Virginity Rocks ... But Not on a T-Shirt
by Heather Koerner on 07/02/2009 at 1:23 PM
I just got back from an amusement park. I went upside down 15 times at 3.6 Gs. I had the ultimate theme park goodie. I learned that the former does not mix well with the latter. And I also did a whole lot of people watching.
People watching at a theme park is always interesting. I think I saw just about every age, color, shape, size and variety of person that exists on this earth. But out of the hundreds (maybe thousands?) that I saw, there is one young lady that I remember.
I saw her while waiting on the family to complete the obligatory bathroom/water bottle fill up time. I remember that she was lovely though, to be honest, I don't remember a lot about what she looked like. What I do remember was her t-shirt. It was hot pink and showed her frame off to, umm, advantage. Blazen across her chest were the words "Virginity Rocks."
I had two opposite reactions to this t-shirt. One was encouragement. I was encouraged that this young lady seemed to be making a stand for God's amazing plan for sexuality. But I was also discouraged.
You see, since being married I've learned a lot about the differences between the male and female mind. I've learned how something that may seem innocuous to me may be viewed as sexual by a male. I've learned that a young man reading "Virginity Rocks" on a tight, hot pink t-shirt is probably not going to immediately start contemplating purity. And it was discouraging that this young lady didn't seem to be aware that her message was not matching her medium.
I would have loved to talk with this girl and encourage her to ask some hard questions about clothing and beliefs and whether the two match up. But modesty is complicated -- it's a both profoundly public and intensely personal topic. One best not approached by a stranger at a theme park but by parents, sisters in Christ, pastors and Titus 2 teachers in a trusted community of faith.
So, instead, I looked at myself. I remembered how easy it is to slip into the world's definition of pretty, stylish and sexy. I realized that it's important to take the time periodically to reevaluate what I wear and ask myself the tough questions. What was my clothing saying that day? Was there anything about what I was wearing that disconnected with what I want my life to say? Was God gettting glory from my appearance?
Because, ultimately, modesty is not about me (although I know I benefit from following the command in God's Word to dress modestly). And it's not about men (though I know that I can serve my brothers in Christ through modest dress). It's about God. 1 Timothy 2 tells me why I should be modest -- because modesty is "appropriate for women who profess to worship God."
As C.J. Mahaney writes (in a really thought-provoking chapter on modesty in his book Worldliness):
"Make this your aim: that there be no contradiction between your gospel message and the clothes you wear. May your modest dress be a humble witness to the One who gave himself as a ransom for all."
1. Dr. Ransom (E. Stephen Burnett) said the following at 1:48 PM on Jul 2:
(Ahem) "Miss USA." (Ahem ...)
Another related and even more cringe-inducing trend is using examples of pornography or immodest dress to show How Bad It Is.
One Christian book has a bare midriff on its front cover. And one entire organization I knew about, dedicated to making people aware of the Dangers of Porn, showing barely edited clips of it during a series of campus events in early 2005 (I had to get up and leave one such event).
If you're going to promote marriage and/or chastity, let your work and appearance match it. To do otherwise is not only naive, but hypocritical.
(By the way, hope you had fun at SDC -- it's one of my favorite parks, and yes, I've been on that coaster too!)
2. Dan Gill said the following at 2:19 PM on Jul 2:
Amen to that!
If I can express a pet peeve with your post rather than the subject, I hate it when people force me to click a link to know what they're talking about. I refer to the "ultimate theme park goodie." The link is okay, but the text should tell us what that ultimate goodie is. Then if we want more info, we can click the link.
3. Megan said the following at 3:25 PM on Jul 2:
@Dr. Ransom (E. Stephen Burnett)
From what I understand, said organization is still using the inappropriate presentation. My mentee just recently had a run-in with it on her campus. It seems as if even some Christians will do anything in the name of "education". How sad for them and for upcoming generations.
4. Dan real-name said the following at 3:51 PM on Jul 2:
To echo Dr. Ransom in post#1, there is a VERY well-known christian book on sexual purity that, unfortunately, uses some particularly graphic language that describes one of the author's own impure actions. I honestly CAN'T believe that such verbiage made it past the editors. Several other men I know of agree with me.
On the positive side, I want to encourage the women out there that us men feel much safer around a woman who dresses modestly.
5. Kelly said the following at 6:27 PM on Jul 2:
Question for the men out there:
If you were looking at girls' profiles on a (Christian) dating site, and she said in her description, "I do not believe in sex before marriage," would you find that a turn-off? Inappropriate?
In our confused culture, where someone's virginity is a sensitive topic for discussion, I'm starting to think it's better to get THAT topic out of the way at the start. It would save all kinds of trouble of getting into a dating relationship and realising you both have very different expectations of what a dating relationship entails.
6. Leah said the following at 10:27 PM on Jul 2:
I don't know which book some of the other commenters here are discussing, but there is a book which is aimed at preparing about-to-be-marrieds for the sexual relationship which contains quite explicit descriptions. Our minister told us about it earlier in our pre-marriage counselling, but didn't allow us to read it until the fortnight before the wedding.
Such books are beneficial for people about to be married but are of course very unbeneficial if an unmarried person were to lay hands on it. Some discrimination is required.
7. Jo said the following at 11:58 PM on Jul 2:
I'm a little confused, are you saying you'd be in favour of having 'Virginity Rocks' on a t-shirt that was more 'modest'? 'Cause I'm not sure that would ever be a good plan... I'm not a guy, but knowing a little of how guys I know react to virginity, an attractive girl advertising her purity like that would be much more tanatalizing, not less.
8. Jo said the following at 11:58 PM on Jul 2:
(Maybe that is what you were saying as well though - I just wasn't sure!)
9. Reid said the following at 6:16 AM on Jul 3:
A worse example that I've seen from time to time is writing on the seat of pants. Even when a guy is principled about where he focuses his attention, if he's literate then his vision automatically goes there for a moment just to read it. Not helpful.
10. Jerusha said the following at 9:20 AM on Jul 3:
So close...
At least that girl in the park had the start of a good idea. I wonder if she failed to consider the canceling impact of the fit of her t-shirt, considering that tight t-shirts are almost the (unfortunate) norm for high school age girls these days. Thanks for your blog on this subject--it's a reminder that all we say, think, do, and WEAR is a testimony of our faith.
11. Mike said the following at 9:40 AM on Jul 3:
Hmn...a tight pink T-shirt with a slogan that says, "Virginity Rocks". Sounds like a mixed message to me.
To a non-Christian young man, it might be viewed as a challenge.
Probably a bad idea.
12. Kellie said the following at 10:32 AM on Jul 3:
The girl Heather saw probably didn't intend to be immodest. Perhaps she is the only Christian in her family and/or doesn't have the benefit of friends and family members to encourage modesty. Or maybe they saw nothing wrong with her clothing choice. (or there is always the chance she got entirely too wet on a water ride and borrowed a t-shirt from a friend that didn't quite fit).
Modesty tends to be very subjective. Is modesty longer shorts? Baggy t-shirts? Or long skirts?
13. Kevin Hash said the following at 10:59 AM on Jul 3:
I once saw a shirt at a Christian bookstore. It was the tight kind and it said on the chest, "Modest is Hottest"
I kid you not.
14. Barbara said the following at 12:23 PM on Jul 3:
Dan, I too was curious about the "ultimate goodie" so I hovered my mouse over it to see what the web address is - in IE the embedded web address appears in the lower left corner of the bottom toolbar (or whatever you call it). I think Firefox does the same thing, not sure about some of the newer browsers. That way you can get an idea where you're going (in this case the phrase "funnel cake" was a part of the web address so I didn't have to click through) and the flow of her writing isn't interrupted.
Alternatively, you can always right click it and have the page open in a new window so you can see without interrupting the flow of the article.
Hope this helps!
15. Courtney P. said the following at 4:01 PM on Jul 3:
I have seen on of these shirt in an article, because the young lady wearing it (it was not tight on her)was banned from wearing it to school. I have never seen anyone wearing it in real -life but it seems very interesting!
16. Jess said the following at 6:41 PM on Jul 3:
Hm. i hope this isn't too unrelated, but it reminds me of a Christian movement out in California (p4cm.com). Part of the movement is wearing t-shirts that say cool things like "ex-atheist" or "ex-hypocrite". Others say things like "ex-porn addict" or "ex-masturbator". I have a well-meaning friend who was politely asked to turn his ex-masturbator shirt inside-out in a family restaurant, and got himself in some serious trouble for refusing to do so.
I'm simply curious about other christians think about this approach...i do have an opinion...but it's biased because it mostly concerns the fact that i don't want to hug him when he wears certain shirts...
17. RURU said the following at 2:03 PM on Jul 4:
Alistair Begg pointed out in his series on Ruth that whenever the bible mentions sex it is discreet left to a few words. The focus should be towards God especially if whatever topic being discussed relates to freedom to sin. Do we really need to understand what porn is like to know how to help? Does a DR. need to know what having a particular illness is like to help his or her patient? No it is enough to know that the treatment can be trusted and that one has the training to know how to administer it correctly. In the area of sexual sin it is similar to that process. If more has to be delved into than what can be appropriately discussed during a sermon then there is where personal counseling with a pastor or mentor comes in.
It is doing more damage than good to fight sexual sin by getting people to think about methods by which that sin is carried out. It is counter productive and in my opinion counter to what the bible would have us do (see: Hebrews 12:1-2).
18. Lynne said the following at 2:10 PM on Jul 4:
To those of you who are country music fans, Taylor Swift was on the cover of a fashion/beauty magazine a few months ago. The interviewer asked her about virginity, etc. She replied that she doesn't discuss that because no matter what you say, it just encourages people to think about you being naked, and she doesn't want to do that.
Say what you will about magazine/music/celebrity clothes, etc. I really liked the quote from her.
19. Robert said the following at 10:17 PM on Jul 4:
Clever marketing campaign going the way of the dodo bird. Good concept, poor execution.
FYI, this is the website of the virginity rocks t-shirt.
20. BDB said the following at 11:58 PM on Jul 4:
Since this is Heather, I first thought that she was writing about amusement parks because a major amusement-park company filed for bankruptcy a few weeks ago.
21. BDB said the following at 12:01 AM on Jul 5:
And Yay for Taylor Swift!
My favorite quote from her is,
"Why are people so surprised that my life is not a train wreck?"
22. Mike said the following at 5:44 AM on Jul 5:
Kelly (#5) wrote:
If you were looking at girls' profiles on a (Christian) dating site, and she said in her description, "I do not believe in sex before marriage," would you find that a turn-off? Inappropriate?
Personally, no, I would not find it a turn-off. Inappropriate? No, not inappropriate either.
I would like to think it would be unnecessary (especially on a Christian dating site), but she might have had enough bad dating experiences with men who had other "dating" expectations to feel as though she had to put it out there to weed out the ones who didn't adopt that model.
Maybe it's just her way of making sure she doesn't waste her time with hound dogs. A sort of "serious inquiries only", if you will.
Just my $0.02.
23. Kyra said the following at 12:19 PM on Jul 5:
To be honest I wouldn't ever wear a tshirt with that message (modest-fitting or not) and seeing someone else with it would make me embarrased for them. I tried to figure out why I feel this way, and here's what I came up with...
I think that sex and sexuality (like so many other private things) are way, way too publicized in our modern culture. What I mean by that is, when a person wears a tshirt with that message it is like advertising they themselves are a virgin, and I don't think sexual status is something that needs to be advertised. Whether a person is a virgin, "born again virgin" or has slept with a hundred people, I think it is a private matter between that person and the person they are seriously dating or about to marry. No one else. Putting it on a tshirt propagandizes sexuality.
24. Jo said the following at 3:18 PM on Jul 5:
Kyra: I agree with you. It's not something I generally advertise.
I do tend to answer when I'm asked about it directly though - which has happened to me three times so far, all by non-Christian guys. Even that is a bit of a grey area I think, since in my experience guys really genuinely respect it, but they do also see it as quite 'alluring' and a bit of a challenge.
I find it interesting though that guys even ask. I mean I don't make a secret of my faith, but it still surprises me when they link the two (a lot of people don't). And I always wonder why they're asking, but I figure it's not for me to judge their motives, and I tell them the truth.
Anyway, I guess I don't think it's really necessary to slap it across your t-shirt. Show your values by your lifestyle, and you'll be surprised what people pick up on.
25. brx said the following at 5:19 PM on Jul 5:
Re: Heather Koerner,
Have you considered that you are not in the target audience for the message the girl in the t-shirt feels called to deliver? I mean, you're not single, you're not a virgin, etc...
From what you write, it sounds like you really didn't notice much about her and therefore can't be very sure about her intentions. Could it be that the Enemy attempted stir in you, judgemental thoughts about her theoretical situation that you really had very little knowledge of?
I find the Enemy does that A LOT to me and others. I often forget Jesus' rebuke in John 7:24.
As lust triggers might be slightly different for some, modesty might also look slightly different for some.
Personally, I'm glad the message is right, even if the medium is not 100% connecting.
Grace, peace & adventure!
26. brx said the following at 5:41 PM on Jul 5:
Re: BDB [#21];
I'd be kind of surprised that it isn't because since she's become famous in the last few years, many of her hits are her singing about unhealthy relationships or being angry about a relationship.
Before she got popular on the west coast, I heard her do a beautiful accoustic set with very wholesome lyrics, a great voice, and innocent, fun style. Now she doesn't sound much different than the several 40-something, single, country-singing women who've gone 'sex-in-the-city' attitude, being unhappy about men and relationships.
I think the girl could use a caring producer who dares to go against the Madonna & 'Twain production formulas.
Grace & peace
27. BDB said the following at 7:42 PM on Jul 5:
brx (#26) wrote:
>>I think the girl could use a caring producer who dares to go against the Madonna & 'Twain production formulas.<<
Well, from what I gather, she went with a start-up record label precisely to avoid being forced into some kind of production formula. It would appear that she's firmly in control of the creative, while her parents are quite involved with the management aspect. It's a remarkable accomplishment for a 19-year-old.
In fact, it reminds me of a moment some years ago when Tiger Woods was being criticized in the press for losing his temper. One of the more mature professional golfers observed:
"He's 20. Give him 10 years to mature."
While it's always possible that Ms. Swift will plunge off a cliff, she seems fully aware of the risks. Any teenager who can acheive that level of success without the need to rebel against their parents.
Artists seem to go off the rails when they decide to ditch the people who helped them win initial success through some kind of formula. It's probably healthier to begin with full creative and management control.
As far as the unhealthy relationships...I noticed that she refused to discuss the Jonas Bros. dating relationship with the press. If she can maintain some press boundaries, it will help. She is in the Boundless target audience - that kind of reading would probably help, too.
28. BDB said the following at 7:52 PM on Jul 5:
Kelly (#5) wrote:
>>If you were looking at girls' profiles on a (Christian) dating site, and she said in her description, "I do not believe in sex before marriage," would you find that a turn-off? Inappropriate?<<
Calculated risk.
I knew a few women who said that a lot who got married because they were pregnant.
I have no idea how these various sites really work, but for a site that wants to be Christian, that would be a good thing to put in the matching criteria, even if it weren't public. Like being pro-life, it would separate out people by their level of sincerity. It might be better to put that in a "religious convictions" section and then issue both parties an "agreement percentage."
Another way to draw a clear line is to say, "I agree with Elisabeth Elliot that the best place to draw the physical boundary in a dating relationship is hands off and clothes on." That would also weed out those want to push the line as far as they can.
29. Tami said the following at 11:19 PM on Jul 5:
I'm a woman, but speaking generally, I would say that stating "I do not engage in sex before marriage" on a dating site is quite different than wearing a t-shirt message about abstinence or virginity.
In the case of the former, you are stating an objective fact, and it does seem more of a "warning" to those who do engage in sex before marriage. A line in the sand.
In the case of the latter, it's like an advertisement that invites a reaction. When it's in hot pink and writ large across the t-shirt, it's hard to miss. (I would say the same about the other t-shirts sold on that site.)
I also find some irony in the statement "Virginity Rocks"... especially because of the original (yet likely forgotten) connotations of the words "rock and roll"...
30. BDB said the following at 1:22 AM on Jul 6:
Just watched a Taylor Swift video and caught a quick shot of her with Faith Hill. Ya know, she doesn't need a "caring producer." She needs Faith Hill to provide some mentoring. Yes, yes, famous people tend to get themselves into trouble and react poorly with the press. But in general, Faith Hill and Tim McGraw have done a better-than-average job of avoiding a train wreck themselves.
I vaguely remember hearing something about them being demanding when they toured together. But the specific item referenced was having a place in the venue to set up a play area for their children. That strikes me as parents who are using their influence to ensure that the family can function even on the road.
Yes, I realize that Hill has mistakes, such as a marriage that fell apart soon after her first album release and a broken engagement to a record producer. Part of mentoring is sharing one's mistakes so that the mentee doesn't make the same ones. She and McGraw seem to have been married successfully for the last 13 years, which is much better than average for celebrity marriages.
And to realize how late I'm paying attention, she was their opening act for the Hill/McGraw 2007 tour. Well, no wonder she seems to know what she's doing; she's learning from the best.
Apparently she went through the Christian homeschooling experience, too. Y'all should try to get her to join as a guest.
31. BDB said the following at 1:34 AM on Jul 6:
And yes, I know that Taylor Swift has 1.4 Million fans on facebook, while Faith Hill has only 27,000. At this point in time, Faith Hill has sold almost five times as many albums.
I'm sure it helped that downloading wasn't always an option...
32. Kelly said the following at 2:40 AM on Jul 6:
Thanks for the feedback!
The reason I ask this question is my sister signed me up for a dating site, and we had a disagreement over including that line.
I lost, and it stayed out. ;) But I might go with the EE line instead!
33. obewan said the following at 6:57 AM on Jul 6:
Like all the other gimmicks in Christendom, this thing is just one more Christian "trinket" for the modern day moneychangers to make millions on. Sometimes it disgusts me to see all the crap that is sold to the masses in the name of Christianity. Anything to make a buck as the saying goes. I former co-worker who was probably an agnostic and certainly a liberal used to tell me all the time that “Christianity is a business.” In some ways he is correct.
34. Dan Gill said the following at 7:46 AM on Jul 6:
Barbara (#14): I know how to click a link. It annoys me that I am forced to do so to understand the author's meaning. That is poor writing.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion of modesty and virginity.
35. Mike said the following at 9:13 AM on Jul 6:
BDB (#30) wrote:
But in general, Faith Hill and Tim McGraw have done a better-than-average job of avoiding a train wreck themselves.
Speaking of which, I seem to recall a news story some time back about them doing a show together and a fan got past security and up onto the stage and made some...ungentlemanly moves towards Faith. Or maybe made some unseemly comments. Can't remember now. But I do remember Tim was rather perturbed, to the point of bodily ejecting the interloper.
Nice, to my way of thinking, that he knows how to defend his lady's honor.
Perhaps this is a good mentoring couple for the young lady. Not only from the standpoint of the older woman, but from the standpoint of what to expect from a man.
Just a thought.
36. Joel said the following at 9:41 AM on Jul 6:
This is a slightly different tack, but what's with all the amnesia regarding the "Christian publications" referenced in #1 and #4? Is there some sort of unwritten rule that you don't mention publications which contain material that is the subject of the discussion if they are nominally Christian? If these "modesty violations" (for lack of a better word) had occurred somewhere in the secular media, it probably would have been mentioned where: "Sex and the City", "Transfomers", "Miss California," etc.
One could argue that it would be *more* pertinent to mention and discuss such instances of "modesty violations" in Christian publications because those are more likely to be assumed to be free of such stumbling blocks. It's not as if this information could be construed as gossip or slander; we're not talking about a celebrity photo shoot or John and Kate's motives; we're talking about a published work that purports to be espousing truths about the Christian Faith.
37. Ana said the following at 10:09 AM on Jul 6:
RE: brx (#25)
Have you considered that you are not in the target audience for the message the girl in the t-shirt feels called to deliver?
As a single, young (22), Christ follower, I still agree with the author and a few of the other comments posted here that ... sex & sexuality is a private matter. Yes, we should live boldly. And yes there are matters that just cannot be compromised on as believers. And yes, we should be an example. But I think there are better ways of going about it.
I am a youth leader and purity is definitely what we enourage to our students, but not by blowing it up on a t-shirt across our chests. We simply live our lives according to the Word and from that comes fruit and from that the light within us is able to be seen. Not from what we do and not from what we wear but from what God is doing within us. "Jesus on the inside, working on the outside". I think as young women we just need to let our fruit speak for itself, let the Holy Spirit within us testify for us.
Her heart may have been in the right place and God bless her for having that boldness. But ... I don't think it was the right approach. And sadly, I think it could've done the OPPOSITE of what it was suppose to do. Especially with hormone-driven boys running around the theme park. :/
And as far as "defining" modesty. I think the questions that the author here presents are a good place to start. We have to think about what we are projecting. Yes its easy to say "well, I dont think what I'm wearing is that bad." We have to get ourselves out of the "self-centered" way of thinking. Its not just about us. We may be the only "light" that some people see and we can't ruin that opportunity by being selfish. We have to think about our brothers in Christ. Do we want to be a stumbling block for them? Men are VISUAL BEINGS. Whether we like it or not. There are ways of being modest without looking like a "prude". I think people use that as a cope-out sometimes. NOT EVERYONE. But some. God tells us if we don't know, ask Him. There's nothing too little or too silly for God. Pray for wisdom and direction in the area of modesty, He'll help you. He's pretty cool that way. I'm pretty sure if He can fashion the universe, He can help you with your closet. :)
38. Dan Real Name said the following at 11:05 AM on Jul 6:
Joel #36:
Let's see if Boundlessline blog publishes this:
The book I am referring to in post #4 is "Every Man's Battle For Purity". The questionable material I am referring to is in the first or second chapter where one of the author's describes how he crashed his car while staring at a woman in a bikini. The author had to go into some unnecessary detail of the woman's appearance. I was in a men's "purity" group where we used that book as study material, and we had to skip reading that section aloud, along with other passages in the same book.
Again, as I posted before, I am NOT alone in seeing this book's level of detail as completely inappropriate and contrary to the intention of the book.
39. brx said the following at 11:15 AM on Jul 6:
Re: Joel [#36];
I kind of made my stance regarding such matters in #25:
As lust triggers might be slightly different for some, modesty might also look slightly different for some.
Personally, I'm glad the message is right, even if the medium is not 100% connecting.
In the endless compromise of trying to perfect the imperfect match between message and medium, I'd rather have the balance lean in favor of the right message.
Grace, peace & adventure on The Way
40. T.Smith said the following at 11:15 AM on Jul 6:
Maybe Boundless and its readers possess the dirty minds. I find nothing dirty or sexual about the said t-shirt. It might be a little antagonistic toward people who've lost their virginity (not necessarily a wise approach), but it's not sexual.
The male mind, despite the crass assertions, is not as sexual as some make it out. In fact, sociologists and neurologists have experienced great trouble proving that the male mind is more sexual than its female counterpart. Only in certain societies do men possess a higher libido, while in other societies women possess the higher libido [1].
Again, just because you and your spouses possess dirty minds, doesn't mean the rest of us men do.
[1] Kinsey seems to support the assertion that men in the United States possess a slightly higher libido than men, whereas in Europe data suggest that women posses the higher libido.
41. Ashley Harris said the following at 11:59 AM on Jul 6:
T. Smith,
I think your source is a little less than credible.
42. Mike said the following at 12:16 PM on Jul 6:
T. Smith (#40):
This isn't about "dirty minds" or who has a higher libido. This is about two differences between men and women:
1) Men are far more visually aroused than women.
2) Men are predisposed to be the sexual aggressor.
Hence, a woman attracting attention to her chest with a tight T-shirt is definitely going to cause more interest of the wrong sort among men than she might first be aware. She's not wired (generally speaking) for visual stimulation, whereas men are. And, generally speaking, at least up until the sexual revolution and from a Biblical standpoint, women are not the aggressors in the sexual relationship; men are.
Hence, Heather's concerns are valid. Advertising virginity - an attractive concept for sexual attractiveness throughout history - in a way that draws attention to a woman's sexual nature is problematic. And it has nothing to do with who has a higher libido. It has to do with putting sex into its proper context.
43. khalil said the following at 12:56 PM on Jul 6:
#40...
Kinesy's studies don't hold water and I would be rather careful about using them as a reference point.
44. Kellie said the following at 1:08 PM on Jul 6:
From the website it didn't look the t-shirts were that tight-fitting (although I don't really approve of advertising one's sexual status on clothing) Boundless sold shirts a few years ago and they appeared that they were sold in sizes for women and men(as opposed to a uni-sex size).
45. Paxton said the following at 1:24 PM on Jul 6:
Now T.Smith, why would you find it "crass" to assert that the male mind is more sexual? Do you think sexuality is crass? (Because it is not -- unless you have a dirty mind, hrm).
But of course that was not the assertion, as others have noted. The statement was not that men are more sexual, but that male sexuality is generally more visual.
I agree with the comments far above, about the propagandization of sexuality. Of course virginity is excellent (though susceptible to self-righteousness like any other virtue). But it is also modest and private. In the same way, I know it is popular to have parades for sexual pride these days. But I would not attend one of these parades even if it was proclaiming pride for married, heterosexual relations of the kind that God intended -- because it is not the sort of thing that should be PARADED. The fact that these threads always always always get the most comments, is itself moderately troubling. We should be interested in other things too =)
46. Joel said the following at 1:34 PM on Jul 6:
At Dan #38: Thanks for the info; I went and checked it out, thinking you were possibly being a little bit hypersensitive, but...you may have something there. I was a bit surprised at how descriptive that passage was, especially given the context. Perhaps it was written that way to illustrate the persuasive power of sexual temptation, or to form a bond with the reader of "I've been there too." Perhaps it is poor form. (or all three)
Regardless, as BRX commented in #25 and 39, I agree that lust triggers can in fact be different for different people, and as such individual judgment is called for. If your purity group felt that passage was inappropriate then you should definitely skip it. It's not rocket science; if you're drawing closer to God, you will know whether you should meditate on or intentionally not think about things that you experience in your daily life.
Regarding BRX's comment #39:
"In the endless compromise of trying to perfect the imperfect match between message and medium, I'd rather have the balance lean in favor of the right message."
I would suggest that while the priority is rightly placed, there is no reason to assume that the right message and the right medium are mutually exclusive. An essential part of the Christian walk is learning to do the right thing at the right time in the right way for the right reason. There may or may not be partial credit, but there is a right answer.
47. Dr. Ransom (E. Stephen Burnett) said the following at 3:38 PM on Jul 6:
Ashley (no. 41), Mike (no. 42) and khalil (no. 43), thanks much for the gentle rebuttals/reminders, there.
I have long since become more than a bit bemused with the men (even Boundless commentators) who claim all this talk of lust is so overdone, and they have the power to look at people naked all the time and appreciate them Artistically and then simply go on eating lunch and discussing sports, etc. ...
One Boundless commentator, "Chance," in response to a previous post, wrote:
Meanwhile, Joel (no. 36) wrote:
Blimey, dude. That is a darn good point. Paul didn't call Peter quietly aside for a public rebuttal when the latter was acting out of line with Grace, did he? (Galatians 2: 11-14)
Dan (no. 38) already answered the bit about the overly detailed book. I have the book myself, and as a single man found it way over the top. Perhaps this is a problem of people's low reading comprehension rather than an author wanting to relive a particular sin or fantasy even as part of a Testimony? (I am trying to be gracious here; I know the book has done a lot of people a lot of good.)
But please, I can understand you had a Sinful Moment. I don't need details.
The same is true of the Organization I mentioned in my first comment. (Carefully web-searches to confirm the name and address) It's called Porn Nation, which is also a book, and the author, Michael Leahy, is a former porn addict who goes about secular campuses and such sharing his story and warning about the insidious nature of porn.
Pretty good so far, right? And God bless what good is being done here, even if it's just common grace. But in order to prove his point, the author and his presentation offered details. I kid you not: samples of this slop were right there on the screen, with only strategic parts or actions blurred out. I had to look away, then leave; it was far worse than anything you might accidentally see shaking around on MTV or something. (How my campus group leader and other kids in the group reacted positively is another issue.)
If you're telling people, "Don't Do Drugs," do you pass around active heroin needles (maybe blunted a little) as a visual or tactile aid? That's just a secular argument, and it alone demonstrates the absurdity. How much more so does Scripture show the blatant contradiction!
Finally, on the subject of Avoiding Lust, I have found carefully written, God-centered books such as Sex and the Supremacy of Christ and Josh Harris' Sex Isn't the Problem -- Lust Is (formerly (Not Even a Hint) much more helpful and Grace-based.
48. Dan (real name) said the following at 4:49 PM on Jul 6:
Joel #46: Thanks for checking it out. I agree that people will have varying levels of sensitivity to some material. For those of us struggling with this issues, I honestly was "tripped up" by some of the authors verbiage. Overall, though, I did find the book helpful.
49. Ana said the following at 6:24 AM on Jul 7:
#44 Kellie
I don't think the concern is necessarily the actual "size" of the shirt, but the fit. As girls, we know what fits us well and what fits us WELL, if you know what I mean. Our bodies are shape differently than males so I think its okay to have female and male sizes to accomodate our shapes. However, for us ladies who are "blessed" in certain areas, I think its important to keep that in mind when deciding what we're wearing. :)
50. a sassy sister said the following at 10:14 AM on Jul 7:
#49, Ana:
as far as modest clothing and fit goes, there are two extremes that I see in this debate:
clothes that are baggy, shapeless, and slovenly(which may be perceived apathy or complete disdain for appearance and manners), or the other extreme, where every curve or line of your body is own display by the exposure of skin and/or clothing that is so tight it looks as if your clothes were literally painted on.
I think in some ways, modesty among women would be encouraged if there was more community, example and relationship between the older and younger generations of women.
However, I wonder about the following things with this post:
How does modesty practically work in proportion to physical beauty? Does modesty serve to put the emphasis back on inner beauty by deemphasizing physical beauty?
What is the difference between lust and attraction for men and women, and how does modesty help to curtail that lust?
Just trying to understand these things and be more effective...
51. Trisha said the following at 10:17 AM on Jul 7:
To the Faith and Tim fans....read the book Alan Jackson's wife wrote about their marriage & trail's.
What about pro-life t-shirts from anywhere (i.e. Abort73.com)....I have the Love Lets Live one?
52. Trisha said the following at 10:21 AM on Jul 7:
How can a girl....little, tweens, teens dress modestly? Have you seen the clothes they sell in their section of most stores? It would be hard for a Christian parent or any parent to pick out modest clothing for a girl or boy. For example you would have to buy a boy's Chicago Cubs shirt for your girl rather then a girl's Chicago Cubs shirt.
53. Mike said the following at 5:45 PM on Jul 7:
Trisha (#52) wrote:
How can a girl....little, tweens, teens dress modestly? Have you seen the clothes they sell in their section of most stores? It would be hard for a Christian parent or any parent to pick out modest clothing for a girl or boy.
YOU SAID IT, SISTER!
I have taken my daughter clothes shopping, and it is a challenge and a half! What do these designers think they're dressing these CHILDREN for, Hollywood Boulevard?
(Excuse the shouting. Just a dad ranting about his daughter.)
But I have had a terrible time finding clothes that are (1) not unattractive for my daughter, (2) acceptable to her, (3) not trashy. Not to mention that, beginning in adolescence, you couple extreme body image consciousness with the fact that nature is playing silly putty with the child's body.
Well, it just makes me want to hit something.
(Okay, rant mode off.)
:-)
54. Taf said the following at 11:12 PM on Jul 7:
@ #6 Jess, ex-hypocrite t-shirt? that kinda scares me because that's something I'm constantly having to deal with. I've not arrived
55. Ana said the following at 7:53 AM on Jul 8:
#50 a sassy sister
I definitely agree with you on the extremes. I think its hard sometimes to find a balanced medium.
I also agree with the importance of godly examples. I've been blessed to have awesome older women around me who exemplify modesty AND beauty.
I personally believe that modesty and beauty don't necessarily have to be "enemies". And I do know that its hard due to the market out there. I went shopping for shorts the other day and it was crazy some of the things that I saw. I kept asking "are these shorts or under garments?" Although it is hard, I dont think its impossible. I strongly believe that you can look beautiful in a modest way. We were discussing this in my college lifegroup and we were talking about simple things, like putting a tank top under shirts that maybe show too much. Its simple but cute and modest all at the same time. You dont have to "go all out" and cover every inch of skin, just so your "inner beauty" can show. My friends and I laugh all the time because people expect us to look dry and boring because we're Christians. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to look dry, boring, and all covered up. We are representing the King of Kings so of course we're going to look good. We just go about it a different way.
The dictionary says that lust is "a passionate or overmastering desire or craving" which is usually sexual and inappropriate. Attraction is in most cases, more innocent, and in alot of cases, not just towards looks but personality and other qualities. NOT ALWAYS. But in a lot of cases. As far as "curtailing" lust, I dont think dressing modestly COMPLETELY stops lustful thinking because some people dont need any encouraging to think that way. However, for some, seeing tight clothes or seeing certain areas being revealed are a trigger for them.
56. Kelly said the following at 8:32 AM on Jul 10:
The girl may noy even have been a virgin or Christian at all. There are tons of t-shirts sold on the internet and sold in novelty stores that are a parody or satirical in nature. (Ex. Jesus is my Homeboy, Friends help you move, real friends help you move bodies.) The t-shirt may have been her way of being "funny" by making fun of virgins/virginity.
57. Alex said the following at 9:11 AM on Oct 18:
For an incredible look into modesty, read Colleen Hammond's, "Dressing with Dignity". Absolutely astonishing.