the recieving end and they had very similar feelings). [hes also done this same method with at least 5 girls that I know of in the last 6 omnths]. In his pursuit of me, I often felt backed into a corner with no way out. So forget even the wife aspect-that feeling alone is enough to make a girl want to stay away.
Looking for a wife is great-opening your eyes up to someone you wouldnt have considered otherwise, great. When a girl feels like she in only being pursued because shes nice, godly, and cute and it seems like she could be replaced by anyone else who fits that-it doesnt feel so great. Women do like to feel they are special. THey like to think that a guy got to know them and saw something special in them that made them want to pursue them. if a girl thinks she can be replaced at the drop of a hat, by all means, she will probably step back and say-please replace me.
I fear that after that, I still havent really explained the issues surrounding this one guy and his rejections.It honestly would take too much time. And simply wouldnt really be able to happen in a forum like this. Please take my word on it though-there are things in his approach that sincerely hinder his approach with girls-and I have multiple people who would agree.
I guess I would say there are two things to consider for guys-1)that the women in there life could be the problem, they maybe too closeminded and stuck on a certain type of guy or certain criteria and 2)consider that there could be a problem in how you are approaching women.
28. sarah elizabeth said the following at 2:20 PM on Nov 6:
bernie-you do have a point of not just looking for female opinions, I think going to trusted mentors and male friends is also good. The reason I mentioned girls is because if a guy had women in his life who were willing to be honest (and not maniupulate), they might be able to share things about how he comes across that a fellow guy wouldnt pick up on (especially if it is someone he has previously rejected)
29. Bernie said the following at 2:32 PM on Nov 6:
That's dangerous terrirory, too, Mike. #26
How many times have we heard "Maybe he'll change", and he never does? Sure, there's wishful thinking in most situations, but playing along in hopes for change isn't a good thing, either. Especially in regards to marriage, which I believe is the 2nd most important decision anyone will ever make. (The 1st is just what someone is going to decide about Jesus Christ and the cross). But yeah, I wouldn't gamble with hoping a girl changes later, and girls shouldn't gamble that a guy will change something like a negative behavior, either.
This whole topic is sticky and can get into other tangents, but I think the main thing is this: How do you encourage a man that's frustrated that his pursuits aren't bearing desired results?
Just because 1 girl said no (or 20...), that doesn't mean that he's absolutely undesirable. Something could've been wrong with all 20 of those women! But in the end, it only takes 1 to be Mrs. Right, and she's praying that he won't quit looking for her.
30. not saying on this post! said the following at 2:42 PM on Nov 6:
It seems like the girls will get some pretty straight forward advice about their problems if they ask. I've heard Candice and some of the other ladies straight up tell some of the women:
1. That they maybe could stand to take care of themselves better. Maybe its weight, or maybe is growing longer hair. There's usually a pairing with having a healthy attitude towards food and appearance.
2. Don't be so goal oriented that we miss opportunities.
3. Don't be harsh in how we present opinions.
4. Be more optimistic and positive about the men we are friends with.
5. On a recent podcast, someone was even called out for having a pride issue. The girl who was dating guy that didn't care as much about budgeting and working out as she did. Remember that one?
6. Buying a house might not be such a good idea...
7. Stay out of buddy relationships!
I think the list could really keep going and going.
Maybe the guys are feeling like they aren't getting as much specific stuff. That's why I mentioned the hygiene issue (#8).
I think the article,No Second Dates offers a few good specifics that could apply to the guy asking the question.
John Thomas says:
As a woman, the reason I like this is because it was always a hard thing to know how to properly relate to a guy who'd ask me out before I felt like I knew him well enough. I always struggled with the fact that if I said say "Yes" to a date, then I'd have to spend one-on-one time with a guy I hardly knew. That's a lot of pressure. But if I said "No," then I felt like I wasn't giving him a chance, although I really wanted to be in a position to "give him a chance" as a friend first. Maybe I wanted to evaluate him from afar for just a little while before I had to give a "Yes" or "No."
:)
31. BDB said the following at 3:58 PM on Nov 6:
To extend on Rebekah (#25)'s point:
I wonder if the gentleman is approaching women who are very social or women who he's 100% sure are unattached.
Women who you observe being very social often say yes much more easily. They simply like to talk to and meet new people. I've had the chance to share a meal with a number of people who I just met - literally minutes before - because something popped out in conversation - in line before ordering even. Some people are simply more approachble.
(Of course, sometimes they also accept - or suggest - talking over lunch or coffee, and it's a little awkward when they start talking about their boyfriend, but I digress...)
Now, if you're only approaching women who you are 100% are unattached...sometimes that's because they don't want to be approached. If they've had some sort of bad experience, such as a long-term relationship that ended or a broken engagement, they my be hiding in their little fortress. They're not letting ANYONE get near them for a while. Of course, from outside, it looks like they are available. Well, it only looks that way - they may be declining to respond to everyone's invitations and so are not attached to any group. If you only approach women like that, well, chances are good they'll always say no until they get to know you reasonably well in another setting.
Soledad O'Brien had an interesting article in Guideposts magazine where she described how her parents met. It seems that they both went to Johns Hopkins, and they both went to Mass every morning. Every day he asked if she wanted a ride back to campus, and every day she said no. One day she finally said yes and they were married a year later.
Now, the article doesn't say, but I'm guessing that in the intervening time (not sure but it sounds like weeks or months), she probably had time to think about it. She would know that he a) was serious enough about his faith to show up every day - like her, b) was serious about being a student, and c) must really mean it because he hadn't given up.
Anyone who is thinking through the importance of being equally yoked in their faith can see how that thought process can evolve over time. We all meet people who are not sincere in their faith, or it's very shallow. But after a while you realize that some people keep showing up. And that may be what convinces people to take a closer look.
32. Novagirl in DC said the following at 4:04 PM on Nov 6:
Yes, guys get shot down way too much for all sorts of petty reasons, and I think it is time women step up and say yes more often than they say no.
I am not trying to tell women what to do, but I have a policy to go on at least a first date with any single Christian man who asks me out who is reasonably within my age range (plus or minus 10-15 years or so). And usually I will give it at least three dates before I decide to proceed further.
Why? Because it's one (or three) dates, it's not my life. Because even if I have a pre-conceived idea that he is not right for me, I should have an open mind and give him a chance to show me who he is. Because every date is an opportunity to meet a mate, or make a good guy friend. Because even if I am not initially attracted to him, I know from experience that I often become attracted to men over time as I get to know them. Because even if he isn't right for me, he might be right for one of my girl friends, and I might be able to assist in making that match. Because the right guy might come along even when I am not looking to get married, or when I am "busy" with other pursuits (though I am looking to marry). Because all guys need thee encouragement of "yes" from a woman. Because he's a fellow brother in Christ -- not talking about pity here -- I just think I should respect and honor the risk he has taken. Because I've heard lots of stories about people who came together even when there were no initial sparks. Because God's best for me might be someone who isn't my "type" and I might be surprised that he becomes my type.
So how about it girls? How about we say yes and keep an open mind!
33. Michael said the following at 4:33 PM on Nov 6:
#29 Bernie, Amen brother, of course it's dangerous territory: it's risky business laying down your life for a spouse. I've personally witness one account just that way. She'd divorced him; I don't know the details, wasn't my business, but I did propose that was the issue. She stated, "He never changed." I responded, "What if he never changes? You still married him." That's God's will, not ours, whether a person should change. All I'm saying is, if you never take the risk and never go, how will you ever know? Seems like a silly reason to hang it up on someone simply because they have "some stuff" to work on. We ALL have some stuff to work on, married or unmarried. We're all works in progress in God's eyes. But you know what? God is faithful to finish that good work He started in you and me if we'll be honest and true to Him. This isn't a foregone conclusion; it's covenant in nature.
34. david beldon said the following at 5:38 PM on Nov 6:
I dont know if i totally agree with the idea of trying to go out of your league. Ive had about equal sucess with really physically attractive girls and one that i thought were ok but I wanted to take a chance with because they were godly. I think the best advice is for them to keep trying and being persistent. Try to find other men who are having success and know you ask them to be brutal with you. Do you have bad hygiene? Are you awkward? Are you nervous? There could be host of things wrong our you could have a string of bad luck. The guys I know who have success get shot down a lot. My roomate married someone really nice and really pretty and he got shot down all the time. Remember guys that a woman is not God and her opinion of you does not define you. Remember that you are loved and accepted by Christ. Be confident because of who you are in Him.
35. D.Williams said the following at 6:36 PM on Nov 6:
@Jeremiah; BDB; Dasiopa:
I've been skimming through the comments and saw the Myers Briggs' discussion. I actually had to check and make sure I was on the Boundless blog. You know who probably gets more flack than an NT male? An NT female. I was an INTP and now test as an INTJ. Those personality traits are stereotypically masculine and if I am correct INTJ is the least common personality type among women. It also seems to be a turn off to most guys.
There has to be one a guy in the world who would enjoy my NT'ness.
36. Mike said the following at 6:18 AM on Nov 7:
not saying on this post! (#30) wrote:
Maybe the guys are feeling like they aren't getting as much specific stuff.
Excellent point! Allow me to fill that gap:
1) The hygiene issue has been touched on. Guys, face it: Girls do not do dirty. Or smelly. So bathe, brush teeth, clean fingernails. Shave. And if you have a beard or other facial hair, keep it trimmed neatly. Seriously.
2) On the same line, it's probably a good idea to clean your car before you pick her up for the date. Even better, make it a habit to keep your car - and your house / apartment - reasonably clean as a routine. "Joe's Apartment" isn't cute to a girl; it's gross.
3) Lay off the belching / breaking wind in the presence of a lady. They don't think it's cute, funny, or something to rate. They think it's gross. (In fact, it's been mentioned here before.)
4) You'll probably want to ditch the backward cap and baggy pants. If you're looking to get married, you want to present yourself as someone who can get a real job, able to support a family. Skateboard dudes may fly on MTV, but not in the boardroom. (There may be exceptions, but your chances are probably better with a more mainstream look.)
5) Mind your manners. Open doors, pull out chairs, pay for the date. Ditch feminism. It's stupid.
6) Let her talk. Don't monopolize the conversation. If you have trouble with that concept, pick up a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People. You're interested in her, right? How you gonna find out about her if you never shut your yap?
Now, all that said, it's REALLY important to recognize something: This is the stuff you can control. But you know what you can't control?
You can't control how she will react.
See, we men are wired for a performance-based mentality. And we're wired for success. When something goes wrong in an effort, we automatically assume we've failed in some way. But that doesn't take into account the fact that we don't control all the circumstances surrounding every effort. Sometimes, failures simply happen because of circumstances beyond our control. This is especially true in the area of personal relationships - because we don't control anyone's behavior except our own. (And, Boundless folks, you're not helping by pretending that we men somehow control the woman's reaction!)
Yes, yes, I know...for some reason, there's this theological thing going - "If he was treating her right, she'd just melt and everything would be OK. After all, the men are the initiators." Yes, men are the initiators - but women are the responders. Women still have a lot of power in the relational arena, because they choose how they will react to a man's overtures.
Sometimes, a guy can do all the "right" things, and it still doesn't work. Maybe she's just having some issues and isn't ready to date herself. Maybe he subconsciously reminds her of someone who hurt her in the past, and that gives her the heebie-jeebies. Maybe she just doesn't find him attractive. Who knows? But it's VERY possible that a guy can strike out despite doing all the "right" things.
To assume that a relational failure is ALWAYS a man's fault is to assume a man has a power he simply doesn't have: control over a woman's behavior. Women aren't automatons who will predictably respond properly when they receive the correct input. They are independent, free-willed human beings who can choose to respond as they see fit. (Would we really want it any other way?)
So guys, take heart. Sometimes, failures just happen, and it's not necessarily because you've done anything wrong. Sure, do a little self-exam to make sure you didn't blow some important element - but don't overdo it. (I know I've certainly gone WAY overboard from time to time!) Just give the mirror a look for a few minutes, dust yourself off, congratulate yourself for taking the risk, pull out the breath mints, and try again!
:-)
37. Mike said the following at 6:20 AM on Nov 7:
Novagirl in DC:
God bless you, darling. You are the sort of encouragement men need!
38. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:45 AM on Nov 7:
Agree with many of the comments here regarding the last segment. It did a great idea identifying the problem, but in my opinion, did little in the "encouragement" and especially the "practical wisdom" department.
The entire "real men risk and take rejection" line, albeit true, gets really old...fast. Guys already know this. The frustration comes because a lot of guys are supposedly doing what all the "experts" are telling them to or what women supposedly say they want but are coming up short, not even able to get that first date.
For example, I had to laugh when we were told guys should automatically go for "the most godly woman in the room". Now, I'm not saying that spiritual maturity isn't important, but that advice is just plain feckless. Would you seriously advise the reverse--that women should accept initations from the most godly man in the room, despite the fact he may be 20 years her senior, wear tacky clothes, whom which she has no attraction to him whatsoever? Then why put that unrealistic and unnecessary standard on guys?
I appreciate the comments from some ladies here who do seem to understand the frustration and do admit that the ladies can be just as discriminating as guys can be. That is a breath of fresh air. And although I'm not saying all ladies have to do the "minimum 1-3 date" rule like Novagirl does, I applaud her for at least giving decent guys a chance.
Scott (#22) points out a fabulous truth and is actually encouraging and wise even though it may not seem that way. That is "coming to terms" with your singleness. Rather than simply deny or trivialize the pain, learn to "embrace" it. Not in a masochistic sort of way (e.g. intentionally asking out girls who you know will reject you), but I think he's saying that pain in a way can push us closer to God. C.S. Lewis wrote that God whispers to us in our comfort, but shouts to us in our pain. And in a strange sort of way, when we go to God with our pain, we can find peace, comfort, and renewed purpose in life. I think Steve tried to point this out at the beginning using the quote from Roosevelt, but it sort of got lost with the "take it like a man" message. It isn't easy to be sure, and there are times when we can be tempted to walk away from Him or disobey (I've on more than one occassion thought to myself, "Screw this godly living with my love life. I'm going to behave like the World."), but I do believe it is for a reason, a good reason, God's reason.
39. skp said the following at 4:06 PM on Nov 7:
I found someone who enjoys my INT ness. I am an INTJ and my husband is an INTP. We've been married for over 20 years.
40. BDB said the following at 5:21 PM on Nov 7:
Regarding the other sections of the podcast, I think that Dr. Dobson has handled the transition appropriately. He deserves to retire. And there are lots of organizations that don't survive their founder's retirement. The ones that do focus on principles instead of the founder's personality.
And the discussion on the Screwtape radio drama was very interesting. I hadn't thought about the challenges associated with converting one-way letters into 2-way dialog.
41. BDB said the following at 8:44 AM on Nov 8:
First, I note that the Inbox once again suggested that men might be being rejected because their job is not prestigious enough, and that they should wait until they have their act together. Please keep in mind that it is statements like this that convince men they should delay pursing marriage until they are financially "set." Perhaps women can keep in mind that half of men have jobs that are "below average."
On a tactical level, for those who are always getting turned down, there is an alternative you can try: instead of extending invitations first, try asking people if they are seeing someone. Non-Christians seem to do this constantly, and immediately upon meeting new people. But I almost never see it in a church setting. This may help you distinguish between friendly women with boyfriends they never mention and friendly women who are open to being approached (and unfriendly women who shrink away at the thought.)
On a strategic level, you can take all of your frustrations to the foot of the cross for an honest look. If you simply ask God, "Nothing is working, what do I need to change?" He may answer you. If he does so by bringing a mentor into your life, take what they say seriously.
42. BDB said the following at 8:51 AM on Nov 8:
D. Williams (#35) - as much fun as I think personality tests can be, I once ran across a rather convicting devotional by Elisabeth Elliot that suggested Fruit of the Spirit should not be expected to vary by personality type.
43. Name Changed to Protect the Innocent said the following at 9:05 AM on Nov 9:
I brought up Boundless last week at my men’s group. Turns out several of the guys are already readers. Here are the stats: Out of 6 guys, 4 have asked out women from our singles group in the last few months, 2 have not. 1 guy is now dating the girl he asked out, 1 guy is not too sure what their status is. 2 were rejected. Granted, there are more women in my singles class than men. However, from my very limited sample, I don’t see much evidence that the men are not pursuing.
What I do see that that both Christian men and Christian women are having trouble meeting the other gender’s expectations. People are frustrated that the singles that they would like to date are not the ones that are interested in them. Dating for Christians is so much harder because we have been trained to be intentional and have an eye for marriage. Therefore, every offer for coffee takes on added pressure because the Christian man/woman is running all these preliminary filters: Can I see myself marrying this person? Am on leading him/her on? Does this person possess all the Christian maturity that I think that I need (women mostly)? Does this person live up to my ideal physical type (men mostly)?
After a while, it’s no longer about the coffee and the fellowship; it’s about deciding before you even take that first step whether or not this relationship is even worth running its full course. Even the smallest obstacles look daunting from this perspective.
Those are my thoughts for a Monday morning. :)
44. D.Williams said the following at 10:51 AM on Nov 9:
#42, BDB: I totally agree. I wrote that in a light-hearted matter. I look at the Myers-Briggs forums from time to time (It's fun/sad, however you view it, to read posts by people who have a lot of similar personality traits as I do. Of course there are differences because I believe and adhere to the biblical roles between male and female, the fruits of the Spirit, and so on). When I saw this, I was like, what site am I on again? The test was more for a job matching thing more than anything else. What's really funny is I went from being an INTP when I was Pentecostal to being an INTJ the more I learned about Reformation theology--don't ask; I have no idea.
---------------
Okay, back on topic. I don't have much of a problem with guys approaching me when I'm not in church but being approached by a Christian guy, someone who I am equally yoked with, is another story. I think (think; I'm not sure) they have a difficult time reading me but other than going to church wearing a t-shirt that says "I'm single and I would at least give you a chance if you're older than 21 and younger than an AARP member," I'm not quite sure on how to appear more open. I mean I am cordial but I don't wear my emotions on my sleeve.
The only advice I can give to guys who are constantly being rejected by girls is if you're driving down the street and you're hanging your head out of your car window screaming at a girl to give you her number, you will more than likely get rejected. (Before anyone takes me too seriously I am being facetious but this has happened to me so many times I've lost count and I didn't give any of them my number).
Actually, I probably can't help the guys out too much with this. Iron your clothes, be upfront, and ask nicely. If the girl you like doesn't seem to hang around a lot of people all the time it probably won't do much good being indirect with her and looking for some kind of sign to see if she's interested. You would do better to be direct and ask the girl out. This is such a complex topic. There is also the thing where if I saw you asking 10 girls out and then you ask me out, I would say no because it's like the only reason you asked me out was because those 10 girls turned you down and I'm towards the bottom of your list. I've also heard stories of girls who kept rejecting a guy, then finally went out with him, and now they're happily married years later. I am sure this wasn't much of a help and I've typed much more than I've intended to.
Guys, just don't give up. There are plenty of us around who want a nice guy. I mean, really, we do exist, so don't give up.
45. Andrea-Elena said the following at 11:03 AM on Nov 9:
BDB:
Excellent! Most excellent!
Your comments about a man's job remind me of two things: (1) Kevin and Suzanne (Hadley) Gosselin's story and (2) the line in Stardust about the main character's not being a shop boy but a boy who works in a shop ---> a person's potential isn't always evident via his job. Sometimes a job is just a way to pay the bills while one is working toward a larger goal. And most jobs, when done well and to the glory of the Lord, have some amount of nobility about them.
And thank you for bringing up the point about personality tests. After my entire dept. took the one with the four animals, one of our division's leaders gave a presentation in which he reminded us that no personality type, no matter what system is used to try to describe the types, is exempt from the truth that we Christians are to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. (Also, I don't find that personality typing is always accurate or comprehensive in describing who a person is and why.)
46. BDB said the following at 12:21 PM on Nov 9:
D. Williams (#44) wrote:
>>What's really funny is I went from being an INTP when I was Pentecostal to being an INTJ the more I learned about Reformation theology--don't ask; I have no idea.<<
Wait - are you saying that the Pentacostal ability to Perceive the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the penchant for Reformed people to be Judgemental actually shows up on Myers-Briggs? That is fascinating...we can call it the stereotype indicator... :D
47. BDB said the following at 12:26 PM on Nov 9:
Andrea-Elena (#45) wrote:
>>(2) the line in Stardust about the main character's not being a shop boy but a boy who works in a shop ---><<
Ha ha! Stardust was SUCH a funny movie!
Star: You said think of home!
Boy: I meant MY home!
Star: Well, you didn't say that!
Boy: Now we're stuck half-way between my home and your home!
48. D.Williams said the following at 1:34 PM on Nov 9:
BDB (#46), I also went from being a Democrat to conservative (as opposed to specifically being Republican; I tend to not trust any political party), so we can say the same about that too. Like I said, don't ask;)
I've also been given a lot of similar tests by staffing agencies to help me find a job. The tests haven't helped either. I tend to agree with the results but it's things I already know, like I probably wouldn't make a great salesperson. No kidding. I didn't need a test to tell me that.
49. Novagirl in DC said the following at 4:45 PM on Nov 9:
Mike #37,
Thanks for the compliment! Glad I can be an encouragement. : )
50. BDB said the following at 5:11 PM on Nov 9:
Hmmm...there's a couple more pieces to this that haven't been mentioned yet, so I wanted to get them on the table.
We Americans live in a culture where women are taught to take initiative when they are interested in someone. Some Christian women are taught that men should be the ones taking initiative. But Elisabeth Elliot is the only one who I've seen write about the confusion that occurs when women initiate.
So, the possibility does exist that a lot of the women being approached also aren't familiar with the theory of male initiation. Therefore, they think it's inappropriate when asked - if they were interested, they would have invited the GUY to something.
The other part relates to social-life structure. There's some tension in my church's young adults group between the (over-21) crowd of people who like to party with alcohol, and those who do not find any life in that kind of activity. The latter group seems to be the more sincere Christians from what I can see. But I can definitely see a problem if the sincere Christians are perceived as too boring, and therefore people in the other faction reject them because they want their dating life to continue in the same "fun" way it has in the past.
Though I also wonder if women aren't pre-clearing all the men around them for marriage potential, so that they've already decided in advance whose invitations they'll accept and who they'll reject.
This would be an interesting place to use the Delphi Process. All the women could stack-rank the men in youth group and list the three reasons why they'd accept their invitation or the three reasons why they would not.
It could be compiled by the pastoral staff, and each man could be issued a binder. Without mentioning names, they would be told the number of women who WOULD accept their invitation and the reasons why, and the number of women who WOULDN'T accept, and the reasons why.
That would be "actionable intelligence."
51. Julie said the following at 6:01 PM on Nov 9:
I think women do "pre-clear" to some extent. The hard thing about being a woman is being in waiting mode and hoping that a man you're interested in will approach you. Men have the burden of taking the risk, but at least they can clearly go after the women who interest them. This is why one strategy women should use is to give a chance to men who initiate, just to see if there is more connection/attraction than they might have realized initially. I would also think that if you're not on a woman's "list"--she might be more likely to become interested in you with a clear invitation rather than hanging around hoping to gauge her interest. Women are drawn to confidence and leadership.
52. Gina said the following at 9:36 PM on Nov 9:
#36 -- some very good points there.
And guys, a word of advice: Sometimes a guy feels rejection where there isn't any. Honestly. I have worked VERY hard in relationships to keep guys from feeling rejected, and yet sometimes they feel that way in spite of my best efforts! More than once, I have been dropped like a rock by a guy because I simply asked if we could slow things down a little. I wasn't breaking things off -- I did my best to make it clear that I just needed them to move a bit more slowly so I could feel comfortable -- and yet these guys would take it as rejection and never call me again. I'm dead serious.
So when you're feeling rejection, please stop and ask yourself if you're feeling it because you have actually been rejected, or because you read something into a conversation that was not there at all. A lot of us girls would really, really appreciate it.
53. BDB said the following at 10:24 PM on Nov 9:
Novagirl, I also agree with your policy.
Your +/- 10-15 years is quite generous, too!
I'm thinking of a time when I was on the church shuttle returning from an event. The way it worked out with unassigned seating was that a woman 14 years younger than me ended up sitting down next to me for the 2-hour ride home.
And you know what? We had a great conversation and found we had enough in common to become friends; which is handy when serving in the same ministry as someone. Turns out she was a college graduate older than she looks. But not someone I would have approached normally because of the perceived age difference.
And you know what? Going from having never spoken with someone to talking with them for 2-3 hours can very, very likely result in a very different perception than you had originally.
54. Julie said the following at 11:34 AM on Nov 10:
When I was younger, I used to go on dates with whoever asked me. But then I was told by some guy friends that if I'm pretty sure I'm not interested, better to say no right off the bat. They said it's less hurtful.
I know it's hard to feel rejected, guys. But if you think about it, the girl who says no to you probably feels no different about you than you feel about those girls you choose not to pursue. So you reject (or pre-clear) too. One is more direct and the other more indirect, but at least you can get your answer quickly and clearly. And it can feel no less like a punch in the gut to a girl who feels like a man may be "the one" and then he never pursues.
55. elena said the following at 12:37 PM on Nov 10:
The following is in response to the discussion about dating or marrying someone in faith that they will grow in Christ despite their current struggles (#26,29,& 33).
We shouldn't expect perfection in a potential spouse or put people in a box and say they never can change; HOWEVER, I think it is unwise to consider marrying someone unless you are willing to live with them just the way they are right now for the rest of your life.On a more general note--it's been enlightening to read everyone's comments.I really appreciate the helpful nature of the discussion. And for my part, you guys are convincing me to give Christian guys a chance, if they ask.
On the other hand, I think that too much agonizing over whose fault it is that so many Christian men get rejected is counter productive--and frustrating, since none of us can make the others change. Let's try to do what is right ourselves, and trust that something good will come of it.
56. Gina said the following at 1:22 PM on Nov 10:
One other thing I noticed and wanted to mention: There's an interesting pattern here. Some of the guys are saying they search very, very carefully before deciding which girl they want to ask out -- and yet there seems to be a feeling that a girl should out with any reasonably upstanding guy who asks her. Are girls supposed to be less discerning than guys? Are the guys supposed to do their research and be selective, but not the girls? And if so, why?
57. dasiopa said the following at 3:10 PM on Nov 10:
Gina (#56),
Some of the guys are saying they search very, very carefully before deciding which girl they want to ask out -- and yet there seems to be a feeling that a girl should out with any reasonably upstanding guy who asks her.
Great observation; that doesn't sound fair. My post #4 was about some personalities being more "discerning" than others, not men vs. women. But let's go there.
The men aren't extending many invitations, so they must be too picky. The men are encouraged to be more open to pursuing women they aren't especially attracted to. The men comply, and in comes the inevitable complaint:
"If he thinks I'm special, why did he ask my roommate out too?"
Either (A) men shouldn't be so picky and women should stop complaining about the shotgun approach, or (B) men should be picky and women should stop complaining that we aren't asking.
58. Novagirl in DC said the following at 4:18 PM on Nov 10:
BDB, I agree. I often find it is really hard to tell how old folks are anyway, so I've found it easier to just be open about age and not worry about it at the beginning.
59. Novagirl in DC said the following at 4:26 PM on Nov 10:
Gina,
In my mind, the question is not whether women should be discerning (we should) it is about WHEN we should be discerning. If you overthink things too early and reject him (i.e., before he asks you out, or even when he asks you out) then you may have missed a good opportunity.
I think the time to be discerning is while you are getting to know him one-on-one, in a dating setting. For myself, I have a policy to give a guy at least 1-3 dates before making any judgments. While I am on those dates with him, I will be discerning who he is. And I will continue that "research" as you say, as I get to know him, his friends, etc.
60. Jeremiah said the following at 4:30 PM on Nov 10:
LOL. I guess the ego-driven male in me says that if I only ask out one girl a year than I've clearly done enough obsessing, personality analysis, and scientific assessment of our "chances" for the both of us. Heck, I might even have a spreadsheet... ;) Haha.
I know it doesn't work that way but sometimes I wish it did.
61. Jeremiah said the following at 4:31 PM on Nov 10:
Sorry... that last comment was to Gina (#56)
62. Gina said the following at 7:49 PM on Nov 10:
#59 -- true. For the record, I have said yes to the majority of the men who've asked me out. I'll give a kind, intelligent, decent Christian guy a chance. But by the same token, I'd like for some of those guys to give *me* a chance to get to know them at my own pace, and not cry "Rejection!" if I don't like, say, having an arm draped around my shoulders the entire time we're on our second date. (True example.)
63. Kelly-1 said the following at 8:00 PM on Nov 10:
Let me throw a couple of other insights out there.
1) When I was in my early 20's, many times if a guy asked me out, I was hit with paralysing fear. That resulted in an instant "No".
Other times, it was more of a gut-feeling that it was wrong, just a sense of unease with the whole thing. That also resulted in an instant "No".
I know that's not fair to the guys who asked, but when I had such a negative reaction, I wasn't going to ignore that.
2) Now I'm older (and wiser?) I don't have such a fear of "oh no he's going to expect a kiss and I don't even know if I like him" etc. I'm much more confident of myself and my ability to say no.
As a result, I say "Yes" more often (to the date, that is!)
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So guys, younger girls are more likely to turn you down. Not only out of fear, but they still feel like they have a lot of choice and can keep holding out for the guy they've got their eye on.
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I have 2 Christian single male friends. I often encourage them, saying, "Of course I'd date you; you're a great Christian man." And they are. (So why don't we date? Guy 1- We don't seem able to converse easily 1-on-1; it's filled with awkward silences. Guy 2- He's several years younger and is not in a place where he'd consider an older woman.)
64. BDB said the following at 12:19 AM on Nov 11:
Gina (#56) wrote:
>>Are girls supposed to be less discerning than guys? Are the guys supposed to do their research and be selective, but not the girls? And if so, why?<<
Not less discerning...more open to the possibility that a man is taking initiative because God is moving him too.
It varies so much by age, I can't say how many some should accept or reject. Elisabeth Elliot doesn't really believe in dating, but she relates a story from her boarding-school days how, under close adult supervision, girls were not allowed to decline an invitation and boys were not allowed to ask the same girl out twice in a row. With everyone following the same rules, it allowed interaction in a relatively safe way.
And I expect that it gave the boys enough experience asking and being in a girls company that he would be considerably more confident when asking for real.
I mean, today there is no general agreement on what the rules should be. Men can be rejected not for any issue with them, but because they didn't follow the particular woman's rules (that she keeps a secret to herself.)
That's why I think Novagirl has it right - even if she is not interested in that particular man, she will be able to learn more about him and perhaps identify a good match with another woman.
Here's an example: say a woman has no interest in politics, and a guy who asks her out likes to talk politics. If she knows a woman who likes politics, she can mention to him that this other woman is has similar politics.
There was once something I read about how to do good introductions. It involved not only their name, but also something about them. That immediately gives them something to talk about.
So, don't think of it as not being discerning, think of it as discerning which of your friends he would be a good match for...
65. Mike said the following at 4:17 AM on Nov 11:
Gina (#62) wrote:
I'd like for some of those guys to give *me* a chance to get to know them at my own pace, and not cry "Rejection!" if I don't like, say, having an arm draped around my shoulders the entire time we're on our second date.
Which brings up another good bit of advice for the guys:
Keep your paws to yourself!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled good advice from the fairer sex. :-)