Seek to Be Known
by Motte Brown on 06/09/2009 at 5:00 PM
It's easy to be self-deceived. I have a friend who has deceived himself into believing that his close relationship with a woman who is not his wife is honorable. When I ask him tough questions about their time together alone, whether or not he is attracted to her, etc., he responds with things like, "Show me in the Bible where I can't be good friends with another woman."
When I do, it's met with, "That's just your interpretation."
I was reminded of this when I read this portion of today's Boundless article "Being Seen":
J. Budziszewski in his book, Written on the Heart, explains how God has made Himself known to all mankind through general revelation, but that we have obscured that revelation through our own rebellion. He writes, "We hold down the truth -- we pretend to ourselves that we do not know what we really do know (see Romans 1:18-19)." He goes on to say that "the very heart on which God has written his law is estranged from itself."
Deep down, I believe my friend knows what is right. He knows that his relationship with the other woman is wrong. He's only pretending that he doesn't because he's enjoying it too much to give it up.
I wonder if there are areas in my life where I'm seeking to hide instead of seeking to be known.
1. Jorden said the following at 11:22 PM on Jun 9:
I can relate with your friend some. I haven't had any close friendships with girls in person(aside from dating them). But over the past year I have had 2 really close online friends and we have chatted a lot and spent a lot of time together...even if it was just IMing.
One friend stopped talking to me because of school last fall and she was just too busy. We recently have started talking a little more since she has some time during the summer, but it's mostly updates on how we're doing(her family was going through a tough time and just life changes in general for us). So we don't talk very often anymore. But she is an awesome Christian friend and we both know that we're there for each other no matter what, so that has always been a cool friendship. She has given me good advice when I needed it and vice versa. And prayer, etc.
And then my other friend stopped talking to me after I started dating my current girlfriend. I don't disagree with her not talking with me, but she did it very abruptly and didn't even let me know why she wasn't talking to me. So I was very confused for awhile. I wish she would've just been plain with me. But it was my fault; so I will take the blame.
So yeah, I just need to learn how to not hang out with girls...even if it's just online that I have the problem. I think a big reason we're drawn to cross-gender friendships is because it gives us the semblance of a couple without the commitment and we are drawn to that. But close friendships are hard to keep up in the long run. Especially if you ever plan on dating.
2. Diane said the following at 4:42 AM on Jun 10:
The heart is deceptive above all things. Pray for your friend and don't give up on him. After 30 years of marriage I arrived at a similar place. By God's grace He spoke to me clearly through his word and I acknowledged what was going on in my head and heart with an inappropriate friendship. I sought the accountability and prayers of a godly friend yet it still took me a year and much struggle to sever the relationship. In hindsight I can see all the lies I was willing to believe but it was truly a very great battle.
3. Leah W said the following at 8:08 AM on Jun 10:
This article hit me really hard!! The part that got me the most was when she stated the older we get the better we are at hiding.
I've found this to be so very true in my Christian walk. When I first began my personal relationship with Christ I would "hide" my sins, faults and failures in the most obvious places--and they would be found and brought to light for me to deal with. But it seems the deeper I get into God when I "hide" from a conviction or from what I know I need to do, the better I am at "hiding" behind justifications, and even at times my ministry. "Well, I can't deal with that right now, God. I've got to finish(this ministry, work, etc) and I even then I don't think I'll have (the time, energy, money, etc)." (Like God can't provide if He's called me to it.) Or I don't take the time to find out if He has called me to put the ministry to the side for a moment until He is done getting my hidden sins out of my life--so I can better serve Him.
As I thought on it more and more throughout the day I realized that since I've been a Christian for so long it's easier now for me to "hide" my sin from other Christians. (those not in my inner circle/accountability group) I find it's so simple to hide my ugliness behind the works that I do for the church. And while I'm not depending on those works to save me from sin, I do let them help me feel better about what I'm neglecting in my personal walk.
Major conviction on both fronts. And while I'm not all the way through this particular mess, as least I'm up and walking again! :)
Thank you so much for this article! (Sorry about the rambling, I just tend to think deeper on certain things as I get my basic thoughts out of the way.) :)
4. k.k. said the following at 8:51 AM on Jun 10:
"When I ask him tough questions about their time together alone, whether or not he is attracted to her, etc., he responds with things like, "Show me in the Bible where I can't be good friends with another woman."
When I do, it's met with, "That's just your interpretation."
Unfortunately, some men I know have this same response. What can I share with them to let them know (biblically) that they are wrong?
5. Louise from Chicago said the following at 9:20 AM on Jun 10:
With all due respect Mr. Brown, is it really your place to ask "tough questions" of your friend regarding his other friendships?
He was probably nicer than I would have been.
6. Elisabeth said the following at 10:14 AM on Jun 10:
I'm curious whether your friend has a friendship with her or a "friendship with benefits", as I've heard it called...and if it's really, truly just friendship, I would like to see these verses...'cause I've had various friendships with young men, and I want to be sure I am not violating a Biblical principle. :-)
7. Courtney P. said the following at 10:34 AM on Jun 10:
Great article, we are all in need of forgiveness from Christ and nothinng can be hiden from Hime, come to Christ with on open and repentent heart, the bible says the "healing is the childrens bread" not only physical healing but healing from our sins and hurts of the past.
8. Tami said the following at 10:49 AM on Jun 10:
If someone is *that* self justifying, it's really, really difficult to get through to them. Typically, they have just as many verses to justify themselves as you have to show them their error. Plus (in my experience) their self justification "allows" them to change their story whenever you come up with a valid point. Like nailing Jell-O to a wall.
And I think of David and Nathan... for David to "snap out of it," it took Nathan holding up a (figurative) mirror up to David and getting him to recognize the gravity of what he'd done -- via a story that forced David to recognize that his actions, in that instance, violated his principles, with devastating results.
Only the Holy Spirit can do the work of conviction, though, really.
9. Texas Craig said the following at 10:56 AM on Jun 10:
Motte:
It might be helpful for the discussion if you clarified what sort of a "friendship" is in issue. Is it an "intimate" friendship, which is held to a very clear standard in the Bible. Or is it merely a non-intimate friendship.
If there is no evidence of "intimacy" then I would also like to know what verses would apply, because I am not aware of any Biblical basis for concluding that men and women cannot have good friendships. Certainly, there may be practical reasons it is better to avoid good friendships with the opposite sex. But, we have to be careful not to turn practical reasons into Biblical admonitions.
Similarly, the concern that some action may lead to sin does not then turn the action into sin itself. For example, many people choose to not drink alcohol because it can lead to sinful behavior (intoxication, loss of self-control, sexual immorality, etc.). But, the potential for sin does not making drinking alcohol itself sinful.
In the same way, a good friendship may present some temptations that should be avoided, but in itself it is not sin and ought not be judged by others as sin. But, if sexual immorality is involved, then it clearly ought to be confronted, as we have a command to rebuke and reprove one another.
10. Texas Craig said the following at 10:58 AM on Jun 10:
BTW, when I talk about "intimacy" in my last post, I am referring to sexual conduct. I should have been clear.
11. Trisha in AR said the following at 11:18 AM on Jun 10:
Louise (#5), I believe Motte did the right thing. If his intentions were to tear down or show superiority, then there would be an issue. I see his 'tough questions' as more of a true concern for his brother in Christ. :)
Galatians 6 (Amplified Bible)
1BRETHREN, IF any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also.
12. Tami said the following at 11:21 AM on Jun 10:
Sex or no sex, if I was married, I wouldn't be thrilled if my husband had any sort of intimate relationship (emotional, physical, spiritual...) with another woman.
It's not like I can point out chapter and verse how that would be against the Bible. But I don't think that super-close relationships with members of the opposite sex are the healthiest thing when considering how to build a strong marital bond.
13. Louise from Chicago said the following at 11:32 AM on Jun 10:
Comment 11, if Mr. Brown wants to help his friend, that is a good thing.
I guess I just don't recognize that level of accountability in one's private life.
14. IMO said the following at 11:54 AM on Jun 10:
If my husband was involved in such a friendship, it would be such an incredible for one of his friends to ask him the tough questions.
Thanks Motte for being a godly friend to this man, whether or not he recognizes it.
15. IMO said the following at 12:20 PM on Jun 10:
Correction
...it would be such an incredible blessing to me...
16. Hannah C. said the following at 12:41 PM on Jun 10:
As a young, recently engaged woman, I completely second Tami (#12).
I have friends who are guys. But I have no guy friends that I would hang out with one on one. It's always in a group of at least three - and these are not people I would share extremely deep stuff with, either. I didn't plan it that way; it just sort of happened.
I do, however, have a few wonderfully close female friends who a truly a blessing to me. :)
17. Jo said the following at 1:52 PM on Jun 10:
Is there a difference between close friendships that pre-date the marriage, and ones formed after the marriage?
I for example am single, and I have a couple of close male friends. I grew up with them and they know me very well. I think when I'm married, I will no longer be forming close friendships like that with other guys, but those two friends who I've known since I was a kid will still be good friends. I'm not saying nothing will change in our friendships - but I hope they won't suddenly become more superficial and less meaningful.
I think I'd feel the same about my husband's friendships - I wouldn't expect him to give up female friends he already had, but I would feel differently if he was getting equally close with new female friends. I think once you're married, you shouldn't cultivate new opposite-sex friendships that exclude your spouse.
But the pre-existing friendships are a trickier issue. I think no one-to-one time is probably a good idea from the 'honouring your spouse' perspective, even if there is no temptation or attraction. But I don't know if I'd make that a universal rule, and beyond that I'm a bit undecided on what else should change.
18. Brian K said the following at 2:38 PM on Jun 10:
Louise said:
Comment 11, if Mr. Brown wants to help his friend, that is a good thing.
I guess I just don't recognize that level of accountability in one's private life.
I think that is a perfect illustration of the mentality of hiding. We often sin and hide it citing "that's personal" or private. Not to say that everything we do is discussed in detail out in the open (I think my wife would rather me not). I have trouble sharing those things in my “private” life that others can and should call out. I too often value my comfort and whatever veneer I can over serving God. Integrity is doing what is right when no one is looking. Hiding gives us a false sense of integrity.
19. Louise from Chicago said the following at 2:59 PM on Jun 10:
Comment 18, I don't consider keeping my personal life my own private business to be "hiding."
20. BDB said the following at 3:19 PM on Jun 10:
I'm unclear on something.
Is this a married man spending a lot of one-on-one time with a woman who is not his wife?
Or is this two single people spending lots of one-on-one time together?
If it's the first, then yes, you can mention that it can create the impression that it's an affair. I worked with people who would regularly meet with former co-workers for lunch or breakfast. Behind their back, other co-workers said they were having an affair.
However, if it's the latter, I think some married people are far too quick to jump to conclusions. It amazes me that someone would jump to the conclusion that I'm dating someone if they saw me, once, talking with a woman in the parking lot at church. Calm down people. Though if someone is spending a lot of time with someone they have no intention of marrying, it would be appropriate for them to consider they are creating unfair expectations in that other person. If they enjoy spending that much time with them, maybe they shouldn't overlook them.
In C.S. Lewis' The Four Loves, the chapter on Friendship does an excellent job of exploring this concept. Unfortunately, he also had to put in a section to debunk those who say that when two men have a close frendship, it's "really" homosexual. Even if there is no evidence of that. The word "really" is what betrays them, because it is a claim that no other evidence is needed. Lewis points out that such people betray the fact that they've never had a true friend.
He uses the invisible cat example. If the chair looks empty, it's because an invisible cat is sitting in it. Perhaps one cannot disprove the existence of invisible cats. But it tells us a lot about the person who holds the opinion.
I hold with Lewis that it is quite possible to have opposite-sex friendships without them being sinful. Lewis does an excellent job of defining where those boundaries will lie.
21. Dorene said the following at 3:36 PM on Jun 10:
I couldn't agree more with the above post. I have done this so often in my life that after a while I am so sucked into my deception that it takes a fall or God's grace and mercy to set me free!And I have found out the same in my friends/loved one's lives that you can't get through unless there is a direct revelation in their lives. It is sad- how easily we allow our hearts to harden and get callous that it becomes so insensitive to the God's written word and His convictions. The only thing that has worked for me is staying close to God - reading His word and following His word and keeping my heart soft towards God - obedience to His word! I would encourage my brothers n sisters to hang in there and keep praying for the rest who may be caught up in this situation. Grace n Peace!
22. BDB said the following at 3:39 PM on Jun 10:
Without endorsing the specific situation that Motte is describing with his friend (I do indeed think something needs to change if it looks like an affair to outsiders), I do want to submit something for your consideration.
Recently we've been discussing how soul-mate-ism is a failed philosophy: that people should not seek that one person who perfectly meets all their emotional needs.
I submit for your consideration that the idea that men and women should ONLY be close to their spouse is not Biblical, but it is a Cultural effect of this soul-mate-ism philosophy.
You can see this most clearly in extended families where there are good relationships. Would one say it is wrong to have a close relationship with one's sister/brother or opposite-sex cousin if the family all grew up together? There's the Biblical prohibition against sex with family members. But there is no Biblical prohibition against being close to family members.
In America, we've wiped out our siblings. Whether via abortion or birth control there are many people who grow up as only children. Something in their lives ends up missing - the emotional support that used to come from extended families.
What I believe people end up doing is filling the extended-family void with other friendships. Why do I think this? Because I have extended-family relationships, and part of my family has nine siblings and lots and lots of cousins in the next generation. The result is a remarkably close extended family.
If someone is exhorting a younger woman "as a sister," that does not preclude being close to your sister, does it?
But the real test of such closeness is whether other people can join the two and be welcome. As Lewis writes, this is the distinguishing difference between "Friendship" and "Romantic Love." In Friendship, two are always happy to be joined by a third who shares their views. In Romantic love, the guy wants to get the woman alone.
23. Tami said the following at 4:48 PM on Jun 10:
BDB wrote:
"In Friendship, two are always happy to be joined by a third who shares their views. In Romantic love, the guy wants to get the woman alone."
And this *is* the distinctive.
Let's suppose Motte's friend is married; why can't his wife be there, joining the conversation?
I have married male friends -- a couple of whom are my mentors. Sometimes we have long (long!) conversations about all manner of things. But I would *always* want their wives around if they could be. And these men are not my closest confidantes; these conversations happen maybe once or twice a year.
So I assume that most of us who are concerned about this aren't simply saying, "No man of MINE will EVER speak to another woman!" What gives me pause here is the guy's defensiveness and the constant evasiveness. Also, I can't discount the fact that Motte is bringing it up; he's the one who knows the guy, and would be able to discern something strange. And maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it also seems that his wife is either unaware of the relationship, or at the very least the guy is insensitive to how his wife might feel about the relationship.
We all need friends, support, and love from our Christian brothers and sisters. *Personally* I think much of this fellowship should come within a group context (though I'm not saying it's a "sin" to ever hang out with someone of the opposite sex one on one). And I think it's unwise to make blanket rules -- for example, I'm not all that keen on making myself feel guilty... like a broke a boundary... if I sent an encouraging email to a married guy friend. But the marital relationship should retain some distinctives and protective boundaries that help nurture it.
(If he's not married, then I'm with you; so long as he's not misleading the woman, it's not so much of a concern. But because Motte refers to "the other woman," I do get the sense he *is* married.)
24. Ted Slater said the following at 4:52 PM on Jun 10:
BDB (#20), you asked, "Is this a married man spending a lot of one-on-one time with a woman who is not his wife? Or is this two single people spending lots of one-on-one time together?"
He is a married man, who is spending lots of relational time with another woman, and consequently not pouring much relational energy into his marriage.
There's more to the story than Motte is saying, but in order to retain the privacy of the person in question, he's leaving out some details.
25. Brian Krieger said the following at 6:27 PM on Jun 10:
Louise (#19):
I don’t mean to sound rebarbative, but yes, I know, and that is exactly my point. We want to do what we want and we don’t want anyone telling us any different. Sin (perhaps just for me, who knows?) is easier to justify when no one sees it or when we have no fear of being noticed. Again, that doesn’t mean that I share every graphic detail of my life and those around me are free to push for that level of detail. But with outworking actions in particular, we must remember to sharpen one another (Pr 27:17), we don’t get to hide our sin (Pr 28:13) and gently restore (Gal 6:1). And I think that is where we depart. My prayer is that I have men like Motte in my life (I believe I do). Otherwise, I would be a fool who spurned discipline.
26. k.k. said the following at 7:13 PM on Jun 10:
I don't understand why there is a distinction between single and married folks when it comes to friendships. If we are single people we should have boundaries now, before (if) we get married.
I know single brothers in Christ who (subtly)have too much emotional intimacy with their sisters and have left a few of them in shock and disbelief because their actions communicated one thing, even though they did not state their intentions. These brothers were called out (like the above scenario) and acted like they were clueless about how others were viewing them.
That will spill over into marriage if it doesn't get addressed.
To the person who views "intimacy" as just "sex", there is more to it than that. There has to be an emotional bond, first, before the physical even comes along.
I did a little research on "emotional affairs" online and there are alot of people (mostly married people that I came across) who are dealing with this and it's sad!
That's why the single people need to get our boundaries together so we can avoid a potential issue down the road.
27. Mike said the following at 7:16 PM on Jun 10:
Michael and Haley DiMarco covered this issue in Marriable. Essentially, what this amounts to is what Ted talked about: Draining emotional energy away from the marriage. Consider these scenarios:
1) You have a fight with your spouse. Your spouse runs to the opposite-sex "friend" for consolation. Do you really want that level of emotional intimacy between your spouse and another opposite-sex individual when your spouse is mad at you?
2) Your spouse has an "old" opposite-sex friend from years ago, who knows your spouse even better than you do (especially early in the marriage). They have years, maybe decades of old experience to draw on. Do you really want to feel like a "third wheel" when you get together?
3) Some have already commented on the "appearance of evil" problem, but you're really not fleeing from temptation if you're hanging around someone with whom you share emotional intimacies, especially when your marriage hits a rough patch. It's an invitation to adultery.
Short version: Bad idea. As the DiMarcos say, save the friendships for people of the same gender.
28. Texas Craig said the following at 7:28 PM on Jun 10:
FWIW, Ted's post clears up a lot for me and makes it fairly clear that this man's actions are wrong. Before that, I mistakenly was under the impression the man was not married.
Although the Bible does not prohibit opposite-sex friendships after marriage, there are two considerations that I think a mature Christian will take into account in avoiding letting those friendships be "close."
First, a husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church. Part of that means that we honor our wives by not letting another relationship hurt her in any way. Assuming the man's wife is opposed to this friendship being so close, then the husband should honor his wife by not spending a lot of time with the friend.
Second, the husband must be above reproach. For a married man to be spending much time with another woman has the very real potential to dishonor Christ to unbelievers, because many may assume the man is having an affair. While this is a sticky area (because many people can get worked up over silly things and be bothered by them, and we cannot let everything somebody else thinks dictate our actions), I think it is fair to say that the name of Christ would be dishonored if an unbeliever sees (or thinks) a Christian is having an affair.
So, to me, the man should really question his actions and stop doing things that hurt his spouse and potentially dishonor the name of Christ.
Press on, Motte, in challenging him in love, and I hope he wakes up soon to the harm his conduct may be causing.
29. BDB said the following at 7:58 PM on Jun 10:
Ted (#24) thank you for clarifying.
Unfortunately, I've been around a situation like that. I completely understand the privacy concerns.
In a similar situation, I know that leaders in my church would give the friend advice to pass on to the guy: Go home to your wife.
The woman is his "escape route."
Unfortunately, I've seen same-sex friends be just as damaging to marriages. The most relevant example is a guy who is considering divorce. He talks to his buddies, and one of them says, "I got divorced. The kids were fine in six months."
Bad friends corrupt good character, regardless of their gender.
It is a very difficult conversation to have with the straying individual. The main piece of advice I'd offer is DON'T do it in writing. Do it in person or over the phone. It's already a volatile situation; writing it all out in detail will likely not be an effective approach, even if it does facilitate being scripturally accurate and precise. If necessary, write it out in a letter, but don't send the letter. Use it as the preparation for the conversation.
Believe me. Better to do it in person and take the wrath.
30. Rachael said the following at 10:15 PM on Jun 10:
I do not want to get close with any guy (excluding family [and possibly their spouses if we're at a family gathering], but I'm not often deep even with males in my immediate family) besides my husband.
That said, I recognize that I often pour out my heart in posts here although I should perhaps more often share more of my heart with my husband.
31. Lucy said the following at 10:54 PM on Jun 10:
I am a teacher...
Today as I was driving some friends to get lunch...I found out that my married coworkers are getting a divorce, because the husband had an affair. Through the bible, Christian devotionals, and many Christian avenues...I've learned that people (married AND single) must honor marriages by being careful...even in the most "silly", as some may call them...ways.
I am friends with both husband and wife (I knew the wife's parents before I knew her...I played guitar in a youth correctional through a Christian org. her parents are still a part of), but I didn't find out about the divorce until today. Apparently, the affair happened a year ago and they have been trying to work through it.
I really try to stay out of people's business unless they tell me first hand. The person who's mouth it slipped out saw my stunned face and said they thought it was common knowledge.
Anyway, it might have been last year, but I was telling the husband something that I was upset about...he came in my room and closed the door...but I said...woe...open that door...I'm not trying to go out like that...you are a married man!!! He squinted his eyebrows a bit...but he knows me like that and knows I'm a Christian and opened the door back up.
Anyway, couldn't it have been me that he cheated with had I allowed small things like closed doors to draw us closer than it should. I've hung out with them countless times. Well, it wasn't me...but this happened with someone else...a friend!!!
I'm single and I know this...don't be ALONE OR DO TOO MUCH with a man or woman unless they are your spouse...and that message is for the singles as well!!!
Not one is immune to this message...not even the pope...
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
God Bless!!!
32. BDB said the following at 11:37 PM on Jun 10:
As far as discipline, I know some parents who fret a lot about how their teenagers/young adults are walking away from God.
I know another guy whose teenagers were pressing him to go do something with them in the afternoon after church.
After they left, he was complaining about how much trouble they were, etc. etc.
I admonished him that he is extremely blessed to have teenagers who want to spend time with dad - they could be out partying and trying to get away. He should complain about them.
I think he's still mad at me. Or convicted. At least quiet.
But he's annoyed a number of people by being very negative, someone needed to point out the obvious before it did turn into a serious problem. An opportunity presented itself.
33. BDB said the following at 11:55 PM on Jun 10:
Mike (#27)- are you referring to these DiMarcos?
Goodness gracious, they met online. Very modern and American story.
When C.S. Lewis wrote on Friendship, he was writing about Friendship as the ancients understood it. Friendship has to be about some subject, such as missions. It's very different than the companionship that involves a lot of emotional intimacy.
I think we're comparing apples and kiwis here.
In fact, reading their first-date advice, I know they're not on the same page as Lewis when it comes to functioning in the world of ideas. It doesn't work that way.
34. BDB said the following at 12:37 AM on Jun 11:
Jo (#17) wrote:
>>but those two friends who I've known since I was a kid will still be good friends. <<
This varies by couple, but it probably also depends on how they treat your future husband.
I had a good friend in college. When she needed to think out loud and discuss something, we might hope into the car at midnight and drive in a random direction until we came to a Denny's.
There was a guy interested in her, and though they weren't officially dating, people teased her about how much time they spent together studying. I have letters from her insisting she had no intention of marrying him.
One day she asked, "Why do they say that?" By this time, I was impressed by how well he treated her and I reeled off about five reasons why he would be a good match for her.
She was quiet for a moment, then said, "Oh."
And changed the subject.
She never complained about the teasing again. And never again said she wouldn't marry him.
I flew to their wedding and he and I get along great.
It was important to take a step back and give them some space, especially for the first couple of years as they built their new identity. I'd never make a midnight Denny's run now of course. But I'm glad they can both be my friends.
The people I know with the best marriages work out a kind of public space, private space thing. It starts when they build their boundaries to keep their inlaws from destroying their marriage - something that is usually discussed in premarital counseling. But later on, many couples do quite well with a variety of people in the "public space."
My grandparents have been married 70 years. Both did a lot of mentoring of others, particularly in regards to motivating people to get education. This includes my grandfather motivating women personally. In his role as a guidance counselor, this was his job, and some of the people he so motivated became lifelong friends.
But note that both my grandparents were passionae about education. As far as I can tell, this mentoring was always done with the mindset that, as a couple, they were encouraging people to seek out education that was a good fit. The way they did it meant that anyone my grandfather was mentoring could easily join both of them for dinner at their home. The mentoring was one-on-one, but it was about a defined subject; education.
And I met a number of these mentees 10 years ago at their 60th anniversary.
35. Sarah P. said the following at 7:53 AM on Jun 11:
@ k.k. (#26): That's why the single people need to get our boundaries together so we can avoid a potential issue down the road.
I couldn't agree with your post more! This kind of reserve is one huge characteristic I look for in my "brothers" and rejoice to see. I find it very attractive and appropriate; I would gladly forsake any deep friendship with a man in order to see him build the beauty of a strong character for a future or current wife.
And I seek to cultivate this character in myself. God knows I am more grateful than I can say for the self-control He has grown in me over the last few years.
36. Samantha said the following at 2:03 PM on Jun 11:
There is a man I know who has an extremely close friendship with a female coworker. They are just friends.Of course they hug like friends. Is this okay? Sometimes he kisses her, but it's just a joke and the kissing is G-Rated. What do you think? Is this a sinful friendship?
37. Mike said the following at 2:53 PM on Jun 11:
BDB (#33) wrote:
Mike (#27)- are you referring to these DiMarcos?
Yes, those are the ones.
Goodness gracious, they met online. Very modern and American story.
Yep.
When C.S. Lewis wrote on Friendship, he was writing about Friendship as the ancients understood it. Friendship has to be about some subject, such as missions. It's very different than the companionship that involves a lot of emotional intimacy.
Agreed.
I think we're comparing apples and kiwis here.
Possibly.
:-)
I was referring to "friends" in the "share intimate thoughts and feeling" sense. That sort need to be off-limits in the "opposite sex other than your spouse" venue. Too much opportunity for trouble.
But even the "shared activity" sort can create opportunities for trouble. Do you go, say, on a ski vacation with your "best bud" female friend, even if you're staying in separate hotel rooms? That's a shared activity, but how does that look if your wife is staying behind to mind the kids, or because of work?
I think you're still on thin ice whenever you're in a one-on-one setting with an individual of the opposite sex who is not your spouse. Jerry Jenkins' book Hedges speaks to the need to put up some pretty extreme boundaries to avoid such situations. For example, if he's out on a business trip and the company he's visiting intends to send a lone woman to pick him up at the airport, he refuses. They have to either send two people, or he'll take a cab. Why? Because of the "appearance" issue.
Billy Graham was another example. He refused to have his secretary enter his hotel room. If they had any work to do, they did it in the lobby of the hotel.
Hedges protect the integrity of the marriage. Having "buds" of the opposite sex is, in this person's view, asking for trouble.
But that's just the opinion of a divorced man. Take it for what it's worth.
38. Tami said the following at 3:36 PM on Jun 11:
Mike said:
"Do you go, say, on a ski vacation with your 'best bud' female friend, even if you're staying in separate hotel rooms? That's a shared activity, but how does that look if your wife is staying behind to mind the kids, or because of work?"
Wow-ee! If I was that guy's wife? I'd be all, "I'm packing my laptop and the kids and coming with you!"
39. Samantha said the following at 5:26 PM on Jun 11:
I should have added to my comment (36) that the man I'm talking about is married.
40. Mike said the following at 6:25 PM on Jun 11:
Tami (#38) -
Thanks for proving my point.
:-)
41. Tami said the following at 9:33 PM on Jun 13:
Mike -- :) back at you! ;) There is no way I would let my (yet-nonexistent) husband take a vacation with another woman, without me there!
Per the discussion at large: I was poking around on Cloud and Townsend's website and found a video dealing with this subject. In sum, Townsend basically says what many of us here have said: if the opposite-sex friends support and encourage the marriage, great; if the relationship "siphons off" energy from the marriage, it's not good.
http://www.cloudtownsend.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=townsendA1065
42. BDB said the following at 5:06 PM on Jun 14:
Mike (#37) wrote:
>>I think you're still on thin ice whenever you're in a one-on-one setting with an individual of the opposite sex who is not your spouse.<<
You know what? Human beings need to learn to discipline their behavior, physical or otherwise. It's quite possible to spend many hours alone with someone of the opposite gender without ever having sex with them, which is where the Bible draws the firm line. It's a lot easier to pull off if one is sober and discussing economic history than if both are drinking wine and flirting.
I'm greatly disturbed by the number of people I know in their 20's who are getting divorced because they "didn't know each other very well." I'd MUCH rather see people volunteering together in pairs and getting to know each other in advance. You learn so much about someone by working with them on a team. It is a grave error to insist that men in women only hang out in groups until marriage. They do not magically learn how to work together as a team, and it creates substantial adjustment problems.
Go talk to the people you know who have successful marriages, say, more than 20 years. The people I know with the best marriages consistently had some kind of passion in common that they were able to do together as a team - the two of them.
Yes, if you're going to do that, you should set a firm boundary, such as "hands off and clothes on." That's a lot more conservative than the average Christian who believes dating is permissible. If you are unable to observe that physical boundary, fine, never be alone with anyone.
43. Mike said the following at 6:38 PM on Jun 15:
BDB (#42) -
Having interests in common...working as a team...getting to know each other before marriage...
Wow - that all sounds great!
Okay, let's think about this for a minute. You have several spheres in your life. Certainly, you have more than one interest, right? You have work, church, hobbies, volunteerism, recreation, whatever. So, logically, you most likely have more than one of these "teams". And if you establish that the purpose of these relationships (at least some of them) is weeding out candidates for marriage, then you will have multiple opposite-sex "teammates".
How many of these "teammates" can you marry?
One.
How many of your "teammates" will your wife likely tolerate after you're married?
Oops.
I stand by my conviction that male-female, two-person "teams" in isolation, sharing intimate activities or feelings, are a recipe for trouble. Save such activities for groups.
Now, I fully agree with you that there are WAY too many people - both within the Christian community and outside it - who think marriage is all about warm fuzzy feelings. If the thrill goes up their legs when they see each other, then they must be right for each other - or so the delusion goes.
And I also agree that what we typically think of as "dating" is way too amorphous to be reliable. (And way too caught up in hormonal drivers, to boot.) What's needed is a process of courtship, where each person is intentionally seeking to discover whether the other is a good match for marriage.
But let's save the palling around for same sex friendships and groups. Otherwise, you're left with two very unsavory choices: Either you threaten your wife's sense of security because you continue the relationships after marriage, or you have to sever the relationship for the sake of your marriage.
I speak from bitter experience. One of the reasons for my divorce was that my wife's sense of security was constantly threatened by the fact that I had working relationships with other women and she couldn't be there.
Don't let that happen to you. Please.