Christianity Today Leads a Conversation on Early Marriage
by Steve Watters on 07/31/2009 at 4:47 PM
The new Christianity Today magazine is out and the cover story has already generated a lot of buzz. Dr. Mark Regnerus from the University of Texas wrote a piece for CT called "The Case for Early Marriage."
This isn't a new topic for Boundless readers. Just recently, in fact, Dr. Regnerus joined us on The Boundless Show to address this topic.
What's impressive is that Christianity Today would elevate this topic for discussion with such a well-argued piece. I started highlighting interesting points to excerpt in this blog post and then realized I had highlighted almost the entire article. For that reason, I'll just encourage you to go read the whole piece -- including the related article "Restless, Reformed, and Single" that includes quotes from our very own Lisa Anderson.
And then let us know what you think of Dr. Regnerus's bold message.
1. BDB said the following at 5:35 PM on Jul 31:
LOL - I find it amusing that while evaluating a Calvinist dating site, they wanted to get an Arminian to comment. What is this, fair and balanced?
If it was a secular publication, I wonder if they would have gotten an LDS commentator to offer an opinon about whether marriage at 23-24 was "early."
2. BDB said the following at 6:20 PM on Jul 31:
Finished the long article.
I think he's missed something large, that has been discussed here extensively: there are many sincere Christians who are not dating.
While the youth-group sermons on "how far is too far" don't seem to have much effect on some people, they DO have an effect on others. I'm convinced that more sincere Christians hear that and in order to avoid falling into sin, set really conservative boundaries. These are the men who do not even approach women until they are financially secure (or believe that God has told them to approach someone specific); and the women who avoid spending any time talking to men one-on-one, let alone trying to push the "how-far-is-to-far" limits. The article doesn't seem to speak to sincere Christians who decided to be super-careful to avoid sin.
3. Mishy from SouthBayAreaCali said the following at 6:48 PM on Jul 31:
I would have to say Mark Gungor has been talking a lot about young marriage and I think its for sure brought new perspective to me. Although I'm not married yet and I'm now 26. I don't think I'm per say young anymore. At least not young like 18 or 21 anymore. I'm still young but feel bad because I'm not married yet, would that be bad because I didn't get married at a young age. Honestly, I look back and don't feel I was mature enough. Plus, no prospects in my path either. Still no prospects in my path today at 26. I was getting to know a guy, but at 24 still living with mom and dad and he didn't even have a checking account or cell phone, or his own car. The money he does make, what does he do with it? His dad can't drive anymore, so he mostly uses his dad's old car. I suppose its really none of my business anyway. He said he wouldn't be ready to marry for like 5 years cause he felt he was "too young". Can we say I'm sure his parents probably put that "your too young" thought in his head. His parents seemed old fashioned when I met them. In any case, he was a christian, but kinda insecure due to his past with another girl who he made out with like 2 years ago. Its a long story, but he was still dealing with guilt and feeling not worthy in God's eyes. I felt really bad for him, and I was the lucky one I didn't have much of a past at all to hold me back. I'm so glad God protected and guarded my heart of getting anymore involved with this young man. Of course, I was hurt when he said he wasn't ready for marriage or getting to know anyone until he dealt with his stuff. I'm very grateful, I just hope he wasn't the only one to come down my path. Hopefully there is another who has all of his emotional, mental, and other things put together already. I just sometimes feel these statements of young marriage and its good, makes those of us who are now in our upper 20's to 30's seem like we couldn't get it together earlier on. I don't take any of that personal, I think young marriage is good and should be honored. My brother is 24 and getting married next year. I think its great! Anyway, thank you boundless, you guys keep rockin it! Anyone have any advice for me that would be most helpful.
4. gracerose said the following at 10:45 PM on Jul 31:
This article touches on many important points. What I highlighted was the ratio of Christian women to men. It completely makes sense. When I see so many eligible women in church and so few guys, it's obvious why the girls are single. There simply are not enough men to go around. I think a lot of people who are single in their late 20s and on into their 30s and 40s are simply victims of the statistics.
5. Keith said the following at 1:39 AM on Aug 1:
Finallllllllllyyyyyyyy.....
Someone has spoken the truth - we wouldn't have a sex outside of marriage problem if marriage became the norm at a younger age.
The real problem is that churches have allowed singleness to be accepted as the norm rather than the exception. Worse still, young people today have very few examples of a truly happy marriage. On TV all they see is stories of famous people who have cheated, people they know who have cheated, abused, lied....
Rather than blaming the current generation for not marrying it is only fair to blame our selfish parents who ruined marriage - their cheating and selfish lifestyle have made poor examples of marriage.....
6. Callie said the following at 8:10 AM on Aug 1:
Thanks for pointing out this article, Steve. Even as newly wed expecting a baby, I was still encouraged that someone is adding the Get Married message to the purity message.
In all my youth group days, I never heard any teaching about actually taking the steps forward to get married paired with the necessity of abstinence. Its a refreshing way to approach the issue because it provides a biblical solution to the pains of the great wait.
My only critique would be that he didn't make any mention of helping preparing young adults for marriage. He does well to address the need for communities to help out young married couples, but if we are to encourage young marriages, we also need to encourage young adults to begin living more responsible lives at younger ages.
His message will be quite a challenge for anyone who is struggling over the balance between God's sovereignty and our free will, when it comes to His design for bringing marriage about.
7. Julie said the following at 2:09 PM on Aug 1:
I have mixed feelings about this. It is difficult to wait and wait and wait for marriage. At the same time, many people seem to make wiser marital decisions at older ages. I know, there are exceptions and some people have good discernment and maturity at a young age. Most of our grandparents married young and stayed married for life. Most of our parents married young and we all know what the Baby Boomer divorce rate is. Seems to me that without the societal constraints that kept so many marriages together in our grandparents' day (at least when things were tough), marriages have to be even healthier and stronger and closer in order to make it. For me and most of my Christian friends, it would have been a bad choice to marry any of the people we dated in college. As hard as the single years were, we had so much opportunity for growth and we all married well in our late 20s. None of us have divorced, and as far as I know, no one has had major marriage conflicts.
8. Kellie said the following at 3:56 PM on Aug 1:
I married at 25 (my husband was 30), we dated for a year and a half before getting married (had known each other for about 2 years). Not everyone who gets married later is delaying marriage, and I do think there are advantages to marrying at least after college. I have a cousin who married young (20) and he and his wife are struggling in many aspects of their marriage that my husband and I never had to deal with.
9. Matt said the following at 4:37 PM on Aug 1:
Great article. And, I think Dr. Mark Regnerus did a much better job on this piece than his Op-Ed column in the Washington Post (although the latter might've received more attention from the rest of the world).
I especially appreciate that Dr. Regnerus is pointing out the church's obsession with abstinence and loss of focus on marriage. Although I don't believe abstinence should be forgotten in youth groups and church camps, I also see the lack of church discussion over marriage for the reasons Dr. Regnerus mentions (most young couples are perceived as too young, too poor, too inexperienced, too immature, and too sexually-driven).
Someone's sounding the call! What do we do next?
10. Anglican girl said the following at 12:29 PM on Aug 2:
I loved this article, and am so glad to see it getting cover status in CT. I just hope it gets wide distribution throughout the church.
I would love to see someone write a followup for CT that would get a little more practical, i.e., how we can create a culture of mentoring and match making in our churches.
It's about time that this issue got top billing.
11. Tasha said the following at 5:31 PM on Aug 2:
I LOVED this article. It was well-written and it pointed out the reason many young marriages probably don't work: A lack of social support. I admit that I am marrying young (age 21, fiance is 28), so I am biased, but I never expected to be marrying young.
My family was very much the kind that wanted me to marry around thirty, and my mind certainly wasn't focused on finding a husband, but just living my life to the fullest during my single years. During this time, I found my future husband, and while I may be young, I do believe that as long as we stay connected to God, each other and our community, we can have a successful marriage.
Thank you Christianity today (and Boundless for pointing this article out) for pointing out the benefits of early marriage and how it can be a good thing for all of society, not just Christians.
12. Dan (real name) said the following at 10:41 PM on Aug 2:
One thing I love about my honey (whom I asked out and whom I am being intentional with) is that she doesn't have an axe to grind against men.
FOR ONCE, can we have an article that encourages early marriage WITHOUT going the "blame-men-first" route? FOR ONCE? Please?
Please?
PLEASE?!?!
Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
C'mon you relationship authors, bloggers and writers, it can't be THAT hard, can it?
13. Dr. Ransom (E. Stephen Burnett) said the following at 7:28 AM on Aug 3:
Great stuff in the articles -- both of them. Briefly, regarding the second:
Sigh -- how utterly annoying -- making up straw-man "Calvinism" and then sneering because the actions of Reformed people don't match up.
I admit, like Olson, I'm making a personal pot-shot about doctrine debate rather than saying anything of substance about the actual focus of the article (why was his quote even here, I wonder?).
Once upon a time, free-willies perplexed by "Calvinists" protested, Calvinism makes men into robots. Now, faced with the obvious fact that "Calvinists" don't just sit around and wait for things to happen (because they know the God Who ordained the end also ordains the means), free-willies are still sneering again: Their actions don't match their theology!
No, the truth is that their actions don't match your skewed straw-man version of Reformed Christianity. Gee, so sorry to disappoint you. ;-) :-P>
14. Jeremy said the following at 9:00 AM on Aug 3:
From the CT article:
I almost hate to point it out, but that parenthetical aside is false -- it would only be true if 28 was the mean (or average) age. The median of {22, 28, 28} is still 28.
15. Kelli said the following at 11:30 AM on Aug 3:
wow, this was an incredible article! thank God people are talking about how to make healthy, stable communities..
16. Sara said the following at 12:26 PM on Aug 3:
I just wanted to say that I really loved the article. Also, I don't think the author was trying to say that late marriage was inherently bad. Some of us grew up in families where we were told that getting married before age 26-28 would lead to nothing but trouble and divorce. Our Churches tended to support that viewpoint. What I think Dr. Regnerus is trying to say is that early marriage, if you have the opportunity, should not be avoided just because you are young. With the proper Church support it can be very successful and happy.
I just wanted to make the distinction between what he is saying (that it may be bad to delay marriage for the sake of becoming older)versus what a lot of people seem to feel he is saying (settle for whoever you date first to ensure you get married young).
17. a sassy sister said the following at 1:47 PM on Aug 3:
To be honest, I understood Regenerus's message about the failure to encourage (and support as a community) early marriage along with abstinence, but he misses the mark in so many other areas, especially when it comes to blaming protracted singleness on immature men.
18. Sarah23 said the following at 2:07 PM on Aug 3:
Dan (real name)# 12 - I understand your frustration, but at the same time, the last FOUR men I have talked to on the surface claimed a sincere desire for marriage...however after delving in deeper through conversation I learned that they were:
A.) Afraid of the responsibilities of marriage.
B.) Not ready to give up being single.
C.) Unsure of how to pursue marriage, almost paralyzed in how to move forward and had no idea how to be intentional.
D.) More interested in talking about the bible and the glories of heaven than living a life here....sounds great, but when all you want to talk about is the future you have a serious problem in my opinion. You can't stick your head in the sand and avoid life.
The last guy I talked with was on a Christian dating site and said he desired marriage and family, that he wanted to be married sooner rather than later and biblically our faith seemed to be on the same page - he had SO much potential to be a good match, or so I thought. We had several in depth conversations and eventually I realized he was ALL over the place. The sad thing is I really believe he is a strong Christian on many points, but he was stuck in that "maybe I should be celibate" mind set, although from my viewpoint he clearly desired marriage and family, and he wasn't serving in any great aspect as far as I could tell (he didn't even attend church regularly because of his work schedule)...he didn't want to give up his "free time". Eventually he admitted he was on the site because his parents had urged him to create a profile (he was 25 and his younger and older siblings are all married w/ children). I flat out told him he should get off the dating site, figure out what he really wanted and stop depriving a Christian woman of a good Christian husband. I urged him to read Boundless, but who knows if he will....needless to say it was quite disappointing, although we only talked for about 3 weeks before I started pushing him to state what his intentions were (not like I was asking for an engagement, but just wanted to know where this could be headed?) that's when things crashed and burned.
I will say that thanks to Boundless, I feel I really protected my feelings from being hurt for no reason by not forming an attachment that wasn't based on any true commitment or intentions. I put myself out there, but not past a reasonable point, and I had enough confidence and clarity to walk away from the situation when I realized it was going no where.
SO...in my case I have been open-minded to at least 4 eligible Christian men (some in "real life", some on-line, some that were exactly my "type" and some that weren't) and all of them have been huge disappointments. Sure, they were all attracted to me and enjoyed talking to me, but when I asked, "where is this going?" they freaked out.
Needless to say, it's quite discouraging and frustrating. But I know there are just as many women with commitment-phobia out there, so it's not just a male problem. Although I do feel it's worse for women because we are not the pursuer, and I think if more men were stronger leaders and more intentional they could help influence the women.
Anyway...amen!!! I loved this article!! It's so full of truth, I hope a lot of people read it and are influenced by it....my favorite quote:
"Most young Americans no longer think of marriage as a formative institution, but rather as the institution they enter once they think they are fully formed. "
We've got to change that mind set!!
19. ccinnova said the following at 2:56 PM on Aug 3:
Dan (#12): your comment is spot on.
Interestingly, Dr. Regnerus points out the unbalanced ratio of single women to single men in the evangelical church. Is it possible that the male-bashing approach used by so many who've discussed the issue of late marriage among evangelicals might have something to do with that ratio?
20. Texas Craig said the following at 2:58 PM on Aug 3:
Dr. Ransom (#13):
While both you and Mr. Olsen may have made--as you labeled it--potshots at the other's theology, at least he was a bit more respectful, not resorting to name-calling and inflammatory rhetoric ("free willies," "sneering," "how utterly annoying," "perplexed").
I suppose I could say "How utterly annoying - another Calvinist who is rude, disrespectful, and condescending" - but I won't. ;-)
21. brx said the following at 3:00 PM on Aug 3:
Re: "Restless, Reformed, and Single";
Right-on LisaA!
Grace, peace & adventure in real-life community with skirts, skull rings, and low-healed boots!
...got a pirate sword? :>
22. BDB said the following at 3:07 PM on Aug 3:
If you think about it Dr. Regnerus would be a good name for Professor of Defense Against the Dark Arts.
23. Lucy Goosey said the following at 3:28 PM on Aug 3:
Due to sin or death, there are MANY single young people AND single older people who don't or didn't have anyone to model a Christian marriage before them (regardless of whether the parents are/were married or not). They, therefore, don't know the purpose of marriage or the practice of a Christian marriage.
It's true that the younger singles and older singles can go to a church and be around married couples, but I believe there definitely needs to be an intentional approach to teaching singles. That would make marriage out to not be an island that it seems to have become in the church.
In my opinion, married couples need to invite singles to their homes. Singles need to be available for the invitations and not JUST think they need to hang around other singles. I don't necessarily think they should be invited by married couples JUST SO they can be introduced to other singles. I believe it would be a chance for married couples to model their marriage. If there are other singles who are invited...then it would be a chance for single Christians to meet like-minded people rather than meeting them just because they are single and available.
I believe prayer for Christian community with singles and married couples mixed together is key. As a single (abused as a child...the sin I wrote of earlier), I don't mind seeing a married couple I'm now in community with, show affection for each other in front of me just as they probably did in front of their children growing up. As a matter of fact, I'm going to e-mail them and let them know that I appreciate it.
I'm a teacher and they say if you want kids to learn something...teach it. No matter if you think they already know it.
Even if I'm older than most of my married friends, I believe I can still learn from them if their marriage has been built on a Godly foundation.
Christian singles need to be teachable and married couples need to teach. All of that takes humility.
With love,
Lucy
24. Scott said the following at 3:34 PM on Aug 3:
Heh, nice thing to point out. #14. Bad statistics make me very sad (it's pretty much my job :[)
I do agree with some of the guys complaints. Certainly the situation they have presented is a valid situation, but it is not representative of every situation! (in fact there was a national geographic graph posted here I think that shows that it differs by city: For example, Chicago, where I am now is dominated by single females, and Houston, where my home is, is dominated by single men!)
There are a lot of guys who are stuck in that "adultoesence" or whatever it is, but there are other situations too! If the roles were reversed (more guys than single women; my church is actually a bit slanted toward single guys afaik, but it's probably even), then the opposite effect might occur!
It's one of those "it makes a great point" articles, but if they really want to delve into it, they need to attack it from a variety of angles, and understand that there are a variety of situations and a variety of factors (for example, they fail to mention things women could do, like idealizing romance to an idol or a negative view of the "helpmeet" role. My intent is not to cast stones at women but to realize that marriage is a two-person dance.)
#18: For every story like yours, there is a story about a guy who has had equally frustrating times trying to court/date women. I do feel bad for you, but please don't think every guy is a boorish jerk.
25. Scott said the following at 3:38 PM on Aug 3:
Addendum:
I do agree that there are a ton of guys need to step up in general, and that definitely the importance of marriage is not being instilled into a lot of young men. I don't disagree with the article, and I agree with the thrust of it (we have a desire for sex, but if we can't have it we are very vulnerable to temptation, especially the longer it goes!), but I feel the frustration where it's just always the man's fault.
26. Trisha said the following at 3:38 PM on Aug 3:
I attend a rather large church that has a singles ministry....larger churches don't ignore the singles that attend there. Smaller churches are more family orentatied because there are so few singles in the church....the few singles that do attend there could start a singles small group. Singles ministries are important to connect singles (and not for the purposes of finding a mate....that does happen in singles ministries but shouldn't be the main purpose of the singles ministry) for Godly friendship purposes and growing in God as Christian singles.
27. Jim H. said the following at 3:55 PM on Aug 3:
Just a thought that might address the perceived male maturity issue. Stop segregating singles groups at age 30. In order to be a good provider, many men focus on career building in their 20's and may not be financially ready for marriage until late 20's and in some cases even into early - mid 30's. Yet most churches segregate singles groups at age 30, limiting the opportunities of more mature, established men to meet single, never-before married women (since the over 30's group tends to be mostly divorced people and some never-before married Christian singles have convictions against remarriage after divorce). I think it would be better to combine the 20's and 30's folks into the same group, to maximize opportunities.
I do agree that with the article that the best case is for BOTH men and women to marry younger rather than putting it off even for supposedly sound reasons such as establishing financial stability. I believed that too, but in restrospect it was a mistake to put off marriage. But given the fact that so many people have made the same mistake mistake of putting off marriage, I think it is a good idea to relax some of the church singles group age boundaries.
28. Nick said the following at 4:35 PM on Aug 3:
Except for Dan, and possibly a few others, has anybody here read last Monday's Boundless Answers? Yes, there are men who choose to ignore marriage, but by constantly harping on them, you really do a disservice to those of us who truly do desire marriage, and take steps to pursue it. We recognize godly women, and do desire to honor God in marriage, but as John said, we are "seeking a wife, not buying a fuel-efficient car." Would that it were so straightforward! Taking initiative is no guarantee of marriage, and lack thereof is not the only reason a man may be single. As the saying goes, "It takes two to tango." I don't have an issue with encouraging men to pursue women, but please acknowledge that there are Christian men, ready for marriage, who are taking initiative in this area.
29. Kari said the following at 5:11 PM on Aug 3:
Eh, good article for sure... BUT I always lean toward the simple fact that it IS within every Believing person's reach to not have sex before marriage. No exceptions. If you know the truth, do what it takes to live it. Yeah we are stupid to support prolonged abstinence and stupid to make it difficult for people to marry, but hopefully we aren't using that as an excuse when Christians do have sex. Be your own person-- if your parents won't your pay for school if you marry, pay for your own school. If everyone's only problem with your relationship is that you are subjectivly "too young" or subjectivly haven't "established your single identity" say thanks, and get married anyway.
Maybe those people who bend to peer pressure not to get married also bend to their own sexual desires more easily as well...
30. Tami said the following at 5:36 PM on Aug 3:
Jim H (27) wrote:
"...single, never-before married women (since the over 30's group tends to be mostly divorced people..."
I see this assertion frequently, and yet I know of *many* lovely, never-married, non-bitter, committed Christian women in their 30s... and I know very few divorced women in that age bracket (I would say "not any" but as soon as I say that I'd likely think of someone!). Perhaps it's due to where I live, but still... any time I see this assumption come up I want to challenge it. :)
31. BDB said the following at 7:02 PM on Aug 3:
A few people asked what practical steps they can take. I've thought of a few ideas:
A) If you have some sort of young adults group and they preach a sermon on physical boundaries, introdce them to Elisabeth Elliot's work and suggest that they also do a sermon on beginning to pray about marriage, rather than just "how far is too far."
B) If you believe marriage should be formative, then you need to talk about this. I know a few couples that got married young and did fine - but they gave each other a lot of grace to make mistakes while they learned. The early marriages that failed were based soley on chemistry, seemingly without thoughtful consideration that it would be necessary to develop operational skills, also.
C) Whether in my cubicle at work or in other settings, I've overheard LOTS of women denigrating men for not making enough money or generally not having it all together already. The message to any men who hear this is that they shouldn't try until they DO have it all together - even if it takes 10 years to get it all together. If you don't enjoy the prospect of waiting those 10 years alone, you should speak up and say you're willing to start with nothing and build it with someone.
32. IWishToRemainAnonymous said the following at 7:11 PM on Aug 3:
I am nearly thirty, a virgin, and feeling kind of insulted by an article that basically states that young Christians need to get married ASAP to avoid the inevitable tumble into premarital sex. Maybe I should just take it as a compliment since I'm NOT in the 80% of evangelical Christians who are supposedly engaging in premarital sex.
So it's better to marry than burn. I understand that. But if a person is of weak enough character that they have to get married at 20 simply because they can't stay out of bed with the opposite gender any longer, who's to say that in 5, 10, or more years when things in the marriage get tough or boring or their spouse looks less attractive than they did as a college sophomore, they won't wander then since they didn't develop self-discipline at an earlier age?
Getting married and hopping in bed at an early age isn't going to solve character faults.
33. Catherine said the following at 7:27 PM on Aug 3:
Loved the article- I am glad Christianity Today is finally highlighting how nonsensical some of the abstinence teaching out there is without young marriage. A few comments
1. i hope boundless will explore more ways the church could support young marriages. I thought it was great someone finally mentioned that! I know that that has delayed marriage in my life- how do we pay the rent and eat in school? how do we even afford an engagement ring without much of a salary and heavy student loan debt? some mentoring and financial assistance from the church when ends just don't meet would be great.
2. one thing i see is a lack of a support network of young married with high educational levels. my one friend who married young only has married friends who tend to come from lower educational/socioeconomic levels because young marriage is so rare among women with graduate degrees. with young motherhood that pool grows even smaller. its very hard to maintain a marriage when all of your friends are still single at 26 and you have little in common with those who married at 22 or 23. this is one thing i have noticed with my mormon friends- young marriage is common in their culture- they have the benefit of usually finding young married couples like themselves in graduate school
34. Dan real name said the following at 8:36 PM on Aug 3:
I plan on writing a lengthy response about my irritation with male-bashing and marriage pursuit in general here when I can get the time, but I also want to make this point about marriage pursuit and purity in men (note that I am not hiding my real name):
I have sinned sexually alot in my life as a single who is now 41, and am currently involved in a support group for sex addiction. Take it from me because I HAVE WITNESSED IT FIRSTHAND:
Marriage doesn't cure sexual sinning.
For my several years involved in this group, I have been only 1 of a few men in my group who have never been married. The MAJORITY of my brothers in recovery have sinned sexually AFTER marriage.
I bring this up because it is important that men (i.e., everyone) practice sexual purity/self-control at all times, not just before marriage.
35. Sarah23 said the following at 9:24 PM on Aug 3:
Kari - I agree, good point!
GUYS - I haven't given up on you all! The "bad" experiences I have had have only motivated me to pray even harder for all of you. It's a tough pursuit you have and I believe there are plenty of you going about it the right way. I truly do not blame all guys for the few "bad apples" :) I'm sorry if anything I said came off like I was blaming all men for my situation, because I truly do not. Don't get frustrated with feeling like men are always being blamed....but rather I hope that the ones who do need to get their hearts and lives right will be chastened and those of you who are already on the right path can feel encouraged that you are not adding to the problem, but helping to solve it!
36. Phoebe said the following at 1:44 AM on Aug 4:
Even at my very sound, Bible-strong church, I have been disappointed to see little to no teaching on Biblical marriage being given to the teens and college students. Be pure, follow God, etc, but no "This is what marriage is. Prepare for it and look for it." My (I believe) Biblical worldview on marriage has been shaped by my family and resources I have reached through it and close friends. Churches need to start to teach teens and young adults about MARRIAGE.
37. Dr. Ransom (E. Stephen Burnett) said the following at 9:36 AM on Aug 4:
BDB (no. 22), that's hilarious.
Briefly: I have nothing against blaming Christian men if they deserve it for their video-game-slacker, emasculated wimpy-Christian mindset. This isn't about feminism; I've seen it myself. And testimonies such as that of Sarah above (no. 18) make me both sobered at the state of lackluster theology and practice in the life of a Christian man, and a bit annoyed at what amounts to a sin of failing to study Scripture for its truths about God's will and how to follow Him, and not taking risks in life and trusting Him.
To Texas Craig (no. 20),
You cut me to the quick, and reminded me that despite all teachings about Grace, the smallness of man and the greatness of God Who saves His own, anyone can fall back into ungracious behavior. Especially because I myself was once subjected to "snarky Calvinists," I ought to have watched my rhetoric (in no. 13) more carefully.
Yet might I clarify my use of the term "free-willie"? I should have put it in better context. My friends, both in real life and online, "Calvinist" and "free-willie" alike, know I use the term as one of endearment (for those who "overdose" on the doctrines of God's love and human responsibility) and in place of "Arminian."
That's partly because most people don't know who that is anyway, nor would they accept everything he believed even if they did (it's similar to how I use the term "Calvinist" only as a nickname for the Grace-based Gospel, as Spurgeon said; I don't share Calvin's beliefs on everything). On an online forum in which I'm active, some "free-willie" friends of mine have even accepted the term as a sort of badge of honor. We banter back and forth about the issues, and it's all ultimately in fun. My problem above was in forgetting "where I was," here on Boundless.
All style problems and any instances of Graceless behavior (mine included!) aside, I do wish our "free-willie" brothers would understand and attempt rebutting real Reformed doctrines with Scripture, not just straw-man versions of it, and not simply with arguments-from-outrage (I won't accept a God Who would make people to go to Hell, etc.).
What does Scripture say about Christians taking action? It presents both a God Who is in charge and a God Who commands us to do something. Clearly He is more glorified in men and women getting out there to look for potential mates, to build education and perhaps careers, to serve in churches, to preach the Gospel to the lost -- than He would be if we just sat around waiting for some magic force to take care of all this.
The very fact that sovereign-Grace-type Christians are out there doing things even while trusting in, studying and delighting in the sovereignty of God, disproves the lie (or misunderstanding) that these doctrines only lead to Fatalism, Men-as-Automatons, etc. So again, it's strange at best to insist this is a "contradiction" between theology and actions. Obviously most Reformed Christians don't see a contradiction at all.
Meanwhile, for those of you who may think all this is mere theological nitpicking either way, I have three thoughts to consider:
1) This issue profoundly affects how we see God -- whether He is the same "size" to us as always, and somewhat tame, or the incredible, epic, mysterious-yet-understandable God Who "grows" in grandeur to us every year;
2) This issue affects whether we lean overmuch on human responsibility in evangelism, or church work, or times of deep personal crisis and struggles, or depend more on God;
3) Finally, I met the love of my life in a Predestination? Free Will? online discussion thread. You never know.
38. Megan said the following at 11:23 AM on Aug 4:
Jeremy #14 -
You shouldn't hate to point something like that out. According to his statement for every man marrying at 22, there's one marrying for the first time at 34, you can assume (scary word!) the writer is refering to the mean. You cannot infer something like that from the median.
Scott #24: Bad stats make me sad as well; I have a degree in mathematics, and it's hard to read statistics and then not wonder about how the data was actually collected.
-------
Uhm, was the article even about christian guys not taking the initiative to get married? No, read the statement, This is the elephant in the corner of almost every congregation—a shortage of young Christian men. The article is about young adults being intentional (boundless word!) about getting married early ... and the evidence about the shortage of young Christian men is supporting the main idea. How do you get "blaming guys for all this" when the article clearly never says that?
39. Cassandra said the following at 11:26 AM on Aug 4:
Jim H., I've agreed with your comments many times on these boards, but comment #27 made me very sad. I don't know if you intended to, but it sounds kind of like you think that men in their 30s that have established themselves financially are entitled to marry younger women.
I pray that more and more Christian men would pursue the women in their church. That God would open their hearts and that they would find themselves being drawn towards women they would have never thought of. Perhaps she doesn't fit what he thought was his type (in the case of Candice and Steve) perhaps she's older (in the case of Suzanne and her fiance) or perhaps she's been through a divorce with Biblical grounds.
Nothing personal, but I've seen this attitude before and I find it really disheartening.
40. Jim H. said the following at 12:03 PM on Aug 4:
Tami #30
It has been my experince that the pool of never-before married people diminishes after 30, but neither do I deny your experience. And to your point, I also know that there are several (if not many) never before married women in their 30's who post here. But I also hold to my point that 20's and 30's age groups should be combined to maximize meeting opportunities for those who don't happen to live an an area or be in a church with a large pool of never-married singles.
41. Autumn said the following at 1:20 PM on Aug 4:
Thank you for posting this!!! I'm 19, dating a wonderful Christian guy who is 19 as well and we want nothing more than to get married next year. My parents support us 100 percent, his parents not so much. I'm really tired of everyone questioning our decision making skills and our common sense. I'm smart, he's smart, we've prayed A LOT about this and we know it's right. But almost everyone I talk to says we should wait. Not because of our relationship (which is the most important thing) but because they just think it would be "better" to wait. I've done the math, counted the costs, and I know it will be hard. But I'm sure we can do it. It's really refreshing to find someone else who believes in what we want to do!! Thank you!!!
42. Scott said the following at 1:33 PM on Aug 4:
#39
From the article:
"As a result, many men postpone growing up. Even their workplace performance is suffering: earnings for 25- to 34-year-old men have fallen by 20 percent since 1971, even after accounting for inflation. No wonder young women marry men who are on average at least two years older than they. Unfortunately, a key developmental institution for men—marriage—is the very thing being postponed, thus perpetuating their adolescence."
Although they are arguing that this is because of the shortage of men in the church, I think the writer paints too harsh of a stroke regardless in this sentence. I contest that the above is a case of "correlation does not imply causation". Men as a whole I think are desiring less for a lot of other reasons than just "the ratio is in their favor"*
I think it's just really easy to point at "hey there are more women than men thus men are getting married less"**, and blame men for just sitting around on their duffs playing video games***, when the problem of men not getting married young is more complex and I would argue more a result of cultural messages being sent to men and parents/churches not discussing and modeling how great of a gift marriage truly is than primarily a result of ratio.
Oh, well. I'm missing the forest for the trees (or however the statement goes). I think that marrying young and being willing to "build a life" together is great and something that should be encouraged; I think that some of the statements in the article really distract people from the actual point!
*It's obviously situation dependent. Also, I found a link to "Plenty of Men to go Around", so if that's correct then the advantage is for the women. Of course, that would create a different problem, but unfortunately a double standard would apply to be honest, and it wouldn't be as an outrage. I hate to say it, but I feel like as a guy, it's always my fault, and if I'm having trouble getting married, then something's wrong with me. (has there ever been an article saying "there's nothing wrong with you, men"? I know there's solid guys who are trying but are striking out, even with a good batting approach. Guys *do* struggle with insecurity, you know, and I know I'm one who is really trying to overcome that in the grace of the Lord.) That's the general feel I get from most Christian publications. They're well-meaning but I think guys get painted with too strong of a negative brush, and the expectation is that they need to be great, amazing, perform extremely well on a date, and maybe one of the wonderful women who are all sitting around waiting and obviously won't reject him will give him a shot. I know they don't mean that, but it can feel like it. Sorry to get that off my chest like that, and I do like Boundless a ton, and I mean no offense toward the women. :3
**By the way, I disagree with the statistical analysis presented on the "outnumbered men less likely to marry" article. It's a 7 percent difference with a sample size of 6 for both groups. That's...a very sketchy statistical mean comparison test (normally statical significance tests are done with sample sizes of 30 or more so the Central Limit Theorem is satisfied. There'd have to be a huge difference for a significance test to say that there was a statistically significant difference. If someone's read the study and it's more robust then that, then I will obviously be wrong. ;p).
***Personal note. I really hate how video games are the cause of all ills. I would fall under the "nerd" category (I fully believe my identity is in Christ, but if I were to have a different identity it would be the former.) straight up, I enjoy video games over TV or popular music, whatever. It stings me, and it can be hard because I do have a lot of gospel conversations and sharing my faith with other people I play online with, and fall under the same nerd category. I agree that if someone spends their life just playing video games and not being productive (This is an area I'm very convicted about and I spend a lot of time seeking ways to serve the church and making my life pleasing to God. I won't pretend that suddenly I'm a master of it, but I've certainly taken huge steps every year in how I do that.), then that is obviously a bad thing. However, you can replace that with TV, "hanging out", books, anything really. Unless something at its core is detestable (ie pornography, and there are a subset of most entertainment that really is not worth listening/watching), then don't act like suddenly that one thing is suddenly "evil" or "poisoning" because it's not popular or it tends to be associated with something that's bad. It's the character and the heart, not what someone does. (I would argue that "man-childs" can and do play a lot of video games, but it isn't the video games that create the man-child. Key difference.)
Whoops, I wrote way too long and got all my grievances out. Well, thanks for being a forum where I can do that under the gospel of grace and love. :3
43. Jim H. said the following at 1:53 PM on Aug 4:
#39 Cassandra,
I don't think I conveyed a sense of entitlement that older men should marry younger women at all. Rather, I think I was explict in saying it has to do with diminished availability of the NEVER married among older singles. And my suggestion of combining the 20's and 30's groups has the added benefit of allowing younger men who desire to marry more mature women to mingle.
The availability of never before married people gets worse, indeed MUCH worse, after 40 (I know this from personal experience), so if you want to be married to another never-married in person in my case - there's two choices - marry younger (perhaps significantly younger) or marry a widow who may be significantly older.
44. Nick said the following at 3:34 PM on Aug 4:
Megan (#36), you got me. I haven't actually had the chance to read the article yet, but I heard Albert Mohler discussing it yesterday when Candace Watters called in, and the conversation took a turn to focus on young men specifically for not showing initiative or being intentional. Now, these are two people that I have a good deal of respect for. I just would like better balance to the conversation. I think it is good to encourage intention towards marriage, just acknowledge from time to time that initiation is harder than simply asking someone out, and that some men ARE being responsible in this area.
So Sarah, it was not your initial comment that caused me to think this way. In fact, your second comment is just the kind of acknowledgement that I'd like to see more often in the initentionality discussion.
45. Nick said the following at 4:20 PM on Aug 4:
As an aside, having just finished the article, I still don't like it when people quote the "single Christian women outnumber single Christian men by 2 to 1" statistic and immediately assume that's the case for the age range they are addressing, instead of an overall statistic. As Boundless reported in "Plenty of Men to Go Around," yes, SCW's outnumber SCM's, but most of that majority is among those divorced or widowed, and among never-marrieds, it's only in the oldest age range that women outnumber men (Certainly not the target audience of this article). A nitpick, yes, but also a reminder to think critically about context, whether a particular fact applies to the discussion at hand.
46. Wendy said the following at 9:13 PM on Aug 4:
I listened to Dr. Mohler's show today. I can agree that early marriage after college is good, but not everyone is fortunate enough to meet a spouse while in school. Also, not everyone grew up with good examples of marriage which results in folks not having a clue as to what a good relationship looks like. Yes, a lot of us have missed out, but at least (may as well try to find the sunny side, right?) we haven't married poorly and divorced. Also, when it comes to the 80% statistic about pre-marital sex, I do also feel insulted by this. They must not have polled my singles group. I guess that is one more "encouraging" statistic to make it even harder for abstinent singles to have any hope of marriage.
47. Dave said the following at 4:29 AM on Aug 5:
Re: 38
How do you get "blaming guys for all this" when the article clearly never says that?
See Albert Mohler's comments on the article, in which he says:
All of this points to the fact that the delay of marriage has far more to do with the patterns of life adopted by many, if not most, evangelical young men, rather than those chosen by young women.
Seems like he thought that it was part of it all.
48. Kit said the following at 9:02 AM on Aug 5:
Kari said: What I think Dr. Regnerus is trying to say is that early marriage, if you have the opportunity, should not be avoided just because you are young. With the proper Church support it can be very successful and happy.
This is not what he's saying. What he's saying is that by delaying marriage (for a variety of reasons), we are delaying the gratification of our sexual desires which are a VERY real desire and are falling into sexual sin. That the church teaches abstinence, but does not teach how to fulfill it. To be frank, if I hadn't gotten married when I did (at 25) I would not have been able to wait much longer. Self control and biblical discipline aside...they always tell you in tween youthie group briefings that when the hormones are raging, even self-control won't matter. That is true.
The truth is, althogh some might have the self-control and discipline to remaine chaste and whatever until the age of 45, that is not the norm. The fact is that your body is ready for sex after puberty, and the desire to find a mate is normal and natural. Of course, it is a valid point to say that "how much self control do you not have?" as some readers have said, but the truth is, most people, Christian or not, do not have that much control over their hormones, especially in their 20s and 30s when your body is primed and ready for sex biologically.
It makes far more sense to me to marry at a younger age (I did not feel significantly less mature a few years ago, and neither did hubby, and if either of us had the opportunity, we would have both married younger) than to postpone and fight against the natural desires that are biological until you have obtained some nebulous sense of readyness.
49. Julie said the following at 1:47 PM on Aug 5:
Wendy (46) said: "Also, not everyone grew up with good examples of marriage which results in folks not having a clue as to what a good relationship looks like. Yes, a lot of us have missed out, but at least (may as well try to find the sunny side, right?) we haven't married poorly and divorced."
Yes, that's exactly it. Singleness is hard, it's unnatural to be single so long, etc. But we are a generation called to overcome the patterns set by so many of our Baby Boomer parents. If waiting longer to marry helps us have a lifelong marriage, as opposed to a marriage that ends, it is worth it. I would argue that many of us wanted to wait and be very picky and make sure the decision was good, BECAUSE of our high view of marriage and high motivation to get it right. I wish more of us had good marriage models, I wish more people were mature at a young age, and I wish divorce was not the risk that it is. But in light of the situation our society is in, I think doing everything possible to bring the divorce rate down is more important than shortening the years of singleness.
50. Lucy Goosey said the following at 2:03 PM on Aug 5:
Perhaps, I am confused about who these people are who should marry early are.
Who are they?
Do they HAVE a boyfriend/girlfriend and are 20+ years old AND are both CHRISTIANS?
Do they NOT have a boyfriend/girlfriend and are 20+ years old and have NOT been dating and ARE CHRISTIANS?
It might be the second group that gets ticked off by those articles, because they might feel like someone is telling them to hurry up and get married so they don't mess up and become sexually active.
Perhaps, all single Christians 20+ have been put in one group. I don't know and I don't care...but I don't mean that in a bad way. I'll continue to seek God about what I should do with this life and not worry my pretty little head over statistics (Those things are gonna happen anyway...t'aint nothin' I can do about them!!!)
Also, I was talking to my ma this morning and telling her what I have been reading on Christian blogs about marriage and singleness. I told her:
"You know, ma, it seems to me that people want people to get married, but isn't there a high divorce rate even among Christians? Seems to me that if people want people to get married, then they need to make marriage look like it should look instead of talking about how singles can be sexually active. I mean, people cheat in marriages don't they? No, I'm not saying it's okay for singles to be sexually active, but marriage doesn't stop sin. People who are married aren't the epitome of not sinning anymore. No, I believe singles have a bunch of mess they need to deal with and married people have a bunch of mess they need to deal with. We all need God!"
Then I went on to talk to her about how a bunch of this promiscuous and cheating mess for singles and married folk can stem from stuff they haven't even dealt with and that the church is TOO afraid to deal with or aren't EQUIPPED to deal with.
Actually, it'd probably be like the blind leading the blind (there could be a lot of people next to each other who've been messed up in the same way, but they just don't know it but they still put on that perfect smile while crying inside)
There seems to be a lot of marriage counseling in churches, but not any other type of counseling.
In that respect, since little people grow up to have babies and get married, we need to start counseling them in their hurts and not forget those who are already grown and haven't dealt with the hurts ever before.
51. Dan (real name) said the following at 3:58 PM on Aug 5:
Now for a brief tangent before people go back to arguing statistics...
Between the age of 18 and my current age (41), I have:
1) had several girlfriends
2) been on MANY dates
3) not spent all my time playing video games
4) not spent all my weekends watching sports on TV (an angle the "blame-men-first" crowd seem to ignore)
5) been and continue to be treated for depression
6) not spent all my time "living in my mom's basement" - I never lived in my parents basement!
7) gone to college and got a 4-year degree
8) progressed economically and vocationally to the point where I am able to support a family
9) kept myself physically healthy and attractive (a point my honey will attest to
10) support for other issues in my life, including sex issues and anger issues
Summary of what I have learned:
1) My being single at 41 is not due to a lack of trying
2) you CANNOT blame video games and sports for a lack of husbands
3) having a good education and job are not guarantees that you will get married
4) being attractive physically is no guarantee you will get married
5) People still get married whether or not they "have it all together"
6) You, a Phd sociologist, a relationship writer, a blog editor, or a blog commentor, do not have all the answers to why you are not married or have children. You can do all the right things, and still not be where you think you should be. You are not God. They are not God.
7) Pat answers and finger pointing do no one any good.
8) If you THINK you would increase your chances of finding a spouse by improving things in your life (appearance, attitude, faith, etc), then DO THEM. Men may still "play video games", women may still "look only at men with fat wallets". It is up to you and the Lord to attract a spouse. You can't change all men. You can't change all women. Do what YOU can do.
9) It is not a sin to want to have a spouse. It is not a sin to ask a woman out (I had to LEARN this over time). It is not a sin to accept a date with a man who isn't perfect.
10) You may never reach that "contentment nirvana" before you get married.
Blaming the opposite sex for your lack of marriage only results in you being angry, developing a victim mentality, and will drive others away from you because they will see your negative attitude. TRUST ME. I have seen this attitude in some women I have come across and it WILL drive men away!!! As long as you continue to be angry at all men or all women, you may not get what you want. People who are successful don't spend all their time blaming others for their problems in life.
I have made mistakes, and my dates have made mistakes. It is not just men who mess up with how to pursue a spouse.
52. Jeni said the following at 4:26 PM on Aug 5:
#51 Dan. You bring up some good points. Thanks for sharing them with us.
53. Bamagirl said the following at 4:46 PM on Aug 5:
Dan.
That has got to be the best advice I heard for this topic.
Thanks I will be thinking about this as I pursuit marriage.
:D
54. BDB said the following at 5:15 PM on Aug 5:
Lucy Goosey is exactly right: married people still sin.
Elisabeth Elliot built quite a following by challenging this idea that falling into sin is inevitable. If it's inevitible for single people to fall into sin, then it's also inevitable for married people to have affairs.
We don't accept the inevitability of sin for married people, do we? Despite certain public figures who decided to "take initiative" and fly to another country to be with their soul mate?
The whole point of the Gospel is freedom from sin. To say that single Christians will inevitibly fall into sin is to say the Gospel has no power.
I find that lack of faith disturbing. It reminds me of the people Paul described in 2 Timothy 3:5:
having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
55. Dan (real name) said the following at 5:29 PM on Aug 5:
Thanks Jeni and Bamagirl (posts 52 and 53)! I would like to add that my points #3 and #4 should read "get married right away" - I am not trying to discourage those who are trying to do things to improve their chances of finding a spouse. Being 41 and single, I have heard my fill of (bad) advice as well as judgemental comments and assumptions about me. I never want to discourage those who are "older" and single and wanting to have a spouse. I am just sick and tired of the same unwarranted garbage and accusations coming from the mouths of Christians directed towards other Christians, especially in this understandably touchy subject of relationships.
56. Dan (real name) said the following at 8:21 PM on Aug 5:
BDB post #54: I second that. As I posted earlier (#34), I know MANY men (both saved and not saved) who sinned sexually AFTER marriage. Almost every married guy in the group attested that they thought marriage would "cure" their acting out.
57. Lucy Goosey said the following at 9:28 PM on Aug 5:
By the way, I think its fine that people get married WHENEVER they do...whether young or older. I believe that God can do anything with us at any point in our lives.
Perhaps there are things that we do that keep it from happening earlier, but he is still faithful to us.
A lot of the arguments via the article seems to be people doing a lot of defending themselves about the places they are in their lives (earlier marriage, later marriage, education then marriage, single and happy, single and unhappy, etc.) rather than God being the one who guides us to where He wants us to be.
Seriously, I'm tired of people feeling they have to defend their state where God has them. Just like I'm tired of stay-at-home moms feeling like they have to defend that or working moms feeling they have to defend that.
It just becomes a play against each other. It just becomes us arguing back and forth and missing out on a faithful God.
58. Lucy Goosey said the following at 9:37 PM on Aug 5:
Just a thought: In Christiandom...we seem to know about everyone else's calling but our own...and when we do find it...we spin time judging people for what they don't know rather than teaching them and leading, most importantly, by example...
I'm a teacher...and they say...EVERY child wants to be taught, no matter how bad they act...we just need good teachers...
Thankfully, God is the ultimate teacher and sent Jesus to MODEL for us and left us to do the same for each other.
59. Lucy Goosey said the following at 10:54 AM on Aug 6:
As for the "Case For Early Marriage"...some (even Christians who champion early marriage based on a list of statistics about fertility and much more) may think that early marriage is exempt from the call of God on one's life. Just like any other path in life, many people get married without seeking God. I'm sure there are early marriages and older marriages in which people have not sought God for.
Do I disdain "early marriage"?
No, I disdain when man forgets that God can make a barren woman pregnant, an old woman bare children, and much more than I could possibly write here.
Yes...there are statistics that say how rare things can be. But weren't many things rare in the Bible? Aren't many things rare today? I'm wondering if, for these times we need to have faith for our own lives and not lean on statistics as our faith.
As a single, I have to have faith that God can still work something out for me by way of marital status despite statistics: large number of single women + large number of black single women + some people don't prefer black women + ratio of Christian women to Christian men. (Who are we supposed to marry early again?...looks like a fight to me!!!)
The statistics are looking good for women who have children young...but what for the woman who is having trouble having children? She's going to have to have faith...just like she hopefully had to receive her husband (not just thinking about the concept of "Early Marriage.")
I honestly wonder what the conversation would be between a group of Christians who married earlier vs. those who married older. Face to face, that is...
Would one group say their circumstance was more Godlier?...just a thought!!!
60. Megan said the following at 1:26 PM on Aug 6:
Nick, Dave, and possibly Scott:
While the article's first evidence comes from lopsides ratios of men:women, there are other reasons given - read the last 4 (of 7, meaning atleast half and really, more) pages of the article. These other examples are misconceptions among Christians; generally, these misconceptions are adapted from views that the world has emphasized.
Does the article not place an emphasis on the following contributing reasons that young evangelicals are marrying late?:
Christian practical ethics about marriage—not the ones expounded on in books, but the ones we actually exhibit—have become a nebulous hodgepodge of pragmatic norms and romantic imperatives, few of which resemble anything biblical. Unfortunately, many Christians cannot tell the difference.
As we finally climb toward multigenerational economic success, we advise our children to finish their education, to launch their careers, and to become financially independent, since dependence is weakness.
While I'm sure that young Christian men are part of the problem (since they are the initiators), and there's sufficient speculation and reasoning to come to that conclusion, it may be beneficial to look at young Christian women. Why? Because we go to college, we want a career (at least prior to marriage and children - ie teaching, nursing, etc), we want to be financially stable when we're concerned if a man will marry us in the near future. These things delay the actually "getting hitched" deal for women.
I will say this: because I have no marriage prospects right now, I'm going back to grad school. Granted it's an online MBA program offered by my alma mater, it's still an investment of time because I work full time and will now be "going back" to school. Will this decision delay getting married? I don't know.
Part of me just really likes to play the devil's advocate in discussions posted on Boundless, and yes, I'm probably doing a little bit of that here. But honestly, I do not agree the article is saying that the entire blame rests on young Christian men.
61. Lucy Goosey said the following at 10:08 PM on Aug 6:
I will accept the "pursuit of degree/career made this woman miss marriage" ideology if all the married women didn't go.
If we were to use that argument, we'd have to find the variable that makes the difference between those who went to college and got married young vs. those who went to college and still aren't married.
I believe there are a lot more things than that that can keep people from getting married:
--hurts from childhood abuse and how that causes people not to be able to relate, in a Godly manner at least, to the opposite sex
--preferences based on race or even within a race (mostly based on ignorance--thinking someone is too dark...or too pale for his/her taste...or too ghetto...or too white...basing it on stereotypes whilest not even getting to know the person...or even thinking that the world is ONLY black OR white)
--Perhaps God wanted to use you somewhere else before marriage
--Perhaps God has placed a different calling upon your heart and desire that is not marriage
Note: Just want to throw this out there. I'm a black woman. And there is a worldly idea that I've found exists. Some say black men get self conscious if they are with a white woman in front of a black woman. This black woman does not care about that. My only hope for any couple, whether they are of the same race or different...is that they honor Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. If you believe that it is even wrong for Christians of different races to mix...then I believe you HATE your brother/sister.
--ratio of women to men
--SO MUCH more!
Yes...marriage is GOOD!!!
But, a lot of mess in people's lives from the womb to marriage is not being dealt with...and oftentimes...not within the church.
Must things only be dealt with in marriage??? Why are there so many divorces and what are the underlying reasons for them???
This is a sinful world and it's not gonna be a happy-go-lucky get married young kind of deal, especially if we aren't gonna deal with stuff.
What's the point of PRE-Marital counseling (hence the prefix) before marriage if people are just gonna "GROW TOGETHER" during marriage. Yes...this is NOT HERESY...I still believe that marriage will help people grow together.
If pre-marital counseling is needed before marriage, then people need to deal with other stuff along the way during their single life.
Praise the Lord for those who have never suffered any type of abuse and for those who have allowed God to heal them!