In Defense of 'I Kissed Dating Goodbye'
by Ted Slater on 07/13/2009 at 3:54 PM
I understand the concerns expressed in Suzanne's recent post, and appreciate that some may have come to regret how Joshua Harris' book I Kissed Dating Goodbye has affected their dating philosophy.
Here's the thing, though: I think that too many people have simply read the title of Joshua's book, or heard others give caricatures of the principles explored in it, and have gone on to either reject its biblical messages altogether or embrace an anti-social perversion of it.
The author of the article that Suzanne references in her blog, for example, seems to have misunderstood what Joshua was saying, and implemented that faulty set of principles, and now has rejected it. He came to believe, for example, that the choice was between "actually speaking to a girl" and "refusing to date based on my loyalty to spiritualized groupthink." Both are bad options, and he went with the latter for a few years.
Good for him for changing his mind; bad on him for his cynical tone and mischaracterization of what Joshua had written, and for not owning up to his own relational mistakes. Instead of blaming his "insecurity" and "struggle with confidence" and "awkwardness" with dating on "some stupid, self-righteous decision I made in high school," for example, blame it on something that has a biblical remedy: fear of man.
Joshua Harris recognizes that there are many misunderstandings about his first book, and has responded to some of them on his Web site.
I still stand by the message of that book that premature, short-term romantic attachments can be a big distraction from serving God -- especially for teenagers. But in the years since I've also seen that a legalistic application of these ideas can be unhelpful, too.
One of the misapplications has been cutting off guy-girl relationships altogether, something he's not encouraging in the least:
The heart behind [this book] is not to force someone not to date or not have relationships with the opposite sex. The message behind it is really "don't pursue romance until you're really ready for commitment."
That's exactly what we say at Boundless: Dating is great when it's intentional, when you're in it to try to figure out whether someone could become your spouse.
Harris goes on:
I encourage anyone: If anything in your life becomes more important than God, and keeps you from serving Him, you should be willing to kiss it goodbye.
Joshua had just come out of a sinful relationship. He knew that the way he had been "doing dating" was wrong, principally because he hadn't put God first. May we adopt this same attitude, that if we're dating in a way that diminishes God, may we be counter-cultural enough to kiss it goodbye.
And may we stop blaming Joshua for our relational failures, own up to our misunderstandings and mistakes, and press on.
1. BDB said the following at 3:59 PM on Jul 13:
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Dude! You are totally going to split the comments!
2. Sarah22 said the following at 4:16 PM on Jul 13:
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I agree 100%!
I also don't like the idea that someone is basically a "dating weirdo" or however you want to term it, because you're a 20 something and you've never been on a date.
I refuse to feel ashamed because I'll be 24 next month and I've only been on 1 date before....I don't think that in any way detracts from my personality and social skills. I don't believe that I haven't been on more dates because there is something awkward about me.
3. BDB said the following at 4:22 PM on Jul 13:
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The OP wrote:
>>The message behind it is really "don't pursue romance until you're really ready for commitment."<<
Ok, maybe we should talk about this on this thread.
Ponder this:
Someone who does get that message, especially if they have an analytical mind, might actually do the math and figure out what it would take to support a family. A socially acceptable placeholder is owning a 3-bedroom house. If you can afford to own a house (under the standard rules for a 30-year fixed rate mortgage,) you can theoretically also afford to support a family - you are ready for the commitment.
A man can be entirely consistent with Harris' theory if he avoids dating until after he owns a house.
Problem is, that might take 10 years of career advancement.
Now he's 32, and people are blaming him for delaying marriage.
4. MallieMarie said the following at 4:40 PM on Jul 13:
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BDB- Spot on prediction lol. Again, I would refer readers the the 9marks interview with Dever, Mohler, and Harris. One portion in particular deals with the tension of waiting for romance and intentionally seeking marriage. Also, on the Covenant Life Church resource page, Harris has a good message called "Courtship Schmortship", in which he addresses the temptation to legalize dating. The heart of it is that we have a sincere and pure love for each other, and behave to please God.
5. Jeni said the following at 4:42 PM on Jul 13:
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I think I Kissed Dating Goodbye has lead to a whole generation of people to kissing marriage goodbye.
6. Jeremiah said the following at 4:48 PM on Jul 13:
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I think the difficulty is that many of us are ready (and willing) to commit, and also have a good idea of how to “date” in a way that is God –honoring. However, we meet other Christians that now believe that somehow dating is taboo and unbiblical just because they read what Joshua said and took it one step too far.
I personally happen to still see a great deal of value in one-on-one dating as a way to find out what someone else is really about. Let’s be honest, in a group setting, everyone’s personality is somewhat different than one on one. Plus, in a group, the attentions are divided and not focused on having meaningful conversations about the things that truly matter in a marriage – i.e., perspective on family, debt, children, work ethic, vision for the future... Can you imagine getting engaged to someone without first knowing their views on these topics? I certainly can’t.
On a different topic, I feel so thankful every day that Jesus did not decide to “guard his heart” in the way that many Christian authors are now advocating (including Harris). For me, I’ve decided to do the complete opposite. I have an unlimited source of love from which to draw, because God loved me first. Beacuase of that love, I now have no intention of ever “guarding my heart”. Shame on all the Christians out there that are advocating anything else.
7. Kirsten E said the following at 5:11 PM on Jul 13:
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Jeni (#5):
That is certainly not true in my church or college friends. Of course some of us are not married yet (I'm 25 and have never dated), but that doesn't mean we have kissed marriage goodbye. I am confident that I am in the season God wants me in.
General comment:
I think I was about 13 when I first heard Josh speak about courtship. Almost without realizing it I accepted it, and only recently was forced to wrestle with the ideas and decide if it is truly what I believed. I know now that no relationship works out as "an ideal courtship," but I am so grateful for the wise teaching of Josh, and others. The application will be different for different people. All seasons, whether waiting for a relationship, or entering a courtship or dating relationship, need to be walked out with humility, a desire to honor and obey God, and faith in God's love and sovereignty. There aren't easy answers, but that is how we learn to depend on God for all things and in all seasons.
8. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:40 PM on Jul 13:
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BDB (3): Too true, I fear - many guys will feel that pressure, and delay things accordingly.
However, that leaves out the incredible motivational power that girls have on guys: he'll work a lot harder to get a house if he has a girl depending on him to do so! I've seen this before . . .
You point to another interesting issue here: there aren't many "ready for commitment" boys of 17 from which girls of 17 could choose. In effect, we can end up banning girls from "dating" until they reach 32 and the guys catch up in providing houses, etc! The alternative is to point the 17-year-old girls at the 32-year-old guys with houses, which seems unpopular in this culture.
So unpopular, in fact, that I fear Jeni (5) is right: by applying the various rules, _everybody_ is excluded for one reason or another!
9. Jeremy said the following at 6:14 PM on Jul 13:
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I tend to agree that I Kissed Dating Goodbye has done a lot more harm than good. It seems that a ton of people have read the book and come up with completely different ideas about what the book is really saying. This is why the book is harmful. It's message was confusing at best and it title is even worse. I relate very much to Tim Hollands original article. And even though I'm sure Josh Harris had the best of intentions in writing his book - I believe the result was that for many young people who needed more of a shove out the door into the world of dating, the book created an environment that has actually worked against encouraging marriage.
10. Heidi said the following at 6:19 PM on Jul 13:
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Jeni (#5) you might find the book "Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?" by Carolyn McCulley, to be a helpful read.
11. brx said the following at 7:09 PM on Jul 13:
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Re: BDB [#3];
Ok, so we pondered that. Wouldn't you and I suggest that 32yr old followed good-sounding yet poor advice - and maybe followed some of his own pride too?
Grace, peace & corrective humility
12. brx said the following at 7:26 PM on Jul 13:
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Harris has received a lot of feedback and insight over the past years regarding those two books and here are a couple messages to the _whole_ church, to correct some all too common misconceptions. Harris' Nov 2005 messages to the whole church:
"Courtship, Schmourtship"
http://www.covlife.org/resources 2005_11_20.mp3
"It's a Community Project"
http://www.covlife.org/resources 2005_11_27.mp3
Covenant Life (Josh Harris' church) singles ministry message archive:
http://www.covlife.org/resources/ministry/Singles
Recommend the 'Relationships' series - from Feb 2003, a _Very_ good, deep, heavy-duty (9month!) series on "Relationships". Covenant Life singles ministry structure emphasizes passionately living for Christ with a strong culture of mentoring & discipleship, and providing many caring pastoral resources for that.
Also, Harris' "Rescuing Sex" three-part series was presented within the 9mo relationships series.
Grace, peace & adventure in the awkward but honest & clear communication
13. Lynn said the following at 7:27 PM on Jul 13:
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I think this maybe my first time agreeing with one of Ted's posts.
The article Suzanne was referencing, as well as many of the responses to her post, display distortions/misunderstandings of the point Joshua Harris was making in his book. A major problem with people’s reactions is they ignore all of the many healthy, useful ways we can interact with members of the opposite sex outside of “dating” situations. It seems clear to me that Harris was not arguing that people should necessarily avoid a senior prom, or even an occasional casual outing with a member of the opposite sex. He was, however, warning against prematurely intimate, pseudo-committed relationships among singles who are not considering marriage.
Holland himself (the author of the article Suzanne referenced) noted that he just used “not dating” as an excuse to “…escape the pressure of asking a girl to a school dance”, and that he spent years “blocking thoughts of attraction”.
Moreover, at the end of Holland’s article, he seems to confess that Harris’ book had nothing to do with his failure to pursue relationships. In his own words, he says, “I used to think this whole awkwardness I have with dating—the way my mind goes blank around an attractive girl or how unsure I am at making the first move—was the result of some stupid, self-righteous decision I made in high school. But if that were true, I would have to deny the very core of my masculine existence. When it comes down to it, I am what my formerly lonely cousin complained about to no end: just another slow-moving evangelical dude. The thing that makes me feel different is what makes me a normal man—everybody feels uncomfortable making the move.
Joshua Harris’ book didn’t advocate avoiding members of the opposite sex or male complacency, and people’s misunderstanding/misuse of his book don’t invalidate his arguments. Just look at how many misunderstandings/misinterpretations there are of Bible verses. Yet, those misunderstandings don’t mean that we should discard the Bible.
14. farmer Tom said the following at 8:05 PM on Jul 13:
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I'm going to post this comment on both threads to be fair.
I had just recently gotten married when IKDG came out. I read it with interest because I had come to the point in my own life where I had decided to intentionally pursue marriage, rather than following the worlds pattern of dating. I had decided to quit dating, and instead to be intentional in any future relationship. I was impressed with Harris's work and recommended it to many young people over the years.The book is a useful tool in helping us to think about the purpose of marriage and how one should go about pursuing a marriage partner. I was impressed with Harris's work and recommended it to many young people over the years.
Here's the problem,
The tone of the author Suzanne quotes, and many of the comments here contain a huge red flag to me.
Since when is Josh Harris and his book, Debbie Maken and her foolishness, or any other book on dating, relationships and marriage a valid excuse to whine?
Take some personal responsibility, quit blaming some author, philosophy or fad, for your failure, or anyone else's. You are accountable for your actions before God and His church, after that it's up to you to do what is necessary for finding and attracting a mate. There is plenty of good advice out there to counter any false ideas or premises offered by Josh Harris or anyone else.
If you have only read Harris's book and no other, frankly you're an idiot. Scripture says in a Proverbs 11:14
If the only dating advice you've ever read is the opinion of one guy named Harris, you are not wise.
Now remember, I liked what he had to say, still do, but you have no right to blame him, for your or anyone else's failure to take personal responsibility for your dating, marriage situation.
15. Lauren T. said the following at 8:17 PM on Jul 13:
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I read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" when I was eighteen. Eight years ago. I had never been on a date before that and I haven't been on one since, but I don't think it had anything to do with the book as it was more interesting to me than convicting.
By the way, to you who are feeling a little odd about reaching 24 and only having one date...how about almost 27 and no dates? That's a funny feeling too. Don't think I haven't worried about it, either...
What I read as the main point of Mr. Harris's book was not to play around with marriage - and the hearts of any men in my life - but to treat it/them with great respect. It wasn't a good idea to "play grownup" too soon because it could end up damaging what God meant to be a wonderful thing: marriage.
I never made a decision not to date and still haven't. I did decide that if I ever went out with someone, it would be because I was genuinely interested in exploring marriage with him - even if it was the very beginning stages of that exploration - not because I was fooling around. I didn't want to be a flirt. However, in "not wanting to be a flirt", I think I held myself so far away from the men around me that I lost the ability for a while to treat them normally.
In retrospect, I think I had too narrow a focus on how marriage should come about, in my mind, looking at the men I grew up with in terms of who I might marry rather than seeing them simply as good men it was good to have in my life. If I'd relaxed a little and treated them more frankly and on a less-demanding basis rather than trying to see too far into the future, it would've been much better. This wasn't the fault of Mr. Harris's book, but I'm probably the kind of person who didn't need extra coaching in taking marriage seriously. I took way too many things way too seriously when I should have relaxed and been more myself. Is that the reason I haven't attracted interest? Quite possibly. But it's still not Mr. Harris's fault.
It's probably can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees people like me who helped create this narrow-focus problem, if it's actually been a problem in churches lately.
16. SarahH said the following at 8:22 PM on Jul 13:
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I loved "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" when I read it two years ago as a sophomore in college (yes, college).
I think one of the reasons I enjoyed it so much was because I was able to separate Harris' personal experiences and decisions from the general principles that he presented in the book. Sure, if you try to do everything as he did, you're going to get a very narrow and legalistic approach to romantic relationships, but if you can critically evaluate what he writes and focus on the general principles rather than how those principles manifested themselves in Harris' own life, you're gonna have a whole lot of great food for thought as the application of these general principles can manifest itself differently for you than it did for Harris.
and @ Sarah22(#2): I'm 22 and the only date I've ever been on was to a Homecoming dance "just as friends." I also refuse to be ashamed of this, and I'm glad you aren't ashamed of yourself either. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, (I've even had friends tell me they are jealous of my lack of dating!) and our time (and men!) will come. :-)
17. Steve240 said the following at 8:23 PM on Jul 13:
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Jeni
Good point. Carolyn McCulley has a book with that title. She talks about a group of women she lead in a study that embraced the "kissing dating goodbye" philosophy. She then said that 7 year later or (doing the math) that most of these women weren't married. No where in the book does she even question if "kissing dating goodbye" lead to these women (hopefully at least temporarily) kissing marriage goodbye.
It was like ignoring what might be the obvious.
18. Mike said the following at 8:25 PM on Jul 13:
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I have not read I Kissed Dating Goodbye, but I did read Harris' follow-up book, Boy Meets Girl. I felt compelled to read it after my girlfriend at the time was using it as a rationale for us to break up. So, I picked up a copy from the library and quickly read through it looking for ways to argue with it. Needless to say, I did not enjoy the book.
It's been a few years now, and I've come to the understanding that our relationship ended for reasons other than Joshua Harris (but that the book was a failed attempt to avoid hurting my feelings). I wonder whether by rereading today I'd find the book insightful or not.
19. Nicole said the following at 8:50 PM on Jul 13:
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I don't think there is a formula for figuring out when the right time for dating and marriage. There is some good advice in general, but people are all so different that it can't be one size fits all, and there is always some good and some bad to each way of doing things.
20. Joseph Abraham said the following at 8:54 PM on Jul 13:
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Why do we make things so hard for ourselves?
I feel like as christians we use the term courtship but honestly I feel like no matter how much we spiritualize things relationships are a risk and can still fail even if God is in it. I think the gist of Joshua Harris's book is against unhealthy dating habits but at the same time there are a number of things that are unhealthy that can hinder our spiritual development. For some people not dating for a period of time to develop themselves is a fact even outside of christian circles.
Its all about why you are dating? Who you are dating and how? Plain and simple..if you have heart issues than they need to be addresed with God.
But yeah why is it so complicated. I'll keep plugging along dwelling with God and at the same time being open to relationships hoping for Mrs. Right to come along. Other than that I won't spin myself anymore.
21. Kate said the following at 10:11 PM on Jul 13:
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I have only heard of the existence of this book a short time ago. But, I have thought what my life would be like if I followed the advice this book gives. I am so thankful that I have never taken this type of advice when I was younger. I met my boyfriend when we were both in high school. We started dating and continued our relationship throughout college. What if I had followed Josh's advice and not started any relationship til I could get married? Then I guess I would have never ended up with the man I am going to marry. I cannot imagine my life without him. I had always thought that I would meet the person I would marry in college or where I would work, and I found out later that my boyfriend thought the same thing. But we fell in love anyway regardless of the plans we had made. The thing is I believe God is the person who brings two people together. I think the problem with books like that is that we humans think we can decide when we will meet the person we will marry. Also, people who follow this advice tend to rush things and get married quicker. How is this good for a relationship? Couples I think need to be together for awhile to decide if they're just in love with love or in love with each other. I thank God for the wonderful Christian man he brought into my life and thankful that he knew better than I did.
22. BDB said the following at 10:24 PM on Jul 13:
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brx (#11) wrote:
>>Ok, so we pondered that. Wouldn't you and I suggest that 32yr old followed good-sounding yet poor advice - and maybe followed some of his own pride too?<<
Do your own experiment:
Ask a bunch of 20-somethings if they think delaying marriage until after they can afford a house is a good idea. I'll bet more than 50% agree.
Ask a bunch of 50-somethings the same questions, and more than 50% will say not to wait that long.
It is a generational perception on what "ready" means.
23. Callie said the following at 11:15 PM on Jul 13:
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I agree. I read the book several years after all the controversy and thought, "This is nothing like people say it is." Though Harris set a high bar for holiness and sanctification in dating, the book itself is far from legalistic.
24. Phoebe said the following at 1:02 AM on Jul 14:
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I Kissed Dating Goodbye is one of the most biblically based books I have read. The principles (as I remember them) are these:
* That young people should love God above all other things, even over a desire for a relationship.
* That young people should honor those in parental and spiritual authority over them.
* That young people should honor each other, seeking to edify and protect, not gain cheap thrills and defraud.
Where the problem has come in is in the semantics. Joshua defined "dating" as a casual, ill-considered relationship, and "courtship" as a God- and community- honoring relationship. It was the "dating" RELATIONSHIP Joshua perceived as unholy. Unfortunately, the process of getting to know another person by having a "date," got thrown away as well. And the process of getting to know someone in a God- and community- honoring way became associated with "courtship," which some defined in legalistic terms. (i. e., you are never alone with a boy, you always have your parents in the room, etc!) This has thrown many people. One friend of mine who had loyally held to such legalistic principles later had struggles. She "dated!" God worked it out, and now she is married. But she said "courtship didn't work for me!" This was because she had a false, legalistic idea of what "courship.
Joshua himself clarifies this a lot in Boy Meets Girl (in which he asks his love interest Shannon out on a "date" in order to ask her if she would be willing to pursue a relationship. Yes, he went on a "date"!) Over and over again, Joshua states that this is all a matter of the heart, not a matter of semantics. I have known Godly couples who called their times together "dates," and those who have not. It is their respect for God, his Word, his authority in their lives, and his authority through the church community, that makes all the difference.
I personally, am happy to accept a "date" from a young man from the family of faith, a young man I respect. After that, God willing, we will have a God-honoring marriage-directed relationship. Whether we will call it "dating" or "courtship" I do not know!
25. ALH said the following at 5:26 AM on Jul 14:
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The problem is it doesn't matter what the intention of the book is if the author cannot make it clear to the vast majority of the readers. Considering the number of people who have misunderstood the message of the book, at least if what Harris says is true and he is not simply trying to deflect criticism, then I would say the book is an abysmal failure at teaching its message and needs to be recognized as such. Teaching is only as good as the clarity of the message and unfortunately for Harris it seems his teaching in that book was far too muddied.
26. Steve240 said the following at 6:55 AM on Jul 14:
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Maybe one big problem with Josh Harris's books is that he didn't clarify what he wasn't saying or didn't mean. His book was more of a testimonial of what worked for him vs. a manual etc. Thus it left room for a lot of misuse of this "alternative."
brx
Harris does have some updates. One one of the messages you mentioned (Courtship/Smourtship) Josh Harris indicated at his own church that there was a “lack of freeness between men and women in cultivating friendships”. He also used the words “standoffish” and “tightness" in describing how singles of the opposite sex related.
Unfortunately Josh Harris isn't widely sharing these problems on places like his blog where maybe other singles groups could learn from what Harris has found at his own church.
Surprise, "kissing dating goodbye" isn't the perfect alternative that some seem to suggest it is. It has its own problems. People need to be aware of these rather than blindly accept the approach.
27. Alison said the following at 7:46 AM on Jul 14:
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Unfortunately, this book was popular when I was in college. It had a crippling effect on my Christian Fellowship. Guys were afraid to ask girls out on dates. Girls were left questioning if a guy like her. It was the perfect environment for like minded Christians to meet future spouses, but NO ONE Dated!! Those few who did date were looked down on. I just think there were a lot of missed opportunities. Dating gives people the opportunity to get to know each other without the stress of immediately trying to figure out if you want to marry the other person. That said I had a couple friends whose courtships were called all. Watching them go through that was one of the most heartbreaking thing I've ever seen.
28. Margaret said the following at 9:39 AM on Jul 14:
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"And may we stop blaming Joshua for our relational failures, own up to our misunderstandings and mistakes, and press on."
Thanks for making that point Ted. We can't point to somebody's book and say they had a negative impact on our life. I read I Kissed Dating Good-bye last year at 16 and I would never hesitate to recommend it. I don't think Joshua ever meant to discourage marriage. Rather it was an encouragement to me to keep myself pure so that when I do marry, I don't pull a long line of regrets behind me and that my marriage is all that God intends for it to be.
29. Erica said the following at 9:39 AM on Jul 14:
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Farmer Tom, I agree with you 100 percent.
Before I got married I read a lot of different books on marriage and courtship. During this time I believe I read about ten. There are plus and minus with everyone of them.
I have never read Joshua Harris book because I have never seen it in the stores where I shop. Also, probaby because I am not living in the USA.
30. Joel said the following at 9:51 AM on Jul 14:
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I was going to post this on the other thread, but perhaps it is more appropriate here. When I first read the book, my primary conclusion was that he was arguing semantics, and it could have been done in significantly fewer words. Taking the least Christian definition of dating - trying to get some action and have a good time with no possibility of commitment - he proceeded to explain why people should kiss it goodbye. My definition of dating was and is more along the lines of "Getting to know someone to determine their suitability for marriage," so he pretty much alienated me right off the bat unnecessarily. While someone who has the former definition of dating probably should kiss it "goodbye," they should do so not because it is "dating" and not "courting" but because it is at cross-purposes with God's plan for marriage. While the book did encourage self-reflection and discuss scripture's position regarding the issue, as can be seen from many of the comments/articles, careful self reflection in light of Truth is not what stuck in people's minds. Throwing "dating" out the window is.
In pop culture (Christian or otherwise) dramatic statements and overarching conclusions are all the rage. "Dating is bad" is going to sell a lot more copies than "You should look at your attitudes towards the opposite sex in light of God's Truth." I obviously can't say this is the reason the book took such an extreme tack, but it seems plausible. I believe Boundless has hosted Joshua Harris before; it might be worthwhile to get his take on the subject. (or perhaps I should just go listen to the links)
While that isn't really an excuse for a critically thinking person to read the book, go off the deep end and refuse to go out with someone without an offer of marriage, I think the book (and its publishers/promoters) could have done a much better job putting the primary emphasis where it belonged, on taking every thought captive to Christ and doing all for His glory, whether you chose to call it dating or courting.
31. Amir Larijani said the following at 9:58 AM on Jul 14:
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Here are my observations:
(1) The title of the book is misleading. It should be I Kissed "Dating" Goodbye. The book is less an indictment of dating and more of an indictment of the modern dating game.
While reasonable people can make the case for dating, anyone who thinks the modern dating game is a healthy one, is realistically-challenged.
(2) While the principle of pursuing dating with marriage in mind, is a good general rule, let's keep in mind that to make this a dogma that rules all opposite-sex relationships, is Pharisaical grandstanding.
All opposite-sex relationships between singles need not require the pursuit of marriage. There is no such Biblical command, and I'll make no bones about calling someone for imputing such a command where one does not exist.
There is a huge difference between making a recommendation versus making a command. And even as a recommendation, it is not etched in stone, as men and women in the Christian ranks, have all sorts of relationships along the platonic scale.
While it is fair to call Christians to account with respect to how they approach their relationships and communicate their intentions--as men might have marriage in mind whereas the women may not, and vice versa--attempts to resolve matters by painting with a large brush, often result in dogmatic overkill.
A good example of this is the issue of men counseling women.
One school of thought says men must NEVER do this, as it could stoke sexual temptation and lead a counselor to fall into sin.
The other school of thought says men may counsel women, provided that appropriate precautions are taken.
I tend to be in the latter school: while there is no Biblical command forbidding such counseling, there are issues of prudence and discretion that are matters of Biblical common-sense.
This is why many churches have an open-door rule, or a two-person rule on visitations.
This allows for men to exercise freedom, with sufficient accountability, while avoiding dogmatic overkill.
32. Dr. Ransom (E. Stephen Burnett) said the following at 11:23 AM on Jul 14:
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What I think went wrong with I Kissed Dating Goodbye was not Harris’s motivations, or his philosophy of (here is the real one again) avoiding dating when you’re just a kid, and immature, and fooling around and not spiritually ready for commitment.
(That means the incidental-straw-man example of waiting until you have a three-bedroom house and such is invalid; primarily spiritual maturity, as well as some financial maturity, is what is being encouraged.)
Instead, a lot of Harris’s message was unfortunately co-opted by the extreme “courtship” factions of evangelical homeschooling-dom. They’re the kinds of folks who’ve often been ill-informed, often by false teachers and bad books. They who believe that families and especially human fathers (as the families’ Heads in all matters), not just Christian communities in the form of church and friends, are the main “mechanism” for enabling proper Courtship.
This is bad doctrine that leads to equally bad lifestyle choices. I have met these folks and have been myself sorting for the past several years through the “shrapnel” left from bits of this false teaching.
Such folks did not have the Grace-based foundation that Harris and others advocated (and now even more strongly advocates as the pastor of Sovereign Grace Ministries’ flagship church). Instead, their foundation was man-centered and found-based, founded on faulty Bible-reading methods that tried to find precedents for lifestyle choices in Old Testament stories, and emphasized Family Safety from the World and “Federal Vision” (as in, the spiritual ideas and direction of a father being imparted to and fulfilled by his wife and children) rather than God’s will, God’s glory, and the Gospel of true Grace.
Perhaps by not explicitly addressing such factions, Harris incidentally left that door wide open for the legalists to claim him as one of them and his message as one of theirs. However, it is hard to address any possible way un-Biblical sorts can co-opt your ideas.
However, Harris never, in either of his relationship books, advocated anything like father-led “courtship” or the notions put forth by un-Biblical teachers: that is, you primarily get to know a girl through her father. Supposedly this was the way it was done in the Olden Days, that is, the Old Testament. Multiple objections can be raised to such nonsense: Old/New Covenant and Christ fulfilled the Law for starters, but mainly the fact that descriptions of lifestyles in Scripture do not mean we take those as commandments for us today (something J. Budziszewski also pointed out well in his recent column). And nowhere in Scripture is it described that father-led-everything is the “way” to run your family or do courtship anyway!
What original patriocentric-homeschooling types needed (and still need) is not more encouragement to lighten up and go out and date just for fun, but a Grace basis for understanding God and the ways we should best interact with others and the world for His glory.
And I believe Harris, in his updated versions of I Kissed Dating Goodbye and especially Boy Meets Girl (which was written after he came to Covenant Life for pastor training), did that very well.
Yet those who cannot well discern spiritual truths (1 Corinthians 2:14) — or perhaps those with their own agendas or tendency to equate a message with those who twist it — would very likely have his real message fly right over their heads.
My suggestion? Don’t blame the author for the excesses taken by un-Biblical folks who co-opted his works as if they recommended the same method as their own legalistic “courtship.”
And as for those who equate Harris’s works with the exact bad relationship choices Harris discouraged on the opposite side of serial just-for-fun dating — they need to read and write more carefully. Don’t equate your own perception of false dichotomies with those who did their best to offer a perspective on relationships founded on Biblical balance and God’s grace and glory.
33. Bernie said the following at 11:31 AM on Jul 14:
33
As a psychology major, one of the biggest things that Sigmund Freud did was present an idea that was so radical, it caused so many other people to think of their own ideas of psychology and human behavior.
In comparison, what Josh Harris wrote caused a huge uproar among Christians and non-Christians. It was a good thing! It made us be critical thinkers.
I know when I read IKDG 5 years ago, it made so much sense to me. Dating in high school seemed impossible, and it didn't even feel natural or right to do. It looked wrong. So this idea of courting made a lot of sense. The problem I ran into was believing that I absolutely kissed marriage goodbye. I said to myself "No girl would ever go with this", and "If singleness is a gift, why do I feel miserable about it? Is it wrong to WANT to be married?"
The same way Freud fostered other theories, IKDG caused many other good books to be written. Debbie Maken's "Getting Serious About Getting Married: Rethinking the Gift of Singleness" lifted a HUGE burden from my life, and let me know that it was okay to have a longing to be married. Other books like "I gave dating a chance" and "Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?" really helped me get other perspectives, too. Nowadays, Boundless is giving me a very healthy perspective.
In the end, I decided to keep my high standards of only intentionally dating with the purpose of marriage, and being VERY selective and prayerful about who I pursued. I'm courting a young woman now based on whatever I pulled from Biblical courting and dating, and it's been a wonderful process with God's presence just saturating the relationship.
So I'm grateful for IKDG, even though it confused me horribly. (I wish I had a mentor to teach me about what I was learning. Maybe I wouldn't have been so confused.) The neat thing is, that just like Freud, Harris opened the door, and I learned a lot more from the other authors like Debbie Maken and those of Boundless.
34. Tiffany said the following at 12:05 PM on Jul 14:
34
Amir Larijani writes: "All opposite-sex relationships between singles need not require the pursuit of marriage. There is no such Biblical command, and I'll make no bones about calling someone for imputing such a command where one does not exist."
Amen, brother!! I wish more churches would teach and celebrate healthy nonsexual male-female relationships.
35. Jeni said the following at 12:16 PM on Jul 14:
35
Kirsten #7
Maybe the result of IKDG leading to having kissed marrige goodbye isn't evident until attractive, employed, Christian people are in their 30s and still unmarried.
Heidi #10
I did read "Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?" by McCulley. Unfortunately, I personally did not find it helpful. I'm sure there are people (ladies) who were helped and encouraged by it. Thanks for the suggestion.
Steve #17
On the note of ignoring what might be the obvious - it's interesting to note that Joshua Harris wrote the forward for "Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?" (If I remember correctly.)
What is most the most discouraging to me is that I know a lot of single men and women in tehir 30s who say they want to get married.. Despite all the resources: IKDG, "How to Get a Date Worth Keeping",agency, networking, courtship, blind dates, eharmony, chance encounters at the supermarket, thriving singles groups or young professionals groups they are all still ultra-single.
36. KK said the following at 12:50 PM on Jul 14:
36
Why do you have to be in the position of owning a home to be "ready"? My boyfriend and I both pay for our own school, cover all of our own personal/living expenses and are good with our money. When we get married we plan on renting a simple one or two bedroom in our college town while we continue with school. I don't need no three bedroom house with a mortgage lol! :) But I really DO understand the point that is being made about providing.
Besides the obvious spiritual qualities,I think "ready" for men is more about how responsible you are, how hard you are willing to work (and how hard of a worker you have proven yourself to be) and if you can make your life situation work for two people and not just one.
37. Jennifer said the following at 1:22 PM on Jul 14:
37
I have been on both sides of this issue. In HS I was all about IKDG. Once in college I realized that something wasn't working but instead of looking at myself I blamed the author and the book. Since then, I have come full circle (thanks to a dear younger friend who actually reminded me of the real purpose of the book).
I think the issue with the book is that it was written by a human from his perspective. Obviously there is NOTHING wrong with that but it should be read with a sincere, open and prayerful heart. I am learning that whenever an idea about God, His intentions, purposes, etc. are presented by man it is best to ALWAYS ask for wisdom from Him first and prayerfully weigh it against scripture. He will ANSWER & give proper direction! I hope that makes sense! It is quite obvious but I felt I should share since it kept coming to mind as I read through the posts.
38. Tami said the following at 2:03 PM on Jul 14:
38
Josh Harris should collect royalties for all the *other* books on dating and courtship that his book inspired ;)
Prior to his book, there weren't all that many (or at least as many that had reached so far into Christian groups). I don't recall people talking about any specific books when I was in high school; Passion and Purity was the big one when I was in college; I'm sure there were a couple others, but not *nearly* as many as were published after 1997.
39. Kelly said the following at 3:26 PM on Jul 14:
39
I really appreciated reading Joshua Harris' book as a teenager. It really resounded with what I think God was trying to tell me at the time. It encouraged me not to pursue recreational dating. Then when I met my husband in college, we didn't become romantically involved until we had decided to plan to pursue marriage, which I think freed us from a lot of unnecessary heartbreak and distraction. And it had the sweet side effect of us both getting to share our first kiss with our future mate!
40. New Bride said the following at 3:28 PM on Jul 14:
40
In response to those saying a house and all is necessary… I think it’s less about having a house, and providing for a wife and 4 kids, which are good things, but not necessary things, because those come with time and can be worked through to gain together. In my own “dating” life and now recent marriage…I’ve learned and do think it should be more about whether or not you’re ready to care about someone else more then yourself. Willing to give 100% and sacrifice for that person, to lay your life down…I think that is the “ready” that is necessary to realize if your ready to date more then material possessions…its character.
Each relationship isn’t cookie cutter, the same, that’s where God and His timing and our trusting come in. our own demands and thoughts of how it should be, or when, or even our ideal…we should surrender, live life to His calling, and the rest well…is up to God.
41. Kellie said the following at 3:47 PM on Jul 14:
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Re #3:
While I think it is good for a guy (and a girl) to have a job and at least financial independence from parents before considering marriage, I don't see how more should become a requirement.
For those who would disagree, some people are never going to earn enough to own a home or perhaps even enough to support one adult staying home full-time to be with children. Should they be discouraged from marrying?
42. BDB said the following at 5:25 PM on Jul 14:
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#32 Dr. Ransom wrote:
>>That means the incidental-straw-man example of waiting until you have a three-bedroom house and such is invalid<<
It's not a straw man at all. That's an example pulled straight from real people's decision-making. Both men and women do this, by the way, but for different reasons.
For men who look at what it takes to support a family on one income (allowing mom to be home with the kids), outside of the professions (engineering, accounting, law) this is quite difficult to do in an entry-level job.
For women, often they see others who are divorced with young children, struggling mightily. So, their reasoning is to first get to a place where they are confident that they can make it on their own if necessary.
Let's see...the last time I heard a single woman explaining her method of meeting a quality person based (measured by his money) was...Sunday at Church.
On reflection, it's probably not a good idea to survey 20-somethings on whether a house is necessary. They may think, "That's a great idea!", add it to their "list," and adopt that idea as policy.
The thing is, the men who are by far the most committed to their marriages are those who point to difficult times in their lives and how their wife supported them. This includes encouragement during periods of unemployment.
How many single women do you know who, as part of their "plan" to get married, go around and encourage unemployed men? I didn't say date unemployed men, encourage them in practical ways, point out their strengths, etc.?
I only know one.
But during a period of extended unemployment, I met several divorced women who complained bitterly about how their ex was an idiot who couldn't get a job - and were still complaining YEARS after their divorce. (Then they'd ask me what I did. I of course told them I'd been unemployed for more than a year - just to get them to leave me alone.)
So, for those women who wish to be married and are not, the massive economic downturn presents you with an opportunity. First, study your local area an figure out which industries, if any, are hiring. Second, find those unemployed men who are spiritually mature and encourage them. You may very well find that the encouragement helps them think in new directions, identify skills they have they forgot about, decide to be a little more flexible in their career search and get a new job.
And don't be surprised if they remember you afterwards.
43. brx said the following at 5:53 PM on Jul 14:
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Re: Steve240 [#26];
Unfortunately Josh Harris isn't widely sharing these problems...
Maybe he hasn't broadcast it on NBC prime-time, but I'd say Harris has been juggling responsibilities pretty well and has done a lot to make truth freely available. He did give those message live, in front of several thousand people, knowing they would go and tell others, and unlike many churches, CovLife makes their messages freely downloadable (vs churches that only stream and charge for copies).
Also, the corrective information is kind of old-hat by now; that was 2005 and it's now 2009! Most people who want to know are inquisitive enough to find out. If they're not; well, that in itself is probably the larger barrier to healthy relationships. :>
I know I and others have also been doing our part - by burning and distributing freely at our expense, many copies of the Harris and CovLife Relationships messages (yes, CovLife ok'd that).
I've also humbly directed more than a few pastors with desires for a singles ministry or an ailing singles group, to talk with and gather wisdom from the singles ministry pastors at CovLife. Funny, even after giving them phone numbes and email addr, exceedingly few ever actually do contact anyone there. I know church leaders are busy, but I think there's pride involved too.
Grace, peace & humble passing on of Truth
44. Charles said the following at 6:09 PM on Jul 14:
44
Boundless should publish guidelines for pastors and church leaders about how to relate to singles. One idea: If a single is going to be reproved for doing something -- say, dating in some "unbiblical" fashion or what not, allow that person to receive their reproof in front of a witness from the local body rather than someone on the leadership team. This could act as a check against unsound meddling that is neither wise nor bibical.
45. David Petersen said the following at 7:51 PM on Jul 14:
45
#32-Dr. Ransom:
That was a well written post on how the patriarchal groups have utilized Harris for their own agendas while disavowing his grace based theology.
I think some of the opposition to his work comes, in part, from the actions of this group versus Harris's own theology/writings. In fact, I've become concerned that these groups threaten to redefine courtship, homeschooling and other such terms to the general public.
While Harris could have defined his terms better, he arguably accomplished one primary objective- he got teens/singles to think twice about the prevailing views of dating. And that, I would argue, was needed.
46. Maggie said the following at 8:33 PM on Jul 14:
46
Wow, it doesn't happen that often, but I completely agree with Farmer Tom. :-)
I confess I have never read IKDG (I became a Christian in my twenties so it wasn't really applicable by the time I heard of it), but I enjoyed Harris's follow up, Boy Meets Girl. I think it explains a lot about his ideas on courtship and leaves little room for the view that he advocates any sort of shunning of the opposite sex.
The problem with arguments like that of BDB (# 3) is that they are based on a worldly view of being ready for marriage rather than a Christian one, although sadly one that is very prevalent in and out of the church. Yes, a couple ready for marriage should be able to support themselves, but since when does a 3-room home and a minivan signal readiness?? Many people in the Bible had a lot less than that starting out, and I'm sure many of our parents, not to mention grandparents, started their families with less. I think financial readiness for marriage is less about how many assets you've accumulate and more about maturity and being prepared to sacrifice and save.
47. Nicole said the following at 10:38 PM on Jul 14:
47
I remember reading that book when I was all of about 14 and how drastically it has since changed my life (well really it is God working through the book!!) I knew then that I did not like the route many of my friends were taking and reading Harris' book made me understand that dating and relationships were not to be taken lightly. It was then that I decided that I would not date until after high school and i would not date until God was my everything and I was content with Him. (theoretically speaking as we are sinners prone to leave the God we love)I remember well being laughed at for such an absurd thought. But i was intent on my mission: to only date when and with the possibility of marriage.
I am now almost 22 and I have yet to date. And honestly I am completely happy and content with that. God has given me some amazing opportunities to pursue in the last 4 years and I have loved every minute of it. Now I am moving to California from Ohio to finish my education, to pursue God, and to follow HIS plan not mine. Life is a journey and I am excited to see where God will take it. And yes I will hope that someday somewhere God will bring the right person into my life for forever!!
But no matter what anyone says I will stand behind Josh Harris' book and the revolution that my generation needed.
God has called us all to lay aside our own wants, desires, and needs and follow after Him and make Him be our all!!!!
48. Philip said the following at 11:49 PM on Jul 14:
48
The content of teaching on courtship from Harris and those who follow him is good. Those who get the wrong idea do have some responsibility for their mistake. Having said that I think the way the ideas have been and to a lesser extent till are communicated could be done better so that fewer people get the wrong idea.
If the emphasis were on a handful of principles, like perhaps 'intentionality, complementarity, community, purity' (like with Rick Holland but ideally fewer than on his list) then I reckon less people would take on board an unhelpful distortion.
49. Daisy said the following at 7:10 AM on Jul 15:
49
I've read I kissed dating Goodbye probably when I was in Senior High School.
Before I read it, I rejected some guys who are pursuing me. Why? Because for me that's just foolish or silly.
Yes, you're probably attracted to someone, but that attraction you feel could be just an infatuation. In high school, at the age of maybe from 11 to 15, I think playing around is alarmingly present.
I refuse to have a boyfriend during those times because of that reason. And I know to myself that it would be unfair to the guy courting me if I will pursue a relationship with based only on my emotions. I do believe that our emotions cannot be trusted.
After I read it, I knew I was right in rejecting those guys. By doing so, I have protected not only myself but also those guys from a heartache.
Until now I'm 21, I still don't date. But I don't believe it would lead me to kissing marriage goodbye.
They're right, Josh Harris message is: don't pursue a romantic relationship if you're not really ready for commitment. But this doesn't mean that you will wait until you own a house or have a large amount of money in your bank account. Readiness means being responsible and unselfish - as a spouse, a parent, a child of God. Many people own a house and now wealthy but are they responsible? Are they willing to sacrifice their own happiness for the happiness of the other person?
50. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:52 AM on Jul 15:
50
A lot of good exchanges. Trying not to rehash a lot of good points already brought up, but I wanted to just mention a few things:
1. Think for yourself and think critically
Remember that this book was just one author's PERSONAL experience, insight, and opinions on the matter. It isn't the Bible, and one should always be on guard whenever one juxtaposes Bible verses next to any "command" which isn't explicitly written in there. Remember there have been books not just on "Biblical dating" (a term I believe is grossly misleading and should not be used) but on "Biblical eating", "Biblical business practices", etc.
People have used the Bible to justify slavery, racism, and mass-murder. I'm not saying that Harris' motives were wrong or even that some of ideas were incorrect, but that as others have stated it's very easy for a set of guidelines to evolve into unnecessary and perhaps harmful dogma.
For example I could easily take the one Proverb (which by the way
aren't the same as commands) which says, "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender" and completely turn it into a legalistic lifestyle. From that verse we could wrongfully infer that being just being rich is wrong and equates to oppression. Another is that ALL forms of debt are bad and should be avoided. Student loans, mortgages, credit cards, business loans, heck even bond funds. The principle here is to point out that those with money tend to wield a lot more power than those who don't (which is true) and that putting oneself in debt is making yourself vulnerable.
2. Don't get too wrapped up in what the definition of "dating" means, but don't be afraid to use the term either
A key area of contention among certain Believers seems to result from the meaning of the word "date". When someone says, "I kissed dating goodbye" what does he/she really mean? Does it mean, "I can't engage in small talk with the opposite sex AT ALL", or does it mean, "I can't spend time one on one", or perhaps, "We can spend time together, but only in a group setting"?
I think a lot of young people (esp Christians it seems) avoid the term "dating" because it implies certain expectations or people are afraid of what others may think/say if they hear the term. For example, it's more innocuous to say, "Janet and I are going to go hang out at the bookstore for awhile" than "Janet and I are going on a date at the bookstore".
That's why I agree with others who posted that rather than simply allow/forbid "dating" that in regards to parents/teenagers still living in the home to talk about what relationships/behaviors are acceptable and allowed. Going to dinner with a guy/girl may be just fine, but going over to their house alone may not be.
So rather than just simply say to people, "I don't date" perhaps explain what you mean if you think it will be ambiguous to your listeners.
And if you believe you are dating, don't be afraid to call it what it
is. To say, "We're just 'hanging out'" or "We're just friends" when you are acting by what most of society would call a date (e.g.
spending time together alone) is simply being afraid of a term where no fear should be warranted.
3. ALL relationships, especially of the guy/girl nature involve risk
I think what some books/teaching try to do is imply that a certain methodology of getting married is superior because it will "save you from heartache". That is definitely not true. Dating can get your heart broken. Courtship can get your heart broken. Marriage can get your heart broken. Any meaningful romance requires one to put some or all of your heart out there and is completely vulnerable.
Yes, one should not give out their heart unwisely or flippantly. And that's why the head should also be involved in the process as well. But most would agree that it is worth it to pursue love even with those risks.
4. A system is successful only if people agree to adopt it
I have nothing against the courtship or the dating model. I think both have pluses and minuses. And we've seen that both can lead to stable, successful marriages.
From the sounds of the criticism of those who tried Harris' suggestions or interpretation of his ideas tells me that they were frustrated because this system didn't work for them. Therein lies the danger of adhering to an unnecessary doctrine: Not being aware of what your possible to-be spouses are thinking. And shame on those who advertise either explicitly or not something to the effect of, "This the 'Biblical way to do it'. If you do it right, God will bring you a spouse." The fact is, the majority of Christians aren't comfortable with the courtship model and that's OK. But if you are one who really wants to try it, then one needs to find others who also share that philosophy. And that won't come easy.
This idea of having situational awareness also extends into being outwardly attractive. Mannerisms, attitude, appearance--they all have a place. Granted, these externals can be taken too far and the heart ignored, but one ought not to be ashamed of improving the external if it isn't at the expense of the internal.
In summary, despite what some may say, the Bible really doesn't give clear cut guidance about how to go about finding a spouse. All the examples in the Bible were reflective of their culture. Does that mean I approve of "recreational dating" without any intention to marry? No, but I do not believe that marriage has to be the primary thing on one's mind when going out on a first date. However, I do believe that marriage can't be entirely excluded either; meaning that if you do date, it must be someone who could possibly be a spouse. That implies among other things that you should only date Believers (I agree that most who missionary date are prone to delusion and overlooking red flags). And of course it includes the obvious as not engaging in sexual immorality.
I appreciate that Harris has recognized that his writings should not be taken too literally and has taken steps to address them. I hope that those who did not find his methods fruitful will be able to look ahead rather than dwell on the past.
51. BDB said the following at 11:17 AM on Jul 15:
51
Maggie (#46) wrote:
>>The problem with arguments like that of BDB (# 3) is that they are based on a worldly view of being ready for marriage rather than a Christian one, although sadly one that is very prevalent in and out of the church.<<
To clarify, I'm not taking a position of advocacy. I'm making an observation that this is the way people actually think.
Specifically, I've known women who appear to quite unreceptive to men approaching them, but I hear from their parents or them directly how they're focused on buying a house first. This is probably more prevalent among those who have some sort of bad relationship experience and decide to pull back socially and yet still are responsible in building their financial life.
The Biblical principle is that you can't serve both God and Money. Most of the people I know in missions had to give up their desire to serve money. But that is a small group compared to those who seem to attach financial security to a person rather than to God.
That said, most of the marrige examples in the Bible involve families that are already wealthy. Think of Isaac, Boaz, the various Kings. You never read about the marriage of a couple of slaves, do you? So there doesn't seem to be much Biblical discussion of marriage in terms of financial security.
If you think about it, it really is not Biblically justified to look to marry someone who is financially "secure;" if you are both serving God to the fullest, God will provide financially. If someone is serving money, they will have money, but they may not have God.
52. Jo said the following at 2:00 PM on Jul 15:
52
Mike Theemling #50:
Very well said. Brilliant points.
53. brx said the following at 3:42 PM on Jul 15:
53
Re: Mike Theemling [#50];
Well said.
Grace, peace & adventure on The Way!
54. Nick said the following at 5:04 PM on Jul 15:
54
Amen Ted. A humble reading of Josh's book with a heart bent towards seeking what pleases the Lord will uncover many solid biblical principles for glorifying God in relationships.
His chapters on communication, fellowship, and lust in BMG are outstanding.
55. Phoebe said the following at 10:49 PM on Jul 15:
55
Thank you, Mike Theemling! Your points are worthy of having a Boundlessline.org post of their own. Thank you for bringing gracious right thinking to this topic.
56. ccinnova said the following at 10:11 AM on Jul 17:
56
Put yourself in the shoes of a single Christian man somewhere between his late 20’s and early 50’s, someone who would have been between 16 and 40 when "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" was published.
First, he is taught that men should take the initiative in pursuing romantic relationships with women. So far, so good.
Then "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" comes along. That single man hears he shouldn’t date. Furthermore, he hears that some who date incur the wrath of fathers or church elders as the book’s principles become doctrine in some churches. Unsure what to do, he stops pursuing single women.
Then Dr. Albert Mohler’s address to the 2004 New Attitude conference is broadcast on a Christian radio program. Suddenly, that single man faces sharp criticism for not pursuing single women despite the messages he’d heard over the previous seven years.
Is it any wonder many single Christian men, confused by these mixed messages and irritated by the evangelical church’s generally poor treatment of single adults, are frustrated and angry, with some leaving church altogether?
Each man - and woman – bears responsibility for one’s own relational mistakes. However, I think it’s time for Joshua Harris and those who turned his principles into legalistic doctrinal systems to take responsibility for their part in sowing seeds which have yielded bitter fruit.
57. Kate Lewanowicz said the following at 11:53 PM on Jul 19:
57
I think it's important for us all to remember God's sovereignty over our relationships. If God wants you to get married, and get married to a certain person, then nothing you do or don't do (influenced by a book or not) is going to change His plans.
So you dated when you were young, had a terrific experience, and are now married. Excellent. But that is because God brought you together. Not because you did or didn't read or take seriously I Kissed Dating Goodbye.
So you're in your late 20's and still single. You now feel like you maybe have been a little too relationally cautious. But if God really wanted you to be married right now, you would be. God isn't sitting in Heaven thinking, "If only they hadn't taken that book so literally. They completely missed my plan for them! Looks like its time for Plan B."
Again, lets be careful not to blame the relational patterns of our church generation, or our own relational history on a book. God's will for His children and their relationships can never be thwarted. I hope that the variety of testimonies of people who can say "We did it this way, and God has blessed us!" and "We did it that way, and God has blessed us!" is a testament to God's abundant favor in our lives no matter how our relationships look.
58. Jerusha said the following at 11:33 AM on Dec 5:
58
If people are really outgoing and have a knack for getting to know others of the opposite gender and by informal conversation divining whether this is the person to suggest courtship/marriage to...
But for the majority of the population, I think that dating is simply an easier way to try to get to know someone. And it might take a couple dates or at least a couple months of professed interest in the other person for the couple to realize whether they are actually getting along or not.
59. singlextianman said the following at 5:50 PM on Jul 18:
59
And yet Pastor Harris acknowledges just a few weeks ago that the fellowship he pastors has sinned against some singles in respect to dating and courtship because of not following a rigid models put to them. Maybe some of those critics were actually speaking the truth.