Soul-Mate-Ism
by Motte Brown on 06/04/2009 at 3:13 PM
Do you believe you will find that one unique person on the planet who "completes" you? If so, you may be a soul-mate-ist, someone who believes in soul-mate-ism, which Dr. Scott Stanley defines in today's Boundless article as:
The belief that you will find in a mate the one unique person on the planet who understands your deepest desires and fears, accepts all of who you are unconditionally and who becomes joined to you, making one complete whole in mind, body and soul. The power of this type of relationship is so great that you will know fully and rapidly when you find "the one." Further, if you have not married "the one," you should move on.
If this describes you, be warned that there may be consequences as you pursue marriage. As Dr. Stanley says, any unrealistic expectation that conveys some sort of heavenly connection will make earthbound relationships more difficult.
1. Rachael said the following at 3:43 PM on Jun 4:
We cannot marry someone who will perfectly complete or fulfill our longings.
But, if we are married to one person our whole entire lives, can't that one person be 'the one' even if we have the capacity to be 'compatible' with many?
Whoever we end up with is 'ours' to borrow (hopefully the person is 'owned' by God).
Whoever we end up with IS our 'one', our soul mate, even though we and our soul mate fall short and will never completely satisify the other.
2. Ronnica said the following at 3:56 PM on Jun 4:
I don't believe in "The One." Well, until you're married, and they're automatically it. Process of elimination of sorts. (wow, don't I sound like a romantic?)
I think my favorite fictional account of this type of thinking is Sense and Sensibility...what happens if the one you thought was "the one" chooses someone else?
3. BDB said the following at 3:56 PM on Jun 4:
There is another definition. One that C.S. Lewis experienced (and wrote about in The Four Loves). It was also highlighted in the movie, Good Will Hunting.
It is the opposite definition as the one presented in the article. Instead, a soul mate is the person who challenges you and forces you to grow.
As Lewis writes, the basis of this kind of relatioship rises when two people are able to see the same truth, such as the two hunters that see the deer as beautiful in addition to being food. But also key are the skills and knowledge that come from being fellow travelers on he same journey, able to see the strengths and weaknesses of the other. Warriors fight together, cooks cook together, Christians pray together, etc.
Reading biographies of C.S. Lewis, this is precisely what happened. The specific moment was when his future wife abruptly pointed out that he had surrounded himself with people who were too weak to challenge him. The biographers suggest that he found this annoying at first - but eventually faced the reality that it was true.
Indeed, he was a great author and an expert of Medieval literature. Her master's degree was in English. It took someone with substantial strength, in his field, to get his attention - and challenge him to grow in new ways. And indeed, her skills were plenty adequate to be his helpmeet in his writing. Biographies suggest her influence was felt strongly in Surprised by Joy, The Four Loves, and A Grief Observed.
When I hear from someone about their relationship break-up because, "He wanted to change me!" I always wonder if they just told their soul mate to pound sand.
4. skeeter said the following at 4:08 PM on Jun 4:
I remember asking my Dad how he knew Mom was "the one." I was somewhat shocked to hear him say, "Your mom and I have been married for 25 years. Sometime between when we met and now, yeah, she's the one."
But after 11 years of marriage myself, I think more and more that you become the one for your spouse.
5. Kaley said the following at 4:16 PM on Jun 4:
I think Skeeter's parents are wise!!
6. Rachael said the following at 4:28 PM on Jun 4:
" I think more and more that you become the one for your spouse. "
I like that.
7. DEH said the following at 4:49 PM on Jun 4:
I just wanted to second (third, etc.) the above comments, especially skeeter (4): "You become the one for your spouse."
A large part of my goal as a married woman is to become the wife my husband needs (and desires) me to be. May I spend the rest of my life (Lord willing) becoming his "soul mate" more and more each day.
8. Keith said the following at 5:27 PM on Jun 4:
Two Thoughts:
Firstly, it is foolish for anyone to believe that another human being will be able to satisfy their deepest emotional longings. There is a place in our hearts that only God was meant to fill. Relying on other people for our emotional well being is dangerous, as no human is as reliable, faithful, or loving as God. The ideal marriage isn't one where two people need each other; it is the one where both people are already overflowing with God's love for them and generously spill over into each other's lives.
As for the question of if there is "one" for us, I would have to say there is. In Mathew 19: 1-11, where Jesus talks about marriage and divorce, He seems to imply that matches are made by God Himself (verse 6). There are numerous other references in the Bible where God has a hand in bringing couples together, and if God has a single will, then logically there can only be one person, one soul mate for each of us to marry.
Therefore there is nothing wrong therefore with someone delaying marriage if they truly feel that they haven't met the one that God has for them. In fact, to marry someone who God never meant for you is as foolish as when Abraham slept with Hagar because he refused to wait for God's promised son to come through Sarah. Hagar's descendants became the Arabs, who have been causing trouble for the Jews to this very day. Deviating from God's will for your life can have very serious consequences.
9. Cassandra said the following at 6:10 PM on Jun 4:
Questioning the myth of Soul Mates is one of the discussions I really appreciate from Boundless. In fact, I think it was here where I first encountered the neologism "soulmateism".
I have two primary concerns with soulmateism, both of them relate to ways in which it undermines marriage. The first is that I'm afraid men and women won't pursue marriage because they're expecting a sign from God that someone is "the one." I think there may be one person that God has "picked" for us, or there may be several possible people who we could be married to.
The second is that I'm afraid that soulmateism has contributed to a large number of divorces, because according to the myth of soul mates, your soul mate is supposed to make you live happily ever after, so if you're not perfectly happy, you must have married "the wrong person." The reality is that we're all the wrong person, because we're all sinners, and that marriage is designed for us to become holy, not happy. (Is that a Gary Thomas quote?)
If Jack could feel unsafe and fear rejection or criticism in his relationship with Sandy, on any substantial level, then maybe she really was not his true soul mate.
Just recapitulating what the article said, but thanks, good article. Soulmateism is alive and well today in the Christian church. Thanks again for your counter-cultural ministry, Boundless.
As Dr. Stanley says, any unrealistic expectation that conveys some sort of heavenly connection will make earthbound relationships more difficult.
This raises a really good question. Is God a divine matchmaker, or is he leaving it up to us to use the Bible and good judgement to pick our own spouses?
10. Kelly said the following at 6:27 PM on Jun 4:
When I was younger, I used to dream of a soulmate. Having my "one true love" break up with me at age 23 cured me of that notion! ;)
These days, I long for someone to talk to. A best friend, who'd like to hear about my day when I come home. Someone who can tell me about his day and share the ups and downs.
Doesn't seem like too much to ask, does it? Why do we overcomplicate marriage?
11. Keb said the following at 6:30 PM on Jun 4:
I don't believe in just one soul mate--I think it's something you have to work at. But, on the other hand, there's a sort of hopefulness in the idea that there is at least one person out there intended for you. If there isn't...well, it's hard to hold out hope that someone will just randomly pick you, you know?
12. rachel said the following at 8:56 PM on Jun 4:
I married the perfect man for me, but because we're both fallen creatures, we don't perfectly fulfill each other. Instead of "completing" me, he forces me to grow. He does, however, comfort me in the midst of the challenges and difficulties we face in our marriage, within ourselves, and in our various roles, as parents, Christians, workers, etc. We shelter each other, we are learning to love each other, and at our best, we remind each other of the true Home waiting for us.
13. Sasha said the following at 9:21 PM on Jun 4:
Wrapped up in the "soul mate" philosophy is the belief that the point of marriage is essentially selfish: I'm out there looking for the person who is going to make me feel 'complete' and 'happy' and all those other warm fuzzy feelings. And if those feelings wear off someday (as they are bound to do), then it means I didn't marry my soul mate...oops! I fault this philosophy (especially as it is constantly reiterated in popular films and novels) as a large-scale contributor to the divorce epidemic. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I tend to think it's one of the most dangerous relationship philosophies circling these days.
14. Janice said the following at 9:50 PM on Jun 4:
I like the way BDB thinks...maybe he/she should be a guest blogger for Boundless? Always like his/her comments!!
15. Janice said the following at 9:55 PM on Jun 4:
And just for the record, this whole soul mate business is mishigas...and totally UN-biblical.
16. ARM said the following at 9:56 PM on Jun 4:
We are all one body of many parts in Christ - a marriage relationship is just one of many connections that God creates in our life, and we need ALL of these relationships to truly live in the fullness that Jesus calls us to. If we seek one soulmate in marriage to be our entire solution, we will miss all of the other soulmates out there that God has connected us to to fill the rest of our needs - and we, in turn, will be unable to bring ourselves to relationships in the body of Christ if we isolate ourselves in one, and those people will be missing a part that they needed. Ultimately, we should find our completion in Christ, and he will send us the people (marriage, friends, family) who will each have their part to fill what we need in our lives.
17. Peter Cheung said the following at 10:11 PM on Jun 4:
Answering the question - I do believe one will find that one unique person on the planet who "completes" he/she? I have found such a person - He's Jesus Christ.
When I was young I always try to be satisfy through searching for someone who would love me and value me more than anything else in the world. It was my driving force - I daydream about it, I make decision to maximize that opportunity and I out my hope in it. All these though, have only given me anger, jealously, hopelessness and bitterness. It was like a downward spiral.
But encountering Jesus was an amazing story. When I was 9 I heard about "there's no greater love than this: A man gives his life for a friend". Later on, I found out that is from the Bible (John 15:13). Invited by a friend, I started attending church and explore Jesus by reading the Bible. And through doing so I realized that the purpose for ones life is to love God and Jesus and be loved by them. He has proved how he love us - dying in our place when we were still unworthy (Romans 5:8). One day, I decided to follow Jesus and accepted his love.
Life has been changing ever since. To be honest, from time to time I still have these cravings for love and intimacy, but knowing how Jesus has loved me keeps me away from the downward spiral. He has become the deepest longing - He has made me "complete".
18. Tami said the following at 11:01 PM on Jun 4:
BDB wrote:
"When I hear from someone about their relationship break-up because, 'He wanted to change me!' I always wonder if they just told their soul mate to pound sand."
Can you explain "pound sand"? Does that basically mean -- "go away, don't bother me"?
19. Leah said the following at 11:43 PM on Jun 4:
I guess it depends on your definition of "soul mate". Perhaps you could potentially have dozens of soul-mates :P Isn't a best friend a "soul mate" of sorts? Anyway, as for "the one"... "the one" is the one you marry. There's no pre-ordained, predestined, forechosen "one" for you. God gave us certain guidelines for choosing a spouse (human, opposite sex, Christian)... and after that, it's our own decision :)
20. Jeffrey Whiting said the following at 6:45 AM on Jun 5:
The search for a "soul-mate" is a foolish, short-sighted endeavor for many reasons.
It is foolish because searching for a completely fulfilling "relationship" is like looking for the fictitious fountain of youth and short-sighted because it neglects the potentials you could have chosen if you weren't distracted by the specter of a "soul-mate".
It defies reason, the circumstances of life and the uncertain knowledge we have about ourselves and others: you cannot know how you will develop, how your partner will develop - and most importantly - how the two of you together will develop.
And my last remark would be to point out that it exalts the personal aspects of the married state above its obligations. However, the Church teaches on the contrary that marriage is a duty that we are commanded to persevere in without pretense to the conditions of the relationship.
In the final analysis the philosophy of "soul-mates" comes from our culture's worship of love for its own sake. It would wise for us young adults to consider the observation of Denis de Rougemont on the subject: "Love ceases to be a demon when it ceases to be a god."
21. Elisabeth K said the following at 7:25 AM on Jun 5:
This reminds me of Fiddler on the Roof and the song "Do You Love Me?" Even arranged marriages can work if you hold to the theory that the person you marry becomes "the one."
22. Holly said the following at 8:04 AM on Jun 5:
Ditto, ditto, ditto the above posts. Just in 9 months of marriage I know I've changed (for the better) according to God's will for my life as a wife and making specific sacrifices for my husband.
I totally agree that you "become the one" for your spouse over time.
23. obewan said the following at 8:07 AM on Jun 5:
I think soul-mates is the standard to pursue. It may take a lifetime to get there, but what else could be better?
I would not say that there is only ONE potential soul-mate. There might be several people who could fit that description. However, after being married and growing in their love for each other with the one spouse for a lifetime criteria, they would become the ONLY soulmate.
The proposition of a lifetime married to someone without that kind of love does not appeal to me at all though. Maybe I am a hopeless romantic and that is why I am not married yet.
24. IMO said the following at 9:08 AM on Jun 5:
How about the term, 'perfect fit'?
My husband and I use that to describe each other. And that also pertains to our weaknesses and strengths in each other. That way, we spurn each other to grow in Christ and in everyday matters.
25. Ashley Harris said the following at 9:15 AM on Jun 5:
IMO said:
"...And that also pertains to our weaknesses and strengths in each other. That way, we spurn each other to grow in Christ and in everyday matters."
I agree! I am never more convinced that my fiance is my "sole mate" than when his personality/sin/tendencies bring out my sinfulness and weakness. It so nice when our strengths compliment but so much more sanctifying when our weaknesses refine.
26. kaj said the following at 9:29 AM on Jun 5:
So, between Rachel and Leah, who was the one "God intended for" Jacob?
And of David's multiple wives and concubines, who was "the one" for him? Michal had no children. Solomon, who was to be an ancestor of Jesus, was the son of Bathsheba...and we all know how she and David met.
And what about someone, say, Elisabeth Elliott, who has more than one husband on "biblical grounds?" Does that mean God planned for her to have three husbands?
27. Tami said the following at 9:59 AM on Jun 5:
Another problem with the "soul mate" notion: It reinforces the whole false idea that you're "incomplete" without another person.
We are relational people, and are designed for relationship. But you -- as an individual -- are not "half a person" until that "special someone" comes along.
And also the whole "soul mate" notion also sort of implies that people without a "significant other" are lacking.
I too think this is different from what IMO describes as a "perfect fit." That implies you're well-matched. (And I think that's all some people mean when they say they married their "soul mate.")
28. mary kate said the following at 10:00 AM on Jun 5:
i think keith, #8, got it right. god makes matches. god guides people together. you can fight him, or you can try to do it on your own, or you can go with it.
how can i believe that the god of the universe, who knit me together in my mother's womb, and created all of my intricate details that make me uniquely me, and has told me he has a hope and a plan just for me, has basically told me to just marry anybody who loves Him? i mean, yeah, it might be ok, but i think he wants more than ok for all of us. not to say that we never have trials/hard times/challenges, but, i'm with keith on this one.
i have to believe that god is guiding me toward someone specific. if i miss that person, or he dies, or whatever, then there might be someone else. he's god. he can take care of things like that (e.g. elisabeth elliot)
my other question.... what of all the people who, when asked, 'how did you know he/she was the one?' say 'oh, we just knew.' many of the solid, loving, awesome christian couples i know say this. i think they have a peace with their mate that comes from knowing a)they're in god's will; this marriage is a choice/union He approves of, b)this person pushes them to grow in many ways, and to love god more, and c)there's mutual chemistry/ attraction.
29. Kyle said the following at 10:08 AM on Jun 5:
Intriguing subject. In the pursuit of a mate, I find it more helpful to ask for direction rather than look for signs. It's easy to chase the sparks but never learn how to fuel a fire. The "signs and wonders" that accompany "the one" are no substitute for prayer, wise counsel and good decision-making. I think the soul mate philosophy as espoused by society at large seeks to meet a legitimate need through invalid means. Through relationship with God, we as Christians can grow in discernment and wisdom, and thus become empowered to use those tools to explore our possibilities for a mate.
Being a biologist by training, I like to use the enzyme model as an analogy for finding our soul's mate. Please excuse the following nerd moment. An enzyme enables a chemical reaction to happen more rapidly. It does this by binding to a substrate, which is a material that will undergo a reaction. The substrate and the enzyme are made to fit one another, though they don't always fit perfectly. However, changes in temperature, pH and other factors can allow the enzyme to adapt to the substrate, thus allowing a reaction to occur. The substrate chemically changes into new products.
In so many ways, the pursuit of marriage is the result of a profound reaction between people who, despite imperfections and differences, choose to embrace the conditions that enable their souls to be knit together by love. The work of building relationship cannot be underestimated, and many often believe that the discovery of the soul's mate means the work is over. On the contrary, it only just begins. The key seems to be finding one with whom you can be a co-laborer, seeking after the heart of God and sharpening one another in the process. Indeed, when a substrate meets an enzyme, it catalyzes a reaction that brings about unique products. Such reactions can occur with many people, but there is something to be said for committing to one person and choosing to work towards a beautiful end. The willingness to be transformed by a God-centered, powerful, affirming relationship allows for beautiful possibilities, and I certainly await mine.
30. Rachael said the following at 10:49 AM on Jun 5:
Kaj,
One spouse at a time while the other spouse is living. It's okay to remarry after the person's death.
And I'm under the impression that remarrying may be okay in another case(s) but I'm unsure.
As for polygamy. Just because it happened don't assume it was a good thing.
God can work through sin and use it in His plan. But He is not sinful at all.
It's interesting.
31. Rachael said the following at 10:51 AM on Jun 5:
And I think soul mates can be soul mates even if they're not really soul mates in the 'great match' sense...
32. Pak said the following at 11:15 AM on Jun 5:
29 Kyle
*thumbs up*
33. BDB said the following at 11:30 AM on Jun 5:
Tami (#18) wrote:
>>Can you explain "pound sand"? Does that basically mean -- "go away, don't bother me"?<<
Yep. That's a term my old boss used all the time. Usually when some other executive wanted us to do something that was a waste of time or an irrelevant distraction.
In context:
"The VP of Marketing wants us to do X."
"Tell him to pound sand."
He was from Iowa. I found this in the Urban Dictionary:
"The origin of the expression go pound sand is from a longer expression, not to know (have enough sense to) pound sand down a rathole. Filling rat holes with sand is menial work, and telling someone to pound sand down a hole is like telling them to go fly a kite. The expression dates to at least 1912 and is common in the midwestern United States."
34. BDB said the following at 11:59 AM on Jun 5:
kaj (#26) wrote:
>>And what about someone, say, Elisabeth Elliott, who has more than one husband on "biblical grounds?" Does that mean God planned for her to have three husbands?<<
She's written about this - and it might have been in response to someone's question about "one" specific person. She has lost two husbands to death, which is why she is so well qualified to write on subjects like loss, suffering and loneliness.
And interestingly enough, her 3rd husband's health has allowed him to be in a position to handle much of her correspondence - she gets tons of letters each year. A good fit.
And, amusingly, he has written about how sometimes he has to respond to being addressed as "Mr. Elisabeth Elliot" instead of "Mr. Lars Gren."
35. Jo said the following at 12:10 PM on Jun 5:
I largely agree that there isn't one perfect person for each of us, but I don't think it's a totally black and white issue. Just as I think some people have a calling to a particular career, or place, or mission, I think some couples are designed to be together. But all of those examples are the exception and not the rule. Most of us could be happy and useful in many different jobs or places, and most of us could be matched with many different people.
For example, Rachel and Isaac were clearly ordained by God, but there are many other couples (Abraham and Sarah, Elizabeth and Zechariah, even Mary and Joseph), who have no 'soul mate' story that we know of. So I think it's something that some of us will experience, but none of us should expect.
To those who say a God who has a plan must ordain our spouse, I used to think like that, and it's an attractive idea. But I think we focus too much on circumstances. We assume that God's master plan will have signposts like, "Graduates University - Begins Career - Gets Married - Has Baby - Moves House", when maybe it's more along the lines of, "Grows In Faith - Learns Humility - Becomes Kinder - Helps Others", you know?
I think God is much more interested in developing us as people, and maybe there are lots of different situations that could aid that development. I do think He sometimes guides us very specifically, but I don't think He always does. I think it's far more exciting and Biblical to think of it as a partnership where we do have some freedom and not everything is set in stone.
36. Jeffrey Whiting said the following at 1:06 PM on Jun 5:
#28: are you suggesting God "picks" out your spouse?
While I don't see anything against faith or religion in that belief I would hasten to add it can certainly not be a universal teaching.
In fact, against that view I would point out the Biblical narrative a) does not promise God will supply special guidance concerning who Christians are to marry but only that b) those who marry should do so "in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 7), e.g. must be a believer.
It is one thing to pray to the Holy Spirit to request wisdom to make a good decision, but it is another thing altogether to expect Him to make the decision for you!
Further, the point of view that contorts Providence into some kind of divining rod to find "God's choice" in decision making has some very serious problems both theologically and practically.
In this particular case, its the philosophy of "soulmateism" rewrapped in pious Christian language.
37. Annie said the following at 1:48 PM on Jun 5:
My boyfriend and I are facing this issue right now - I see us as extremely compatible and fulfilling all the Godly characteristics for a marriage partner. He feels there is some sort of connection missing - he wants to know undoubtably that his future spouse will have that close connection and be his best friend.
I agree that I want my spouse to be my best friend (and my boyfriend is a very very close friend, I would even call him "best") but for me, the overall picture of our relationship sets us up fantastically for marriage.
I'm the first girl he's ever dated and I've had a lot of dating experience, so maybe that plays into it. (I'm 24, he's 27.) He's also extremely analytical and scientific minded - I think he wants to meet his marriage criteria 100% perfectly!
We are very very similar people, we have many common interests, we're running the same direction in life, we respect each other greatly and are very attracted to each other. We've also challenged each other quite a bit in this relationship and helped each other grow. For me, what more could you want!?!
Reading Steve Watter's article about his pre-marriage relationship with Candace reminded me a bit of my boyfriend's mindset. I think getting a mentor counple would be a great step for us.
What should I do? How long should I stick around waiting for him or decide if we have a good enough connection? (Our first date was 6 months ago, we met online.)
Thanks for reading!
38. Annie said the following at 1:49 PM on Jun 5:
BDB - would you mind giving me your feedback on my situation?
I've read your posts for a couple years now and greatly respect your insight.
Thanks :)
39. BDB said the following at 1:55 PM on Jun 5:
As for there being "only one," consider the math:
There are 6 Billion people in the world.
Even if you're a one in a million kind of guy, there are still 3000 guys, just like you.
40. Kari said the following at 2:02 PM on Jun 5:
I might very well be crazy-- but if I dated or married someone that I never had to work things out with (hardly ever had to make a compromise or work through opposing ideas or opinions) I would be misreable. I think the idea of a soul mate is inherantly the idea that conflict will be absent, and that the absence of conflict will mean harmonious connectedness.
I think that is SO far from the truth. How can you know and love someone deeply without running into differences and sharpening each other?
41. Samantha said the following at 2:12 PM on Jun 5:
Jesus will NEVER "complete me". He wasn't meant to. God created men as incomplete without women and the sole purpose women were brought to earth was to be helpers of men.
I have faith that God will find my soul-mate. After all IF you believe in the Bible, you believe that God offers guidence in ALL parts of life. If you pray boldy for God to find you a spouse, he will.
As for Jesus, He is a never-ending sacrifice. He is our connection to God because He is God. He was never meant to substitute for human interaction.
42. IMO said the following at 2:19 PM on Jun 5:
"As for Jesus, He is a never-ending sacrifice"
What do you mean?
This sounds like a Catholic teaching to me. He paid for our sins once and for all. He is NOT a never-ending sacrifice.
43. BDB said the following at 3:39 PM on Jun 5:
Annie (#38) wrote:
>>BDB - would you mind giving me your feedback on my situation?<<
Uh-oh. I'm likely to get myself into trouble. Disclaimer: the opinions in this comment do not necessarily reflect those of FOTF, it's officers or directors...etc...etc...
If an analytical guy came to me with his charts mapping out compatibility, the book I'd recommend is Personality Plus by Florence Littauer. It uses a lot of funny stories that beautifully capture what happens when different personality styles interact, and it does so from a Christian perspective.
The reality is that an analytical, scientific mind will always be able to perceive some differences. But life is going to change over time, so the decision to stick together no matter what is far more important than being an exact match when you start out. The shared experiences through life become the material the friendship is built with.
My grandparent's 70th anniversary is this weekend. They STIL have differences in how they see the world. And they both have keen minds. But they started with spiritual compatibility and a common passion for education. Then they worked on the differences.
For example, he snuck her into his university classes. She was a nursing student and wanted to see the medical explanation in his speech classes. They got caught because the professor asked EVERYONE to come to the podium and try to identify the vocal cords and other parts that shaped speech. My grandmother, being a nursing student, was the only one who got it right. "Oh - who are you!"
They went on to lobby the state legislature on education. She was a nurse, but also heavily involved with Extension Homemakers, training young women to be good homemakers when they didn't have the opportunity to do so at home. He was an educator. Their passon for education was shared, but it expressed itself in different ways.
As one of my other scientifically-minded college friends put it, "Why would you want it to be the same?" She did marry a guy who she met in Biology class. The two of them blew the curve in ever class - I remember Genetics where half the class failed, I passed with a D...and they both got A's by studying together. She's a hospice nurse and he ended up getting his MBA and works as a banker. But they started as Biology students both wanting to be doctors. The scientific minds are similar, but they ended up in very different types of work.
The analytical framework I'd offer is:
WORK-Do you work the same - similar levels of responsibility, make a good team when volunteering together?
PLAY-Both like to travel? Or does one like to drink and party each weekend, and the other hates it?
WORSHIP-Reasonably compatible theologies? Does one of you insist on the "L" and TULIP and the other wonders what flowers have to do with anything? Comfortable going to the same church?
THINK-Able to discuss ideas in an effective way? And here, an analytical needs to make allowances. If politics is a passion, do you BOTH need to be active working for candidates for office? Is it enough to both be pro-Life on your facebook page? Are you willing to go with them to the occasional speech in a field they are passionate about, even if it bores you to tears? Is he willing to attend ballet with you in exchange? (Ballet can be analyzed, by the way - it's like a martial art.)
Anyway, I think it's plenty to have one degree in common. That provides an excellent foundation for communication. My Biology friends, for example, slip back into Biology examples when they're trying to explain something new to me, because we have that background in common. But none of us are Biologists.
As for how long to wait, Elisabeth Elliot waited 5 years for a proposal and writes that she'd never tell anyone else to do that unless they were completely convinced that was what God was directing them to do. Her book, Passion and Purity discusses that journey. And the painful waiting.
Was that too much information? :D
44. Samantha said the following at 3:57 PM on Jun 5:
IMO (42, I LOVE having the numbers!!) the Catholics were the first Christians.
Jesus is a never ending sacrifice. Unlike sacrifices in the Torah where animals had to be sacrifice for every sin, when someone accepts Jesus He takes all of their sins for them, now and forever.
This is not a pass to do whatever you want. If someone truly accepts Jesus they will do their best to not sin and will repent when they sin. This is what I mean by "never-ending sacrifice."
I don't know what you mean by "Catholic teaching" because, as I stated above, Catholics are Christians.
45. Ted Slater said the following at 4:04 PM on Jun 5:
Samantha (#44) -- I appreciate your clarification to IMO's (#42) question.
That said, I'd rather we not discuss denominational distinctions right now, such as the Roman Catholic understanding of "sacrifice" vs. Evangelical understanding of "sacrifice," or whether Roman Catholics were the "first Christians." That kind of discussion could easily derail this conversation. Thanks!
46. BDB said the following at 4:13 PM on Jun 5:
Annie (#37) wrote:
>>I'm the first girl he's ever dated and I've had a lot of dating experience, so maybe that plays into it. (I'm 24, he's 27.)<<
I wanted to respond to this part specifically.
My guess is that he's spent 10 years analyzing the other relationships around him. Perhaps he's observing to try and understand what causes divorce.
If he hasn't done so already, what he needs to do it go talk to people with successful marriages and ask them why they've been successful.
If a "mentor couple" is a little too intentional, another way to do this is to join an adult Bible study together, rather than just the young-adults study. He will observe things watching couples who've been married 20+ years that he will never realize hanging out with the young adults single's group.
Example: couples who stay married tend to always, always, always speak repsectfully of their spouse in public. Even if they're having a major disagreement about how to handle a certain situation, when they ask for prayer on the situation, they can discipline themselves to ask for "wisdom and the right words" rather than "for him to stop being an idiot."
I know lots of single people, whether never-married or divorced, who for some reason think it's attractive to viciously tear down their ex in public. Venomous disrespect is a red flag, waving vigorously...
47. Sarah P. said the following at 4:29 PM on Jun 5:
I think believing that God will lead you to a person He wants you to marry is quite different from believing in a soul mate who will love with the kind of love only God can give. I believe that God will lead me to my future spouse, although I am quite certain, based on experience, that I will be surprised at the shape the leading takes and that the results will not be quite what I anticipate. Even so, I know that this person will not be perfect. Nor do I have to be perfect. It is through our holes that God's light shines.
48. Samantha said the following at 4:44 PM on Jun 5:
Ted (45), thank you for understanding and for letting me clarify what I meant :-)
49. Adam T. said the following at 5:10 PM on Jun 5:
I'm a bit late, so it may be that no one will even read this, but it's worth putting out there.
J.R.R. Tolkien used to write letters to his son, Michael. Here's an excerpt from one (written in 1941):
"Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes: in the sense that almost certainly (in a more perfect world, or even with a little more care in this very imperfect one) both partners might be found more suitable mates. But the real soul-mate is the one you are actually married to."
I think he's right.
50. Rachael said the following at 6:08 PM on Jun 5:
re: spouses as best friends
That sounds so nice, doesn't it? And that probably happens for many.
I think premarriage, my ideal would have been like having a best friend and then oh - on the same day we realized we're in love each other; oh my! The one.
But I wonder if the best friend concept can lead to unfair subconscious expectations and soul-mateish/completing/fulfillment seeking desires. When one is single, dream away (to an extent). Choose who you want, who you feel is the right person.
If one doesn't feel a special spark in a relationship, I don't know. Maybe it should be enough to break it off - that's between the couple and God.
Is my husband my best friend?
....Do I HAVE to have a 'best friend'? Among guys, of COURSE he is.
He's mine, to borrow. No one else is mine to borrow.
Here's an example of how I feel my husband and I don't have a complete heart connection on something. I think there is some level of disconnect between theological values between us. He might be a more mainstream Christian than me. Will our views eventually become more similar? Maybe, maybe not. It's not like we're polar opposites - I just feel there's some difference. There must be some level of difference between everyone - I know that. Still, though, I bring up this example of how we aren't exactly eye-to-eye ----not that best friends have to be eye-to-eye---but still, it's my example.
I guess...the people we choose to marry are special. But they don't necessarily HAVE to be the spouse's best friend, in my opinion.
51. Rachael said the following at 6:13 PM on Jun 5:
I wrote: "But they don't necessarily HAVE to be the spouse's best friend, in my opinion"
But that doesn't sound very good...
Of course, the spouses are each other's 'extreme specials'.
But I guess...I just would like some people to be aware that the spouse doesn't necessarily have to fulfill emotional expectations or meet eye-to-eye on a heart connection level on all aspects....
is that vague enough?
52. Carol said the following at 10:44 PM on Jun 5:
Stressing out about marrying the "right" person is a lack of faith, in my opinion. If I believe that God loves me, I would believe that He would let me know when the right person comes along. And I'm not talking about a voice from heaven; I mean things like peace, a consensus from others that this is the right person, a fitting of life plans and personalities, etc.
I require certain characteristics in a potential husband (like sharing the same denomination, faithful church attendance, etc.), but beyond that, I am flexible. If a man fits my standards, our personalities click, and I have God's peace about the relationship, then yay! I would be happy to marry him.
This high standard that keeps us from making choices isn't limited to spouses. Check out The Paradox of Choice, by Barry Schwartz. Americans think we can find the perfect _________ (fill in the blank), and so we waste our time comparing all the choices, instead of being happy with something that's good enough.
53. a sassy sister said the following at 10:50 AM on Jun 6:
Samantha, comment 41:
frankly, I think your argument is a mischaracterization. We are God's creation and while we were created for relationship, may I add that Adam walked with God BEFORE He created Eve? I think this is an issue of balance. I don't think anyone here is arguing that marriage isn't good or that community and relationships aren't good. However, are they really fulfilling their true purpose if they are not centered around showing God's love, building the kingdom of God, and glorifying Him? And when I am referring to relationships reflecting these things, I am not thinking of them in grand gestures but in simple, every day ways in attitude and action.
As far as as being "incomplete" without a man/woman, I don't buy it. God didn't say that Adam was complete without Eve, He said that it was not good for Adam to be alone---there is a big difference between being alone and being "incomplete." Also, I may add that man and woman were created for God's plan, and that woman was created to help man to fulfill God's purposes and plans for mankind.
What is our understanding of wholeness and completion? Is it satisfaction of all our desires and needs? Is it the fulfillment of our dreams? I ask these things because I believe that too many people go into marriage thinking that it's all about them when it's all about what God is doing through them to unconditionally love and respect their partner for life, so that the world sees Christ at work in their lives.
And as far as spouses being best friends goes, I think that there should be an openness and closeness between spouses that is of a "best friend" nature, but that still goes back to personal experience and opinions on what constitutes a "best friend." People have different expectations and understandings on what it means to be a "friend", much less a "best friend."
54. Louise from Chicago said the following at 3:54 PM on Jun 6:
Comment 46 I know lots of married people who speak disrespectfully of their partners, and indeed of other people.
It's not just the never-married and divorced who are guilty of this.
55. BDB said the following at 10:22 PM on Jun 6:
Ok, here's another example.
I've had people suggest I would be best suited to someone who was politically minded. That's interesting, because beyond being pro-life, it wasn't on my "list."
While I do have two degrees in politics, and take strong advocacy positions on policy issues, I rarely get involved in political campaigns of specific candidates. Over my lifetime, I think I've only given about $200 to candidates for office.
I've given vastly more to missionaries. I've also done graduate work in Bible and History of Christianity and Ministry.
I know a lot of politically active women who can be very unkind, especially when talking about their opponents. On the opposite end, with the budget crisis, I asked a friend of mine whose job likely will be affected if she was following the politics in the state capital, she said she wasn't because the outcome was in God's hands.
Hmmm. That's actually a pretty good answer.
So, in a hypothetical matchup between a nonpolitical woman who wants to spend her vacation visiting an orphanage in Mexico, and a woman who had no interest in missions but was active in electoral politics...I could probably learn to live without politics.
56. Annie said the following at 12:42 AM on Jun 7:
BDB –
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I feel kind of star-struck right now, really :) I appreciate you taking the time to respond and share your insight and wisdom about this issue.
It was helpful for you to approach this from a bit of a scientific / analytical viewpoint, since that’s the angle my boyfriend is coming from. In fact, I’ve already shared your posts with him and he responded very favorably. He really likes the idea of talking with couples in successful marriages. He’s spoken in-depth with a couple of his close friends about their marriages, but he’s now interested in talking with couples who have more years and experiences under their belts to see what they have to say.
I’m interested in the book recommendation by Florence Littauer – I’m on the hold list to get it from the public library.
You wrote (#43):
>> The reality is that an analytical, scientific mind will always be able to perceive some differences. But life is going to change over time, so the decision to stick together no matter what is far more important than being an exact match when you start out. The shared experiences through life become the material the friendship is built with.<<
Yes, yes, yes. I think this is right on, but it seems to be something my boyfriend is unsure about ‘buying into’ yet.
The framework you suggested for a relationship about work, play, worship, and think provides a great ‘big picture’ view of what is vital in a life-giving marriage relationship. I think we can continue to think critically about these areas and work on gaining experiences that can help us fully realize our potential as a couple.
As for Elizabeth Elliot, I’ve read Passion and Purity and have long admired her discipline and character. However…five years may be a bit long for me to wait. I think I would need to hear an audible voice from God before I would let that happen – but, you never know! ;)
Thanks, again!
Your #1 Fan,
Annie
57. Anna said the following at 5:40 AM on Jun 7:
This post makes me so happy.
I try to explain this to friends around me and most think I am "so anti-romantic and analytical".
Personally, I would say "realistic and not buying into the Disney view of love". :)
58. Laura said the following at 3:27 PM on Jun 7:
>>When I hear from someone about their relationship break-up because, "He wanted to change me!" I always wonder if they just told their soul mate to pound sand.>>
I can see where you're coming from--spouses *should* challenge each other to grow--, but there IS another side to it. I was in a relationship last year that, looking back, it seems that he wanted little else other than to change me. I'm not honestly sure if he liked anything about me besides some aspects of my body (and no, we weren't sexually involved).
He tried to change my sense of humor, hair style, amount I talked, clothing style, various aspects of my physical appearance, taste in music, etc. I look back now and wonder why I put up with it.... It was *him* that eventually broke things off. I was in love and about as blind as it gets.
That to say, yes, spouses/people-in-relationships will change with time--but someone trying to change *who you are* is a very valid concern.
59. Kellie said the following at 3:28 PM on Jun 7:
Maybe I'm just lucky in that my husband is my best friend and after 3 years of marriage and five years together, we are still very much in love. Marriage has not been hard, rather it has beeen an absolute joy to have him in my life. He is my soul mate, because he is my husband. The person you marry becomes "the one." It seems pretty simple to me.
60. Leah said the following at 6:20 AM on Jun 8:
Annie (37) - tell him he will never find someone that he is 100% positive is the best match he could possibly find. There will ALWAYS be "but could there be someone better suited to me?" In short: yes, there could be. But are you prepared to hang around thirty years only to discover there actually isn't? Marriage will always hold a bit of risk in it. You will never know the person 100% before entering into marriage because every year will bring a deeper understanding of the person.
IMO (24) - I think you mean you and your husband "spur" each other on. "Spurning" is sort of equivalent to snubbing or rejecting each other ;)
keith (8) - your example with Abram/Hagar is faulty. God forbids sex outside marriage, which is what Abram did with Hagar. However, when it comes to God's rules for marriage, they are these: someone of the opposite sex, and a believer. Those are his rules. If you stick to them, that's all that matters. Some choices will be wiser than others, but none will be wrong or sinful. What Abram did was not a matter of marrying the "wrong" person in God's eyes.
I think mary kate (28) needs to understand this too. The idea of people saying "oh, we just knew" is in no way disproving of the idea that there are many potential spouses. She asks how can i believe that the god of the universe, who knit me together in my mother's womb, and created all of my intricate details that make me uniquely me, and has told me he has a hope and a plan just for me, has basically told me to just marry anybody who loves Him?
Uhh... coz he says so? God has clearly given us rules in choosing a spouse. I've said it before, I'll say it again:
1) A human
2) Of the opposite sex
3) Who is a believer
There are other guidelines in choosing a better partner in preparation for a better life (eg. the man should be the leader) but the sin/non-sin issues are those first 3 rules. If your potential spouse satisfies those, that's all that matters. It is then your decision. Choose wisely, but it's your decision. God created you and loves you, yes. He also gave you a brain and free-will (within the confines of our earthly life) to think for yourself.
Look at it this way. I met my husband through the Christian group on campus at university. In that group, there were many guys who I could have married and satisfied God's requirements. They were human men who all loved Jesus. Within that group of guys, there was a smaller group who would have been better for me to marry; eg. some would not have been as good a leader for me whereas others would have fulfilled that job much better; some had significantly different theological differences to me which might have caused problems; some were simply more thoughtful/considerate. And within that group again, was the one I ended up choosing. I could have just as possibly ended up with one of those other guys (probably within the second-tier group, not the initial large one). I think of one in particular who, I find out years later, actually did have a 'thing' for me at one stage but ended up asking out another of my friends, so I ended up dating my now-husband. Don't get me wrong; I can think of many reasons why I'm happier I ended up married to my husband, but this other guy would have made a good husband too. Is my husband the only one God had in mind for me? I doubt it. I'm sure God would have been just as content for me to have married this other bloke. But neither of them was "the one" until we made the decision to get married -- and at that point, you have chosen "the one" for your life.
61. Trevor Dolby said the following at 1:04 PM on Jun 8:
Leah (60): As you refer to God-given rules for choosing spouses (spice?), I think there is one other that is often ignored in our day and age: chastity (or the lack thereof).
It's not a popular topic these days, but it's all over the Old Testament, where non-virgin females were at risk of being stoned (though that didn't always happen - see Judah and Tamar), and the New Testament assumes it too (1 Corinthians 7 is littered with the Greek work for virgin, though it's often translated as something else). The early church, in fact, often went down the path of denigrating anything (including marriage) that interfered!
Regardless of opinions on celibacy for ministers and the stoning of non-virgins :) it seems clear that God cares greatly about the question, and pretending it doesn't matter seems very unwise. The exact details about what happens if you come to Christ after a promiscuous life are sketchy at best :( and there are other factors like widows, and Hosea being ordered by God to marry a prostitute, but the general picture is very clear.
62. mary kate said the following at 1:44 PM on Jun 8:
hmm, leah.... i don't think i agree with the idea that marrying some guy who is christian, no matter who he is, would be a sin-free choice. i'm surrounded by several godly christian men who are awesome guys. however, it's pretty obvious that god has them on very different paths than me. for me to marry any of them would deter both of us from the paths god has us each on. i don't think that my marrying any of them would bring any glory to god. i don't think it would spur on anyone else to a better relationship with god, and i just really don't see how my choosing, pretty much outside of god's will, to get married to some guy, would be a sin-free choice....?
on the flip side, just because a sinful choice is made, doesn't mean god can't work with it and make awesomeness out of it.
63. Sarah P. said the following at 1:49 PM on Jun 8:
Annie (#56): As for Elizabeth Elliot, I’ve read Passion and Purity and have long admired her discipline and character. However…five years may be a bit long for me to wait. I think I would need to hear an audible voice from God before I would let that happen – but, you never know! ;)
I'm actually reading that book again right now, with fresh eyes. It occurs to me that, if God wanted you to wait five years, you wouldn't have much choice in the matter. ;) There would be two ways to do it -- the hard way, or the harder way. ;)
64. Dani said the following at 2:19 PM on Jun 8:
Whether or not your spouse is your best friend or soulmate or perfect match does not determine the goodness of the marriage. A true, Christian, Biblical marriage is one that reflects Christ and the church: leadership and submission, love and respect.
My parents met, got engaged two weeks later, married a year later, and did not become believers until 15 years later! God works in mysterious ways and the point now is that my parents reflect the image of Christ and his bride, the church.
65. BDB said the following at 4:37 PM on Jun 8:
Comment #56 wrote:
>>Comment 46 I know lots of married people who speak disrespectfully of their partners, and indeed of other people.<<
I also know a number of married people who did this for years before their divorce.
@ #58 Let me clarify a bit on the "change me" comment, which applies to the respecfulness issue, too.
Among my friends who've been married for 20+ years successfully, I noticed that they are always thinking about how their decisions impact their family. I really notice it in my Bible study. When I commented on this to them, and to other successfully-married people, they say, "Yes, of course."
I've mentioned this to a couple of single women, too. They surprised me by categorically rejecting the idea - they told me flat out I was wrong.
This is a stark contrast. But I think this attitude is probably the biggest reason certain people who want to be married find themselves single. I'm not talking about twisting oneself into a pretzel to fit someone else's ideals.
But basic things - like when someone mentions her husband doesn't like potato salad with celery so she dropped it from her recipe. (I put in pickles instead - still crunchy and blends well with the mustard and dash of vinegar.) Those who insist on doing things their way (putting the celery in) regardless of how eveyone else feels about it, eventually those kinds of little annoyances add up.
The other side is that people shouldn't expect people to telepathically know that they don't like celery. Say something, don't just stew about it. If they explode, well, that's a red flag. But geez, it's just potato salad. Try it a different way and see if you can live with it.
My sister was explaining this weekend that her potato salad recipe now combines the best elements of our family and her in-laws. It's different than my recipe, but it's fine. Still no celery.
66. BDB said the following at 4:43 PM on Jun 8:
Annie (#56) wrote:
>>However…five years may be a bit long for me to wait.<<
There's a spot in one of her newsletters where Elisabeth Elliot describes a young man they met at a conference and who introduced the girlfriend he'd been dating for two years. They admonished him for not having proposed yet. And in a latter newsletter, they reported attending their wedding.
67. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:28 PM on Jun 8:
BDB (66): I've seen something similar in a couple I know - they went from 'boyfriend/girlfriend' to 'engaged' in the space of a week as a result of a conversation the guy had with someone! I suspect it only happens that way if the guy already has what it takes, though, and just needed a push.
68. BDB said the following at 11:34 AM on Jun 9:
Trevor Dolby (#67) wrote:
>>I suspect it only happens that way if the guy already has what it takes, though, and just needed a push.<<
And, in the specific incident, he said that he hadn't proposed because he didn't know how she felt. They simply pointed out that was the purpose of asking - she'll tell you.