Ranting on Sexual Sin | Boundless Line

Ranting on Sexual Sin
by Ted Slater on 06/15/2009 at 11:26 AM

hello i read your article about enslaved by sex and i am youth leader in the church and i have a girlfriend i have been with for 2 years and we entered the church together and we had sex before and then we stopped and then we continued and then we stopped for a while a long while and then we stopped and after i while i was so deep into sin that i was scared to tell anyone because my pastor started trusting me and i would feel like i failed him.

So begins the question that John Thomas addresses in today's Boundless Answers column, "Tormented by Sexual Sin."

I decided against editing the question too much, beyond adding paragraph breaks and cleaning up some of the more egregious punctuation. I left much of it as we received it, though, so that you might get a better sense of this young man's desperation.

In his shout-out to Little Rock, John characterized his reply as "a rant." Hm. Is it a rant? You decide -- here are a few paragraphs:

I'll be honest, most young Christian men in your situation are too selfish and cowardly to make the changes necessary to move forward. They keep talking about change, but never actually do anything about it — until something happens that forces it. They talk big of wanting to be used by God but continue to waddle around in sexual sin and pornography, sapped of all their strength, powerless in the kingdom of God.

Why won't they get violent with their sin? Why won't they rip the computer out of the wall? Why won't they burn the magazines? Why won't they break off the relationships? Why won't they repent in dust and ashes? Why won't they change?

Well, because it makes them feel so good.

Warriors on the sidelines, watching the adventure go by, while they eat their stew.

Strong words. The truth is, though, that sometimes we need strong words to motivate us to honor the Lord rather than seek selfish satisfaction for our desires.

I've been in a similar place: being in a sinful relationship while serving in church leadership. And I've benefited from such strong counsel as John's, and benefited from experiencing the painful consequences of my sin.

I pray this young man, and maybe even you, find John's words to be redemptive, and not dismiss them too quickly as "a rant."

Sex | Mail This | Share on Facebook

Comments

You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

1. Louise from Chicago said the following at 11:31 AM on Jun 15:

In my opinion, Mr. Thomas's reply does not qualify as a "rant."

2. Leah W said the following at 12:01 PM on Jun 15:

I didn't think it was a rant... and if it was I hope to one day "rant" as intelligently as and seemingly calm as that one day. :D

I completely and totally agree with his advice and kept thinking that if the young man's pastor doesn't lovingly discipline this man and keep him accountable then maybe the young man needed to find another place to serve anyway. IMHO. :)

3. Matthew said the following at 12:22 PM on Jun 15:

I thought it was excellent counsel. We must deal severely with sin, as it is deadly to our souls, our ministry, our community, and our relationship with God!

I too have benefited from strong words from a friend, although sometimes when they were misplaced they hurt our friendship.

4. Patricia C said the following at 12:46 PM on Jun 15:

I didn't think it was a rant-- unless exhorting one another to take a serious step toward repentance is considered a rant nowadays. I would rant about the young man's grammar. Yeesh.

5. Brian K said the following at 12:58 PM on Jun 15:

John is spot on:
I'll be honest, most young Christian men in your situation are too selfish and cowardly to make the changes necessary to move forward. They keep talking about change, but never actually do anything about it

Kirk Cameron’s character, Caleb, in Fireproof gives a great, if not comical, outworking of making the changes necessary. I’ll say this to any single man. If you live with roommates, keep the computer in the open. If you live alone, stop internet at home and stick to coffee shops or the Library. Though when suggested, I have heard all kinds of elaborate justifications.

BTW, I feel for folks like Cathy (commenter on the discipline post) who have such a poor view of the biblical outworking of church discipline. But it is indicative of our current culture.

6. Adam said the following at 1:00 PM on Jun 15:

Hmmm... Considering this was directed towards a guy... this would not be a rant. It would merely be par for the course on Boundless.

Were the tables flipped and it were a girl in the same situation as the guy in this letter... then it would definitely be considered a rant.

There seems to be a definite tone difference between how mens and womens sexuality issues are dealt with.

7. eve said the following at 1:08 PM on Jun 15:

i thought john's reply was on-point. especially the last part where he tells the guy that if he's really serious, THIS is what he'll DO.

what's amazing to me, though, is that apparently up until this point no one around the Youth Leader who knew about the fact that he even had a girlfriend even said anything to him about that basic fact! "you have a girlfriend? oh! let's talk."

somehow, he has a girlfriend but isn't in a position to marry. why has no one challenged him on that alone? lol! why had he not been asked if he sees a precedent for that in the bible? or why he's chomping on the girl emotionally (which should have been clear to all by simply looking at them together) in a manner reserved for husbands though he's not at all a husband?

this is where some church communities go waayyy wrong: not having basic biblical christianity in place. or basic accountability in order.

8. Hannah C. said the following at 1:17 PM on Jun 15:

I wouldn't call Mr. Thomas' reply a rant either.

I do think some of his advice, namely what sounds like the complete breaking off of the relationship, is extreme. Accountability should definitely be gotten, soon, it should be major accountability, and he should not function as a leader until such time as the pastors approve. Same with her, though it's not clear whether she is in a leadership position. But guidance in the relationship and no time alone seems to me like a better way to go.

The worship leader at my church and his then-girlfriend, who was also on the worship team, messed up in a similar way once. I don't know any details, just that it was in such a way. They were convicted by the Holy Spirit, spoke to the pastor about it, and ended up repenting publicly in front of the church...which was a very moving Sunday!! (It's a small church and all the children were in children's church.) They were both then reinstated, became engaged soon afterwards, and are now married! I'm sure they had close accountability as well.

9. Brian K said the following at 1:18 PM on Jun 15:

In a similar manner, men with whom I meet will regularly admit "yes, I look at pornography." But then turn right around and say something like "but, you know, not the hard stuff." Wha……?!?!?!?! It often comes down to that issue of pride (cowardice as stated), of wanting to be the gods of our own world. We don’t like to be wrong, so calling something the sin that it is gets pushed aside (While I don’t agree with the bombastic manner*, Farmer Tom [in another post] mentions the outworking of that cowardly heart vis-à-vis language we use.).

* - can’t point to something that’s ostensibly wrong, just a gnawing hesitation

10. Frazer said the following at 1:20 PM on Jun 15:

His "rant" got me to thinking, why is it more young people don't get mad at our sin? I've been stuck in sin for some time and I really haven't got "mad" at it. I really should be ripping my computer from the wall, wipe the drive clean and cancel the internet service. (Matthew 5:29)

John's article may or may not have been a rant but I think it will speak to people like myself and make us really rethink how we live our lives.

11. Megan said the following at 1:35 PM on Jun 15:

I don't believe John Thomas' response qualifies as a rant ... although I am a little turned off to the whole article because of the writer's run-on sentences, poor grammar and sentence structure. It seems like it's written from a high schooler's perspective, one that's failing english.

I was also surprised by the response on Facebook to Boundless' link to this Q&A. Some of the readers responded "Why don't they just get married, that's an easy enough solution." My first thought was, have they even read Boundless?

That wouldn't really be a plausible "solution", would it? Wouldn't the act of intimacy carry all these issues into the marriage? Seems to me that's what Boundless has said for a while now.

12. Ashley said the following at 1:35 PM on Jun 15:

Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.
-Luke 17:33

When we are following Christ, there are times we are called to lose, and at times it may cost us our reputation. But if we don't and try to save it, we may be forfeiting our soul (maybe not for eternity if we're in Christ but we can temporarily allow ourselves to become slaves to sin ).

God has exposed David's sexual sin to every single person who has chosen to pick up the Bible and read about it. At some point all of our sins will be exposed for all to see. At that moment, the only person we will fear seeing it is the Holy Judge. Praise God that we who are in Christ will not be condemned at that moment. But while we are on this earth, we should pray hard for the grace to be less concerned about what men think of our sin and more concerned with what God thinks of it.

This guy is concerned with losing his position and his pastor's trust instead of remembering that the youth who are under him belong to the flock of the Great Shepherd, God Almighty, the One who will judge the living and the dead.

Sometimes the truth hurts. We should rather be cut and pruned by the Sword of the Spirit of truth than allow ourselves to be deeply wounded to the soul by sin.

13. obewan said the following at 1:41 PM on Jun 15:

I don't think it was a rant at all.

In fact, I am surprised this guy was not encouraged to step down from his position as a "youth leader" until his walk was stronger.

Heaven forbid what might happen if the youth group he "leads" finds out about what has been happening. But, then too, that is how church cover-ups come about. If he confessed, he might be placed under church discipline. Then some kind of public explanation might be required. In the end, the youth would be hurt.

14. Megan said the following at 2:25 PM on Jun 15:

I also wonder if others remember that the guy that wrote in is a human being? On Facebook (sorry, but there are many comments on Facebook), someone stated, "...this guys seems pretty messed up..."

I think we can all learn something from this guy: none of us are perfect. A lot of us are probably involved in ministry, and would HATE for anyone to know our darkest secrets. I know I would.

I'm really reminded of an entry posted on Stuff Christians Like:

http://stufffchristianslike.blogspot.com/2009/03/502-confessing-safe-sins.html

It talks about confessing safe sin. You know, like in Bible study or prayer group, you are going first. You confess that you don't read your Bible enough ... except the guy after you watches porn on a daily basis. He then conceals his sin because you confessed a safe sin. Afford someone with going second ... confess the hard stuff.

Is this guy really "messed up" or is he affording someone with going second?

15. Bill said the following at 2:32 PM on Jun 15:

I beg you to change your mind and edit the questions for readability. By the time I got to the end of that man's story and question, I was so frustrated with the rambling, incoherent and unstructured nature of it that I didn't even want to read the answer.

Even desperate men can write a coherent e-mail.

16. Keith said the following at 2:35 PM on Jun 15:

I read through the article and didn't perceive a "rant."

I think he does a really good job actually. I like the fact that he points out that God doesn't punish His children; he only disciplines them.

God has the best for all His children. Choosing to live a life of sexual sin is really denying ourselves the best in life. We may be deceived into thinking that God is holding something back, but in reality God only hold back those things that will hurt us severely in the long run.

Maybe the poster didn't have a loving father in his life, so maybe he perceives God as only being angry, and gets defensive. It is God's kindness, and not his anger, which leads us to repentence, and maybe he had a father in his life who was only angry all the time. Just a theory...

17. c. said the following at 3:01 PM on Jun 15:

I don't mind that the question was edited (or un-edited) in that way. And I agree that it did help to convey the guy's desperation. I like to read grammatical, well-punctuated sentences myself - but I didn't have a particularly hard time reading and understanding the question.
And somehow the 'rant' aspect of the answer escaped me as well... I didn't see it as a rant.

18. brachialplexus said the following at 3:06 PM on Jun 15:

"Warriors on the sidelines, watching the adventure go by, while they eat their stew."

I agree with Megan #14. Although I didn't read the comments of those on facebook, when I read the portion I quoted above it really grabbed a hold of me. So often in my own life I am the one who sits on the sidelines eating my stew. I wondered many times why the New Testament compared the sexually immoral and godless to Esau who wanted soup! That's pretty harsh right?! (Heb 12:16) I realized it wasn't about the soup, but about that momentary pleasure of filling his stomach Esau gave up His God given birth right. So whether it is sexual immorality, or over-eating, or any other indulgence that we may over look, it's no different to the guy who wrote the letter and it's no different to Esau. The Holy Spirit already reminded me of this today in my own life. Thanks John Thomas, your letter speaks to all of us. I hope I can be the warrior who is in the battle and contending for my faith. Oh man, it's not easy.

19. O from Canada said the following at 3:13 PM on Jun 15:

I also did not see the response as a rant, but as a good solid response. I agree with John Thomas that we don't get angry enough with sin, and it is something I have been seeing happen more in my life and that I am thankful for.

I pray that this young man is able to flee from sin and all its appearances and to do what God wants him to do.

20. Trevor Dolby said the following at 3:20 PM on Jun 15:

Megan (11): I think the Facebook people suggesting marriage are doing so because that's what appears in the Bible, in Deuteronomy 22 (and possibly other places). A young man in the letter-writer's position would have to marry the girl and never divorce her. However, I'm not sure where on Facebook this discussion took place, so I can't be sure that that's what they meant.

21. brx said the following at 3:29 PM on Jun 15:

Yes, "sometimes we need strong words to motivate us" but most times we need someone with the love, skill, and friendship to help us realize the destructive effects a particular behavior is having on our life; so, that it's revealed as the sin it is. Then, we need the helpful challenge to work and seek God's grace to overcome it.

Without exception, the churches in which I've seen leaders stumble badly in sin, are the ones that did not consider it very important to dedicate regular time for committed and intimate discipleship among the church leaders/staff/lay-ministers. Lack of it often leads to leaders feeling very alone in their struggles and burdens and unchecked sin as brothers/sisters are unaware of what is really going on in each others' lives. It's just too easy for us to get wrapped up in the business and production of doing church - and that misses the close friendship the early disciples had as they sought after Jesus.

Grace, peace & adventure is in Christ's challenge!

22. Mrs. Spit said the following at 3:38 PM on Jun 15:

I have to confess, perhaps my advice in the circumstances would have been more along the lines of

"either you marry her - within the next few months, or you break it off completely. Regardless of what you choose, the sex ends, now."

But rant? No - this young man asked a question, and he needed a blunt and honest appraisal of his situation, and perhaps more than that, a way out of it.

23. Rob said the following at 4:02 PM on Jun 15:

Am I the only person who upon reading the letter, felt really sorry for the guy?

If I were counseling the letter writer, I don't think I'd tell him to stop seeing his girlfriend. It sounds like they really care about each other, and most respects have a wonderful, healthy relationship -- indeed, that's the reason he's so tortured about "leading her into sin."

There are a lot of lonely people on this message board. Let's not be so quick to add to their numbers by urging this young man to break up with his girlfriend for the sake of purity.

It's easy to be in favor of purity as we sit at our computers as armchair philosophers, giving advice to someone on the other end of an internet connection. But in the end, purity is a poor substitute for a human connection. Purity doesn't laugh at your lame jokes, or give you a hug at the end of the day, or bring you a cup of tea when you're feeling sick.

If God is love, I think he wants us to love one another. I think he also wants us to be happy -- something that is almost impossible to do in the absence of meaningful relationships with others. That's why I think that telling this guy to stop seeing his girlfriend is a really bad idea.

24. Tami said the following at 5:00 PM on Jun 15:

Rob -- I understand where you're coming from, but in certain situations I think a time of separation can help people see more clearly.

I think John *is* encouraging the letter writer to gain strength and fellowship. This would be imperative especially (but not only) because he wants so desperately to serve in ministry. If the letter-writer uses the time intentionally and redemptively -- through prayer, and fellowship with godly men -- it can be a time of growth, restoration, and joy, rather than loneliness.

If the guy is trying to work through purity issues, having the girl around would make things *more* difficult, not less, as I see it. Time on his own would give the guy an opportunity to get stronger on his own, rather than making it easier to continually fall into the old pattern of habitual sin with her. And once the "hot" issue of lust subsided, he could see if the relationship itself really *was* one of true love, or if it's all based on his own selfish wants. Then he can change the nature of the relationship accordingly.

The notion of "separation" is why rehab and retreat centers are far away from everyday life. The intentional separation from our "normal patterns" can offer clarity and an opportunity to build newer, healthier patterns.

25. O from Canada said the following at 5:17 PM on Jun 15:

#23 Rob. If he and his girlfriend keep their distance as they settle their purity issues does that then mean he will be "alone"? I didn't necessarily interpret the advice as not having any more desire for each other, but as physically not seeing each other for the sake of purity.

"When your pastor thinks it's OK, if you want to pursue this girl as your wife, then do so biblically under close supervision

Yes he might feel lonely because he has gotten used to the unhealthy aspects of the relationship, but to live in sin because we might experience something that might not feel nice (including loneliness) is wrong.

You are basically saying what the article is condemning:

"Why won't they get violent with their sin? Why won't they rip the computer out of the wall? Why won't they burn the magazines? Why won't they break off the relationships? Why won't they repent in dust and ashes? Why won't they change?

Well, because it makes them feel so good."

...when you say he shouldn't stop seeing her because he might feel bad (lonely).

Do you also think that the response is advocating purity as a replacement for human connection? I personally didn't see that implication (if you did, please explain). What it is saying though is that we need to flee from things/people/situations that are causing us to sin.

I also sympathize with the writer because I can relate, but I can tell you that the advice given by John Thomas is definitely sound. I understand your compassion towards the writer, but correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like misplaced compassion.

Turning away from sin many times will not feel good, will not be fun and will require things like loneliness.

Lastly while I don't know the writer, he says he is a youth leader and trusted by his pastor and that in a sense implies he is a social guy. Therefore he should have other people that can help him through what could be a lonely time. If the only meaningful and close relationship he has is with his girlfriend then that in itself is a problem.

Even if he wasn't a social guy, avoiding loneliness wouldn't advocate standing at the door of temptation; in a position in which he has sinned and sinned again but this time expecting some sort of change.

26. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 5:22 PM on Jun 15:

Rob (#23).

You write that "purity is a poor substitute for human connection." I seriously hope that I'm misunderstanding your comment.

As the Bible teaches about purity, it is not a poor substitute for *anything.* Purity is simply what all Christians-- single, married, widowed, or divorced-- are called to in the Bible.

Purity is not in opposition to marriage and marital emotional/physical intimacy. Married Christians are called to be pure by only engaging in sexual intimacy (mental and physical) with their spouses. Unmarried Christians are called to be pure by not engaging in mental/physical sexual intimacy with any member of the opposite sex until marriage.

I am confused as to why you think that this couple has a wonderful, healthy relationship. They have been continually giving in to sexual sin with each other and have not been accountable to others in their church about their sin. This doesn't necessarily mean that their relationship has to utterly end, but it does indicate that there is some serious unhealthiness in the relationship at the present time (if we can say that sin is unhealthy, which we can-- in fact, "unhealthy" is an understatement. Sin is open rebellion against God's commands to us).

They say that they love each other, but they aren't *acting* in a loving way by sinning against each other and God with their sexuality. Love is much more than a feeling. It is ultimately a choice to be committed to the other person's highest good. Neither person in this couple has been making that choice-- at least in the area of sexuality.

27. Kyle said the following at 5:26 PM on Jun 15:

Rob (#23),

I hear what you are saying, and my heart certainly goes out to this young man. At the same time, I don't believe separation from his girlfriend will cause the young man to endure an absence of meaningful relationships. I would venture to say that meaningful ties with mature Christian men would be of great benefit to his heart and spirit.

In pursuing romantic relationships, we (meaning men) often position the woman as a cure to what ails us, a living solution to our hearts' wants and desires. Through women, we often seek illegitimate remedies for legitimate needs. This is why sexual intimacy becomes such a stumbling block, because the intimacy we truly need goes hand in hand with a deep level of commitment, the likes of which many men would rather not sacrificially give (to other people or even to God). The intimacy we desire at our core requires a depth of trust and investment that mere sex does not. Until we can deny the flesh and learn to feed the spirit, we will only experience the emptiness that comes with consuming forbidden fruit. It never quite fills the space we think it will.

I have had to look myself in the mirror and see the wretch I've been, allowing sexual sin to enter in and cloud my senses. The potential to repeat those missteps is not worth remaining in the presence of the woman who is a partner in those indulgences. The time spent apart can be a powerful time for growth and maturation.

28. Leah said the following at 5:27 PM on Jun 15:

I didn't think it was a rant. It seemed quite calm to me; blunt and strong, yes, but not a rant.

Bill (15) - desperate men can write a coherent email, yes, but it's sadly a fact that many young people these days apparently can't write coherently. I write this as a 21-year-old journalism graduate and self-confessed grammar nazi, and it drives me nuts. I have to admit the facebook group "I judge you when you use bad grammar" is very accurate for me.

29. Jeremy said the following at 5:35 PM on Jun 15:

"If God is love, I think he wants us to love one another. I think he also wants us to be happy -- something that is almost impossible to do in the absence of meaningful relationships with others. That's why I think that telling this guy to stop seeing his girlfriend is a really bad idea."

To repeat (or possibly paraphrase) an oft-quoted ... quote, God's priorty is not for you to be happy, it is for you to be holy. Compromising holiness for the sake of happiness is the very definition of sin.

30. Trisha said the following at 6:05 PM on Jun 15:

Even if your computer is out in the open (when you live with roommates or family) they still need to hold you accountable on your internet usage.

31. john ko said the following at 6:09 PM on Jun 15:

i think the young man is very tragic but in our very post-modern driven culture i believe we must be very careful and not simply let our feelings for him to cloud our thinking. he has sinned and we must help him be restored to God. we must love the sinner and hate the sin. but esp as a Christian leader it's imperative he really repent fully.

i think the admonishments were very fair and well-balanced. it's the truth and it hurts a little bit but i believe to honor God and these 2 people it would be the correct path to take.

I do have one big question though - where are the leaders and fellow brothers who should be helping hold this brother accountable? as a leader i believe he should be held to a greater level of transparency and accountability. If i were his brother i would also feel the great burden for myself for having failed to be a mirror of truth and a source of love for him.

my comments are not to judge this brother but to make a clear judgment of the situation. thank you for these refreshing posts.

32. Trisha said the following at 6:13 PM on Jun 15:

Also he is setting a bad and unGodly example to the youth at church.

33. Kelly said the following at 7:19 PM on Jun 15:

Just wanted to echo the thoughts of others: that he should be encouraged to marry her. Of course, they need to stop sinning and repent, but marriage would be the best outcome.

After all, in a sense, they are already married. (OT.)

Also, from the comments I've seen on Christian websites, many men who have themselves maintained a line of purity will NOT consider a "non-pure" woman as a potential wife. This guy might be her only chance to marry a Christian.

34. Mike said the following at 8:04 PM on Jun 15:

Rob (#23) wrote:

Am I the only person who upon reading the letter, felt really sorry for the guy?

No, you're not. And I, for one, am quite frankly more than a little peeved with the other responses here.

You have a young man who is struggling with his sin and all he gets is, "Snap out of it! Shape up! Get it together!"

What is this? Boot camp?

I'm sick and tired of the Christian community treating men who have problems with stoning. John Eldredge is right: We don't need policemen with batons, whacking us around when we screw up. We need brothers in arms who will stand beside us and lift us up when we need help.

"Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work: If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up!" (Ecclesiastes 4:9 - 10)

This young man specifically states he's afraid to talk to anyone. Well, no wonder. He says something, and he gets called "cowardly" and "selfish" by the people he goes to for help. Fat lot of help that is.

Paul himself said he struggled - "So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me." (Romans 7:21) None of us is free from this struggle.

It's one thing to call sin sin. It's another to kick a man when he's down.

Ask yourself this: If you were struggling in this way, would you want help, or a two-by-four upside the head?

I'm very disappointed with this post, and with the comments so far.

Motte wrote a post not too long ago about how the church has a tendency to have accountability groups for men, and support groups for women. Seems nothing has changed.

A warrior should be able to go to a fellow warrior for counsel - and know that his brother in arms will stand up beside him, not stab him in the back.

You want to talk about sitting on the sidelines? What about getting in the game and offering some help to this fellow instead of throwing rocks?

The fundamental attitude that's being displayed here is, "You're a weak loser, buddy, and you just need to get your act together." And that attitude stinks.

(Oh, and Rob - thanks for being the lone voice of grace so far on this post!)

35. Jack said the following at 8:30 PM on Jun 15:

John's advice was right on. When involved in this sin there must be radical amputation of temptation, repentance and accountability. I think this youth pastor is already taking the right steps by seeking help and asking a good source of help at that.

It's tough being bombarded with sex and resisting sexual temptation in today’s world. I would like to share a link that will help those struggling with sexual sin. Check out http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/courses/way-of-purity/ -- it is a free biblically-based online course that will help walk you though the steps John mentioned.

36. Emily said the following at 9:04 PM on Jun 15:

Rob: Nowhere in scripture does God say He wants us to be happy while living in sin.. He desires us to be holy. (1 Peter 1:15-16) I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but I thought the counsel was a little soft on the guy. I wouldn't immediately & automatically assume this was a true believer.. a true convert. If someone is living in persistent sin such as this, they should indeed examine themselves to see if they are in the faith. (2 Cor. 13:5) He does genuinely seem to want to change, but is it wordly sorrow (2 cor. 7:9,10), feeling remorse for earthly consequences, or godly sorrow leading to repentance? (due to having sinned against a Holy God, not just feeling bad for the act). The question, like John Thomas rightly addressed is... is this man willing to do what it takes to repent from this serious sin? My heart goes out to him, too, but we all must treat sin very seriously. It would be good for him to read through Psalm 51 and make it his own prayer... and good for all of us, too. It sounds to me in his email that he is being driven by his emotions of feeling "in love" and "attached", instead of being driven by the word of God. He said he felt powerless.. shouldn't be the case in a believer's life. I've been there. Going back to sexual sin over and over, and "repenting" over and over, but it ended up I wasn't a Christian after all, I just went to church. I didn't yet have godly sorrow over my sin leading me to repentance, which is only by God's grace.

37. Kathryn said the following at 9:19 PM on Jun 15:

I've been a youth leader and struggling with having sex with my boyfriend at the same time too.

I resigned from my ministry, because as a leader, I should be above reproach! Also, it meant that I didn't get that whole extra guilt feeling when I went to the youth services and tried to teach them about abstaining. That burden removed from my life, I could then fix my energies on booting the sin out of my life.

The next few months was this process of shutting the non-Christian guy out of my life and working on purity. It took a few months, but all other burdens out of my life meant that I could focus on that goal. I had an excellent accountability partner and three years later, I'm still sexually pure.

38. Ted Slater said the following at 9:38 PM on Jun 15:

Mike (#34) -- nobody is "stoning" this young man. From what I can tell, we are by-and-large very concerned that this church leader is engaging in unrepentant sexual sin -- which defrauds and damages his girlfriend and those over whom he has a degree of spiritual authority.

What he is doing is very, very serious, and he must stop now. The young man recognizes the seriousness of what he is doing, and John has given him strong counsel on how to escape it.

This is **redemptive** counsel, meant to bring him back into fellowship. It is not destructive counsel, meant to throw him out of fellowship. Check out John's first two paragraphs to understand the difference -- not "punishment," but "discipline."

Of course, as Scripture says, no discipline is pleasant at the time....

So in a sense this young man *should* be afraid to tell those around him what he's doing. *We* are safe -- we can't hold him accountable for his sin. But those who know him -- his pastor and friends and family -- they will have him step down from leadership and will walk through the painful/joyful process of repentance with him. That is a scary place to be, a vulnerable place to be. He *should* be kind of scared. His life as he knows it must change; and it will change if he wants to pursue godliness.

On the other hand, he should *not* be afraid. He should not fear people, and what they think of him. What can we do, after all? As Jesus said in Luke 12:4-5:

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

It's better, after all, to lose an eye or a hand or respect ... and enter into heaven than to carry on in your sin and break fellowship with the Lord.

What this man is doing is very serious. The counsel is likewise very serious. His soul is at stake here.

39. Megan said the following at 9:40 PM on Jun 15:

I want to clarify what I meant in my comment (#11). When I asked if marriage would be a plausible "solution", it seemed as if there were a few commenters that felt it would just be OK for them to jump into marriage. That would be a horrible decision because neither of them would be able to get back on track with Christ in a reasonable environment. I know this from experience.

Marriage is a commitment that a professing Christian should enter into with another professing Christian, both walking as close to Christ. Why would said couple set themselves up for trouble? How would each party be able to trust the other when neither could enter into marriage immediately with purity of mind and body? Obviously, no one does, but this couple is at the other end of the spectrum.

Maybe the guy "should" marry her, but not now.

40. Adam said the following at 10:10 PM on Jun 15:

In defense of Rob #23...

When I read the Bible, I see balancing truths. For instance, I see that God is a just God. Yet He is merciful and gracious. There is a balance between faith and works. We are also to have faith in God. Yet God even encourages us to test him in at least one area (Mal 4).

Sin is wrong. There are many points in Scripture which talk about radically removing what causes us to sin - to the point of amputation and even death.

Is there a balancing truth? I would argue "yes". I would submit that we are not to remove ourselves from the world. We are not supposed to place ourselves in a Christian bubble with removal of anything that could remotely cause or encourage sin. The Great Commission requires us to actually be involved in the world. And being involved in the world opens up a possibility of sinning.

Now, lets bring this to the young man's situation. Here we have a young man seeking after God who fell into sin. I think that having the couple break up is a poor solution. I would put it in a similar vein as a father giving his kids up for adoption because some of their actions cause him to get angry. Yeah, it removes the possibility of the sin, but is a poor solution.

Are there some practical steps that can be taken? Yes. Get some accountability. Avoid spending time alone in places where sex is a real option.

41. Sadie said the following at 11:38 PM on Jun 15:

While my heart goes out to this young man and his girlfriend, I too want to rant a bit and tell him to "man up". I also want to beg him to get help, we are not meant to live life without people around to help, no man is an island. As a female who has dealt with sexual sin I know the importance of seeking Godly counsel, mentors and accountability. Repentance is a hard thing yet the freedom that can come after a struggle will make a person's spirit soar.

42. Leah said the following at 12:13 AM on Jun 16:

I have been a kids' ministry leader for 4 years now. One of my best friends was too, for 2 years. Her boyfriend started spending a lot of time at her house, and was often there late into the night and then was there early the next morning to take her to work. Our youth/kids ministry coordinator approached her and pointed out that he often drove past (she lived just off a busy road) and noticed her boyfriend's car in the driveway at these odd hours. He said while he might believe her that they weren't sleeping together, a parent may drive past and also see his car there and come to a different conclusion. He said that as kids' leaders we need to be completely accountable and ultimately the blame comes to rest on him if one of the leaders under his direction is brought into disrepute, and we can't even look like we might be doing something wrong.

Well she completely flipped out at him. His side of the story was that he called her and tried to explain it to her calmly and she ranted and hung up on him. Her side of the story is that he carried on and yelled at her, acting "like a child who had his lolly taken away" and that *he* hung up on *her*. My experience is that I've never seen him ever yell at anybody (not even his kids), whereas I do know that she can become extremely defensive and accusing when she feels like someone is accusing her of something. (I've been on the receiving end of it several times).

She ended up leaving the leadership team and then leaving the church, taking her boyfriend with her. She said she felt she could not show her face around there again because the coordinator had "rubbished" her in front of the rest of the leadership team (even though she had not been present at the meeting where he explained to us that she'd left). In actual fact, he was the most courteous I've ever heard him speak about a person who's behaved so badly.

Two years later they have not joined another church and are living together (along with his cousin). She claims they do not sleep together, which might be true, and might not be.

Just an illustration of how careful we as leaders need to be in our actions, to be above reproach... and how badly some can react when they need to be reminded about that.

43. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 12:44 AM on Jun 16:

Mike (#34),

I don't know whose comments you were referring to, specifically, but you will not find "Snap out of it! Shape up! Get it together!" anywhere in my previous comment, because such counsel is worldly and relies on our own strength (or lack thereof) in order to deal with sin. We are all "weak losers" in our sin, but Christ has won the war, and with His righteousness counted to us, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, we are called to battle our indwelling sin.

The young man and his girlfriend may truly love each other, but the sad fact is, as I wrote above, they are not *acting* in a loving way by sinning against God and against each other with their sexuality.

Calling this couple to repentance and accountability in their local church is *not* an unloving, graceless action. It is a very loving action, because sin is destructive to oneself and to others. God's loving grace is a grace which loves us, partially, by calling us to bring our sin into the light and to repent of it.

44. Jen said the following at 3:10 AM on Jun 16:

Regarding the comments about whether they should get married because they've had sex; can I just say I'm really glad that not everyone does this?

Because if so, my fiance would have married his ex-girlfriend 8 years ago, and would have been stuck in a loveless, emotionally destructive marriage that led him away from Christ.

Nor would he be marrying me this year. I think hormones can be a rather powerful force making people think that God wants a particular thing when really, he has something else planned!

That said, I do feel sorry for this guy but it sounds like he's stuck in a bit of a rut. He does need a wakeup call, and he does need to resign from ministry (temporarily at least). I think we go through seasons - if we're growing, maturing and full of the Spirit, we're in a position to give back and help other people, but sometimes we can be down and out, struggling with sin and miserable - and that's when we need to rely on God and draw upon other people. Continuing to give and serve when we just can't isn't good for anyone (you OR the people you're ministering to).

45. Trevor Dolby said the following at 3:23 AM on Jun 16:

Rob (23) said

"But in the end, purity is a poor substitute for a human connection. Purity doesn't laugh at your lame jokes, or give you a hug at the end of the day, or bring you a cup of tea when you're feeling sick"

That is so true, as is most of the rest of what you and Mike (34) wrote.

The purity-loneliness aspect is not the only one, however. Getting involved with an impure woman is described in Proverbs: her lips drip honey, but in the end she is bitter as wormwood. That is one of the few things worse than being alone because of your desire for purity: being alone in the end anyway, having lost your integrity along the way!

In this case, we don't know if the girl is the "virgin" of Deuteronomy 22, in which case marriage is clearly indicated, or if the letter-writer is just guy number 37 on the girl's list, in which case marriage would be most unwise.

Megan (39) is right to advise against jumping into marriage, but the two alternatives are plain: marriage, or staying away from each other.

46. Mike said the following at 3:42 AM on Jun 16:

Ted (#38) wrote:

From what I can tell, we are by-and-large very concerned that this church leader is engaging in unrepentant sexual sin...This is **redemptive** counsel, meant to bring him back into fellowship. It is not destructive counsel, meant to throw him out of fellowship.

Sorry, Ted, but that's not how it looks from this side. First off, this man seems very repentant - or at least very conflicted. He speaks of wanting to kill himself; is extremely regretful that he is "hindering her". It sounds like to me that he's been trying to "white knuckle" his way out of this problem for a long time, and isn't getting anywhere. Well, duh. He needs help.

He's a bruised reed, and instead of getting healing, he gets snapped off at ground level by being told he should...get it together and just stop. Well, if he could do that, he would have already!

My main objection is to that attitude: That he's on his own. "Just do it" is a Nike commercial, not Christian community.

Accountability needs to be something loving and helpful, not punitive. "I'm going to help you with this" instead of "I'm going to whack you when you get out of line". That's still discipline, and it's still not fun - because it thwarts the sin nature - but that's a brother in arms. Calling the guy a "coward" or "selfish" because he's afraid is the worst kind of gracelessness. However it was meant, it comes across as cruel and judgmental.

He needs to be brought out of his fear to stand in the light. "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed." (James 5:16) But he needs to know that he will still be loved if he takes that courageous step. It's not redemptive to crush the bruised reed and then walk away.

What I hear here isn't redemption. It's condemnation. And that, quite frankly, ticks me off. That's not the sort of attitude that's going to encourage people to confess their sins.

If he wants to quit doing what he's doing but hasn't found the strength or the guidance, he should be commended for the desire rather than scolded for failing. We can still hold people to high standards, but it should be done lovingly and in an atmosphere of safety. Otherwise, they will simply leave the church because they never see the love of Christ.

47. Lady Akofa said the following at 4:03 AM on Jun 16:

A rant? I didn't read it as such. I think John's advice was great.

Really, the guy and lady need to literally cool that fire down, aka... place limitations on their relationship for a while and sort themselves out; each with an accountability partner.

To the guy: God is gracious and merciful and is ever ready to help you. But be willing to be ruthless when it comes to addressing the sin and with the Holy Spirit's help you'll be able. If there is a poisonous snake in your room, I'm sure you will do everything you can to strike it dead. Likewise, seek all the help you can in dealing with this issue.

Not easy but can be done.

48. Amir Larijani said the following at 6:01 AM on Jun 16:

:::switching sarcasm mode to ON:::

Oh come on, folks! The issue is not whether there is sin involved, but rather the state of mind of the individual committing the sin. The self-esteem if you will.

We must serve as facilitators to reconcile men and women with their feelings, and help them develop healthy opinions of themselves.

That would allow them to enjoy the experience of human sexuality without the guilt imposed by those narrow-minded fundamentalists.

We need to be more constructive, sensitive to the feelings of people involved, and not judgmental. After all, this epidemic of sexual repression will only make the problem worse. Instead, we must be conveyors of hope, because without hope there can be no change.

:::switching sarcasm mode to OFF:::

Seriously, folks, while I was exaggerating, it is only a small step from making a small compromise with Biblical sexuality to endorsing full-blown perversion with no regard for the truth.

And anyone who thinks this is merely about sex, is far too narrow.

Sexual sin involves embracing the heart of paganism--fomented in rebellion against God--and attacks creation.

In Ted's case, it was not merely about pursuing an unauthorized relationship; it was also undermining the honor of parents, which encourages rebellion if left unaddressed.

(If the Church had turned and looked the other way, it would not have ended well for either Ted, his then-g/f, or any children they may have eventually had. The Law of Unintended Consequences is alive and well and applies to all manner of human relationships.)

Some folks might argue for a, "Well...they are adults, so it's no one else's business" line, but that dog won't hunt here. Especially when you are dealing with believers.

Marriage is a covenant. A covenant involves (a) an agreement between a stronger and weaker party, (b) terms and conditions, (c) the presence of witnesses, (d) the shedding of blood, and (e) fellowship among the parties to the covenant.

This is a lot more than two people deciding they want to have sex the rest of their lives.

49. LouiseinPA said the following at 6:45 AM on Jun 16:

I don't think the comment was a rant but I agree with Meagan (39) that marriage right now would be a mistake. If they aren't on track with God, how will their marriage succeed? I'm not sure the couple should either break up or get married. I fiancee and I initially had some issues with purity when we started dating but repented and dated for another year without falling into sexual sin before becoming engaged. So, I think purity can be established without ending the relationship.

50. H.A.P. said the following at 7:09 AM on Jun 16:

Has anyone complaining about the editing considered that this man first language is not English? I'm glad that it wasn't edited farther. His meaning was clear. I'm praying for him.

51. Dan Gill said the following at 7:21 AM on Jun 16:

I don't think it's a rant. It is good advice that might not go far enough. It's one thing to say, "Stop it!" It's another to provide help to those struggling to leave behind a pattern of sin.

It's possible that he just doesn't have the guts to leave the sexual relationship, and that someone encouraging him to do so will help. But it's also possible that he's a broken, hurting person trying (in vain) to cover up his hurt with sex. His girlfriend might be in the same boat.

Yes, they need to split up, at least for a time. Yes, they need to repent and leave their sin. But they probably need more help than they have at the moment.

Of course, there is not much any of us can do without actually knowing the folks involved. They need brothers and sisters to stand with them and against the sin. You can't do that in a letter or a blog post.

52. Louise from Chicago said the following at 7:34 AM on Jun 16:

This reminds of the saying that insanity may be defined by continuing the same actions but expecting a different result.

If the young man who wrote the letter (I find it highly interesting that is used the lower case "i"...) wants a different result i.e. celibacy out of marriage, he'll have to change his actions.

53. Liz said the following at 8:41 AM on Jun 16:

I really liked John Thomas's response, and did not find it to be a "rant" at all--I thought it was honest, respectful and compassionate (but still firm).

What I did not like (aside from the letter-writer's cringe-inducing punctuation), was the letter-writer's focus on his girlfriend's purity.

"I'm leading her into sin"? "I want her in white"? (yuck)

I understand that he might think it's noble or backwardly romantic to show such deep concern for his girlfriend's sexual sin, but I would have advised him to focus on his OWN purity issues and let his girlfriend take responsibility for the choices she's made.

54. Ted Slater said the following at 9:10 AM on Jun 16:

Mike (#46) -- Yes, I agree with you that this man seems conflicted. He is feeling the strong arm of the Lord's conviction, and after resisting the Lord for so long is at his breaking point. He may fall away from the Lord, he may kill himself, and so on. Living a duplicitous life, he's finding, is terribly difficult.

Remember that this young man is not just any young man, but is a "youth leader." James 3:1 points out that "we who teach will be judged with greater strictness" -- and this young man needs to realize that.

Nobody is telling him to "just stop." John is challenging him to do specific things: break off his relationship (at least for now), confess his sins to his pastor and defer to his judgment, step down from church leadership, and so on.

And nobody has called him a "coward" or "selfish." John said that "most young Christian men in your situation are too selfish and cowardly to make the changes necessary to move forward." The question is: Will this young man be the exception? Is he up for the challenge? I think he may be, which proves that he is *not* selfish and cowardly, but a man.

John's is strong and redemptive counsel. I pray that this young leader in the church take it.

What advice would you give him? Specifically?

And when Jesus made a whip and threatened people with is, was that "the love of Christ"? When he called people "vipers" and "white-washed tombs," was that "the love of Christ"? And when Paul demanded in 1 Cor. 5 that a man be expelled from the church posthaste because of his particular sexual sin, was that "the love of Christ"? Sometimes, as they say, love must be tough. This church leader engaged in secret sexual sins must be tough-loved.

55. Tami said the following at 9:20 AM on Jun 16:

Before we get too caught up in equating purity with isolationism, I just want to say: I think purity is actually about *right* relationship with God and others. This doesn't mean we have to be Pharisees who legislate and isolate ourselves into our own idea of purity.

As others have said, I don't see anyone here suggesting the young man should go hide and never relate to anyone. I think they're suggesting he step away so that he learns *how to* relate, within the context of healthy male relationships.

And as I wrote earlier... sometimes it's best for us (I include myself here!) to step away and re-learn godly, healthy patterns of relationship before we try to enter one so serious as a dating/marital one.

Of course it's painful to separate yourself from someone you love. I am sure that many of us -- even those of us who are commenting and advocating a time of separation -- have felt that pain, for one reason or another. But sometimes God uses it to develop Christ's likeness in us, and that *is* His primary goal.

56. Maggie said the following at 10:30 AM on Jun 16:

I agreed with John's response and found it well-though-out. As a volunteer youth leader, I appreciate the exhortation to live a pure life.

Some of these comments, however, are offensive and/or hurtful. Trevor (#45), the young man felt that he had led his girlfriend to sin. Yes, she is responsible for her own actions (thanks Liz, #53), but he himself admitted that he was in the wrong, so the claim that he shouldn't marry her because of her sin is uncalled for and ridiculous. You seem to be suggesting that he should avoid her as a "loose woman" -- are they not guilty of the same sin??

Another commenter suggested the young man marry the woman as she may never find another Christian husband. That is really hurtful and pretty discouraging to those of us who have come from non-Christian backgrounds and left wilder lives to live for Christ. Boundless should be a place of grace not judgement. Those comments were out of line.

57. Anonymous said the following at 3:26 PM on Jun 16:

I post here on occassion under my name, but in this situation I will leave it as anonymous . . .

Firstly, John Thomas' advice was not a rant. It was needed. Sometimes strong words get the point across in a way "beating around the bush" never will - especially when the sttrong words come with love and a desire to see person come to repentance.

Second, as a youth leader, it may be hard to do these things because of the trust that has been placed in him and a feeling of letting people down who have trusted him. But, it is important to do so if he truly wants to "make things right."
From experience, I know that it can be incredibly hard to be a leader in a position where you are teaching others when you know you have an area of sin in your life. I worked as summer camp staff when I knew that my boyfriend (who was not on staff) and I were doing things we shouldn't be, and as the summer passed it became harder and harder to reconcile it all in my head. It was hard, but with a couple of weeks left in the summer I did go and talk to the camp directors about it - the last conversation I ever pictured having with someone since I grew up as the "good church kid". But, despite how difficult that conversation was, it gave me accountability when the end of summer came (the camp was quite close to my hometown) and the encouragement I needed to take the steps I needed to for things to change. It was hard - I missed being in a cabin with the campers those last two weeks, as I moved into more of a maintenance role for the rest of the summer - but now . . . it was worth it all. I needed it.

I also think that the potential good that can come out of all of this is huge. Thinking about an experience I had this past fall where a leader in the young adult ministry at my church resigned to deal with issues that had come in his marriage relating to sin in his life. He was incredible at the job he was doing, and no one was excited about seeing him go. But, he was honest about things and put his family and walk with God first, and I know now that he has more respect among the church body and specifically among those he has been ministering to before than he ever has. To see a leader that is willing to admit their own sins/failures and then take the necessary steps to change things is encouraging to others.

58. MaTee said the following at 3:28 PM on Jun 16:

Rant. I don't care what emotion you've said it in-I'm only interested in the content of what you've said. Rant merely means 'frustrated person at the brink' to me.
Frustration and sexuality are often skipping down the lane together. 'Hormone Highway', right? "Nananana-you can't have it! And there's this peculiar child (of all people)inside of us that explodes in rage. It's not fair! This is torture, why, God?)
The pair bond is the strongest, most potent attraction there is-second only to our hunger and longing for communion, our attraction to God Himself. We live in an age where we understand that our brains are electrical, chemical and attraction happens with scent we are not conscious of perceiving. A little less than two thousand years ago, this whole, driven, soft machine was described as 'the flesh'. MRI's just bear more witness to the fact that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made".
How does one drive this incredible, ummm...container, which has so much potential to destroy everthing and everybody in its path? There is only one things to do-throw yourself at the feet of JESUS, son, and hand Him over that helm. Same applies for girls. Surrender! He knows who we are, and how helpless. Admit you're helpless. What's done is done. If you really want this young woman for wife, why don't the two of you get busy on some projects together (under the supervision of a solid couple older than yourselves)that produce results? A financial project, a garden project. Go to a public, indoor track and run together (maybe with another couple). What you're going to discover is that the urge thing will diminish; don't put it back into place. You're going to spend most of your married lives working as a team anyway-that's the skill set you need to cultivate right now. Fill the void where you've knocked the sexual bond out of timing with something good now, don't just wait around for the chemicals to flood back in.

59. Craig M. said the following at 3:34 PM on Jun 16:

Agreed with Maggie (#56) one-hundred percent. This modern infatuation with virginity, per se, rather than right conduct going forward, is baseless. Two-hundred years ago people commonly lived through 3, 4, 5 marriages, due largely to death. A 28-year-old woman seeking marriage was most likely to be a widow, not a virgin. Neither man nor woman is less valuable for having engaged in prior sexual intercourse--and the obsession with virginity is cultural, almost pagan, not Christian. That's not to say that sexual activity outside of marriage isn't properly the subject of censure. But a right heart and right conduct are what should matter, not one's sexual "status."

60. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 3:57 PM on Jun 16:

Amir (#48),

The "sarcasm mode" part of your comment is, tragically, exactly what passes for "Biblical counsel" in many church communities and counseling offices. Of course, you already know this, or you wouldn't have labeled it as sarcastic!

When will the church at large realize that our biggest problem, as sinners, is not how we think and feel about *ourselves,* but rather, how we think and feel about *God*?

We think about and love ourselves far too much already; we need to think more of God and take *His* love more seriously. Even the "low self-esteem" that is talked about in many churches today is actually a dark, subtle form of pride, because it often comes out of thinking that we "should" have something different than what God has given us (and/or sovereignly allowed to us) in life.
In our sinfulness, we deserve Hell. That God has shown us mercy means that we have gotten much better than we deserve.

(This is not to say that it is morally right when people sin against us... but as Christians, we should recognize that low self-esteem, in the psychological sense, is actually a form of *self-exaltation.*)

This young man and his girlfriend do need "healing" of a sort (because sin is destructive), but it is the healing that can only begin with personal repentance and accountability to brothers and sisters in their local church.

61. Mike said the following at 4:50 PM on Jun 16:

Dan Gill (#51) wrote:

BINGO!

Look, I spent nearly 30 years as a sex addict (in my case, pornography was the problem). Sex can seem like a great salve for a hurting soul, especially for a man. Reading between the lines of this fellow's letter, I'm hearing a lot of hurt.

Ted (#54):

My primary objections to John's advice are first, that it leaves the young man assuming that he must make these changes on his own, and second, that it's overly harsh (IMO). You're splitting hairs when you say that he's not being called a "coward", but just being compared with "most men who are too cowardly". That's basically saying, "If you DON'T do this, you're a coward." What's the difference? Not much.

You asked what advice I would give. First, I would point out that he needs to be in relationship before he attempts to tackle this. He needs a close friend (same-sex) on whom he can rely, a Godly man who will not abandon him when told the truth about his struggle. The primary fear the person caught in sexual sin feels is not so much the fear of man to which you alluded earlier, but a close cousin: the fear of abandonment. He must feel that there is at least one supportive person on whom he can lean.

Then, once he has shared his struggle with that person, he has an anchor. Now, he can begin to explore the question: What is the unmet need that is driving him to this unhealthy relationship? Why can't he break free? (That's another thing I really resented about John's answer; it implies that he's just staying in sin because he likes it, not because it's a compulsion. John doesn't know that.) The temptation is feeding an unmet need of some sort. I don't know what it is; he may not know what it is himself. It may even take professional counseling to find out. But until that underlying need is revealed, taken to the Lord, and healed, he's going to continue to struggle with this, whether with this girl or another. Or maybe with some other medicating habit, whether it be alcohol, or something worse.

Now, to be fair, much of John's advice is still sound. He does need to separate himself from any situation in which he could repeat the sinful behavior. He is in serious danger; I absolutely agree. And he is a leader in the church, who must be held to a higher standard than those he leads. Basically, I'm okay with the last two paragraphs of John's column. What I'm objecting to is not so much the content of the advice, but its tone and attitude.

Love must sometimes be tough, I agree. But Jesus wasn't calling people who were honestly trying to change "vipers", "whitewashed tombs", or "hypocrites". He saved that for self-righteous people who weren't interested in seeing their own sin.

Will it take courage for this young man to change? From personal experience, I can confidently say, absolutely YES! But if he comes to the Body for help and gets whacked around the head, we might just lose him permanently. I, for one, would rather that not happen.

Peace.

62. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:42 PM on Jun 16:

Maggie (56): I'm puzzled about my "claim that he shouldn't marry her because of her sin" - no such claim was made in post 45, which dealt largely with reasons for and against the two people marrying . . .

If she is indeed a "loose woman" (and not an ex-"loose woman"), then the Bible does have quite a lot to say about that, and I can't think of anywhere advising marriage to such unless so ordered by God (Hosea). However, we can't know that for certain from what's been written, so I covered both possibilities. It's remarkably difficult to offer any opinion on this sort of thing without knowing the people personally, just by reading a letter.

My main point was that there are worse things than immediate loneliness caused by a break-up, in respone to Rob (23). A marriage with a divorce after a few years leaves you just as alone, and with more to deal with.

I believe my final statement of the two alternatives was correct, also: it simply added to John Thomas's original advice the possiblity of marriage, because that's what I read in the Bible.

63. Adam said the following at 5:48 PM on Jun 16:

Hey Everyone!

As far as a "rant," I don't know. I thought that the advice presupposes a whole lot. For example, I know many people who get rid of internet access, burn magazines, and yet, still struggle with sexual temptation. I think the reason is because we sin because we are sinners, not that we are sinners because we sin. That is the problem. You can do all of those things, and yet, have it still not work.

Also, removing yourself from this girl's presence won't help because what is done is done. Memory is just as powerful as presence.

The real issue here is that, while we can do all of the things mentioned in the article, it requires a renewing of our mind, something that we cannot do for ourselves. In fact, it may be better to say that all of this is a process. I know people who struggle on this issue, and, although they are repentant, they have struggled for years.

Also, the fact that this man is in the ministry makes this issue more difficult. There is a difference, however, in my mind, with someone who is open with their struggles while fighting them daily, and someone who hides their struggles, and gets caught. I don't believe that God requires a man to be perfect in order to enter the ministry. I do think he requires him to be repentant when he sins, and struggle to fight his sin day by day. That is why, as a Presbyterian, I would also say that there needs to be a plurality of elders so that, when this situation comes up, there are people there to help him to do exactly that, namely, fight his sin day by day.

While it is true that teachers will be held to a higher standard, we also need to recognize that we could pretty much use the same language of any teacher, since everyone is a sinner. Where does that get us though? It means that no one can teach. Yes, most certainly we are to call people to repentance for their sin. No question about it. However, we need to do it as Paul says:

2 Timothy 2:24-26 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

It is interesting that, in 1 Corinthians 5, when Paul had that man thrown out of the church, the church would not let him back. In 2 Corinthians, after repentance was offered, Paul had to write to the church again to tell them to let him back. I think what is being said is that we must stand upon the principles of God's word, but do so in a gentle and patient fashion, working and helping those in this situation.

So, after all of that, what do I think? I think that John was right to tell him he needed to get help for this, as well as to get accountablility. However, I also think that John's analysis of the situation of premarital sex and pornography is overly simplistic, and his language lacked the consideration of the commandment of 2 Timothy 2:24-26. We are not dealing with the Scribes and Pharasees who think they do not need any grace, and think that it is okay to be inwardly impure, and externally have the appearance of holiness while teaching others to be exactly the same way. We are dealing with a man who clearly sees his need for grace. We are dealing with a brother in Christ who needs help, in the context of a sin he may very well be fighting the rest of his life. In that context, I don't agree with the way John said this.

God Bless,
Adam

64. Trevor Dolby said the following at 6:00 PM on Jun 16:

Craig M (59): I think there's a difference between widowhood and immorality - Jesus himself makes that distinction at least once. The old testament (hardly pagan) seems to concern itself with virginity . . .

On the more general point, there's an interesting article from a while back (called "Sex at the Edge of Night") about this issue:

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001794.cfm

Note also that this current thread is about one couple and John Thomas's response to one letter, and not everything said applies generally to everyone. Only the word of God does that!

65. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 6:23 PM on Jun 16:

Mike (#61)

As Christians, we both hate and love sin. Therein lies the struggle. If we perfectly hated sin (as Jesus did our behalf, and thank God!), we wouldn't do it anymore.

We sin because part of us (our flesh, the "old man") still loves sin. We don't sin because it's a "compulsion." Where is that concept in the Bible? It's everywhere in psychology, but I have yet to find it in the Bible.

66. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 6:24 PM on Jun 16:

I meant to type, "as Jesus did *on* our behalf," in that last comment.

67. KJ said the following at 6:38 PM on Jun 16:

Ted,

I'm curious what you mean by "his soul is at stake."

68. Kelly said the following at 10:56 PM on Jun 16:

Maggie - my comments were not intended to be a judgement on someone's 'purity'; I was merely pointing out an opinion I have come across *several times* in various Christian communities.

I don't think it's right, but it's out there, and definitely something to be aware of.

I myself have 2 Christian male friends who have broken up with Christian women once they discovered they'd had pre-marital sex. It is always very sad.

69. BY said the following at 1:16 AM on Jun 17:

I agree with Mike's comment (Mike #61):

“Love must sometimes be tough, I agree. But Jesus wasn't calling people who were honestly trying to change "vipers", "whitewashed tombs", or "hypocrites". He saved that for self-righteous people who weren't interested in seeing their own sin.”

All people are called to choose between continuing living a life of sin or repenting of their sins and coming before the cross of Jesus. The same way should be inside the church. A person, especially a believer living in sin, should have two clear options: choosing to continue living a life of sin or choosing to live a godly life within the boundaries set by the community of believers which also includes the full support and love by the church and the believers. In other words, this should be the clear choice: living your own way of sin or enjoying the love and the support of other believers within the boundaries set by Biblical standards and by the community of believers. That’s the way that God views us. We are either prodigals who live for pleasure and only for themselves or we are sons of God who are ready to return home and meet the Father’s love and forgiveness (and there is no condemnation for those who have repented and desire to turn away from sin). As believers, we should desire the same for all believers and help and support them in every possible way to turn away from their life of sin and hiding.

Of course, in reality this is much harder. We are all sinful and none of us is perfect. Hence, when there is sin, there is also a lot of anger, frustration and hurt involved. In other words, there are consequences. Friends will feel betrayed, pastors will feel let down, fellow Christians will feel anger, and everyone will have to find out enough strength within themselves in order to forgive and show the same grace that God has shown to them when he forgave their sins so that they can move on and know the right thing to do. Discipline does not and should not exclude love, especially when the person is willing to come clean before the body of Christ. The person should never feel left out because he made the right decision to repent and turn away from living a life in sin.

And again I will repeat Mike’s words:

70. Tami said the following at 9:36 AM on Jun 17:

Adam wrote:

"Also, removing yourself from this girl's presence won't help because what is done is done. Memory is just as powerful as presence."

...except that he seems to be dealing with a compulsive sin, and wrote for the very reason that he is grieved that he can't stop or control himself.

You're right; as with *any* of us, the Spirit's renewal of the young man's heart and mind is of primary concern. But it's probably not most *easily* accomplished if he's still involved with the young woman.

And again... I am not saying he should banish her from his life forever. But a time apart, in which he dedicates himself to repentance and renewal, might indeed *be* the loving thing to do.

71. Maggie said the following at 9:43 AM on Jun 17:

Trevor (62):

I apologize if I misunderstood any of your points. I do apologize if I misquoted you and let me just say that I agree with your main point that it is better to be lonely than impure.

Still, when reading your first post, it seems heavily based on the character of the woman, and not of the original letter writer. I would say that of course her character should be taken into account, but John should (and did) focus on the young man, who it seems to me is not at a place in his walk with Christ where he should be considering marriage. You quoted verses from Proverbs on a man losing his integrity by associating with an adulterous woman, but he has obviously and admittedly already forfeited his integrity through his own sin. The woman's sin needs to be dealt with as well, of course, but she has not written to Boundless so I don't think it's fair to judge her on this forum.

God bless,
Maggie

72. Ted Slater said the following at 9:49 AM on Jun 17:

KJ (#67) -- the man who asked the question confessed concern about his soul:

"i need help and im feel like if i dont stop it will lead to a deep falling away...."

The man saw that what he is doing is very serious. I simply reiterated this, to show that he required very serious counsel.

73. Ted Slater said the following at 10:12 AM on Jun 17:

Adam (#63) -- you are right that "we sin because we are sinners, not that we are sinners because we sin." You are right that we have a *heart* problem, and that we are found sinful because of the state of our heart, not the state of our legs or arms. John MacArthur explained it this way: "False religion places a premium on external behavior, while true Christianity is concerned with the heart."

That said, in most of your comments you downplay the impact of how our *physical* bodies affect our *hearts*.

Yes, it's not enough to wash the outside of the cup; we need the inside cleaned as well. It's not enough to clean the outside of a tomb; the inside is full of dead man's bones.

But what we do in the physical realm in fact *does* have some effect on our hearts. If we read Scripture, for example, those words of life change our hearts. If we pray, or express worship to the Lord, our hearts change.

Similarly, if we (in the words of Scripture) "flee youthful passions," we may gain a "pure heart." We are told to "flee from sexual immorality," not merely wrestle with it in our hearts. What we *do* does affect who we *are*.

You wrote that "removing yourself from this girl's presence won't help." Well, yes it can help. If she is not around, he will no longer engage in sexual intercourse with her. She, and he, may be able to see things cool down enough to make wiser, humbler decisions.

Again, I affirm your concern for the heart. But I do have to say that the body is of some relevance as well.

74. Adam Sloope said the following at 12:19 PM on Jun 17:

I have a question that was actually asked by my girlfriend who challenges and questions her faith and its principles candidly, which is actually quite beautiful. The question is, why don't Christians wear liar or mean rings? She asks this in response to the amount of elevation the sin of sexual morality has been given by the Christian Church. I have been challenged latley myself to wonder why I don't have a problem with lying to someone or thinking a rude thought or even occasionally just letting someone have it but cringe at the idea of being sexually immoral. Is this sin larger than the others? Again, I support sexual purity, however, I am disappointed that it is focused on more than some sins that may actually do worse or be just as destructive as sexual immorality.

75. BY said the following at 12:46 PM on Jun 17:

Adam Sloope #74:

"Quite beautifully" said a life of sin, including sexual immorality, leads only to hell. However, if we confess and repent of our sins and come to the cross, we will find only love and frogiveness, and no condemnation. This is your choice and your girlriend's choice: a life of sin leading to hell or turning away from sin and coming to the cross.

76. Amir Larijani said the following at 1:07 PM on Jun 17:

Adam Sloope asks:

I have a question that was actually asked by my girlfriend who challenges and questions her faith and its principles candidly, which is actually quite beautiful. The question is, why don't Christians wear liar or mean rings? She asks this in response to the amount of elevation the sin of sexual morality has been given by the Christian Church. I have been challenged latley myself to wonder why I don't have a problem with lying to someone or thinking a rude thought or even occasionally just letting someone have it but cringe at the idea of being sexually immoral. Is this sin larger than the others? Again, I support sexual purity, however, I am disappointed that it is focused on more than some sins that may actually do worse or be just as destructive as sexual immorality.

:::pushing John Thomas aside so I can rant for a while:::

Your question assumes that, in the case of sexual immorality, it's just about "the act". Trouble is, there are several factors you are leaving out.

(1) Someone--especially a church leader--who engages in sexual immorality and then covers it up, as is the case addressed by Thomas, is indeed lying.

(2) When someone engages in a relationship against the wishes of the parents, one is--with few exceptions--clearly acting in bad faith and therefore dishonoring one or both sets of parents.

If that relationship is sexual, then that just jacks up the score.

Like I said before, had the church looked the other way with Ted, one can only imagine the disaster that would have ensued.

Having been on this earth for 42 years--not including 7.5 months in the womb--I've seen enough of my fair share of the consequences of sin, including sexual sins.

After three years at a crisis pregnancy center, and almost 17 years in churches of various denominations, I could write a few volumes.

Against that backdrop, I'd say John Thomas is being way too nice.

(3) When one engages in sexual immorality, he or she is making little of the marriage covenant. The sexual act is a covenant act.

(4) When one engages in sexual immorality, one sins against one's own body in ways that other sins do not apply. (1 Corinthians 6:18) This may very well be due to the covenant nature of the sexual act.

No one here has suggested that people who engage in sexual immorality ought to wear some scarlet letter, or a "whoremonger" or "harlot" or "adulterer" or "porn addict" ring to designate their perversion of choice.

Moreover, no one here has suggested that a liar not be held accountable on the same footing as the sexually immoral.

Ergo, you are just raising a strawman in an attempt to make little of a very legitimate issue--that of a church leader who is having sex outside of marriage.

That "leader" is running the risk of sending the wrong message to other children and youth, as they--going through the throes of puberty and peer pressure--are effectively looking for an excuse to engage in such behavior. A church leader who does it, is all the "permission" they "need".

Teachers are responsible for what they "teach" their students. Anyone who thinks that teaching is merely a matter for the classroom, understands not the meaning of the concept.

77. Carrie (the original) said the following at 2:02 PM on Jun 17:

Adam Sloope said
I have been challenged latley myself to wonder why I don't have a problem with lying to someone or thinking a rude thought or even occasionally just letting someone have it

Why don't you have a problem with these things?
Just because you have issues with one sin and don't have issues with another is more of a reflection on your hard-heartedness than it is the severity of the sin.
Maybe I'm side-stepping the real issue at hand. I'm not even sure what the discussion is anymore as I've only skimmed comments. The original blog entry focused on a church leader confessing that he has engaged in fornication with his girlfriend. He is in a bind as to whether or not he should stop (ministry? girlfriend? both?).
I think the discussion has disintegrated into trying to figure out where "the line" is, as if "the line" is absolute for everyone.
What the real issue is, is "where is your heart?"

78. Mike said the following at 4:29 PM on Jun 17:

BY (#69) wrote:

The person should never feel left out because he made the right decision to repent and turn away from living a life in sin.

That's my main point. My belief is you have a person here who's been trying to do exactly that, and he needs reassurance that he won't be left out when he reaches out for help.

One of the things that kept me isolated and away from the church for 20+ years - and unable to reach for help with my sin - was the feeling that church people couldn't be trusted, and, since I was a sinner, they wouldn't accept me. Too much "hell and damnation" preaching in my upbringing.

And when I see harsh words directed at people who are tentatively reaching out, it really causes my anger to flare. It's like slapping a baby away who's crying for its mother.

Save the fire and brimstone for the Pharisees. You have to show people they're loved if you want to show them Christ.

79. Mike said the following at 4:33 PM on Jun 17:

Christopher from Albuquerque (#65) wrote:

We sin because part of us (our flesh, the "old man") still loves sin. We don't sin because it's a "compulsion." Where is that concept in the Bible?

Romans 7:18-19.

"I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing."

Sounds a lot like a compulsion to me.

And if Paul, probably the greatest Christian of all time (debatably), had that problem, then we ought to probably take it a little easy on people who still have that problem.

80. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:06 PM on Jun 17:

Maggie (71): No worries - I find this sort of discussion works so much better face to face, even though it's a difficult subject, because I would have seen much quicker that you weren't hearing what I was trying to communicate! No blame intended there, by the way, just the recognition that facial cues work wonders :)

I mentioned the _possible_ character of the woman simply because nobody else had. If (and this is a big if) the woman in question is simply sleeping her way through the church (and this is quite possible), then it changes the picture immensely: the letter-writer may be deceiving himself in believing he led her astray. He will probably know this at some level, and could well be reading this thread, so it seemed worth mentioning the issue.

However, I don't _know_ she's that sort, and in fact I suspect she's not; the most likely case is that she and he started out innocent and ended up in sin together. That's by far the most likely case, and so I mentioned the Deuteronomy passage to bring up marriage in that case, simply because that's the only part of God's word that I know of that deals with this question, and nobody else mentioned immediate marriage as a possibility.

It's entirely possible that he's done what Isaac did: take Rebekah into his tent and "married" her. In that case, he does indeed need to "man up" and accept the responsiblity he's already taken on; having a human marriage ceremony simply makes public what has already taken place. (Usual caveats about this not applying in all case and to all people :) ).

There are other variations of this theme, but I limited myself because that's the easiest way to get the letter-writer thinking (if he's not got bored already and stopped reading!). I hope the people he talks to in real life will help him understand what's happened and what he needs to do, because there's really only so much we can do online. To modify Rob's statement earlier, online advice doesn't "give you a hug at the end of the day" :)

81. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:13 PM on Jun 17:

Adam Slope (74): I'm going to assume a context of purity rings - the question is a bit odd without that! I think there is a simple reason from the Bible on this, namely that St. Paul puts fornication into a separate category: see 1 Corinthians 6.

Personally, I don't think I've seen any other sins do more damage than sexual immorality, probably because that sin affects people at such a deep level it can take them over for life and make recovery harder than gambling or almost anything else.

82. Adam Sloope said the following at 8:10 PM on Jun 17:

I understand all the things you have brought up, I have a degree from a very conservative Bible College and have a grasp on this principle and all its implications. My point is that it is easy to "bring down the hammer" for those of us who do not have a similar struggle instead of extending grace. The truth is we all have our struggle, I just bring up the point that we should not be so quick to point out sin struggle in others lives and ignore our own. I think too many presumptions were made about my response and actually for the first time think I do not want to be a part of this rigid and ungraceful group anymore. I think if someone who loves Jesus they should exude His love more than the wrath of the law which we were freed from. Eat this up, but I will not be responding here for a while because I am ashamed to take part in the dismantling of a young man who is open and actually looking for help.

83. BY said the following at 11:09 PM on Jun 17:

Adam Sloope #82:

You are here on this earth not to make the church people happy, but to come to God and enter His kingdom. If you confess your sins to him and repent of them, you will find God's grace and fogiveness and you may enter the kingdom of God. However, the same may or may not be true for the church people because all humans are sinful and they cannot love with the perfect love that God loves us. But if you do not enter the kingdom, whether you blame others for your sins or not blame them, either way you will miss out on God's eternal grace and go to hell because you refused to repent of your sins before God. I hope that makes it a little clearer for you.

84. BY said the following at 11:20 PM on Jun 17:

Adam Sloope #82

And also please read my comment #69 and Mike's comment #61 on the subject of this young man. If you have any objections, please share with us. Just picking up and throwing stones at everybody without being specific is really not fair. Please make sure you really understand what people say before you judge. Thanks!

85. Leah said the following at 12:05 AM on Jun 18:

To all those people who feel this person has been "kicked while (he's) down" or "snapped off at ground level" (Mike etc) : No, he hasn't. He has not been told to just "get it together" or "snap out of it". He was told he should break up with the girl, establish a mentoring/accountability partnership with a pastor, and then resume the relationship when the mentor says it's ok. That's not telling him to "just do it" .

As for Rob (23): Whoa, you're way off-base. I see where you're coming from, but you're going the wrong direction. Yes, God wants us to be happy. But NOT at the cost of our purity and godliness. We can be happy while also being pure and godly. Sinning is the cheap and easy shortcut to happiness. Purity is NOT a poor subsitute for human connection. Human connections are often fraught with unhappiness, even within generally happy marriages. God would have us be pure AND enter into a happy marriage. It is possible.

And Whoa, why is everyone bashing Adam Sloope? I agree with him. He was not saying it's wrong of us to condemn sexual sin present in church leaders. He was asking why we criticise sexual sin so much more than other sins, regardless of who is committing the sin. And he is spot-on. A 17 year old girl who gets pregnant is more likely to receive behind-the-back-whisperings than her friend who cheated on her end-of-semester exam, or her brother who got a speeding fine for hooning down the local highway. They've all sinned, but her church regards her as the more 'sinful'.

Yes, sexual sin has a more profound affect on its victims than the other sins. But that is why secular society looks down on it more than it looks down on a girl cheating on her exam. We should be equally condemning of both sins (not both people).

86. BY said the following at 7:46 AM on Jun 18:

Adam Sloope:

All people are sinful. You and I should focus more on Jesus than on our circumstances and on the fallen people around us. If all the other people around us turn out to be hypocrites and liars doomed to go to hell and Jesus tells them, “I never knew you,” should we follow after their steps and not seek our God with all our heart and mind? And if you see something wrong, come on stand up and make it right regardless of the consequences. The church and the community of believers may hold you accountable only if you let them, but you should know that they are not a good substitute for God’s love and peace inside of you. People can help you or they may fail you, but God will never fail you if you trust Him completely with your life. Which sin is the greatest and which sin is more or less important, and should we pay more attention to some sins while disregarding or completely ignoring others? Well, I don’t know as I don’t want to be the judge but I know that we are full of contradictions as human beings, and that love covers a multitude of sins. And love comes from God and that’s why we should share it with everyone. It’s easy to sit on the sideline and criticize, but the hardest part is actually to make a positive difference in the life of a person or in the life of the church and the community of believers.

87. BY said the following at 8:06 AM on Jun 18:

Correction: In my last comment I was a little hypocritical myself. God calls us to love Him above all and to obey and do His will if we truly love Him regardless of what people do or our circumstances. That's what I meant in my last post. Sometimes it may not seem that we do anything "meaningful" by the world standards, but if we wait and hold on to Him and do His will, that's more than enough.

88. Adam Sloope said the following at 8:54 AM on Jun 18:

Thanks Leah, I think you are the only person that comprehends what I wrote.

BY, I'm not siting on the sideline criticizing, I'm on my second church plant and very involved in changing the community around me with love. So I am working through this in a very active way. I've seen too many people hurt by well meaning Christians who judge over love thinking they are saving someone. Salvati noand santification are not the same thing, too many uneducated Christians get this mixed up.

Again, the point is why we elevate sexual sin over any other sin...that's all, a very simple thought that most are missing.

89. Sarah P. said the following at 8:55 AM on Jun 18:

Y'all, all you who think this advice is too intense, I disagree. You gotta get violent with this kind of sin, because it gets violent with you. And yes, it is more intense and devastating than other sins. Solomon dedicates at least two chapters to the topic in Proverbs (chapters 5 and 7).

"[The feet of the strange woman] go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them" (Pro. 5:5-6).

I am so glad to see this advice to render this young man accountable in his weakness. I hope he follows it and kills this death-plant while it is still relatively small.

90. Cassandra said the following at 11:11 AM on Jun 18:

Again, the point is why we elevate sexual sin over any other sin...that's all, a very simple thought that most are missing.

I hear this all the time. The reason why people target sexual sin is I believe for two reasons. Firstly, sexual sin is sin that has been exonerated by our culture. Our culture expects everyone to sin sexually and if we don't, we're considered freaks of nature.

Secondly, this is an area where the vast majority of people, single and married, experience temptation, and many have fallen, so as Sarah P. pointed out, we have to war against it with extra effort, personally with the Holy Spirit and also in our church communities. Even more so with our leadership, which Satan lives to target with sexual sin (or whatever temptation is strongest for them) and bring down.

When Paul talks about sinning against our own bodies, he makes an excellent point. I don't understandy why, but for some reason, the effects of sexual sin are devistating in a way that cheating on a test isn't.

91. Jo said the following at 11:22 AM on Jun 18:

Leah said: "And Whoa, why is everyone bashing Adam Sloope?"

Amen to that. The point he made was quite simple and I should imagine most people here would actually agree if they read it properly...

BY said:
"Please make sure you really understand what people say before you judge."

I think this is one of those times when you should maybe take your own advice, as I don't think you understood what Adam was saying at all. Heh, my reaction to your comments is always either "That's brilliant, I totally agree" or "Where on earth did that come from?!" It's perplexing.

92. Jo said the following at 11:37 AM on Jun 18:

And I can't remember who said she had friends who had broken up with girlfriends when they discovered they weren't virgins - but I think this is incredibly sad and (in most cases) really wrong. Yes, past sexual sin will affect a future marriage, arguably in a bigger way than other sins - but it can usually be worked through. I can understand the urge to avoid the pain involved, I can understand that it's a difficult issue, but for a Christian to reject someone on the basis of past sins (that are fully repented of and no longer recurring) just seems to fly in the face of everything we believe about grace.

I will add the disclaimer that I'm speaking generally, not addressing the specific situations mentioned (which I know nothing about). As with anything, there will be exceptions - but in most cases, I think a choice to break up with someone purely for that reason would suggest to me very wrong priorities and a pretty low opinion of God's forgiveness.

93. BY said the following at 11:49 AM on Jun 18:

Well, I might be wrong, but I hope that Adam will show me my wrongness as graciously as you do so I can say I am sorry and apologize to him. Well, I don't know if he is just playing games on us or he really is trying to build us up and teach us something of value. He is right in pointing out that there are other areas on which we should also focus as Christians, but I hope he can elaborate more on this.

94. BY said the following at 12:08 PM on Jun 18:

Jo,

I have a message to all people whether they are Christians or not Christians. It is with the words of the prophet: the book of Jeremiah chapter 11.

95. Cassandra said the following at 12:18 PM on Jun 18:

I think a choice to break up with someone purely for that reason would suggest to me very wrong priorities and a pretty low opinion of God's forgiveness.

Agreed. Not only is it pretty dysfunctional, it takes away the high calling of a man to be a Boaz. :)

Although I believe Kelly's comments were intended to report on what she sees in the Christian community. I've seen it too.

96. Adam Sloope said the following at 1:50 PM on Jun 18:

BY, thanks for the apology, I appreciate it. I have a personal blog you can check out for more on this if you want. Honestly the whole point of this is reliance on forgiveness over what we do, that is al lI hope to ever emphasize in my life, dependance on Christ.

97. dasiopa said the following at 2:21 PM on Jun 18:

Cassandra (#95),

the high calling of a man to be a Boaz

Don't you mean Hosea?

98. BY said the following at 2:39 PM on Jun 18:

Adam Sloop:

Well, now I can confirm I was clearly wrong. I read a little from your blog and now I gained understanding on where you were coming from.

99. Cassandra said the following at 3:26 PM on Jun 18:

Nope, I meant Boaz. Ruth wasn't a virgin. :)

I thought of Hosea too, but I think that situation was a little different.

100. Zane said the following at 4:13 PM on Jun 18:

100

Maybe, get married?

Contributors

About Us

Relevant Boundless Articles

SUBSCRIBE VIA EMAIL

Newer Post | Older Post