Give While Getting Out of Debt?
by Heather Koerner on 06/12/2009 at 11:00 AM
Yesterday on his blog, Randy Alcorn answers a question from a young couple who are $100,000 in debt and wondering about how much, if any, they should be giving to the church.
The couple acknowledges that they are "reaping consequences from bad choices." But now that they are attempting to pay down the hundred grand of student loans, they are getting different advice on where giving should fit into their budget. They ask:
We have been counseled in a number of ways on this. One is that you continue giving SO THAT God will meet your need (which is much like the "prosperity gospel" and we believe the motive for giving is not right). Then we were taught that we need to be faithful, even if the budget is tight, to give at least 10%, and that that should be our FIRST check we make out each month (even if we know we won't make our other bills) as evidence of the priority of God and His church in our lives. We've also heard it taught that since we're in debt, our money is not our own so we need to work really hard to pay that back so that our money is freed to give back to God.
I understand what you are saying about the heart of giving, but I was wondering what is the biblical approach in these situations?
Alcorn addresses many points in his answer, but here are a few highlights:
- "I disagree in the strongest possible way with those who argue that since we're in debt we shouldn't give to God until we get out of debt."
- "I agree 100% with the position that we need to be faithful in our giving, maintaining it in difficult times and increasing it if we haven't been giving much in the past. Often our lack of giving has been a large part of our financial problem. Certainly, it is never a solution to it."
- "Debt is especially dangerous when we’re tempted to rob our primary creditor (God) to pay our secondary creditors (people)."
- "We owe the first fruits to God, not the last fruits. Those who put God first will pay off their human creditors, while those who put human creditors before the divine Creditor always get into trouble."
- "If by giving to God we can no longer afford to make payments on a loan, then we need to liquidate our assets, take losses where we must, and cut spending to a minimum to eliminate the debt."
You can read the entire answer here.
1. Mike Theemling said the following at 11:10 AM on Jun 12:
I tend to be in agreement with Mr. Alcorn.
God comes first, and that includes our finances as well.
I believe that a large part of the problem stems from the fact that many Americans have a very liberal definition of "need". We need cable or satellite TV. We need to eat out once a week. We need a cell phone. Paul wrote that he was thankful for just food and clothing; and as far as I know, just about everyone in this country (even the homeless) have access to that.
I'm definitely not saying that poverty is ideal nor that we should neglect providing for our own families. But I think that many make the excuse for giving because they "can't afford it" when often the fact is they don't want to give up their standard of living.
The danger is when you can justify not giving to God when times are tight, what makes you think that you will be able to do so when times are good? God wants you to make use of your talents, whether you are given ten talents or just one.
For the record, I do not rigidly adhere to the 10% tithe (because it's more about the heart). However, I do believe it's a good starting point if one isn't sure how much to give. I do like C.S. Lewis' guide of giving. He said that if we aren't feeling that "pinch" when we give, then we probably aren't giving enough. It's that reminder that we are reliant upon God. I believe a lot of us fail in that area, myself included.
In the specific "God or food/shelter" examples, I don't think that it's an either/or situation in most cases. Give to God, seek help (e.g. swallow your pride and get food from the food bank), and evaluate your expenses and standard of living. Working debt off is hard work, and sacrifices will have to be made. But God will provide through those tough times, because He promised such.
2. P&P said the following at 12:11 PM on Jun 12:
I have to strenuosly disagree with the idea of giving financially while you're digging out of crushing debt.
Giving to a church rather than paying your car insurance? Noble but unwise. Even the most strident tither would agree that digging further into a financial hole while helping support your church is not the best use of money.
It would be more prudent to pay off the debts as quickly as possible, which would enable one to give even more in the long run.
Rather than give money while digging out of debt, give time. Is it possible to dedicate 10% of your "free" time to your church? Help set up and put away the chairs for Bible Study? Offer to lead a ministry at a local homeless shelter or assist the youth pastor on Wednesday evenings? Can you re-engineer the web site so it's user-friendly? Update the membership database that the admin never has time for?
I know some will argue here that people should be doing this already, but I don't think one's dedication to faith should be put exclusively into dollars. I'm always concerned when a pastor counsels someone on the verge of bankruptcy to keep giving to the church while they're going through foreclosure.
3. KJ said the following at 1:11 PM on Jun 12:
I don't agree with the whole "God is our primary debtor" line of thinking. We aren't in debt to God. We can't pay Him back. We should want to give to Him, but we don't "owe."
4. IMO said the following at 1:27 PM on Jun 12:
I agree with #2 and #3
And I'm confused about this statement:
"Debt is especially dangerous when we’re tempted to rob our primary creditor (God) to pay our secondary creditors (people)."
What does it mean, biblically?
5. pebble said the following at 1:35 PM on Jun 12:
this topic is near and dear to my heart, and here's something i've learned about tithing while not being in an incredibly safe/secure financial situation. years ago, when my father started taking the family money and doing otherwise with it, i saw my mother be forced to step up to the plate and provide EVERYTHING for a family of 10. even then, and sometimes even to a fault, she continued to give each of the kids a little something to put in the offering, writing her own check, supporting younger women/other families in need, and so on....even though it didn't always leave her family with the latest/best food/clothing/entertainment choices, if much at all.
as a result, a lot of my siblings and i went to work very early on and began supporting ourselves, and when my faith actually became something of my own, i started regularly tithing, starting at a certain % and working my way up to where i am now. i have been SO incredibly blessed financially, to say nothing of other ways. when i look back, it's a weird combination of "i never had tons of money" and "i've always have everything i needed and could even usually afford to buy someone a gift and grab a starbucks on the way out". and then ultimately realizing that He truly has provided in both good times and bad. i hope it doesn't sound like i think of it as something like "He'll bless me in X way if i first give in the same way"...but i do think there is something to say for being faithful in that regard and knowing that if your heart is the right place with giving (in this case, of your money), then God will provide for you in many similar or different ways.
b/c money management is such a personal issue for me with how i've seen someone close to me misuse it, i do have to be aware not to get legalistic about it in my own heart, but i thoroughly enjoy sermons/articles on being a good steward of what God has blessed us with, and specifically when it comes to our salaries, and one of the best ways i've heard that preached about is "it's not how much of your money you give to God, it's how much of God's you keep". if nothing else, i hope that that's what people in the above, and similar situation, dwell on before quickly eliminating something like tithing/giving b/c they "can't afford it".
there's something to be said for being financially responsible all around (both in your faith and with your everyday bills), but i do agree with comment #1 that often times, people who are used to higher standards of living begin to associate some wants/luxuries for needs, or at best, things they would have a really hard time letting go of because of xyz reason that actually has very little to do with their well-being.
6. Keith said the following at 2:49 PM on Jun 12:
Giving while we are financially stretched is difficult, but I guess we must do it.
I have personally have been struggling with giving after losing my job. I get $307 in unemployment benefits per week - And I should be giving 10%, but it is tough, I understand. But I still think it is the right thing to do.
7. BDB said the following at 2:53 PM on Jun 12:
There's not space to put all the Bible verses here, but I encourage those interested to go to www.biblegateway.com and search on the terms "tithe" "offerings" and "sacrifices." Read the contextual verses, too.
It's clear from scripture that giving is about the condition of one's heart. The reason you should give while in debt is because it IS hard, and it will force you to think and pray about why you are in debt.
You may not be able to start with 10% of the gross or something like that. But regular giving is going to be the key to changing the behaviors that resulted in the debt in the first place.
It's also key to understand the relationships between how God blesses us and what we do with those blessings. If we take God's financial blessings and hoard 100% of it for ourselves, He can easily provide those blessings to someone who WILL allocate the resources towards God's goals. God can easily provide far more in financial blessing that you start out giving.
But I'll admit that the first $1000 of giving will probably be the most painful. As God changes your heart, it become easier to see the relationship between giving and a relationship with God.
8. Cassandra said the following at 2:54 PM on Jun 12:
I make payments on my student loans (and will be doing so for a few more years at least) and tithe too. It's never even occured to me to not do both simultaneously. Interesting discussion.
9. Sara said the following at 3:17 PM on Jun 12:
I think this is all about having faith in God to provide for us.... even in our most difficult times. Remember Luke 21:1-3? "As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins."I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others."
Giving 10% of what you have when you have a lot doesn't mean all that much. Giving 10% of nothing means a lot.
That said, one thing I think all Christian churches could learn from the LDS Church (the Mormon church) is that if everyone gave that 10% tithe, we could really take care of the members in our church. The LDS Church is really into making sure you have food stockpiled for at least a year (a lil' paranoid, but great in hard times lol), making sure everyone in the Church has enough to eat, wear, etc so they have have to go outside the Church to have their needs met. I may wholeheartedly disagree with LDS doctrine, but I am willing to humble myself and say we could learn a lot from their practices.
10. IMO said the following at 4:48 PM on Jun 12:
BDB,
Here's the thing though...
I've yet to come upon Scripture that talks about debt and sacrifice together.
I see those things talked about separately.
Like the debter must be repaid. Well, does tithe take precident (Sp?) over that in the bible?
Do you see what I'm trying to say?
As for me, I'm debt free (except for the mortgage and car payments...but I make monthly payments in full). I pay off my credit card in full every month.
For those that are drowning in debt, is it really pleasing to the Lord to tithe to Him, while ignoring the debtor? I don't know. Please provide Scripture or some sort of argument.
I do know that God likes a cheerful giver. So I guess you can say that those who tithe with a grudge really aren't pleasing God either.
11. Texas Craig said the following at 7:27 PM on Jun 12:
I don't believe there is one "right" answer. But, I do think that there is a Godly way of looking at. Along those lines, I give you 2 Corinthians 8:1-5:
"And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. And they did not do as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God's will."
For the mature, giving is a privilege and not a burden. Our goal really ought to be "how much can I give away?"
As for me, I continue to have some debt (but I service it properly and stay up on my payments), even while trying to give away very generously.
12. Joe said the following at 10:23 PM on Jun 12:
It is a tough subject, especially for those who are roughing it financially. But God makes it clear that we are to bring our firstfruits to him, not what is left over:
We obligate ourselves to bring the firstfruits of our ground and the firstfruits of all fruit of every tree, year by year, to the house of the LORD; Nehemiah 10:35
Or,
Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops; then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine. Proverbs 3:9-10
The widow in Mark 12/Luke 21 gave all she had to live on! Jesus said: "All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."
If you give to God first, you are in a position to receive His blessing. If you don't give to Him from your income, basically you are saying "I don't need your help, God. I can do this on my own.". Since we aren't under the Law anymore, I believe how much to give is an issue of the heart.
Someone mentioned that there is no Bible verse that covers tithing while in debt. I don't think you need one. There are lots of verses about giving firstfruits. The widow gave all she had to live on. And, after all, our money doesn't belong to us. All we have is His.
My pastor once said that when we don't give, we are robbing God. I know, sounds like a guilt trip, but it's true. And we are robbing ourselves of His blessing.
I hope that doesn't sound too legal. I encourage you to faithfully give even in the hard times. Because that's what it ultimately comes down to: faith that He will provide.
13. IMO said the following at 11:27 PM on Jun 12:
Well I guess now I realize that I really don't think that people who have serious debt have first fruits to give. The initial debt was the first fruit. Another way of saying this is that people gave their first fruits to their debtor.
If I made $100 and then owed $99, would that $1 really be a first fruit....or should I tithe $10 and then give the rest to my debtor? Like I said before, I would honestly like to see where the bible addresses this.
As a side note, the topic of this blog is about debt and tithing, not tithing in general. All these comments seem like they are preaching to the choir.
14. BDB said the following at 11:32 PM on Jun 12:
IMO (#10) - I always pronounce that Emo in my head. Anyway, to your question...
In reading Leviticus, I don't see anything that allows a poor person to avoid contributing a sacrifice. Instead, what I see is that God allows someone who cannot afford a lamb to substitute a dove for the sacrifice. Specifically, Leviticus 14:21-23:
21 “But if he is poor and cannot afford it, then he shall take one male lamb as a trespass offering to be waved, to make atonement for him, one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, a log of oil, 22 and two turtledoves or two young pigeons, such as he is able to afford: one shall be a sin offering and the other a burnt offering. 23 He shall bring them to the priest on the eighth day for his cleansing, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, before the LORD.
Part of my reluctance to say "pay debt first" is the right thing to do is that I know how most of us accumulate consumer debt. It's VERY easy to keep spending and spending, and NEVER be debt free, and therefore make the excuse that one never has the money to give to God.
It's clear from scripture that God blesses us based on our giving, not our hoarding. So, to increase one's income, one needs God's blessing to be able to get out of the hole. That begins with being obedient to the giving commands.
The mistake is thinking it's a zero-sum game: I only have $X, therefore I can't give anything to God. No, God can change $X to $X,XXX. But from what I've seen in scripture (and my own life, and the testimony of others), it begins with giving while it's painful. After it becomes a discipline, we often find that it doesn't hurt anymore. And that, somehow, the financial pressure has relaxed.
I don't believe in the prosperity gospel, mind you. But I do believe that Jesus talked about money so much because it has too strong a hold on human beings. The only way to break its hold is to give it away.
15. Denise said the following at 8:22 AM on Jun 13:
Although I do tithe regularly, I have an incredibly hard time believing that God our salvation hostage to a strict percentage, which is how a lot of churches portray our giving. What happens to the people who don't tithe exactly 10%? Are we to be denied at the gate? Are we suddenly not Christian anymore? If so, PLEASE let me know where scripturally...my salvation's at stake. lol
Also I think it's unfair to compare Paul's survival on only food and clothing to our culture today. It's not like he had access to all the things we have now--it was a totally different time...plus he was single. And I'm assuming he didnt owe any money. Him surviving on just food and clothing is a bit different than a couple with 2 young kids, a mortgage, and college debt (which could very well have been from a local community college) trying to survive on the same.
16. Morghan said the following at 10:18 AM on Jun 13:
As someone who is in a considerable amount of debt, I have to say "yes, give". Tithe literally means 10 so maybe you can't afford 10% but you can afford something. I've had to cut back a lot. I no longer buy coffee and shop at the 99 cent store for a lot of basics but I give 10% of my income every month. I also swallowed my pride and got credit counseling, which was able to consolidate my debt and lower my interest. They look at your total monthly expenses and work out a payment plan for you. Its not easy to get started, but after a while its nice to be writing a few less checks. Besides, God created the universe in six days...He can make sure you have enough money to pay your bills if you give Him a chance.
Jesus said " Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?"
17. Esther said the following at 10:32 AM on Jun 13:
when I was growing up, my parents didn't have enough money to pay for health insurance, and, given the number of children, we qualified for free lunches at school. However, my family lived on my dad's income, my mom stayed home and we lived very frugally, and I know my parents tithed and beyond even though they could have easily made excuses for why there wasn't enough money to do so. Not eating out, not having cable, wearing second-hand clothes, and any number of cost-saving choices aren't always fun, but they sure save money.
I started tithing when I started earning money with little jobs in high school. I wasn't forced, and my parents didn't preach it, but I admired their values. I don't believe God blesses me because I tithe, but I know that I have been richly blessed, so I tithe because I am thankful, and because God asks so little of us, really, and this is a small thing that I can do to demonstrate my devotion.
As for the couple referenced in the original post, if they are truly not capable of making their debt payments, as well as minimum living expenses, my approach would be to keep a record of what I would have given in tithes, if I were able, then do so, once the other obligations have been met. However, I don't think we should let ourselves 'off the hook' just because we have made poor choices and gotten into debt. There will always be 'good' things popping up that will demand our money, even urgent things, but I think it is important to keep God as the priority, even if it means putting off painting the house or getting braces.
18. obewan said the following at 2:17 PM on Jun 13:
I said it before, but I'll say it again. Tithes in their historical context were always food. Many scholars even say that only the agrarian members (farmers and herders) of Israel were required to tithe. There is even scripture that says if the food is too big to carry, it may be converted to money, and the money used to buy a “food tithe” at the “tithe location.”
Furthermore, tithes were like a form of social “welfare tax". 2/3 did take care of the Levitical priesthood (by feeding them), but a FULL 1/3 of the tithes went to feed the poor, disabled, widows, and orphans. Most modern churches do not spend their "tithes" in that manner. My current church only gives 10% to missions, and probably 2% to the poor. However, we do not hesitate to pay a full time minister $70,000 a year to fill the
fulltime job role of “athletics” pastor to head up basketball, volleyball, softball, and soccer. I have to ask, are we then “robbing God” by taking money that should be spent on the poor and using it for our own “entertainment”, or are we going to say that that is what welfare taxes are for? If so, then why “tithe” the full 10% to the LOCAL church?
We get cult like when we insist that every church member "owes" a full 10% to the local church (which is what most churches that teach tithing preach). The New Testament implies we are free from the law and that freewill offerings are "optionally" required. I use that freedom to give an "offering" to my church, and the balance to Christian charities. I will say that 10% is a good “guideline” and that I am thankful for those who are able to give that amount or more, but I don’t intend to call down any “curses” on those who are led to give less.
19. Jo said the following at 3:27 PM on Jun 13:
obewan,
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. If I saw a church displaying a lot of wealth and not giving a significant amount to the needy, I would want to know why. Giving to a church is not an end in itself. The church should be stewarding that money wisely and generously, and as someone giving to that church, I should be comfortable with where my tithe is going.
I split my tithe between my church and a couple of charities. I also give at random times when a good cause touches my heart. Different people do it in different ways, and I don't think we should be legalistic. I do think we should encourage giving, but not with hard and fast rules, and not for its own sake.
For the questioners in so much debt, I don't think there's a definite answer. I think it's a personal decision between them and God. They should make economies where they can, either to tithe or to pay the debt quicker in order to be able to tithe in the future. But I don't think one way is necessarily better than the other; I think it's the heart attitude that counts.
20. BDB said the following at 4:47 PM on Jun 13:
obewan (#18) wrote:
>>Furthermore, tithes were like a form of social “welfare tax". 2/3 did take care of the Levitical priesthood (by feeding them), but a FULL 1/3 of the tithes went to feed the poor, disabled, widows, and orphans. Most modern churches do not spend their "tithes" in that manner.<<
My church does give a lot to a poor - thousands of meals a month and right now, around $50,000/month in other types of assistance.
Interestingly enough, our giving has gone UP during this economic downturn.
Though I will say, we rarely talk about money in my church, either. Ad we adopted George Müllers method of putting an offering box at the back of the church. We do not pass offering plates. The pastor does not know who is giving.
So yes, the principles apply to churches, too. We're convinced that all our activities for the poor (which includes a substantial accountability component) is related to why the church isn't struggling for money.
Of course, we've owned our building for 8 years and still worship in the gym, because we haven't built a sanctuary yet. The church is almost 20 years old.
21. Becky Castle Miller said the following at 1:58 PM on Jun 14:
Randy Alcorn is the real deal. He has sacrificed so much to keep his integrity. I always respect his advice.
22. Jimmie said the following at 2:30 PM on Jun 14:
You give the 10%. It isn't for God's benefit. It is for yours. Always always always give. Before taxes before food before anything. The birds are taken care of so will we.
23. Kelly said the following at 7:14 PM on Jun 14:
Question for you all.
I'm currently not tithing. Instead, all of my 'spare' income is going towards paying off my sister's debt.
So it's giving to a fellow Christian rather than God. Or is it giving to God by helping another person? What do you think?
(I will add that her debt was due to medical bills and the GFC rather than poor choices.)
24. Farmer Pete said the following at 2:02 AM on Jun 15:
Short version...
(1) Our gifts are not a "payment" on what we owe God. What He has given us is a gift of grace, and that can be the only way in which we reciprocate.
(2) A payment which is owed is not a "gift". Nor do you "rob" someone by withholding a gift.
(3) If we obtain something upon promise of payment and do not then make the payment for it, then we are both liars and thieves. This is not just "a bad witness", it is sin.
(4) If we give to God to the [u]unreasonable[/u] detriment on our own family, we run close to the offense criticised by Jesus in Mark 7,- in which such giving is described as destroying the word of God - and that mentioned by Paul in 1Tim5, in which failing to provide for dependants is classified as "worse than an unbeliever."
(5) The scripture that refers to robbing God is clearly in the context of the [u]specific[/u] contract between the Israelites and God in relation to their occupation of the Promised Land. I see nowhere in scripture that this law is applied to New Covenant Christians, particularly gentiles who do not live in the Promised Land.
Giving is good. Sacrificial giving is to be praised. But let's not apply to it, standards which scripture does not.
Respectfully..... Peter
25. BDB said the following at 3:04 AM on Jun 15:
Kelly #23 wrote:
>>(I will add that her debt was due to medical bills and the GFC rather than poor choices.)<<
Might count as "giving alms" to the poor.
Of course, that must be done in secret, and since you've told us, it doesn't count spirtually anymore, so...sorry.
Just kidding!
There are Biblical commands to both tithe and give to the poor, and there are commands in James to take care of one's family. I would encourage you to pray about whether it should be an either/or situation or a both/and.
I know that one of the general principles is to "give where you are fed." If you are a member of a specific church, giving to that church is what keeps the lights on.
I know that sometimes missionaries, who already ARE their local church, sometimes tithe by giving a portion of their income to other missionaries, especially when they know they are struggling.
In a similar principle, my church gives away about 10% of gross income to the poor and another 5% to missions and outreach around the world. There's a new flood of refugees in Thailand from Burma. As a church we just wired a missionary in the refugee camp $12,000 to take care of 2000 of them for a while. That includes getting them a mosquito net, some malaria medication, a bed, etc.
26. Michelle (in the UK) said the following at 3:49 AM on Jun 15:
I had some good advice...give even when you're in debt because the first 10% is not yours, it is God's.
I moved to this country 4 years ago and before that I didn't really tithe that much. I knew my dad did it faithfully, but there was major financial issues in my house based on poor decisions etc...anyway, due to this I felt trapped by money and ended up in a bit of debt (which I've now mostly payed off).
So that I don't take this off topic and write simply about tithing, but tithing when in debt I will say this. Even though I was in debt and making a very low wage for living in a major city (London) I knew that I needed to tithe.
By acknowledging that God is your provider and that he is your supplier builds your dependency on Him. Romans 11:16 states that if the first piece is holy the rest is holy.
Over the last few years I have seen my life grow--even gaining over 9k in raises in less than 3 years. Tithing even though I have debt to pay has given me a reliance on God that I did not have before. It has drawn me closer to Him through this process and through HIS blessing I have been able to bless others and pay off my debt.
I recommend a book called A Blessed Life which deals with this topic very well. It's biblically sound as well.
27. steward said the following at 5:04 AM on Jun 15:
I want to address Alcorn's 5 points with comments of my own
1. It is a decision between God and an individual whether or not they should get out of debt or give. There is no scripture in the bible that says if you are in debt, then make sure you still give, and vise-versa.
2. Often, those who don't give have no financial problems either. Financial problems is not a universal litmus test for our level of generosity.
3. Aren't we robbing God anyways if we are in debt? Especially if we're paying interest? Even if we give 10%, isn't our poor stewardship robbery of God's money?
4. The fourth point by Alcorn did not make sense to me. i think he mixed up a word of two
5. If we are torn between giving and getting out of debt, Alcorn's fifth point is a good strategy, and i see great honor with following his advice.
- Alcorn is a great stewardship counselor. I have read a few of his resources, and generally support his teachings. Although, I do disagree with his viewpoint about the tithing minimum.
- Jared
28. obewan said the following at 6:18 AM on Jun 15:
#23. Kelly said the following at 7:14 PM on Jun 14
Question for you all.
I'm currently not tithing. Instead, all of my 'spare' income is going towards paying off my sister's debt.
So it's giving to a fellow Christian rather than God. Or is it giving to God by helping another person? What do you think?
(I will add that her debt was due to medical bills and the GFC rather than poor choices.)
-----------------------------------
I would venture to guess that if you were giving 1/3 of your tithe, you would have a Biblical case since that is the definition of the "poor tithe" in the Old Testament, and the poor tithes were used for cases like your sisters.
29. Shannon said the following at 10:08 AM on Jun 15:
We should be very careful about turning this into a legalistic battle.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to dig into every little Scripture (I'm a SAHM with a toddler and a house that requires my attention) but my understanding is that 10% is a OT regulation. In the NT there is no specified amount - but we are called to give with a joyful heart - and there is the idea of giving according to your means. Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead for lying about how much they gave - but the point wasn't that they didn't give enough but that they lied about it - it was their money to do with as they pleased.
We don't owe God anything. We have a responsibility to the community we are a part of to support each other and thus we should give in the spirit that we're loving the body of Christ, not that we're paying God off. Or that we're even going to get anything back from it. I don't give a gift to my son thinking, hey, now I'm going to get a reward!! I give because I love him. So I give to my church because I love them.
There have been times in my life where I wasn't giving at all and I had no financial problems. Then there are times I was giving and I did have problems. They didn't really correspond.
My point is this - what you give is between you and God. It is good to give, but if you're strapped to the bone and can't - God's not going to withhold his blessing. That's not how God works. Just like in everything when we fail, God remains faithful. If you are convinced that you need to pay off your debt first before giving and it comes from a genuine desire to "owe no man anything" - then I think you are honoring God. If you feel you need to give - maybe only a little - than do so with a clear conscience. This isn't to let us off the hook... just to remember that in all things - sometimes we need to remember there's freedom, there's grace, where there used to be a law that no one could be saved under.
30. pebble said the following at 11:23 AM on Jun 15:
in reference to comment #10's "As a side note, the topic of this blog is about debt and tithing, not tithing in general. All these comments seem like they are preaching to the choir."
can't speak for anyone else, but when i mentioned tithing in spite of financially difficult times, i was incorporating my debt (and my family's debt when we were all younger) into the situation...sorry if that wasn't clear. and maybe my debt/income ratio isn't as high as the couple's, but my brother was in their boat a few years ago. regardless, i've continued to skimp out on the "extras" to be able to continue to tithe and then throw whatever i have left at my loans, instead of inverting that process. hope that clarifies. and since it's more rare that people DON'T have college debt in their first few years out, i'm thinking that most people who have commented about tithing are also simultaneously making their loan/cc payments.
31. Victoria said the following at 11:28 AM on Jun 15:
This was such a timely post! I have been feeling very anxious about our finances as of late because I am expecting our first child in a matter of days, and we will be losing more than half of our income, and we don't have debt but no savings either... Sometimes the thought crosses my mind that if we didn't tithe, or gave less, then we could have a little more money, and I'm tempted to think that if my motivation to withhold giving is so that I can provide for my child, then it's ok. But deep down I know that's sin, ultimately God will provide for our family and child, and not we ourselves, and if we don't give, then that shows that we don't trust God to meet our needs. I believe we are still required to give at least 10% because in the New Testament, Jesus never lowered the Old Testament standards but ALWAYS raised them. (Instead of 'an eye for an eye', He said 'turn the other cheek', etc.) This post was encouraging and a blessing to me at this time.
32. Texas Craig said the following at 12:04 PM on Jun 15:
obewan's comment #18 is well worth reading . . and then reading again. :-)
I agree with obewan's analysis on tithing, which he has expanded on in response to other threads, and I agree we are not currently obligated to tithe.
But, I do not think that lifting the obligation to tithe means I have it easy. Rather, I believe we have a higher standard. Jesus said "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Namely, where we put our money reveals where our heart is.
If our goal is to just give a tithe to God, then we basically are saying that God only deserves a part of our life. But, if we genuinely mean that we desire to follow God with ALL of our life, then we should submit ALL of our finances to Him. That means evaluating every decision with "what would God have me do with this money?"
Many times, asking this question leads to hard decisions - decisions that require us to die to ourselves daily - because the truth is that most of us make financial decisions to benefit our selfish desires and not the desires of God's heart for His children throughout the world. I know that my decisions are mostly selfish -- and I give away more than 10% of my income.
But, in regard to the original question, my answer is to give when I feel led to give, and pay down debt when I feel led to do that. More often, I have felt called to maintain some debt (with low interest rates) and give more generously -- in essence allowing my ability to obtain cheap credit to finance the needs of someone else who doesn't have access to cheap credit (for example, orphans in China). Some might say this is unbiblical, but I am comfortable with the idea of standing before God and answering for my decision to give money for a child's heart surgery rather than paying down my debt sooner.
33. BDB said the following at 12:48 PM on Jun 15:
Let me use an obvious example: if someone is in debt because they bought their Lexus and their boat on credit, therefore they are in debt, it's ridiculous for them to say they need to pay off their debts before giving to God.
I know lots of people who'd say "tithing works." I know that in my case, the years when I was trying to pay off debt first, the years were extremely painful financial struggle. After I changed my theology and started giving, raises and promotions came without my seeking them out, which solved the problem. But I took those raises and poured them 100% into debt reduction, rather than buying a new car, traveling to Europe, etc.
So now, I'm completely convinced that when Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesars, and to God what is Gods," he was in fact referring to the commands for tithing and giving to the poor in the Old Testament. Jesus spoke a LOT about money. If you want to apply a New Testament strategy, you should probably give away ALL your possessions to the poor - you should never get into debt because you'll have given your money away, you won't have any left to pay off the debt.
34. Kelly said the following at 7:27 PM on Jun 15:
Just wanted to say thanks BDB and obewan for the insight!
And a related question: we talk quite freely here about where/how/what missions we give to. Do we have the same honesty in real life?
In my family/church, NO ONE talks about how money, ever. (Which means that no one but me knows about my sister's debt...and it makes you wonder how many other people are silently struggling?)
The lesson I'm learning from it all is that you cannot judge someone on the amount (or lack thereof) of their giving; you can only trust God and know that it's in His hands.
35. Dee said the following at 8:40 PM on Jun 15:
I grew up poor, so I know what that's like. My father wouldn't let me get financial aid, and he lost his job right after I graduated high school, then sat around rather than get another, even though he had offers. I'm the oldest of three, and it took my mother and I both to provide food, power, and shelter! By the time I married, all my carefully accumulated savings had been wiped out and I was in debt.
We paid my way through college, glad that he had gotten financial aid. I worked hard at a job, too, even though I often got very little sleep between evening classes and projects 'til three am.
But until a year ago my husband and I rented the "mother-in-law suite" from his parents. (After I graduated, he went to get his master's degree.) It wasn't easy, since they didn't respect our privacy or our time. It was also humbling, even knowing we were paying a fair rent and our share of utilities. But we made it, with only $10,000 in student loans, by keeping our spending low.
We tithed through it all, even when it hurt. Some said that if we had back all the money we had given the church over those years, we could have moved out earlier.
I think that if we hadn't tithed, God would not have blessed us as He has. We were faithful with our little, and now He has given us more. Our income isn't stellar, but by budgeting and saving, we have enough that only a year after my husband got his master's and his new job, we can buy our own (modest) home!
36. Louise from Chicago said the following at 7:19 AM on Jun 16:
I personally feel giving to charity, if you are able, is important.
In my opinion it's a matter of deciding what works best for you...continuing to give while working on eliminating debt, or deciding to defer giving until you are out of debt, then making up for it afterwards.
I just read an article that since school is out, subsidizied school meals are also "out"....gotta zoom off another check to my local food pantry!