I Kissed Dating Goodbye 12 Years Later
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 07/13/2009 at 2:09 PM
A few weeks ago, I read an interesting article in Relevant Magazine called, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Where Did it Go?" As the title suggests, the article criticized the revolution brought about 12 years ago by Joshua Harris' book I Kissed Dating Goodbye.
Josh's book came out when I was in high school and was very influential in my decision not to date during those years. The principles of holiness and godly relationships that Harris put forth were sound, and I believe its wisdom saved me heartache and kept me focused in my walk with the Lord.
Harris' suggestion that young people not date exclusively unless marriage was in the picture -- and then with proper accountability -- took my Bible college campus by storm. I noticed two opposite reactions to Harris' philosophy: 1. Men who pursued women with the intent for marriage (which ended in short, intentional courtships followed by marriages -- 42 my junior year!); 2. A lack of social interaction between men and women. After all, if you didn't have your eye on someone who you could see being your future spouse, social interaction of the dating variety was discouraged.
My general sense at the time was that men were confused by Harris' advice. They wondered how to bridge the gap between "just friends" and getting engaged. I even had a friend of mine (who was interested in pursuing me) ask this very question. "If we can't date, what's the next step?" In the ambiguity caused by not knowing what to do, some did nothing. In his article, Tim Holland writes:
Looking back on my decision not to date until I was “ready for marriage,” it is evident that this course has led me to become a bit of a cripple when it comes to approaching women. I have invested hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars in coffee shops around Seattle, thinking that I might strike up a conversation with a cute girl one day, perhaps land a date and discover that we have both chosen the same names for our children. Right ...
I just wish I had more to show for the past 10 years of my failed romantic life than a few quick flings, an extensive knowledge of the Star Trek universe and the deep brokenness that weighs heavily upon my heart. While putting the brakes on dating was good wisdom for some of my more sexed-up peers, I could really have used a good kick in the pants to throw me into gear.
What do you think? Is Holland's criticism fair? Is the philosophy to avoid the world's idea of dating a deterrent to men pursuing women? One guy I asked about this thought Holland's argument was a "cop-out." Anecdotally, many of the guys I know who at one time were unsure about Harris' advice, figured out how to proceed and are now happily married.
What do you think of Harris' I Kissed Dating Goodbye 12 years later? How has it impacted you?
1. Kellie said the following at 2:48 PM on Jul 13:
I think the book is much more suited towards high school students than 20-somethings wanting to get married. Harris' book on courtship is much better.
I understand Holland's position (I could have been the female version several years ago), and it's important to remember that with any Christian relationship book/article, it is simply another person's advice.
2. Holly said the following at 2:55 PM on Jul 13:
Anecdotally....let's see, I can recall eight girls from youth group who adopted the Harris philosophy. One married young after short courtship, happily to this day. Three married young after short courtships, and were divorced within seven years. One I have lost track of. One just got married, at age 31. Two have never married.
3. IMO said the following at 3:00 PM on Jul 13:
A friend lend me the book when I first became a Christian...
It was a refreshing book to read at that time...
4. MallieMarie said the following at 3:20 PM on Jul 13:
I agree with Kellie that Harris' argument was pointed towards teenagers and pre-teens who rush into romance too early, risking sexual temptation and heartbreak. However, once marriage is a possibility, I think Harris would agree with Dr. Mohler's advice to "get married young man", and abandon adolescence. On the 9Marks website, there's a great audio discussion with Mark Dever, Dr. Mohler, and Josh Harris on romance and dating, and I think they touch on this topic as well.
5. Kirsty said the following at 3:20 PM on Jul 13:
I remember studying the book at youth group about 11 years ago. Being at a young age, it was very influential in the way that I viewed / view the purpose of dating / courtship to this day. I see it as being something not to be entered into without purpose, or intention. I'm thankful that I was introduced to it at as a young teen.
6. Ted Slater said the following at 3:24 PM on Jul 13:
Holly (#2) -- can you define "the Harris philosophy"? Seriously, if you could describe it in a few sentences, that'd be awesome. Thanks!
7. Loris said the following at 3:26 PM on Jul 13:
I think a "don't date in high school" attitude is more useful. In college, I knew of plenty of guys who avoided the school dances and dinners because they were afraid their dates would be buying bridal magazines the next week. Well, maybe not, but it sure seemed that way. Lacking any explanation or a better scapegoat, I blamed the datelessness of myself and my even-prettier friends on Harris' philosophy.
8. Megan said the following at 3:29 PM on Jul 13:
Often, I felt split between my spiritual life at church and my social life at school. I was popular in high school, but I felt like one of the weird kids because all I heard in youth group was how I failed to match “the standard” of righteous living. My level of sacrifice was simply not enough.
So, I did what any other self-righteous kid my age would have done. I vowed never to drink alcohol—at 15 years old, mind you—started fasting and praying one day a week, and posted a sign on top of my family’s television that read: “Would Jesus Be Watching This?” I threw my life onto an altar of human holiness and hid my insecurity behind a mask of devotion. Much to my chagrin, I got nothing in return for this sacrifice except the gift of being a dating-retarded twentysomething!
That was definitely my favorite excerpt from the article I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Where Did It Go?
I think parents should be the ones discerning (within reason) if their highschool children should date. I think it's easy to say, "I'm sacrificing this in the name of Christ," but it's hard to follow through with it. This is somewhat different; does God REALLY call on us to not date? This may really be a situational issue and not a standard for all to follow. Obviously, God tells us to run from temptation and dating can bring temptation ... but that's just it, it can. That doesn't necessarily mean that it will.
The idea of not dating does seem a little self-righteous to me, and encouraged this author at the age of 15 to become so sensitive that he didn't move to action. I believe that some of the consequence of being a dating retarded twentysomething could be a result of his own personality, but having very little supervised dating scenarios probably hindered him the most.
As a baby christian, I latched onto ideas like these.
9. NeedACatchyName said the following at 3:30 PM on Jul 13:
I don't think it's entirely fair to point the finger at guys and say that they were the ones paralyzed by IKDG. Anecdotally*, I know plenty of girls who were paralyzed with doubt after reading this and similar books and refused/avoided plenty of invitations from well-meaning Christian guys because of not knowing what to do. I think it would be better to say that the book caused a lot of doubt in the Christian community about dating, courtship, and related topics for both males and females. Now, whether or not this doubt was a good thing in that it caused people to ask honest questions about their approach to male/female relationships and pause to learn how to pursue those in a more Godly way, or a bad thing in that it paralyzed those relationships (or a combination of both) is up for debate, but I think it's definitely safe to say that it caused some paralysis in relationships.
I touched on this a little in the kissing discussion a few days ago, but I think the biggest negative caused by IKDG and other assorted Christian dating/courtship books is that they all seemed to specify a slightly different set of guidelines for relationships, and there was a lot of confusion as to which set of "rules" you were supposed to use. So you'd have situations where a guy who practiced "Biblical dating" would meet a girl who practiced "courtship," and even though they were otherwise suitable for one another they never could quite agree on how to approach a relationship and thus one never happened, or ended shortly after starting.
One friend of mine advocated having the elders of a church decide on a single set of dating/courting/whatever standards and rules that their single members would be expected to follow (with disobedience being potential grounds for church discipline) to eliminate some of the ambiguity. While I personally think that's a bit of an extreme way to deal with the problem, I will be the first to say that there needs to be some solution to reconcile some of the differences in all of the various Christian dating/courting methodologies that have been developed over the past few years. At the very least, people need to be a lot more gracious when others disagree with their dating methodology, and realize that just because someone disagrees with them on issues such as kissing vs. not kissing, "dating" vs. "courting," ideal length of relationship until engagement, whether you ask the daughter out directly or go through her father, etc. doesn't (necessarily) make them an evil person who should be disqualified from ever having a relationship with someone who has differing opinions.
* As always, data is not the plural of anecdote, YMMV, etc.
10. Jeremiah said the following at 3:34 PM on Jul 13:
Suzanne,
Thanks for the blog. I think this is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective: Up until a few years ago, I had never heard of Joshua Harris. I attended a very large public university, and, other than a few Christian friends, I guess I had much more exposure to the “secular world” than what was popular in Christian circles. After college, I rediscovered my love of Christ and started attending church regularly again. I started dating a very nice Christian woman that I had met doing mission work. Things were going well for about four dates, and I assumed that we were on the normal course for “dating” (only with much more intentionality to remain pure than my previous relationships). After dinner on the 4th date, I decided to try to go in for the quick good night kiss. It seemed reasonable at the time to see if she was also interested in me the same way I liked her… (ie., more than just friends). She pulled away almost immediately. The next day, she called me to explain. It wasn’t that she wasn’t attracted; it was just that she didn’t believe in “dating” any more. She gave me a copy of one of Joshua Harris’ books and said, “this is what I want” and “we can’t go out again till you read this.” I was floored. It was not really anything about what Harris had to say but more about feeling like the rules had changed on me without anyone explaining it or even checking with me to see if I was on board. It almost felt like I was on the outside of some cruel inside joke that the “Christian” kids “got” and I had just missed. Here I thought I had a pretty good understanding of how male and female interactions we supposed to go; then all o a sudden someone decide to change it all.
I read the book and honestly liked some of it and disliked parts as well. This is not to say that Harris has it all wrong (or all right). I personally think that many of his ideas are just one person’s interpretations of scripture. Like other Christian books I think that lots of people would be much better off reading their bible than reading Joshua Harris. However, If you are a Harris supporter, please communicate this to the men in your life that might be interested. Seriously, some Christian guys like myself just don’t know up front.
Also, if you are one of the people that complain that “Christian men don’t take the initiative”, please stop and ask yourself if we might be more confused than anything else. I certainly am.
11. BDB said the following at 3:43 PM on Jul 13:
It probably works fine when everyone is familiar with the theory.
But the theory exists in a context that is very different.
Before the book came out, I met several non-Christian women who said they "didn't date anymore." They did, however, invite me to dinner, movies, plays, etc. But it wasn't "dating."
In retrospect, I think they made the individual decision that they didn't want to be pressured into sex, so by telling men they "didn't date," it would push away those men who only wanted to date someone for sex. It also solves the problem of how Christians should date because if it's not "dating," the appropriate boundary is "hands off and clothes on" anyway.
This approach is good for avoiding falling into sin, good for being social, not so good as an approach to marriage.
It also becomes a problem for the Christian women who decide that it's not their role to take initiative. Men who aren't familiar with the whole initiative theory thing will find themselves receiving lots of invitations from non-Christian women and being confused about why the Christian women aren't similarly interested.
Frankly, those who are operating under the world's idea (date a for lots of years first) are probably going to be freaked out by someone who is being intentional from the beginning. Conversely, those women who have decided in their heart that they won't date anyone unless it is considered to be an approach to marriage really ought to tell people that's where they stand.
Either way, people are better off to pray about what they OUGHT to be looking for. God is fully capable of bringing to their attention they ways they need to change their perceptions. That's probably the best way to make the "rules" less of a barrier. My guess is that people who have a firm idea of what their calling is probably will chuck some of their rules if they run into someone with the same calling just to talk to them a little more.
12. Kelsey said the following at 3:53 PM on Jul 13:
I just bought the book at a Rebelution tour put on by Joshua Harris's brothers, Alex and Brett Harris. I have started reading it and I am doing some serious thinking. I am only 15 years old, but, according to the culture, I should be dating by now. This book has taught me to enjoy my single years, and that I can still like boys, but that God is my first priority. Also, why would I want to put myself in the position to be emotionally hurt?
13. Josie said the following at 3:56 PM on Jul 13:
I came across Harris' book IKDG while I was in junior high (over a decade ago) and it definitely shaped my outlook on dating. The book helped me understand, early on, that the purpose of dating and romance should be a God-glorifying relationship that leads to marriage (rather than dating just for kicks). Now as a 20-something single woman, my experience has been that guys are afraid to pursue relationships in fear of looking less pious, leaving women to wonder what's going on (i.e. given a group of single Christian men and women at a church). I think Harris was aware of this sort of overreaction when he decided to write "Boy Meets Girl."
14. Lynn said the following at 3:57 PM on Jul 13:
When I read Harris' book about 9 years ago, I struggled with how to implement the principles in it -- and so did the men I "dated" (when guys approached me romantically, I would give them the book to read).
Nonetheless, I do believe the principles in the book are sound though some may have been confused by it. I seriously doubt that the book itself could be the sole/primary cause of anyone's difficulty interacting with members of the opposite sex.
Despite some difficulty in translating the book's principles to specific actions, I still think that dating (roughly defined as repeated, one-on-one, interaction between members of the opposite sex with romantic intentions) is best reserved for people who are considering each other as marriage partners.
I mean, is there any evidence that traditional "dating" is the most effective route to successful marriages? I think if we look at the state of society today, we see evidence to the contrary. So, from that standpoint, Harris was spot on.
15. Cat said the following at 4:26 PM on Jul 13:
@Kelsey:
Quite honestly, as a twenty-something woman I would like to tell you that emotional hurt is just a part of life. Sometimes everything goes wrong and you're left to pick the pieces up. I was engaged at the beginning of the year to an amazing, Godly man. He left me. We did everything right and it still didn't work. It's just a sad fact of life that we are flawed humans. Sometimes you play the best cards you got and it all still goes wrong.
16. Holly said the following at 4:38 PM on Jul 13:
Ted: I haven't read the book since shortly after it came out, so I may be a little rusty, but I used the term to mean "What those young women did after reading Harris's book." They decided not to date casually at all, meaning that unless they found that the young man was a suitable candidate for marriage from day one (which likely meant different things to each of them, but to all of them meant, at minimum, that he must be spiritually and economically secure) he was not a candidate for dating at all, period. They were scrupulous about avoiding potential situations that might lead to the sorts of scenarios that frequently end in dating relationships if the young man in question did not meet these criteria. (One declined a ministry position that would have had her working with a young man to co-lead a study group because he was enrolled in technical college and not headed for an economic future that would have permitted her to be a stay at home mom.) All skipped high school dances, proms, etc., as clearly no high school boy is ready for marriage. Hope that clarifies!
17. Heather said the following at 5:07 PM on Jul 13:
I think the intent of this book is right on, but the application by many was skewed. When I read it in high school, the courtship described here was exactly how I would describe dating-- spending time with someone to decide whether or not you want to pursue marriage. (My father's permission to date being given with permission to leave the house on a date.) Common sense dictates that you spend most (not all, but most) of your time with family and friends and do this when there's potential for marriage in the foreseeable future.
Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people took this as tremendous pressure. It felt as though "being intentional" meant deciding on marriage after only a few dates, and all of a sudden, you couldn't just go on a date simply to get to know someone. The interaction between guys and gals dropped drastically and consequently, any interaction became much more serious-- unnecessarily so in my opinion.
I agree that you shouldn't date for the sake of dating, but spending time with someone is how you get to know them. You can't make a decision on marriage before ever approaching a girl or her father. I don't think that's what Harris advises, but that's how I felt many applied it.
18. brx said the following at 5:41 PM on Jul 13:
I Kissed Dating Goodbye
read it 8~9 years ago after several people bugged me to. I had resisted for a while because the book seemed pop-trendy in Christian circles and frankly, I thought the title was turn-off. Finally, one of the girls I'd had an interest in in our singles group said "you'd probably like it - Harris agrees with your ideas."
25% of the way through, I almost tossed it because I thought the writing quality was immature (granted, Harris was only ~18 when he wrote it) and I was just not connecting with him at all. But if I didn't finish it, I wouldn't be able to fully answer those who were bugging me. Muddling through, I actually found the last quarter VERY encouraging personally.
I'd been growing in my conclusions about our singles Bible study group being plagued by some common dysfunctions. I found myself feeling very alone in expressing concerns and in suggesting corrective measures. Knowing that at least one other Christian guy, Harris, had some similar thinking helped soften the rejection I felt.
Boy Meets Girl
Later, I read his second book and though Harris' writing style improved only a bit (anecdotes are totally predictable and singularly didactic) I received encouragement in the challenge of being intentional and formally communicative about my relationship intentions toward women friends whom I'd come to desire to be 'more than just friends'.
Anecdote of my own: the first time I approached a girl's father about purposefully dating his daughter, he said he much appreciated my asking and that I seemed like a great guy; his daughter however, freaked out and would barely speak to me anymore. Just because you're honestly prayerful and sense God giving you the clear 'go-ahead', it doesn't mean everything is going to work out smoothly. God might be using it to grow you in a way that you weren't previously considering.
I'd recommend the books to thoughtful high-school and college students. To older adults, I'd add the disclaimer to divorce the quality of Harris' ideas from the quality of the writing. :> [in contrast, Harris is a VERY talented speaker]
Grace, peace & adventure in the awkward on The Way!
19. Matt said the following at 5:44 PM on Jul 13:
Like Post #13 said, I think "Boy Meets Girl" his follow up book about his "courtship" takes a much more balanced approach towards the subject.
My impression is that "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" was most theoretical where was "Boy Meets Girl" was actually based in reality.
Here is some extra explanation from him.
http://www.joshharris.com/2007/11/dvd_messages_old_and_new_1.php
20. Whirly Girly said the following at 5:47 PM on Jul 13:
I remember hearing Josh Harris speak, while we were both still teenagers, about his upcoming book IKDG. I embraced the theory and ideas completely - staying focused in school and remaining invisible to anyone of the opposite sex, or so it seemed.
When I met an amazing young man a few years later in college who was also familiar with IKDG, we started a beautiful and intentional friendship. We spent lots of time together in group activities and with my family. Through group discussions, about IKDG and relationships in general, this young man knew to talk to my dad before talking to me. This is what I wanted and was a great protection for me as I was still living at home.
With my Dad guiding him and giving him advice, he intentionally pursued and won my heart over the coming months.
We used IKDG as a rough framework and guide line for own relationship. It gave us a starting place, an idea around which we built the structure of what fit for us.
We recently celebrated our 6th wedding anniversary and all that God has blessed us in our life together.
21. brx said the following at 5:50 PM on Jul 13:
Harris did get a lot of feedback over the years after I Kissed Dating Goodbye and Boy Meets Girl. He did a great job of clarifying and correcting in two sermons before the whole church (married and single people) in November of 2005. I think the message titles were something like:
Courtship-Schmourtship and
Courtship Is A Community Project
I highly recommend downloading them from the message archive at http://www.covlife.org/
He points out that YES, it IS ok for men and women to be friends. :)
Grace, peace & adventure in the awkward on The Way!
22. em said the following at 6:07 PM on Jul 13:
Having gone to the church Harris now pastors, I can confirm the past lack of healthy social interaction between men and women - there and I'm talking college age, not high school.
However, things seem to be going better on a social level at that church - thanks to what appears to have been very intentional intervention on the part of the pastors there a few years ago. My church is a sister church and it is certainly going better there, if the number of marriages are any indication.
Like a lot of you, I read IKDG in high school. But I can't really blame Harris for negative results among my peers and me. Nor can I ignore the real positives that did happen in challenging a larger segment of believers to re-examine their relational assumptions. There were plenty of other authors piling on. There was plenty of legalism to go around - not just from the "experts" but even more from those of us who listened to them.
Now that we are adults, many of us did need to grow out of some of the awkwardness and fear of the opposite sex / fear of making a mistake about marriage. Harris's second book was much better and showed the maturity that came with his additional years and life experience (including going on dates prior to marrying Shannon).
All that said, I still agree with Harris about casual dating. I don't intend to date JUST for fun - that's what friendship is for. I have gone on a few first dates that never resulted in a 2nd - but that is because once I was sure that the person was not a potential partner, I had no interest in stringing either of us along. I'm now in a one-month old intentional relationship. We are dating, but with the goal of discovering whether God has marriage to each other in our future. Also consistent with courtship principles, we are involving others in our relationship - seeking counsel from people we respect. We don't all have "parental approval" on the relationship application, as Josh Harris found out in his relationship w/ Shannon, but we can still seek wise counsel.
I don't feel damaged by IKDG and I'm certainly not bitter @ Harris. Perhaps he could have been a little more humble in IKDG, given his youth - or at least in retrospect as he isn't so young anymore. But, water under the bridge and God is still in control - in spite of ALL of our sins.
23. Mike said the following at 6:45 PM on Jul 13:
Holly (#16) wrote:
They decided not to date casually at all, meaning that unless they found that the young man was a suitable candidate for marriage from day one (which likely meant different things to each of them, but to all of them meant, at minimum, that he must be spiritually and economically secure) he was not a candidate for dating at all, period.
And how does the girl go about finding out that the young man is a suitable candidate for marriage without spending social interaction time with him? How does she find out he's "spiritually and economically secure" without asking a lot of probing, intrusive questions in a one-on-one situation (which would be construed as a "date" in the Harris / Boundless world)? Or does she just embarrass him in front of a group?
Unless the young lady has a crystal ball or receives a revelation from above, I think that's a very difficult bar to set. It sounds like a case of cart before horse to me. What am I missing?
24. farmer Tom said the following at 8:04 PM on Jul 13:
I'm going to post this comment on both threads to be fair.
I had just recently gotten married when IKDG came out. I read it with interest because I had come to the point in my own life where I had decided to intentionally pursue marriage, rather than following the worlds pattern of dating. I had decided to quit dating, and instead to be intentional in any future relationship. I was impressed with Harris's work and recommended it to many young people over the years.The book is a useful tool in helping us to think about the purpose of marriage and how one should go about pursuing a marriage partner. I was impressed with Harris's work and recommended it to many young people over the years.
Here's the problem,
The tone of the author Suzanne quotes, and many of the comments here contain a huge red flag to me.
Since when is Josh Harris and his book, Debbie Maken and her foolishness, or any other book on dating, relationships and marriage a valid excuse to whine?
Take some personal responsibility, quit blaming some author, philosophy or fad, for your failure, or anyone else's. You are accountable for your actions before God and His church, after that it's up to you to do what is necessary for finding and attracting a mate. There is plenty of good advice out there to counter any false ideas or premises offered by Josh Harris or anyone else.
If you have only read Harris's book and no other, frankly you're an idiot. Scripture says in a Proverbs 11:14
If the only dating advice you've ever read is the opinion of one guy named Harris, you are not wise.
Now remember, I liked what he had to say, still do, but you have no right to blame him, for your or anyone else's failure to take personal responsibility for your dating, marriage situation.
25. Keith said the following at 8:04 PM on Jul 13:
Josh Harris' book might be hard for some people to swallow, but the alternative is probably worse...
While life has no guarantees, in general it is a bad idea to date someone unless there is a serious intention to marry that person. I watched many of my friends date and give themselves over to partners who used them, broke their heart, and left them jaded.
Having observed the pain that many of my friends went though, I would say that the cost of being single is less than the cost of wasting time in a relationship that doesn't go anywhere. Casual dating isn't fun and liberating as some make it out to be it; it is hurtful and often leaves people with levels of emotional bondage (what some people call "baggage").
Holland's comment is neither fair nor accurate, because he is incorrectly assuming that dating is a prerequisit for marriage. The best way to select a partner isn't by dating, but by observing the marriages of parents, friends, family members,and others. Examine what does work, what does not work, how strong couples resolve differences. Learn about yourself, try some new things and see some of them fail, and discover what kind of person you would be in a relationship. Once you have a mental mindset of the type of person / relationship you are looking for, and what you bring to it, just be observant with the people God brings in to your life. But don't make any romantic gestures unless you are absolutely certain you have found your lifetime partner.
26. Mary said the following at 9:00 PM on Jul 13:
I first read IKDG when I was about twelve years old and immediately thought it was God's way of telling me to shun boys completely until I was "grown-up" enough to start pursuing marriage (hey, I was twelve and more than relieved to have an excuse not to have to talk to boys yet).
Well, 8 years and a bit less naivete later, I've come to believe that a middle-of-the-road approach is best. Does it really have to be all or nothing? Meaningless, short-term relationships or complete abstinence from dating? Why not focus on cultivating true, prayer-driven friendships with members of both sexes and remain open to God's leading; who's to say that He isn't going to bring your future spouse into your life before you reach some set point (ie. once you finish college, as soon as you've saved X amount of money, etc.) at which you think you're "ready" to marry?
I could be completely off-base here, but it seems to me that once you've reached a point of maturity and true confidence at which you aren't so desperate for a date that you'll go out with anybody who comes along without knowing anything about his or her character, it might be wiser to follow God passionately and wholeheartedly and leave your love life up to Him, rather than imposing rules upon yourself (even with the best of intentions!) and asking Him to work around them.
Why not start using the oldest and the best matchmaker there is: an unconditionally loving Father who knows exactly when and how to bring each of our future spouses into our lives if we're patient, faithful, and courageous enough to wait, to pray, to listen, and then to act boldly in His perfect time?
27. CLG said the following at 9:22 PM on Jul 13:
"Boy Meets Girl" is a significantly better book, imo. I have read both that and IKDG.
In IKDG, Josh was someone putting ideas out there that were pretty radical and definitely good for kids who are being pressured to be in relationships when they aren't emotionally or financially ready.
However, Boy Meets Girl was a telling of his courtship story and therefore was written from the perspective of someone who has "been there" rather than a book written as an idea.
Honestly, I do think IKDG warped my idea of relationships SIGNIFICANTLY. I read it when it first came out and I wish I had simply skipped it and read the second book (which is what my mom did for my brothers). As a teen, I felt like it gave me a formula and that I had no idea how to implement that formula. I was TERRIFIED of relationships for years. I wanted guys to be interested in me, but the one decent guy who expressed interest I pushed away because I totally freaked out (when I was 19).
However, I am now 25 and in a very healthy and wonderful relationship with an amazing guy. I love him and we aren't engaged yet, but we are planning on getting married. By the way, I do thank Boundless for helping me get to this point. Books like IKDG made me think that I should be "content" to be single for as long as needed. But when I read Debbie Maken's book after Candice recommended it, I felt incredible relief...that it is OK to want to get married. Thanks.
28. Jesse said the following at 9:57 PM on Jul 13:
I tend to agree with Holland's thought. It's more useful for those who have gone through a few dating relationships or have some sense of what could go wrong. For someone out of middle school (like myself at the time), the lesson I took out of it was that "dating is dangerous". Without knowing why, my approach to relationships became a little paranoid. I often remark that I took Christian advice before regular dating advice when it came to relationships, and that my first one ended because badly because I focused too much on problems I didn't have, creating new ones that ended the relationship.
On the other hand, I have one happily married friend who benefited greatly from Harris' thoughts, given his high school dating life. So, I don't feel like the advice is directly wrong. I do, however, feel like the advice can cause problems if not introduced in the right fashion, to the right people with the right life experiences.
29. Stephanie said the following at 10:39 PM on Jul 13:
I did agree with a lot of the stuff in Harris' book, but I don't think that just because you do it the "IKDG" way that everything will turn out perfectly.
I have dated two guys...both were guys that I thought would be possibilites for marriage. Neither of them worked out. Just because you date carefully and purposefully does not mean that it is going to end in marriage. I know that everyone doesn't believe this to be the case, but I think it is an unvoiced misconception that if you do everything right, the relationship will end in marriage. This simply isn't true. I learned this the hard way after my boyfriend of 15 months broke up with me several months ago.
However, careful dating is a must. Casual dating (I believe) leads to needless pain and a possible lack of honestly with the opposite sex (not in every case, obviously).
30. Wendy said the following at 10:59 PM on Jul 13:
Suzanne, thanks for this blog. I remember being in my late 20's when the book came out. Josh wasn't the only one talking about "courtship" at the time, but he had the "catchy" best-packaged message that caught on. I believe that these types of messages have been contributors (not saying it's the only reason) to "protracted singleness" for the never-married Christian 30 and 40 somethings today.
At my church where dating to this day is not done often enough to start with, it pretty much brought it to a halt. It led to either
1)Understandable confusion among men and women (leading to inaction) on how to approach a potential relationship, leading to diminished confidence and social skills for some
and/or
2)Lots of undefined male/female "friendships" where some girls have wondered if perhaps he's leading "courtship" by getting to know her better first before pursuing further, only to find out that he just wasn't into her enough to want to go further. Some guys were likely similarly confused if a girl wanted to start as "just friends" only to turn out she wasn't just trying to take it slow - she wasn't interested enough in him either.
Time flies and before you know it, the mid-30's arrive. Perhaps the church should have been more discerning with what messages should have been given to singles of marriageable age (post high school and especially at the most marriageable point mid-late 20's/early 30's vs. messages that simply belonged to the high school set (like IKDG).
Boundless' message by the Watters to pursue marriage and marry young came 10-15 yrs too late for a lot of us. Thanks for the work you do so today's college to early 30 somethings can have a better future.
31. Kelly said the following at 3:26 AM on Jul 14:
I just wish I had more to show for the past 10 years of my failed romantic life than a few quick flings, an extensive knowledge of the Star Trek universe and the deep brokenness that weighs heavily upon my heart.
I could have written this paragraph myself!
32. Kelly said the following at 3:36 AM on Jul 14:
Here's a story from the "Kissed dating goodbye" generation....
When I finally met a man who was up-front about committment, I thought, "At long last! He's here!" He said all the right things, was serious, intentional, and swept me off my feet and treated me like a princess.
With all of that "magic" happening, I barely had a moment to look at the real person underneath, and it was only God's caution on my heart that caused me to NOT agree to marry him within the first 2 months.
I was so close to saying yes because it was the way it was "supposed to happen".
Aside from all of the bad stuff that happened, one of the biggest lessons I learned from this that even if he IS intentional about dating, that doesn't mean you should rush into it. I firmly believe in KNOWING a person at least a year before marriage, because he successfully hid so much from me in the first few months.
33. Shannon said the following at 6:20 AM on Jul 14:
"Economically secure"? Really?
Wow.
By that standard I never should have married my husband, knowing as I did that he has a physical impairment (seizure disorder) that affects his ability to work.
By that standard the most Godly, mature, handicapped man could not get married.
I say again: Wow.
34. Tami said the following at 8:53 AM on Jul 14:
By the time I read I Kissed Dating Goodbye I was already in my 20's and honestly wasn't impacted one way or the other -- though I had a friend who LOVED the book and gave a copy to each one of us girls in the social circle. :) Having seen similar info put forth in Passion and Purity, it didn't revolutionize my thinking. So I saw good in it, and not-so-helpful in it. I agree with those who have said it's more helpful for high-school-aged kids who are feeling pressure to date at 14, rather than college-age people and young adults who *are* ready to look into the step of getting married.
What I think *is* instructive from this whole conversation, is that we shouldn't structure our entire theology of dating -- or anything -- on *one* book written by one person. The fact that it's written by a person -- with foibles, flaws, and a limited perspective, like the rest of us -- guarantees that there will be gaps and missteps. In the case of Harris' book, his youthful exuberance and conviction probably overshadowed the overall "heart" of his message, which, as a young adult in his 30's ;) he can now explain in a more balanced manner, with more nuance.
NB I LOVE books and I am definitely not saying that gleaning wisdom from them is bad. (I'm also not saying *Harris' book* is bad.) Just that I've learned -- the hard way, sometimes -- that leaning too hard on any one book (other than the Bible) blinds me to other factors and "sides" to dealing with a given issue. This is sort of the same reason why you can't write a research paper using one source -- you've gotta use at least three. Reviewing things from a plurality of reliable sources can help you see things from different angles.
35. Lola said the following at 9:27 AM on Jul 14:
Mike #23,
I think she could ask people who know him or ask people that she knows (i.e. her father, brother, sister, friends) to discretely ask people who know him or better still, she could hire a private investigator to dig up on him.
36. FutureMrsLarijani said the following at 10:47 AM on Jul 14:
In college, I knew of plenty of guys who avoided the school dances and dinners because they were afraid their dates would be buying bridal magazines the next week. Well, maybe not, but it sure seemed that way. Lacking any explanation or a better scapegoat, I blamed the datelessness of myself and my even-prettier friends on Harris' philosophy.
Loris - you and I went to the same place.
My take on it: people that age are a experiencing a little bit of post-adolescent angst. The young men feared marriage more than they should have. The young women were a little . . . crazy at times (myself included). September-December and January - April we were running the rat race.
The two of us lived in what was dubbed the most-socially-awkward-building on campus.
I think many remained dateless because everyone was trying to figure out what the heck to do. They were without parents and had to think for themselves (is it wrong to sit the cafè and talk to her for an hour? if he eats dinner at my table again, should I give him my dad's number? if we go out on a group date, should I let her know that I'm interested in her? Wait, what if I'm supposed to be dating her roommate? . . . I need my R.A.!!)
All of these anxieties are heightened by the rat race we were running continuoulsy.
I think, though, that God works all well. Yes, it was frustrating, but it's over.
I'm glad that I finally found a great guy who wants me and isn't experiencing anxiety over if he asks me to Spring Banquet should he continue to see me afterwards.
Most everyone was wanting direction in relationships - and rightly so - but when it came down to the nitty-gritty we over-analyzed. Many of us were overly-cautious in all the wrong ways and took ourselves too seriously.
Joshua Harris-type advice is good, but when poorly administered leads to an awkward social environment.
37. Cheri said the following at 10:53 AM on Jul 14:
Yeah, I kissed it goodbye in high school and have spent years trying to get it back. Not a helpful book, unless you're on the extreme end of the promiscuity scale, perhaps. Even so, I think we need a more balanced approach - not all or nothing. It warped my thinking about relationships with the opposite sex and I have had to overcome a lot of this...
38. Suzanne Hadley said the following at 12:38 PM on Jul 14:
Back in 1998, I interviewed Joshua Harris about his book.
One of his quotes is almost a direct response to Holland’s charge that he became a “slow moving evangelical dude” because of IKDG:
39. J.B. said the following at 2:02 PM on Jul 14:
I found the book when i was 16 in 10th grade and read it. It was great as far as the idea of a God centered relationship, but i hardly thought that many of the other ideas were practical. I thought it ruined Christian dating to be honest. I did not think it was remotely wise to ask the dad before you asked the girl out. (unless she knew you were doing it) If that was done and the girl had no interest, that provided some awkward situations. I think that BMG was way better upon the idea of dating as christians, but it too was somewhat flawed.
I found the article linked and Holland to be fairly accurate. I think approaching dating in this manner is lame. In fact i cannot recall anyone who used this and got married. Most of my friends met, went on dates, got engaged and then married and are happy. (some were friends first) Most girls i knew in undergrad and HS would have laughed had i approached them like IKDG.
My view is that it is better to have loved and lost, than not loved at all and remain single waiting on "the one". (i do not believe there is such thing) FInding a spouse is about being proactive and putting yourself out there. I also respectfully disagree with post 25 on the last part. I do not think you should wait until you are "absolutely certain" you have found the one. It is not possible to know that without interaction, on the romantic level. You could know the person is possibly marriage potential, but until you are in a relationship romantically, it is impossible to truly know if you are a match/interested in pursuing marriage.
My approach is initial attraction, spiritual maturity, do you mesh well personality wise, and are you both headed in the same direction. (you dont wanna be called to africa and marry a person who wants to be a doctor in Rhode Island) Prayer, friends and family opinions should also be apart of this. You can call it whatever you want, but it is all dating of some type, and as long as it is Christ centered and not "significant other" centered, you will be on the right path. (doesnt mean they are the one, but at least if it doesnt work out you are still cool and no extreme emotional baggage)
I think that christians need to keep Christ first and not over spiritualize dating, this is the why books such as IKDG become almost like the gospel on dating when it is one persons opinion. It isn't inspired and has flaws. (as all not canoninical texts)
40. Mike said the following at 5:04 PM on Jul 14:
Lola wrote:
I think she could ask people who know him or ask people that she knows (i.e. her father, brother, sister, friends) to discretely ask people who know him or better still, she could hire a private investigator to dig up on him.
In some states, that's called stalking...
:-)
In other words, people, this whole idea sounds a lot like a creepy version of a security blanket. "I'm not taking a risk on getting to know that person unless I have a guarantee that he / she is marriage material."
What a ridiculous notion.
41. BDB said the following at 5:58 PM on Jul 14:
Tami (#34) brings up Passion and Purity, which has some interesting anecdotes.
One that struck me was on the day they first realized they might be interested in each other (he was walking her back to campus after a picnic I think), they turned around and walked back to the lake and spent a few HOURS talking. ALONE! Oh no!
So, someone following Elisabeth Elliot's advice on approaching marriage is well within bounds to spend hours alone with a specific person of the opposite sex talking - as long as they are also following the "hands off and clothes on" rule.
There may also be something to the idea that individuals who go through a bad experience become a lot more careful in later interactions. I think there are three people named "Kelly" with a "y" posting now. One of them had a bad experience. I do think that some individuals first decide that it's good to only date people who are serious marriage prospects, but then go further and decide that they don't even need to talk to people who they've decided in their head aren't serious marriage prospects.
Frankly, the latter attitude reminds me of the high-powered sales people who ONLY spend time with those who are potential customers, and decide that all other people are distractions that should be ignored.
42. Philip said the following at 12:21 AM on Jul 15:
I loved this book, and devoured it when I came across it 2 1/2 years ago at the age of 18. I have re-read it a couple times since then, and am still processing and learning from it. I think the number one thing it taught me was to not be selfish. A relationship is a two way thing, and it is to happen in Gods timing. Something so simple, yet revolutionary!
43. ryan said the following at 9:28 AM on Jul 15:
in my opinion I believe that the purpose of the book is to see the desires we have, make them known and give them to God. To truly embrace the one who is the originator, and orchestrater of love because he simply, wonderfully & powerfully is love. I wholeheartedly agree that God has given us a spirit of power, love, and self disipline. That mind set should be included in our love life. He did not give us a spirit of timidity. He calls us to be responisble in the free will that he gives us, and he wants to be apart of that decision making. Especially when it comes to courtship & marriage.
Joshua Harris the traditional insight on your book I kissed dating goodbye is relevant to all generations, and that is my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Cheesy some may call it, but the unseen things that God has done, and is doing through your book are necassary for our generation today!
44. Tami said the following at 10:12 AM on Jul 15:
To BDB's point (34) -- I do recall *something* of my initial reaction: "Gosh, this is even *more conservative* than Elisabeth Elliot's stuff!" :)
45. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:52 AM on Jul 15:
A lot of good exchanges. Trying not to rehash a lot of good points already brought up, but I wanted to just mention a few things:
1. Think for yourself and think critically
Remember that this book was just one author's PERSONAL experience, insight, and opinions on the matter. It isn't the Bible, and one should always be on guard whenever one juxtaposes Bible verses next to any "command" which isn't explicitly written in there. Remember there have been books not just on "Biblical dating" (a term I believe is grossly misleading and should not be used) but on "Biblical eating", "Biblical business practices", etc.
People have used the Bible to justify slavery, racism, and mass-murder. I'm not saying that Harris' motives were wrong or even that some of ideas were incorrect, but that as others have stated it's very easy for a set of guidelines to evolve into unnecessary and perhaps harmful dogma.
For example I could easily take the one Proverb (which by the way
aren't the same as commands) which says, "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender" and completely turn it into a legalistic lifestyle. From that verse we could wrongfully infer that being just being rich is wrong and equates to oppression. Another is that ALL forms of debt are bad and should be avoided. Student loans, mortgages, credit cards, business loans, heck even bond funds. The principle here is to point out that those with money tend to wield a lot more power than those who don't (which is true) and that putting oneself in debt is making yourself vulnerable.
2. Don't get too wrapped up in what the definition of "dating" means, but don't be afraid to use the term either
A key area of contention among certain Believers seems to result from the meaning of the word "date". When someone says, "I kissed dating goodbye" what does he/she really mean? Does it mean, "I can't engage in small talk with the opposite sex AT ALL", or does it mean, "I can't spend time one on one", or perhaps, "We can spend time together, but only in a group setting"?
I think a lot of young people (esp Christians it seems) avoid the term "dating" because it implies certain expectations or people are afraid of what others may think/say if they hear the term. For example, it's more innocuous to say, "Janet and I are going to go hang out at the bookstore for awhile" than "Janet and I are going on a date at the bookstore".
That's why I agree with others who posted that rather than simply allow/forbid "dating" that in regards to parents/teenagers still living in the home to talk about what relationships/behaviors are acceptable and allowed. Going to dinner with a guy/girl may be just fine, but going over to their house alone may not be.
So rather than just simply say to people, "I don't date" perhaps explain what you mean if you think it will be ambiguous to your listeners.
And if you believe you are dating, don't be afraid to call it what it
is. To say, "We're just 'hanging out'" or "We're just friends" when you are acting by what most of society would call a date (e.g.
spending time together alone) is simply being afraid of a term where no fear should be warranted.
3. ALL relationships, especially of the guy/girl nature involve risk
I think what some books/teaching try to do is imply that a certain methodology of getting married is superior because it will "save you from heartache". That is definitely not true. Dating can get your heart broken. Courtship can get your heart broken. Marriage can get your heart broken. Any meaningful romance requires one to put some or all of your heart out there and is completely vulnerable.
Yes, one should not give out their heart unwisely or flippantly. And that's why the head should also be involved in the process as well. But most would agree that it is worth it to pursue love even with those risks.
4. A system is successful only if people agree to adopt it
I have nothing against the courtship or the dating model. I think both have pluses and minuses. And we've seen that both can lead to stable, successful marriages.
From the sounds of the criticism of those who tried Harris' suggestions or interpretation of his ideas tells me that they were frustrated because this system didn't work for them. Therein lies the danger of adhering to an unnecessary doctrine: Not being aware of what your possible to-be spouses are thinking. And shame on those who advertise either explicitly or not something to the effect of, "This the 'Biblical way to do it'. If you do it right, God will bring you a spouse." The fact is, the majority of Christians aren't comfortable with the courtship model and that's OK. But if you are one who really wants to try it, then one needs to find others who also share that philosophy. And that won't come easy.
This idea of having situational awareness also extends into being outwardly attractive. Mannerisms, attitude, appearance--they all have a place. Granted, these externals can be taken too far and the heart ignored, but one ought not to be ashamed of improving the external if it isn't at the expense of the internal.
In summary, despite what some may say, the Bible really doesn't give clear cut guidance about how to go about finding a spouse. All the examples in the Bible were reflective of their culture. Does that mean I approve of "recreational dating" without any intention to marry? No, but I do not believe that marriage has to be the primary thing on one's mind when going out on a first date. However, I do believe that marriage can't be entirely excluded either; meaning that if you do date, it must be someone who could possibly be a spouse. That implies among other things that you should only date Believers (I agree that most who missionary date are prone to delusion and overlooking red flags). And of course it includes the obvious as not engaging in sexual immorality.
I appreciate that Harris has recognized that his writings should not be taken too literally and has taken steps to address them. I hope that those who did not find his methods fruitful will be able to look ahead rather than dwell on the past.
46. Tami said the following at 11:27 AM on Jul 15:
Mike T, I like your summary and conclusions.
47. Jo said the following at 2:15 PM on Jul 15:
Years ago, my first boyfriend referenced IKDG when he was breaking up with me. He spent another half an hour getting to the 'I think we should just be friends' part of his speech, but I saw it coming from that moment. It was kinda funny actually. Anyway, he made a big point of the fact that he felt like he should focus on God for a while rather than be in a relationship...
Then a couple of months after that he started going out with another girl, who he later married. A God thing for him, maybe - or perhaps that's being too generous, who knows. :)
Anyway, I still haven't read it.
And that's the end of my pointless interlude.
48. Loris said the following at 3:39 PM on Jul 15:
Future Mrs. Larijani,
Hindsight is so clear once the angst wears off, isn't it? If I had had a lot of social success at the time, I probably wouldn't have noticed my now-husband. My senior year, I got sick of being isolated with other bored young women on my hall and ventured out. He was one of the first people I met in the fall. He was and is very outgoing and confident, (and had never heard of Harris), so the case is pretty likely that IKDG was an excuse for the immature, shy, and broke to avoid opposite-sex contact rather than anything that actually tangibly damaged the Christian college dating scene. It just stunk at the time.
49. mikesgateway said the following at 2:35 PM on Jul 16:
Okay, so the comment by Tim Holland, fantastic.....if you are into blaming others for your own failures. No one should take a book, hook line and sinker, and expect that they have no responsibility in adjusting their reality later in life! I dare say that Tim's lack of dating experience is not to be placed at the feet of the book!
50. Rachael said the following at 9:09 AM on Jul 17:
Was the following thought from Harris' book? The thought of not wanting to be at the altar and not wanting to marry everyone else that the spouse had dated previously or not wanting one's spouse to feel that way about the people one has dated?
While that particular thought worded in that way isn't constantly in my head, I think some relatives of issues underlying that way of thinking might influence me negatively...
51. Becca said the following at 10:25 PM on Jul 19:
As a girl who has been in a "relationship" with a guy that took this book to heart, I can tell you that there's definitely some confusion surrounding the subject matter. I ended up with a good friend who said "I like you, but I can't date you becuase I'm not ready to get married yet". So for years, I was in this half-relationship with someone who couldn't officially call it "dating". Essentially, this created all the benefits of a relationship with none of the commitment. I still believe that this book has validity, though if it's used to pursue intentional relationships, but in this case it was mis-used.
52. Paul said the following at 8:20 AM on Jul 20:
Late to the party, but I thought I'd just add my story.
I was given IKDG by my parents when I was somewhere between 15 and 17, along with a copy of I Gave Dating a Chance by Jeramy Clark, one of several written responses to Harris’ work. I imagine they were trying to provide balance.
At the time, IKDG resonated with me, and in a twist that is rather ironic given the respective titles, Clark’s structures for dating struck me as far more legalistic than Harris’ approach!
I sort of took Harris’ ideas on board, and apart from one (now largely comic) misstep in high school, I didn’t pursue relationships throughout high school and college.
Harris’ work freed me from the pressure to date or enter a relationship. This had the great benefit of freeing up much of my time, which I then used alternatively very well, by becoming quite active in my church, in a mixed circle of friends, or very poorly, by consuming large amounts of entertainment, causing something of an addiction, and failing to address other negative behaviours, addictions and things about me that were incongruent with wanting to be married. For example, doing some exercise to lose the 75lbs that I needed to lose would have been a good idea. (Fortunately, God is gracious and that weight has now come off.)
In short, what IKDG didn’t do was drive me toward becoming ready for marriage. Even reading and re-reading Boy Meets Girl several times didn’t clarify my thinking enough to realize that I needed to make some serious change if I was to be married. Just thinking about it now, I’ve been a subscriber to Boundless for a similar length of time, and great though it is, on many occasions it similarly failed to spur me onward.
My point here is definitely *not* one of criticism of Boundless or Harris. In my mind it’s very clear that this is about me and the journey God has me on, and that Harris, Boundless and others can only be a guide, a planter of seeds – it’s up to each one of us to determine, with God’s direction, the paths for our lives, and for us to be obedient to that, which I don’t think I was. In other words, the fault is all mine. What Boundless and IKDG definitely *did* do was help shape my thinking in the right direction, from which actions have eventually followed.
Finally, in an interesting turn of events, I thought that this blog was kind of ironic timing. Now 26 and still single, right before reading this blog I had recently started re-reading IKDG after something prompted me to reconsider my beliefs.
I had become slightly interested in a younger lady who was on the fringe of my social circle. After our paths crossing a couple of times, I hoped they would cross again, but found that it wasn’t happening, so I decided to get a bit intentional (thanks to the good stuff in the Guys Guide to Marrying Well) and ask the lady to a friendly coffee. She indicated that she had agreed with her parents that she would avoid such situations and wanted to keep it to group activities.
While I was naturally disappointed, more than that, the incident challenged me to think: I used to believe exactly the same – why had my perspective changed? It was less as a result of a deliberate decision on my part, and more a reaction to recent comments around our church about relationships. A note to the wise: if you don’t want to start a massive discussion on facebook, don’t mention relationships. Period.
So my question to ponder is this – to what extent to I still believe IKDG? What is its relevance to me now that I’m working full time and have a (sometimes unhealthily-) strong desire for marriage? With God’s help I’m doing okay at keeping broad social circles and interacting with people in group settings. But then, when I do find someone in whom I am interested, what are the next steps I should take? Over all the advice from IKDG and other works, I have to apply the culture filter too, since I am a citizen and resident of Australia, and even that can be a challenge, since there are a variety of views within our churches and families, the same as everywhere else, I assume.
I don’t have the answers yet, but one thing I do think is that I’ll try to find a mentor to guide me through this and the myriad other major issues I must sort out as a believer.
53. Nicole said the following at 8:16 AM on Aug 3:
I think it's interesting to see how many people fail to realize that the most important characteristic of being a Christ follower is faith, and that it plays a HUGE role when it comes to finding your life partner...
I wouldn't follow Josh Harris' theory if I didn't have faith that the God who created the universe can also help me to cross paths with the person I'll share my life with.
Many see Josh's book as some set of rules, but really all he's trying to accomplish is to open your mind to the world of friendship and sharing Christ without being romantically involved, something that as a society we automatically forget once we get hormonal, to be frank.
The key to kissing dating goodbye is to have faith that Christ will help you find the other puzzle piece of your life, and that you don't purposely look for them yourself! I mean, what kind of faith do you have when you're doing all this work to hopefully have a "love at first sight" encounter with your future spouse? Leave it to God, you do believe He's powerful enough to handle something like your love life, don't you?