Segregated Singles: Episode 68
by Ashley Ramsey on 05/07/2009 at 3:25 PM
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This week's featured artist is Gabriel. You'll be hearing tracks from his solo debut album "I Need You." Check out his site to learn more about his music.
Spring is In the Air -- 00:00
Is it just me or does Spring stir up just as much romance as it does pollen? (It seems that all I do these days is complain about my allergies and gush about my fiance. I bet both drive my co-workers crazy.) I'm sure you've noticed in your singles group or on your college campus that relationships seem to surface this time of year. Lisa asks Steve, Suzanne, and I what the deal is with Spring love.
Summer Blockbusters -- 20:49
Welcome Back Bob! It's been a while since Bob joined us in the studio, but he's back this week to give us the scoop on summer blockbusters. You'll get the rundown on summer hits from Earth to X-Men Origins.
Segregated Singles -- 32:45
She feels like her church segregates the singles. I know other Boundless readers have voiced similar woes. If you can relate and want to know what to do about it, listen to Steve and Lisa's creative ideas to bring different church demographics together.
1. DannieA said the following at 3:41 PM on May 7:
i'll tell you what the deal is with spring romance.....it's SPRING...that means the start of outdoor activities...that means you can actually go outside and walk together holding hands not dampened by snow or rain and breathe the fresh air....
I think that's all that's too it. Everything is "new" again!
2. obewan said the following at 8:23 AM on May 8:
Are singles "segregated" because the church "seperates" them, or because they "hang together" by their own choice?
Our church has small groups of every type imaginable. There are groups for mixing singles and young families, mixed age groups, men or women only, college, singles, and even divorce recovery. There are also topical Sunday school classes that combine all types of people together. Several people in our singles group have left our Sunday school class to attend the mixed classes.
I think it is a matter of personal choice, but most singles who want to get married focus on the singles group hoping to meet a Christian spouse at church.
That is just the nature of the beast.
3. CarmenN said the following at 9:11 AM on May 8:
Personally, I'm not bothered by the division of singles into different groups. I've been single my whole life and just turned 30. In my 20's, I enjoyed fellowshipping with my singles group (ages 18-35) because I shared most in common with them.
On occasion, people--usually men and divorcees--from the older singles group (ages 36-45) would attend our group just to hit on the younger girls, which the minister had to put a stop to. I'm not saying all older singles want to associate with younger singles just to pick up chicks, but that seems to happen frequently when you mingle the ages.
Now that I'm 30, I don't have as much in common with the college students or the 22 year olds fresh out of college. When I've tried mingling with them, I get the distinct impression that I'm considered "old" and not of their generation. Also, I have different interests and priorities than when I was their age. So, now I prefer to associate with the late 20's/early 30's segment of singles.
I think it's natural to want to fellowship with like-minded peers. It's not cliquish or segregation; we just tend to gravitate towards others who share our interests and can relate to us. That doesn't mean we deliberately exclude people, but that within the church we facilitate groups (usually by age or life stage) to meet that inborn need.
4. CathyV said the following at 9:31 AM on May 8:
One of my favorite groups at my church was one I was involved in for several years. It was a life group. A life group at our church is basically a Bible Study/Fellowship group. The one I went to had a number of single women and a bunch of families.
Now I go to a new life group where the same 3 single women ended up but now 2 of us are married and 1 is seriously dating. It's kind of neat how God worked it out for us.
5. H.A.P. said the following at 12:14 PM on May 8:
When are we going to hear from Susie Shellenberger? I've admired her for years and never heard her speak about being single.
6. obewan said the following at 12:51 PM on May 8:
On occasion, people--usually men and divorcees--from the older singles group (ages 36-45) would attend our group just to hit on the younger girls, which the minister had to put a stop to. (CarmenN)
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I have seen that in the past too, but my experience has been that it is more related to groups that emphasize dating or marriage hook-ups. I have seen young guys "hit on" single women and scare them away too - in particular when I lived near a Navy base.
As for older single men, I will agree with you in that men who have enjoyed the benefits of marriage and are now divorced are anxious to get going again. And they don't just hit on younger women. They hit on their own age groups too; although, in my current 30+ singles group, we have had occasional trouble with 50 and 60 year old men "hitting on" women in their 40's. LOL At some point though, the age difference becomes less important to the women – especially if they are divorced too.
I will say that not separating by ages sometimes works though. A second multi-church singles group I attend has ages from 20's to 60's. It is mostly 30's and 40's. The emphasis is on Bible study, fellowship, and mission’s projects like helping the homeless. It is not a dating or "hook-up" culture, so there are no problems with women being "hit-on". I will admit though that I enjoy the prospect of meeting a never married women in her mid-30's over a divorcee in her 40's, but I will emphasize that that is not my motive for attending. I am also friends with several of the younger guys and enjoy sharing our common interests of hiking, biking, camping, and fishing.
7. Jim H said the following at 1:27 PM on May 8:
I guess I don't understand why being "hit on" is such a big no-no. Isn't the best place to meet quality Christian singles in a Christian singles group? If the answer to that question is "yes", then how else are you supposed express interest in someone without sending some kind of signal?
Now there are three big qualifiers.
1) Meeting someone should not be the ONLY reason you're attending a Christian singles group - the primary purposes should be discipleship and mutual encouragement.
2) I can understand that big age differences make some people feel uncomfortable and even creeped out.
3) When someone does not respond to your interest, you should not continue your advances.
But if we are brutally honest with ourselves, I think most everyone would like to be "hit on" by the right person. The "outrage" usually occurs when the ugly, socially awkward, or financially challenged person makes the advance. When this happens, the appropriate course of action is to politely decline and treat the person with the dignity of another child of Christ who is deeply loved by Him - not run crying to your pastor with indignant disdain (unless the unwelcome advances continue).
8. Tami said the following at 1:53 PM on May 8:
Jim H -- to me, being "hit on" implies being approached in a way that goes beyond showing interest and veers into superficial or unsavory territory.
If a guy is simply approaching women and showing sincere interest, to see if there's something there -- nothing wrong with that. But if dudes are just wandering from woman to woman in search of attention or sex, or if they're approaching women indiscriminately (i.e., just because she's a woman and not because he is attracted to her in particular) -- that is the uncomfortable "hitting on" that I think has no place in a Christian group.
9. BDB said the following at 2:10 PM on May 8:
While I will agree that older divorced men are often good at "taking initiative," it's also true that divorced men in their early 20's like to prowl around the young adults ministry. And frankly, divorced women are also pretty good at taking the initiative and hitting on people.
Philosophically, I think singles groups reinforce bad habits. There's been a few times when I've come into contact with divorced women in a church setting are speaking disrespectfully of their exes to anyone who will listen. And those of us who didn't ask and are stuck in the same carpool. This is behavior you never see from people in healthy marriages.
In a mixed Bible study, if a divorced woman starts complaining like that in a group, the married women are likely to take her aside and tell her to knock it off - ask for prayer if necessary, take her deepest complaints to God in prayer, but stop speaking negatively in public about the father of her children.
10. obewan said the following at 2:28 PM on May 8:
#9 BDB. I agree. Good summary of my experiences too.
11. BDB said the following at 2:46 PM on May 8:
I'm trying to think of a way to write this next part without it sounding bad. But I think it's important, so here goes.
While I don't actively seek out the company of single women in their early 20's, more and more I find them around me in volunteer settings - such as when the outreach ministry holds a fundraiser. I also notice there are far fewer men in their early 20's. This is probably why they're talking to me.
This is troubling. I know these guys are around somewhere - especially because I see pictures on facebook with mutual friends. But those are in social settings - in ministry settings there is an imbalance.
Of course, I've also known plenty of women who were very interested in being social and not too interested in things of God. Went to college with hundreds of them. Eventually, it always became a point of conflict. I was interested in God's plan for my life; they just wanted to have a good time.
But I never stopped talking to people about what their destiny is. Most people don't have one. A surprising percentage of those who call themselves Christians have adopted the work hard/play hard mantra that comes from the world rather than scripture.
So, at this time I don't see any value in attending a singles ministry that is solely focused on entertaining social events. The people whose hearts are closer to mine are doing outreach.
12. Jim H said the following at 3:00 PM on May 8:
Tami #8
I guess the term "hit on" means different things to different people and it is therefore probably better to be more precise in terminology. What you described sounds more like predatory "player" behavior to me and I agree that is inappropriate.
But what I have observed most is indignation not over "player" behavior but in being respectfully approached by someone they considered undesireable. I don't doubt that "player" behavior occurs in Christian circles, but I have seen more complaints over people labeled as "losers" than "players."
I am thankful that God does not judge those Christian "losers" by the same worldy standards that many Christian women judge them. And this hits close to home - my sisters have done this - a lot.
13. Regular Poster Who Shall Remain Nameless said the following at 3:19 PM on May 8:
BDB, what you wrote doesn't sound bad at all.
Going anonymous to tell on myself here... a while back I went to A Big Local Church's young adults service. Partially because I wanted to see what was going on there -- and ALSO because I knew one of the staff members was attractive and -- going by what little I knew through some distant acquaintences -- he seemed like a deep, thinky kind of guy, and unattached. So I was hoping he was speaking that night, so I could get a sense of him from afar; alas he was not. But what I did hear was so superficial and stuck in psychology-talk, I was sufficiently turned off of the group itself. Plus, the group vibe reminded me of the high school youth group I went to and disliked so so much. So even if I had met him and liked him, I wouldn't probably want to stick around the group he helps lead!
NB: I never met him (I'm not the type to go wandering up to unmarried guys in unfamiliar situations! Especially leader-types!), so I really have no idea what he's like. And therefore this is not a judgment on the guy at all, just a statement of why I didn't return! But it does relate to BDB's point, in that if I met him in some other situation, like community service or a lecture, we would likely have a different conversation than we would in, say, a youth-group-y young adults service.
14. BDB said the following at 4:13 PM on May 8:
I do think there is a verse relevant to the older guy hitting on younger woman situation: Ruth 3:10
Then he said, “Blessed are you of the LORD, my daughter! For you have shown more kindness at the end than at the beginning, in that you did not go after young men, whether poor or rich.
This verse makes it clear to me that while Boaz was showing kindness, he was holding back due to the age difference. I mean - he accepted her proposal by calling her "my daughter." Huh. I can't think of anywhere else in scripture where a guy refers to his future wife that way. In any case, once she made it explicit that she was OK with the age difference, he moved forward more deliberately.
15. a sassy sister said the following at 6:15 PM on May 8:
This podcast really hit home for me, especially the inbox question regarding this issue. Our church is starting up again our young adult ministry; however, our focus is not the meat market mentality. Rather, it is focused on evangelism, outreach, discipleship, and missions, and fostering intergenerational community.
While we are very small in number, I am thankful for the transparent, real, community I am receiving in this group.
I think the way to get the leadership involved and connected with the young adult ministry is to walk your talk. If you say you're about growing in God and with others, then make the effort to genuinely get to know them as people. One of the hardest habits to break to foster genuine community is to drop the convenience habit of putting on masks and projecting perceptions on groups. Just as it is counterproductive to stereotype young adults and/or singles as selfish, irresponsible pew warmers, it is also counterproductive to stereotype married couples and older people as stodgy, blindly traditional people who want singles to live a carbon copy of their lives. Besides, such stereotyping and labeling perceptions do nothing but allow you to stay in a complaining bubble but never get up and do something.
I would recommend stepping up in ministry involvement and learning about people there, using your gifts, passions and talents to meet that need. I would also recommend that you lay your heart and mind before God to expose any thinking or attitudes that are in play.
16. Mike said the following at 11:57 AM on May 12:
This is a little weird. First, Boundless repeatedly encourages people who are single to look specifically within their circle at church for eligible singles. And, they specifically endorse the men being the ones who initiate. Then, people get all creeped out when it actually happens? Are we sending mixed messages, or is it just me?
17. Cassandra said the following at 1:44 PM on May 12:
This is a little weird. First, Boundless repeatedly encourages people who are single to look specifically within their circle at church for eligible singles. And, they specifically endorse the men being the ones who initiate. Then, people get all creeped out when it actually happens? Are we sending mixed messages, or is it just me?
Well the difference is that the creeped out messages aren't coming from Boundless but from Boundless commenters, but I see your point.
I think there has been an overreaction to the "meet market" thing. Women can politely turn down guys they aren't interested in, church discipline can be brought to bear if people turn into stalkers, and dating, courtship and marriage can still be encouraged from the pulpit and within singles groups.