Is Kissing Foreplay?
by Motte Brown on 07/09/2009 at 11:01 AM
I know we've covered the whole kissing-before-marriage topic before but I like how this "radical U.S. preacher" frames the argument. Is kissing, whether pre- or post-marital, foreplay?
A radical U.S. preacher, who is set to visit Adelaide, says young Christians should not kiss or cuddle before marriage because they will get carried away and end up having sex.
Evangelist Sy Rogers, who says he is a former prostitute, transsexual and gay man, says "kisses and cuddles" and the "good old pash" are foreplay that people should not engage in before marriage. ...
"So when is it time to stir up sexual desire?" he asked. "When you can afford to: in marriage.
According to Capitol Hill Baptist Pastor Michael Lawrence, there's no question about it. Here's an exchange we had with him about kissing before marriage during a 2006 interview:
Boundless: So kissing, how does that fit into [a dating relationship]?
ML: Well I would say it doesn't fit. When you kiss a woman, particularly if you are kissing her on the mouth, if you are kissing her for any extended period of time, things ... can I be really direct here?
Boundless: Absolutely.
ML: Things start happening in her body to prepare her to receive you sexually. There it is. That comes from kissing. That happens because God made it that way. And so we just know. You don't need a pastor to tell you what's sexual and what's not sexual activity. You know. Your body tells you.
It helps that Michael clearly defines what type of kissing we're talking about -- on the mouth for an extended period of time. So is this type of kissing foreplay? As Michael said, your body tells you it is.
1. efrain Gomez said the following at 11:36 AM on Jul 9:
yeah. that's true about our bodies reacting and actually "preparing" for something, or at least "wanting more". Depending on how you define 'foreplay', kissing can be considered that.
2. Julie said the following at 11:37 AM on Jul 9:
Yeah :) I used to disagree, but then between experience with kissing and consequences and break-ups and emotional ties and looking honestly at myself and my body, I'm going to nod my head right in time with Michael Lawrence.
I'm quite content not to kiss that way until marriage now, not out of fear or prudishness, but out of honor and love for God, any men I would potentially date, and myself.
3. efrain Gomez said the following at 11:45 AM on Jul 9:
aside from the personal, moral, or religious feelings about it all, there is a lot of interesting and revealing science-related stuff on kissing, mating, touch, love, etc. online.
example:
http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hs-love0620,0,7950428.story
4. Nathan said the following at 11:45 AM on Jul 9:
I agree with Michael Lawrence, an extended kiss is foreplay. And while people can mean totally different things when they say "cuddle", I think cuddling is also foreplay.
And of course, as Christians, we should stay as far away from sexual immorality as possible, not getting as close to the line as we can without getting in trouble.
On a side note, did you notice that the paper reports that Sy Rogers "says he is a former prostitute, transsexual and gay man" instead of reporting that he is a former prostitute, transsexual and gay man? Kind of like it doesn't really believe him.
5. brx said the following at 11:57 AM on Jul 9:
...there are other types of kissing that can also be foreplay...
But from a very practical point of maintaining the physical purity of your marriage bed, kissing on the lips (or any mucous membrane or fluid exchange) is a wonderfully casual way for HSV-1 and HSV-2 viruses to spread - AKA herpes simplex virus. There is no cure and it can be spread even from someone who has no visible symptoms.
Serving in college ministry, it was sad when I'd hear from a student who was so flattered when a school 'hottie' was interested in them and that was his/her first kiss - and months later they learned they're now stuck with the herpes simplex virus.
Surprisingly, I run into singles ministry pastors who tell people 'sure, kissing is ok!' I think they need some schooling, if only for the practical reasons above.
Grace, peace & knowledge
6. Anonymous said the following at 12:02 PM on Jul 9:
Yes.
Back when I was dating my ex. All we did(as far as physical contact) was makeout with kissing only. That resulted in a couple "accidents" on my part.
So, yes definitely foreplay.
It is also amazing how much it skews your sense of time in a relationship. We date for 7-8 months and started kissing after 6-7. However, looking back it feels like we were kissing for several months. However, it is just that once you start kissing, you start doing it more and more until that is what you are doing every time you hang out.
Most likely, not gonna cross the kissing line in the next dating relationship. It is too dangerous before marriage.
--A 26 year old who had his first kiss(and then lots) at 25--
7. Holly said the following at 12:05 PM on Jul 9:
Self-control! It's all about self-control!
Just because one bite of chocolate makes me want to eat a whole candy bar doesn't mean I should (and I should know, I'm diabetic, lol).
I think the same goes with kissing. I don't think it's wrong to a certain point (some tonging I've seen can be . . . passionate). But a soft kiss saying "hello", "goodbye", or "I love you" is in no way a sin.
8. Kaley said the following at 12:08 PM on Jul 9:
So...is kissing for a short period of time okay (not extended)? Is he saying that? I mean, when I read that, I immediately started wondering what is "short" and what is "extended."
9. Amir Larijani said the following at 12:19 PM on Jul 9:
For the record: FutureMrsLarijani and I made the decision--from the outset--that we would not share our first kiss until after we say "I do."
That is not a binding imperative on other believers, but rather a decision made because FutureMrs feels that any kiss under two seconds, would leave her feeling cheated. ;)
As for "kissing on the mouth for extended periods of time", I can't speak for the women, but--speaking for the men--I'd say that very few men, who have reached sexual maturity, can honestly say that such kissing does not provoke the desire for more.
If you're a red-blooded American male, you know quite well what I'm talking about, so please spare me the denial.
There is a legitimate place for discussing the extent to which other believers are accountable to the larger Body in such matters.
Still, kissing is not a matter of "thou shalt not", but rather of exercising prudence and discretion.
At the very least, guys and gals ought to take it easy on the smooching until after the words, "You may now kiss the bride".
As for those who wish to say that kissing--such as Lawrence describes--is no one else's business, they may have a point. Like I said, that is a fair topic for discussion, as to the level to which the Church ought to hold other believers accountable.
That said, if you are single, dating/courting a gal, and engage in such kissing, then--after you fall into sexual sin--don't go Mark Sanford on me and say, "I just let my guard down!"
10. Texas Craig said the following at 12:22 PM on Jul 9:
I see two sides to the issue. On the one hand, kissing can certainly stir up all kinds of sexual feelings and desires, so it is a precursor to sexual activity. But, at the same time, so can holding hands, or just sitting near someone and seeing them.
From a practical standpoint, we should flee that which tempts us to sin. So, kissing should be avoided when it stirs up uncontrollable lustful thoughts and feelings.
But, on the other hand, kissing by itself is also just another indicator of intimacy - like holding hands, putting your arm around someone, walking close together - which, by themselves, are not sinful.
So, I come out in the middle. I would not forbid kissing as a demonstration of the level of one's relationship with another - provided that such kissing does not result in uncontrollable lust or temptation to sin.
(why do I use "uncontrollable lust" as the standard? because all kinds of things can evoke a physiological response in my being that is not a reflection of sin. So, to me the question is whether it evokes lust in my thoughts that I am unable to control and eliminate.)
11. obewan said the following at 12:31 PM on Jul 9:
Whether it is "foreplay" depends a lot on the level of attraction. But, that raises the important question of whether two people with less than MUTUAL mega attraction should even be kissing to begin with, or whether any unmarried couple should for that matter.
I say that only because I was in a passionate kissing situation with a past girlfriend where her level of interest was higher than mine. She dropped a lot of boundaries, and asked me to set the limits. Since I was not highly aroused, I felt like I was defrauding her by kissing her, but I also wanted to hold up our Christian standards. I made us stop kissing altogether, and shortly after that she told me that if our relationship was not going to lead to a marriage she wanted to break up. I was actually more interested in getting to know her personality wise than I was in kissing her, but in the end I felt like I was the one taken advantage of.
Now, there was another woman I dated near that same timeframe where there was an intense level of mutual attraction. She asked me how I would react if she were to kiss me passionately. I told her that I might become totally out of control and that it would be best not to find out. We never crossed that line. I think it is best to avoid it in the long run though since it brings little to the relationship in terms of discovering “compatibility.”
12. brx said the following at 12:38 PM on Jul 9:
Also important about kissing:
The world will tell you the message we've heard repeated so often in media throughout our lives that we subconciously tend to believe it: 'his love is in his kiss.'
Even among Christians talking about dating exclusively or courting, there's a tendency to expect or seal this premarital relationship with a kiss on the lips - even in lieu of words.
A passionate kiss can really make an image stick in one's mind. I'd like that associated image to be of my wife and not another.
A couple months ago, I had an exclusivity talk with the girl I'm courting and we 'sealed' our commitment with affirming words. Discussing feelings in detail is a challenge when there's potential for rejection. I'm glad we did use words instead of a kiss because now we both have a more concrete understanding of where each other is at. Funny... only now, does Prov 27:6 come to mind - an enemy multiplies kisses, but a friend tells the truth.
His love is not in his kiss - anyone can learn to kiss well and fill it with emotion and passion. His love is in his sacrifice, consistency, and truth.
Grace, peace & wisdom
13. Drew said the following at 1:07 PM on Jul 9:
if it doesn't cause sin? Kissing in public? Peck and makeout are 2 totally different things. I think a peck is totally acceptable.
14. Adam said the following at 1:07 PM on Jul 9:
Matthew 5:8 says "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."
Abstinence without chastity is just abstinence, kissing or no kissing.
15. Anka said the following at 1:09 PM on Jul 9:
I think the answer is yes,kissing is foreplay...and if we're wondering if it's sinful or not,I think it says clearly that if a man as much as looks at a woman lustfully he's already commited adultery....how much more if he kisses her....I'm yet to hear people thinking Holy thoughts while kissing on the mouth for an extended period of time....
16. Amir Larijani said the following at 1:56 PM on Jul 9:
Anka: that reminds me of a gal (Charlie Sierra) I knew from a prior church life. She was dating a guy--Tango Alpha (his initials). One night, a whole bunch of us were at the house of one of the leaders, playing games, drinking coffee, etc.
During our otherwise normal banter, Charlie and Tango start flirting--and I mean seriously flirting--on the couch. They weren't kissing, but if I were Tango, I would NOT have been thinking, "Let the words of my mouth, and the meditations of my heart, be acceptable in your site, O Lord..."
About a week later, Charlie was asking me what I thought, as she received some complaints from others in the group, some of whom were concerned that she and Tango were doing the horizontal tango...
I told her, "I won't answer for Tango, but I can answer for myself: the first five thoughts in my mind would not have been printable outside of a porn mag."
She was ticked at me, more because I had the audacity to admit what none of the other guys would tell her.
I quipped, "Hey...I'm a red-blooded American male, and I ain't too proud to admit it. Anyone who says he wasn't turned on by what you two were doing, is either gay, asexual, or just plain lying!"
She had a good laugh at that, but she got the message. She cooled it after that exchange.
17. justice said the following at 1:58 PM on Jul 9:
I think half of you guys are nuts.
"...I'm yet to hear people thinking Holy thoughts while kissing on the mouth for an extended period of time...."
And married people having sex are thinking about the Holy Spirit? highly doubt that
A great kiss is one of the greatest experiences in the world. It should hurt when you break up with someone, shouldnt it, I would be worried for someone if they invested in someone and then had to part ways and felt NOTHING. God made us with emotions, we're not robots.
18. Ronnica said the following at 2:03 PM on Jul 9:
If kissing is foreplay after marriage, than it certainly is before (even if neither party intends to complete the act). From personal experience, I know I need to hold off on kissing, at least any more than a simple peck. It's simply not helpful in my pursuit of godliness, and I can't imagine how it would be helpful to his. I look forward to all that...after marriage.
19. Ted Slater said the following at 2:03 PM on Jul 9:
Kaley (#8), you asked, "So ... is kissing for a short period of time okay (not extended)? Is he saying that?"
You'll need to wrestle with that for yourself. The *principle* is that certain kinds of kissing excite either the guy or the girl, or both, and therefore they're best left for marriage. How you work that out in your life is up to you.
The thing is, if we start saying "2 seconds on the mouth" or "1.7 seconds on the earlobe," then we're getting into legalism. Boundless doesn't want to go there.
20. J.T. said the following at 2:26 PM on Jul 9:
Is it just me, or does this come across as legalistic?
21. Dan Gill said the following at 2:27 PM on Jul 9:
I don't know, folks. I think maybe this whole discussion is legalism. When we define for other people what constitutes foreplay, isn't that stepping over the legalism line?
Kissing can be chaste and beautiful, and it can be passionate. I've been married 32 years, so I'm well out of the dating scene, and this idea was never really brought up back then. I can remember some folks telling us that French kissing was an imitation of sex, but we really didn't buy it.
I tend to agree with the poster who said that even looking or sitting close to someone can arouse desire. Certainly that is true in my experience.
What would I tell my daughter? I would honor a decision not to kiss, but I don't think I would object to kisses that were obviously innocent. And I would certainly tell her to look within her own heart and consider what the Spirit is telling her.
22. Adam said the following at 2:34 PM on Jul 9:
This topic falls into the same type of thing as living together before marriage (without sex). There is nothing inherently wrong with extended kissing. That doesn't make it wise.
I would be very wary of those that would call it a sin. There are some pretty clear lines drawn in the Bible.
Those who say that extended kissing is a sin are departing from the Bible in one direction (in some ways adding to it). Those who say that premarital sex is ok are departing from the Bible in the other direction (in some ways taking away from it).
If someone wants to set up guards to make sure they don't sin a particular way - more power to them! It is a very smart thing to do if one wants to limit temptation. I intend on setting up some guards should I wind up in a dating relationship.
*When Ted approves the last comment on this post,* the problem is when those subjective standards begin to be viewed as, or are promoted as God's standards. That's where the sin is at.
23. NeedACatchyName said the following at 3:06 PM on Jul 9:
I have my opinion on this issue, but I don't really feel the need to share it. Regardless of what it is, half of you will probably agree and half of you will disagree. :) I do, however, see disagreement on this issue as making Christian dating/courting/whatever you want to call it more complicated, if you can believe that's even possible.
The problem is a large number of young evangelicals feel that it's rather obvious that kissing should be acceptable and don't see why the other side is so prudish about it. At the same time, a different large number of evangelicals feel that it's rather obvious that kissing before marriage is sinful, and we should already be past this issue and moving onto discussing less obvious issues. And I think both sides really only continue to move further apart on this issue, to the point where one party in a potential relationship is rather disappointed/appalled to learn that the other party takes the opposite stance.
I think what is needed from both sides is a little understanding. Note I said understanding, not capitulating to the other side or backing down from your beliefs just to avoid conflict. I propose the following general guidelines for addressing this issue:
1) A couple pursuing a relationship should discuss this issue sooner rather than later.
2) Neither person should assume that just because the other person disagrees with them that they're an idiot or have dishonorable intentions, unless given a strong reason to suggest that this is the case.
3) Both people will attempt to reconcile any disagreements, but...
4) ...if disagreements can't be reconciled and prevent a relationship from occurring, there will no hard feelings from either person.
24. khalil said the following at 3:20 PM on Jul 9:
to Justice, #17...
you wrote...
"I think half of you guys are nuts."
I think we're all nuts, touched by sin and damaged in the fall. If we weren't there wouldn't be a need for a forum such as this or us to seek Biblical guidance on issues such as this ;)
In a more serious response to your statement though I have to add, why should we open up our heart and selves to more heartache and pain than we ought to? You mentioned sex between a married couple. The fact that they are married makes it a sacrament, makes it something that should point towards God and His creation.
You also wrote, "God made us with emotions, we're not robots."
We are not robots (the fall is an excellent example of that little truth), I agree. In a book of the Bible that celebrates relationships and sexuality the idea of not arousing love/desire until its time is mentioned several times (Song of Solomon, one instance is 8:4). Also described in this book is an Holy and God-pleasing way of expressing sexual relations.
I don't think this is all about being legalistic, its about being responsible for our heart and the hearts of those that we are involved with. While a kiss may be a wonderful experience it *could* be the doorway to speeding up the relationship towards a destination that a couple is not ready or prepared to be at. Personally I would like to take the middle ground here but knowing my boundaries and past experiences, emotionally and physically, I would want to lean towards suggesting that any kissing beyond a quick, affectionate peck on the cheek, hand, or forehead is probably going to lead to something (what that *thing* is would be for you to identify) that isn't entirely beneficial for the relationship or you as individuals.
Sex and the associated acts produce a hormone called oxytocin. Deep kissing and probably some of the hand roaming that is bound to go along with it would be something that promotes the release of this hormone, which our bodies use to assist with pair bonding. I would much rather have my body "chemically/emotionally bonded" with my spouse; if I kissed all my girlfriends or potential mates in that manner I am conditioning my body to be attached to far too many women. I think that is one reason why breakups can be so devastating, we've let our emotions and bodies go places they shouldn't go, places that should be set aside for our spouses.
Lastly, you wrote:"A great kiss is one of the greatest experiences in the world."
Just because it feels good and people are doing it doesn't mean I should do it. Using drugs to induce a state of euphoria can be (so I've heard) quite a pleasant experience, but I don't wish to subject my body to such a thing.
25. CT said the following at 3:28 PM on Jul 9:
It all depends on what is going on in the mind, as Jesus said. And as Paul wrote, "to the pure all things are pure."
So, keep you mind on Jesus and, I suppose, you can "french kiss" you boyfriend. If, however, your boyfriend is thinking about Jesus while he is french kissing you you might want to raise the question of sexual orientation. This brings us to the delicate question of whether or not it is every pious to get a little bit physical (i.e., more slow kisses) in an attempt to "convert" a leaning homosexual. Any thoughts on this?
26. Rob said the following at 4:48 PM on Jul 9:
brx,
If you've ever gotten a cold sore or "mouth ulcer," you've already got HSV. (Most likely HSV-1, the "oral herpes" strain, but quite possibly HSV-2, which is better known for causing genital herpes. Each strain has a "preferred" region of the body, but both strains are opportunistic and can colonize either area.)
I don't know about you, but I've been getting cold sores since before I can remember. I did a quick google search and found several studies suggesting that a majority of the people in the U.S. -- somewhere between 50% and two thirds -- are already infected.
There may be reasons not to kiss, but for the majority of us who are already infected, HSV is not one of them.
27. Ted Slater said the following at 4:51 PM on Jul 9:
J.T. (#20) and Dan Gill (#21) -- it's interesting that you use the terms "legalistic" and "legalism" in your comments.
Interesting because in comment #19 I mention that we are not condemning any specific behavior as sinful; we're merely giving perspectives and asking questions. What you do with them is up to you.
If we, as I wrote, specify that 2 seconds of mouth-to-mouth kissing is sinful, or that 1.7 seconds on the earlobe is sinful, then that would be legalistic.
I'd be interested in understanding what you mean when you both use the term "legalistic," and how you found the OP legalistic.
28. Lynn said the following at 4:57 PM on Jul 9:
My pastor made a really good point/analogy regarding kissing and cuddling among dating couples. He drew a comparison to an on-ramp on an interstate highway. He asked the congregation, "How many of you drive onto the on-ramp of an expressway and just sit there? The point of the on-ramp is to build up your speed to get onto the expressway." Then he noted that the same is true of foreplay. It was designed to get us "revved up" for the "freeway" so to speak. If you don't intend to get onto the freeway, stay off of the on-ramp.
Moreover, when we begin with the foreplay, we put ourselves in the position of potentially defrauding a brother or sister.
A good rule of thumb in deciding whether to kiss/cuddle - (or how long to kiss/cuddle or engage in other foreplay) is simply this: consider whether you would feel comfortable having someone kiss your spouse in the same manner that you're kissing your date. If you would be upset with someone kissing your spouse the way you're kissing your date/boyfriend/girlfriend -- you've probably gone too far.
29. J. Tucker said the following at 5:16 PM on Jul 9:
NeedACatchyName (#23), you are spot on. Well done.
30. Kellie said the following at 5:56 PM on Jul 9:
As a married person, I would agree that extended kissing is usually foreplay. In a dating couple, it's probably not the wisest thing, but I'm not sure it's a sin. I will admit that my husband and I did our share of "making out" prior to marriage and we did not have sex prior to marriage.
31. Scott said the following at 6:50 PM on Jul 9:
I don't know if I buy this. I've always heard that 'sex begins in the kitchen' and that women are turned on by all kinds of non-sexual attention that their man gives them (little notes, a call just to say 'I'm thinking of you', helping out with various tasks, taking the lead in defusing a tense conflict, etc.) - and every woman I've asked about this agrees.
If we follow Lawrence's logic, guys would be prohibited from doing any of these things for their girlfriends since it just might start stoking her furnace. It's not just kissing that does this for a woman, Lawrence, it goes a lot deeper than that.
32. brx said the following at 6:53 PM on Jul 9:
Re: Rob [#26];
"There may be reasons not to kiss, but for the majority of us who are already infected, HSV is not one of them."
Primary intent was to point out a real physical consequence that people often fail to consider. People who don't think they are infected should consider the person they kiss might be infected. People who know they are infected should consider that their potential kissing partner might very well be in the 30%~50% that is not infected. Would he/she mind being infected due to another's thoughtlessness?
The loving thing to do is use our mouths for words to discuss kissing in our relationship before doing it.
Again, love is not in the kiss, it's in the thoughtfulness that surrounds it.
Grace & thoughtfulness
33. Jen said the following at 7:12 PM on Jul 9:
The thing that boggles my mind is imagining a first kiss at the altar witnessed by possibly hundreds of people and documented on camera, videos, and such. I'm sure it's different for everyone, but in my mind it seems as if that could be awkward. Any thoughts on this?
34. K in NY said the following at 8:04 PM on Jul 9:
I have come to understand that this topic is relative. I am currently seeing a man who has had lots of 'experience' (he has a child) in the years before becoming Christian. He told me how its so much more satisfying to him to have a Godly "PG" relationship, than his R rated ones from his younger days. He is still comfortable with more physical stuff, ie kissing, than I am, I have never been against it, but just not so much experience. For him, he is happy to enjoy me without worrying that it will lead to anything further, I occasionally have to say honey I'm sorry but we have to stop cuz this is making me want more. we had to have a serious discussion about this, and he told me the sweetest thing: He really doesn't want me at all sexually...yet. Explaining it he said that he sees how worth it it is going to be to wait, he doesn't want either of us settle for anything less than God's intention for marriage. I may be the stereotypically 'purer' one, but he taught me more about appreciating it.
35. Kate said the following at 8:05 PM on Jul 9:
Don't make one of the good things in life into something bad. Do you really want to marry someone whom you never expressed your love with a cuddle or a kiss? I am not saying I agree with hooking up or anything like that. But, if you are in a committed relationship I think it is unhealthy for your relationship not to express your love in this way.
36. Charlotte C. said the following at 8:47 PM on Jul 9:
What?!
10# Texas Craig
But, at the same time, so can holding hands, or just sitting near someone and seeing them.
Is this true?
From a woman's point of view, I don't know if that's even possible. Are you saying that it can lead to that?
Wow, that's interesting. Does it apply to all men?
37. Bernie said the following at 8:48 PM on Jul 9:
I agree with that pastor so much. Doesn't it make sense?
If God created kissing, and he created it to be awesome, and kissing leads to "other things", shouldn't it keep leading up the way God planned it to be?
When we have to cut the process short on our own will, maybe we're not doing something right. Especially when we find it to be a struggle to stop or "not go too far", then maybe we shouldn't have started at all. That's like eating food, regurgitate before the food can start digesting, and then saying it was okay to do because you didn't let the digestion go too far. Either eat it or don't eat it.
If we can't do that with food, why do we do that with kissing, cuddling, and all of the above? I just feel like we shouldn't start it up too early, and kissing is an example of that.
38. drleeny2b said the following at 9:07 PM on Jul 9:
Hi family!
I read most of the postings here and I read a lot of interesting thoughts.
So now I have a question to pose to y'all:
If one prays to God as to whether something like kissing before marriage is acceptable in His sight or not, and He assures them by His Spirit of His answer, then why do you think He would tell someone else the opposite answer to the same question?
:)
39. FutureMrsLarijani said the following at 9:13 PM on Jul 9:
My $.02:
I'm not sure why people are wanting to separate kissing from sex. It seems that they doing some incredible mental and spiritual gymnastics to justify this type of behavior.
One can't disconnect the physical from the spiritual and emotional. That's exactly what the nay-sayers in this argument are trying to do.
If someone could provide me a good biblical argument for why you should kiss before the alter, I would love to hear it.
For the record, before I started dating I thought that I would end up kissing before the alter. Actually, I was sure that I would. However, being in the midst of a relationship I could see that guarding my heart would require more of me than I originally thought it would.
For all the nay-sayers to no kissing before marriage, what pieces of Scripture are you using for your argument?
40. Chris said the following at 9:35 PM on Jul 9:
If kissing is, indeed, foreplay, does that mean I'm engaging in foreplay with my boys when I give them a kiss? Is my wife doing the same when she kisses them? Am I engaging in foreplay when I give my dog a kiss on the head? Do the French all engage in foreplay when they do the one-two kiss on the cheeks?
What's that, you say? That's not the same thing? Oh, you mean it depends on context and intent?
All sarcasm aside, this is much ado about nothing. These people who feel that kissing/hugging/cuddling* and the like automatically lead to sex have issues with understanding the many and varied forms of human interaction. I'm sure we married men here can tell you how our wives can kiss/hug/hold us, and it can be long, and it's not about sex. It's about love and tenderness. Then again, our wives can give us "that look" without any physical contact....and we know it means to drop what we're doing....because, well, woo-hoo!
* Re: cuddling. If we're going to splice hairs, what does one consider cuddling after sex to be? More foreplay?
41. Louise from Chicago said the following at 9:56 PM on Jul 9:
I agree with comment 31.
Maybe the best thing according to this blog would be to have totally arranged marriages where bride and groom just meet briefly before the marriage contract to ensure they are not totally repulsed by each other, then they get married a few weeks after that.
42. Ted Slater said the following at 10:02 PM on Jul 9:
Chris (#40) -- if you are kissing your boys "on the mouth for an extended period of time," then yes, you are engaging in foreplay with them.
If you are kissing a dog "on the mouth for an extended period of time," then you are engaging in foreplay with the dog.
Sick, Chris.
Yes, it is about context. Absolutely. Of course. If you touch a woman on the shoulder for two seconds while working through some complexity in Microsoft Word, that's one thing. If you touch a woman on the breast for two seconds, that's something entirely different.
Yes, Chris, context matters.
I'm really puzzled about this one, folks. Do any of you really see "kissing on the mouth for an extended period of time" as non-sexual? Seriously? Do you do that with your mother? With your co-workers?
And, again, we're not going to tell you what specifically may be the threshold when it comes to kissing. That is up to you to wrestle with. If we were to say, ".5 seconds, no more!" that would be legalistic. And, though some who visit the blog may relish the thought of Boundless encouraging legalism, we're just not going there. Our raising this issue of kissing is not to introduce some law or make you feel guilty; it's to help you navigate a relationship in a way that you find honors the Lord.
Work this out on your own, folks. We can't fill in the details for you.
43. Keith said the following at 10:19 PM on Jul 9:
I have several thoughts about this one:
Firstly, I have serious doubts about following the advice of a former "prostitute, transsexual and gay man." This person clearly must have had some deep rooted emotional and spiritual issues, and probably isn't the healthiest person to give an opinion on these matters.
Secondly, kissing simply is a way to show someone you love them. If you can't kiss without doing something sexual, then there is seriously something wrong with you.
Sex isn't caused by kissing, and it won't be abstained from by not kissing. It is a relationship with those who we love that keeps us in check. If you absolutely love and adore God, you would never do something that would break your Father's heart. If your parents were good to you and you love them, then you would never do something that would hurt your parents. If you love your own body, you would never do something to violate it. It isn't about rules - it is about living a life of love.
Thirdly, I think that many Christian groups are so obsessed with preventing extramarital sex that they lose focus of the real problem: The problem isn't sex at all; it is that many people can't commit to loving one person for their entire livies. Even if every person in the world were to never committed a sexual sin again, it would all be meaningless if we don't know how to love each other.
Sex outside of marriage is wrong because there is no committed love - We live in a sex saturated but love starved society, and too many people are becoming emotionally anorexia. It reminds me of tv program I recently watched where a grossly obese man is taken to hospital, and the doctor tells the camera crew that the man is as malnourished as a starving child in Africa. That is hard to believe when looking at such a big man, but the truth is that his appetite for fatty food has distracted him from eating anything nutritional. Sex outside of marriage does the same to people - they get the fat, without getting the love that they really need. Whatever we do to prevent ourselves from premarital sex, make sure we never stopping learning to love each other day by day.
44. Celeste said the following at 11:12 PM on Jul 9:
I agree with the poster who said that once this type of passionate kissing begins, pretty soon it's all you end up doing. Nothing quite sours a good relationship like too much physical contact too soon. However, I do think that when a couple is getting ready to get married, to not express any physical love would prevent a bit of emotional bonding that ought to be taking place in preparation for the marriage.
My question is....how in the world do I get guys that are interested in being my future boyfriends to understand that I honestly DON'T WANT to make out with them, receive a backrub, cuddle, kiss or sit on their lap after dating for a week? I've only dated one man who was mature enough to respect my boundaries and didn't try to push them every time we were together. Is it ok to drop a guy "cold turkey" if he constantly tries to push a lady's physical comfort level "just a little bit"?
45. CT said the following at 11:43 PM on Jul 9:
I'm frankly surprised at all the discussion here.
Jesus says that it is better to cut out your eye or to cut off your hand if one of these causes you to sin. If kissing someone to whom you are not married is causing you to think lustful thoughts, then cut out kissing. If being around this other person causes you to think lustful thoughts, then stop being around that person. It's that simple. It's not as if we're even asking you to cut off your lips or your legs!
So what's the big deal?!
46. Hunter W said the following at 12:26 AM on Jul 10:
Looking at a member of the opposite sex also stirs up sexual desire. Should we also go Ray Charles until marriage?
47. Anonymous This Time said the following at 3:21 AM on Jul 10:
One thing I learned recently is that the way we avoid serious sin is by drawing lines before it really matters. Yes, whatever the questionable behavior is (kissing, e.g.) may be benign in and of itself, but depending on how great your struggle is in that area you will be doing yourself a favor by seeing danger far off in the distance and taking precautions.
I learned this because right now I am in a situation where for professional reasons have to regularly spend some time alone with a married man who is very friendly with me -- maybe borderline flirty. And because he is so sweet to me I started developing feelings for him. Through this struggle God has taught me the importance of drawing lines in the relationship BEFORE it matters because I may slide down the slippery slope. Who knows? Who's to say they can hold up to the temptation later on? There may be nothing wrong in and of itself with me responding to his friendliness by being friendly back and carrying on friendly conversations with him, but because of the danger I see potential for at least in my own heart, I have to decide to be more reserved with him and not initiate chit-chat and to watch carefully that my tone of voice and facial expressions do not in any way insiuate flirtatiousness.
Better safe than sorry. I was grieved as I was praying and saw a picture of this man and his wife who are treasures to God and why throw away the treasure of being a pure witness to both of them who don't know Jesus for the sake of the immediate gratification of male attention?? Despicable!! I was grieved when I thought of how God had entrusted me to love his wife well by drawing boundaries in my interactions with her husband. God had entrusted her to me! Someone who may not be loved well by anyone else in her life! I was responsible, in a way, to protect and defend her from her husband's failures. She was like the owner of the solitary pet lamb that Nathan told David, and I was like the owner of the big, fat flock. Not easy, but a sober responsibility for sure.
48. Philippa said the following at 4:51 AM on Jul 10:
To FutureMrsLarijani, no: 39:
If someone could provide me a good biblical argument for why you should kiss before the altar, I would love to hear it.
If you can quote the scriptural prohibition on kissing before marriage, I would love to hear it.
For all the nay-sayers to no kissing before marriage, what pieces of Scripture are you using for your argument?
Right back at you. You don't quote any Scripture to back up your own position. Demanding that others supply biblical quotes, when you have not proved your own theological case, seems a little ... off-kilter to me.
The ball is in your court. Please supply Bible verses and teaching that specifically forbid a Christian couple to kiss each other before they're married.
The only prohibition I can discern in holy scripture is sexual intercourse before marriage.
I fully take people's point that kissing can be part of foreplay, but it is not always foreplay, and it most certainly is not sexual intercourse.
I'm long past my first kiss, but I would have hated my first kiss to be in front of hundreds of people!
49. Charlotte C. said the following at 4:58 AM on Jul 10:
LOL @ Ted (#42)
That's hilarious.
Well said, Ted.
50. Dan Gill said the following at 6:57 AM on Jul 10:
Ted, I used the term "legalism" in response to your first use of it. Legalism isn't just about the time period that would make an activity a sin. It's about the heart. It's about binding things on people that God does not bind on them. The whole kissing-is-foreplay thing seems to at least lean that way for me. For one thing, it is not something that is explicitly forbidden (or commanded) in scripture.
I've been thinking about my own tendency toward legalism lately. That means I'm on the lookout for it in all situations.
I'd rather like to be able to tell my daughter, "No kissing before marriage. God said so." I cannot in good conscience.
51. Nobuhle Magama said the following at 7:08 AM on Jul 10:
i believe its all in the mind. if u think its foreplay then it becomes foreplay, but if i kiss ma dude jus to show him that i love him then its cool. its a personal decision, at the end of the day u need to know where to draw the line
52. Ashley Harris said the following at 8:12 AM on Jul 10:
Keith,
I hurt my fiance a lot. I hurt my friends sometimes and my family too. And I really love those people. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you won't break their heart. That is really faulty logic.
53. Amir Larijani said the following at 8:37 AM on Jul 10:
I'd say many people here are missing the point.
The issue here is not some attempt to define what constitutes an appropriate boundary--i.e., "thou shalt not kiss someone on the mouth for more than x nanoseconds..."--but rather an exhortation to exercise prudence and discretion.
Everyone has to work out his--and her--boundaries accordingly. Like I said, when you fall into sexual immorality, don't go Mark Sanford on me and give me the song and dance about "I just let my guard down...and it happened!"
If some of you want to play rhetorical gymnastics--bringing up "what about thus-and-such??"--then I would suggest that you are intentionally attempting to devolve this discussion into a Pharisaic discussion, and I make no apologies for calling you on it.
Open your Bibles to the book of Proverbs. Read it in its entirety. Pay particular attention to all the admonitions about seeking wisdom, prudence, and discretion.
Listen to older people who have "been there and done that", or who have counseled others who have.
If you were at my church, I would generally take a "your dating life is your business" approach. That said, there are some things that are red flags that others would be right to ask you about:
(1) cohabitation
(2) someone sees your car at her apartment/house at 3 in the morning
(3) flirting that would seem inappropriate
(4) and yes...kissing in ways that would send less-than-appropriate signals.
A couple weeks ago, FutureMrsLarijani came up to visit me. While my house has sufficient rooms--and I would otherwise have no issue letting her stay upstairs--I decided that it wouldn't look right. Ergo, I went to great lengths to find others to take her in.
(Her church--being her de facto family--practices "covenant headship", and has been very helpful in exercising accountability. I have worked with them from day one, and cannot say anything but good things about them. As far as I'm concerned, they are royalty.)
While she was at my house, the window blinds were up. When she was on the couch, I was in a chair (and vice versa). We watched a Ronald Reagan video together..
People from her church were texting her to ensure she was "safe". I had a chuckle over that, but no qualms.
She retired for the evening at a female co-worker's house.
Now I'm not saying that EVERYONE must do what FutureMrsLarijani and I are doing, but--given what I've seen in my 42 years in singles groups, adult groups, and other parachurch settings--I won't knock it for a second.
54. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:57 AM on Jul 10:
Comment 53:
Thanks for saying to everyone: "This is what works for me and my fiance, but it may not work for others!"
55. FutureMrsLarijani said the following at 9:15 AM on Jul 10:
Comment #48:
The only times that I can recall off the top of my head where kissing is explicitly mentioned in Scripture is in the Song of Solomon and Romans 16:16.
Song of Solomon takes place between two married people.
Romans 16:16 is referring to warm greetings between believers. One of my college professors had the joke -
Question: "What is the difference between a holy kiss and unholy kiss?"
Answer: "About 3 seconds"
Those pieces of Scriptures aside here are others that I've used in helping me come to a decision about whether or not to kiss before the alter:
Proverbs 4:20-27 - Exhortation from father to son to walk in righteousness and guard his heart with all diligence
Matthew 12 - Jesus is in a confrontation with Pharisees over the state of their hearts. He reminds them that they will have a day of judgment for every careless word that they utter.
Luke 6 - another reminder that the Lord is concerned about the heart
I Corinthians 6:12-20 - Verse 12 "All things are lawful", but not all things are helpful. "All things are helpful", but I will not be enslaved by anything. This section of Chapter 6 is an exhortation to glorify God in our body and to flee sexual immorality.
In Song of Solomon you have the exhortation to not "awaken or arouse love before it pleases".
If one puts the pieces of the puzzle together, I think there is a strong encouragement to refrain from kissing - and even cuddling - before the minister declares "What God has joined together let no man tear asunder".
The physical cannot be separated from the spiritual and emotional. You can try, but I think it's pretty clear from Scripture that the physical cannot be separated from the spiritual and emotional.
56. Rob said the following at 9:55 AM on Jul 10:
brx,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply (#32). I've been doing some more reading about HSV-1, and it turns out that while only 50% to 2/3 of Americans of all ages have HSV-1, by the time they reach 50 years old, 80-90% of Americans have HSV-1 antibodies in their blood. So most people eventually get infected, even though their infection may be asymptomatic.
It's also worth noting that while it's possible for an infected person to "shed" HSV-1 at any time, they are much more likely to be contagious when having an outbreak (i.e. an active cold sore). So if you're someone who's never gotten a cold sore, kissing someone with a history of cold sores is not necessarily going to cause you to become infected with HSV-1. And if you do get infected, you may not get cold sores, or you may only get cold sores once or twice. In general, the longer someone lives with HSV-1, the less frequent their outbreaks become.
Interestingly, nearly everything I've said about HSV-1 also applies to HSV-2, the "genital" strain of herpes. HSV-2 is far more common than people realize -- I found estimates that more than one in five adult Americans have it. But it's also not always contagious, and while infection is life-long, it's possible to be infected and never have symptoms, or to be infected and have symptoms only once or twice.
Woohoo for science!
57. Amir Larijani said the following at 10:02 AM on Jul 10:
Louise: It's more like, "This is what works for me and my fiance--and it would work for you--but are not saying you HAVE to do it this way."
There is a difference between providing advice, and creating a dogma. I am doing the former and not the latter.
The folks at Boundless are right: there are types of kissing that are best left until after the wedding vows.
While one must be careful to not insist on a Pharisaical "if you kiss for more than 3 picoseconds, you are in danger of moral sin", it is fair to keep sounding the alarm and prodding fellow believers to prudence and discretion.
The latter is perfectly Biblical.
58. Louise from Chicago said the following at 10:44 AM on Jul 10:
Comment 53 I am somewhat familiar with the concept on the "safe call."
Just makes sense that people these days might be texting that rather than making phone calls.
:)
59. Becky said the following at 11:19 AM on Jul 10:
Sexual purity is an issue that should be between an individual and God. No one else is in a position to say what's okay for someone else.
As is obvious from the wide variety of comments, each person is different. Some can handle kissing, some can't. Some can handle hugging, some can't. To try to make one rule for everyone will never work.
In my opinion, it's a matter of the heart. It's about God and my response to His love. My behavior will demonstrate the place He holds in my life.
60. Heidi said the following at 11:54 AM on Jul 10:
About the question of mouth-to-mouth romantic kissing being foreplay, my answer is: I wouldn't know.
:D
I determined at a very early age that my first kiss would be at the alter. At that time I did not know anyone else who held this conviction, and was actually teased rather mercilessly on the matter when I mentioned it to a loose-lipped friend. Some older (unmarried) women in the church actually betted on "how long [I'd] last". But this decision between God and I was my joy to keep, and has remained so all these years.
I can't say "I've been there, done that, and this is the answer", and I don't really believe I should be able to in order to have the confidence that my gladsome resolve is pleasing in the Lord's sight.
61. NathanaelN said the following at 11:59 AM on Jul 10:
My wife and I have been married almost 12 years now. There is been a lot of posts of about extended and non-extending kissing and when it becomes one or the other. I am not going there.
I do have an opinion on extended, passionate kissing. I would definitely consider it foreplay. In fact, I might go as far as to say that for me personally, extended kissing can be as intimate as intercourse.
On the bigger issue of sexual purity, my understanding has developed over the years. When I was younger and single, I thought that it just meant no sex. I thought that sexual purity was an absense of sexual interaction, that sex was the "impure item". (That idea was echoed by a youth leader who said that she could not wear a purity bracelet because she was married.) While that is true in a sense, I believe that sexual purity is something more. To maintain something's purity is to make it completely what it was meant to be. That covers both protecting it from pollution and cultivating it.
This includes not engaging in "gray areas" because we are human and liable to temptation. I am not saying that gray areas are sin. I am saying that it is not benefial to do things that might lead you astray from God's best path for your life.
This also includes learning about how to be a godly husband/wife if you are single or how to be a better husband/wife if you are married. Things that I found helpful in both situations is to read Christian marriage books and to spend time with godly Christian couples.
Our sexual nature is geared to help us connect with someone of the opposite sex that results in a lifetime bond. This is turn helps us to be more like Jesus. If you find that you are worrying over rules, you might want to examine your focus. I have found in my own life that rules (do this or do not do that) can be a substitute for relationship.
62. Autumn said the following at 12:24 PM on Jul 10:
I see absolutely no problem with kissing before you get married. If you aren't making out or kissing for "extended periods of time" or whatever you want to call it, I think you should be able to stop yourself before things get out of hand. Honestly, if you don't have enough self-control to stop yourself from running straight to the bedroom after one quick kiss then you have issues. Quite frankly this whole issue seems like it's been blown out of proportion.
In my entire life, I've kissed 2 people. The guy I dated my freshman year of high school and the guy I'm dating now. I have no regrets. Both are very nice, Godly guys and were (and are) very respectful to me.
Now is the temptation to go further there? Absolutely. But I'm able to resist it. I don't think that I'm sinning and my boyfriend and I definitely do not spend all our time kissing. We watch a lot of Sportscenter :)
If you feel called to save your first kiss for the alter, then that is your business. I really don't think the issue here is with kissing, the issue is with people trying to make a blanket rule for everyone in the world to follow. It doesn't work like that.
63. Amy D. said the following at 1:00 PM on Jul 10:
Genesis 29:11 -- "Then Jacob kissed Rachel, and lifted his voice and wept." (NASB)
They would not be married for another 14 years...
64. NSL said the following at 1:00 PM on Jul 10:
i've noticed this error in several posts....
can i just say, it's "altar"!! :)
65. Kyra said the following at 1:05 PM on Jul 10:
I think this is an interesting issue because it's something I've done a 180 turn on since college. To be specific, I used to be for kissing during dating, and now I agree with the pastor's take, that it should be reserved for after marriage. Here is my take on the issue:
I used to think that people who dated and didn't kiss were abstaining from kissing because they had some weird, prudish and backwards ideas about sexuality. Like maybe they were using the "I'm pure and Christian" argument as a cover just to keep from engaging in something that made them uncomfortable. I thought it was over the top prudishness.
Now that I'm a single mom looking to meet a great guy, I have to say my views on sex, sexuality and foreplay have changed drastically. One thing to consider with kissing in particular is not just the physical component but the environmental as well. What I mean by that is, kisses other than a kiss hello or goodbye are not something most couples would feel comfortable doing unless they were alone together in a private place. The point being, when you're dating if you really want to make a concerted effort to avoid temptation you shouldn't spend much time alone together in private like at one or the other person's apartment or dorm room. If the only time you spend together is with other couples, with groups of friends or in public places, you won't be doing much romantic kissing. It's not about being able to "control yourself" when you're alone together, it's about having the common sense to avoid being alone together long enough that the physical relationship becomes the primary pursuit or motivator for getting together. Because then where do you go after that? To me these detailed dating rules are not just something for high schoolers but are even more important for adults. Because the older we are, the more likely we are to be living alone, away from family etc. and the more opportunities we have to be alone with the person we are dating.
As for "types of kissing", I think you shouldn't do anything in private you wouldn't do in a church pew or in front of your grandmother. To me that seems like a pretty good rule of thumb to be able to show affection without it turning sexual. Otherwise, doesn't the whole relationship then become about playing with boundaries?
66. Heidi said the following at 1:30 PM on Jul 10:
NSL #64, thanks for the correction. :)
67. Amir Larijani said the following at 1:33 PM on Jul 10:
Amy D says:
Now let's discuss the ramifications of that, shall we?
Yes, Jacob kissed Rachel. Yes, he fell--head over heels--for Rachel. He was even willing to work for 7 years to marry her, except that Laban--the father-in-law--pulled the switcheroo on him and gave him Leah instead.
So now we have Jacob, unable to settle for Leah...so he tortures himself for another 7 years to be able to marry Rachel.
That's not bad enough.
Leah was clearly an unloved spouse, and Jacob's favoritism toward Rachel caused much discord between her and Leah.
One could make the case that the Reuben scanal--wherein he defiled his father's marriage bed--and even the animosity between Joseph and his brothers--was a direct result of that discord, the result of Jacob being unable to settle for Leah, who was swapped for Rachel, with whom he shared his first kiss.
A lot of good that first kiss did...
68. Ted Slater said the following at 1:40 PM on Jul 10:
Amy D. (#63), you wrote that Jacob and Rachel "would not be married for another 14 years."
Actually, they were married a bit more than 7 years later.
You'll also notice verse 13, in which Laban (Rachel's dad) "embraced" and "kissed" Jacob. Perhaps the kiss Laban and Jacob exchanged was similar to the one Rachel and Jacob exchanged: platonic, rather than romantic.
69. Heidi said the following at 1:48 PM on Jul 10:
"Genesis 29:11 -- "Then Jacob kissed Rachel, and lifted his voice and wept." (NASB)
They would not be married for another 14 years..." ~ Amy D #63
Other biblical references show that this kind of kissing was cultural, not romantic:
- "But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept." Genesis 33:4
- "Then [Joseph] threw his arms around his brother Benjamin and wept, and Benjamin embraced him, weeping. And he kissed all his brothers and wept over them." Genesis 45:14-15
- "Joseph threw himself upon his father and wept over him and kissed him." Genesis 50:1
- At David and Jonathan's parting: "Then they kissed each other and wept together—but David wept the most." 1 Samuel 20:41
- At the apostle Paul's final parting: "They all wept as they embraced him and kissed him." Acts 20:37
***switching to NASB now to show exact same wording as the verse you quoted***
"And Naomi said to her two daughters-in-law, "Go, return each of you to her mother's house. ...May the LORD grant that you may find rest, each in the house of her husband." Then she kissed them, and they lifted up their voices and wept." Ruth 1:8-9
So in order to say the kissing between Jacob and Rachel was of a romantic nature, you also have to say the kissing between Ruth and her daughters-in-law, between David and Jonathan, between the apostle Paul and his fellow Christians, between Joseph and his father, and all other examples shown here were all of a romantic nature as well.
The act of kissing and weeping over one another was certainly one of deep affection, but from these biblical references it's clear that the act was not perceived as romantic involvement.
70. Jackie said the following at 1:57 PM on Jul 10:
We have a mantra that us leaders encourage with the youth group, called the Grandma rule:
"If you can do it to your Grandma, you can do it to your date."
(Pause. Allow the visual to develop. There you go.)
Seems pretty clear to me. Be above reproach: 1 Tim 5:2. Would you do it with your sister/brother/Grandma? Then don't do it with your date.
Re: the first kiss being at the altar, with cameras, etc.: have any posters experienced this? How did it go?
Although I was previously concerned about awkwardness, I now believe that during that first amazing kiss, I will not be paying attention to anyone but him. :)
71. Amir Larijani said the following at 2:06 PM on Jul 10:
Ted: Good point. In Middle Eastern culture, it is not uncommon for family members to greet each other with kisses--in both cheeks. On the Iranian side of my family, it is in fact very common.
In fact, people who are highly regarded in Iran, often have people running up to kiss them in public.
(Some of us who are old enough remember all those demonstrators slobbering on the Ayatollah Khomeini when he strolled into Iran.)
I'm not ready to suggest that Jacob's kiss of Rachel, however, was platonic. Not by a long shot. He was head-over-heels for her.
72. Nathan said the following at 2:08 PM on Jul 10:
The Bible is silent on whether particular actions are foreplay or not. It tells us to avoid things that lead us to sin (Math 5) and we're to do things with complete purity (Eph 5). But these are all dealing with motivations and heart issues. It is a good discussion to think through whether this or that action might be foreplay. Kissing certainly can be. But because it can be does not mean it must be. We have to be careful to (1) recognize freedom and also (2) not use our freedom in a way that may cause our brothers and sisters to fall.
The Bible doesn't define foreplay, which means we should be very, very careful to bind the conscience with regards to what it is.
73. Nathan said the following at 2:17 PM on Jul 10:
And for those who like to quote 1 Tim 5:2
That's a great passage that has some wisdom for how to other Christians. Is it wise to generally treat other women as sisters? Absolutely. But please, don't bind people's conscience with a verse that doesn't have the universality that we try to give it. 1 Timothy is a letter written to a pastor/elder/bishop in how to deal with his congregation and other local congregations that he is leading. It is in that context that it should be read.
Anyway, why do we assume 1 Tim 5:2 only deals with the physical? If we are being honest, we should be applying 1 Tim 5:2 to our emotional life, and then any kind of dating or even courting relationship is out because the idea of dating/courting hinges on the idea of placing some unique romantic interest in one person ... a kind of unique interest in considering marriage which I can't (or shouldn't) have towards my actual biological sister!!
It should be clear that 1 Tim 5:2 can't be used to bind the conscience to say that you can only do with your girlfriend what you'd do with your sister. That might be a wise rule, but let's respect scripture by not trying to give our good but not necessarily scriptural ideas the authority of Scripture!!
74. Ariana said the following at 2:22 PM on Jul 10:
I think what a kiss is depends a lot on what you intend it to be. The long, drawn-out kissing sessions can easily become foreplay when boundaries have not been clearly defined and one's true commitment to save sex isn't as strong and you say it is.
I believe that if a person is 100% committed in their heart to not have sex, then they are not going to have sex, period; and will do what it takes to ensure that they aren't in a situation where they are going to fall. The committment must go beyond the mere knowledge that pre-marital sex is wrong. It is impossible to have sex by accident. Yeah, people can definitely get carried away, but there are sooo many stopping points on the path to sexual intercourse that it can't really be termed an "accident."
I think that more often than not we have to ask whether we are being honest with ourselves about what it is we are doing and our real intentions. When we say a kissing is just kissing, do we honestly mean that, or are we just telling ourselves that so that we can push the lines?
I think it all depends on where your heart is, which is why some couples can kiss and even make out without losing control and others can't. I'd wager that the couples who maintain self-control regardless of where they draw the boundaries are the ones actually being honest with themselves and one another about what their personal limits are and their committment not to fornicate. (Not that making out is okay, but not everyone who makes out ends up having sex. I think there's a good reason why.)
75. Erica said the following at 2:30 PM on Jul 10:
On a normal day I wouldn't consider taking advice from a person who is a former prostitute, transsexual and gay man about sexual matter.
Why Matt Brown and Candice Watters alway try to write blog on issue that is controversial and create emotional storm. Most article about premarital kissing on this blog was written by one or the other of them.
In the olden days people used to kiss on day and the rate of premarital sex and divorce were less. Why not discussed the stigma that were removed from premarital sex for causing more problems that kissing before marriage.
I also noticed that person who waited for the wedding day to have their first kiss general have a shorter dating period than those who kiss. You see the anxiety for physical seems greater that promotes a shorter dating time. Those persons here who waited until their wedding day to kiss how long did you date for. Perhap I'm wrong. How did you manage when the guest started to cheer on the bride and groom to kiss?
76. Ted Slater said the following at 2:50 PM on Jul 10:
Some have stated that kissing for the first time at the wedding altar must be awkward, for the couple and for their guests.
My wife has given me permission to share a video of our first kiss, which was after the pastor told me, "Ted, you may kiss your bride."
I'll plan to share that next week. I doubt anyone will find it terribly awkward.
77. Jackie said the following at 3:11 PM on Jul 10:
@Nathan (73): I think I've been misunderstood. But, thank you for your passion to defend doctrine!
Please allow me to clarify so as not to lead others astray… By quoting 1 Tim, I mean to identify the attitude that we should strive to have toward other believers, whether we are married to them or not. A person's attitude toward their family should be one of love, desiring the best for that person. (Whoops. I may be misunderstood again: I'm not saying that we should marry our siblings. Let’s use common sense.)
The attitude of love (i.e. the fulfillment of the law) should reign in a non-dating relationship, during a dating relationship, or during marriage. It is what makes a Christian a Christian. Christians should strive to deal with others in the absolute purity which suits the status of that relationship. Before marriage, that purity will look a certain way, and during marriage, the purity will look a different way.
I am not saying that 1 Timothy says that people who are not dating should not kiss. Please don’t stretch what I wrote.
You say 1 Tim is directed at a pastor/leader. True. But doesn’t the principal apply to all Christians? Shouldn’t we all strive to protect our family in Christ? Just because a pastor is held to a higher standard doesn’t mean that a “regular” Christian should strive to be… regular. Conclusion: let’s all have a passion to live radically for Jesus by actively and honestly seeking him on these issues.**
**Note: my conclusion does not impose a directive toward any person posting here or reading this post as to what Jesus might tell you specifically about kissing. Let’s take a moment to note that Purity is not about what you shouldn’t DO, but about what you ARE. Purity is living in a way that reflects Jesus. Your body is a temple, to be filled with the Spirit of God.
I pray that we will all humble our personal opinions to the Word of God and the Spirit, so they become neither dogmatic or flippant in their approach.
P.S. Thanks, Ted!
78. Tara said the following at 3:55 PM on Jul 10:
Someone (#70) asked for an example of kissing for the first time on the wedding day, and I have one to share.
I wasn't nervous, because my husband had prepared me for it at the rehearsal the night before (where only our very close friends and family were present) by very briefly showing my how he'd take a step closer, hold my hands in his, tilt his head etc. He had thought through this and decided that it would be thoughtful to plan it out, but also to wait to share it with me until the rehearsal, lest we be tempted to practice. :)
I don't have a video, but if I did, you'd see a very sweet, tender 4-second kiss on slightly opened lips, and then my husband and I both opening our eyes and giving each other a HUGE wide-eyed smile. Our friends and family in the audience, who knew how special that kiss was, smiled, laughed and clapped. Our photographer was sure to capture the moment (he was a family member), and the photo shows one of the bridesmaids and groomsmen smiling at each other - they were also engaged and waiting for their first kiss, so that photo has a double significance. Our smile was a knowing one - because we knew that know we were married, we were about to get a lot of practice!
Really, if you're thoughtful and take it slow, it only takes a few minutes to learn how to kiss - have no fear that you will find yourself horribly inept when the time comes! It takes such a short time for that very special "first" to be over, and my husband and I chose to only ever learn the shape of each other's lips and the taste of each other's mouths. Why would we want to know anyone else so deeply? I was surprised hpw many times during our honeymoon we said to each other after kissing: "I am SO glad we didn't do that before marriage!"
So if you're holding to a high standard, please don't fear - it makes for a beautiful moment, and if you're like us, you'll have a less distracted courtship because of it. A bit of nervousness on the wedding day is a healthy part of that. After all, it's a big deal! :)
79. Loris said the following at 5:18 PM on Jul 10:
Future Mrs. Larijani,
I have that in my college quote book as "about 20 minutes." Quite a difference! I guess it was one of that professor's favorite jokes and he changed up the duration to amuse himself.
80. Chris said the following at 9:37 PM on Jul 10:
Ted writes:
I'm really puzzled about this one, folks. Do any of you really see "kissing on the mouth for an extended period of time" as non-sexual?
Possibly. Sometime I approach my wife and give her a long kiss when I get home. This is done while the kids are asking what's for dinner, the dog is pestering me to have its bowl filled, and the cat is whining to be let out. One would hardly call this situation foreplay.....
81. Nathan said the following at 10:35 PM on Jul 10:
Jackie #77 - thanks for your gracious response. I think (as can usually happens with blog posts) we're both misunderstanding each other and the words become a lot harsher than they were meant to be. I appreciate everything you've written and I agree that 1 Tim 5:2 has some very wise principles for dealing with absolute purity with all other believers. And I do think that the teaching has bearing on all Christians, what I meant to reference by focusing on Timothy's status as an elder was not that the principles don't have bearing to all Christians (as in some sort of hierarchy of standards), but in his role as a pastor ... and to remind ourselves that these aren't quite rule for Christian living that have no exceptions, but general good ideas for living holy. To take a general principle for Christian living and apply it rigidly to dating/courting is terrible hermeneutics.
All I'm trying to attack is very reduced and legalistic use of 1 Tim 5:2. If I come across as harsh, and I do apologize for that, it is mostly that I'm harsh with myself as I used to be something of a twit with some legalistic tendencies. What I'm trying to avoid is an attitude in dating that very mechanically says "if can do this with my sister, than I can do this with my girlfriend." That's not what that passage is about, at all ... and to try to twist scripture to make a point - even if that point is a potentially wise one to hold is actually doing everybody a disservice.
I like your point about purity being what we are. I think too often we define purity by not doing 'impure things' and then we get wrapped around axles trying to define those 'impure' things. I was struck a few months ago by my married friend who said something along the lines of: "my wife and I were pure until we married" but surely he was mistaken in that opinion. Sexual intimacy within marriage IS pure. At least that what the author of Hebrews thinks (Heb 13:4).
When my girlfriend and I have had conversations about what is an appropriate level of physical affection, I've been conscious that the motivation is not defining lines that we don't cross, but thinking through how we are using physical affection to encourage each other, communicating and re-affirming the things that we're saying in every other way (verbal, acts of service, etc). With that attitude there are certain things (in particular making out, types of caressing, and everything beyond that) that are clearly not good ideas because they are unhelpful in causing lust and sin ... and that is NOT encouraging or serving or honoring the other person. However, other things - kiss on the cheek, hugs, holding hands, etc - communicate and re-affirm and the sense of exclusivity and special status that goes along with the dating/courting relationship. As in everything, the motivation we hold in doing something can make all the difference between two actions that are otherwise identical on the outside.
82. goodNight said the following at 11:03 PM on Jul 10:
I am glad to hear so many perspectives on this issue.
Personally, I do not want to give a single kiss to any person except the man I will marry. Best case, I would wait until my wedding day for that long-anticipated first kiss.
My only hang-up, at this point, is that I agree wholeheartedly with Jen, poster 33. I cannot imagine having that first kiss viewed by a crowd, in all its awkwardness and tenderness and expectation. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to either ease the fear or to creatively avoid crowd-kiss-viewing? Ideas would be fantastic.
83. Katrece said the following at 11:51 PM on Jul 10:
I haven't read past post #40 so I know I'm way behind on the comments.
#33: I think the question you posed is good. But I will never be in that situation. Right now I'm holding to something along the lines of engagement-and-beyond as a time-frame for kissing.
I have heard of a lot of people, and I am good friends with some people, who have waited to kiss until they're at the altar. I couldn't put myself in that situation. It would feel so AWKWARD! Some of the couples have said they weren't too bothered by it. I totally respect them. From what I've seen it's usually just a shy, tiny peck. One couple went all out with their first kiss. Another couple didn't even kiss. They were prounced man and wife, held hands, and walked off the stage.
There is one thing I have often heard the officiant declare during, or at the end, of these kind of ceremonies. It is something along these lines, "I present to you Mr. and Mrs. X. You may share your first kiss." Then I hear the drum roll and the trumpet sounding. Da, Da, Da, Da, Da...
Unfortunately there are instances, not all, but some, where the couple/and or the pastor act piously. I said some. Please don't think I believe that refers to most couples.
#23 I totally agree with you. Some of my friends are ultra-conservative. I love them and appreciate them. I have friends that fall in the middle of this issue. I also know people that use grace as an excuse to sin. Paul's words come to mind, "What then, shall we sin so that grace may abound? May it never be!"
If I'm with people who are discussing this issue, I freely express my opinion. I don't speak dogmatically unless I am compelled to do so. Sorry, if you and your boyfriend have your hands all over each other you've gone to far. And no, I'm not condemning hugging.
I was invited to 27 weddings last year and made it to 25. Around six or eight of those were, "first kiss" weddings. Only one of those six to eight weddings included a couple who was blatantly prideful of their choice. That pride was displayed by the way they propped themselves up prior to the wedding and after. Of course a few of the other weddings had people whose actions prior to marriage were totally unrestrained. The rest of the couples' weddings landed somewhere between the two spectrums.
84. Phoebe said the following at 12:19 AM on Jul 11:
One thing I think about is - - where do the hands go? At an altar kiss, they are firmly behind the shoulders. Do we expect all premarital kisses to have the same level of public purity?
I think we are whole beings, and to me a kiss on the mouth would easily to a touch on the lower back to arousal. Maybe I'll find that I can purely have a short kiss when I have a fiance, but I'm suspicious of anything extended.
85. Jo said the following at 1:51 AM on Jul 11:
I think Ariana #74 has a very sensible point.
"I believe that if a person is 100% committed in their heart to not have sex, then they are not going to have sex, period; and will do what it takes to ensure that they aren't in a situation where they are going to fall."
So, a few years ago I was dating a non-Christian guy and did quite a few things that Boundless would strongly advise against. Lots of kissing, and even staying over at his house - in his room in fact. (I know, I know.) I did have boundaries, which he respected - but if I'd decided to throw them out the window, he wouldn't have been complaining.
I'm not saying this because I think any of it was a good idea - I don't. My boundaries would be in very different places now. For a start, I wouldn't be dating a non-Christian in the first place! But I can honestly, seriously say that at no point was there even a small chance that it was going to go any further. I had set my boundaries, and there simply wasn't any thought in my mind of crossing them.
Now I'll grant you that that relationship didn't last very long, and if it had gone on longer it might have got harder - but I think if you have very fixed boundaries it helps a lot - even if they're a little further along the path than one would hope...
86. Charlotte C. said the following at 2:12 AM on Jul 11:
#75 Erica,
I don't think these discussions have caused a storm or anything like that. I found them to be very helpful, actually.
Even though I have my personal point of view of what I think, I enjoy reading the comments here of others of what they think of the topic.
:)
87. FutureMrsLarijani said the following at 7:39 AM on Jul 11:
"showing my how he'd take a step closer, hold my hands in his, tilt his head etc. He had thought through this and decided that it would be thoughtful to plan it out, but also to wait to share it with me until the rehearsal, lest we be tempted to practice. "
Oh wow . . . that's better than any chick flick, romance novel, or soap opera.
After reading this description I let out a dreamy sigh.
Thank you for sharing.
88. Kelly said the following at 9:28 AM on Jul 11:
I don't kiss ANYONE these days, aside from immediate family (and even then, only on the cheek. Never on the lips!)
I learned the hard way that nasty diseases can be spread by kissing. I landed in hospital TWICE after kissing boyfriends-at-the-time. (You'd think I would have learned after the first time, but oh no, I was stubborn, God had to teach me again!)
89. brx said the following at 10:52 PM on Jul 11:
Re: Becky [#59];
"Sexual purity is an issue that should be between an individual and God. No one else is in a position to say what's okay for someone else.
I think that statement sounds rather revealing of a common plague in much of American church society: 'life is about me and my relationship with God; and what goes on in my bedroom is no one else's business.'
There are a few problems with that reasoning. For one, the follower of Christ is called to live in the context of intimate community with others - and the fidelity of one's relationships actually DOES have an impact on the health of the community.
The Bible teaches that we are our brother's (and sister's) keeper; so, we do have some duty to _lovingly_ ask them 'what did you do last night?'
Grace, peace & adventure in the awkward conversations
90. brx said the following at 11:14 PM on Jul 11:
Re: Rob [#56];
Thanks for your thoughtful research into the Herpes Simplex Virus (HSV) issue. I think that knowledge can go a long way toward having a caring discussion with a potential spouse - but definitely not in the first few dates! :>
To be honest, I don't know if I'm an infected HSV carrier or not. Though I can't remember ever having any symptoms, I do frequently interact with many people, have been to third-world contries and spent extensive time interacting with children - and during all this, have never been religious about using hand sanitizer nor keeping my hands away from my mouth, nose, and eyes. So, this is a talk I'll have sometime with the girl I'm courting...
Grace, peace & trusting God through the awkward conversations
91. Lucy Goosey said the following at 8:33 PM on Jul 12:
It'd be interesting to have a survey of Christians (because if you are not a Christian...why does this discussion even matter other than to read the point of view of those who profess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior???)...
who HAVE NOT been affected by kissing versus those who HAVE been affected by kissing before marriage. I mean...I...a Christian...do not need to kiss behavior marriage, because of my experience doing just that (in daylight…or nightlight). Maybe others have more self-control.
Perhaps those who say they've kissed and are okay with it have been "controlled" better because they were kissing each other in front of others in broad daylight...on target??? no???
Perhaps those who say they won't kiss have been "un-controlled" because they were kissing each other by themselves in the nightlight...daylight...both??? on target? no?
Who knows?...all I know is that the Bible speaks the sentiment of not setting ourselves up for failure...to guard our hearts...to know that we shouldn't think we are too strong not to fail...
Finally, I'm sure not many people have even sought God FIRST about the matter anyway. People...like me...seem to just do what we want and pay for the consequences later and argue to and fro about what is right and what is wrong without seeking first the Kingdom of God on a personal level.
Maybe a simple question to God is, "God, half the Christians are saying this/half that…should I kiss before marriage, Lord?...show me your ways..." (people probably do pray this...but after the hurt...)
And that's my word on it!
92. Lucy Goosey said the following at 8:43 PM on Jul 12:
Also, I'm not trying to set up an argument on daylight or nightlight...in front of people...not in front of people...that doesn't even matter. Because I know people can go on about stuff like that...as we've read.
What I do want to go on about is the ONE we should ask in the first place...
So much division for people who have ONE GOD to seek about this...
What do nonbelievers think about how Christians seek or don't seek God for such matters?
What are we pointing them to? Our opinions?...or how we seek our FIRST LOVE about such issues?
But that would keep us from arguing opinions wouldn't it??? That would probably leave out our Father wouldn't it and be more about our opinions wouldn't it?
Perhaps the world isn't any fun when we can't argue like it.
93. Ted Slater said the following at 1:43 PM on Jul 13:
Chris (#80) -- you wrote:
"Sometime I approach my wife and give her a long kiss when I get home. This is done while the kids are asking what's for dinner, the dog is pestering me to have its bowl filled, and the cat is whining to be let out. One would hardly call this situation foreplay."
Chris, you can be so frustrating sometimes. I specifically asked, "Do any of you really see 'kissing on the mouth for an extended period of time' as non-sexual?" I specifically did *not* ask, "Do any of you really see 'kissing on the mouth for an extended period of time' as foreplay."
Chris, you give your ****WIFE**** a "long kiss." Do you give your children a "long kiss" on the lips when you get home? No, of course not, because it is ****SEXUAL****, a type of kiss best reserved for the appropriate person in the appropriate context: marriage.
Again, I wonder, why is it so hard for some to be unable to recognize the significance of a long kiss on the mouth.
94. IMO said the following at 2:43 PM on Jul 13:
hey Lucy, opinions can be important...
especially when people seek to align their opinions to God's Will...
and I think you are missing the part of exhortation, and Christians seeking to sharpen one another....
Christians can have differing opinions. It's OK to discuss and learn from each other.
95. Holly said the following at 3:10 PM on Jul 13:
Ted, Ted, Ted. Your most recent comment's "voice" only went up half an octave. You're losing your touch. :-P
Seriously, where is the anti-Sotomayor post I've been waiting for? Legal department still reviewing it? There's a bet in my office. If Motte writes it instead of you I automatically lose, but if you write it I could potentially make a fair amount of chocolate (we don't bet money, we bet M&M's).
96. Ted Slater said the following at 4:12 PM on Jul 13:
Holly -- I've thought of a title for it: "Justice is Not Blind: It's a Hispanic Woman." ;-)
I'm tired of political posts, to be frank. And more-so because the last one I wrote failed Orthodoxy review and was consequently not published....
97. BDB said the following at 4:28 PM on Jul 13:
#96 wrote:
>>and was consequently not published....<<
The protests are still going on in that country-which-shall-not-be-named, too.
98. Holly said the following at 4:29 PM on Jul 13:
Aw, darn! I tease you, but in all honesty the politics vs./in conjunction with religion discussions that this blog creates in my (mostly secular) workplace are genuinely helpful and interesting.
You have a little one turning 1 soon, if I recall? (My birthday is coming up and you had a child born near my birthday last year...) Happy birthday and congrats to the Slater family!
99. Ted Slater said the following at 4:44 PM on Jul 13:
BDB, nope, this one referenced Kenya.
Holly, yup, our youngest daughter just turned 1, on July 11. She's just about able to walk around on her own -- very fun to watch.
100. BDB said the following at 4:50 PM on Jul 13:
#99 - Ah...well, there's protests there, too.