Consumer Relationships by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 11/02/2009 at 3:33 PM

The other day I sat around a lunch table with a group of twenty-somethings. We got to talking about dating, and one girl made a very interesting point. "I think guys don't pursue the way we women want them to because they're getting their needs met through many different women and waiting for the non-existent all-in-one superwife."

Someone asked her to explain what she meant.

"Well," she said, "a guy may have one girl who makes him laugh, another with whom he can have deep conversation and still another that offers him encouragement."

I'm not relaying this conversation to put blame on guys, because I think women do this, too. At least I did. As a single, I had a guy friend to run with, a couple of guys I had dinner with every few months and another male friend with whom I could enjoy theological discussions over coffee. Part of surviving and enjoying life as a single is having meaningful relationships with members of the opposite sex. And these friendships do meet needs to a certain level.

The important question is: Do these relationships hinder people, men in particular, from engaging in intentional, one-woman relationships? Does it stave off the craving for a sole companion to the point where guys lose the desire to pursue? Or, like the twenty-something woman at my lunch table speculated, does this kind of diversifying make men (or women) discontent with an individual who possesses less than ALL the qualities he (or she) is getting from many people?

I don't know the answer. If this is the case, though, what can be done to end this consumer-based kind of relationship-building? How can singles reserve enough of themselves to be drawn to intentional relationships that offer them something they're not currently getting from a variety of sources?

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Consumer Relationships by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 11/02/2009 at 3:33 PM

The other day I sat around a lunch table with a group of twenty-somethings. We got to talking about dating, and one girl made a very interesting point. "I think guys don't pursue the way we women want them to because they're getting their needs met through many different women and waiting for the non-existent all-in-one superwife."

Someone asked her to explain what she meant.

"Well," she said, "a guy may have one girl who makes him laugh, another with whom he can have deep conversation and still another that offers him encouragement."

I'm not relaying this conversation to put blame on guys, because I think women do this, too. At least I did. As a single, I had a guy friend to run with, a couple of guys I had dinner with every few months and another male friend with whom I could enjoy theological discussions over coffee. Part of surviving and enjoying life as a single is having meaningful relationships with members of the opposite sex. And these friendships do meet needs to a certain level.

The important question is: Do these relationships hinder people, men in particular, from engaging in intentional, one-woman relationships? Does it stave off the craving for a sole companion to the point where guys lose the desire to pursue? Or, like the twenty-something woman at my lunch table speculated, does this kind of diversifying make men (or women) discontent with an individual who possesses less than ALL the qualities he (or she) is getting from many people?

I don't know the answer. If this is the case, though, what can be done to end this consumer-based kind of relationship-building? How can singles reserve enough of themselves to be drawn to intentional relationships that offer them something they're not currently getting from a variety of sources?

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Comments

[1. Jeffrey Whiting said the following at 4:07 PM on Nov 2:]

1

Suzanne asks: "Do these relationships hinder people, men in particular, from engaging in intentional, one-woman relationships? Does it stave off the craving for a sole companion to the point where guys lose the desire to pursue?"

I would answer in the affirmative, but immediately add that this hindrance attains specifically because it is how men have been taught to interact with women, and especially so in more intentional, conservative Christian circles.

Let's face the music: men are confused. Men are very much told - in not so many words - that pursuing women is unwelcome and that the better way to interact with them is through egalitarian, recreational social settings with the plug very much being about "getting to know them and letting things grow from there". It is understandable that people (especially women) want to be known and understood, but the kind of philosophies in vogue today among Christians often contradicts the supposed role of the man to be a pursuer.

In an older, more traditional society men and women did not usually interact with each other beyond an ephemeral level unless they were pairing off (if you're the romantic sort, think of the world of Jane Austin for instance). That is where the whole idea of calling and receiving suitors comes from: when men and women got to together it was to find a spouse. Not so today! It can mean any number of things and far from being discouraged this state of affairs is positively welcomed. In fact, the historical orientation of social roles I've just outlined is positively frowned upon; we are, as men, told to "get to know women", "not treat them as objects", and other such bromides that although well intentioned they may be stifle the instinct of men and their attractions to women.

[2. rushncap said the following at 4:08 PM on Nov 2:]

2

Well, in case of committed Christians it's rather simple: sex. For those of us who have no qualms about pre-marital sex it's harder. That's where "love" comes in.

[3. BDB said the following at 4:24 PM on Nov 2:]

3

Well, yes, that can be a dilemma. If someone is good at six things, and only meets women who share two of those interests, he could easily wonder why there aren't any women like him who are interested in all six of them.

C.S. Lewis has a very interesting discussion of this in The Four Loves chapter on "Friendship."

One traditional method of solving this is dividing up the worlds of men and women. As some people have no doubt read elsewhere on Boundless, there are some advocates of guys spending time "with their buddies." But not all men have the same interests. Some want to watch sports, some hunt, some play poker each week, some read classical literature, some go hiking. So, what happens is men participate in activities their wives don't share.

Another approach is to learn new things. I know a number of couples who talk about how their spouse introduced them to new ideas and activities they never would have tried otherwise. It's not necessary to match up on everything at the beginning if you're willing to grow.

But some people refuse growth opportunities. I've been surprised by the women I've met who don't read anything they don't have to. They'll do the reading for college classes, not not anything beyond that. And then they complain that they're not growing spiritually. Well, at some point people do need to take some responsibility for their own learning and growth.

I've known other women who were great fun discussing politics with. And yet, under no circumstances were they willing to volunteer in a church setting, let alone go on a mission trip or do outreach to the poor. But they were really good at going to the bar with "the girlz" to drink fruity beverages.

On the other hand, I know lots of women who volunteer at church who have zero interest in politics.

What to do, what to do.

As Suzanne has written about herself, the best way to come to a decision is probably to decide what one's calling from God is, and look for someone who shares that - and be willing to not share the other items. I think Suzanne found four areas of commonality, right? Children's ministry, running, improv and coffee. What if you'd only had one of those four?

[4. Emily said the following at 4:43 PM on Nov 2:]

4

I definitely don't think so. At least for me, right now, I need the male relationships. I need them to learn how to relate to men, and to understand how to best help a man grow to be more godly.

Beyond that, like you said - it staves off the loneliness. That being said, it doesn't do it very well. Every day I must battle myself to bring it to God and pray that He will fulfill my aching heart.

Perhaps for some, it fulfills this role, but seeing how much we talk about finding our husbands/wives (and how much we'll still need our friendships even after that happens), I feel like it's not really a problem.

[5. Tami said the following at 4:54 PM on Nov 2:]

5

It's one thing to sincerely evaluate whether or not we are in sync with another person, but another to constantly measure that person to someone(s) else. If we simply view X as "Not Y," then we don't appreciate X for all he is.

Perhaps we don't allow people the chance to be themselves, rather than being exactly like a certain aspect of someone else we've known.

I think there's a certain expectation that we'll find someone who has EVERYTHING, and to evaluate people based on whether New Guy is as funny as John, AND as intelligent as Joe, AND as spiritually deep as James. If New Guy fails on any count, well, it's just not meant to be because we won't "settle" for anything less than what we've already experienced -- which is also a bit unfair, because you're handpicking what made John, James, and Joe special and weighing it against what New Guy *doesn't* have (versus what he *does*). Sometimes we need to hit "reset" and gain new eyes for the person who's in front of us *at that moment.*

[6. Chris said the following at 5:12 PM on Nov 2:]

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I think you girls are overthinking it; us guys really aren't that complicated. Sure I have friendships with female friends, but it doesn't take the place of a relationship.

It all comes down to us guys taking the initiative and being intentional. And this is something we have to learn and grow into - it doesn't just happen. I can see it in myself...I've been out of college for a few years now and I can see that when I was in college, I didn't have a grasp on this concept enough. I used to keep sending out feelers to girls, so that if I asked her, I would know if I was going to get rejected or not. As I've matured as a guy, a person, and as a Christian, I now understand why I kept getting rejected and I'm making attempts to be more intentional.

Just keep praying for us guys as we develop and grow into the guy God has planned for you. We want you too, but we've gotta learn how to be intentional.

[7. Jeremiah said the following at 5:22 PM on Nov 2:]

7

I don’t know the answer to this question either. However, I do not think that taking away certain types of friendships from the equation will accomplish the desired result either. Would someone settle for less than the ideal if they are not getting their basic needs met? That’s kind of like asking if a staving person would settle for crackers instead of a stake. Of course they would… initially... But once they are fed, then the crackers stop sounding so appetizing and the person starts looking around for something else.

No, I think that we just need to recognize the fact that relationships are a lot more complicated than several generations ago, and that dating relationships must compete with a lot of other demands for our time (including other friendships). Plus, young people now have an almost unlimited supply of potential social circles, so it easy to imagine that the real “all in one super wife” is just around the next corner.

Overall, I think that trying to limit friendships between Christian men and women would backfire. Instead, we need to help educate people on what “items” on their lists are important and which ones are not.

Lastly, and here is the potentially controversial one, I think that we need to tell women AND men that they can do a better job of becoming “all in one superwife” or the “all in one super husband”. It’s not too early to start practicing sacrificial relationships and attempt to do a better job or understanding what matters to the opposite gender and striving to be that person.

Honestly, I think that women get frustrated by the notion of the "all in one superwife" becuase in their minds it entails a whole bunch of stuff that a lot of guys don't want and don't care about. My list has four items only. ;)

[8. Adam said the following at 5:30 PM on Nov 2:]

8

Suzanne,

I think there is a lot of really sloppy thinking going on in this. First of all, I think we have to define what we mean by "consumer relationships." Try isolating anyone; try even isolating a married couple from a society, and you will find problems start to creep in. Also, you will find that, in any relationship with those to whom you are not married, you will like different people for different reasons. There really needs to be more care in how you are defining these things, because the end result of this kind of thinking is the complete social abandonment of single men by single women. I don't see any other solution to what you are saying, so long as this remains so ambiguously defined.

Second, I think I would challenge the idea of marriage as a "need." Yes, I am aware of Genesis 2:18. The problem with the usage of that passage is that, because of the woman's sin, she can no longer function to solve the problem of Genesis 2:18. Now, there will be strife in the relationship [Genesis 3:16]. Keep in mind, Eve was created as a helper for Adam in order to solve his problem of aloneness. However, do we find woman acting as a helper in Genesis 3? No, of course not. Hence, I would argue that the only way this desire can be fulfilled is through what is stated in Genesis 3:15.

Also, another problem that should be brought up is the problem of how to interpret these things. For example, if someone takes out a gun, and shoots someone dead, and then says, "That's what you get for trying to kill me!," we would all think of the man as evil, especially if we know that the man he killed never hurt a housefly. However, what would happen if an examination were done on him, and it were reveal that he has schizophrenia? We would feel quite different about the whole situation. Because, as most would say, most women have a tendency to interpret things through the lens of their emotions, how will you distinguish between a women who feels that something like this is happening, and what the person is actually doing?

Finally, there is a huge assumption that marriage will fulfill the needs that these men are having. How do you know that? From what I have seen, what men and women need most is to find their ultimate delight in God. You see, because materialism has crept into our culture, we seem to think that worldly, materialistic solutions will solve things when they do not. My concern is that, if there is something inappropriate going on in the kind of scenario you describe, simply getting married will not solve the issue, because the true intimacy that they are seeking is something that no man or woman can offer.

Dr. VanGemeren has told us stories about couples who get into marriage, and then expect so much out of their spouse, that nothing their spouse ever does pleases them. Why is that? Simply because their expectations were for their spouse to fulfill a need their spouse was never designed to fulfill. The reason is because most of these "desires" that I hear especially women talk about go to the very heart of your nature, and if you are looking for a man or a woman to be able to solve those needs, you will fail badly. Those kinds of needs which I think men are trying to fill, but only by different means. If it truly is a comparison to something like the Trinity [which I have seen], then I fear that the only solution to these kinds of ultimate desires will be to find our ultimate delight and desire in God first, and then, these kinds of things will fall into place. In fact, you will be far more likely to marry, because you do not have these unrealistic expectations of your spouse.

I am not trying to say these things to be mean. I am just concerned with the lack of critical thinking that has been expressed on this topic. I have heard lots of emotion, but everything I have seen written and said about this topic is like looking into a room full of smoke. If you are going to accuse someone of something, you need to make clear and careful distinctions, and make sure that there is an avenue by which you can distinguish them. Also, the assumption of avenues of solutions needs to be more carefully developed, or otherwise, you will end up with worse problems than what you started with. That is my concern.

God Bless,
Adam

[9. Sara said the following at 5:37 PM on Nov 2:]

9

Hmm, it is an interesting theory! I used to joke that I had two best friends because they were both "best" at different things. I know when I met my husband he was able to satisfy needs that I didn't even realize I had. It is interesting... I don't think the Genesis story ever talks about Adam saying he felt alone, but God felt it was best he wasn't alone. That is similar to my situation... I didn't realize I was missing something until my husband came along.

I don't know if this "shopping cart friend syndrome" is a negative thing when it comes to finding a life partner. It wasn't for me, but I can certainly see how it could be.

[10. David Daniel said the following at 5:51 PM on Nov 2:]

10

I've been thinking a lot about this, especially in the context of being authentic. I feel we need to be more open to the people around us, more honest about our doubts and disappointments and more vulnerable. But should I do this with the opposite sex? What exactly should I keep exclusively for my future wife? I can have my "needs met" by my male friends: they make me laugh, they give me encouragement and I can have deep conversations with them. So why can't I do that with my female friends?

The times I have been intimate and open with female friends haven't put me off finding a wife. Quite the opposite. It made me want it more, almost unbearably so. But I couldn't tell you with certainty: this is the woman I should pursue.

I always remind myself of 1 Timothy 5:2 : "[treat] younger women as sisters, with absolute purity". My sister (in the usual sense) loves me and I love her. We have been open and have had our "needs met" through each other. We've hugged and held hands and encouraged each other. At one point, I felt that we held hands too often, I wanted to save that for my girlfriend and spouse. But otherwise I don't regret anything. Can't we be like that with our sisters in Christ?
Obviously, if I'm only being good friends with my female friends, something is wrong. I aim to pursue friendship to the fullest with my male friends, because I know that sexual impulses won't get in the way (for the most part). But I really hate having to restrain my desire for friendship with my sisters in Christ, for fear that it might somehow threaten my future marriage.

[11. Julie said the following at 5:54 PM on Nov 2:]

11

Hard to say---back in our parents' day, men would ask multiple women out. Dating didn't seem to be such a big deal, and it was expected you'd get to know many people. But it didn't seem to hinder most people from eventually "going steady" and getting married. I think people had more realistic expectations though and didn't have such an ideal of a "soul mate" or "super spouse." Or if they did, they didn't wait years and years to find it, and instead made compromises at earlier ages.

[12. Hunter W said the following at 5:56 PM on Nov 2:]

12

I don't think these kinds of relationships do that any more today than they did 50 years ago. Men and women have always been friends and these kinds of relationships have always existed.

Personally I think that one part of the problem is that Christians have over-spiritualized dating. The Church and other outlets, like Boundless and the book industry, tell us there are these rules we have to follow in dating. The problem is that everyone has different rules by which he or she wants to play.

Last week a reader posted a comment saying she rejected a guy she liked because he didn't persue her the precise way she thought she should be persued and she was now second guessing herself. In my experience, this is VERY common among women - and it confuses and confounds many guys to the point of non-action. They're told that stuff should go a certain way and when it doesn't they cut-and-run. You can even see the duplicity of statements left on the Boundless blog. If there are issues of character then turn the other way. If he just didn't do something the way you thought he should but you know his heart is good, stick around.

I think a second major sticking point in this is the lack of spiritual mentors for the post-college crowd, and for men in particular. I live in a city of 350,000+. I know over 200 Christians singles in their 20s and 30s (post college) who are struggling to find a church group with whom they can gather. Most of the churches have dropped this ministry or tried to combine a college-and-career group. I tried to get one started at my church and received very little support. In the 9 months I lead the group the pastor charged with overseeing the group never showed up... not even once. This lack of support for the post-college crowd (or The Forgotten Generation of the Church as I call it) trickles down and is modeled by the Church as a whole, IMHO. Therefore, a generation of men that grew up with no father or part-time fathers are now trying to figure out life on their own.

[13. Last One Home's Not Really Home said the following at 6:21 PM on Nov 2:]

13

Okay, I have a question and I need some opinions and help!!

What does one do when a man is intentionally pursuing (you are courting and know you both desire to get married) but he is wanting to wait on marriage for awhile?

My boyfriend is wonderful, we have a fantastic time together, we have been in mentorship with an older married couple since we started dating, it's been almost a year.... and he wants to live with a roommate for atleast another year......

I definitely struggle with wanting him, but he say he doesn't struggle with his thought life or temptation very much at all, so to him, another year is "all good".

So basically, I get a little bitter because I feel like he is getting a good deal (friendship, companionship, encouragment,cuddling up to watch movies, cuddling up to watch movies at home etc.) and I'm getting... not marriage and not sex, lol. Plus he maintains that since we are not married he doen't need to tell me his plans or check in with me or be affectionate in public (hugs, have his arm around me) because that "wouldn't seem appropriate to unbelievers".

I don't want to somehow limit my time with him or withdraw some of the my warmth and encouragment to try and manipulate him into marrying me-- but I kinda feel like he's getting a wife without having to marry anyone!

If it's a good thing for men and women to not have lots of emotionally fulfilling relationships in order to catapult them toward seeking a marriage for that purpose, is it okay to somehow attempt this when courting?

I always thought that once two believers loved and were committed to each other, typically the sexual aspect helsp them get to marriage quicker, but if he is content, what in the world do I do?

lol :)

[14. a sassy sister said the following at 8:08 PM on Nov 2:]

14

I think these relationships can hinder,but I think the problem is the "mentality" and motive, not simply the relationship. I wonder if it boils down to purpose and balance. It is one thing to have a variety of relationships with different types of people, male and female, but it is quite another in terms of the level of intimacy, investment, and expectations for each one.

I think the problem really boils down to an UNHEALTHY dependence on these relationships to avoid dealing with loneliness or other issues, and that can happen for some, but it doesn't happen for everyone. However, when it does, I think that people should, for starters:
Get real with yourself and check your motives, expectations, and ideas about relationships(even friendships) against Scripture. Are your expectations steeped in selfish gratification with minimal effort? Are you expecting perfection and your ideal without any change on your part?
If so, sounds like you're being influenced by a "consumer mentality."

I believe that the reason why "consumer relationships" happen is similar to the reason why the "friend zone" happens----one party is making themselves way too available and investing themselves waaay too much into the relationship, hoping the relationship will change.(I've been there, done that, and have plenty of T-shirts to prove it). There's also the chance that one person may have such a desire to be with someone that they look at all members of the opposite sex or in their vicinity as potential marital prospects, while not really looking closely at whether or not this someone they would be friends with, much less marry.

I currently am in a state like this, except for a few things: I am thoroughly convinced as a believer that my responsibility is to encourage my fellow believers, male and female. When it comes to guys, I remind myself that I will always be their sister in the faith, and that my responsibility to do right trumps their attractiveness, etc. Therefore, I understand that my assistance has no strings attached or secret plan attached to it. Those desires I take to God in prayer(and do my best to leave there). I also remind that living doesn't ultimately stop or start with marriage; it is simply a great continuance in an already wonderful story.

I think singles can be drawn to intentional relationships when they are in genunine, authentic, safe community with one another, but that also must be in conjunction with a single Christian's already existing, healthy relationship with God.

[15. eleanor said the following at 9:48 PM on Nov 2:]

15

perhaps we need to begin choosing and thinking about that one exclusive relationship as a place of service and sanctification rather than the ultimate source for relational fulfillment. Even in our approach to marriage we are very consumer minded, focused our achieving our happiness and relational perfection. My courtship experiences so far has been showing me how much selfishness consumes and thwarts my romantic hopes. But I've also noticed what a catalyst it's been in my sanctification. To borrow the subtitle from Gary Thomas's book "Sacred Marriage" (which I have yet to read): "What If God Designed Marriage to Make Us Holy More Than to Make Us Happy?" The title alone has given me much to consider.... I hope the book will too.

[16. Rob said the following at 9:52 PM on Nov 2:]

16

I think your friend is using her statistical knowledge of guys to stereotype them, which is what statistics is supposed to do. As I guy I feel the same way about girls, vis-a-vis. However, when it comes to finding the one you love, you can't stereotype, you take a risk and commit to the relationship (fyi, never had a girlfriend but I've observed the crowd long enough to make some observations). Everybody is an individual not easily define by statistics or stereotypes.

[17. Larissa said the following at 10:46 PM on Nov 2:]

17

I hadn't thought about this before, but I guess it is true. By having all your needs met by multiple people, why bother searching for "the one," when it'll be hard for them to meet all your needs?

I know I have guy friends who I go to for various reasons - one for theological conversations, one to make me laugh, one to reminisce, etc.
And yet the desire is still there for me to have a relationship with one guy only.
I'm willing to give up the closeness of other friendships, when "the one" (for lack of a better term) comes along. I wonder if that is where the issue is... people not being willing to sacrifice every need being perfectly met, for every need being met as best as one person is able.

[18. FutureMrsLarijani said the following at 5:33 AM on Nov 3:]

18

My two cents after spending four years at a conservative, Christian post-secondary institution and being almost married to someone who did not have the same collegiate experience I did:

Many early 20-something Christians come from some very un-Christian homes. The teaching at their churches are not much better. They seem to enter early adulthood with a very low view of marriage. If not a low view of marriage, then their idea of commitment is often warped. That Hollywood idea of chemistry is bought into. People think relationships should be easy.

I think I can speak for Amir and I when I say it was not love at first sight. There were no flying doves or fireworks going off in the background. At several key points we made conscious choices to love each other. Now - 32 days out from The Day - there is nobody else that we would so willingly make so many sacrifices for.

[19. Vanessa said the following at 5:59 AM on Nov 3:]

19

I really, REALLY think it does for a lot of people. It does seem that men are more likely to not work for a relationship if they have a lot of female friends more than a woman will not work for a relationship if they have a lot of male friends.

I guess it could be because we women are more relational in general? I do know several guys who are content to hang out with their friends who are girls and while they may from time to time express a desire for a relationship...they don't seem in any hurry to get there.

For me, having a few guy friends isn't coming CLOSE to satisfying the desire for a husband of my own. I must admit that I limit one-on-one contact with my guy friends (with whom I feel no romantic inclination for various legitimate reasons) to the "less than the 2-hour per week" rule and I also don't give anything physically except infrequent "side hugs." Also, at least half of my male friends are married and I'm just as good of friends with their wives (and only hang out with them as a couple).

[20. Shavonne Nicole said the following at 7:13 AM on Nov 3:]

20

As a young woman in his 20's, I find myself at the same table as the abovementioned woman. I have several male friends, some of whom are very dear and close to me and since finding the Boundless website, I've been wondering if I need to cut my guys out of my life. Reading the post this morning is helping to change how I view my relationships with these guys and the lack of intentionality on both parts. Keep the good things coming, Boundless!

[21. Paul said the following at 7:42 AM on Nov 3:]

21

I don't know whether such relationships do hinder guys from engaging in intentional relationships. I can muse, but better to tell my own story.

What I can testify to is that I'm a single guy who definitely doesn't ask (female) friends out to dinner (Podcast Episode 92), doesn't deliberately engage young ladies in one on one deep and meaningful conversations or theological discussions, and generally keeps such relationships on a shallower level than those with my male friends.

Even as I write this, I'm realising that this might be something of a problem, and that perhaps it's time for me to begin engaging women at least a little more deeply. Time for a mixed bible study group perhaps.

But that's not the point.

The point is, what I do have is a serious, deep and currently growing desire to find a wife.

In truth, there are probably other causes more powerful, including the way I feed the desire with pro-marriage material such as Boundless.

But still, perhaps my desire is, in part, driven by the fact that I'm not gaining satisfaction anywhere else.

[22. Elizabeth H. (Russia) said the following at 7:58 AM on Nov 3:]

22

I was wondering about this, too. I have a few guy friends who have very close friendships with many girls at church. It's not that they are "playing the field," but that they have no lack of female companionship. It makes me wonder if it slows down the pursuit of more intentional relationships.

I took a few steps back from some of these friendships. But it is hard to watch other girls continuing to be casual about deep friendships with guys. It makes me feel that I am too rigid. Maybe I come off as unfriendly to the guys. In some ways I feel at peace about living out my convictions. But then I start comparing myself to others.

The answer? Maybe the topic should be brought up in a larger group. Because if the atmosphere in a certain fellowship group has a "buddy" tendency, then one guy or girl trying to do things differently probably isn't going to make much of an impact. It takes accountability.

[23. Doc said the following at 7:59 AM on Nov 3:]

23

I believe that the determining factor in these type of friendships (i.e., where there is no interest in a long term relationship) is whether or not it would be appropriate to continue them at the same level after marriage to someone else. This is something that I have been convicted of recently and I have had to "dial back" my friendships with a couple of single female friends in order to avoid sending the wrong signals to them.

[24. Nate said the following at 9:04 AM on Nov 3:]

24

Posts like this discourage me, not due to the poster, due to the true message it contains. Thanks to Boundless, prayer and a lot of my own research, I'm learning how much there really is to marriage and being married, and how little of it is know by Americans primarily due to this consumer mentality.

Case in point. I decided a few weeks ago to try out online dating, just to see what it was about. Trying to be a Christian with a brain & not a mindless lemming waiting for signs from heaven, I just wanted to explore it some and see what it had to offer, (note consumer mindset even ahead of time). I have to admit it was somewhat enjoyable and interesting, but in the same way that it would be if I was shopping for hockey sticks or skates, (I'm not a motor-head, so the car shopping analogy is out). It was kinda fun to see who came up based on various criteria I designated.

As I moved along though, I had the unsettling feeling that I was 'shopping'. All these 'listings' are PEOPLE. Real God-loved people with feelings and personalities. The ones I looked at were largely based on appearance and my own desired criteria. Additionally, almost every 'listing' included quite dissertation on what that person 'wanted' out of a perspective mate. The whole experience made me very uncomfortable and 3 days into it, I backed out of it completely.

Interestingly enough, I had been praying quite a bit about online dating before & during my little 'experiement'. When I canceled my last membership at 12:34AM, I felt a great peace come over me. I felt like I had explored an option, found it lacking on many levels, was convicted to move on, and obeyed God by backing away.

Now, understand that was ME, MY experience and MY conviction. Some people have done online dating and it has worked very well for them. I believe God can use it, like many flawed tools in our midst. As for me, I found it to be extremely 'consumer minded' and I could not continue with it.

I've related this anecdote to underscore my hearty agreement with Suzanne's assessment of our consumerist mentality when it comes to dating and marriage. As much as the discussion she had with her friends angers me...they are sadly right on the money in most cases. I'm not immune or guiltless, though I believe that the events of the last couple years are moving me away from that line of thinking. Yes, I have desires and hopes about what my future wife will be like; looks, interests, beliefs, etc. There is nothing wrong with that. But when I start to take a "Consumer Reports" method of selection, I end up looking for a "super-wife" that doesn't exist. In it's absence, I closely befriend several women, each able to meet a particular emotional, intellectual, or, sadly, physical need I may have. As a result, I never commit to anyone, but string a bunch of decent women along.

EXACTLY as described above. I'm appalled and disgusted by the truth of what they shared.

The "Guy's Guide to Marrying Well" is a fabulous resource. I've read it through repeatedly, and come to the conclusion that the one for me is very close by. However, I have much to learn about marriage itself, and in good time, God will reveal her to me. Our marriage will be fun, hard, exciting, sad, enjoyable, maddening, but ultimately, loving and committed.

The 'Marrying Well' guides are great resources. Boundless is a wonderful resource that I lean on. Ultimately, however, we Christians need to get back on our knees and read our bibles if we hope to change the consumerist tide and make marriage holy again. It sounds simple, because it is. We need not complicate what God has made simple. God help us and our country if we don't.

--NMM

[25. NSL said the following at 9:11 AM on Nov 3:]

25

My initial response to the article is that guys are still motivated to pursue a wife so that they can get their sexual needs met.

But sadly, many men have women in their lives who are willing to illegitimately fulfill those needs too.

[26. Thats Me said the following at 9:51 AM on Nov 3:]

26

Wow, what a topic. This sounds like your friends were talking about me.

As far as what to do to help, I think Boundless is doing plenty to help. I'm able to say that, because this sounds like where I was a little over a year ago.

I don't know if the problem is so much guy's not wanting to pursue women and leeching. I know a lot of guys that try to pursue, but then get tired of hearing "I just wanna be friends". The REAL problem happens when these "friends" carry on like they're dating anyway, and women aren't innocent in enabling this type of behavior, either. It's easy to believe that ALL girls just want to be friends, so it's just easier for a guy to not try and pursue, and then we have cases of opposite sex friends just leeching from each other. I like how you said that there are healthy things that come from healthy opposite sex friendships, but things get unhealthy when boundaries get bad. Someone has to make a decision that they won't play that game (the we're not dating but we act like it game), and that if they want extra time and attention from a person, that they are going to need to commit to something.

I was a part of a group that fed off each other for opposite sex companionship, but God helped me realize that my behavior was crippling my vision for marriage. I learned some good things during that time, like women that cared about holiness really DID exist. So from that, I learned for the future that instead of jumping at the first woman I saw, God helped me sharpen some standards and gave me a list of things to pray for in a wife.

Other things that helped me on Boundless were topics about risking rejection, reading "Not your buddy", and just realizing that I wouldn't get anywhere in my dream for marriage if I kept up 8-10 surface level relationships. God helped me realize I needed to commit to one.

Well anyway, I'll digress. Boundless helped me a lot w/ this and getting intentional, and now I'm in a courtship with one of the young women I had a chance to build a friendship with in those groups. Which reminds me! That was one really good thing that I did appreciate. I got to know my girlfriend as an acquaintance for quite awhile, and we got to see eachother's character in action while we weren't trying to impress the other and just wear a mask. :)

So I guess after all that I wrote, mixed gender groups really do have other healthy aspects to it. Just helping a young man get started in pursuit isn't one of them.

[27. Jeffrey Whiting said the following at 10:14 AM on Nov 3:]

27

I think much of these comments are missing the point.

The question seems to be this: do platonic friendships and egalitarian social roles hinder the male pursuer imperative?

And the answer: of course it does! There is no need to jump through a thousand hoops of contortion to understand this simple principle: men don't pursue because they are told not to.

However, I have low hopes the situation will be reversed because, again, even conservative Christians seem to favor this egalitarian social arrangement and are unwilling to revert to more traditional mores. To put it another way: they want to have their platonic friendship cake and eat it too.

[28. Jeremiah said the following at 10:27 AM on Nov 3:]

28

"I think guys don't pursue the way we women want them to because..."

Lets break down this statement for a minute. A group of 20-something women get together to discuss dating and the focus of the conversation is why don't MEN do things in the way that the women want them to. The girls then brainstorm a bunch of crazy ideas - mind you, without seeking input from a real live actual Christian man. (Kind of like Democrates trying to come up with a "bipartinsan" solution that is completely devoid of Republicans.)

Then the list of solutions becomes what can women do the FORCE men to behave like the women think they should. (Notice that there are still no actual men engaged in this initial conversation).

Maybe, just maybe, its not the guys that are 100% the problem here.

[29. Will said the following at 10:36 AM on Nov 3:]

29

It really bothers me that women expect men to "risk rejection", whatever that means. It goes against human nature to do that; in every other area of life, human beings always weigh the possibility of success against the possible drawbacks of a failed attempt (awkwardness around that person, damaged self esteem, etc. etc.)

Saying things like "You should find your worth in God" are kind of silly; God designed us a certain way...we are relational, and we get emotionally wounded whether we trust in God or not.

Like it or not girls, a guy is not going to ask you out without a reasonable probability of success; even a 50/50 shot in his mind is not going to be good enough.

[30. Jeremiah said the following at 10:51 AM on Nov 3:]

30

Ok, my last few comments were semi-polite. Now, I've read through more of the posts and its just making me upset. ...The gloves are comming off. ;)

I can't believe how many people on here (especially the guys) are just nodding their heads and going along with this ridiculous theory. Yup, Christian guys are not pursuing the women at church because we already get ALL our needs taken care of - running partner, check; conversation partner, check; prayer buddy, check.

This is insane!!!!

A man's number one need is for sex. This need is biblically documented and is justified over and over again in Christian pre- and post-marital counseling. The desire for sex is what causes a man to leave his parents and seek out a wife in order to become one with her in flesh. This desire does not change because a guy has found some female friends to go running with. There is something else going on here that is hindering that guy from making a move...

9 times out of 10, my guess is that "the guy" you ladies are talking about is not really into the women that are his Christian friends. He has his eye on someone else.

Can we please stop letting one gender dictate how they (women) think that men think. Most of it is just flat out wrong.

In fact, ending male-female friendships is about the worst advice I can think of in this situation. If men and women didn't understand each other before, how is seperating the genders going to help them know each other better?

[31. edwige said the following at 12:05 PM on Nov 3:]

31

#6. Chris
>> Just keep praying for us guys as we develop and grow into the guy God has planned for you. We want you too, but we've gotta learn how to be intentional.<<

I am doing so and I am encouraging my sistas around me to do so too =)!! And we are expecting God to answer more than what we are praying for... like he promised in his words =)!!

#24 Nate
>>Ultimately, however, we Christians need to get back on our knees and read our bibles if we hope to change the consumerist tide and make marriage holy again. It sounds simple, because it is. We need not complicate what God has made simple. God help us and our country if we don't.<<
So true and I agree with most of what u said!!

BOUNDLESS and BOUNDLESS COMMUNITY YOU HAVE BEEN AND STILL ARE A BLESSING =)!

[32. Elizabeth said the following at 1:02 PM on Nov 3:]

32

Thank you Suzanne for another insightful post! I am encouraged by this as I'm all too familiar with this.

In my own humble experience, I've made similiar mistakes and realized I was putting my own needs before the other person. God really spoke to my heart by reminding me to put myself in others shoes or "do to others as you would have them do to you". In turn, I had to have a couple conversations with some guy friends which involved me to ask for their forgiveness (thankfully no damage was done to our friendship - and we're still friends today). But I really had to think outside of my own needs and onto them and what I could be doing that would be harmful to the friendship.

I am very encouraged by comments #24 & 26. I unfortunately had to go through a painful experience with a brother in Christ where unfortunately our friendship suffered and eventually was severed. We both agreed to have a friendship first before pursing a relationship. It hurt a great deal to realize I was strung along. It still hurts, however I've learned a great deal from that. I've learned that clear communication and boundaries are key. Also after talking to several Godly married couples, praying before initiating a 1:1 relationship/courtship is key. I also seek out accountability with others in the church before I get involved in a 1:1 relationship. But I learned not to do any real "deep sharing" or a lot of 1:1 time until a commitment is made. It's easy for a woman to get emotionally attached, especially when discussing sensitive topics like what we are looking for in a mate and how many kids we'd like to have.

Thankfully through the pain, I'm learning more about selflessness, and putting others before myself.

[33. Nikki said the following at 1:08 PM on Nov 3:]

33

The minute you put boundaries up guys notice.

I'm the funny girl that likes to bake. And many of my guy friends think I'm hilarious and enjoy eating my kitchen creations. Life was good, but no guys asked me out.

When I stopped being as avaliable to the guys in my life. Stopped being thier buddy, and began to only interact with them in group setting in one - two times a week, its amazing how much more they respected me and began to see me as a potential wife. They always knew the good qualities about me but they could partake of them whenever.

Now they see me as more than just a jokester buddy. The less accessible I became, the more mysterious I became and only through pursuing and ultimately commitment to me in a relationship are they going to peel back the layers of this mystsery

[34. Jo said the following at 1:31 PM on Nov 3:]

34

You know, if one part of a human body doesn't work properly, other parts will try to compensate. The body is wonderfully versatile like that.

Human beings are versatile too, and since we thrive on encouragement, fun, intellectual stimulation and all these other things, it makes sense that we're going to seek those things out as best we can. Reading Paul's post #21, I just think it's not healthy to deprive ourselves of meaningful relationships just because we're single.

But just like the body will revert to its 'natural' state as soon as the not-working part is fixed, the fact that we have fun and engage in deep discussions with people of the opposite sex doesn't mean we're not going to recognise a potential marriage partner when one shows up.

Definitely, we can have wrong priorities and too-high expectations (which I think is what Suzanne was talking about in the OP) - and this is something to guard against.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater, for goodness sake. Friendships with a variety of people are healthy and beneficial. If I didn't have the close friends I have (both male and female), singleness would really suck. I'm grateful for them every day. It doesn't stop me wanting to be married, and it's not going to make me blind to the right guy when he comes along.

[35. BDB said the following at 1:53 PM on Nov 3:]

35

This is probably one of those things that varies by personlity type. Analytical personalities are going to be more aware of what they do and do not have in common with others.

Try this on:

Single women at church: 50
Who've been on a mission trip: 20
Who believe in tithing: 3
Who like to hike and camp: uh-oh...

Now, combine that with the general expectation men have to financially support a family. So, they officially focus on getting their financial house in order while watching for someone who matches all their categories. In the mean time, they hang out in groups with women who don't understand why they're not being asked out.

I mean really, when someone meets a person with a LOT in common, the wedding can happen fast. When they only have a little in common, maybe it takes time for each of them to bend a little bit and try new things, and to appreciate what different people offer.

I've had very long conversations with two of my friends before they got engaged, where they really thought through the strenghts and weaknesses of the person they were considering. They realized they were giving up part of what they had hoped to share with someone.

BUT...in both cases the person they married was willing to be flexible. One really liked to volunteer, but her husband not so much. But he WAS very supportive of her efforts, and was careful to not interfere or inhibit her volunteer activities. And, 10 years after their wedding, she excitedly told me about a volunteerng thing HE had organized. It still mattered to her, but they made accomodations so that each could pursue their hobbies with other friends.

Another friend who was considering proposing related how the woman hated guns, but was willing to go shooting with him once. Again, this was an activity he had hoped to share. But instead, he was impressed by her willingness to be flexible and at least try. He can always go with his dad and brothers, and she doesn't get in the way of that.

Honestly, if there was less group activity I think you'd have more dating - and more breakups. People would find out things in the course of dating that were deal-breakers for them, instead of observing them in a group setting.

[36. Nate said the following at 1:57 PM on Nov 3:]

36

Jeremiah (#30):

While I promise to be respectful, I play a TON of ice hockey and something about the loss of gloves.

I would say to an extent, speak for yourself. Yes, sex is a big need in mens live. I'm single, and God has been very gracious in toning back my sex drive while I am searching for a life-mate. But make no mistake. I miss it, and want it badly. HOWEVER, your characterization makes us men out to be ravenous animals concerned primarily with sex and lots of it. I think that is horse crap. So what happens when a guy gets old enough to loose the ability to enjoy sex (heaven help me)?? Ditch the ole' girl, grab some V-pills and find a new model? Gimme a break.

Sex is very important to me, and there is NOTHING wrong with wanting a wife that is attractive me, with one of the intents being the eventual enjoyment of the marital bed, (couch, floor, counter, ice, etc). But to make that the PRIMARY issue is wrong and, frankly, un-true.

Additionally, no one wants to separate genders. The GOAL here is approach such relationships with care, so they don't become deep enough that the girl gets emotional involved while the guy has no such intentions. I've been drug along before and dropped like a hot potato, and it's no fun.

As has been made clear in scripture, on Boundless and elsewhere, the man has the responsibility to lead in the church, and the home. If there are messes left and right, more then likely the guys ARE at fault, and maybe we need to man up to that responsibility and do something about it rather then stick it back in the girls faces. I'm as guilty as anyone, and have years of marital pain to show for it. But with God's enablement, I'm trying to be one small part of turning the tide of lethargy and taking some responsibility.

Submitted with respect & love. My gloves are back on and down I skate to score more goals.

--NMM

[37. Adam said the following at 2:03 PM on Nov 3:]

37

Nikki,

When I stopped being as avaliable to the guys in my life. Stopped being thier buddy, and began to only interact with them in group setting in one - two times a week, its amazing how much more they respected me and began to see me as a potential wife. They always knew the good qualities about me but they could partake of them whenever.

And what of Jesus' commands in Matthew 18?:

Matthew 18:15-20 "And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst."

Again, I am seeing a lot of anger, but a real lack of clarity as to what everyone is angry about. I am not even saying that anyone is wrong in what they have said [except, if something is wrong, I think that Jesus' commands in Matthewn 18 need to be followed]. I am just concerned that everything is not very clearly defined, and this could be easily used as a blank check for anything a woman might deem as a "consumer relationship."

God Bless,
Adam

[38. Myr said the following at 2:11 PM on Nov 3:]

38

Someone with whom you can laugh, have deep conversations, and who is encouraging, is not an unrealistic ideal or a "non-existent all-in-one superwife."

[39. Tami said the following at 2:32 PM on Nov 3:]

39

Jeremiah (30) wrote:

"9 times out of 10, my guess is that 'the guy' you ladies are talking about is not really into the women that are his Christian friends. He has his eye on someone else."

I have genuine, non-snarky questions to ask. If this is true:

1. Why does he bother hanging out with women he's not really "into"? To me it implies that he *is* getting some sort of benefit from these relationships. And why not make it clear to those girls that he *is* into *someone else* if that's the case... and then pursue that girl he's interested in?

2. (This one may not be explainable.) Most groups of women include at least one girl that is, objectively, physically attractive. If the guy really likes hanging out with these girls, there's nothing unappealing/unattractive about them, and they are pretty, most girls eventually wonder: why isn't he asking one of us out? If the guy's not "into" her (even considering her coolness as a friend, her prettiness, her kindness and good Christian character, etc) -- why?

For example: I'm currently around a guy who is constantly saying he can't get a date, can't find any girls who would be interested, etc. etc. Yet I know a girl who knows him (and the women who know him), and she says, "Oh yeah, he says that, but a TON of girls are interested in him." These are attractive, outgoing Christian girls. Something doesn't add up. It's one thing to say "I haven't met The One yet" and another to say "I never meet ANYONE who might be interested" and yet the situation is quite the contrary (as evidenced by the many girls who are attracted). As an observer, it sort of baffles me.

I wonder if there's a degree of "familiarity breeding contempt" going on here. Which might be part of the issue... and why I think Nikki (33) was wise to pull back.

[40. Jeremiah said the following at 3:11 PM on Nov 3:]

40

Nate (#36),

I respect your opinion and do concede that some men have different sex drives than others. I also, assume from your post that you are coming from the perspective of a man that is, or has been, married. I would theorize that the “concept” of marital sex looks much different and perhaps more enticing from the outside…

That said, do you really think that single men are not stepping up because single women are TOO available for friendship? Because that, to me, is the gist of the article…

I guess I’m a little more in the camp with BDB (#35). I have several fairly close single Christian female friends. The reason I don’t ask them out is because we have major differences on BIG issues. Usually its stuff like finances, or excercise, or alcohol, or past relationships, or goals... I don’t know, maybe I’m the freak here… but I don’t think "too much friendship" is the problem.

The gender divide is much more complicated than that.

[41. Paul said the following at 3:21 PM on Nov 3:]

41

#30, Jeremiah

It's a sunday school response in some ways, but I think it's important to remember that man's biggest need isn't sex, but God's saving grace by faith in Jesus. Everything else pales in comparison, and it's always a point I bear in mind when talking about this stuff. :D

[42. Jeremiah said the following at 3:30 PM on Nov 3:]

42

Tami (#39),
I can only speak for myself but here are my thoughts.

1. Why does he bother hanging out with women he's not really "into"?

Answers:

Female perspective: Sometimes it’s good to get the female take on what you are doing right/wrong as a guy.
Inside Info: If you get to be good enough friends with a woman she may give you the inside scoop on that girl you like at church… or a heads up on which ones are into you.
Connections: In theory, single Christian women have single Christian female friends. My hope that my female friends will think I’m fantastic and set me up with one of her girlfriends. The thought that she may be into me doesn’t always occur.
Bait: The secular world tells men that women are into guys that have a certain “ladies man” charm. If I am at the park with a female friend I draw far more attention and looks from other girls than if I am there for myself.

[43. BDB said the following at 3:33 PM on Nov 3:]

43

Tami (#39) wrote:

>>"Oh yeah, he says that, but a TON of girls are interested in him." These are attractive, outgoing Christian girls. Something doesn't add up.<<

I read an interesting article once titled, "Rewarding A while hoping for B."

The best example I've observed is those who constantly go after members of the opposite sex who are optimized for entertainment - always planning or going to a party, etc. Yet come away disenheartened that none of them have a heart for God.

Well, they're looking for the wrong trait. A lot of people who are earnestly following God decide that he is not to be found in alcohol-soaked entertainment. So you won't find them in the center of the party. Wrong place to look.

And frankly, some of those party-minded people ARE very outgoing and DO show interest quickly. And they extend invitations much more readily. Non-Christian women often extend invitations to social events.

So, in comparison, the more sincere Christians, who aren't building their life around alcohol, SEEM less interested - especially those women who bury their feelings until the man takes initiative. He might be comparing apples and oranges.

Which is why Elisabeth Elliot's approach makes so much more sense: simply counsel the guy to set aside the list of things he's looking for, and pray for God to bring to his attention what he OUGHT to be looking for instead. God is fully capable of answering prayer - but first people need to actually pray.

(For an interesting example of this, go through all the healing miracles in the New Testament. You may have heard that Jesus never healed two people the same way twice. But there are two things he did do. First, they had to tell him what they wanted OUT LOUD. They had to say it; they had to ask. Second, he gave them something to do - they had to choose whether or not to obey. "Stretch Out Your Hand" was an absurd request, but they guy obeyed and his prayer was answered.)

[44. Myr said the following at 3:38 PM on Nov 3:]

44

# 39

As for the scenario you propose, you have much more information about the situation than he does, unless he's been told that many of his female friends and acquaintances really are interested in him. Most likely no one says that to his face. Even if they did, there's always the idea that they could just be saying it to make him feel better rather than relating an as of yet unknown fact. All he may see are girls who are friendly to him, and as has been stated many times and in many places, a girl acting friendly or kindly does not necessarily mean she's interested, she could just be being polite. I don't know what he knows and how he thinks. You probably have a better idea than I do. Just keep in mind, you get to hear his side of the story and the girls' side, while he may only be hearing his. And of course there's always the possibility that he's not interested in the girls you both know for one reason or another. There are countless variables when it comes to humans and what goes on inside their heads. Don't be quick to judge.

(It's like this documentary I saw where they used night vision to record a leopard stalking a herd of gazelle or some other deer-like animal at night. You could plainly see that the leopard was right out there in the open and very close to its prey. It was easy to forget that you could see more than the animals could. It was easy to wonder how they did not see that leopard that was RIGHT there, SO close. You had night vision, they didn't.)

And of course, you know more about the situation than I do, so you might know something that proves me wrong.

[45. Jeremiah said the following at 4:05 PM on Nov 3:]

45

Part II

2. Groups of women, etc…

I’ve only got theories on this one, but here goes….

Most female groups do tend to have an “alpha female” who is typically the prettiest one in the group. Then again, the alpha female is usually the one that is getting the most attention, and therefore has less incentive to actually accept offers. Meanwhile her friends stand by, sometimes in silent jealously, while verbally building up the alpha female by telling her how pretty she is.

Sigh… sorry, rabbit trail….

Anyway, if the man is pleading that no one is in to him he may be testing the waters to see if he can get any info - which will increase his chances of success when he does make a move. He very likely has his eye on the alpha but will settle for an alternative if the alpha is out of his league, or is taken. More likely though, a single guy will switch groups rather than giving up on an alpha that he feels is a worthy lateral match…

The other possibility – and I see this often – is that the concept of a lateral match is not the same to both parties. The man may have a super high impression of himself and he feels that all the girls in the group are beneath him to a point where it doesn’t even occur to him that ANYONE in that group is datable. …In other instances, the girls themselves have misjudged their appeal or what this guy is looking for and assume that they are in the running when they really aren’t even close.

(For example, Bachelor A likes skinny girls and everyone in the group is very pretty, but perhaps more curvy… no amount of good qualities or arguing the point will change that guy’s preference and all the girls are going to be confused… God can change hearts and may eventually change this man’s preferences. However, the saddest thing is to see women obsessed over men that are clearly not into them, meanwhile the man that does want to be with that girls is desperately waiting for an opening – but she never even looks his way. FYI, I’ve been on both sides of that equation… )

I also agree that familiarity breeds contempt. I have several groups of female friends where one or two of the members are very datable – strong Christians, cute, attractive, great personality, etc. But in these cases I have already dismissed the dating potential. Perhaps that woman is highly critical of me because I go to happy hour on Fridays with my coworkers. In this case, any amount of alcohol is a deal breaker for her… I’m not going to even try to change her mind. In my experience, it’s just not worth the fight. So, game over. Then over time, she is wondering why I don’t make a move and I honestly have stopped considering the possibility.

Confusing? Yes. Believe me we’re all real frustrated by this.

[46. Kellie said the following at 4:08 PM on Nov 3:]

46

Re #13: It would depend on his reasons for wanting to wait. Do they seem valid to you? Your mentor couple? And (I hate to ask), does he perhaps not really want to marry you?

[47. Nate said the following at 4:49 PM on Nov 3:]

47

Jeremiah (40):

Good response, good conversation. I just want to redirect a little bit. The original points I made are that (a) not all men are sex-crazed animals, and (b) that too many close friendships with girls, (and I do speak from the guys' point of view, hence the one-way choice of words) can be highly detrimental to some of those girls due to potential emotional investment on their part, while lacking any on our part, which seems to be the spirit of the original discussion Suzanne detailed. That's what I wanted to convey.

Why guys don't step up as they should in relationships, (before / during)? Well, that's another discussion altogether.

And yes, I come from a very difficult marriage that ultimately was ended by my cheating spouse. The lack of sex, intimacy / communication on all levels was a source of excruciating pain for me. Odd as it may seem, I feel that I, while no longer a virgin, have yet to truly give all of myself to a woman. It's a long story I've revealed up here before, but it's my context of thinking. I am trying to change myself, with God's enablement, to be a real man and step out when it seems appropriate.

Respectfully,

--NMM

[48. a sassy sister said the following at 4:55 PM on Nov 3:]

48

to #13:

I had a friend of mine who was in a similar situation. However, one of the things I emphasized in our conversations is not a good idea to FORCE OR MANIPULATE A MAN INTO MARRIAGE...and if you feel yourself mentally going into that mode in this relationship, then I think you're handling your desire for marriage the wrong way(not to mention making your relationship more like a parent-child than two grown adults). I think you should ask yourself: What is the point of this relationship, and what objective am I accomplishing by getting in it? I understand that you've invested a year in this relationship....but isn't it better not to rush a major, life-changing decision of entering into the covenant of marriage? I believe that a big reason why some divorces happen in churches is because some people want to get married so strongly that they ignore red flags or major trouble spots in the relationship(and in their own hearts) to get married.

I don't want to be brutal about this, but it sounds like you're more emotionally invested in this relationship than he is(I could be wrong, but you won't know what the story is until you ask him flat out). When actions and words don't match up, then you need to have a conversation about it (and not one amped up on emotions). I also believe that you should also enter a courtship with the understanding that while your intent is to pursue marriage, you should also be aware that even a courtship process isn't a guarantee against a relationship not working out. Not trying to be cynical, just being realistic. But you won't know the truth until you talk to him about it.

[49. Lucie said the following at 5:58 PM on Nov 3:]

49

Like Kellie #46, I found #13's description of her boyfriend puzzling, if not disturbing. I'm no expert on this matter, and I don't want to further the "ravening male beast" stereotype, but frankly, I've never heard of anyone (of either sex) possessed of what would be considered a normal and healthy sex drive say that they don't "struggle with their thought life or temptation very much" - especially after a year of dating! Kellie asked a difficult question - does the young man really want to marry? - but it needs to be asked. Sounds like it's time for the couple's mentors to do a little serious questioning.

The fact that the gentleman also doesn't see any need to tell #13 his plans, or check in with her, simply because they are not married, is another red flag, IMO. I would tell #13 to proceed with great caution. A little backing off on her part might provide some needed revelation, as well.

[50. Lucie said the following at 6:01 PM on Nov 3:]

50

Male friendship is something I've missed in my life for years now. It adds a nice balance. Interestingly, though, a lot of my male friends turned out to be gay. Well, they are easier for women to talk to! (LOL) Seriously, though, I'm curious to know if other women on this board have had a similar experience.

[51. Shauna said the following at 8:20 PM on Nov 3:]

51

Lucie (50)-
I agree that having male friends is a refreshing change from female friends. For many years I haven't had any, but recently I re-connected with one. The problem was, he is not a Christian, so he is not dateable. That puts him the in friends-only category, but besides that, I found that I had to cut back spending time with him because I enjoyed it so much. So I can see the danger as well as the benefit of opposite-sex friends. Certainly it has helped to increase my confidence (I'm not totally repugnant to guys- yay!) but it also made me want to go to him to get my emotional needs met. I have to say, the whole experience has served to make me desire marriage more than ever, and to have more hope that it is somewhere in my future. But if I had continued in a close friendship with this guy, I most definitely would have become too attached. And that's not fair to other any other guys that may become interested in me. So my opinion is: yes, have opposite-sex friends, but don't let them get too close. Maintain your boundaries and keep looking for the special one that you can let them down for.

[52. Kelly-1 said the following at 8:21 PM on Nov 3:]

52

10. David Daniel - you spoke of holding hands with your sister(s), and loving her, and she loving you. I'm confused: a blood-sister or a sister-in-Christ? If she's the latter, I would be 90% convinced that she has a crush on you, is probably in love with you, and is waiting for you to realise that she will be your perfect wife.

If she's your blood sister, then wow, what an awesome relationship to have.

13. Last One Home's Not Really Home - yikes. He doesn't sound very committed at all! I've seen guys like this: they think, "Marriage is the next logical step," rather than, "I love and want to marry this girl!" Let me warn you, even if marriage is the next logical step, there's no guarantee he'll actually do it.

I would say your relationship is in serious trouble. Maybe break it off for a while and see how you both feel?

----

My take on this? About 2 years ago, I consciously chose to not be good friends with men any more. I'd been in so many situations where one of us wanted more and the other didn't and it just caused endless pain.

Since then, I've been lonelier. I REALLY MISS male friendship.

I also recognise in myself that if I allow myself to become close to a man (deep conversations), I will inevitably fall for him, or him for me. That's why I don't want to have these deep conversations under the guise of friendship. I want it to be *clearly* a date.

How many dates have I had in the last 2 years? Um...2. Plenty of crushes, plenty of initial sparks, but I'm still not getting asked out.

Obviously it's time to change my MO again, but I haven't yet figured out what I should be doing.

[53. BDB said the following at 10:06 PM on Nov 3:]

53

Um...#13 - how old are you?

I mean, are you 16? Or 36? The answer is different for different settings.

Waiting a year to finish college, for example, would not be something I'd consider to be a red flag. Heck, you can plan the wedding at the same time as graduation so all the families can travel at the same time. Happens all the time.

I'd be more concerned if he was over 30. Unless he's unemployed due to the economy and is secretly hoping to be in a better financial position - able to by a nicer ring for example.

I will say that private movie-cuddling combined with no public displays of affection sounds backwards for belivers, and rather risky. If someone is following a hands off, clothes on rule, it's more important to do it in private.

My opinion is that this is the time to sit down alone with your mentor and communicate your fears. If they've noticed things and chosen not to say anything, you're going to them my confirm their concerns. On the other hand, they may be honest with you and suggest modifying your behavior, so be open to that, too.

[54. Lenice said the following at 1:46 AM on Nov 4:]

54

I have to agree with Adam (8). I read this time it posted and I most definitely had an overly emotional, harsh response to the post because of how it came across. It was discouraging to me and it seems like it is not necessarily intended as an aid to anyone; it just offers more confusion and unrest.

[55. Last One Home said the following at 8:31 AM on Nov 4:]

55

Thanks for a lot of good opinions to think on! I will write more to clarify later after I think about it a bit!

[56. Loris said the following at 8:33 AM on Nov 4:]

56

Nate #47, you mentioned that you feel you have yet to give all of yourself to a woman. I'm rabbit-trailing here, but how can a woman know when she really has her husband's full feelings? As I'm sure you've found out, rings and a shared life don't necessarily mean emotional intimacy.

I always wonder whether I really "have" my husband. I think we're fine, then he says something that makes me cold sweat. It's probably just my insecurity. He's a good guy. However, I was a rebound for him and we married too quickly. Yes, we were a good match intellectually, and we each have skills the other doesn't. Still, I'm always afraid that our lack of common ground makes it hard for him to fully engage with me, even though he knows I'll try to understand. I don't get in his way if he wants to do something, unless it's monumentally stupid, and I'll usually join him if what he's doing is new to me. Like I said, it's probably just me.

[57. BDB said the following at 10:39 AM on Nov 4:]

57

Oh, Loris (#56) kind of went of on a tangent I was thinking about.

Dr. Dobson wrote a book titled, Emotions: Can You Trust Them?

What Loris describes is not at all unusual. At least based on the sermons I hear at men's BBQs and such. It seems that few men continue to communicate their "feelings" as much as their wives would like.

Americas live in a media environment, particularly with music, where people are taught that when they meet "the one," they will be overwhelmed by their feelings.

What if that never happens?

From what I've read in biographies - particularly those WWII-era ones where people got married within days of meeting someone - people didn't always expect to be instantly overwhelmed by their feelings. In other words, they weren't waiting for those feelings before moving forward.

[58. BDB said the following at 10:46 AM on Nov 4:]

58

Didn't finish my thought...

There's a discussion going on elsewhere about whether or not the Bible commands marriage. OK, so how many women would like a man to approach her by saying, "Well, I don't have any feelings for you, but the Bible commands marriage, so how about it?"

Think of it this way, can you tell someone to "man up" and have overwhelming feelings for someone specific?

[59. Freddie said the following at 1:22 PM on Nov 4:]

59

I used to have satisfying relationships with my single friends, but now I'm almost in the opposite situation. Those single friends are now married and most of them have kids, so I feel kind of left out - they tend to discuss diapers and going to the park. So now, more than ever, I want to get married myself, because I think it would make it easier to reconnect to them. Not to mention the other advantages of being married, of course...

[60. Nate said the following at 4:13 PM on Nov 4:]

60

Hi Loris (56):

That is a tough call. I will be very careful as I touch on it, as, honestly, it's a conversation you should be having with your husband. If there are problems communicating by simply conversing about such things, I'd be starting there as far as developing further intimacy.

Not knowing all of the details of your situation, I'll start by saying it isn't "just you". By no means. Frankly, in the early years of marriage, I think any spouse can sometimes feel that way as you really get to know each other and learn each other through and through. Sounds like the both of you may need to spend more time together, focused on God and then getting to know each other and strengthen that bond.

I come from a 6 year marriage that turned out to be a total sham and collection of lies, which was ultimately ended by her when she pursued her new dude. Communication was always an issue, and we never were really intimate as a couple. Understand it takes two to do that, but if neither tries...trouble is brewing like a slow leak in a tire. And based on what you've said, I can see some leaks, (especially since you mentioned it was a rebound relationship of sorts).

I'm certainly no counselor, nor do I know your details. But if it was me (and it was me once), I would be sharing some of this with my spouse and taking some kind of positive action to resolve it together, (which I didn't do). There are so many resources on FotF to help with that. Heck, without Boundless, I don't know where the heck I'd be.

Above all, God wants your marriage to work, and to be glorified though a strong marriage of 2 fallen people. Talk to Him about it if no one else. I promise to talk to Him about it tonight.

But, please do something. From what you have said, it will be disastrous to let it go and do nothing. God bless.

Respectfully,

--NMM

[61. Julie said the following at 4:51 PM on Nov 4:]

61

Maybe the difference between this generation and the ones before us has to do with the purpose of spending time with the opposite sex. If you are expecting to get married in your early 20s, perhaps you look at the people around you much differently than if you expect to wait for years (until you're done with school and/or financially set and/or find your soul mate and/or are overwhelmed with chemistry. Even if the former group dated many people, it was with the purpose of finding a spouse.

I think many people perceive too much choice these days-not only are there the single people around you, but the single people online, and those you may meet in the future (because many people feel no rush). Contrast this with life in a tribe or small village, where you'd be happy just to find one or two people of the opposite sex who were available for marriage.

[62. Carol said the following at 9:27 PM on Nov 4:]

62

Something BDB said struck a chord with me. In a husband, I am looking for someone who is a faithful Christian. But that's not all. I'm also looking for someone I can talk to about the things I think about: politics, books, and science. For some reason, I tend to find one or the other. Either that, or the one who has both isn't interested in me. I've been thinking lately if I should settle for just the first (since I couldn't settle for just the second). But I don't think I can do it. I think I'd rather be single than have someone who wasn't interested in those things.

Do other men fill those roles for me? Definitely my father does, and perhaps one or two other men. Still, I don't think I have any "buddy" relationships that reduce my desire for a husband.

[63. BDB said the following at 12:29 PM on Nov 5:]

63

Carol (#62) wrote:

>>I've been thinking lately if I should settle for just the first (since I couldn't settle for just the second). But I don't think I can do it. I think I'd rather be single than have someone who wasn't interested in those things.<<

And if nothing else, that makes it seem better to delay the decision while focusing on financial stability. Maybe if you wait you'll run into someone who can do it or at least is willing to try and learn.

There are lots of women who want to be married and moms. But they've never developed their intellect in a way that would allow them to be a help-meet to a man who is a knowledge worker. They prepare to be a mom, but have done nothing to prepare themselves to support their husband in the stresses and challenges he faces at work.

This was MUCH easier during an agricultural time. A farm-wife worked her tail off, whether taking care of animals, growing a garden, canning food, etc. etc. etc. My grandmother worked with her widowed aunt to run the farm, the two of them.

Many men who are successful in management jobs credit their wives with providing valuable perspective and insight into people and decisions on how to approach problems. But alas, many women have no interest in talking about "work," they want to talk about kids.

But some people realize they need to take an interest in their spouse's work. One of the stories my grandparents tell is how my grandfather would sneak my grandmother into his college classes. She was a nurse and took interest in what he was learning. They got caught one day in a speech class when the professor asked everyone to come on stage and look down someone's throat to see the parts that produced speech sounds.

My grandmother, the nursing student, was the only one who correctly identified everything. Causing the professor to exclaim, "Excellent! Who are you?"

Umm....well, here's the deal...

[64. Last One Home said the following at 12:46 PM on Nov 5:]

64

BDB and Kelly, etc... :)

I'm 23 and in my first semester of graduate school, he is the same age, but has paid his way through college with cash and has no other financial support, so the going has been slow. His main concern IS finishing school before getting married, but he also knows that he has 3ish years left and that much time is too long for us to wait. I think that is the big issue!

I probably made him sound like a jerk-- he is a good man, wise with his money, cautious with his choices.
and, surprise, I'm compulsive and jump into things.

He was extremly intentional in getting to know me and asking to court, he has been very attentive and intentional as we've been courting, and even though he SAYS there are certain things he "doesn't have to do" because he isn't married, he does usually does them anyway (like checking in with me) it's really kind of silly.
(lol he always brings them up when he sees OTHER women trying to control their boyfriends or husbands, but that's the only situation in which he really talks about it).

He set up our mentoring,and he is always the one to discuss our future--and I don't have doubts that he wants to marry me. He talks about our future kids and growing old together all the time, involves me in all his family functions, and has even asked me to think about how we need to save money and find a house for us all when my mom starts needing care. He is not possessive at all, but I can't seem to spend a day alone-- he wants me with him if at all possible (and I don't mind a bit, he is a blast and really interesting to talk to).

He's invested--he just seems mighty comfortable with how things are now. and maybe I am rushing!

Realistically I know we are BOTH struggling with not being sexually involved/kissing, it's not just me. But to him, the line after which he "gets in trouble" IS kissing, so maybe he legitimately feels like he is doing okay since we are not doing that???

I feel lame because I apparently don't have a trouble line... He's there and I'm ready: that's about all it takes! As bad as that may sound coming from a girl....

[65. BDB said the following at 1:17 PM on Nov 5:]

65

Last One Home (#64) wrote:

>>His main concern IS finishing school before getting married, but he also knows that he has 3ish years left and that much time is too long for us to wait. I think that is the big issue!<<

OK, I had six close friends who all agreed in college that one should not get married until finishing graduate school.

What I didn't realize until years later is that those six people became three couples, marrying people they met in college. They waited until after finishing grad school, in some cases they were separated in different cities while in school.

So, the intellectual way to approach this is do a budget and literally do the math to see if it's even possible to be in school while married. Some school financial aid rules make this quite difficult. But for many schools this isn't a problem with graduate students. Unless there's some sort of things where parents will withdraw their school support if their child marries before finishing.

That said, in previous generations, people put each other through school and lived quite happily in poverty until they graduated. Hey, I know missionaries who are essentially living with poverty income but are happy families. It definitely can be done.

But I almost never hear women these days even consider the concept of putting their husband through school. Sometimes they've heard stories about women who were abandonded by their husbands after they became doctors or some other story. I've heard just as many stories of people who did just fine.

The advantage of working out an actual budget is you know what your situation is. If the math works out better because "two can live as cheaply as one," it might alleviate his concerns. If it's financially impossible, it might help you with waiting. Either way, it gives you something more specific to pray about.

[66. k. said the following at 1:35 PM on Nov 5:]

66

Carol 62 - No one person will meet all our needs. I don't share all my husband's interests, and vice versa. Maybe you won't meet someone who's faithful AND into politics, books, and science. But if you meet a wonderful man who's faithful and loves politics and books, but is bored by science, you might consider that there are other people you can discuss string theory with. And it won't be "settling," either. :)

[67. Loris said the following at 1:40 PM on Nov 5:]

67

Nate #60, It really could just be that we're not so far into the marriage that it fits like favorite jeans, etc. We're 4 years in.

Taking a good, hard look at myself, I'm positive some of the insecurity on my part comes from knowing I'm a wallflower who married the popular guy. Sure, I'm tall and have a beautiful face, and I'm just as smart as he is in different areas, but I never *feel* worthy because I don't excel in the same areas he does. He gets 10x the attention I do, whether from friends or strangers. If anybody watches Family Guy, think of a sanctified Quagmire. Loud, flirty, funny...yeah. He told me several years ago when he was frustrated with me that some of his former coworkers (large city, one of the vanity capitals in the States) didn't get what he saw in me. On my worst days, I don't either. That saying always comes back when I'm frustrated with him, and he's frustrated with me, and it seems to be a fundamental personality clash. He's always ready to reassure me that I'm good for him, but how much reassuring would be enough to make me believe it? So you can see why I would think it's just me.

It's even harder because the traits that would be most interesting to him are also the traits needed to succeed in my industry. I'm learning slowly, and willing to learn more, but I'm nearly 100% sure I'm about to be laid off. So great, I can't connect with my husband on his level, and I don't have any valuable job skills either. /pity party.

[68. Benjamin said the following at 1:54 PM on Nov 5:]

68

"lol he always brings them up when he sees OTHER women trying to control their boyfriends or husbands, but that's the only situation in which he really talks about it"

That is the approach many guys take to addressing that issue because it is so sensitive for many women. But let me state a near-universal truth - guys hate it when women treat his time as if it by rights belongs to her, the petty, selfish jealousy and passive-agressive anger over spending his time in a way that she would not choose. This has come up almost without exception in every friend's relationship I have seen.

[69. BDB said the following at 2:32 PM on Nov 5:]

69

Loris (#67) wrote:

>>So great, I can't connect with my husband on his level, and I don't have any valuable job skills either. /pity party.<<

Does your church have a marriage retreat, or have you heard of Marriage Encounter? Sometimes these events provide a good structure to discuss hard things and work through them.

Here's a random story...

When my grandparents were first married 70 years ago, my grandmother asked my grandfather how many pancakes he wanted. He said 21. She said, are you SURE? He said yes. She said, OK....

And made him 21 plate-sized pancakes.

My grandfather's mom made 2-inch pancakes. That's what he was expecting.

He made it through about 3 of the plate-sized pancakes and had to apologize.

Now, the fact that I know this story is evidence that they learned to laugh about the miscommunication. I'm sure at the moment my grandmother thought he was either being stupid or wasting her time. It's an interesting example of "submitting" to something you know is a bad decision. But, in the end, it opened up a more discussion between them and they ended up with excellent communication.

A lot of people with good skills have been laid off in the last couple of years. A lot of companies simply don't have the work to keep people busy. It is not a final statement on someone's worth by any means. It is sometimes an opportunity to take a long hard look at one's skills and industry. If the industry is shrinking, don't wait to acquire training to switch to a different industry.

In the end, most people realize that a willingness to learn and grow in relation to outside events is the most important skill, not just people coming to the situation as they are. Many 20-somethings don't get this because they don't have enough life experience to understand how the world changes. Lot's of 50-somethings do get this. The best students I ever had when teaching computer skills were sales people over 50 who recognized their their world was changing, and they HAD TO LEARN to succeed in their job. They came to me and said, "Please teach me, but be patient, I'm new!"

This is a round about way of saying that you've identified a skill set I recognize as being important, even if your husband's buddies don't. They may not recognize it until they watch people go through a long layoff and realize that some people give up and blame everyone else; and some people say, "Hmmm...I need a game changer," and set about the task of working the problem.

[70. Carol said the following at 3:27 PM on Nov 5:]

70

To k (#66). I didn't really mean he had to be interested in all three. What I mean is I would like him to have enough background knowledge to discuss them. I get frustrated with men who declare that they never read, or who haven't a clue how our government works. (It would probably help if I lived in an area with more college graduates.)

[71. em said the following at 3:48 PM on Nov 5:]

71

love the comments here - I'm one of those who truly believes that men and women should be friends, so I really don't buy this theory. Even once we are married and, hopefully, have an opposite gendered best friend, we still need both male and female friends in our wider circle of relationships. It's healthy.

Paul (#21) - do go deeper with your gal friends. You aren't going to get to know them if you aren't willing to be a real friend - not just a guy "hang out" pal. I know it's well intended (guarding the girl's heart, etc) but guys who maintain surface-only relationships w/ women annoy the heck out of me because they refuse to engage me on any meaningful level (intellectually, emotionally, spiritually). That makes me feel subhuman - or at least sub-adult. I feel like being female makes me unworthy of real friendship w/ Christian brothers and that deeply saddens me because this ought not be in the body of Christ.

And, BDB, I like your family stories.

[72. Loris said the following at 4:41 PM on Nov 5:]

72

BDB, I'm 25. How did you know? Haha.

Seriously, the impending layoff is really hurting because I was already stretching myself to work in engineering. I'm an English/Art/Music person and technology makes my brain hurt so badly, but I recognize I need to be competent in it to survive in this world. I'd been so proud of branching out of my element and doing well. Everyone likes me and I work fast.

I'm currently working as a Technical Writer for a DoD engineering contractor. The really galling thing is I'd been promised a better entry level job, Technical Writer I, two years ago. I currently have the title of Admin I. *sigh* I was certain I was going to get the title change and big raise that goes with it this year. Instead, I got a 3.9% cost of living raise and a "You might want to start looking." I find it hard to believe that a company so big it needs to hire 300 new people a year has no documents for a Junior Tech writer. This is a really bad time to be young. I'm competing against people with 25 years of experience and there's no contest. I'm scared stupid, and the uncertainty is starting to infect other aspects of my life.

[73. BDB said the following at 5:15 PM on Nov 5:]

73

Carol (#70) wrote:

>>I get frustrated with men who declare that they never read, or who haven't a clue how our government works. <<

No kidding! How do these people ever learn to make ideas their servant instead of their master?

However, I try to remind myself that I didn't really get how ideas are powerful until graduate school, when an economic history professor was able to stitch together how technological ideas resulted in societal change.

We didn't have knights in shining armor before the invention of the stirrup, for example...and that technological invention gave rise to the military-agricultural complex we call Feudalism in the middle ages in Europe.

But...these are all things that can be learned. There's a few women I know who are great Christians who never read. But after a year or so of conversations, they realize that there's things that can be learned from books.

(I kinda blame state colleges that don't seem to attract passionate, idea-driven professors who like to teach, but that's another discussion...)

[74. BDB said the following at 5:23 PM on Nov 5:]

74

Loris (#72) wrote:

>>I'm an English/Art/Music person and technology makes my brain hurt so badly, but I recognize I need to be competent in it to survive in this world.<<

Hmmm...yes, I was just thinking that same thing about an Intermediate Accounting class I'm taking. When am I EVER going to need to calculate the present value of leasing a 757 aircraft? No fun at all...

But, you're right, engineering types need people who can write for them. I know someone who did her engineering degree and now edits books. Turns out she's good at it because she has a personality that works well with a certain famous author who is...um...difficult to work with. The famous person's lawyer and agent both really like her as an editor, and she gets along with the talent better than previous editors, so has been asked for to edit a few books now.

I wonder if there are Internet companies who need people to write stuff. They might even allow you to work out of your home. They seem to have a lot of software engineers. I'm sure they'd appreciate someone who has learned enough engineering to be comfortable talking with engineers.

[75. Kelly-1 said the following at 6:40 PM on Nov 5:]

75

64. Last One Home said :

" But to him, the line after which he "gets in trouble" IS kissing"

I learned this the hard way through a couple of relationships. Women in general can quite happily kiss for a while and then put on the brakes. It's no trouble at all to stop; we've enjoyed the closeness but have no intention of it going further.

From what I've been told, for the majority of men, a kiss is a 'promise' that something more is going to happen. And that it's extremely difficult for them to stop. (So it can spiral into a cajoling/begging/angry scenario when you want to stop and he doesn't.)

The moral of the story?

If you kiss him, he'll expect to go all the way.

Unless, of course, you have a very frank discussion up front about dating expectations, and this only happens with the type of gentleman that you would find reading Boundless. It's all too rare in the world. :(

[76. Katharine said the following at 9:12 PM on Nov 5:]

76

Loris,

From personal experience: I strongly, strongly recommend the book Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs. His basic premise is that instead of worrying about where you stand in your relationship or whether your husband is willing to meet your needs, focus on meeting HIS needs. If your husband is at all good-willed, he will respond positively to your attempts to bless him.

Eggerichs goes on to outline some basic needs that men and women have (that are quite different!). Before anyone jumps on me that that's "lumping everyone together," yes, it is. But a *general* idea of the needs and perspectives of *most* guys is a much better starting place than nothing at all!

It was an EXTREMELY eye-opening book for me and has strengthened my relationship with my fiance quite a bit. I understand him better when he gets frustrated with me for something I didn't realize I did, and have also begun to see the ways in which he *does* choose to serve me but I didn't recognize before (since I speak "girl" and he speaks "guy")! In general we have less conflict and more common ground than before.

[77. Hunter W said the following at 10:12 PM on Nov 5:]

77

Last One (#64)

One of the core values of a man is to be a provider for his wife and children. And when I say core I mean this is part of our DNA. Work existed before the fall - God told Adam to work the garden and tend to the animals. It has been there since the beginning. My guess is your beau doesn't feel like he can provide for you in a Godly/Manly way while in school. My advice: put up with it and encourage him every way you can or cut bait now. If you communicate to him the frustration you've communicated on here it will wear on him and eventually wound him and he'll likely push you away. You'll make him feel like a failure at being a man. He sounds like a great guy - figure it out now. What's more important to you - being married to THIS man? Or being married?

Loris (#67)

I sounds like you've got a lot of hurt going on. Have you ever seen a counselor? I just went through counseling where I went by the session and not by the hour. Sometimes I'd be there for 3 or 4 hours. It was AMAZING. We could peel away the layers and really get at the heart of the issue in the moment while the process was going on. I was in counseling several years ago and found it pretty useless (hence why I went back recently). This time around was good and I was able to stab at the heart of the issue and really take time to explore those hurts and figure out how to repair them. I think one-on-one counseling (without your husband there) might do your marriage well.

I once heard a story/parable about a wealthy man and his wife. He was one of the riches men in area and everyone expected him to have his choice of brides. He chose a woman who "had below average looks and a below average pedigree". But the rich man saw something in this woman that he adored so he sought permission to marry her. Everyone in their village thought this was scandalous and thought the bride price would be a pittance. However, he delivered 10 cows and 1 bull for the dowry - the largest price ever paid. Suddenly everyone looked at this woman differently - who was this woman that would command such a high price? The rich man paid what he thought she was worth. Your husband sees you as being worth the highest bride price ever paid. It sounds like you don't see yourself that way - why?

[78. BDB said the following at 10:43 PM on Nov 5:]

78

Recently I attended a scholarship recognition for some first-year college students who were recently emancipated from the foster-care system. What that basically means is that they turned 18 and graduated from high school, so they are own their own.

I mean totally, completely, on their own. Their parents are not in the picture, whether due to substance abuse or other child abuse and neglect. They are literally, facing the world alone at 18.

I noticed something interesting about how they interact with older adults: they force themselves to approach them and ask questions. When they realize that someone is willing to share what they know - such as about choosing a major in college, they are extremely attentive listeners.

I came to realize that these scholarship kids stayed out of trouble by making a decision, they are NOT going to make the mistakes their parents made that got them into this situation. Which means they make an effort to learn from others. They are essentially piecing together a theory of how life should work alone. I was amazed at how many of them had chosen to major in sociology. It seems that this is because the first person to really take an interest in their life was their case manager/social worker, who explained how THEY became a social worker. So they arrive at college with an idea of what to do next.

In a larger sense, I think that some of this consumer mentality in relationships is a symptom of the high divorce rate. People know they can't follow in their parent's footsteps because it didn't work, and they know their parents were theoretically in love enough to get married. But to avoid running into the same problems, they're trying to figure out a different way of doing things.

Once they feel they've figured out a range of what is a good thing, then they may be confident enough to decide what type of person to pursue, or to allow to pursue them.

[79. Mike said the following at 7:30 AM on Nov 6:]

79

Sigh. I grow so bored with the untrue stereotype that men aren't interested in long-term relationships or marriage because they get all their needs met without commitment.

The opposite is the truth. In repeated surveys, it's the MEN who are interested in marriage, moreso than the women. For example, In an analysis of 1,200 personal ads in 1988, sociologist Theresa Montini found that most were placed by thirty-five-year-old heterosexual men and the vast majority "wanted a long-term relationship". When Great Expectations, the nation's largest dating service [at the time], surveyed its members in 1988, it found that 93 percent of the men wanted, within one year, to have either "a commitment with one person" or marriage. Only 7 percent of the men said they were seeking "lots of dates with different people."

I've observed the same thing myself on the dating sites today. Take a look at ChristianCafe.com. The vast majority of the women have as their relationship goals things like "Just Curious", "Hoping to Start a Relationship", "Open to Possibilities", or "Wherever God Leads". Many more of the men choose "Marriage Minded" than the women. And in my sampling of the women's comments, many will say things like, "I'm looking for someone who can be friends first, and then we'll see where it leads." BARF!

So please stop slamming the men for "consumerism" or a lack of intentionality. It doesn't line up with the facts.

Just my personal ax to grind.

[80. Tami said the following at 9:48 AM on Nov 6:]

80

Hi Mike (79) -- I too agree that men too often get hammered with the "they don't want a relationship" stick, and that it's quite frequently an untrue and unfair assumption. However, a couple of things:

1. The Montini survey is, now, 20 years old. There are people who became adults, since the survey was conducted, who grew up in a completely different environment with different assumptions about marriage and divorce. I wonder what the results would be now, if she updated her research by surveying this new generation.

2. Speaking as a woman, I think that the reason women put "Just Curious", "Hoping to Start a Relationship", "Open to Possibilities", or "Wherever God Leads" -- for the most part -- is that they don't want to scare guys off; whereas, if a guy puts "Marriage Minded," it's a *draw* for Christian women. The same for the comments about being friends first. I acknowledge that this is VERY annoying to men. However, in an online environment (and anyone can surf Christian Cafe, as it's not a private service), I (personally) would be nervous about saying "Yes I want marriage!" because you have no idea about who's contacting you.

[81. Loris said the following at 10:05 AM on Nov 6:]

81

Hunter W., BDB, Katherine, Thanks for the advice and kind words. I'm sorry to be spilling everywhere, but I'm very discouraged.

About the not-connecting thing, my husband just came back last night from visiting friends. He had time off, I didn't. He told me he talked a long time with an older woman, the mother of a peer. She said she had observed the dynamic of our relationship and advised us not to have children until we were acting more like lovers and less like lazy master and slaving housekeeper. Ouch. If it's that obvious to people we don't see often, how bad must it be? As far as counseling goes, we've never had counseling together. Our engagement was entirely long-distance. I met with my pastor for 8 weeks. He got one breakfast with his pastor. The gist of that conversation was the pastor telling Mr. Loris to be considerate in bed. Of all the things he could have said, that was probably the least helpful.

And no, Hunter W, I don't think much of myself. I don't see why I should. I'm not that big a deal. If I had never existed, something or someone else would have happened in my husband's life that would have been different, but probably just fine. I've already taken a huge beating by life circumstances when I was a teen that was beyond demoralizing. I'm tired of having to train my whimsical, non-linear brain to process directly and logically because if I don't, and I get asked how I came to X conclusion (which happens often), my explanation will sound insane, even if my conclusion is correct. I'm tired of being talented in areas that nobody around me values, cooking excepted. It's incredibly frustrating to have great homemaking skills, but little marketable. I could give piano lessons, do English tutoring, and sew and tailor for petty cash, but in a bad recession those things are luxuries. I'm an old soul, plus I've had some very hard things happen to my family that matured me rapidly. I feel like I'm 40. My husband's younger than I am, and I'm acutely aware that I'm no fun. I've loosened up a lot since moving out of my parents' household, where the hard things are yet ongoing, but I'm still old and no fun. So with all of those aspects accurate, I don't understand why I shouldn't be hard on myself. The only good thing about me is that I'm made in God's image. It's only honest, imo, to admit that my particular configuration of the Image is pretty banged up and has some strange functions.

[82. Jeremiah said the following at 10:52 AM on Nov 6:]

82

Tami (#80): "I (personally) would be nervous about saying "Yes I want marriage!" because you have no idea about who's contacting you."

Ugh... (...banging my head against the door as I type.)

[83. BDB said the following at 10:59 AM on Nov 6:]

83

Hunter W (#77) is referring to the legend of Johnny Lingo.

[84. Jo said the following at 11:26 AM on Nov 6:]

84

Oh Loris. You do sound really discouraged.

"The only good thing about me is that I'm made in God's image. It's only honest, imo, to admit that my particular configuration of the Image is pretty banged up and has some strange functions."

*Wry smile* Those things are true of all of us. Really, they are. Some of us have been through more damaging things - and it sounds like you've had some really difficult stuff to get through - but all of us are banged up with strange functions, and all of us are still loved and accepted by the one person who knows exactly what we should have looked like and how far we fall short. Even when it's damaged, His image is still beautiful.

I don't know you, so anything I say will sound like empty words probably, but I really would encourage you to really talk to your husband about this stuff and look into some kind of counselling together.

And do not feel like you're failing just because you're having problems in your relationship. You're two damaged, banged up people, and connecting and relating with one another is going to be tough at times. You're going to annoy and upset each other and you're going to find it hard to love each other sometimes too. No couple is immune to that. I'm not an expert on marriage, but you only need to observe people in general to know that living with another human being is never going to be an easy ride all the time.

I'm really sorry you're feeling so down on yourself, please do talk to someone. You're so loved, and so precious to God - and I'm guessing to your husband too. I'll be praying for you both.

[85. BDB said the following at 11:34 AM on Nov 6:]

85

Loris (#81) wrote:

>>Our engagement was entirely long-distance.<<

OK - that makes sense.

I have friends who spent a significant amount of time apart before getting married. When they were back in the same town again it was definitely an adjustment.

Does your church have a newlyweds class or small group of some kind? They're very handy. Usually they're for couples who've been married less than 5 years because they're going through similar adjustments.

Some friends of mine run the one at my church. Adjustments are quite common, but different for everyone.

The Eggrich's book on Love and Respect is a good starting point for conversation. They also have a web page. Of course, FOTF has a ton of stuff for married people, too.

[86. Sarah P. said the following at 12:22 PM on Nov 6:]

86

Loris (#81) said: And no, Hunter W, I don't think much of myself. I don't see why I should. I'm not that big a deal.

Loris, that is simply not true. You are a huge deal, because God wove you in your mother's womb, died for you, and called you to be His own. You are worth just as much in God's sight as your charismatic husband. God cherishes your artistic gifts. You only have to look at a sunrise or sunset to know that.

Do you believe that God loves you? To God, you have never been a "rebound" relationship. He chose you personally. And you don't have to be your husband for him to love you! If God wanted you to be your husband, He would have made you him!

God bless.

[87. Loris said the following at 10:21 AM on Nov 7:]

87

Please pray for me. I've contacted our pastor about counseling. Rough times ahead for sure. Neither of us is going anywhere, and neither of us has cheated or abused the other, but he has hurt me in pretty much every other way. No way forward but through the mess.

[88. Loris said the following at 7:31 AM on Nov 9:]

88

Sorry for calling out the cavalry, folks. I do still need prayer, but the weekend troubles turned out to be much less than initially advertised. After much discussion and distress, we've agreed that counseling is still a good idea that we'll pursue, but there's really no need to panic.

[89. Nate said the following at 9:24 AM on Nov 9:]

89

Loris (87):

Trust me, I have been. The fact you guys are seeking help is a great step in the right direction. Commitment + God = healed relationships.

Don't ever give up.

--NMM

[90. Andrea-Elena said the following at 10:55 AM on Nov 9:]

90

Nate,

If one could "radiate" Christ through blog comments, you just did. I like how you encouraged our sister in Christ. You demonstrate that just because one has been through the mess and has come out of it pretty banged up, all hope is not lost -- there still is much hope. You show that God does redeem the broken pieces. (Reminds me of Selah's song "Unredeemed" from their new album.)

Anyway, just wanted to know that you impressed me with a few sentences. Thanks for being part of the family here!!

Loris,

I echo Nate, though I haven't walked where either of you have. Keep holding on: holding on to Jesus and to your husband. God makes ways where we cannot see one to be -- streams in the desert, bitter waters to sweet.

He knows the way you take, and He walks with you. You will come out of the mess all the shinier to reflect Christ. (See Job 23:10.)

[1. Jeffrey Whiting said the following at 4:07 PM on Nov 2:]

1

Suzanne asks: "Do these relationships hinder people, men in particular, from engaging in intentional, one-woman relationships? Does it stave off the craving for a sole companion to the point where guys lose the desire to pursue?"

I would answer in the affirmative, but immediately add that this hindrance attains specifically because it is how men have been taught to interact with women, and especially so in more intentional, conservative Christian circles.

Let's face the music: men are confused. Men are very much told - in not so many words - that pursuing women is unwelcome and that the better way to interact with them is through egalitarian, recreational social settings with the plug very much being about "getting to know them and letting things grow from there". It is understandable that people (especially women) want to be known and understood, but the kind of philosophies in vogue today among Christians often contradicts the supposed role of the man to be a pursuer.

In an older, more traditional society men and women did not usually interact with each other beyond an ephemeral level unless they were pairing off (if you're the romantic sort, think of the world of Jane Austin for instance). That is where the whole idea of calling and receiving suitors comes from: when men and women got to together it was to find a spouse. Not so today! It can mean any number of things and far from being discouraged this state of affairs is positively welcomed. In fact, the historical orientation of social roles I've just outlined is positively frowned upon; we are, as men, told to "get to know women", "not treat them as objects", and other such bromides that although well intentioned they may be stifle the instinct of men and their attractions to women.

[2. rushncap said the following at 4:08 PM on Nov 2:]

2

Well, in case of committed Christians it's rather simple: sex. For those of us who have no qualms about pre-marital sex it's harder. That's where "love" comes in.

[3. BDB said the following at 4:24 PM on Nov 2:]

3

Well, yes, that can be a dilemma. If someone is good at six things, and only meets women who share two of those interests, he could easily wonder why there aren't any women like him who are interested in all six of them.

C.S. Lewis has a very interesting discussion of this in The Four Loves chapter on "Friendship."

One traditional method of solving this is dividing up the worlds of men and women. As some people have no doubt read elsewhere on Boundless, there are some advocates of guys spending time "with their buddies." But not all men have the same interests. Some want to watch sports, some hunt, some play poker each week, some read classical literature, some go hiking. So, what happens is men participate in activities their wives don't share.

Another approach is to learn new things. I know a number of couples who talk about how their spouse introduced them to new ideas and activities they never would have tried otherwise. It's not necessary to match up on everything at the beginning if you're willing to grow.

But some people refuse growth opportunities. I've been surprised by the women I've met who don't read anything they don't have to. They'll do the reading for college classes, not not anything beyond that. And then they complain that they're not growing spiritually. Well, at some point people do need to take some responsibility for their own learning and growth.

I've known other women who were great fun discussing politics with. And yet, under no circumstances were they willing to volunteer in a church setting, let alone go on a mission trip or do outreach to the poor. But they were really good at going to the bar with "the girlz" to drink fruity beverages.

On the other hand, I know lots of women who volunteer at church who have zero interest in politics.

What to do, what to do.

As Suzanne has written about herself, the best way to come to a decision is probably to decide what one's calling from God is, and look for someone who shares that - and be willing to not share the other items. I think Suzanne found four areas of commonality, right? Children's ministry, running, improv and coffee. What if you'd only had one of those four?

[4. Emily said the following at 4:43 PM on Nov 2:]

4

I definitely don't think so. At least for me, right now, I need the male relationships. I need them to learn how to relate to men, and to understand how to best help a man grow to be more godly.

Beyond that, like you said - it staves off the loneliness. That being said, it doesn't do it very well. Every day I must battle myself to bring it to God and pray that He will fulfill my aching heart.

Perhaps for some, it fulfills this role, but seeing how much we talk about finding our husbands/wives (and how much we'll still need our friendships even after that happens), I feel like it's not really a problem.

[5. Tami said the following at 4:54 PM on Nov 2:]

5

It's one thing to sincerely evaluate whether or not we are in sync with another person, but another to constantly measure that person to someone(s) else. If we simply view X as "Not Y," then we don't appreciate X for all he is.

Perhaps we don't allow people the chance to be themselves, rather than being exactly like a certain aspect of someone else we've known.

I think there's a certain expectation that we'll find someone who has EVERYTHING, and to evaluate people based on whether New Guy is as funny as John, AND as intelligent as Joe, AND as spiritually deep as James. If New Guy fails on any count, well, it's just not meant to be because we won't "settle" for anything less than what we've already experienced -- which is also a bit unfair, because you're handpicking what made John, James, and Joe special and weighing it against what New Guy *doesn't* have (versus what he *does*). Sometimes we need to hit "reset" and gain new eyes for the person who's in front of us *at that moment.*

[6. Chris said the following at 5:12 PM on Nov 2:]

6

I think you girls are overthinking it; us guys really aren't that complicated. Sure I have friendships with female friends, but it doesn't take the place of a relationship.

It all comes down to us guys taking the initiative and being intentional. And this is something we have to learn and grow into - it doesn't just happen. I can see it in myself...I've been out of college for a few years now and I can see that when I was in college, I didn't have a grasp on this concept enough. I used to keep sending out feelers to girls, so that if I asked her, I would know if I was going to get rejected or not. As I've matured as a guy, a person, and as a Christian, I now understand why I kept getting rejected and I'm making attempts to be more intentional.

Just keep praying for us guys as we develop and grow into the guy God has planned for you. We want you too, but we've gotta learn how to be intentional.

[7. Jeremiah said the following at 5:22 PM on Nov 2:]

7

I don’t know the answer to this question either. However, I do not think that taking away certain types of friendships from the equation will accomplish the desired result either. Would someone settle for less than the ideal if they are not getting their basic needs met? That’s kind of like asking if a staving person would settle for crackers instead of a stake. Of course they would… initially... But once they are fed, then the crackers stop sounding so appetizing and the person starts looking around for something else.

No, I think that we just need to recognize the fact that relationships are a lot more complicated than several generations ago, and that dating relationships must compete with a lot of other demands for our time (including other friendships). Plus, young people now have an almost unlimited supply of potential social circles, so it easy to imagine that the real “all in one super wife” is just around the next corner.

Overall, I think that trying to limit friendships between Christian men and women would backfire. Instead, we need to help educate people on what “items” on their lists are important and which ones are not.

Lastly, and here is the potentially controversial one, I think that we need to tell women AND men that they can do a better job of becoming “all in one superwife” or the “all in one super husband”. It’s not too early to start practicing sacrificial relationships and attempt to do a better job or understanding what matters to the opposite gender and striving to be that person.

Honestly, I think that women get frustrated by the notion of the "all in one superwife" becuase in their minds it entails a whole bunch of stuff that a lot of guys don't want and don't care about. My list has four items only. ;)

[8. Adam said the following at 5:30 PM on Nov 2:]

8

Suzanne,

I think there is a lot of really sloppy thinking going on in this. First of all, I think we have to define what we mean by "consumer relationships." Try isolating anyone; try even isolating a married couple from a society, and you will find problems start to creep in. Also, you will find that, in any relationship with those to whom you are not married, you will like different people for different reasons. There really needs to be more care in how you are defining these things, because the end result of this kind of thinking is the complete social abandonment of single men by single women. I don't see any other solution to what you are saying, so long as this remains so ambiguously defined.

Second, I think I would challenge the idea of marriage as a "need." Yes, I am aware of Genesis 2:18. The problem with the usage of that passage is that, because of the woman's sin, she can no longer function to solve the problem of Genesis 2:18. Now, there will be strife in the relationship [Genesis 3:16]. Keep in mind, Eve was created as a helper for Adam in order to solve his problem of aloneness. However, do we find woman acting as a helper in Genesis 3? No, of course not. Hence, I would argue that the only way this desire can be fulfilled is through what is stated in Genesis 3:15.

Also, another problem that should be brought up is the problem of how to interpret these things. For example, if someone takes out a gun, and shoots someone dead, and then says, "That's what you get for trying to kill me!," we would all think of the man as evil, especially if we know that the man he killed never hurt a housefly. However, what would happen if an examination were done on him, and it were reveal that he has schizophrenia? We would feel quite different about the whole situation. Because, as most would say, most women have a tendency to interpret things through the lens of their emotions, how will you distinguish between a women who feels that something like this is happening, and what the person is actually doing?

Finally, there is a huge assumption that marriage will fulfill the needs that these men are having. How do you know that? From what I have seen, what men and women need most is to find their ultimate delight in God. You see, because materialism has crept into our culture, we seem to think that worldly, materialistic solutions will solve things when they do not. My concern is that, if there is something inappropriate going on in the kind of scenario you describe, simply getting married will not solve the issue, because the true intimacy that they are seeking is something that no man or woman can offer.

Dr. VanGemeren has told us stories about couples who get into marriage, and then expect so much out of their spouse, that nothing their spouse ever does pleases them. Why is that? Simply because their expectations were for their spouse to fulfill a need their spouse was never designed to fulfill. The reason is because most of these "desires" that I hear especially women talk about go to the very heart of your nature, and if you are looking for a man or a woman to be able to solve those needs, you will fail badly. Those kinds of needs which I think men are trying to fill, but only by different means. If it truly is a comparison to something like the Trinity [which I have seen], then I fear that the only solution to these kinds of ultimate desires will be to find our ultimate delight and desire in God first, and then, these kinds of things will fall into place. In fact, you will be far more likely to marry, because you do not have these unrealistic expectations of your spouse.

I am not trying to say these things to be mean. I am just concerned with the lack of critical thinking that has been expressed on this topic. I have heard lots of emotion, but everything I have seen written and said about this topic is like looking into a room full of smoke. If you are going to accuse someone of something, you need to make clear and careful distinctions, and make sure that there is an avenue by which you can distinguish them. Also, the assumption of avenues of solutions needs to be more carefully developed, or otherwise, you will end up with worse problems than what you started with. That is my concern.

God Bless,
Adam

[9. Sara said the following at 5:37 PM on Nov 2:]

9

Hmm, it is an interesting theory! I used to joke that I had two best friends because they were both "best" at different things. I know when I met my husband he was able to satisfy needs that I didn't even realize I had. It is interesting... I don't think the Genesis story ever talks about Adam saying he felt alone, but God felt it was best he wasn't alone. That is similar to my situation... I didn't realize I was missing something until my husband came along.

I don't know if this "shopping cart friend syndrome" is a negative thing when it comes to finding a life partner. It wasn't for me, but I can certainly see how it could be.

[10. David Daniel said the following at 5:51 PM on Nov 2:]

10

I've been thinking a lot about this, especially in the context of being authentic. I feel we need to be more open to the people around us, more honest about our doubts and disappointments and more vulnerable. But should I do this with the opposite sex? What exactly should I keep exclusively for my future wife? I can have my "needs met" by my male friends: they make me laugh, they give me encouragement and I can have deep conversations with them. So why can't I do that with my female friends?

The times I have been intimate and open with female friends haven't put me off finding a wife. Quite the opposite. It made me want it more, almost unbearably so. But I couldn't tell you with certainty: this is the woman I should pursue.

I always remind myself of 1 Timothy 5:2 : "[treat] younger women as sisters, with absolute purity". My sister (in the usual sense) loves me and I love her. We have been open and have had our "needs met" through each other. We've hugged and held hands and encouraged each other. At one point, I felt that we held hands too often, I wanted to save that for my girlfriend and spouse. But otherwise I don't regret anything. Can't we be like that with our sisters in Christ?
Obviously, if I'm only being good friends with my female friends, something is wrong. I aim to pursue friendship to the fullest with my male friends, because I know that sexual impulses won't get in the way (for the most part). But I really hate having to restrain my desire for friendship with my sisters in Christ, for fear that it might somehow threaten my future marriage.

[11. Julie said the following at 5:54 PM on Nov 2:]

11

Hard to say---back in our parents' day, men would ask multiple women out. Dating didn't seem to be such a big deal, and it was expected you'd get to know many people. But it didn't seem to hinder most people from eventually "going steady" and getting married. I think people had more realistic expectations though and didn't have such an ideal of a "soul mate" or "super spouse." Or if they did, they didn't wait years and years to find it, and instead made compromises at earlier ages.

[12. Hunter W said the following at 5:56 PM on Nov 2:]

12

I don't think these kinds of relationships do that any more today than they did 50 years ago. Men and women have always been friends and these kinds of relationships have always existed.

Personally I think that one part of the problem is that Christians have over-spiritualized dating. The Church and other outlets, like Boundless and the book industry, tell us there are these rules we have to follow in dating. The problem is that everyone has different rules by which he or she wants to play.

Last week a reader posted a comment saying she rejected a guy she liked because he didn't persue her the precise way she thought she should be persued and she was now second guessing herself. In my experience, this is VERY common among women - and it confuses and confounds many guys to the point of non-action. They're told that stuff should go a certain way and when it doesn't they cut-and-run. You can even see the duplicity of statements left on the Boundless blog. If there are issues of character then turn the other way. If he just didn't do something the way you thought he should but you know his heart is good, stick around.

I think a second major sticking point in this is the lack of spiritual mentors for the post-college crowd, and for men in particular. I live in a city of 350,000+. I know over 200 Christians singles in their 20s and 30s (post college) who are struggling to find a church group with whom they can gather. Most of the churches have dropped this ministry or tried to combine a college-and-career group. I tried to get one started at my church and received very little support. In the 9 months I lead the group the pastor charged with overseeing the group never showed up... not even once. This lack of support for the post-college crowd (or The Forgotten Generation of the Church as I call it) trickles down and is modeled by the Church as a whole, IMHO. Therefore, a generation of men that grew up with no father or part-time fathers are now trying to figure out life on their own.

[13. Last One Home's Not Really Home said the following at 6:21 PM on Nov 2:]

13

Okay, I have a question and I need some opinions and help!!

What does one do when a man is intentionally pursuing (you are courting and know you both desire to get married) but he is wanting to wait on marriage for awhile?

My boyfriend is wonderful, we have a fantastic time together, we have been in mentorship with an older married couple since we started dating, it's been almost a year.... and he wants to live with a roommate for atleast another year......

I definitely struggle with wanting him, but he say he doesn't struggle with his thought life or temptation very much at all, so to him, another year is "all good".

So basically, I get a little bitter because I feel like he is getting a good deal (friendship, companionship, encouragment,cuddling up to watch movies, cuddling up to watch movies at home etc.) and I'm getting... not marriage and not sex, lol. Plus he maintains that since we are not married he doen't need to tell me his plans or check in with me or be affectionate in public (hugs, have his arm around me) because that "wouldn't seem appropriate to unbelievers".

I don't want to somehow limit my time with him or withdraw some of the my warmth and encouragment to try and manipulate him into marrying me-- but I kinda feel like he's getting a wife without having to marry anyone!

If it's a good thing for men and women to not have lots of emotionally fulfilling relationships in order to catapult them toward seeking a marriage for that purpose, is it okay to somehow attempt this when courting?

I always thought that once two believers loved and were committed to each other, typically the sexual aspect helsp them get to marriage quicker, but if he is content, what in the world do I do?

lol :)

[14. a sassy sister said the following at 8:08 PM on Nov 2:]

14

I think these relationships can hinder,but I think the problem is the "mentality" and motive, not simply the relationship. I wonder if it boils down to purpose and balance. It is one thing to have a variety of relationships with different types of people, male and female, but it is quite another in terms of the level of intimacy, investment, and expectations for each one.

I think the problem really boils down to an UNHEALTHY dependence on these relationships to avoid dealing with loneliness or other issues, and that can happen for some, but it doesn't happen for everyone. However, when it does, I think that people should, for starters:
Get real with yourself and check your motives, expectations, and ideas about relationships(even friendships) against Scripture. Are your expectations steeped in selfish gratification with minimal effort? Are you expecting perfection and your ideal without any change on your part?
If so, sounds like you're being influenced by a "consumer mentality."

I believe that the reason why "consumer relationships" happen is similar to the reason why the "friend zone" happens----one party is making themselves way too available and investing themselves waaay too much into the relationship, hoping the relationship will change.(I've been there, done that, and have plenty of T-shirts to prove it). There's also the chance that one person may have such a desire to be with someone that they look at all members of the opposite sex or in their vicinity as potential marital prospects, while not really looking closely at whether or not this someone they would be friends with, much less marry.

I currently am in a state like this, except for a few things: I am thoroughly convinced as a believer that my responsibility is to encourage my fellow believers, male and female. When it comes to guys, I remind myself that I will always be their sister in the faith, and that my responsibility to do right trumps their attractiveness, etc. Therefore, I understand that my assistance has no strings attached or secret plan attached to it. Those desires I take to God in prayer(and do my best to leave there). I also remind that living doesn't ultimately stop or start with marriage; it is simply a great continuance in an already wonderful story.

I think singles can be drawn to intentional relationships when they are in genunine, authentic, safe community with one another, but that also must be in conjunction with a single Christian's already existing, healthy relationship with God.

[15. eleanor said the following at 9:48 PM on Nov 2:]

15

perhaps we need to begin choosing and thinking about that one exclusive relationship as a place of service and sanctification rather than the ultimate source for relational fulfillment. Even in our approach to marriage we are very consumer minded, focused our achieving our happiness and relational perfection. My courtship experiences so far has been showing me how much selfishness consumes and thwarts my romantic hopes. But I've also noticed what a catalyst it's been in my sanctification. To borrow the subtitle from Gary Thomas's book "Sacred Marriage" (which I have yet to read): "What If God Designed Marriage to Make Us Holy More Than to Make Us Happy?" The title alone has given me much to consider.... I hope the book will too.

[16. Rob said the following at 9:52 PM on Nov 2:]

16

I think your friend is using her statistical knowledge of guys to stereotype them, which is what statistics is supposed to do. As I guy I feel the same way about girls, vis-a-vis. However, when it comes to finding the one you love, you can't stereotype, you take a risk and commit to the relationship (fyi, never had a girlfriend but I've observed the crowd long enough to make some observations). Everybody is an individual not easily define by statistics or stereotypes.

[17. Larissa said the following at 10:46 PM on Nov 2:]

17

I hadn't thought about this before, but I guess it is true. By having all your needs met by multiple people, why bother searching for "the one," when it'll be hard for them to meet all your needs?

I know I have guy friends who I go to for various reasons - one for theological conversations, one to make me laugh, one to reminisce, etc.
And yet the desire is still there for me to have a relationship with one guy only.
I'm willing to give up the closeness of other friendships, when "the one" (for lack of a better term) comes along. I wonder if that is where the issue is... people not being willing to sacrifice every need being perfectly met, for every need being met as best as one person is able.

[18. FutureMrsLarijani said the following at 5:33 AM on Nov 3:]

18

My two cents after spending four years at a conservative, Christian post-secondary institution and being almost married to someone who did not have the same collegiate experience I did:

Many early 20-something Christians come from some very un-Christian homes. The teaching at their churches are not much better. They seem to enter early adulthood with a very low view of marriage. If not a low view of marriage, then their idea of commitment is often warped. That Hollywood idea of chemistry is bought into. People think relationships should be easy.

I think I can speak for Amir and I when I say it was not love at first sight. There were no flying doves or fireworks going off in the background. At several key points we made conscious choices to love each other. Now - 32 days out from The Day - there is nobody else that we would so willingly make so many sacrifices for.

[19. Vanessa said the following at 5:59 AM on Nov 3:]

19

I really, REALLY think it does for a lot of people. It does seem that men are more likely to not work for a relationship if they have a lot of female friends more than a woman will not work for a relationship if they have a lot of male friends.

I guess it could be because we women are more relational in general? I do know several guys who are content to hang out with their friends who are girls and while they may from time to time express a desire for a relationship...they don't seem in any hurry to get there.

For me, having a few guy friends isn't coming CLOSE to satisfying the desire for a husband of my own. I must admit that I limit one-on-one contact with my guy friends (with whom I feel no romantic inclination for various legitimate reasons) to the "less than the 2-hour per week" rule and I also don't give anything physically except infrequent "side hugs." Also, at least half of my male friends are married and I'm just as good of friends with their wives (and only hang out with them as a couple).

[20. Shavonne Nicole said the following at 7:13 AM on Nov 3:]

20

As a young woman in his 20's, I find myself at the same table as the abovementioned woman. I have several male friends, some of whom are very dear and close to me and since finding the Boundless website, I've been wondering if I need to cut my guys out of my life. Reading the post this morning is helping to change how I view my relationships with these guys and the lack of intentionality on both parts. Keep the good things coming, Boundless!

[21. Paul said the following at 7:42 AM on Nov 3:]

21

I don't know whether such relationships do hinder guys from engaging in intentional relationships. I can muse, but better to tell my own story.

What I can testify to is that I'm a single guy who definitely doesn't ask (female) friends out to dinner (Podcast Episode 92), doesn't deliberately engage young ladies in one on one deep and meaningful conversations or theological discussions, and generally keeps such relationships on a shallower level than those with my male friends.

Even as I write this, I'm realising that this might be something of a problem, and that perhaps it's time for me to begin engaging women at least a little more deeply. Time for a mixed bible study group perhaps.

But that's not the point.

The point is, what I do have is a serious, deep and currently growing desire to find a wife.

In truth, there are probably other causes more powerful, including the way I feed the desire with pro-marriage material such as Boundless.

But still, perhaps my desire is, in part, driven by the fact that I'm not gaining satisfaction anywhere else.

[22. Elizabeth H. (Russia) said the following at 7:58 AM on Nov 3:]

22

I was wondering about this, too. I have a few guy friends who have very close friendships with many girls at church. It's not that they are "playing the field," but that they have no lack of female companionship. It makes me wonder if it slows down the pursuit of more intentional relationships.

I took a few steps back from some of these friendships. But it is hard to watch other girls continuing to be casual about deep friendships with guys. It makes me feel that I am too rigid. Maybe I come off as unfriendly to the guys. In some ways I feel at peace about living out my convictions. But then I start comparing myself to others.

The answer? Maybe the topic should be brought up in a larger group. Because if the atmosphere in a certain fellowship group has a "buddy" tendency, then one guy or girl trying to do things differently probably isn't going to make much of an impact. It takes accountability.

[23. Doc said the following at 7:59 AM on Nov 3:]

23

I believe that the determining factor in these type of friendships (i.e., where there is no interest in a long term relationship) is whether or not it would be appropriate to continue them at the same level after marriage to someone else. This is something that I have been convicted of recently and I have had to "dial back" my friendships with a couple of single female friends in order to avoid sending the wrong signals to them.

[24. Nate said the following at 9:04 AM on Nov 3:]

24

Posts like this discourage me, not due to the poster, due to the true message it contains. Thanks to Boundless, prayer and a lot of my own research, I'm learning how much there really is to marriage and being married, and how little of it is know by Americans primarily due to this consumer mentality.

Case in point. I decided a few weeks ago to try out online dating, just to see what it was about. Trying to be a Christian with a brain & not a mindless lemming waiting for signs from heaven, I just wanted to explore it some and see what it had to offer, (note consumer mindset even ahead of time). I have to admit it was somewhat enjoyable and interesting, but in the same way that it would be if I was shopping for hockey sticks or skates, (I'm not a motor-head, so the car shopping analogy is out). It was kinda fun to see who came up based on various criteria I designated.

As I moved along though, I had the unsettling feeling that I was 'shopping'. All these 'listings' are PEOPLE. Real God-loved people with feelings and personalities. The ones I looked at were largely based on appearance and my own desired criteria. Additionally, almost every 'listing' included quite dissertation on what that person 'wanted' out of a perspective mate. The whole experience made me very uncomfortable and 3 days into it, I backed out of it completely.

Interestingly enough, I had been praying quite a bit about online dating before & during my little 'experiement'. When I canceled my last membership at 12:34AM, I felt a great peace come over me. I felt like I had explored an option, found it lacking on many levels, was convicted to move on, and obeyed God by backing away.

Now, understand that was ME, MY experience and MY conviction. Some people have done online dating and it has worked very well for them. I believe God can use it, like many flawed tools in our midst. As for me, I found it to be extremely 'consumer minded' and I could not continue with it.

I've related this anecdote to underscore my hearty agreement with Suzanne's assessment of our consumerist mentality when it comes to dating and marriage. As much as the discussion she had with her friends angers me...they are sadly right on the money in most cases. I'm not immune or guiltless, though I believe that the events of the last couple years are moving me away from that line of thinking. Yes, I have desires and hopes about what my future wife will be like; looks, interests, beliefs, etc. There is nothing wrong with that. But when I start to take a "Consumer Reports" method of selection, I end up looking for a "super-wife" that doesn't exist. In it's absence, I closely befriend several women, each able to meet a particular emotional, intellectual, or, sadly, physical need I may have. As a result, I never commit to anyone, but string a bunch of decent women along.

EXACTLY as described above. I'm appalled and disgusted by the truth of what they shared.

The "Guy's Guide to Marrying Well" is a fabulous resource. I've read it through repeatedly, and come to the conclusion that the one for me is very close by. However, I have much to learn about marriage itself, and in good time, God will reveal her to me. Our marriage will be fun, hard, exciting, sad, enjoyable, maddening, but ultimately, loving and committed.

The 'Marrying Well' guides are great resources. Boundless is a wonderful resource that I lean on. Ultimately, however, we Christians need to get back on our knees and read our bibles if we hope to change the consumerist tide and make marriage holy again. It sounds simple, because it is. We need not complicate what God has made simple. God help us and our country if we don't.

--NMM

[25. NSL said the following at 9:11 AM on Nov 3:]

25

My initial response to the article is that guys are still motivated to pursue a wife so that they can get their sexual needs met.

But sadly, many men have women in their lives who are willing to illegitimately fulfill those needs too.

[26. Thats Me said the following at 9:51 AM on Nov 3:]

26

Wow, what a topic. This sounds like your friends were talking about me.

As far as what to do to help, I think Boundless is doing plenty to help. I'm able to say that, because this sounds like where I was a little over a year ago.

I don't know if the problem is so much guy's not wanting to pursue women and leeching. I know a lot of guys that try to pursue, but then get tired of hearing "I just wanna be friends". The REAL problem happens when these "friends" carry on like they're dating anyway, and women aren't innocent in enabling this type of behavior, either. It's easy to believe that ALL girls just want to be friends, so it's just easier for a guy to not try and pursue, and then we have cases of opposite sex friends just leeching from each other. I like how you said that there are healthy things that come from healthy opposite sex friendships, but things get unhealthy when boundaries get bad. Someone has to make a decision that they won't play that game (the we're not dating but we act like it game), and that if they want extra time and attention from a person, that they are going to need to commit to something.

I was a part of a group that fed off each other for opposite sex companionship, but God helped me realize that my behavior was crippling my vision for marriage. I learned some good things during that time, like women that cared about holiness really DID exist. So from that, I learned for the future that instead of jumping at the first woman I saw, God helped me sharpen some standards and gave me a list of things to pray for in a wife.

Other things that helped me on Boundless were topics about risking rejection, reading "Not your buddy", and just realizing that I wouldn't get anywhere in my dream for marriage if I kept up 8-10 surface level relationships. God helped me realize I needed to commit to one.

Well anyway, I'll digress. Boundless helped me a lot w/ this and getting intentional, and now I'm in a courtship with one of the young women I had a chance to build a friendship with in those groups. Which reminds me! That was one really good thing that I did appreciate. I got to know my girlfriend as an acquaintance for quite awhile, and we got to see eachother's character in action while we weren't trying to impress the other and just wear a mask. :)

So I guess after all that I wrote, mixed gender groups really do have other healthy aspects to it. Just helping a young man get started in pursuit isn't one of them.

[27. Jeffrey Whiting said the following at 10:14 AM on Nov 3:]

27

I think much of these comments are missing the point.

The question seems to be this: do platonic friendships and egalitarian social roles hinder the male pursuer imperative?

And the answer: of course it does! There is no need to jump through a thousand hoops of contortion to understand this simple principle: men don't pursue because they are told not to.

However, I have low hopes the situation will be reversed because, again, even conservative Christians seem to favor this egalitarian social arrangement and are unwilling to revert to more traditional mores. To put it another way: they want to have their platonic friendship cake and eat it too.

[28. Jeremiah said the following at 10:27 AM on Nov 3:]

28

"I think guys don't pursue the way we women want them to because..."

Lets break down this statement for a minute. A group of 20-something women get together to discuss dating and the focus of the conversation is why don't MEN do things in the way that the women want them to. The girls then brainstorm a bunch of crazy ideas - mind you, without seeking input from a real live actual Christian man. (Kind of like Democrates trying to come up with a "bipartinsan" solution that is completely devoid of Republicans.)

Then the list of solutions becomes what can women do the FORCE men to behave like the women think they should. (Notice that there are still no actual men engaged in this initial conversation).

Maybe, just maybe, its not the guys that are 100% the problem here.

[29. Will said the following at 10:36 AM on Nov 3:]

29

It really bothers me that women expect men to "risk rejection", whatever that means. It goes against human nature to do that; in every other area of life, human beings always weigh the possibility of success against the possible drawbacks of a failed attempt (awkwardness around that person, damaged self esteem, etc. etc.)

Saying things like "You should find your worth in God" are kind of silly; God designed us a certain way...we are relational, and we get emotionally wounded whether we trust in God or not.

Like it or not girls, a guy is not going to ask you out without a reasonable probability of success; even a 50/50 shot in his mind is not going to be good enough.

[30. Jeremiah said the following at 10:51 AM on Nov 3:]

30

Ok, my last few comments were semi-polite. Now, I've read through more of the posts and its just making me upset. ...The gloves are comming off. ;)

I can't believe how many people on here (especially the guys) are just nodding their heads and going along with this ridiculous theory. Yup, Christian guys are not pursuing the women at church because we already get ALL our needs taken care of - running partner, check; conversation partner, check; prayer buddy, check.

This is insane!!!!

A man's number one need is for sex. This need is biblically documented and is justified over and over again in Christian pre- and post-marital counseling. The desire for sex is what causes a man to leave his parents and seek out a wife in order to become one with her in flesh. This desire does not change because a guy has found some female friends to go running with. There is something else going on here that is hindering that guy from making a move...

9 times out of 10, my guess is that "the guy" you ladies are talking about is not really into the women that are his Christian friends. He has his eye on someone else.

Can we please stop letting one gender dictate how they (women) think that men think. Most of it is just flat out wrong.

In fact, ending male-female friendships is about the worst advice I can think of in this situation. If men and women didn't understand each other before, how is seperating the genders going to help them know each other better?

[31. edwige said the following at 12:05 PM on Nov 3:]

31

#6. Chris
>> Just keep praying for us guys as we develop and grow into the guy God has planned for you. We want you too, but we've gotta learn how to be intentional.<<

I am doing so and I am encouraging my sistas around me to do so too =)!! And we are expecting God to answer more than what we are praying for... like he promised in his words =)!!

#24 Nate
>>Ultimately, however, we Christians need to get back on our knees and read our bibles if we hope to change the consumerist tide and make marriage holy again. It sounds simple, because it is. We need not complicate what God has made simple. God help us and our country if we don't.<<
So true and I agree with most of what u said!!

BOUNDLESS and BOUNDLESS COMMUNITY YOU HAVE BEEN AND STILL ARE A BLESSING =)!

[32. Elizabeth said the following at 1:02 PM on Nov 3:]

32

Thank you Suzanne for another insightful post! I am encouraged by this as I'm all too familiar with this.

In my own humble experience, I've made similiar mistakes and realized I was putting my own needs before the other person. God really spoke to my heart by reminding me to put myself in others shoes or "do to others as you would have them do to you". In turn, I had to have a couple conversations with some guy friends which involved me to ask for their forgiveness (thankfully no damage was done to our friendship - and we're still friends today). But I really had to think outside of my own needs and onto them and what I could be doing that would be harmful to the friendship.

I am very encouraged by comments #24 & 26. I unfortunately had to go through a painful experience with a brother in Christ where unfortunately our friendship suffered and eventually was severed. We both agreed to have a friendship first before pursing a relationship. It hurt a great deal to realize I was strung along. It still hurts, however I've learned a great deal from that. I've learned that clear communication and boundaries are key. Also after talking to several Godly married couples, praying before initiating a 1:1 relationship/courtship is key. I also seek out accountability with others in the church before I get involved in a 1:1 relationship. But I learned not to do any real "deep sharing" or a lot of 1:1 time until a commitment is made. It's easy for a woman to get emotionally attached, especially when discussing sensitive topics like what we are looking for in a mate and how many kids we'd like to have.

Thankfully through the pain, I'm learning more about selflessness, and putting others before myself.

[33. Nikki said the following at 1:08 PM on Nov 3:]

33

The minute you put boundaries up guys notice.

I'm the funny girl that likes to bake. And many of my guy friends think I'm hilarious and enjoy eating my kitchen creations. Life was good, but no guys asked me out.

When I stopped being as avaliable to the guys in my life. Stopped being thier buddy, and began to only interact with them in group setting in one - two times a week, its amazing how much more they respected me and began to see me as a potential wife. They always knew the good qualities about me but they could partake of them whenever.

Now they see me as more than just a jokester buddy. The less accessible I became, the more mysterious I became and only through pursuing and ultimately commitment to me in a relationship are they going to peel back the layers of this mystsery

[34. Jo said the following at 1:31 PM on Nov 3:]

34

You know, if one part of a human body doesn't work properly, other parts will try to compensate. The body is wonderfully versatile like that.

Human beings are versatile too, and since we thrive on encouragement, fun, intellectual stimulation and all these other things, it makes sense that we're going to seek those things out as best we can. Reading Paul's post #21, I just think it's not healthy to deprive ourselves of meaningful relationships just because we're single.

But just like the body will revert to its 'natural' state as soon as the not-working part is fixed, the fact that we have fun and engage in deep discussions with people of the opposite sex doesn't mean we're not going to recognise a potential marriage partner when one shows up.

Definitely, we can have wrong priorities and too-high expectations (which I think is what Suzanne was talking about in the OP) - and this is something to guard against.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater, for goodness sake. Friendships with a variety of people are healthy and beneficial. If I didn't have the close friends I have (both male and female), singleness would really suck. I'm grateful for them every day. It doesn't stop me wanting to be married, and it's not going to make me blind to the right guy when he comes along.

[35. BDB said the following at 1:53 PM on Nov 3:]

35

This is probably one of those things that varies by personlity type. Analytical personalities are going to be more aware of what they do and do not have in common with others.

Try this on:

Single women at church: 50
Who've been on a mission trip: 20
Who believe in tithing: 3
Who like to hike and camp: uh-oh...

Now, combine that with the general expectation men have to financially support a family. So, they officially focus on getting their financial house in order while watching for someone who matches all their categories. In the mean time, they hang out in groups with women who don't understand why they're not being asked out.

I mean really, when someone meets a person with a LOT in common, the wedding can happen fast. When they only have a little in common, maybe it takes time for each of them to bend a little bit and try new things, and to appreciate what different people offer.

I've had very long conversations with two of my friends before they got engaged, where they really thought through the strenghts and weaknesses of the person they were considering. They realized they were giving up part of what they had hoped to share with someone.

BUT...in both cases the person they married was willing to be flexible. One really liked to volunteer, but her husband not so much. But he WAS very supportive of her efforts, and was careful to not interfere or inhibit her volunteer activities. And, 10 years after their wedding, she excitedly told me about a volunteerng thing HE had organized. It still mattered to her, but they made accomodations so that each could pursue their hobbies with other friends.

Another friend who was considering proposing related how the woman hated guns, but was willing to go shooting with him once. Again, this was an activity he had hoped to share. But instead, he was impressed by her willingness to be flexible and at least try. He can always go with his dad and brothers, and she doesn't get in the way of that.

Honestly, if there was less group activity I think you'd have more dating - and more breakups. People would find out things in the course of dating that were deal-breakers for them, instead of observing them in a group setting.

[36. Nate said the following at 1:57 PM on Nov 3:]

36

Jeremiah (#30):

While I promise to be respectful, I play a TON of ice hockey and something about the loss of gloves.

I would say to an extent, speak for yourself. Yes, sex is a big need in mens live. I'm single, and God has been very gracious in toning back my sex drive while I am searching for a life-mate. But make no mistake. I miss it, and want it badly. HOWEVER, your characterization makes us men out to be ravenous animals concerned primarily with sex and lots of it. I think that is horse crap. So what happens when a guy gets old enough to loose the ability to enjoy sex (heaven help me)?? Ditch the ole' girl, grab some V-pills and find a new model? Gimme a break.

Sex is very important to me, and there is NOTHING wrong with wanting a wife that is attractive me, with one of the intents being the eventual enjoyment of the marital bed, (couch, floor, counter, ice, etc). But to make that the PRIMARY issue is wrong and, frankly, un-true.

Additionally, no one wants to separate genders. The GOAL here is approach such relationships with care, so they don't become deep enough that the girl gets emotional involved while the guy has no such intentions. I've been drug along before and dropped like a hot potato, and it's no fun.

As has been made clear in scripture, on Boundless and elsewhere, the man has the responsibility to lead in the church, and the home. If there are messes left and right, more then likely the guys ARE at fault, and maybe we need to man up to that responsibility and do something about it rather then stick it back in the girls faces. I'm as guilty as anyone, and have years of marital pain to show for it. But with God's enablement, I'm trying to be one small part of turning the tide of lethargy and taking some responsibility.

Submitted with respect & love. My gloves are back on and down I skate to score more goals.

--NMM

[37. Adam said the following at 2:03 PM on Nov 3:]

37

Nikki,

When I stopped being as avaliable to the guys in my life. Stopped being thier buddy, and began to only interact with them in group setting in one - two times a week, its amazing how much more they respected me and began to see me as a potential wife. They always knew the good qualities about me but they could partake of them whenever.

And what of Jesus' commands in Matthew 18?:

Matthew 18:15-20 "And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst."

Again, I am seeing a lot of anger, but a real lack of clarity as to what everyone is angry about. I am not even saying that anyone is wrong in what they have said [except, if something is wrong, I think that Jesus' commands in Matthewn 18 need to be followed]. I am just concerned that everything is not very clearly defined, and this could be easily used as a blank check for anything a woman might deem as a "consumer relationship."

God Bless,
Adam

[38. Myr said the following at 2:11 PM on Nov 3:]

38

Someone with whom you can laugh, have deep conversations, and who is encouraging, is not an unrealistic ideal or a "non-existent all-in-one superwife."

[39. Tami said the following at 2:32 PM on Nov 3:]

39

Jeremiah (30) wrote:

"9 times out of 10, my guess is that 'the guy' you ladies are talking about is not really into the women that are his Christian friends. He has his eye on someone else."

I have genuine, non-snarky questions to ask. If this is true:

1. Why does he bother hanging out with women he's not really "into"? To me it implies that he *is* getting some sort of benefit from these relationships. And why not make it clear to those girls that he *is* into *someone else* if that's the case... and then pursue that girl he's interested in?

2. (This one may not be explainable.) Most groups of women include at least one girl that is, objectively, physically attractive. If the guy really likes hanging out with these girls, there's nothing unappealing/unattractive about them, and they are pretty, most girls eventually wonder: why isn't he asking one of us out? If the guy's not "into" her (even considering her coolness as a friend, her prettiness, her kindness and good Christian character, etc) -- why?

For example: I'm currently around a guy who is constantly saying he can't get a date, can't find any girls who would be interested, etc. etc. Yet I know a girl who knows him (and the women who know him), and she says, "Oh yeah, he says that, but a TON of girls are interested in him." These are attractive, outgoing Christian girls. Something doesn't add up. It's one thing to say "I haven't met The One yet" and another to say "I never meet ANYONE who might be interested" and yet the situation is quite the contrary (as evidenced by the many girls who are attracted). As an observer, it sort of baffles me.

I wonder if there's a degree of "familiarity breeding contempt" going on here. Which might be part of the issue... and why I think Nikki (33) was wise to pull back.

[40. Jeremiah said the following at 3:11 PM on Nov 3:]

40

Nate (#36),

I respect your opinion and do concede that some men have different sex drives than others. I also, assume from your post that you are coming from the perspective of a man that is, or has been, married. I would theorize that the “concept” of marital sex looks much different and perhaps more enticing from the outside…

That said, do you really think that single men are not stepping up because single women are TOO available for friendship? Because that, to me, is the gist of the article…

I guess I’m a little more in the camp with BDB (#35). I have several fairly close single Christian female friends. The reason I don’t ask them out is because we have major differences on BIG issues. Usually its stuff like finances, or excercise, or alcohol, or past relationships, or goals... I don’t know, maybe I’m the freak here… but I don’t think "too much friendship" is the problem.

The gender divide is much more complicated than that.

[41. Paul said the following at 3:21 PM on Nov 3:]

41

#30, Jeremiah

It's a sunday school response in some ways, but I think it's important to remember that man's biggest need isn't sex, but God's saving grace by faith in Jesus. Everything else pales in comparison, and it's always a point I bear in mind when talking about this stuff. :D

[42. Jeremiah said the following at 3:30 PM on Nov 3:]

42

Tami (#39),
I can only speak for myself but here are my thoughts.

1. Why does he bother hanging out with women he's not really "into"?

Answers:

Female perspective: Sometimes it’s good to get the female take on what you are doing right/wrong as a guy.
Inside Info: If you get to be good enough friends with a woman she may give you the inside scoop on that girl you like at church… or a heads up on which ones are into you.
Connections: In theory, single Christian women have single Christian female friends. My hope that my female friends will think I’m fantastic and set me up with one of her girlfriends. The thought that she may be into me doesn’t always occur.
Bait: The secular world tells men that women are into guys that have a certain “ladies man” charm. If I am at the park with a female friend I draw far more attention and looks from other girls than if I am there for myself.

[43. BDB said the following at 3:33 PM on Nov 3:]

43

Tami (#39) wrote:

>>"Oh yeah, he says that, but a TON of girls are interested in him." These are attractive, outgoing Christian girls. Something doesn't add up.<<

I read an interesting article once titled, "Rewarding A while hoping for B."

The best example I've observed is those who constantly go after members of the opposite sex who are optimized for entertainment - always planning or going to a party, etc. Yet come away disenheartened that none of them have a heart for God.

Well, they're looking for the wrong trait. A lot of people who are earnestly following God decide that he is not to be found in alcohol-soaked entertainment. So you won't find them in the center of the party. Wrong place to look.

And frankly, some of those party-minded people ARE very outgoing and DO show interest quickly. And they extend invitations much more readily. Non-Christian women often extend invitations to social events.

So, in comparison, the more sincere Christians, who aren't building their life around alcohol, SEEM less interested - especially those women who bury their feelings until the man takes initiative. He might be comparing apples and oranges.

Which is why Elisabeth Elliot's approach makes so much more sense: simply counsel the guy to set aside the list of things he's looking for, and pray for God to bring to his attention what he OUGHT to be looking for instead. God is fully capable of answering prayer - but first people need to actually pray.

(For an interesting example of this, go through all the healing miracles in the New Testament. You may have heard that Jesus never healed two people the same way twice. But there are two things he did do. First, they had to tell him what they wanted OUT LOUD. They had to say it; they had to ask. Second, he gave them something to do - they had to choose whether or not to obey. "Stretch Out Your Hand" was an absurd request, but they guy obeyed and his prayer was answered.)

[44. Myr said the following at 3:38 PM on Nov 3:]

44

# 39

As for the scenario you propose, you have much more information about the situation than he does, unless he's been told that many of his female friends and acquaintances really are interested in him. Most likely no one says that to his face. Even if they did, there's always the idea that they could just be saying it to make him feel better rather than relating an as of yet unknown fact. All he may see are girls who are friendly to him, and as has been stated many times and in many places, a girl acting friendly or kindly does not necessarily mean she's interested, she could just be being polite. I don't know what he knows and how he thinks. You probably have a better idea than I do. Just keep in mind, you get to hear his side of the story and the girls' side, while he may only be hearing his. And of course there's always the possibility that he's not interested in the girls you both know for one reason or another. There are countless variables when it comes to humans and what goes on inside their heads. Don't be quick to judge.

(It's like this documentary I saw where they used night vision to record a leopard stalking a herd of gazelle or some other deer-like animal at night. You could plainly see that the leopard was right out there in the open and very close to its prey. It was easy to forget that you could see more than the animals could. It was easy to wonder how they did not see that leopard that was RIGHT there, SO close. You had night vision, they didn't.)

And of course, you know more about the situation than I do, so you might know something that proves me wrong.

[45. Jeremiah said the following at 4:05 PM on Nov 3:]

45

Part II

2. Groups of women, etc…

I’ve only got theories on this one, but here goes….

Most female groups do tend to have an “alpha female” who is typically the prettiest one in the group. Then again, the alpha female is usually the one that is getting the most attention, and therefore has less incentive to actually accept offers. Meanwhile her friends stand by, sometimes in silent jealously, while verbally building up the alpha female by telling her how pretty she is.

Sigh… sorry, rabbit trail….

Anyway, if the man is pleading that no one is in to him he may be testing the waters to see if he can get any info - which will increase his chances of success when he does make a move. He very likely has his eye on the alpha but will settle for an alternative if the alpha is out of his league, or is taken. More likely though, a single guy will switch groups rather than giving up on an alpha that he feels is a worthy lateral match…

The other possibility – and I see this often – is that the concept of a lateral match is not the same to both parties. The man may have a super high impression of himself and he feels that all the girls in the group are beneath him to a point where it doesn’t even occur to him that ANYONE in that group is datable. …In other instances, the girls themselves have misjudged their appeal or what this guy is looking for and assume that they are in the running when they really aren’t even close.

(For example, Bachelor A likes skinny girls and everyone in the group is very pretty, but perhaps more curvy… no amount of good qualities or arguing the point will change that guy’s preference and all the girls are going to be confused… God can change hearts and may eventually change this man’s preferences. However, the saddest thing is to see women obsessed over men that are clearly not into them, meanwhile the man that does want to be with that girls is desperately waiting for an opening – but she never even looks his way. FYI, I’ve been on both sides of that equation… )

I also agree that familiarity breeds contempt. I have several groups of female friends where one or two of the members are very datable – strong Christians, cute, attractive, great personality, etc. But in these cases I have already dismissed the dating potential. Perhaps that woman is highly critical of me because I go to happy hour on Fridays with my coworkers. In this case, any amount of alcohol is a deal breaker for her… I’m not going to even try to change her mind. In my experience, it’s just not worth the fight. So, game over. Then over time, she is wondering why I don’t make a move and I honestly have stopped considering the possibility.

Confusing? Yes. Believe me we’re all real frustrated by this.

[46. Kellie said the following at 4:08 PM on Nov 3:]

46

Re #13: It would depend on his reasons for wanting to wait. Do they seem valid to you? Your mentor couple? And (I hate to ask), does he perhaps not really want to marry you?

[47. Nate said the following at 4:49 PM on Nov 3:]

47

Jeremiah (40):

Good response, good conversation. I just want to redirect a little bit. The original points I made are that (a) not all men are sex-crazed animals, and (b) that too many close friendships with girls, (and I do speak from the guys' point of view, hence the one-way choice of words) can be highly detrimental to some of those girls due to potential emotional investment on their part, while lacking any on our part, which seems to be the spirit of the original discussion Suzanne detailed. That's what I wanted to convey.

Why guys don't step up as they should in relationships, (before / during)? Well, that's another discussion altogether.

And yes, I come from a very difficult marriage that ultimately was ended by my cheating spouse. The lack of sex, intimacy / communication on all levels was a source of excruciating pain for me. Odd as it may seem, I feel that I, while no longer a virgin, have yet to truly give all of myself to a woman. It's a long story I've revealed up here before, but it's my context of thinking. I am trying to change myself, with God's enablement, to be a real man and step out when it seems appropriate.

Respectfully,

--NMM

[48. a sassy sister said the following at 4:55 PM on Nov 3:]

48

to #13:

I had a friend of mine who was in a similar situation. However, one of the things I emphasized in our conversations is not a good idea to FORCE OR MANIPULATE A MAN INTO MARRIAGE...and if you feel yourself mentally going into that mode in this relationship, then I think you're handling your desire for marriage the wrong way(not to mention making your relationship more like a parent-child than two grown adults). I think you should ask yourself: What is the point of this relationship, and what objective am I accomplishing by getting in it? I understand that you've invested a year in this relationship....but isn't it better not to rush a major, life-changing decision of entering into the covenant of marriage? I believe that a big reason why some divorces happen in churches is because some people want to get married so strongly that they ignore red flags or major trouble spots in the relationship(and in their own hearts) to get married.

I don't want to be brutal about this, but it sounds like you're more emotionally invested in this relationship than he is(I could be wrong, but you won't know what the story is until you ask him flat out). When actions and words don't match up, then you need to have a conversation about it (and not one amped up on emotions). I also believe that you should also enter a courtship with the understanding that while your intent is to pursue marriage, you should also be aware that even a courtship process isn't a guarantee against a relationship not working out. Not trying to be cynical, just being realistic. But you won't know the truth until you talk to him about it.

[49. Lucie said the following at 5:58 PM on Nov 3:]

49

Like Kellie #46, I found #13's description of her boyfriend puzzling, if not disturbing. I'm no expert on this matter, and I don't want to further the "ravening male beast" stereotype, but frankly, I've never heard of anyone (of either sex) possessed of what would be considered a normal and healthy sex drive say that they don't "struggle with their thought life or temptation very much" - especially after a year of dating! Kellie asked a difficult question - does the young man really want to marry? - but it needs to be asked. Sounds like it's time for the couple's mentors to do a little serious questioning.

The fact that the gentleman also doesn't see any need to tell #13 his plans, or check in with her, simply because they are not married, is another red flag, IMO. I would tell #13 to proceed with great caution. A little backing off on her part might provide some needed revelation, as well.

[50. Lucie said the following at 6:01 PM on Nov 3:]

50

Male friendship is something I've missed in my life for years now. It adds a nice balance. Interestingly, though, a lot of my male friends turned out to be gay. Well, they are easier for women to talk to! (LOL) Seriously, though, I'm curious to know if other women on this board have had a similar experience.

[51. Shauna said the following at 8:20 PM on Nov 3:]

51

Lucie (50)-
I agree that having male friends is a refreshing change from female friends. For many years I haven't had any, but recently I re-connected with one. The problem was, he is not a Christian, so he is not dateable. That puts him the in friends-only category, but besides that, I found that I had to cut back spending time with him because I enjoyed it so much. So I can see the danger as well as the benefit of opposite-sex friends. Certainly it has helped to increase my confidence (I'm not totally repugnant to guys- yay!) but it also made me want to go to him to get my emotional needs met. I have to say, the whole experience has served to make me desire marriage more than ever, and to have more hope that it is somewhere in my future. But if I had continued in a close friendship with this guy, I most definitely would have become too attached. And that's not fair to other any other guys that may become interested in me. So my opinion is: yes, have opposite-sex friends, but don't let them get too close. Maintain your boundaries and keep looking for the special one that you can let them down for.

[52. Kelly-1 said the following at 8:21 PM on Nov 3:]

52

10. David Daniel - you spoke of holding hands with your sister(s), and loving her, and she loving you. I'm confused: a blood-sister or a sister-in-Christ? If she's the latter, I would be 90% convinced that she has a crush on you, is probably in love with you, and is waiting for you to realise that she will be your perfect wife.

If she's your blood sister, then wow, what an awesome relationship to have.

13. Last One Home's Not Really Home - yikes. He doesn't sound very committed at all! I've seen guys like this: they think, "Marriage is the next logical step," rather than, "I love and want to marry this girl!" Let me warn you, even if marriage is the next logical step, there's no guarantee he'll actually do it.

I would say your relationship is in serious trouble. Maybe break it off for a while and see how you both feel?

----

My take on this? About 2 years ago, I consciously chose to not be good friends with men any more. I'd been in so many situations where one of us wanted more and the other didn't and it just caused endless pain.

Since then, I've been lonelier. I REALLY MISS male friendship.

I also recognise in myself that if I allow myself to become close to a man (deep conversations), I will inevitably fall for him, or him for me. That's why I don't want to have these deep conversations under the guise of friendship. I want it to be *clearly* a date.

How many dates have I had in the last 2 years? Um...2. Plenty of crushes, plenty of initial sparks, but I'm still not getting asked out.

Obviously it's time to change my MO again, but I haven't yet figured out what I should be doing.

[53. BDB said the following at 10:06 PM on Nov 3:]

53

Um...#13 - how old are you?

I mean, are you 16? Or 36? The answer is different for different settings.

Waiting a year to finish college, for example, would not be something I'd consider to be a red flag. Heck, you can plan the wedding at the same time as graduation so all the families can travel at the same time. Happens all the time.

I'd be more concerned if he was over 30. Unless he's unemployed due to the economy and is secretly hoping to be in a better financial position - able to by a nicer ring for example.

I will say that private movie-cuddling combined with no public displays of affection sounds backwards for belivers, and rather risky. If someone is following a hands off, clothes on rule, it's more important to do it in private.

My opinion is that this is the time to sit down alone with your mentor and communicate your fears. If they've noticed things and chosen not to say anything, you're going to them my confirm their concerns. On the other hand, they may be honest with you and suggest modifying your behavior, so be open to that, too.

[54. Lenice said the following at 1:46 AM on Nov 4:]

54

I have to agree with Adam (8). I read this time it posted and I most definitely had an overly emotional, harsh response to the post because of how it came across. It was discouraging to me and it seems like it is not necessarily intended as an aid to anyone; it just offers more confusion and unrest.

[55. Last One Home said the following at 8:31 AM on Nov 4:]

55

Thanks for a lot of good opinions to think on! I will write more to clarify later after I think about it a bit!

[56. Loris said the following at 8:33 AM on Nov 4:]

56

Nate #47, you mentioned that you feel you have yet to give all of yourself to a woman. I'm rabbit-trailing here, but how can a woman know when she really has her husband's full feelings? As I'm sure you've found out, rings and a shared life don't necessarily mean emotional intimacy.

I always wonder whether I really "have" my husband. I think we're fine, then he says something that makes me cold sweat. It's probably just my insecurity. He's a good guy. However, I was a rebound for him and we married too quickly. Yes, we were a good match intellectually, and we each have skills the other doesn't. Still, I'm always afraid that our lack of common ground makes it hard for him to fully engage with me, even though he knows I'll try to understand. I don't get in his way if he wants to do something, unless it's monumentally stupid, and I'll usually join him if what he's doing is new to me. Like I said, it's probably just me.

[57. BDB said the following at 10:39 AM on Nov 4:]

57

Oh, Loris (#56) kind of went of on a tangent I was thinking about.

Dr. Dobson wrote a book titled, Emotions: Can You Trust Them?

What Loris describes is not at all unusual. At least based on the sermons I hear at men's BBQs and such. It seems that few men continue to communicate their "feelings" as much as their wives would like.

Americas live in a media environment, particularly with music, where people are taught that when they meet "the one," they will be overwhelmed by their feelings.

What if that never happens?

From what I've read in biographies - particularly those WWII-era ones where people got married within days of meeting someone - people didn't always expect to be instantly overwhelmed by their feelings. In other words, they weren't waiting for those feelings before moving forward.

[58. BDB said the following at 10:46 AM on Nov 4:]

58

Didn't finish my thought...

There's a discussion going on elsewhere about whether or not the Bible commands marriage. OK, so how many women would like a man to approach her by saying, "Well, I don't have any feelings for you, but the Bible commands marriage, so how about it?"

Think of it this way, can you tell someone to "man up" and have overwhelming feelings for someone specific?

[59. Freddie said the following at 1:22 PM on Nov 4:]

59

I used to have satisfying relationships with my single friends, but now I'm almost in the opposite situation. Those single friends are now married and most of them have kids, so I feel kind of left out - they tend to discuss diapers and going to the park. So now, more than ever, I want to get married myself, because I think it would make it easier to reconnect to them. Not to mention the other advantages of being married, of course...

[60. Nate said the following at 4:13 PM on Nov 4:]

60

Hi Loris (56):

That is a tough call. I will be very careful as I touch on it, as, honestly, it's a conversation you should be having with your husband. If there are problems communicating by simply conversing about such things, I'd be starting there as far as developing further intimacy.

Not knowing all of the details of your situation, I'll start by saying it isn't "just you". By no means. Frankly, in the early years of marriage, I think any spouse can sometimes feel that way as you really get to know each other and learn each other through and through. Sounds like the both of you may need to spend more time together, focused on God and then getting to know each other and strengthen that bond.

I come from a 6 year marriage that turned out to be a total sham and collection of lies, which was ultimately ended by her when she pursued her new dude. Communication was always an issue, and we never were really intimate as a couple. Understand it takes two to do that, but if neither tries...trouble is brewing like a slow leak in a tire. And based on what you've said, I can see some leaks, (especially since you mentioned it was a rebound relationship of sorts).

I'm certainly no counselor, nor do I know your details. But if it was me (and it was me once), I would be sharing some of this with my spouse and taking some kind of positive action to resolve it together, (which I didn't do). There are so many resources on FotF to help with that. Heck, without Boundless, I don't know where the heck I'd be.

Above all, God wants your marriage to work, and to be glorified though a strong marriage of 2 fallen people. Talk to Him about it if no one else. I promise to talk to Him about it tonight.

But, please do something. From what you have said, it will be disastrous to let it go and do nothing. God bless.

Respectfully,

--NMM

[61. Julie said the following at 4:51 PM on Nov 4:]

61

Maybe the difference between this generation and the ones before us has to do with the purpose of spending time with the opposite sex. If you are expecting to get married in your early 20s, perhaps you look at the people around you much differently than if you expect to wait for years (until you're done with school and/or financially set and/or find your soul mate and/or are overwhelmed with chemistry. Even if the former group dated many people, it was with the purpose of finding a spouse.

I think many people perceive too much choice these days-not only are there the single people around you, but the single people online, and those you may meet in the future (because many people feel no rush). Contrast this with life in a tribe or small village, where you'd be happy just to find one or two people of the opposite sex who were available for marriage.

[62. Carol said the following at 9:27 PM on Nov 4:]

62

Something BDB said struck a chord with me. In a husband, I am looking for someone who is a faithful Christian. But that's not all. I'm also looking for someone I can talk to about the things I think about: politics, books, and science. For some reason, I tend to find one or the other. Either that, or the one who has both isn't interested in me. I've been thinking lately if I should settle for just the first (since I couldn't settle for just the second). But I don't think I can do it. I think I'd rather be single than have someone who wasn't interested in those things.

Do other men fill those roles for me? Definitely my father does, and perhaps one or two other men. Still, I don't think I have any "buddy" relationships that reduce my desire for a husband.

[63. BDB said the following at 12:29 PM on Nov 5:]

63

Carol (#62) wrote:

>>I've been thinking lately if I should settle for just the first (since I couldn't settle for just the second). But I don't think I can do it. I think I'd rather be single than have someone who wasn't interested in those things.<<

And if nothing else, that makes it seem better to delay the decision while focusing on financial stability. Maybe if you wait you'll run into someone who can do it or at least is willing to try and learn.

There are lots of women who want to be married and moms. But they've never developed their intellect in a way that would allow them to be a help-meet to a man who is a knowledge worker. They prepare to be a mom, but have done nothing to prepare themselves to support their husband in the stresses and challenges he faces at work.

This was MUCH easier during an agricultural time. A farm-wife worked her tail off, whether taking care of animals, growing a garden, canning food, etc. etc. etc. My grandmother worked with her widowed aunt to run the farm, the two of them.

Many men who are successful in management jobs credit their wives with providing valuable perspective and insight into people and decisions on how to approach problems. But alas, many women have no interest in talking about "work," they want to talk about kids.

But some people realize they need to take an interest in their spouse's work. One of the stories my grandparents tell is how my grandfather would sneak my grandmother into his college classes. She was a nurse and took interest in what he was learning. They got caught one day in a speech class when the professor asked everyone to come on stage and look down someone's throat to see the parts that produced speech sounds.

My grandmother, the nursing student, was the only one who correctly identified everything. Causing the professor to exclaim, "Excellent! Who are you?"

Umm....well, here's the deal...

[64. Last One Home said the following at 12:46 PM on Nov 5:]

64

BDB and Kelly, etc... :)

I'm 23 and in my first semester of graduate school, he is the same age, but has paid his way through college with cash and has no other financial support, so the going has been slow. His main concern IS finishing school before getting married, but he also knows that he has 3ish years left and that much time is too long for us to wait. I think that is the big issue!

I probably made him sound like a jerk-- he is a good man, wise with his money, cautious with his choices.
and, surprise, I'm compulsive and jump into things.

He was extremly intentional in getting to know me and asking to court, he has been very attentive and intentional as we've been courting, and even though he SAYS there are certain things he "doesn't have to do" because he isn't married, he does usually does them anyway (like checking in with me) it's really kind of silly.
(lol he always brings them up when he sees OTHER women trying to control their boyfriends or husbands, but that's the only situation in which he really talks about it).

He set up our mentoring,and he is always the one to discuss our future--and I don't have doubts that he wants to marry me. He talks about our future kids and growing old together all the time, involves me in all his family functions, and has even asked me to think about how we need to save money and find a house for us all when my mom starts needing care. He is not possessive at all, but I can't seem to spend a day alone-- he wants me with him if at all possible (and I don't mind a bit, he is a blast and really interesting to talk to).

He's invested--he just seems mighty comfortable with how things are now. and maybe I am rushing!

Realistically I know we are BOTH struggling with not being sexually involved/kissing, it's not just me. But to him, the line after which he "gets in trouble" IS kissing, so maybe he legitimately feels like he is doing okay since we are not doing that???

I feel lame because I apparently don't have a trouble line... He's there and I'm ready: that's about all it takes! As bad as that may sound coming from a girl....

[65. BDB said the following at 1:17 PM on Nov 5:]

65

Last One Home (#64) wrote:

>>His main concern IS finishing school before getting married, but he also knows that he has 3ish years left and that much time is too long for us to wait. I think that is the big issue!<<

OK, I had six close friends who all agreed in college that one should not get married until finishing graduate school.

What I didn't realize until years later is that those six people became three couples, marrying people they met in college. They waited until after finishing grad school, in some cases they were separated in different cities while in school.

So, the intellectual way to approach this is do a budget and literally do the math to see if it's even possible to be in school while married. Some school financial aid rules make this quite difficult. But for many schools this isn't a problem with graduate students. Unless there's some sort of things where parents will withdraw their school support if their child marries before finishing.

That said, in previous generations, people put each other through school and lived quite happily in poverty until they graduated. Hey, I know missionaries who are essentially living with poverty income but are happy families. It definitely can be done.

But I almost never hear women these days even consider the concept of putting their husband through school. Sometimes they've heard stories about women who were abandonded by their husbands after they became doctors or some other story. I've heard just as many stories of people who did just fine.

The advantage of working out an actual budget is you know what your situation is. If the math works out better because "two can live as cheaply as one," it might alleviate his concerns. If it's financially impossible, it might help you with waiting. Either way, it gives you something more specific to pray about.

[66. k. said the following at 1:35 PM on Nov 5:]

66

Carol 62 - No one person will meet all our needs. I don't share all my husband's interests, and vice versa. Maybe you won't meet someone who's faithful AND into politics, books, and science. But if you meet a wonderful man who's faithful and loves politics and books, but is bored by science, you might consider that there are other people you can discuss string theory with. And it won't be "settling," either. :)

[67. Loris said the following at 1:40 PM on Nov 5:]

67

Nate #60, It really could just be that we're not so far into the marriage that it fits like favorite jeans, etc. We're 4 years in.

Taking a good, hard look at myself, I'm positive some of the insecurity on my part comes from knowing I'm a wallflower who married the popular guy. Sure, I'm tall and have a beautiful face, and I'm just as smart as he is in different areas, but I never *feel* worthy because I don't excel in the same areas he does. He gets 10x the attention I do, whether from friends or strangers. If anybody watches Family Guy, think of a sanctified Quagmire. Loud, flirty, funny...yeah. He told me several years ago when he was frustrated with me that some of his former coworkers (large city, one of the vanity capitals in the States) didn't get what he saw in me. On my worst days, I don't either. That saying always comes back when I'm frustrated with him, and he's frustrated with me, and it seems to be a fundamental personality clash. He's always ready to reassure me that I'm good for him, but how much reassuring would be enough to make me believe it? So you can see why I would think it's just me.

It's even harder because the traits that would be most interesting to him are also the traits needed to succeed in my industry. I'm learning slowly, and willing to learn more, but I'm nearly 100% sure I'm about to be laid off. So great, I can't connect with my husband on his level, and I don't have any valuable job skills either. /pity party.

[68. Benjamin said the following at 1:54 PM on Nov 5:]

68

"lol he always brings them up when he sees OTHER women trying to control their boyfriends or husbands, but that's the only situation in which he really talks about it"

That is the approach many guys take to addressing that issue because it is so sensitive for many women. But let me state a near-universal truth - guys hate it when women treat his time as if it by rights belongs to her, the petty, selfish jealousy and passive-agressive anger over spending his time in a way that she would not choose. This has come up almost without exception in every friend's relationship I have seen.

[69. BDB said the following at 2:32 PM on Nov 5:]

69

Loris (#67) wrote:

>>So great, I can't connect with my husband on his level, and I don't have any valuable job skills either. /pity party.<<

Does your church have a marriage retreat, or have you heard of Marriage Encounter? Sometimes these events provide a good structure to discuss hard things and work through them.

Here's a random story...

When my grandparents were first married 70 years ago, my grandmother asked my grandfather how many pancakes he wanted. He said 21. She said, are you SURE? He said yes. She said, OK....

And made him 21 plate-sized pancakes.

My grandfather's mom made 2-inch pancakes. That's what he was expecting.

He made it through about 3 of the plate-sized pancakes and had to apologize.

Now, the fact that I know this story is evidence that they learned to laugh about the miscommunication. I'm sure at the moment my grandmother thought he was either being stupid or wasting her time. It's an interesting example of "submitting" to something you know is a bad decision. But, in the end, it opened up a more discussion between them and they ended up with excellent communication.

A lot of people with good skills have been laid off in the last couple of years. A lot of companies simply don't have the work to keep people busy. It is not a final statement on someone's worth by any means. It is sometimes an opportunity to take a long hard look at one's skills and industry. If the industry is shrinking, don't wait to acquire training to switch to a different industry.

In the end, most people realize that a willingness to learn and grow in relation to outside events is the most important skill, not just people coming to the situation as they are. Many 20-somethings don't get this because they don't have enough life experience to understand how the world changes. Lot's of 50-somethings do get this. The best students I ever had when teaching computer skills were sales people over 50 who recognized their their world was changing, and they HAD TO LEARN to succeed in their job. They came to me and said, "Please teach me, but be patient, I'm new!"

This is a round about way of saying that you've identified a skill set I recognize as being important, even if your husband's buddies don't. They may not recognize it until they watch people go through a long layoff and realize that some people give up and blame everyone else; and some people say, "Hmmm...I need a game changer," and set about the task of working the problem.

[70. Carol said the following at 3:27 PM on Nov 5:]

70

To k (#66). I didn't really mean he had to be interested in all three. What I mean is I would like him to have enough background knowledge to discuss them. I get frustrated with men who declare that they never read, or who haven't a clue how our government works. (It would probably help if I lived in an area with more college graduates.)

[71. em said the following at 3:48 PM on Nov 5:]

71

love the comments here - I'm one of those who truly believes that men and women should be friends, so I really don't buy this theory. Even once we are married and, hopefully, have an opposite gendered best friend, we still need both male and female friends in our wider circle of relationships. It's healthy.

Paul (#21) - do go deeper with your gal friends. You aren't going to get to know them if you aren't willing to be a real friend - not just a guy "hang out" pal. I know it's well intended (guarding the girl's heart, etc) but guys who maintain surface-only relationships w/ women annoy the heck out of me because they refuse to engage me on any meaningful level (intellectually, emotionally, spiritually). That makes me feel subhuman - or at least sub-adult. I feel like being female makes me unworthy of real friendship w/ Christian brothers and that deeply saddens me because this ought not be in the body of Christ.

And, BDB, I like your family stories.

[72. Loris said the following at 4:41 PM on Nov 5:]

72

BDB, I'm 25. How did you know? Haha.

Seriously, the impending layoff is really hurting because I was already stretching myself to work in engineering. I'm an English/Art/Music person and technology makes my brain hurt so badly, but I recognize I need to be competent in it to survive in this world. I'd been so proud of branching out of my element and doing well. Everyone likes me and I work fast.

I'm currently working as a Technical Writer for a DoD engineering contractor. The really galling thing is I'd been promised a better entry level job, Technical Writer I, two years ago. I currently have the title of Admin I. *sigh* I was certain I was going to get the title change and big raise that goes with it this year. Instead, I got a 3.9% cost of living raise and a "You might want to start looking." I find it hard to believe that a company so big it needs to hire 300 new people a year has no documents for a Junior Tech writer. This is a really bad time to be young. I'm competing against people with 25 years of experience and there's no contest. I'm scared stupid, and the uncertainty is starting to infect other aspects of my life.

[73. BDB said the following at 5:15 PM on Nov 5:]

73

Carol (#70) wrote:

>>I get frustrated with men who declare that they never read, or who haven't a clue how our government works. <<

No kidding! How do these people ever learn to make ideas their servant instead of their master?

However, I try to remind myself that I didn't really get how ideas are powerful until graduate school, when an economic history professor was able to stitch together how technological ideas resulted in societal change.

We didn't have knights in shining armor before the invention of the stirrup, for example...and that technological invention gave rise to the military-agricultural complex we call Feudalism in the middle ages in Europe.

But...these are all things that can be learned. There's a few women I know who are great Christians who never read. But after a year or so of conversations, they realize that there's things that can be learned from books.

(I kinda blame state colleges that don't seem to attract passionate, idea-driven professors who like to teach, but that's another discussion...)

[74. BDB said the following at 5:23 PM on Nov 5:]

74

Loris (#72) wrote:

>>I'm an English/Art/Music person and technology makes my brain hurt so badly, but I recognize I need to be competent in it to survive in this world.<<

Hmmm...yes, I was just thinking that same thing about an Intermediate Accounting class I'm taking. When am I EVER going to need to calculate the present value of leasing a 757 aircraft? No fun at all...

But, you're right, engineering types need people who can write for them. I know someone who did her engineering degree and now edits books. Turns out she's good at it because she has a personality that works well with a certain famous author who is...um...difficult to work with. The famous person's lawyer and agent both really like her as an editor, and she gets along with the talent better than previous editors, so has been asked for to edit a few books now.

I wonder if there are Internet companies who need people to write stuff. They might even allow you to work out of your home. They seem to have a lot of software engineers. I'm sure they'd appreciate someone who has learned enough engineering to be comfortable talking with engineers.

[75. Kelly-1 said the following at 6:40 PM on Nov 5:]

75

64. Last One Home said :

" But to him, the line after which he "gets in trouble" IS kissing"

I learned this the hard way through a couple of relationships. Women in general can quite happily kiss for a while and then put on the brakes. It's no trouble at all to stop; we've enjoyed the closeness but have no intention of it going further.

From what I've been told, for the majority of men, a kiss is a 'promise' that something more is going to happen. And that it's extremely difficult for them to stop. (So it can spiral into a cajoling/begging/angry scenario when you want to stop and he doesn't.)

The moral of the story?

If you kiss him, he'll expect to go all the way.

Unless, of course, you have a very frank discussion up front about dating expectations, and this only happens with the type of gentleman that you would find reading Boundless. It's all too rare in the world. :(

[76. Katharine said the following at 9:12 PM on Nov 5:]

76

Loris,

From personal experience: I strongly, strongly recommend the book Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs. His basic premise is that instead of worrying about where you stand in your relationship or whether your husband is willing to meet your needs, focus on meeting HIS needs. If your husband is at all good-willed, he will respond positively to your attempts to bless him.

Eggerichs goes on to outline some basic needs that men and women have (that are quite different!). Before anyone jumps on me that that's "lumping everyone together," yes, it is. But a *general* idea of the needs and perspectives of *most* guys is a much better starting place than nothing at all!

It was an EXTREMELY eye-opening book for me and has strengthened my relationship with my fiance quite a bit. I understand him better when he gets frustrated with me for something I didn't realize I did, and have also begun to see the ways in which he *does* choose to serve me but I didn't recognize before (since I speak "girl" and he speaks "guy")! In general we have less conflict and more common ground than before.

[77. Hunter W said the following at 10:12 PM on Nov 5:]

77

Last One (#64)

One of the core values of a man is to be a provider for his wife and children. And when I say core I mean this is part of our DNA. Work existed before the fall - God told Adam to work the garden and tend to the animals. It has been there since the beginning. My guess is your beau doesn't feel like he can provide for you in a Godly/Manly way while in school. My advice: put up with it and encourage him every way you can or cut bait now. If you communicate to him the frustration you've communicated on here it will wear on him and eventually wound him and he'll likely push you away. You'll make him feel like a failure at being a man. He sounds like a great guy - figure it out now. What's more important to you - being married to THIS man? Or being married?

Loris (#67)

I sounds like you've got a lot of hurt going on. Have you ever seen a counselor? I just went through counseling where I went by the session and not by the hour. Sometimes I'd be there for 3 or 4 hours. It was AMAZING. We could peel away the layers and really get at the heart of the issue in the moment while the process was going on. I was in counseling several years ago and found it pretty useless (hence why I went back recently). This time around was good and I was able to stab at the heart of the issue and really take time to explore those hurts and figure out how to repair them. I think one-on-one counseling (without your husband there) might do your marriage well.

I once heard a story/parable about a wealthy man and his wife. He was one of the riches men in area and everyone expected him to have his choice of brides. He chose a woman who "had below average looks and a below average pedigree". But the rich man saw something in this woman that he adored so he sought permission to marry her. Everyone in their village thought this was scandalous and thought the bride price would be a pittance. However, he delivered 10 cows and 1 bull for the dowry - the largest price ever paid. Suddenly everyone looked at this woman differently - who was this woman that would command such a high price? The rich man paid what he thought she was worth. Your husband sees you as being worth the highest bride price ever paid. It sounds like you don't see yourself that way - why?

[78. BDB said the following at 10:43 PM on Nov 5:]

78

Recently I attended a scholarship recognition for some first-year college students who were recently emancipated from the foster-care system. What that basically means is that they turned 18 and graduated from high school, so they are own their own.

I mean totally, completely, on their own. Their parents are not in the picture, whether due to substance abuse or other child abuse and neglect. They are literally, facing the world alone at 18.

I noticed something interesting about how they interact with older adults: they force themselves to approach them and ask questions. When they realize that someone is willing to share what they know - such as about choosing a major in college, they are extremely attentive listeners.

I came to realize that these scholarship kids stayed out of trouble by making a decision, they are NOT going to make the mistakes their parents made that got them into this situation. Which means they make an effort to learn from others. They are essentially piecing together a theory of how life should work alone. I was amazed at how many of them had chosen to major in sociology. It seems that this is because the first person to really take an interest in their life was their case manager/social worker, who explained how THEY became a social worker. So they arrive at college with an idea of what to do next.

In a larger sense, I think that some of this consumer mentality in relationships is a symptom of the high divorce rate. People know they can't follow in their parent's footsteps because it didn't work, and they know their parents were theoretically in love enough to get married. But to avoid running into the same problems, they're trying to figure out a different way of doing things.

Once they feel they've figured out a range of what is a good thing, then they may be confident enough to decide what type of person to pursue, or to allow to pursue them.

[79. Mike said the following at 7:30 AM on Nov 6:]

79

Sigh. I grow so bored with the untrue stereotype that men aren't interested in long-term relationships or marriage because they get all their needs met without commitment.

The opposite is the truth. In repeated surveys, it's the MEN who are interested in marriage, moreso than the women. For example, In an analysis of 1,200 personal ads in 1988, sociologist Theresa Montini found that most were placed by thirty-five-year-old heterosexual men and the vast majority "wanted a long-term relationship". When Great Expectations, the nation's largest dating service [at the time], surveyed its members in 1988, it found that 93 percent of the men wanted, within one year, to have either "a commitment with one person" or marriage. Only 7 percent of the men said they were seeking "lots of dates with different people."

I've observed the same thing myself on the dating sites today. Take a look at ChristianCafe.com. The vast majority of the women have as their relationship goals things like "Just Curious", "Hoping to Start a Relationship", "Open to Possibilities", or "Wherever God Leads". Many more of the men choose "Marriage Minded" than the women. And in my sampling of the women's comments, many will say things like, "I'm looking for someone who can be friends first, and then we'll see where it leads." BARF!

So please stop slamming the men for "consumerism" or a lack of intentionality. It doesn't line up with the facts.

Just my personal ax to grind.

[80. Tami said the following at 9:48 AM on Nov 6:]

80

Hi Mike (79) -- I too agree that men too often get hammered with the "they don't want a relationship" stick, and that it's quite frequently an untrue and unfair assumption. However, a couple of things:

1. The Montini survey is, now, 20 years old. There are people who became adults, since the survey was conducted, who grew up in a completely different environment with different assumptions about marriage and divorce. I wonder what the results would be now, if she updated her research by surveying this new generation.

2. Speaking as a woman, I think that the reason women put "Just Curious", "Hoping to Start a Relationship", "Open to Possibilities", or "Wherever God Leads" -- for the most part -- is that they don't want to scare guys off; whereas, if a guy puts "Marriage Minded," it's a *draw* for Christian women. The same for the comments about being friends first. I acknowledge that this is VERY annoying to men. However, in an online environment (and anyone can surf Christian Cafe, as it's not a private service), I (personally) would be nervous about saying "Yes I want marriage!" because you have no idea about who's contacting you.

[81. Loris said the following at 10:05 AM on Nov 6:]

81

Hunter W., BDB, Katherine, Thanks for the advice and kind words. I'm sorry to be spilling everywhere, but I'm very discouraged.

About the not-connecting thing, my husband just came back last night from visiting friends. He had time off, I didn't. He told me he talked a long time with an older woman, the mother of a peer. She said she had observed the dynamic of our relationship and advised us not to have children until we were acting more like lovers and less like lazy master and slaving housekeeper. Ouch. If it's that obvious to people we don't see often, how bad must it be? As far as counseling goes, we've never had counseling together. Our engagement was entirely long-distance. I met with my pastor for 8 weeks. He got one breakfast with his pastor. The gist of that conversation was the pastor telling Mr. Loris to be considerate in bed. Of all the things he could have said, that was probably the least helpful.

And no, Hunter W, I don't think much of myself. I don't see why I should. I'm not that big a deal. If I had never existed, something or someone else would have happened in my husband's life that would have been different, but probably just fine. I've already taken a huge beating by life circumstances when I was a teen that was beyond demoralizing. I'm tired of having to train my whimsical, non-linear brain to process directly and logically because if I don't, and I get asked how I came to X conclusion (which happens often), my explanation will sound insane, even if my conclusion is correct. I'm tired of being talented in areas that nobody around me values, cooking excepted. It's incredibly frustrating to have great homemaking skills, but little marketable. I could give piano lessons, do English tutoring, and sew and tailor for petty cash, but in a bad recession those things are luxuries. I'm an old soul, plus I've had some very hard things happen to my family that matured me rapidly. I feel like I'm 40. My husband's younger than I am, and I'm acutely aware that I'm no fun. I've loosened up a lot since moving out of my parents' household, where the hard things are yet ongoing, but I'm still old and no fun. So with all of those aspects accurate, I don't understand why I shouldn't be hard on myself. The only good thing about me is that I'm made in God's image. It's only honest, imo, to admit that my particular configuration of the Image is pretty banged up and has some strange functions.

[82. Jeremiah said the following at 10:52 AM on Nov 6:]

82

Tami (#80): "I (personally) would be nervous about saying "Yes I want marriage!" because you have no idea about who's contacting you."

Ugh... (...banging my head against the door as I type.)

[83. BDB said the following at 10:59 AM on Nov 6:]

83

Hunter W (#77) is referring to the legend of Johnny Lingo.

[84. Jo said the following at 11:26 AM on Nov 6:]

84

Oh Loris. You do sound really discouraged.

"The only good thing about me is that I'm made in God's image. It's only honest, imo, to admit that my particular configuration of the Image is pretty banged up and has some strange functions."

*Wry smile* Those things are true of all of us. Really, they are. Some of us have been through more damaging things - and it sounds like you've had some really difficult stuff to get through - but all of us are banged up with strange functions, and all of us are still loved and accepted by the one person who knows exactly what we should have looked like and how far we fall short. Even when it's damaged, His image is still beautiful.

I don't know you, so anything I say will sound like empty words probably, but I really would encourage you to really talk to your husband about this stuff and look into some kind of counselling together.

And do not feel like you're failing just because you're having problems in your relationship. You're two damaged, banged up people, and connecting and relating with one another is going to be tough at times. You're going to annoy and upset each other and you're going to find it hard to love each other sometimes too. No couple is immune to that. I'm not an expert on marriage, but you only need to observe people in general to know that living with another human being is never going to be an easy ride all the time.

I'm really sorry you're feeling so down on yourself, please do talk to someone. You're so loved, and so precious to God - and I'm guessing to your husband too. I'll be praying for you both.

[85. BDB said the following at 11:34 AM on Nov 6:]

85

Loris (#81) wrote:

>>Our engagement was entirely long-distance.<<

OK - that makes sense.

I have friends who spent a significant amount of time apart before getting married. When they were back in the same town again it was definitely an adjustment.

Does your church have a newlyweds class or small group of some kind? They're very handy. Usually they're for couples who've been married less than 5 years because they're going through similar adjustments.

Some friends of mine run the one at my church. Adjustments are quite common, but different for everyone.

The Eggrich's book on Love and Respect is a good starting point for conversation. They also have a web page. Of course, FOTF has a ton of stuff for married people, too.

[86. Sarah P. said the following at 12:22 PM on Nov 6:]

86

Loris (#81) said: And no, Hunter W, I don't think much of myself. I don't see why I should. I'm not that big a deal.

Loris, that is simply not true. You are a huge deal, because God wove you in your mother's womb, died for you, and called you to be His own. You are worth just as much in God's sight as your charismatic husband. God cherishes your artistic gifts. You only have to look at a sunrise or sunset to know that.

Do you believe that God loves you? To God, you have never been a "rebound" relationship. He chose you personally. And you don't have to be your husband for him to love you! If God wanted you to be your husband, He would have made you him!

God bless.

[87. Loris said the following at 10:21 AM on Nov 7:]

87

Please pray for me. I've contacted our pastor about counseling. Rough times ahead for sure. Neither of us is going anywhere, and neither of us has cheated or abused the other, but he has hurt me in pretty much every other way. No way forward but through the mess.

[88. Loris said the following at 7:31 AM on Nov 9:]

88

Sorry for calling out the cavalry, folks. I do still need prayer, but the weekend troubles turned out to be much less than initially advertised. After much discussion and distress, we've agreed that counseling is still a good idea that we'll pursue, but there's really no need to panic.

[89. Nate said the following at 9:24 AM on Nov 9:]

89

Loris (87):

Trust me, I have been. The fact you guys are seeking help is a great step in the right direction. Commitment + God = healed relationships.

Don't ever give up.

--NMM

[90. Andrea-Elena said the following at 10:55 AM on Nov 9:]

90

Nate,

If one could "radiate" Christ through blog comments, you just did. I like how you encouraged our sister in Christ. You demonstrate that just because one has been through the mess and has come out of it pretty banged up, all hope is not lost -- there still is much hope. You show that God does redeem the broken pieces. (Reminds me of Selah's song "Unredeemed" from their new album.)

Anyway, just wanted to know that you impressed me with a few sentences. Thanks for being part of the family here!!

Loris,

I echo Nate, though I haven't walked where either of you have. Keep holding on: holding on to Jesus and to your husband. God makes ways where we cannot see one to be -- streams in the desert, bitter waters to sweet.

He knows the way you take, and He walks with you. You will come out of the mess all the shinier to reflect Christ. (See Job 23:10.)