The Flubbering Tummy
by Heather Koerner on 05/19/2009 at 10:00 AM
I was checking my e-mail earlier, attempting to ignore the ads that popped up on the right side of my inbox. Then an ad popped up which I couldn't ignore. It was a tummy. Or two tummies, to be exact. One was, I'm sure you guessed, rock hard, toned and tan. The other was ... not.
But, evidently, it was not enough for these marketers to do the simple side-by-side comparison of tone tummy to flubby tummy. No, these guys decided to animate. So, not only was the second tummy as big and as celluritic as they could make it, it was also flubbering at me.
Nice. Almost without thinking, my hand went to my own tummy. I gave the ad the evil eye and went on my e-mail checking way, only to realize that through the course of about 10 minutes I also got to see a wrinkle ad that transformed a leather-faced woman into an alabaster beauty and some miracle cure that turned yellow teeth gleaming white.
Now, I know that previous generations of women have struggled with their own body images. I've seen clips of those weird contraptions that 1940s and 1950s women used to get a flatter stomach. But, really, you have to think that there's something original about our generation. I mean, at least my grandma didn't have to see the flubbering tummy while opening up her mail.
It seems that wherever I look, I get two messages. First, that beautiful is important. Second, that I'm just not beautiful enough. But, most of the time, it's okay. I know they're trying to sell me something.
What I struggle with more than the ads, truthfully, is in trying to figure out how exactly a pursuit of physical beauty fits (if it fits at all) with a pursuit of righteousness. As a believer, should I strive to be physically beautiful? God's Word tells me that it's inner beauty that matters to God. So, should I not care about physical beauty? Or is it okay to do certain things (like eat healthy and exercise) but not others (like make-up or tanning or liposuction)? Is there a line? And, if so, where is it?
Seems like others are dealing with these questions too. Mary Kassian wrote recently that the problem is "not that we pursue beauty too much, but that we don't pursue it nearly enough." (What does she mean? Read it here.) Carolyn McCulley writes to encourage us to notice, and appreciate, those women who are "Doing Beautiful." And, as for me, I wrote an article for Boundless a couple of weeks ago called "Balancing Beauty" where I tried to work out the answers to my own questions.
"I want so much to get this beauty thing right, to see it through God's eyes. To be aware of Satan's lies that my whole worth is in my outer beauty or, even conversely, that how I present myself makes absolutely no difference.
But there is no magic formula. As with most subjects, God doesn't give us a rule, He gives us a priority: Him."
1. Craig M. said the following at 10:30 AM on May 19:
I live in San Diego--home of the now world-renowned Carrie Prejean. A few weeks ago, there were advertisements all over conservative radio from a local megachurch where Miss California would be "speaking and sharing...all three services!" on Sunday. I was perplexed. Yes, I agree with her on gay marriage, and she shouldn't have been savaged, but that hardly makes her a fount of wisdom. She's 21 years old. And she's famous for wearing a bikini well, for heaven's sake!
Interesting that the church itself will draw on sex appeal if it might pump up the Sunday numbers a bit. I wonder how all the women in the congregation felt about sitting through a Sunday "message" (full of theological insight, no doubt) from the 21-year-old "Deal or No Deal" girl.
Heather is right, we (as Christians) need to re-direct our focus.
2. Brian Krieger said the following at 10:39 AM on May 19:
Mary Kassian had a good word related to this recently.
I take it that the ad was trying to convince you that you'll get more pickup lines thrown your way or something (ha ha)?!
3. Rachael said the following at 11:30 AM on May 19:
One nice thing about gmail is that I don't see pictures of advertisements. They do, though, have one-liner advertisements based on information they see in your e-mail. Recently I'm trying to keep my gmail inbox down and archived a lot of messages to do so and now try to delete or move messages into 'labels' (like folders). So right now I have only one message in my inbox (though tons elsewhere), it's an advertisement email for BitDefender, and of course Gmail took note and chose their advertisement for BitDefender for me. But it's only one line above my inbox. I wouldn't want to see advertisements all the time. I also have yahoo and hotmail and get mostly junk at those emails - think one or both of those may have picture advertisements. Anyway I recommend gmail. I also don't like how facebook can have ads of women popping up on the side, but I like how with many of its advertisements you can 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' advertisements. It's nice.
Ads are so out there and are likely intrusive to many....I've never researched this, but I wouldn't be surprised if ads and other forms of media are a frequent contributor to women's obsessions on beauty and anorexia. Maybe in the next generation the ads will be be more inclusive and not idolize limited body types...
4. Lydia said the following at 12:41 PM on May 19:
I admit that I burst out laughing sometimes when I see those. XD
5. Sean said the following at 12:52 PM on May 19:
Hi Heather, and everyone.
I'm going to go off on a sort of related rabbit trail. This post brings up something that I'd love to see Boundless address.
As a guy, I'm glad for articles like these. I'm glad for the reality check, and I'm glad for the consistent reminder to think about beauty in a biblical context.
As you may know, guys struggle with this as well. Not in the category of "beauty" so much, but definitely concerning body image. Many guys would be just as affected by flubbering belly vs. rock-hard abs advertisment which Heather witnessed.
I've seen this topic addressed a few times too (thankfully), but never in a way that relates to me directly. Why? Because I'm skinny. Thin. Lean. Whatever.
It seems like it's not a social taboo so constantly, and I mean CONSTANTLY, comment on the size of a skinny guy.
"How do you eat so much and stay so thin?"
"Where does it all go?"
You should hang out with us more, we'd put some meat on your bones!"
"Have you ever tried to gain weight?"
"You can have the last piece, you need it more than me."
People need to understand that in a hyper-competitive, steroid-infused culture, being skinny is not cool. The pressures are everywhere. Try working out in a gym and not compare yourself; try playing sports you love and not be able to keep up strength-wise.
But because the culture tends to struggle more with being overweight than underweight, there aren't many health risks associated with being skinny, and so there are no taboos prohibit poking fun. It's not seen as the least bit insensitive.
And add your singleness to the mix and you begin to really, really struggle as you make some connections.
Now, for the record, I'm not emaciated, but I am underweight. According to my doctor, I'm one of the healthiest people he knows, and shouldn't worry about it. I'm fairly athletic, and do work out. In fact, I wasted a whole semester in college trying to gain weight, so I've done it all: lift, eat 5-6 times a day, protein, creatine, etc. I went overboard, but now I'm more balanced. So I've tried.
As to the more important eternal things,I do my best to focus on developing myself in godly ways: character, stewardship, hard work, ministry, etc. I've been a ministry leader, have dsicipled a lot of young guys, and am a fairly gifted speaker. I've been encouraged my older men who mentor me that I'm on the right track and developing well in my walk with Christ.
All that to say everything looks good "on paper." But when it comes to the real world, pursuing relationships, and really trying to find my identity in Christ, it's amazing how one snarky comment from a friend can throw me off, cause a root of bitterness tp develop in my heart, and really really lament over myself in the mirror (concerning my weight or my singleness).
So, please, this is a call to sensitivity and respect. You would never make a joke, comment, or observation about an obese person's weight, right? I hope not. You don't know what their internal struggles are. Just like you don't know if a thin person struggles with an eating disorder, drug addiction, medical condition, etc. So be sensitive. A few of my thin friends agree. It gets old, and it gets discouraging.
Remember, for every lady that feels pressured to look like the prom queen, there is a guy who feels pressured to look like the star quarterback, and just as many struggle with the pressure to bulk up as some do to slim down. Thanks.
6. Ronnica said the following at 1:49 PM on May 19:
I struggle with this, too. I tend to alternate between spending too much time/money on trying to look good, and ignoring it all together. It's such a hard balance, especially when I only see when I've gone too far.
@Sean (#5): It's hard. I don't see being skinny as a bad thing, so it's hard to remember that it might be a sore point for another, just as my weight may be a sore point for me.
7. Tami said the following at 1:51 PM on May 19:
Craig M, fair warning, I quoted you in the "Blowin' In the Wind" post comments.
I wanted to respond but I thought my points were more relevant there, rather than in Heather's post :)
8. Last One Home's Not Really Home said the following at 2:45 PM on May 19:
I love being beautiful. I know I spend more time pursuing it than I do pursuing God... and one day when I am older and not beautiful anymore, I will lose my entire identity-- and that realization frightens me.
I know it is critical that I change my attitude toward beauty and toward God, but I still believe it is alright to work to be as beautiful as you can be.....maybe? Minus surgical alterations?
9. Aadel said the following at 4:46 PM on May 19:
Last One Home's,
What scares me about your comment is that you feel that you will one day grow old and not be beautiful anymore.
Our culture has told us that beauty has a certain shape, size, and color. I say that all persons have beauty, whether it be in physical appearance, abilities, or a myriad of other things.
If you mold your entire life around looking physically attractive, then you will lose your identity, to the world that tells you what physical traits you should have and what to do with them. You will never lose your identity in Christ if you allow yourself to be led by the Holy Spirit and not by the flesh.
Even if you don't struggle with your weight (which I do), our bodies are slowly failing us each day. We must think of our bodies as vessels, not the whole of our existence, and treat it as consecrated to God, not wandering eyes.
10. Janise said the following at 5:03 PM on May 19:
I struggled the hardest and was hurt the most by this issue about a year ago when my then-boyfriend (now-husband) and I were going through pre-marital counseling with my pastor. It came out in our first session that my boyfriend, if he could change one thing about me, would change my looks. (Now before all readers get livid with him, let me make the disclaimer that he fully admitted that this dissatisfaction of his was not at all based in reality and had no fault in me. It was a fault of his because of an image he had pre-supposed in his mind, largely based on his past struggles with pornography.) Obviously, this proved to be very hurtful and spun me into a whirlwind of struggle with body image. Now let me be clear, this shook my self image not my self worth. I am fully aware that my worth and value as a person come from Christ and not my physical appearance and that was not at all cast into question. The struggle was: how will I deal with not feeling like my future-husband is satisfied my appearance? Later that week, I met with the women's minister from my church to discuss it all and what she told me then helped put everything into perspective. She said that our bodies are a gift that God has given to us, and like all other of his gift, we are called to be good stewards of them. So we are not to pretend like working on physical appearance doesn't matter at all. We are however to be the best steward we can be of what we have been given without making that gift an idol. Now I have been given a body that will never be a size 2, I do know, however, that it most likely is meant to be a size 8 so I must not be complacent and be a size 14. But when I have done what is reasonable to be a good steward of my body I must be content with that size 8. And so I am doing what is reasonable to be a good steward of my body without making the act of that stewardship an idol. And I am choosing to be ok with the results; because, as stewards, I believe, we are called to responsibility and sacrifice not necessarily results. And when I am content with my stewardship then no one else can rob me of that contentment with their opinions, not even a husband. (Who, by the way, through lots of prayer and God's great grace, has grown to be wildy attracted to me and perfectly content with my looks.)
11. abc said the following at 5:15 PM on May 19:
Henry Ward Beecher said, "Clothes do not make the man, but once he is made, they greatly improve his appearance."
12. the most frequent Kate said the following at 5:56 PM on May 19:
I guess my comment is just offering a lot of big question marks about why you would even be tempted to consider the consumerist media's depiction of beauty as a standard against which you can/should/deserve to measure yourself? It's such a flagrant lie, and at this point I have become so aware and so saturated with how much of a lie it all is that I'm starting to have a hard time understanding how anyone can actually believe it and get emotionally invested in pursuit of this lie.
I soooo dislike those flubbering belly ads! I am generally angered by any weight loss ads that promote anything other than healthy balancing of stress, diet and exercise because anything but that is such a false message! So I pretty much ignore them. I wish I could "thumbs down" those ads on facebook!
I used to feel bad about my body weight as a high schooler, which was rather absurd when I was 5'2 and had a weight range of 120-140 lbs. I also used to read a lot more magazines, watch a lot more TV and movies, and give much more undue credit to institutions such as MTV as the masters and defenders of what is beautiful and desirable!
I think learning to think critically about these kinds of LIES promoted by the media and commercialism was part of being able to stop feeling that way. It's absolutely a conspiracy constructed in order to sell products to people that aren't actually useful to them, and perhaps there is also a motivation to dominate/oppress women mixed into it too. (why not while they're at it?)
The thing that helped me the most was just learning more about the health side of weight. In the past few years I have learned much more about nutrition and eating well (while not eating too much), and keeping up with moderate exercise. In addition to those I have also learned to cope with stress much better.
I never got very overweight in college, but I did get slightly into that range on the official "BMI" measurement and other methods of measuring body fat. Now that I am living a healthier lifestyle I weigh in my appropriate "BMI range" and I feel much better physically than I used to when I weighed 20 lbs more, as in pants don't pinch, chest area is less burdensome in all ways, and not getting out of breath as easy and so on. I also know that I'm not putting extra stress on my body with the extra weight pressing on my joints and organs, stressing my heart and circulatory system, stressing my insulin system, and otherwise the extra metabolism required from overeating unhealthy foods. Of course emotionally I've also moved away from things like eating out of boredom or a bad mood.
Sure I have some "fat" on me that would disqualify me for modeling... It's funny because even though I like the way my body looks alright, it's really not much of a motivation or a "reward" to me. I just like to avoid extra pain and discomfort physically, and know that I'm not adding to my risk of long-term illness.
I read an interesting study a while back with middle aged women and attempted weight loss. I can't remember whether the women were modifying exercise or diet or both, but what the study found is that their viewpoints about why they were trying to lose weight were important. Women who were trying to lose for appearance did not lose as much as women who were doing it for health... and if I remember right didn't maintain as well either. Pretty interesting for a discussion on beauty I think!
Also, here are some interesting things you can look at to learn more about why you shouldn't believe the lies you see in ads, even the models don't really look like how the look in the pictures:
http://demo.fb.se/e/girlpower/retouch/
http://jessedocs.blogspot.com/2008/10/current-project-clips.html
It occurred to me while writing this comment to wonder about this: what do you think the Proverbs 31 woman thought about her appearance? How would she react upon seeing deceptive weight loss ads?
13. Craig M. said the following at 6:18 PM on May 19:
Aadel (#10)--I agree that beauty is far from the most important thing in the world, but you're kidding yourself when you assert that beauty does not have a "certain size, shape," etc. We shouldn't indulge in delusion. Some people really are more beautiful than others, and physical beauty does fade with time, to be replaced (hopefully) with more fully developed character and a beautiful soul. A proper sense of aesthetics recognizes that some things are more beautiful than others. Some buildings are beautiful monuments to God or to human freedom; others are garish testimonies to personal hubris or (worse) totalitarianism and oppression. Some vistas are a reflection of God's untouched artistry, and some are the result of human corruption in the form of war, pollution, etc. And some people, likewise, are more beautiful than others. There's little correlation between morality and physical human beauty, though we should always recall that gluttony and laziness are sins. But while acknowledging that human physical beauty is not really that important--which it isn't--we shouldn't fall into the trap of pretending that beauty doesn't exist, or that all things are equally beautiful.
14. Britainy said the following at 6:28 PM on May 19:
In my opinion, our bodies are God's temple, so we need to keep 'em neat. So yeah, I think it's ok if we keep in shape & keep our bodies healthy. Being obsessed with looking pretty 24/7/365 is not being focused on God. Hopefully that made some sense! :-)
15. Rachael said the following at 6:32 PM on May 19:
Well this doesn't necessarily relate to tummies... another issue about looks is looking too young.
Today I was guessed to be "the daughter" of my husband (I'm his first wife and we don't have any kids). And recently someone was wondering if I was still in high school (maybe because of what I said about my past). I'm 28 but frequently wear a ponytail, and little to no makeup, so those might be the culprits.
Maybe especially people in their 30s or 40s on up who don't have a lot of exposure to high schoolers - 20s can't tell as easily because they may not notice subtle fashion/hair changes, or maybe they grew up in other states where women might tend to address fashion and makeup more carefully and therefore look older? While there are definitely women who might look more formal-ish here, it is very common to find people who have a laid back, comfortable, outdoorish fashion instead of an uncomfortably formal look (though some of course have those looks too), perhaps more than in some states (due to my lack of living in other states knowledge stereotype)...
Anyway I guess fashion, makeup and hairstyles really can really make a difference in youngening and oldening the look....
I know I should rethink the ponytail, but they're so convenient and easy...
16. Rachael said the following at 6:59 PM on May 19:
most frequent Kate - even if you can't understand how someone might struggle with the issue, can't you understand how as humans we struggle with lies we tell ourselves...?
Maybe learning to think critically, as you suggest, would indeed help...and maybe acceptance (even if [worst case scenario] were true, it's okay;I can live with that;etc.) and telling the truth to ourselves would help also.
I'm generally okay with my looks, but I still like affirmation and will probably always hope my husband will be attracted to me (he is, though). I fall for lies in other areas (though maybe also the looks area in weird ways).
I came across this quote: "Have you realized that most of your unhappiness in life is due to the fact that you are listening to yourself instead of talking to yourself?". You can find it at least here: http://theologica.blogspot.com/2007/06/talk-dont-listen-to-yourself.html and in the book mentioned.
I don't know if most of happiness is really caused by that, but of course our hearts are deceitful. Emotions too, I think.
Seems that reminding ourselves of God's truths would help fight the lies (related to whatever) that penetrate the feelings and heart.
17. Amir Larijani said the following at 7:19 PM on May 19:
I've been on both sides of the coin here. In high school--and even college--I played a fair amount of sports, and stayed in shape. For most of my adult life, I've been in very good shape.
But there was a 2-year stretch where it got away from me, and my idea of "weight watchers" was watching my weight soar.
I have pictures from those days. I refer to that time of my life by terms that I will not repeat here. (Tom Neven, our Marine consultant, would be quite versed in those terms, however...)
For almost all of the last 9 years, I've been a complete gym rat. My dad--who runs marathons competitively at 65--and I can talk fitness hours on end.
Still, I know what it's like to be medically obese. I've been there, done that, got the flight jacket. It's not fun. For lack of better words, it sucks. (Especially in my case, because it was due to factors over which I should have had better control.)
Being in shape feels good. I have significant medical issues--very severe arthritis and degenerative disc problems in my back--but still manage to stay in shape. (God bless whoever invented the elliptical cross-trainer!)
Do I pursue this to look good? Not really. I'll take that fringe benefit, however.
18. BDB said the following at 7:33 PM on May 19:
So sorry Rachael!
I have actually seen people age differently and end up with these kinds of diverging looks. One guy I thought was in his late 20's was actually much older - but always wearing a baseball cap and sweatshirt. His wife looked like his mom.
Though, fashion may be easier to change than the convenient pony tail. Two people wearing Eddie Bauer and REI probably look like they belong together.
19. Eli said the following at 7:54 PM on May 19:
Two things from a guy's perspective...
1. Yes, I struggle with the tummy thing, I exercise like crazy, run marathons but I eat like crazy too. I admit that pursuing "six pac," often deters my focus away from God sometimes. I think Christians should be healthy and treat their body as a temple but we must be careful not to make it the focus. I often see large, obese Christians in their young age and I think they do need to try to harder to live a healthy lifestyle that honor the body that God has given us. It's matter of self control and discipline, both characters that we need to achieve (I don't have it)
2. As a guy another struggle is seeking that beauty in a woman. As the previous post talked about how the husband wasn't attracted due to previous pornographic addiction, most guys struggle with this as well. Lust and pornography is every men's struggle and we dealt with it at some point in our lives. I admit that my idea of "beauty" has to be met and that I am very picky, I know it's wrong but it's hard... It's not that I don't know what biblical beauty is, it's just that I want physical beauty as well... Plus you shouldn't start a relationship with a female you are not attracted to, problem is that most guys have such unrealistic idea of beauty that the attraction can be rare. I struggle with it... I tend to like good Christian girls who are really beautiful... my question is up to what point is seeking physical beauty wrong? As long as I don't compromise on a woman's biblical characters, standards, can I still search for a woman who is beautiful to me? It may take a long time lol.
20. Heidi said the following at 9:44 PM on May 19:
I hate those ads... Those ads are the reason I finally got ad blocking software for my browser. I'm not sure what browser you use, but if you search for adblock 'yourbrowser' you may find something.
21. IWishToRemainAnonymous said the following at 10:19 PM on May 19:
I feel like, in addition to the world's unrealistic, airbrushed standards, the expectations in Christian circles are awfully high sometimes as well. Case in point: about a year ago, I was at a Christian bookstore glancing through a book for women in which the author told about past weight issues - namely that every time her husband saw her with a doughnut in her hand, he'd cringe, because she'd gained a lot of weight (I think from a pregnancy but I could be wrong) which made her unattractive to him, and the doughnut symbolized the fact that she wasn't doing anything to fix the problem. A few months later, I heard a guest on a well-known Christian radio program basically state that wives need to keep themselves as fit and attractive as possible to "compete" with the beautiful and immodest women that their husbands will see at work, in the store, on billboards, etc.
The result in my life? I'm at a point now where when my boyfriend says he finds me attractive, I feel like he's just saying that to make me feel better, or else I think it's just that I've skillfully kept the unattractive parts covered up and he's in for a rude awakening if/when we marry. I hate what I see in the mirror every day, and when I go for my annual checkup my doctor typically suggests I should go to a therapist to deal with my body image issues.
It's not just the world...
22. Vanessa said the following at 11:29 PM on May 19:
I once joked on a blog that Facebook thinks I'm fat and MySpace thinks I can't get a date. Those are all the ads that come at me, targeting a 29 (almost 30) year old single female.
It's rather annoying, yet sad at the same time. Yes, I am overweight and it isn't because I eat too much or not healthy and don't work out. It is that my body has been chemically altered by medication that I was not fully made aware of the risks. Months of intense working out and watching every bite that went into my mouth didn't make the scale budge.
I tend to judge people on their inner appearance and how they handle themselves rather than their outer appearance myself. I literally "see" people as attractive who are beautiful inside and not necessarily beautiful outside. I also, conversely, see people as not so attractive as they physically are if they are not beautiful inside.
I just think that if more guys would "chase" after bigger girls who are kind and Godly and trying to look and be their best physically (not lazy or frumpy, but really trying), maybe we COULD change at least the Christian point of view. However, when good Christian guys won't date chubby girls because they aren't "attractive" and continue to date outwardly beautiful girls who are not so nice and kind; it doesn't do any of us any good to complain.
I'm grateful that I've found a man who sees how beautiful I am on the inside and he is not ashamed or afraid to be seen with me! I'm praying that he's the one I will marry, God willing.
23. Jo said the following at 5:49 AM on May 20:
Craig M,
"you're kidding yourself when you assert that beauty does not have a "certain size, shape," etc."
I don't think Aadel was denying that beauty exists, or that some people are naturally more physically beautiful than others. But I agree with him that you can't define beauty by particular sizes or shapes. Unhealthy extremes are usually not attractive, but there's a huge variety of different looks in the 'normal' range, and beautiful people aren't in a separate category of clones.
24. obewan said the following at 7:21 AM on May 20:
This is a sensitive topic and a balanced view is required. While I sympathize with people who have a metabolism problem, I think the majority of overweight people do not.
It is too easy in our culture to use the "beauty is only skin deep" mantra to shirk off diet concerns. America also has some bad eating habits that could stand to be improved.
In our church singles group, the majority of the women have serious weight control issues. And I have a hard time showing any sympathy when watching them eat. I saw one shovel in THREE glazed Krispy Kremes with her coffee in one sitting. Another shoveled in three very full plates of food at a potluck, followed up by THREE pieces of high fat pie for dessert.
Reality is that it only gets worse with age. It only takes a gain of 2 or 3 pounds a year to really put it on over 10 or 20 years. That is why many older people have paunch and most younger people do not.
I vote for diets. I am on one myself and have lost about 15 lbs in the last year. I am now 3 lbs over the middle of my ideal weight range for my BMI and am officially no longer "overweight". All it takes is a diet of soups for lunch and Lean Cuisines for other meals.
25. Loris said the following at 7:54 AM on May 20:
Most Frequent Kate #12, I'm pretty much where you are on the whole "exercising for health and feeling better" thing. I started jogging on the elliptical a few months ago and dropped some weight, much to my surprise.
One thing I'd like to mention is that I don't feel that BMI charts scale up enough with added height. They also don't take into account women's breast size or muscle weight. I get frustrated with them because I don't feel they accurately reflect my health or appearance. For example, I'm 5'10 and 175 lbs. The BMI charts count that as overweight. But the chart doesn't know that I have a large chest, a naturally-muscular build, eschew fast food, and that I exercise 3-4 times a week. I console myself with the fact that every doctor I've been to has never said a word about my weight or fitness level. Thinking about the BMI charts is just discouraging.
26. BDB said the following at 10:49 AM on May 20:
Since men prefer to offer solutions instead of just listening, let me recommend Yahoo Mail, where for $20/year you get ad-free mail, complete with unlimited storage, 100 filters, good spam-filtering and built-in Norton antivirus.
I've found that the ads on facebook get better by thumbs-upping the good ads (like for hickory-smoked bacon) and thumbs-downing the bad ones.
And in Pirate English, it's fun to select the reason as "treasonous." :D
27. Mark W said the following at 11:17 AM on May 20:
Here's another solution to consider, which is free and has LOTS of other benefits:
Firefox [http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/] + Adblock Plus [http://adblockplus.org/]
It also will work on every site you visit, not just email sites and facebook.
28. Tami said the following at 11:39 AM on May 20:
I Wish (21): I know what book you're referring to. I can't stand it because, though it purports to inform, and it's not wholly lies, it justifies men's behaviors (along the "they can't help it" line) and plays into women's fears. It's like the little piece of meat wrapped around a sharp bone; swallow whole at your own risk.
If a woman is expected to stop herself from eating that extra donut, a man *can* help himself from sinfully comparing his wife to other women and holding her to some unrealistic, media-driven standard of beauty. *Both* need to be controlled by the Spirit in their thoughts and actions.
We need to be realistic; yes, a healthy body is more attractive and, well, healthy than an overweight one. But what is "overweight" (answer: not 5 pounds!)? And what is "beautiful" (Answer: the definition is broader than a fantasy image!)? And is it really *right* to instill a fear in women that they must look like they did in high school or their husband will reject them for a fantasy image or a younger woman?
I *constantly* question the Christian publishing industry. I would ask, "why is this stuff so popular?" but it's really a reflection of the American culture as a whole. Which is a whole, 'nother, sad ball of wax.
/rant over.
To encourage those of you who are discouraged: not too long ago, I found out that a guy who I was *certain* was *not* attracted to me *at all* considered me totally beautiful. Men can, and will, surprise you pleasantly :) So please don't be so hard on yourselves. If there's something you can do to be healthier, do it. But don't beat yourself up, and don't live a life taunted by the enemy's lie that no one will ever find you beautiful.
29. BDB said the following at 12:14 PM on May 20:
OK, for the people who say they've done the gym and the diet and it didn't affect anything...that's not mathematically possible.
What probably helped me the most was getting a digital kitchen scale, and for a period of two weeks, rigorously weighed EVERYTHING. Including the buter I put on my toast.
(Fun fact: the serving size on whipped butter is 7g - which is correct, PER SLICE.)
If you do this, and count up all the calories, you will have at least an honest picture of what you're eating. I discovered I was eating 1000 calories/day more than I needed to be. But I didn't really face that reality until I did the math.
It's VERY easy to wipe out the benefit of 1/2 hour at the gym by having, say, an extra glass of milk because you've earned it. The portion-control people are right!
30. Tami said the following at 12:43 PM on May 20:
I agree with BDB. Keeping rigorous track of what you eat is a critical part of gaining an accurate picture of your caloric intake.
Otherwise you *are* more willing to justify that extra spread of PB, or that extra cookie, because you earned it at the gym :)
31. obewan said the following at 1:59 PM on May 20:
One of the women in the singles group is in weight watchers. She got this awesome digital scale from them. It has a computer chip in it with all the foods. All you have to do is scroll up the item in display window and weigh it, and the scale automatically tells how many calories it has. That would be the only way for me to do it. Any other tracking method takes a bit of effort.
32. Ice said the following at 2:27 PM on May 20:
Craig #1,
I also live in the SD area, beautiful women everywhere. Not only that, but Carrie also has taken nude photos and lied on a number of occasions in the past few weeks about everything, got plastic surgery, etc.
IWishToRemainAnonymous #21
The 2 first stories I agree with. Ive seen women running WITH strollers! there's really no excuse, this coming from a guy who myself needs to shed some pounds. Countless times Ive heard young women at church say "i want a man to love me for who I am," while not doing anything to get/stay in shape. So do women who are in shape not also want the same thing? No woman is going to have a perfect body and I think most reasonable men, at least the ones a Christian would want, understand this.
Women who exercise regularly are generally more happy, which is an attractive quality. So please, stop using the "God looks on the inside," which is true, as a crutch for the reality of "I'm too lazy."
33. Tami said the following at 2:30 PM on May 20:
obewan: I think some of those scales will even tell you the "points."
34. obewan said the following at 3:12 PM on May 20:
obewan: I think some of those scales will even tell you the "points."
Yes. Her scale did points. If I was on that system I would get one. Right now I am just on a regular portion control diet where I eat the same type of thing every day. I could get more variety if I went by points.
35. NeedACatchyName said the following at 3:48 PM on May 20:
I think #5 makes a good point that guys aren't immune from this. In much the same way that girls are bombarded with magazines and advertisements telling them that they must be super-thin or they'll never find a boyfriend, guys are also bombarded with "fitness" magazines and advertisements that imply that you must have ripped biceps and six pack abs in order to attract girls. And if you think that the male gender doesn't obsess over body image like girls...go to the weight room of your local gym. While there will be many guys there working out just to stay in shape, there will also be several guys who are obsessively toning every square inch of their physique because they've bought into the idea that unless you have bulging muscles and are built like an action figure then you'll never attract the female you want.
As far as staying in shape goes, the key is to pick a sensible diet/exercise plan and stick with it. Once you get past the first few weeks of staying in shape it becomes second nature, but the initial phases aren't fun. I know when I first started going to the gym I couldn't believe how tortuous the first two weeks were and how worn out I was afterward. Now I look forward to going and getting to burn off some energy after work. Likewise, I've never actually "dieted" before, but I do try to watch my caloric intake more that I used to. Once again, when I first started, I found that I was constantly hungry. But now I find that I prefer smaller, more properly sized portions, and the idea of an oversized meal that leaves you "uncomfortably full" doesn't really appeal to me at all.
36. NeedACatchyName said the following at 4:03 PM on May 20:
As a sidenote, how about a Boundless article/blog post on sensible ways to stay in shape? That is, practical tips for both males and females on how to tread the middle ground between the world's unrealistic body image ideals and the need for us to take care of our bodies (since they are temples, after all) and make an effort stay in shape.
37. Tami said the following at 4:17 PM on May 20:
obewan -- another helpful thing about WW is that they recommend a certain number of vegetables/fruits, milk products, oils, water, etc. to eat each day. That, in itself, helps you stay balanced.
You might ask your friend about that. Not so much to follow WW, but to get a sense of how you can help balance your diet out and have more variety.
Also you can subscribe to their emails and get some good tips about getting a variety of foods in your diet. And some good recipes as well. I don't think you have to be a member to get those.
Now that I sound like a big ad for WW... :) this is just a recommendation, which I found helpful myself!
38. IWishToRemainAnonymous said the following at 4:58 PM on May 20:
Tami (#28) - you put it well - that if a woman is expected to show all that restraint, so should the man. I couldn't quite put my finger on the problem but I think it comes down to this: sources like this always seem to make it the woman's fault. If a man sees an immodestly dressed woman and thinks lustful thoughts, it's the woman's fault for dressing that way. It a married man stumbles, it's his wife's fault for not looking like a model.
Ice (#32) and others - if it were possible for all of us to stay in shape and look attractive, I'm quite certain more of us would be doing it. A few months ago I went on a strict diet and worked out virtually every day, about an hour a day. At the end of the first month I was just as heavy, my measurements were actually larger, and I loathed myself all the more. "Eat less, move more" had no effect on my weight and shape. Four months of working out hours a day (to the point of almost worshipping exercise, waking up in the morning planning ways to sneak in an extra workout, etc.) didn't change anything either. It's horribly discouraging. Please don't assume that an overweight girl doesn't care or is lazy. There is often much more to it than that.
39. Mike said the following at 6:15 PM on May 20:
IWishToRemainAnonymous (#38) said:
"I couldn't quite put my finger on the problem but I think it comes down to this: sources like this always seem to make it the woman's fault. If a man sees an immodestly dressed woman and thinks lustful thoughts, it's the woman's fault for dressing that way. It a married man stumbles, it's his wife's fault for not looking like a model."
That's funny. As a man, I tend to hear the opposite message: That no matter how a woman dresses, it's the man's problem not to look. And if a woman has an affair, it's the man's fault for not loving her well enough. But if a man has an affair, it's just his fault for not keeping it at home.
Hmn...maybe we both have an issue with our perceptive filters?
:-)
40. the most frequent Kate said the following at 6:26 PM on May 20:
Rachael 15: I understand that people can lie to themselves and be deceived and I know what that is like from personal experience in many areas of life. I know what the thought processes look like and so on. I think you missed what I meant. I was not trying to deny the reality of that experience but was trying to describe the gravity of my transformation and the difference that a raised consciousness about these issues can make. Literally, that you can find such clarity and peace and come so far away from what it's like to live under those lies that it's hard to see anymore how it is even possible for people to believe that stuff.
Loris-25: I agree that BMI isn't the best measurement of weight for everyone. It's based on an average, so if you have larger breasts/heavier bones/more muscle weight, BMI doesn't account for that! In your case, a better measurement of the "healthiness" of your weight would probably be the skin fold percent body fat method, since it doesn't accidentally include the weight from breasts, bones or muscle mass in the measurement. Since I am of pretty average proportions, I've had similar results from BMI, skin fold, and that electronic method of measuring percent body fat when I had occasions to try them. At those times I actually was slightly overweight by BMI classification and I had been telling myself that it probably wasn't a fair measure, so I was really disappointed when the percent body fat measures showed the same level of overweight for me!
AND I second NeedACatchyName #36!!! Not only would I like to see some discussion on physical activity/exercise, but especially more on EATING! Practical advice is good, but I'd also like to delve into the "deeper" sides of why we decide to do what we do and what it means in our lives, as well as exploring our attitudes towards those who do not live healthy lifestyles in regards to weight food and exercise. How are our relationships with food related to spirituality? I feel like this subject is so often ignored by Christians I interact with.
41. BDB said the following at 6:28 PM on May 20:
#38 - OK, there's another step in the process. The calculation I used was 9 calories per pound at the desired BMI of 25, which is the very top of the "normal" range.
While I haven't actually gotten to the BMI of 25 yet, I did lose 50 lbs. It took more than a decade after college to gain that much - but it didn't change until I took an honest look and realized that, snacks included, I was consuming a 3000-calorie diet, when it should have been about 1700/day.
42. Heather Koerner said the following at 6:33 PM on May 20:
Tami (#28) and IWTRA (#38):
Let me play advocate for the guys here. Instead of looking at beauty and modesty as a "fault" issue ("if they lust, it's my fault" or "if they have an affair, it's my fault"), it helps for me to look at it as a "blessing" issue.
In other words, when I take care of myself physically, when I take the time to shower, put on makeup and ditch the sweats even though every moment of my day has been spent taking care of kids, it blesses my husband. It shows him that I love him in the same way that his phone calls, flowers and household help show me that he loves me.
When I dress modestly, it is a blessing to those men around me. I know that clothes have the power to turn a man's head and provoke certain thoughts. The fact that I try not to do that is a blessing to them.
It also helps to think of it as a stewardship issue. A man with a million dollars is expected to steward his money just as a man with 20 thousand is. I am not Cindy Crawford (or whoever). But I can steward this body that God has given me to the best of my ability and to His glory.
Both women and men do need to understand where true beauty lies--in a gentle and quiet spirit that the Lord values. But that doesn't mean that our physical appearance can't be a blessing to others as well.
43. Amir Larijani said the following at 6:49 PM on May 20:
IWishToRemainAnonymous says:
I feel like, in addition to the world's unrealistic, airbrushed standards, the expectations in Christian circles are awfully high sometimes as well. Case in point: about a year ago, I was at a Christian bookstore glancing through a book for women in which the author told about past weight issues - namely that every time her husband saw her with a doughnut in her hand, he'd cringe, because she'd gained a lot of weight (I think from a pregnancy but I could be wrong) which made her unattractive to him, and the doughnut symbolized the fact that she wasn't doing anything to fix the problem.
Addressing this case requires more knowledge of the situation. On the other hand, all things being equal, a husband's (wife's) concern about his (her) wife's (husband's) neglect of her (his) health is not in and of itself a bad thing.
I make these qualifications, because weight issues are an issue common to both sexes. The obesity stats I've seen have the men (33%) almost as bad statistically as the women (35%). I've long held that weight issues go both ways, and anyone who puts it all on the women is not being honest with respect to the facts.
A few months later, I heard a guest on a well-known Christian radio program basically state that wives need to keep themselves as fit and attractive as possible to "compete" with the beautiful and immodest women that their husbands will see at work, in the store, on billboards, etc.
That advice has no Biblical foundation, and if I were the host of that program, I'd rip the guest a new one.
There is no good reason for husbands (wives) to compare their wives (husbands) with anyone else. When Christians get married, they enter a covenant. For better or worse...
No one else is relevant.
The result in my life? I'm at a point now where when my boyfriend says he finds me attractive, I feel like he's just saying that to make me feel better, or else I think it's just that I've skillfully kept the unattractive parts covered up and he's in for a rude awakening if/when we marry. I hate what I see in the mirror every day, and when I go for my annual checkup my doctor typically suggests I should go to a therapist to deal with my body image issues.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. I cannot answer for your boyfriend, but personally I'd cut the guys some slack. If he is complementing you for taking care of yourself, then is that a bad thing?
44. Amir Larijani said the following at 7:42 PM on May 20:
Ice says:
The 2 first stories I agree with. Ive seen women running WITH strollers! there's really no excuse, this coming from a guy who myself needs to shed some pounds.
Not necessarily true. If one has severe medical issues, that can preclude one from many exercises. I am a former marathoner who can no longer run due to catastrophic arthritis.
While I am very fit, I am also the exception to the rule, and am also fortunate to have access to state-of-the-art equipment that allows me to compensate for my lack of ability to run.
All do not have such luxuries.
Countless times Ive heard young women at church say "i want a man to love me for who I am," while not doing anything to get/stay in shape.
Similarly, men who do not take care of themselves--statistically about the same as the women--are in no position to critique the women on this front.
(As a fitness nut, I may have room to talk, but even then I'm guarded about it because I know what obesity feels like. I would speak more freely--uncensored--about this in less polite company.)
So do women who are in shape not also want the same thing?
Most do; some are ambivalent. Just like the men. And the degree of importance of this varies from person to person.
No woman is going to have a perfect body and I think most reasonable men, at least the ones a Christian would want, understand this.
"Reasonable" is the key word, and I would caution men and women alike to not make the proverbial "perfect"--however the heck one defines it--the enemy of the good.
I have a pretty big tent on the "reasonable" front.
Women who exercise regularly are generally more happy, which is an attractive quality.
Ditto for the men.
So please, stop using the "God looks on the inside," which is true, as a crutch for the reality of "I'm too lazy."
While I know of women who use that crutch, (a) there are men who implicitly do the same, (b) there are men and women of both sexes who have legitimate medical hindrances in that department, and (c) men and women alike can afford to do a better job of looking beyond mere physical attractiveness.
That some use that as a crutch does not make the advice less relevant.
45. Rachael said the following at 8:04 PM on May 20:
frequent Kate "Literally, that you can find such clarity and peace and come so far away from what it's like to live under those lies that it's hard to see anymore how it is even possible for people to believe that stuff."
-- That's cool...and, even if it's hard for you to see how people could believe those lies, perhaps your experiences can still help you empathize...
It's so sad how true lies can seem or even partly be, to the emotions, with regard to whatever topic...It's very sad to me because I know I often allow myself to be guided by thoughts that, even if are/were true or semi-true, are lies in that I should not listen to them over God's truth and over healthy thoughts.
Whatsover is good, true, lovely, etc...think on these things...that's what we're supposed to do...
46. Tami said the following at 12:16 AM on May 21:
Hi, Heather -- I don't disagree with you. If I was married, I couldn't eat whatever I wanted regardless of health concerns, behave dismissively and rudely, and reasonably expect my husband to find me as attractive as he did on our wedding day.
My problem with is books that *make women fearful* of losing their husband to the next hot chick (or which state "men can't help it" when they constantly find themselves drawn to the appearance of women not their wives), rather than simply encouraging women to be healthy, kind, and good stewards of their looks, as a means of enhancing and maintaining their relationship to their husbands.
And yes there are books out there -- authored by Christians, and written for Christian women -- that have the basic attitude of "men can't help it, so the onus is on you to keep his attention away from other women, to keep him from stumbling." Would we tell that to college professors -- "Your students aren't studying and paying attention, so it's your responsiblity to make them disciplined and get A's"? Yes, a professor should be interesting and not a dry bore. At the same time, if a student doesn't act responsibly, is that the *instructor's* fault?
It's this placing of *everything* on the women that I find extremely burdensome.
And I think this is a rather recent phenomenon; I didn't see this attitude even in books published 10-15 years ago.
47. Hannah said the following at 2:21 AM on May 21:
#38, thanks for sharing your story.
While I am certainly not skinny though neither am I grossly overweight, I have also found that starving myself and exercising constantly has no effect on my weight -- though when I eat healthy and stay active I do feel better!! I also went through a time of being obsessed with exercise, to the point where I thought that if I skipped my 20-mile bike ride for the day I would get out of shape. After that plus being very disciplined about my eating, 3 months later, I actually weighed a couple pounds more!
I hear a lot of people on this blog scoffing at fat people as if all fat people are 100% at fault for how they look, and while certainly many "overweight" people have self-control issues, NOT ALL DO! I encourage everyone to read "Rethinking Thin" by Gina Kolata.
I have finally resigned myself to the fact that I will never be "thin" (in the European model sense) ... unless maybe if I starve myself. But that would be unreasonable. It is unreasonable to expect me to starve myself just because I don't have a naturally thin body, plus being short and having big bones and a lot of muscle to fight against for the European model look! As long as I am eating REASONABLY and being REASONABLY active then I should accept how God made me.
We expect fat people to live in constant starvation as a punishment for being fat. But no one gets after thin people for eating unhealthy! Really, if you are thin, be grateful for how God made you and also please be compassionate towards people who God made differently. They will have to constantly battle their genetics and they will still never look like you.
48. Mike said the following at 3:59 AM on May 21:
Heather (#42) -
That was an AWESOME post! You rock!
(We now return you to your regularly scheduled winging.)
:-)
49. obewan said the following at 9:10 AM on May 21:
I tend to agree that the BMI does not mean a lot. I did say that I am near the middle of the recommended range, but I will admit that I still have a small paunch belly. Of course, you can only see it when I take my shirt off, which I don't like to do.
When I was in High School I was a lightweight 145 lbs. Now I am heavier at 170, but according to the BMI, that is considered acceptable. While I don't see a need to have the killer abs, I still don't want a beer gut, hence the use of my current diet.
50. Mark W said the following at 10:06 AM on May 21:
One thought on the self-control vs. genetics/metabolism issue: Anyone who has spent much time overseas (particularly Asian countries, but really anywhere) would not doubt that Americans have serious self-control issues when it comes to food. The "larger" people that are commonplace here are next to non-existent in countries where smaller portions are a cultural norm. After spending time overseas, it's really quite the culture shock to come back to the U.S. and realize how severe the obesity problem is. I'm not trying to place blame on individuals, just something to think about.
51. Amir Larijani said the following at 10:37 AM on May 21:
Obewan: I'm the other way around. In spite of having body fat percentage in single-digits--seriously, I have to fight to keep it above 5%--my BMI has me as overweight. Muscle mass will do that to a person. LOL
Still BMI is probably good if you are evaluating a general population over time.
Trevor Dolby says: "if the man is claiming to be the leader of his family and is also seriously overweight, then it's not much good him demanding his wife become thin and svelte if she is similarly overweight"
My sentiments exactly. I've always found it amusing to see these morbidly-obese men with bumper-stickers that say, "No Fat Chicks!" It's like what are these guys smoking?
Hannah: As with Trevor, I agree. The key word is reasonable.
Heather: Absolutely. It's a stewardship issue. This is not about micromanaging one's weight to the tenth of a pound, or panicking over the gain of X number of pounds or even being "thin". It's about the lifestyle of taking care of one's self. And it's on both the ladies and the gentlemen to do this.
Men: What values are you teaching your kids if you sit on your keister and watch television all the time, and eat like a pig, letting your weight get out of control?
Women: What values are you teaching your kids if you show no regard for nutritional sensibility, refuse to exercise, and let your weight get away from you?
One of the tragic stories in the Bible revolves around Eli, an otherwise obedient priest who did not properly discipline his sons Hophni and Phineas. Even when rebuked by God through the prophet Samuel, Eli accepted the word while not taking action.
Upon hearing the news that his sons had died and the Philistines captured the Ark of the Covenant, Eli fell, broke his neck, and died. In describing his death, the Scriptures make mention of his considerable girth. A very miserable way to go...
Contrast that with Joshua, who--at age 80--was quite youthful and vigorous as he picked up the torch from Moses.
So guys: who would you like to resemble when you are older?
I'll cast my lot with Joshua, only with an assault rifle...
52. obewan said the following at 6:47 AM on May 22:
Obewan's comment (24) about the singles group ladies' eating habits might point towards this sort of situation: the eating and weight issues might well derive from some totally different cause, especially if they've had relationship issues in the past. (Trevor)
-------------------------------------
I tend to agree. I see many older divorced single people seek a lot of "comfort foods". Some divorced people will readily tell you they gained weight after their divorce. Regarding relationships, there is a constantly running undercurrent of bitterness or "battle of the sexes" syndrome in our group. The new people going through divorce recovery bring back a lot of issues for others who have already recovered and are only trying to help. Things are fine when the group is out on fun activities together or working on a missions project, but whenever the subject of "relationships" comes up, things can get a bit testy.
53. Sarah P. said the following at 8:04 AM on May 22:
It's all about balance. The best (and only!) program I ever did was Body for Life. I did it for a year when I was 18, and it has stood me in good stead ever since. I, too, will never be "skinny." I am curvy, with an equilibrium size of 10-12.
Thing is, I just did a quick search, and apparently the average American woman is a 12-14. (Of course, that means for every morbidly obese person there are around ten people smaller than average.) :D
In Body for Life, you "graze" throughout the day, eating small & balanced meals of proteins & carbs so that you get enough food. You learn techniques of filling on salads and broth-based soups while simultaneously keeping carbs for energy and protein for long-lasting energy. Food is fuel.
Exercise: You work out 6x/week, alternating intense, 20-minute cardio days and 45-minute weights days, lifting to failure.
After doing this for a year, I learned how to hit "intense" level if my body needs work. I also learned how to do a great variety of physical exercises. Mostly, in maintenance mode I try to hit each body part with weights once each week, and I have at least two fast-moving cardio days. Food-wise, I have learned how to "eyeball" what I am eating. I don't even like most processed foods; my treat is a serving of dark chocolate each day.
I am always surprised by how few women actually know how to use free weights, for example. They boost your confidence so much, after the initial learning curve! After the first few weeks, as you build muscle, your entire body processes calories quicker! Lifting heavy weights is the only way to really transform your body.
54. Mike said the following at 8:32 AM on May 22:
Heather (#42) -
You know, this is off topic somewhat, but since you brought up the subject of women blessing their men (and others around them) with good body stewardship, I'm going to open a can of worms and ask you what you would suggest men do to bless women. What makes you feel blessed?
(And this isn't just for Heather. All you other ladies, here's your chance: What would you like the men to do to bless you?)
:-)
55. Sarah P. said the following at 8:45 AM on May 22:
Mike (#55): Serve. I don't care who -- it doesn't have to be me. But it really blesses me and makes me rejoice to see men honestly giving of themselves and helping others without hope of return. And the few times (I can count them on one hand) that a man has done something small and unexpected to serve me in the last year, it almost bursts my heart. :)
You'd be surprised just how much it can mean to hold a door for someone or pick up something that is dropped -- on those days when you are bracing yourself against a cold and lonely world.
56. obewan said the following at 9:04 AM on May 22:
I don't even like most processed foods; my treat is a serving of dark chocolate each day. (Sarah P)
------------------------------------
That is a treat, but it is also good medicine. Since it is so heart healthy I have considered that for myself. I mean, that is probably better than drinking a glass on wine a day for heart health - which is something I also have considered, but as a Christian have some convictions about...
57. Tami said the following at 9:48 AM on May 22:
Mike (55): Bless me by loving and obeying God's Word. :)
Things to do for me, specifically, if I'm in a serious relationship with you: Communicate clearly. Put your relationships with other women (aside from mom and sisters) way lower on the priority list. And look out for me. These are a lot harder than "bring me flowers" or "take me to my favorite restaurant" -- but if I'm talking about *true blessings* -- wherein I feel like a guy is giving me joy and building me up in a *serious way* -- those are much more meaningful actions. And obviously not things I would expect on a first date!
I really *do* look for ways to bless and encourage the men in my life :) I like to learn more. And I definitely like to look cute and dress up! ;)
58. Cassandra said the following at 10:14 AM on May 22:
Mike #55
What would you like the men to do to bless you?
Interesting. One of my friends asked me this the other day. I thought long and hard, and the answer I came up with is: Pick one of us and marry us. I don't mean to sound flip at all, but I think that's the best way for the single men of the church to bless the single women. Then, after marrying one of us, encourage all your single buddies to do the same! :)
59. Rachael said the following at 12:55 PM on May 22:
Someone mentioned "priority list".
My selfishness may often tell myself I'm not 'prioritized' or 'the most special', based on certain 'signs'. "Poor me." Regardless of the truth.
Emotions are trickily powerful. And even IF our perceived 'worst case scenarios' WERE true, my ideal mindset would be: "How can I serve God [even though it's not how I want it to be]?". That ideal mindset doesn't inform a lot of my practices- instead my selfishness often does, but I want to learn to effectively adjust my mindset in my weak moments.
I think women can struggle with a perceived lack of priority in different ways. This perception might be common. My impression is that women can 'perceive' signals that men don't necessarily mean to send. And probably it happens vice-versa.
I think it could be helpful if we lower, erase, or ignore our expectations, which can be extremely subtle. I'm not at that point, but hopefully I'll get to a point where I at times battle my expectant hopes in the heat of the moment.
I think in life we often THINK we know what would 'help', or we desire what we think would 'help', but, those really might be temporary band-aid solutions that don't dress the heart core.
I think of what someone said recently about the death penalty...I think this man was saying something like that if ___________, then he'd want the person to receive the death penalty.
In response to his feelings, a woman said something like that he THINKS that that would help, but really his deep sorrow would still be there, it wouldn't take it away.
...Ultimately, we all deserve hell. Death is the price of sin. For those who are saved, this price has been paid by Jesus' death. And He now lives and lives in those He has saved.
We don't 'deserve' all we want, hope, or think we 'need' or what we think is 'normal' or 'good'. No. Life is a gift. We are blessed. It's so, so easy for me to want 'more' or 'different' from what I've been given.
I think if people were to think very deeply they'd discover the same thing, that often a feeling of unhappiness or disappointment is caused by what they feel should happen vs. what is happening....
There's a quote that goes something like this: "Life is 10% what happens, 90% of how you respond to it." Yes, to some extent what happens is seemingly under our control, though God is ultimately in control. But a lot of life just happens....but how do we respond?
I want to grow in my responses, gratitude, and in loosening my tight grip onto selfishness.
I'm not there yet. But I hope this comment will spur on some reflection about these topics.
My ultimate hope should be set on Christ alone. Realistically, Christ isn't the only thing 'on the throne'. Other things crowd their way up there too.
But our life purpose should be found in Christ. These verses really popped out at my recently. I love Paul's selflessness here and life purpose:
Acts 20:22-24 (ESV):
“And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.”
Notice that he writes: "I DO NOT ACCOUNT MY LIFE OF ANY VALUE NOR AS PRECIOUS TO MYSELF"...but his life purpose is to finish his course and ministry "to testify to the gospel of the grace of God."
I love that.
60. Tami said the following at 1:32 PM on May 22:
Rachael -- Don't you think that a man, who is in a serious or marital relationship with a woman, should make his relationship with her a priority over other female acquaintances? (And of course the opposite is true -- women should make their husbands first of all men not Jesus in their hearts.)
I have been in a situation where the guy would do anything for his girl friends, yet expected me, as his "girlfriend," to keep giving and giving and giving to him while giving me back very little, and putting in very little effort, in return.
I do not do things to get things back in return. And I was very happy to give, because I cared about him! However, after it became clear that he would put more time and effort in his relationships to other women -- and did so without letting me in on this until later -- it became distressing. And ultimately it became why we broke up.
In a serious relationship, there *should* be *some* sense of giving and priority. A wife or fiancee shouldn't be treated with less respect than a female friend.
This is not "all about poor me" or what I "deserve." It's about a signal that the man will love me as Christ loves the church.
61. Tami said the following at 1:33 PM on May 22:
Clarification about paragraph 1 -- worded weird! Jesus should be first in a woman's heart. Then her husband.
Sorry :P
62. Sarah P. said the following at 1:51 PM on May 22:
Rachael (#60): Isn't it awesome that we are still so young and have, God willing, many more years to grow up in this knowledge?
I long and pray to see more clearly, with God's sight. To see light shining through all things. To discern the truth from a lie.
63. Heather Koerner said the following at 2:06 PM on May 22:
Mike (#55):
Two of the books that have helped me most in this "blessing your spouse" area are His Needs, Her Needs. by Willard Harley and Love and Respect by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs.
Although both are based on the general needs of women vs. men (and there are going to be individual differences in all of us), I still found the suggestions to be pretty on target and accurate.
Here is Harley list of "the woman's five most basic needs in marriage tend to be":
Eggerichs lists these ways to show love to your spouse (you'll see some similarities):
Good stuff! Lots more specifics in the books. Then, from personal experience, I'd add: 1)Take spiritual leadership seriously and 2)Make plans to allow your wife to stay-st-home when the children are young.
Whew! Are you overwhelmed? Don't be! It's a learning process over our whole lives!
64. BDB said the following at 2:49 PM on May 22:
Tami (#61) wrote:
>>I have been in a situation where the guy would do anything for his girl friends, yet expected me, as his "girlfriend," to keep giving and giving and giving to him while giving me back very little, and putting in very little effort, in return. <<
This does work both ways. I think it's at the heart of what Elisabeth Elliot is saying when she discourages women from taking initiative. If a man doesn't begin by placing a specific woman as a higher priority, he probably won't get to the point of commitment required for marriage, either.
I know some women for whom their boyfriends are their "hobby."
At the same time, there are women who give all their priority to their families and friends, and only have scraps left over for a "relationship," if any.
It's a big cause of divorce, too. Cops, pastors, executives - all have high divorce rates in part because they give so much of their time to others that they forget they must keep something available for home.
65. Tami said the following at 4:01 PM on May 22:
Thanks, BDB -- that's what I basically was sayihg.
It works for both men *and* women, but since Mike asked the women what would bless them, and I was answering as a woman, I answered from the women's perspective ;)
My ideal relationship would be of mutual service to one another, and of joined service in ministry.
66. Rachael said the following at 4:21 PM on May 22:
Tami,
"Don't you think that a man, who is in a serious or marital relationship with a woman, should make his relationship with her a priority over other female acquaintances?"
Absolutely.
"I have been in a situation where the guy would do anything for his girl friends, yet expected me, as his "girlfriend," to keep giving and giving and giving to him while giving me back very little, and putting in very little effort, in return. "
That would hurt me alot.
"In a serious relationship, there *should* be *some* sense of giving and priority."
Yes.
For me, the issue of priority and wanting to be 'the best of the best' is a real and deep struggle. I caught a glimpse into what you had said, which might be a 'normal' struggle for you, but for me it is exaggerated. For people like me who might be on the slippery slopes who may interpret things as a lack of priority or 'bestness', I think we need to watch out for our own attitudes and expectations. Maybe this doesn't apply to you at all.
When you're dating, you can make your choices. Once marriage hits, however, and if the feeling for wanting to be prioritized or the best of the best persists, and if it is unhealthy, and if you sin as a result in thought or word, then it would be awesome if my comment could cause some girl to work on her heart to rid herself of those expectations or at least raise an awareness that they exist. Maybe that doesn't apply to you at all. I just caught a glimpse of your comment that resonnated with me in an exaggerated way.
Sarah, P., YES. And also I think that if God brings people in our life who can benefit from what we say, in the midst of our struggles or after we get through them (God-willingly), then that is AWESOME. Like just a couple months ago or so I had a deep conversation with a friend. It was my first time meeting with her one-on-one in a really long time. But she had remembered something I wrote in an e-mail to her and someone else, something that revealed a struggle of mine. And she identified with it. I then gave her a passage of Scripture that I think I'd written out that day or the night before, that was related to that topic. Did it help her at all? I don't know. But it was a special time of bonding with a sister in Christ.
67. Rachael said the following at 4:37 PM on May 22:
And one more comment, too...we have our ideals, and 'shoulds'...but if things don't quite happen according to those, no matter how 'good' or 'normal' those things seem...
It would be nice if we could have something like this sticky-noted to the back of our brains:
*Do we really *need* this ideal? (Probably not.)
*Christ is sufficient.
*How can I serve God through this?
*If it's someone else's sin? Think of the recent Boundless post about what the kid said - "God can take care of him"
68. Mike said the following at 5:40 PM on May 22:
Heather (#64) -
I have a copy of Love and Respect; haven't seen His Needs, Her Needs, but I'll try to find time to squeeze it in.
And, no, it's not overwhelming. (Well, maybe a little.) It's just a bit alien to the male mind; we're not wired that way naturally.
:-)
Thanks!
Oh, and all the other ladies - keep your suggestions coming, too. They're all helpful.
God bless.
69. Tami said the following at 5:42 PM on May 22:
Rachael, I hope others *are* blessed by what you're wrestling with and stating here, but I am still not sure it exactly applies to my own struggling, or what I know I need to seek in a relationship.
I really *do* want to serve. And I also don't think that all ideals are necessarily bad, or to be discarded. Some help protect us from unnecessary hardship and suffering.
In this particular case, the ideal I'm referring to is Eph. 5:22-33... so... I think I have *some* founding in hoping for it... especially if the man claims he's living for Christ. I'm not hoping for anything I'm not striving to give myself, or that I haven't been taught is an important ingredient in a marriage.
Sure I shouldn't approach marriage -- or life -- with a pile of "shoulds." That's not fair to anyone, especially if they're kept secret and the person doesn't even *know* they're being evaluated by those "shoulds".
But *shouldn't* I seek a man with a Christ-like heart? (As I desire to have?)
And *should* I choose to *marry* someone who wants me to take him seriously and serve him but isn't all that much of a servant himself, or who's placing himself in a path of sin? The answer isn't always to *serve* more (at least in the "giving to serve" sense), if that feeds into someone's selfishness and self centeredness.
After all, the question was, what would *bless* me... :|
Unless I took the long view of being a Hosea to someone's Gomer (and suffering to be blessed, in the face of someone racing off to follow their own desires -- and unfortunately I've seen that happen), it seems like I would *hope* that in a marital relationship, we would prioritize each other, and that I wouldn't deliberately put myself in a one-way relationship where the guy's attention was diverted to other non-familial relationships with women. Like what BDB wrote -- marriage, and life, are hard enough without built-in extramarital friendships that drain the energy that could be devoted to the marriage.
Like Hosea, I suppose the Lord could give me a really challenging marriage. And I know He would bless me in it. But is that what I would deliberately *choose* or hope for?
70. BDB said the following at 9:53 PM on May 22:
While I wasn't expecting a discussion of prioritization in an appearance-related topic, there is a potental connection.
Perhaps some of us have observed people who are clearly less physcally attractive, yet they ended up successfully married younger. The natural question, "Why them not me?"
Facebook provides an interesting window. There's one such person I know whose facebook status updates are a constant stream of compliments and expressions of love for spouse and family. Seems a bit over the top.
Then again, perhaps that's "Why."
It's definitely a contrast with some single people I know who never, ever seem to compliment anyone publicly.
71. Rachael said the following at 2:13 PM on May 23:
"What makes you feel blessed?"
When my husband massages my feet with lotion - very nice and also it may be improving my feet! Love it. It's a wonderful act of service I've received several times.
Also, I like being 'in touch' when we're at church or sitting down when with a group of people.
And asking if I'm okay if he hears some kind of potential sound that may indicate some kind of 'oops' situation in the kitchen or something.
And mixing up a coffee drink for me if we're at a group dinner or something.
And it's nice that he drives. We often are in the car for long periods of time.
Etc.
72. Rachael said the following at 2:39 PM on May 23:
Hey Tami,
That's great you like to serve! And blessings to you as you navigate through the course God has given you ~
Rachael