More on Early Marriage
by Steve Watters on 08/25/2009 at 2:00 PM
I posted recently about the Christianity Today cover story, "The Case for Early Marriage."
That article was written by Dr. Mark Regnerus, a professor at the University of Texas. Some of Mark's insights on the age of first marriage have been influenced by his colleague, Dr. Norval Glenn. I posted a blog earlier about Dr. Glenn's findings on later marriage in a research study he wrote called "With this Ring..." At the time of that study, he reported being surprised to discover some downsides to later marriage, but that he believed the issue would benefit from more study. I'm glad to see that he took on that study and has now compiled it in a paper he recently presented called "Later First Marriage and Marital Success."
The paper begins by explaining why such research is important:
In recent years about half of all first marriages of females, and well over half of all first marriages of males, have been at age 25 or older, the estimated median age at first marriage in 2005 being 27.1 for men and 25.3 for women (U. S. Census Bureau, 2006) — a condition that makes normative and typical what used to be considered late marriage. It also makes assessing the outcomes of later marriage, and understanding the reasons for those outcomes, important for practical reasons, as persons decide whether or not to participate in the trend to later marriage, and as third parties, such as parents and counselors, decide on the wisdom of encouraging later marriage. Understanding the reasons for the marital outcomes for persons who marry relatively late is also important for a general understanding of the bases for marital success.
The paper concludes with findings that are key for twentysomethings who wonder if they are ready for marriage:
The findings of this study do indicate that for most persons, little or nothing in the way of marital success is likely to be gained by deliberately delaying marriage beyond the mid twenties. For instance, a 25 year old person who meets an excellent marriage prospect would be ill-advised to pass up that opportunity only because he/she feels not yet at the ideal age for marriage. Furthermore, delaying marriage beyond the mid twenties will lead to the loss during a portion of young adulthood of any emotional and health benefits that a good marriage would bring (Waite and Gallagher, 2000). On the other hand, it is extremely important to stress that the findings of this study should not lead anyone of any age to panic and thus make a bad choice of a spouse.
Well said.
1. Michelle said the following at 2:59 PM on Aug 25:
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I appreciate the focus on early marriage...however, how about also offering encouragement to those who are mid-twenties or older, preparing for marriage but not with that possibility yet in sight?
2. Scott said the following at 3:50 PM on Aug 25:
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Excellent study! My parents certainly have mentioned the "you really shouldn't think about marrying until you're 28 or so", and even though it "sounds" wise (certainly it's easy to pretend our future selves are much more smarter, mature, etc etc etc), it may not be true.
I like this and I definitely think people should be thinking about marriage earlier.
3. ayako said the following at 4:00 PM on Aug 25:
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I need to share this with everyone in my church so that there'll be less 27-year old guys (or 35 for that matter) idling and girls/women being frustrated.
4. Marilyn said the following at 4:54 PM on Aug 25:
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As an "old married" person, I have to weigh in. Next month I will celebrate 33 years of marriage to the same man.
I think that a wise choice at any age is better than setting an arbitrary age deadline. Many very young people have done fine in marriage, many who delay still fail. It's the choice...not the age.
Sadly my youngest daughter is in the process of undoing all her wedding plans for next month. I can advise young people to make good choices at any age, yet still feel a sense of hopelessness for my daughter (hoping she won't be left single forever!). Strange...
5. Becci said the following at 4:59 PM on Aug 25:
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I echo Michelle's comments. It's all very well promoting the benefits of early marriage but for many people when they meet their marriage partner is not something that they have much control over. I have been ready to marry and actively pursuing marriage for the past 6 years, yet at the age of 30 I have not met the right person, despite the fact that I would have loved to have married early. The best I can do is wait patiently for God to work. Promoting surveys that remind us that we are missing out on the emotional and health benefits of marriage is unhelpful.
6. ayako said the following at 5:42 PM on Aug 25:
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I feel that we don't have to take this so personally - we could be informed about this issue while we're still single at 28, still looking & waiting. Boundless actually has provided encouragement for those who are still "looking and waiting" intentionally yet find themselves with no spouse after years of doing so. Yes it is discouraging and hard to hear benefits of early marriages when I'm still single at 28, but I think that to acknowledge this issue and to bring attention of young people (and churches) is necessary and valuable.
7. EmilyM said the following at 5:52 PM on Aug 25:
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Becci (5) wrote: "Promoting surveys that remind us that we are missing out on the emotional and health benefits of marriage is unhelpful."
I do realize this is unhelpful to some, but for me, this blog was encouraging as I, a 21 year old, am planning my wedding. Boundless can't always be helpful to every reader.
8. B.T.Carolus said the following at 6:49 PM on Aug 25:
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Michelle #1 and Becci #5: I'd like to point out that there are thousands of people, of all ages, who read this blog and the accompanying webzine. Some of us are indeed helped when the writers decide to go about "Promoting surveys that remind us that we are missing out on the emotional and health benefits of marriage." And in fact the entire Christian community will be helped if the idea of not waiting forever to be married becomes normatized (something that promoting these surveys [it's actually a study, btw] will help to do). It might also be helpful if you take note of the fact that there are hundreds (probably thousands) of articles and blog posts on the line, and I'm sure that at least a few of them address things that are of interest, guidance, and encouragement to you.
Steve: Does there happen to be a citation for that study?
9. Becky said the following at 7:08 PM on Aug 25:
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I agree with both Marilyn and Becci. I married one month before my 32nd birthday, not because I purposely waited but because that is when the right person came along. I know no one who purposely postponed marriage. I just lived my life, went out on dates, trusted God and it happened when it happened. This idea that my marriage is more likely to fail or not be as good because I wasn't some "magical" age is annoying and an insult.
10. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:18 PM on Aug 25:
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I agree that a twenty-five year old who desires marriage should serious consider "an excellent marriage prospect."
But...how does one define "excellent?"
What would be an great opportunity for one person might be totally wrong for someone else.
Best of luck to all those on this blog who are seeking marriage partners.
11. Elizabeth H. (Russia) said the following at 8:34 PM on Aug 25:
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As Michelle and Becci alluded to, I think you may have picked the wrong audience. A lot of readers on here are already anxious about still being single. As women, we worry about our biological clocks, and I'm sure guys have their own set of worries.
It's the kind of message that should be saved for disapproving relatives or other members of society who do not support marrying young.
12. James said the following at 8:43 PM on Aug 25:
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Becci (5), yeah I concur... I hit 30 later this yr. But I'm wondering, what health benefits am I missing out on by being single? Is it just assumed that single people don't eat healthy?...and that married couples do?
13. O from Canada said the following at 9:24 PM on Aug 25:
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I think the closing of the conclusion of the study is very nice:
"it is extremely important to stress that the findings of this study should not lead anyone of any age to panic and thus make a bad choice of a spouse."
Not delaying marriage should be encouraged, but one also does not need to panic and think you have missed the mark because you didn't marry early enough.
Of course not everyone will be in the position to marry "early", but obviously this is speaking on not deliberately deciding to marry at an arbitrary late date when there are opportunities now.
14. Carey said the following at 10:59 PM on Aug 25:
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I agree with Becci. I am now 30 and I would have loved to marry early, but for myself and far too many women in this day and age, we did not have that choice.
15. Jo said the following at 12:51 AM on Aug 26:
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Everyone I know who's got married 'early' (under 21) has married someone at least 5 years older. I just don't know any couple who have married when both were that young.
Dunno if that's relevant, just thought I'd throw it out there.
16. Kim said the following at 5:16 AM on Aug 26:
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I have to agree with Michelle (#1) and Becci (#5), I'm about to hit the apparently magic age of 25 and I am not still single because I am deliberately delaying marriage. Quite the opposite.
I also agree with Marilyn (#4)- why can't we focus on preparing Christians to make wise marriage decisions rather than focus on getting them married before age 25? We do need to acknowledge that people that marry before the age of 25 are statistically more likely to get divorced. Did you know that 60% of the marriages in which couples are between 20 and 25 end in divorce?! I am not advocating for late marriage but let's keep in mind that the primary emphasis should be on making a WISE decision for marriage, regardless of your age.
In order to do this I think that if you're going to write articles extolling the virtues of young marriage, you also need to write articles that help young people discern whether or not they are currently prepared to pursue marriage, how they can "get there" if they are not, and how to discern God's will in the entire process.
17. Jeremiah said the following at 9:21 AM on Aug 26:
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I’m 32. I’ve never been married and very rarely go on dates. Like many people in my circle of Christian friends, I am frustrated about the advice on here that basically says, “go out and get married already.” What exactly do you think I’ve been trying to do for the past 8 to 10 years? I have a good job, a house, and no debt. All I need are viable Christian prospects. Where are they?
Sometimes I wonder if we are just much more picky as a generation than our parents and grandparents. For example, I run about three nights a week and am tall, thin, and relatively athletic. When I look around at the single women at my church they all look overweight to me. Very few of them prioritize exercise (or in many instances what they count as exercise is not what I would consider effective). I know that many of these women have good hearts and are equally frustrated by lack of dating prospects. It’s just that as a Christian guy, I know that relationships are extremely challenging. I have such a hard time setting it in my mind to “pursue” a woman that I don’t feel like is putting in the same amount of work ethic into their health and career. Is that unfair and unchristian of me? Is it so wrong to look for someone who is physically complementary in addition to the spiritual and mental match?
18. Jeremiah said the following at 9:30 AM on Aug 26:
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I just have to add, that most of the thin somewhat attractive Christian women, get an overwhelming amount of attention. It's like the situation from "Beautiful Mind". Every single guy wants to be with just one of two of the girls leaving the rest feeling frustrated. This is wrong. However, the other girls don't seem to want to do much to make themselves more appealing, either.
19. Celebrindal said the following at 9:59 AM on Aug 26:
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Becky (#9),
The study didn't say that there was a magical age, nor did it say that marriages that occurred among older people were more likely to fail. It just stated that "deliberately delaying marriage beyond the mid twenties" was not found to be better than marrying young (contrary to some people's belief that people must wait until a suitable (magical?) age before marrying). Really, it goes against the idea of a magical age for marriage. You'd be surprised how many people want to get married in their early twenties and are advised against "rushing into things" at their "young" age. While some people just don't find someone until their 30's or even later, there are people who can benefit from the finding that "young" marriages are not necessarily doomed to failure. The take home message here is to get married when you find the right person. Don't rush into things just to avoid being single, but don't delay once you've found the right person under the mistaken impression that mid twenties is too young.
20. ayako said the following at 10:16 AM on Aug 26:
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18:Jeremiah - yes, it happens a lot. In my guy friend's (strong believer, 27 & single) campus ministry back in college, this one girl was being liked by, like, 5 guys at once. She was devoted to ministry - and of course, pretty and thin.
21. Scott said the following at 10:36 AM on Aug 26:
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It happens both ways, I would say. Some people just have the natural disposition, looks, and personality to be a "charmer" to the opposite sex, especially when you're considering the early stages .
That's why both guys and girls should seek to get to know some of the "less attractive" (the ones who may not naturally get the guys or girls to flock to them) ones, and they'll usually discover someone who "fits" with them and find that their person is certainly very attractive, even if they may not radiate that to the general public. Remember, just gotta be attractive to one person in your love life. =)
22. Scott said the following at 10:48 AM on Aug 26:
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Two addendums, since I just thought of them: First, I'm not against the charmers, I am happy for them. I know there was a guy back in my college ministry who ever girl had a crush on had at some point. He was a really sweet guy, and now he's happily married. =)
Second, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I do this too, so I speak from experience, but don't read things into the post. It's meant to attack the thoughts of people who think "oh I need to get money get a house etc. and get more "mature"" before I can marry. I admit reading this does do the same prick of pain that I know others feel, the fact that you have a legitimate, godly desire and it seems like it may not be fulfilled; but part of growing as a person is being able to rejoice in the Lord and talk about tough areas even when you feel legitimate pain. Again, I speak from experience. =)
23. Rose said the following at 10:52 AM on Aug 26:
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@ Jeremiah - As I recall, gluttony is a sin. Perhaps there are reasons to be unsure about pursuing someone who has not been able to demonstrate that they can curb their sinful appetites?
24. Tami said the following at 10:53 AM on Aug 26:
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Jeremiah, I can't say for sure that all of us have ridiculously high standards, but sometimes I wonder if we're all looking over each others' shoulders or something.
I might frame it in terms of expectations. I see guys who have all sorts of good opportunities, and are surrounded by good women, and yet won't get involved with any of them because there's something "wrong" with all of them. (Likewise with women, though it's less frequent because I'm in situations where there are more women than men.) Yes, we won't be a perfect match with every person, but at the same time, NO ONE is perfect and you're going to have differences with anyone choose to date, even someone who initially seems to meet all your criteria.
I've been on the receiving end of this, where the guy I dated was looking more for what was wrong with me (and thus for any possible signs I wasn't his "soul mate"), rather than trying to build a relationship based on commonalities. While I would say it's definitely important to keep your eyes open for potential issues, I also think it's nearly impossible to make a relationship work if all you're focusing on is the differences you have with the person.
And yet, I understand that we all want to be with someone (a) to whom we're attracted, and (b) with whom we share values and interests. For example, if your physical health is a priority to you, then it would be really difficult for you to be with someone who doesn't at least make an honest effort to be fit. I definitely think this is a case where a loving mentor can help those women at your church see that some extra effort in the fitness department would be healthy for them on a number of levels. Also, it would be helpful if a mentor helped open the guys' eyes to the women other than those one or two who are viewed as the "prizes."
25. Anstice said the following at 10:56 AM on Aug 26:
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Jeremiah: "They all look over-weight to me" "...I don’t feel like [she] is putting in the same amount of work ethic into [her] health and career".
That may be true, but it could be some of the women are healthy and fit, but not "thin". It's possible to be fit, healthy and toned, and still look larger than other women who are "thin". Also, it may be that a woman has just started to care about fitness etc. but is still on the way, and so not as toned now as she will be some months down the line. It might be an idea to find out how they think/feel/act on fitness and health etc. before you write them off. There is an awful lot about a person that you can't tell just by looking.
26. Kay said the following at 11:01 AM on Aug 26:
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Um...as a thin girl who works out 6 days a week and is an avid runner can I just say that it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference to the guys in my church! At least, I don't guess it does since I am not being asked out by any of them. :) In fact, I do all I can to keep myself attractive on the outside AND the inside and still there's no "overwhelming amount of attention" here!
27. Julie said the following at 1:06 PM on Aug 26:
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My guess is that there are more men who are deliberately holding off marriage (or not feeling the urgency of it) than women. So I can see how this message could be helpful, especially to men who are delaying until they are financially set or completely done with their education. I helped my husband through school--no big deal, it was an adventure! It all worked out for me, and I married a great guy in my late 20s. But looking back, I did make mistakes, so I'll throw them out there in case any singles can benefit.
*I wish I'd had a copy of "Not Your Buddy." I allowed men to hang out with me without being intentional. I developed crushes on them, and spent all my energy hoping for more. They had not expressed open romantic interest. This was a time waster--I should have been deliberate about meeting more potential mates. Also, men, if you have crossed a woman off your list, don't keep hanging out with her and raising her hopes!
*I developed a very detailed checklist of what I wanted. Much of this was good stuff, based on what I knew had not worked in previous relationships. But the risk was in not being open to people and getting to know them even if I doubted they would be "the one." It's always good to get to know many people!
28. BDB said the following at 2:24 PM on Aug 26:
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Julie (#27) wrote:
>>I helped my husband through school--no big deal, it was an adventure! It all worked out for me, and I married a great guy in my late 20s.<<
If more women suggested this, fewer men would wait until they were financially "set."
In my grandparent's generation, the siblings took turns putting all six of them - men and women - through school. This was during the depression; they all worked jobs so that one sibling at a time could get through college or learn a trade.
But over the last 20 years, I know almost no one who has done this, or would even consider it. I know several women who also talk about owning a home first. It's a very pervasive idea - it does require a lot of financial discipline and responsibility to get there. Discipline is a good thing. But it's definitely worth challenging people to pray about whether God specifically told them to delay marriage until after they reached a specific financial milestone.
Or, for that matter, to only accept invitations from men who've met specific financial milestones. If women express that they're only interested in men who have achieved a job, car and house, then some men will listen to that and accomplish those things first. If women instead said that they'd be perfectly content starting out with nothing, like the WWII generation did, it would challenge men's thinking.
29. Louise from Chicago said the following at 2:38 PM on Aug 26:
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Comment 28, I was the only one working full-time the first few years of my marriage while my husband went to college.
Have you ever done this?
If it was "no big deal" for the lady in comment 27, well, good for her, but I found it to be a difficult situation.
And...look how things turned out!
30. Tami said the following at 2:50 PM on Aug 26:
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I agree with both BDB and Louise.
If the guy has good character and a specific goal, I think the woman helping the husband as he goes through school is fine. I've seen this happen successfully, especially when the husband's in seminary or a specific grad school program.
On the other hand, the guy could use it as a validation for prolonging his own lack of responsibility. Plus I think a lot of women may, in their hearts, have the fear that the guy will divorce them after he feels he got what he wanted from her. Unfortunately, that happens.
Again, depends on the guy's character, and how the woman views her role in the marriage.
31. Julie said the following at 3:39 PM on Aug 26:
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Re: putting a husband through school. I suppose it depends on when you want children, how simply you're willing to live, how much the wife enjoys her job. If God is leading two people together, I guess I don't see why they need to wait for their education to be done. Also, I don't see why it's essential to own a house before marriage or even before having a child.
32. BDB said the following at 3:46 PM on Aug 26:
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Tami (#30) wrote:
>>Plus I think a lot of women may, in their hearts, have the fear that the guy will divorce them after he feels he got what he wanted from her. Unfortunately, that happens.<<
So...here is the dilemma. People choose to avoid the risk by waiting until after others have finished their schooling and gotten financially established.
Of course, once people finish, they are more attractive. There are unfortunately a lot of affairs among pastors and doctors. Those professions can often result in men getting lots of postive attention from women they meet in the course of their employment. I think Dr. Dobson has written about this in fact - his wife is frustrated at home because he spends so much time at work; but the women he meets at work make him feel so valued...makes it seem easier to move on...
I say "seem," because as Dobson points out, even when people have an affair that ends in divorce, they then set up a new "straight life" and can end up in exactly the same humdrum life situation. The problem isn't their spouse, it's that their expectations for what life ought to be like are at variance with reality.
Though it's always more pleasant to come home to someone kind.
And, for the record, among older generations I know more people who are eternally grateful to their spouse for supporting them when they were young and had nothing, and they never forget it. I don't think the risks associated with putting someone through school are any greater than, say, whether someone will stick around if their spouse gets a serious illness.
But there again, I know some people with serious chronic illnesses that make it a point to communicate how thankful they are fr their family's support, and some patients who become really nasty and bitter. It's always easier to live with kindness.
33. Julie said the following at 6:44 PM on Aug 26:
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I wonder if the conservative focus on men being breadwinners and women being more oriented toward home might be backfiring when it comes to early marriage. I could not have married a man who still had years of graduate school ahead if I had not had my own career and financial independence. Well, maybe unless we'd taken out lots of student loans. This is just one reason why I think it is in every woman's interest to gain an education and financial independence.
34. Amelia said the following at 8:54 PM on Aug 26:
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I'd just like to say that I, like EmilyM (#7) found this post very encouraging. I'm 21, and have been married for 2 years already. While many people have been loving and supportive, many are skeptical or judging of us being so young (my husband is only 6 months older than me). I feel that these people would be happier if we had have waited (why?) until we were 25 or older. I'm happy that this study does not support that view, and that Boundless is bringing it to our attention.
Kim (#16) said: why can't we focus on preparing Christians to make wise marriage decisions rather than focus on getting them married before age 25?
I thought that was one of Boundless' main focuses? Plenty of articles and blog posts here are helpful in that regard!
35. James said the following at 9:59 PM on Aug 26:
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Jeremiah (17), I hear ya man. But you correctly pointed out that a lack of attention on one's health, generally can also represent an overall lack of effort in other areas as well. Not always of course, but in this case...appearances do say something. You also cant will yourself to be physically attracted to someone if you're just not (i've tried), so I wouldn't feel bad about that. How about signing up for online dating services? I plan to do that early next yr (I'll have turned 30).
36. Callie said the following at 3:07 AM on Aug 27:
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Some of you who are older and feeling frustrated about this discussion, know that a great deal of the rebuke has been toward the church, not the singles.
Dr. Albert Mohler has a great discussion about this very article, in which he constantly challenges the church to change from a worldly perspective on marriage and family formation, to one that's more biblically wise and considerate of a woman's natural fertility. Candice even makes a little appearance. You can listen here.
Most of the voices who are advocating earlier marriages are aware that our generation has a real uphill battle when it comes to getting married. The conversation is not so much a critique on you and your circumstances, but more a call to our parents, mentors, and church family to encourage us towards marriage instead of away from it.
We're all responsible for our choices and actions as individuals, but if people we love and respect are encouraging our generation to delay marriage for seemingly wise reasons, then that's what is going to happen on the broad spectrum. Dr. Mohler, Dr. Regnerus, and the Boundless team are well aware of this reality.
The argument for encouraging earlier marriages is just as good for the 30 year old as it is the 21 one year old because the whole premise is that as a body of believers, WE need to change in order to help facilitate the formation of healthy new marriages. These voices are truly on your side! Be encouraged that they know the difficulties our generation faces and they are trying to do something to help!
37. Loris said the following at 7:09 AM on Aug 27:
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I married a week shy of 21, and my husband had just turned 19. Talk about starting out with nothing! We've been married nearly four years now and just bought our first house. Many people will point to the fact that my husband only had one year of college when we married and didn't go back. Yes, that will hurt him down the road, but he emphatically didn't want to go back to college, and his job, which he loves, doesn't require a degree. (I have a BA.) We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. If someday it happens that I make enough to support us, he will go to school and look after any children we may have. It would be an honor to put him through school.
38. Elisabeth said the following at 8:41 AM on Aug 27:
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Great (and encouraging) comment, Callie. Thanks!
39. Matt said the following at 9:31 AM on Aug 27:
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Well Jeremiah, there are different people out there for everyone.
There is a range in physical attractiveness to me. If a girl is too pretty she isn't attractive to me. However, if she's horribly overweight she isn't attractive.
However, it is like the article , Brother, You're Like a Six(http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001371.cfm). I'm not the most fit guy out there so I don't expect that from potential matches.
In fact, it is scary that all the girls that I'm matched with on E*harmony all have some variation about being physically active is important to them. I don't know if there is some blog post out there saying that guys like Jeremiah will be scared right off unless they put that in their profile or if it is actually true.
Like most things in life, there is a balance. Not taking care of yourself at all is bad. But, overly caring about taking care of yourself physically but not taking care of the least of these is bad as well. In fact, it may be worse.
40. BDB said the following at 9:45 AM on Aug 27:
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Loris (#37) - Congratulations!
As far as education, fields can change to require a degree. A friend of mine was a VP at a company in charge of facilities. When the company closed, he ran into huge problems with HR departments who couldn't comprehend how he could get to that level without a degree. The answer was that he was good at construction and administration and rose by being a good craftsman and being able to manage other craftsmen.
That said, there are a lot of education options now that make it easy to go back later - without the distractions (e.g. drunken partying) that accompanies going straight to college from high school. Many of the older (mid-20's and higher) students who go back are much more focused and disciplined later on. And it can be done one course at a time while still working.
41. Ted Slater said the following at 10:42 AM on Aug 27:
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B.T.Carolus (#8) -- You asked, "Does there happen to be a citation for that study?" I may be misunderstanding your question, but I'll try to answer it.
In his post, Steve identifies the author as Norval Glenn. You can find some of his work here.
The first study of his that Steve references is "With This Ring ... A National Survey on Marriage in America" and the newer paper, just presented this month in San Francisco, is titled "Later First Marriage and Marital Success."
I don't believe Norval Glenn's most recent paper is online yet.
You can also find marriage-related research and findings at The National Marriage Project's site.
FWIW, I think it's fine to call some of these studies "surveys." The author includes that term in his title, after all.
42. Loris said the following at 11:52 AM on Aug 27:
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Thanks BDB #40! We're delighted with our new place. 1860 sq ft brick house built 1965 with original hardwood floors. Now we just have to finish putting our stuff away and do something about the lack of closet space...
As far as education goes, I am concerned about his lack of degree hurting him if the scenario you mentioned comes up. I make 25% less than he does even though I have a degree. My job does have upward mobility, but there's no promotion in sight for me, and I'm not holding my breath. So if he needed to find a new job, we would probably run into trouble because I can't support us on my salary. Thank goodness his job is secure and his certifications are up to date!
43. BDB said the following at 12:32 PM on Aug 27:
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Loris (42) wrote:
>>and his certifications are up to date!<<
Yes! I'm a big fan of certifications. While it's true that not everone is suited for a liberal arts degree, there are lots of hands-on certification programs. Someone who works in a craftsmanship field can always improve their job performance/security/promotion opportunities by getting certified for OSHA safety, whether the 10-hour course or a "root cause" accident investigation course. Supervisors are legally required to be responsible for the safety of their employees - the certification courses are a nice way to demonstrate a commitment to safety.
The thing to keep in mind is that eduation compresses experience into a smaller time frame. In any field, there are problems that must be dealt with. An education in the field teaches one to recognize these things rather than letting them fester. If it's the first time someone sees a problem, their experience hasn't prepared them for the sitution and they may ignore it because they don't understand why it's important.
A lot of executives have gone to jail because they didn't realize what they were doing was fraud. Studying some fraud case studies might have made them realize a problem with they came across it. Personally, I think this is why so many ministries fail due to financial mismanagement: no training in recognizing poor financial management practices.
Now I'm talking like an auditor again.
44. Jeremiah said the following at 12:55 PM on Aug 27:
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Callie #36: "Some of you who are older and feeling frustrated about this discussion, know that a great deal of the rebuke has been toward the church, not the singles."
What about dads? I have been in several situations where otherwise Godly Christian fathers have been part of the problem. I understand the importance of having a mature Christian male involved in the courtship process. But what about those Christian fathers who don’t want to give up their daughters, EVER? Either that or they have created unreal expectations within their daughters hearts and minds? (happens a lot IMO)
45. Sarah P. said the following at 1:17 PM on Aug 27:
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BDB (#40): Many of the older (mid-20's and higher) students who go back are much more focused and disciplined later on. And it can be done one course at a time while still working.
Very true. In fact, that's what I'm doing right now -- starting an MFA in Screenwriting via distance learning, one class at a time. The best part? It's a terminal degree, so I'll be qualified for all sorts of fascinating teaching experiences when I'm done! I think I would like to turn around and teach screenwriting DL and in local seminars, which would mesh well with working from home most of the time. :)
46. Sarah P. said the following at 1:20 PM on Aug 27:
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You know, the most puzzling thing for me about this whole discussion is when people say that 25 is "young" to get married. I am 25, and I don't feel particularly young. I've been watching people all around me get married for some time now!
My mom got married when she was 19. Of course, she already had her Master's. :P
47. Scott said the following at 1:49 PM on Aug 27:
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Jeremiah, excuse me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you have a lot of pent-up frustration toward the female gender (from the comments that I've read). I understand the feeling, as I'm a guy who has basically a bunch of swing-and-misses in his repertoire of dating experience. However, I would advise that you find a good friend/mentor to unpack these issues to and that you pray that God can change your heart toward women toward one of respect and honor, even if marriage will elude you the rest of your life. Trust me, I understand and I certainly have felt some of your frustrations, but we still need to treat our ladyfriends with respect and seek to build them up as sisters, even if none of them want to be our girlfriend and/or future wife.
If I am wrong, then I will stand corrected and I apologize, but as someone who certainly battles a lot of frustrations with women, I feel like I resonate with ya.
48. Tami said the following at 2:12 PM on Aug 27:
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Sarah P (46) wrote: "I am 25, and I don't feel particularly young. I've been watching people all around me get married for some time now!"
Same was true for me at 25. Now that I am... no longer 25 ;) I still feel the same way. Except older and generally wiser :)
49. Jeremiah said the following at 2:41 PM on Aug 27:
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Scott (#47). Frustration is probably the right word. I don’t feel like I am holding on to any deep seated issues that can’t be easily healed. However, God’s timing and providence has left me baffled at many points. In terms of mentorship, I’m not sure if I can take any more “advice” from others Christians that come from a vastly different place in terms of experiences (i.e., older men that grew up in a very different culture). Regardless, perhaps my comments here are not always edifying. For that I ask for your forgiveness and grace.
50. Kellie said the following at 3:04 PM on Aug 27:
50
Re #17 and 18: A house, a good job, and no debt do not mean a person is ready for or entitled to marriage. My husband had one of the above when we married, and has been a wonderful husband and together we have all three.
Please realize that looks are not everything. I am a thin person and do not exercise much and I have friends who run marathons who are much heavier than me.
51. Trevor Dolby said the following at 4:37 PM on Aug 27:
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Jo (15): I think your observation is very relevant; I'm curious to know if it's usually the man who's older? It would be understandable if girls < 21 preferred a man who already had some results in life to prove he's a good bet . . .
Then again, with girls getting the highest A-level results (think SAT scores if you're in the U.S. (or ACT scores if you're in the Midwest)) and so on, maybe the reverse is becoming true, too :)
52. Kelly said the following at 6:39 PM on Aug 27:
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Jeremiah - your posts resonate with me, because I often find myself thinking/feeling similar things. (I bet if we were in the same city, we'd be a great match! ;))
Just wanted to give you some encouragement that there ARE single women out there in churches who are fit, physically attractive (as defined by Hollywood), and financially set. But then again, if I look at my single brothers and sisters who have also hit that ~30 age mark, and realise that a lot of them don't seem to take care of themselves.
I wonder if it's because we were the 'wallflowers' when we were younger (I was painfully shy in high school although I'm the complete opposite these days) and it took us a while to grow into ourselves? But some could never let go of who they thought they were?
53. a sassy sister said the following at 7:32 PM on Aug 27:
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to Kelly and Jeremiah:
maybe a reason why your 30+ friends don't take care of themselves is deeper than sheer slothfulness? Sometimes people give up, and it's not always from not trying at all...
54. Kelly said the following at 8:48 PM on Aug 27:
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Sassy sister - good point. People do give up. It's hard work to stay fit (I've spent the last month dropping from size 8 to 6 to fit into (yet another!) bridesmaid dress. I'm exhausted.)
If you don't believe there are any prospects, then why would you bother looking extra-nice? When you look at the world and 'average' is normal (and most of those average people are married)?
Dating is EXHAUSTING. I've been doing it for far too long now.
55. CGuy said the following at 9:43 PM on Aug 27:
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As it has been said before on this blog, maybe Boundless can somehow facilitate dates. Just an
add on site - http://www.boundless.org/dates/notjustcoffee/nopeterpansoretts/intentional with profiles, events, maps,
"who's online" notification and gps tracking.
Everyone has to chip in donations of course to pay for the upgrades.
56. IMO said the following at 7:37 AM on Aug 28:
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Kelly,
OR maybe some people have decided to pursue (what they think) are great and better things. Maybe they are really involved in ministry, work, (fill in the blank)...
Maybe some people have made fitness and looking really nice an IDOL and have decided to shift focus.
You don't know the reasons people who what they do, unless you ask them.
And yes, while staying in good shape honors the Lord, there are lots of things that honor the Lord as well.
By the way, I am in shape. And I do take care of myself. But I'm going to defend the people who may not be as motivated or as interested as me or who don't put that time in. Hey, I could be using the time I put in the gym to be serving my community. So it's also about priorities and what God puts on your heart. People's interests change. So what? If you want to like them less for it, then so be it.
Look, there was a period in my life that I was truly a gym rat. And guess where all my focus and attention went to? I could have used that focus and attention on serving the Lord better. And not being so self-obsessed.
There can be a fine line between being fit and being obsessed with being fit. I only know a few people who are great at it. I admire them. But let's just remember that we really shouldn't be focusing on other people and whether or not they are in shape or not. WHO CARES? YOu sound like a tabloid!! Anyway sorry for this random rant, just trying to get my point across...maybe I haven't done that cleary....but hopefully you get what I am saying. And think about it!
57. IMO said the following at 7:38 AM on Aug 28:
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PS
Part of my comment was directed at Kelly. The rest were directed to other comments I have come across..
58. Kellie said the following at 8:54 AM on Aug 28:
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I have to say that I'm rather appalled by all the comments about physical appearance. We are not worthy of marriage based on numbers on a a scale and some of us are never going to live up to the world's standard of beauty no matter how much we weigh.
59. lexi said the following at 11:24 AM on Aug 28:
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This might sound very shallow. But should I be concerned if my single, late 20s gf who is Godly and smart, and pretty – but medically overweight – say that God hasn’t brought her husband because she’s not “ready”?
That God has His timeline and it hasn’t come yet? I know some folks shy away from introducing a guy to her because of the weigh issue. I feel torn between trusting God for her and wanting to advice her to get moving. (or running?)
60. BDB said the following at 12:31 PM on Aug 28:
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lexi (#59) - the best book I've read on the subject is Elisabeth Elliot's Discipline: The Glad Surrender. She does agood job of tying together the scriptural basis for various disciplines - including eating, exercising and clutter. It's a very challenging book.
I have to say, though, that back when I was running 4 miles a day, the women who were hitting on me weren't Christians. It's doesn't necessarily "solve" anything.
61. lexi said the following at 1:08 PM on Aug 28:
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BDB (#60) - thank you for the recommendation. I'll def.look into the book.
You're right - it won't "solve" everything. We need to have a good balance, without obsessing.
62. Jo said the following at 1:31 PM on Aug 28:
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Trevor, #51:
"Jo (15): I think your observation is very relevant; I'm curious to know if it's usually the man who's older?"
Yes, in all the cases I've known of. I did miss one though, I know one couple who were both young; she was 19 and he was 21 I think. Other than that, they've been 19-21 year old women with 25-28 year old men. I'm not talking about loads of examples though, maybe just 5 or 6. It's just something I've noticed.
"Then again, with girls getting the highest A-level results"
Yeah, girls are much cleverer, you're right.
Kidding! :P
63. BDB said the following at 5:48 PM on Aug 28:
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The couples I know that married young usually come from one of two types of families:
A) Both sets of parents have good marriages. These couples usually do fine - they have excellent built-in mentors with both parents and inlaws. Usually they've developed pretty good ways of handling conflict.
B) One or both is using marriage as an escape route from their dysfunctional family. These young couples usually fail. (Particularly when a conflict results in one of them turning to substance abuse - often modeled by their family.)
64. Kelly said the following at 8:39 PM on Aug 28:
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IMO - To clarify, I was speaking of myself when I talk about people "giving up" because I know my head sometimes gets into that space!
As to the others: "Who cares?" Well, I do! ;) No matter where in the world you look, the more attractive person will get more dates and therefore have a better chance of finding a spouse. I want a spouse so I will do ALL THAT I CAN to increase my chances of meeting one.
I have 2 overweight single girlfriends who are my age (~30). I get asked out/hit on FAR more than they do. Yet I would say that personality-wise, we have equal strengths and weaknesses.
I agree appearance shouldn't matter. But it DOES. Side-effect of our fallen world.
How awesome will Heaven be when we can look at the true 'face' of a person rather than outward appearance?!
65. IMO said the following at 4:49 PM on Aug 29:
65
yea sorry about the rant...
I get what you are saying, Kelly.
66. Julie said the following at 9:21 PM on Aug 29:
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BDB #63, I think there is truth in what you said. We cannot underestimate the massive handicap our generation was dealt with so many being children of divorce. It's so common that often both dating partners are children of divorce. They not only had a bad marriage model but are likely not getting the best advice from their parents either. I believe that in many cases, the the people who are delaying marriage are people who value it very highly, and are very cautious because they so badly want to get it right. I think this is one of the key tasks for Generations X and Y--to break those patterns and form healthy families, whether that happens early or late.
67. BDB said the following at 12:54 AM on Aug 30:
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I think there are least three different people posting with the name "Kelly." One from Asia, one from France and one who is married. Could y'all each pick something that would help distinguish yourselves?
68. BDB said the following at 1:06 AM on Aug 30:
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Julie (#66) wrote:
>>They not only had a bad marriage model but are likely not getting the best advice from their parents either.<<
I was thinking about something I read a long time ago. A woman who had just had her first big fight with her husband, called her mom and said, "I want to come home."
Her mom said simply, "You are home."
I know that our church's newlywed (and premarital) classes include a unit on inlaw boundaries. Ponder the difference between inlaws that gently but firmly push their kids back to face the conflict and resolve it, vs. the parents who immediately go on a vicious tear blaming their child's spouse for all the problems.
It's one thing to "man up" and invite someone to dinner.
It's quite another when enforcing a boundary of respect requires putting a parent in their place - perhaps the parent who caused the divorce never outgrew their ineffective way of dealing with conflict. I suspect that those who have surpassed their parents ineducation and career success are better equipped to defend that boundary.
Those whose parents are supportive of their marriage should consider how blessed they are.
69. Tami said the following at 9:51 AM on Aug 30:
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BDB (63) -- I know one couple who are your "Type B" but thankfully they have stayed married and have a productive life together. But it took (takes) a *lot* of work on their ends. And, they are believers.
From watching them I do see that God will bring together folks who haven't always had the best start, to re-teach them and bless them.
I'll add a Type A(i) if I can -- people who dated in the high school youth group, then through college (if they went) and got married.
70. Margaret said the following at 2:06 PM on Aug 30:
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I don't understand the upset, really. I dont' see these studies and articles as "marry early or you're doomed". They're just an antidote to the "common wisdom" that early marriages are a bad idea.
It's true that what ultimately matters is the choice of spouse and the couple's dedication to God. Setting an age limit of any sort is just silly. Some marry young, some later, some not at all.
However, as someone who married young (19) and got plenty of snide comments about it, it's refreshing to hear a different perspective. There have certainly been benefits to marrying that young (my husband and children being the greatest!), but had I listened to the strident voices around me, I would have made the "wise" choice and missed out on those incredible blessings from God.
71. Kelly said the following at 8:12 PM on Aug 30:
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BDB - I don't know; I like being anonymous! (I'm the one who's been posting here for ~5 years, from various countries, and none of your descriptions actually fit me. ;) )
72. Beth G said the following at 8:00 PM on Sep 1:
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Steve et al,
I too read that CT article, and I am fairly confident that many other thirtysomething female readers (I'm a few weeks shy of 34) are having a similarly-panicked reaction. All this "chastisement" to wise up and marry young(er) doesn't do us a lick of good if there are no worthy suitors around, let alone pursuing us.
Given our age and stage of life, I hope you can understand why the other major point in the CT article -- that devoted Christian females are being forced to settle for spiritually (and perhaps emotionally) immature males -- is further cause for concern.
My question to you (and Candace and the other already-married or about-to-be Boundless writers out there) is then: What's a "good girl" to do?
Seriously.
What if you didn't deliberately delay marriage? What if you just haven't been blessed with a suitable prospect, or any prospect, by the time you hit your "early" 30s? Or what if you finally did meet someone at that age, followed all the spiritual rules for godly relationships (purity, oversight of mentors, strong family involvement, plenty of relationship study/materials etc.)and made an understandably high degree of emotional/relational investment, only to have it disintegrate by the time marriage would have been the natural next step?
What if the poor selection of spiritually stunted prospects, often with baggage to boot, is staring you in the face at the time you are keenly aware you're running out of time?
What if you don't attend a mega-church with a large singles "ministry?" What if there's no such church or group for miles? What if you don't have the time, money or patience to deal with electronic "matching services?" What if you are simply sick and tired of hearing sincere, godly people tell you to "pray and wait and trust God to bring the right person along?"
We know you're sincere in spreading the message about early marriage. We're trying not to hold it against you. But it just plain hurts when that mantra is being preached without a similar call for some kind of sensitivity to the waiting wounded.