Not Telling Dad
by Ted Slater on 05/04/2009 at 12:19 PM
The dilemma in today's featured Boundless article, "Not Telling Dad," is an awkward one. Essentially, the question is, "Does my 31-year-old boyfriend have to answer all my father's questions?" Specifically questions about whether the boyfriend, who has "lived a pretty wild life," has any sexually transmitted infections.
I can see different sides to the situation. On one hand, why is the father being so intrusive, not trusting his 27-year-old daughter to make wise decisions about her boyfriend? On the other hand, why is the boyfriend afraid to be transparent? Is he hiding something that he's ashamed of, something secretive that a father would sense and an in-love girlfriend might not?
She could just dismiss her father's questions, saying it's none of his business anymore. But doing so would damage her relationship with her father, and simply put off a conversation that must eventually take place.
So what advice does Boundless Answers columnist John Thomas give? Hm.
1. obewan said the following at 12:39 PM on May 4:
Dad should just be thankful that she intends to marry a Christian. He could also learn to show a little more grace. It sounds like he still resents the boyfriend's prior sins and that is the overbearing problem.
I have always heard that the marriage laws mandate testing for STD's, so I don't see where that is any concern of the Fathers if they are currently living pure lives.
2. Tami said the following at 12:45 PM on May 4:
I think sometimes we forget the distinction between "privacy" and "having something to hide."
One person might simply view this as a private matter (as I would); being protective, the father probably views this as "if he's not answering me, he *must* be hiding something."
Also -- didn't the letter say the guy was willing to show the results to his girlfriend, but not the father? In that case, it sound like he *isn't* hiding anything from *her*, but just feels weird about the dad being in his super-personal business. And frankly, if I was a 30+ year old man, I would feel the same way.
3. Andrea-Elena said the following at 1:13 PM on May 4:
Um... at 27, she should be able to discern some things for herself. Dad's input is great, but a person's sexual past is not necessarily something he/she wants to go into great detail with his/her potential father-in-law. (And if we counsel people to not unload all the details of their sexual history upon the person they are dating, then certainly the filter upon what to share with one's future in-laws should be "tighter.")
What is the young man's motive: to cover up? or to protect/defend his own boundaries as a human? Is that what the father is concerned about?
I agree wholeheartedly with John Thomas's assessment and counsel. I hope this young lady heeds it. Sounds as if she has a good relationship with her parents. It just needs some maturing in a slightly different direction. And... she does need to be cautious about the young man she's considering as her future husband. The father is wise to be concerned and to lend his perspective. What he should not be doing is deciding for his daughter.
One thing the young lady can be thankful for is a father who cares enough about his daughter to take more than a mere cursory interest in her life. Especially as he is trying to be a dedicated Christ follower. Not all young adults have that blessing to be grateful for.
The father is right to urge the tests be taken, but he should leave the results for his daughter to see. All he needs to know is that the tests were taken. He needs to trust his daughter to make the right decision once she has all the information needed.
4. Tami said the following at 1:23 PM on May 4:
I also have a feeling that Dad, being protective, is throwing up barrier after barrier, hurdle after hurdle because this young man is not like the type of man he envisioned his daughter being with. Which is not to cast aspersions on the guy at *all* -- but I surmise Dad pictured her marrying someone with a more similar upbringing.
5. Kate said the following at 1:24 PM on May 4:
I don't see how the boyfried is afraid to be transparent. According to the letter, he's honestly shared his sexual past with the young woman and has offered to be tested and give the test results to her. The woman is at an age and maturity level where she should be able to process that information and use it to make a decision with prayer and drawing on her parents' previously-imparted wisdom, without her father's micromanagement.
"Some of the questions were very personal and specific sexual questions." This wording in the letter implies that the boyfriend has also disclosed to the woman's father that his past includes sexual sin, but the father is demanding to know details such as exactly what he did, at what age, how many times and with how many partners. This to me seems completely inappropriate and bizarre. The fact that the father at this time completely shut down all communication with the young man is another big red flag that the father may not be acting reasonably.
6. Jacob M. said the following at 1:28 PM on May 4:
I was pleasantly surprised by the advice John Thomas gave. I think that wanting to know whether the guy has repented of any past sexual sin can be a legitimate matter of determining his character, but wanting to know his medical test results is not appropriate. If he does have an STD, he should disclose that to the girl, and she can decide what she wants to do. If at that point she wants her father's advice on the matter, she can ask for it.
7. P&P said the following at 1:43 PM on May 4:
Hmmmm.
I can see the father's point. Up to a point.
I'm assuming that the letter was edited for clarity, however it does sound as though the young woman does not have a great deal of life experience. She was home schooled, didn't attend college and has focused on helping her immediate family.
It sounds as though the guy however, did a whole lotta living back in the day. I would be concerned that the young woman might be getting in over her head regardless of how "G-dly" the man might be now.
Back when I worked at a religious publication, I worked with a number of women who were raised, and continued to live, in sheltered enviornments. I saw several of these women get in over their heads in relationships because they were simply too innocent to understand the situation.
My boss, a devout believer with a past herself, and I spoke with these women to help them understand the situation as a whole. We understood that these young women were easy prey and at least tried to open their eyes a bit before getting in too deep with these men. If they had been out in the world a bit more, I
If the woman is as sheltered as she appears to be, I'd want to investigate the man further as well. The intimate details are not appropriate, however I do understand the father's perspective.
Sheesh, I never thought I'd say such a thing. Go figure.
Before y'all think that I've registered as a Republican, please be aware that I think this is a special circumstance because the woman has been so sheltered. If she had gone to college (religious or secular), served in the military or even worked at a large company with a diverse group, I would have said go forward with or without your father's blessing.
I also think that this story is an argument for encouraging young women to strike out on their own in the world. Knowledge provides both power and safety.
8. Liz said the following at 1:48 PM on May 4:
I also completely agree with John Thomas's answer to the letter-writer. To me, a few things really stood out to me about this letter. First, I agree with Tami in that there is a big difference between keeping some information private and "hiding something." These are not 16-year-olds, and I believe that a 31-year-old adult is perfectly within his rights to keep some personal information between himself and his future wife.
I also noticed that the letter-writer offered to share the test results with her father, but that wasn't "good enough" for him--he needed to see them himself. This is a 27-year-old woman who has lived at home for her entire life, serving her family with (according to her letter) cheerful goodwill. Nothing in her letter suggests any reason her father would have not to trust her, yet he still apparently does not. I obviously don't know these people, but on the surface, it looks like her father isn't really "protecting" her so much as he is infantilizing her.
9. Brooke said the following at 2:00 PM on May 4:
as someone all for courtship and transparency, there is a line. if they had progressed to the engagement period, these would be questions that this gentleman should by all means answer to HER, and she could choose to divulge those to her dad (this is not hiding - this is privacy and also sexual history should be between a husband and wife, not father and potential son in law. that is over the line). but it sounds like a controlling, fundamentalist father with an iron fist on his firstborn daughter. she needs to be careful because if she doesn't approach this right, she could ruin a wonderful thing with a wonderful man and continue an unhealthily controlling relationship with her father that has the potential to scare away all future potential suitors. she is 27 and if she feels called to marriage, then she needs to be cautious in not allowing a fearful father to rob her of that. there is a difference between approaching relationships with caution and making relationship decisions based on fear. RISK is always involved. we cannot insulate ourselves 100% from mistakes or pain, unless we want to be alone forever.
i do believe there is a boundary issue there that she will have to deal it sooner or later and I sincerely hope she chooses to deal with it now.
10. Louise from Chicago said the following at 2:04 PM on May 4:
My opinion is that the father is overly controlling.
11. Jade said the following at 2:08 PM on May 4:
My first thought was, "27 and always having lived at home?!?!" Last I checked, staying at home and "serving" ones younger brothers and sisters (who one must assume at lease some of those siblings are also in their 20s and perfectly capable of caring for themselves) is not a biblical calling. Women are called to be wives and mothers, not caretakers/enablers of younger siblings. This woman should consult with respected, neutral Christians in her life, then continue to pursue this gentleman if God so prompts her to do so. Honestly, I think her father delving into her boyfriend's sexual history is a bit creepy. My father adores me and has prayed for me and my husband since the day I was born, but he would never dream of asking such questions. Did he ask difficult questions as to my husband's walk with God and preparedness to be a husband and father? Yes. Sexual history, no.
12. Alison said the following at 2:15 PM on May 4:
After everything this young lady has down for her family, I would think that her parents would be happy that she has met a Godly Man who wants to pursue marriage. These constraints make me think that the Father is really not interested in his daughter getting married, but would rather have her live at home forever. It maybe the best thing for this young lady to marry and move away from home. Some separation from her controlling father could be a very healthy thing!!
13. Keith said the following at 2:39 PM on May 4:
I remember watching a documentary about Michelle Obama, and about how her family checked out Barrack to make sure he was the right match. Their test: Michelle's Obama took Barrack out on to the basketball court to see how he would react in a challenging situation. Seeing how he played basketball allowed her brother to see into his character and decide he was the right person for his sister.
Asking questions, especially about one's past, isn't a good way to find out what type of person one is.
Let me tell you the best way to find out what kind of person your potential son in law is: Take him out on a three or four day camping trip. Sleep together, eat together, spend three or four days together in a challenging and unusual environment (ie. out in the woods) and see how he reacts. How does he handle problems? How does he communicate? Is he calm, even under unusual circumstances?
I remember my high school camping trips. I learned more about the character of my classmates in a three days of camping with them than I learned in the previous three years of being at school with them.
That is the best way to learn about how a potential son in law really is...
14. Merly said the following at 2:46 PM on May 4:
Reading such Godly advice is a constant reminder of why I'm so thankful for Boundless. From the letter, I sense this young woman is torn between honoring her parents and making what she believes to be a godly choice for a future husband.
I really like John's advice about PRAYERFULLY standing up to her parents about this choice, and not in a defiant way. The solution might be in the way she approaches her parents, as with the story of King David and Abigail. I also agree wholeheartedly that she should "step up the prayers" if this is truly what she believes is God's will for her future.
I know we've all heard the "let not man separate what God has joined together..." verse mentioned at weddings, but might this also encourage us to pray boldly for those things that war against holy, God-honoring unions even before we get to the altar?
Just a thought...
15. J.T. said the following at 2:56 PM on May 4:
I have a bit of advice for the 31 year old suitor. Her father will not relinquish control of his daughter the day you say I do. Most likely, he will insist on "helping" (see controlling or manipulating) your marriage every step of the way. (In fact, if you were to list the top 10 drawbacks and sinful snares of courtship, this would be in the top 2. Idolatry is the other one.) My advice is that if her father doesn't lighten up, get out. You don't want that for in-laws.
16. BDB said the following at 3:23 PM on May 4:
Hmmm...conflicting thoughts.
Putting on my auditor hat, whenever someone gets defensive and refuses to answer questins, that's a red flag. It usually means there's a problem buried underneath.
I know several women who were divorced after short marriages that their parents were against. I definitely encourage people to pause if their parents are against a match. Feelings are no match for something they see.
Men who are abusive also tend to isolate women from their families. They are often not abusive at all before marriage. But they may manipulate conflicts with the parents as an excuse to keep her away from her family and counsel.
At the same time, one of the top causes of divorce are inlaws who refuse to observe boundaries of the newly married couple. What concerns me in this situation is that dad cut off communication with the suitor. That was a really immature thing to do.
The reasonable thing to do is proceed with all the other questions, and note the ones he refused to answer. If refusal to answer is a deal-breaker for dad, he need not share that at the meeting. Just tell the guy he needs to consider the matter in prayer and will get back to him later.
After prayer, dad should meet with his daughter, and if he believes it is a bad match, say he can't give his consent because he refused to answer these questions. Explain why he feels that is a deal breaker. Even say, "Without honest answers to these questions, I don't see evidence that he's dealt with his past sin, and that portends future problems for you."
And then give her the questions.
She can ask. If he has truly repented, they will be able to have a frank conversation about those issues. If not, he'll probably become defensive or lose his temper.
The other thing that came to mind is that maybe dad is so adamant about this because the 27-year-old daughter was conceived before dad and mom got married. He might be a little sensitive that his daughter is following in his footsteps. I do know some older men who are protective of their daughters because they themselves were not observing Christian boundaries when they were in their 20's.
17. Charity said the following at 3:28 PM on May 4:
# 7 What does any of this have to do with being a Republican?
18. Kate said the following at 3:31 PM on May 4:
This article shows exactly how this keeping daughters at home movement is hurting females. Parents want to homeschool their daughters and then not allow them to enter college or seek employment. Then these women may make stupid decisions about men. It sounds like these movements are not about helping daughters but more for making for power hungry patriarchs.
19. Rachael Starke said the following at 3:36 PM on May 4:
As a mother of three young daughters, and as someone who married later in life, as did my husband, I have lived and live now on both sides of this issue. I would argue that it's important for all parties - both the woman, the man, the woman's dad, and (hello!) the man's pastor to look at this situation through the lens of the gospel.
It is not unreasonable for parents to be concerned about how the unintended consequences of a husband's former life might affect their daughter in marriage!!! Marriage is by definition the union of two lives, soul AND body, AND bank accounts, for that matter. Whether it's gambling debts that have destroyed his credit, sexual promiscuity that has led to children or an STD... those will have an impact on a marriage! But if we look at this through the lens of the gospel, then we can conclude:
1. If this man is truly a follower of Jesus, then he is covered by Christ's righteousness. He is a new creature.
2. If#1 is true, and he does have an STD, then hopefully before he ever decides to puruse a woman for marriage he has gotten counsel from his pastor or older men in his life about whether to pursue someone at all, or how to do it. It would be defrauding to a woman to have anything in your past that would have a direct impact on your future wife's health or provision and not talk about it at some point.
3. On the parents' end, if this is the first time the topic of how to work through the issues related to being pursued by an older adult (Christian or not, as you get older, the potential for "baggage" just gets higher), then they are about 10 years behind schedule. And if this issue isn't being discussed with the gospel front and center (namely, if a person is in Christ, they are a new creature, and if they demonstrate that newness by the way they dealt witih their past and discuss it today), then hopefully the man's pastor and the dad would be able to work through that.
For the record, if this was my daughter, would my prayer be that she not marry a man with a potentially transmissible, possibly lethal disease contracted through sexual immorality before his conversion? Um, YES. But I don't pray that way.
I pray that my daughter would grow to be a woman who loves Jesus first herself, that we would be wise parents in talking about all the complexities and stewardship issues of courtship long before she's raedy to begin, and that God would send her a godly man who loves Jesus today, and who demonstrates that love for Him by the way he carries himself with our daughter, with us, and with his church community. And that God in His goodness and love and sovereignty would help all of us trust in Him and not give way to sinful fear, desire for control or emotionalism. Because until the day our daughter walks down the aisle, she is our most precious earthly stewardship. And when she walks back up the aisle with her husband, that stewardship passes to him. Neither of us better mess this up!
20. Matt from DC said the following at 4:12 PM on May 4:
JT #15,
Hard, but probably wise advice.
On the other hand there is the off chance that the suitor could break through in his relationship with the father someday. People change, especially born again Christian who submit to the Word of God. If she goes ahead and accepts his courting and the father doesn't turn around in his attitude toward the relationship I think it puts an opportunity in the suitor's lap to confront her father. That might be the situation that changes her father. That might be the moment he decides that the relationship isn't worth it.
21. Rachael said the following at 4:25 PM on May 4:
"your dad thinks this guy would in some manner be destructive to you, then he just needs to tell you why he thinks so. [...]"
--Maybe there are other reasons beyond the personal question bit, and this might be worth discussion.
Advice was also given to seek the counsel of an objective person. This is good advice too. Maybe a pastor or someone who knows the person well?
May God be with you in your decision...
22. Tami said the following at 4:33 PM on May 4:
But BDB, consider this: he isn't necessarily refusing to *answer*. He is just weighing who he is in fact responsible to answer *to*.
It sounds like this man considers that he's responsible to the woman (he will tell *her* the results, so kudos to him), but that, as a 31 year old, he is not responsible to tell a man who may or may not become his father in law about his medical history.
23. anonymous this time said the following at 4:42 PM on May 4:
the question posed is very similar to one I have wanted to write Boundless about for a month now. thank you for the answer and the advice. if the writer is reading this, know that you're not alone, that this sort of issue is becoming more and more common and many of us are having to take the advice given by John. may God give us His wisdom and insight and restore relationships in His time.
24. Leah said the following at 5:49 PM on May 4:
"On the other hand, why is the boyfriend afraid to be transparent? Is he hiding something that he's ashamed of, something secretive that a father would sense and an in-love girlfriend might not?"
I have to wonder how closely you read the article. Boyfriend is not afraid to be transparent - he is quite happy to be tested and show the girl the results. He just appears to think it is inappropriate for anyone other than the married/potentially-married couple to know the sexual history of either person.
Re: the actual article
I suppose it really depends on whether the father is seeing something he thinks could be a problem, or if he's just being paranoid and all "what if?" If he's actually seeing something there, then he should share that with his daughter so she can take steps to clear it up. Otherwise he should get over it. She's not a 6 year old child who can't investigate these things for herself. Yeah, Dad is there to look out for things daughter might not see. I don't see how sexual history and present STIs are something she "can't see" if she gets given blood test results.
25. Autumn said the following at 6:49 PM on May 4:
I come from a pretty sheltered background, and my boyfriend doesn't. He too sinned sexually before he became a Christian. I knew about this before we started dating, and I'm o.k. with it. Thankfully for me, my dad (who's a preacher now) was also pretty wild when he was younger. He understands where my boyfriend's been, and that he's a different person now. Reading this, I realized how truly blessed I am to have my dad! He's always told me that he raised me to make my own decisions, and that includes choosing the man I marry.
26. beatrice81 said the following at 7:56 PM on May 4:
It’s hard to tell if this 27-year-old is really as naïve as she sounds, because this “letter” makes her sound mind-numbingly naïve, at about the maturity level of a 15-year-old. Danger signs everywhere.
“Prior to his conversion, he lived a pretty wild life, but since he was saved he has truly followed God, and all that is under the blood of Jesus.” She’s known this guy for all of 4 months, they’re not even dating yet, yet she is able to make firm declarations about his behavior over the course of 7 years, as if she had any possible way of knowing? Big red flag. Odds are she’s seen only what he’s wanted her to see. The fact that she really believes she knows someone who, by any normal measure, she barely knows at all – well that’s not a red flag, that’s a screaming red siren.
“I've never gone against my dad's advice, counsel or wishes in my life.”
Huh? In the whole 27 years of her entire life – including nearly a decade as an adult – she’s never, not once, gone against her father’s wishes? Never snuck an extra cookie, never stayed up past her bedtime or was out after curfew, never did anything except exactly what daddy wanted? Either she is truly the most docile passive person who ever walked the earth… or she’s lying or delusional. (I’d be more circumspect if I thought the letter was from a real person, as opposed to largely a fiction).
27. Chris said the following at 7:59 PM on May 4:
Brooke writes:
as someone all for courtship and transparency, there is a line. if they had progressed to the engagement period, these would be questions that this gentleman should by all means answer to HER, and she could choose to divulge those to her dad (this is not hiding - this is privacy and also sexual history should be between a husband and wife, not father and potential son in law. that is over the line)
I disagree on the daughter relaying information to the father. It's not for the woman to divulge these answers to her father. The relationship is between the man and the woman, not the man, the woman, and the father. If she divulges what was said to her (presumably in confidence), how does that bode for the relationship? How is a man or woman supposed to trust a spouse when deeply personal things said in trust are told to 3rd parties?
As others have pointed out, the father appears controlling. I think the father should say, "Here are my concerns" and let the daughter ask the questions. Then the daughter can report back to the father that the questions were asked, answered, and shown to provide reassuring/acceptable results. The details are for the future husband and wife. Otherwise, the marriage will be wrecked by the "little girl" always running to "daddy."
28. Courtney P. said the following at 8:22 PM on May 4:
Great post, I would have a question to asks to the father whehter or not he beleives his daughter is called to marriage, if so then who? Because this young man seems like he loves the Lord and has be very open with the young women as open with the father but up to a certain point. I would hate to see thenm get married and not be able to "leave and cleave" which the Bible commands not a suggestion. This can damage and harm the marriage. This young lady seems to honor her parents which she will be blessed for, God is in control.
29. geoandromeda said the following at 8:54 PM on May 4:
I agree that the sexual information is between a husband and wife but dad could have asked some information like: "since becoming a Christian has sexual sin been an issue?" and not required more than a yes/no answer.
And as a woman who desires to have a family very much I don't see getting a degree as taking away from that, but just adding to the experience that I will have to teach my children with.
And yeah dad seems a bit controlling.
30. Ted Slater said the following at 10:32 PM on May 4:
Kate (#18) -- not only are you harsh in your comments against parents who sacrifice their time and money to homeschool their children, but you are also deceptive in how you represent yourself. Sometimes you give your name as "Kate," other times it's "Sarah," "Beth," or "Rachel." Yet other times you go with "Suzie," "Anne," or "Claudia."
If you feel so strongly about your opinions, maybe don't hide behind a fake name and e-mail address, yeah? You're giving folks in Winterpark, Florida a bad name.
31. Lita Cosner said the following at 10:39 PM on May 4:
Kate #18
I suspect there are far fewer women making stupid decisions about men because they've been sheltered by good Christian parents than there are women making stupid decisions about men because they leave home at 18, meet someone at college and 'fall in love' far away from the family who would ordinarily be keeping tabs on the guys in her life. Keeping women with their families until they are married is not the problem here, and honestly, it's hard to see why you would make that comment unless you have an axe to grind against homeschooling or women staying with their families until married.
It's also incredibly unfair to the father to assume that he's simply some power-hungry patriarch; why not assume that he's simply concerned about his daughter who may be naive about men due to her limited experiences, and wants to make sure that this guy is really suitable for her? I agree that wanting to delve into his sexual past and STD tests is going too far, but we shouldn't be too quick to jump to judge his motives.
32. Ted Slater said the following at 11:00 PM on May 4:
Leah (#24) -- I'm the editor of Boundless Webzine. I not only "read" the article, I sent John the question and edited his reply.
I was 35 years old when I courted the woman who became my wife. Her father asked me some very personal questions, about STIs and such ... and I answered them. I had nothing to hide. Why should I hide anything? The shameful things I've done have been forgiven by the Lord, and I bear their burden no more. As the father of the woman I wanted to marry, he had every right to ask whatever he wanted. And I felt it was right for me to submit to his proper authority in asking those questions. I knew he was (and is) a godly man who cares for his daughter, and his invasive questions were legitimate, an expression of fatherly love.
I'm now a father of three young girls. I used to think that a father shouldn't have much say over what a young woman does with her life. Now that I am a father, though, who loves his girls more than most of you can possible fathom (yeah, that sounds patronizing, but it is true), I have a lot more sympathy for the father in this situation, who has changed his daughter's diapers, who has prayed nightly with her as he tucked her into bed, who has played crazy eights and hide-and-seek with her, who has danced with her, who has held her in church, who has taped back together pictures that have ripped, who has searched the web for just the right gifts, who has kissed her ouchies, who has taken her out on ice cream dates, who has witnessed her first breath, who has (with tears in his eyes) wiped vomit from her dress, who would sacrifice his life for her.... After so much love, a boy comes along who wants my daughter -- surely it's reasonable to continue expressing my love for my precious daughter by getting to know the man who wants to become the primary recipient of her hugs and kisses?
Seriously, can we extend a bit of grace toward this concerned father? The girl herself acknowledges that he's a good father, not a creepy, intrusive, "overly-controlling" man. Is it a good thing for us to try to turn her heart against her father, to introduce a wedge into a 27-year love that too few of us can appreciate?
33. BDB said the following at 11:15 PM on May 4:
Tami (#22) wrote:
>>but that, as a 31 year old, he is not responsible to tell a man who may or may not become his father in law about his medical history.<<
See, in the father's role, I would think it would be wise to be having conversations with her when she starts dating about the questions dad thinks are important. For example, if she was worried about disease, but was too embarassed to ask directly, it would be entirely appropriate for dad to ask on her behalf. I know some women who are pretty darn bold, and would ask all the questions before the guy got to her father, making it moot.
Let me give a medical history example. Before going on a medical missions trip, I was strongly encouraged to get a Hepatitis B vaccination. This is pretty much standard for those who work in the medical field, and the nurse leading our team pretty much said it was required. I explained this to my travel doctor who totally understood and gave me the initial vaccination.
A year later, I dropped by the local public health department to get the 1-year booster. They refused to give it to me, because the nurse didn't understand the way the travel doctor used a super-accellerated schedule giving me three doses in a 1-month period last year. In theory, you only need 3 doses total.
Then she made the comment, "Hep B is behavioral, anyway."
Immediately I recognized her thought process: only drug users and those intending to have lots of unprotected sex with people they don't know in foriegn countries need that vaccine.
So I quickly explained that I'd participated on a medical outreach trip, and we never know who will show up to the clinic. It's entirely possible to be exposed to someone's blood or other fluids unintentionally. Patient-contact professionals are generally required to get the vaccination if there is any chance that their job might result in them being stuck with a needle.
The thing is, Hepatitis B can be incurable, and shorten someone's life. This can then squarely affect someone's ability to be a provider, for example. So, if you're going to ask those "how will you provde for my daughter" related questions, medical history is not that far off.
Personally, I'd probably be more likely to ask about general health. It's not that serious or chronic health conditions are a deal-breaker. But they are things that need to be faced squarely so that expectations are realistic.
Think about the not-wild-life related health problems that people can't hide: food allergies, severe asthma, diabetes, cystic fibrosis, surviving cancer, rhumatoid arthritis. None of those would necessarily be deal-breakers for marriage. But because the might be more obvious on a day-to-day basis, they will likely need to be discussed much earlier. If someone is too immature to handle a medical challenge, it's important to get that moose out on the table.
Man, I'm starting to sound like the dad in A Walk to Remember aren't I?
34. Ted Slater said the following at 11:17 PM on May 4:
Chris (#27) -- you wrote, "I disagree on the daughter relaying information to the father. It's not for the woman to divulge these answers to her father. The relationship is between the man and the woman, not the man, the woman, and the father."
You speak of "relationship." Is not a 27-year relationship of some worth here? Think about that again: TWENTY-SEVEN YEAR RELATIONSHIP.
Listen, I had a pastor who married a woman against her father's counsel. Difficult decision. Sometimes people are right to marry someone without parental blessing.
But we should not be so quick to dismiss the counsel of a father who has loved his daughter for **27 years**.
As I mentioned in an earlier comment, my father-in-law asked me some very personal questions before I became engaged to his daughter. My wife has never run to her daddy. Our marriage has not been "wrecked" by my father-in-law's concern for his daughter.
35. Kelly said the following at 12:07 AM on May 5:
Just a comment regarding "sheltered women".
My cousins were home-schooled. They rarely, if ever, interact with people who were outside of their church. At family gatherings, every so often, they will make completely inappropriate comments. Rude remarks, racist remarks, all due to their poor social skills.
The oldest daughter is 28 this year and her parents have yet to approve of any suitors. Although there haven't been any who've shown interest since she was in her early 20's. :(
I would be SO worried if any of them started dating a "worldly" man because they would be so far out of their depth.
36. Texas Craig said the following at 12:09 AM on May 5:
It seems to me that if the young man wanted the father's blessing, which he apparently did since he approached him about it, then he should be willing to discuss his background and answer all of the questions--unless they appear to be done for an improper purpose (i.e., voyeuristic, etc.).
While I do think the father is being a little over-the-top in his questions, his blessing is his to give and no one has a right to it. So, if the young man is unwilling to do what is required to get the blessing, then that is his choice to make and the daughter can choose the decision she thinks is best.
It seems to me they all just need to sit down with a trusted believer (likely their pastor or a family friend) who can counsel them through this. No reason for this to be a problem if the parties involved will just communicate in love with each other. But, these problems usually carry on because the people involved avoid the "hard" communications in favor of the "easy" anger and bitterness..... it is sad the way people's bad decisions and fear of addressing conflict in a healthy way often puts them in emotional bondage....
37. DannieA said the following at 12:20 AM on May 5:
IDK....I can see both points of view...and although she is getting close to 30, she still isn't in her 30s...trust me, the view is different from there so Fathers can still give good council...
I remember when i was head over heals over some swooning guy in my life...I was 24...he and I had always had an amazing "connection" since I was 15 and he 18...my father knew this was not a good guy for me and did his best to interrogate him and told me that this wasn't a good guy and that if he were, he wouldn't evade so many questions or situations with my parents. While I didn't fall into sexual sin with this dude, I wasted some time with him and in the end my dad was right....and I was in my 20s.
I don't know I don't know...I thought the advice was good...I empathise on both sides.
38. DannieA said the following at 12:22 AM on May 5:
totally too late for me to be writing comments with lousy spelling and run on thoughts...
39. Janelle said the following at 12:42 AM on May 5:
I'm going to give some props to Kate #18 for saying the unpopular thing. I don't agree that homeschooling is wrong, or that living with one's parents is always wrong (I'm doing it myself). I don't believe that Kate was bashing homeschooling either. But if it's true that seeking the wisdom of several people is helpful, then why in the world is it wrong to say that perhaps we should expose our children to the wisdom of other people as they grow up?
I'm not talking about sending them to a Scientology kindergarten followed by Jewish day school followed by a degree at BYU. Of course we want them to learn about the Lord from a young age. Of course we don't want to unnecessarily expose them to false teaching.
But perhaps if this young woman had spent a few years away at a Christian college, she (and her parents) would have learned how to more easily relate as adult to adult, and not parent to child. As we get older we still respect and honor our parents, but the relationship changes. I think that if I had never spent time away from my parents, we would have a harder time agreeing to disagree, and I would not have learned as well how to think for myself instead of relying on their opinion.
Exposure to people who don't think quite like we do helps us grow in maturity and in our faith. Kate's point is quite a good one, actually: some people don't learn how to tell a bad egg from a good one because they haven't been exposed to any bad ones (I am not saying that's the case with the letter writer). People cannot be completely sheltered forever. And the "keeping daughters at home" part of Kate's post I read as expecting our daughters to live at home until marriage-- and live as our children, not as a mature adult who shares the same roof.
40. BDB said the following at 12:43 AM on May 5:
Allow me to offer a different perspective.
Say you've got a woman with a bit of a wild past. She's repented and her life looks great now. But deep down, she's decided that because of her past sin, no Christian man would ever accept her. She may know that it would be horrible to be married to a non-Christian also. So, she turns down all approaches.
From the guy's perspective, it's easy to conclude she's not interested in him, and simply move on.
However, it is possible that a man can extend enough grace for whatever the situation is. Sometimes the unknown is actually more intimidating than the mistake.
With many chronic health issues, there are good patients and bad patients. Someone with a manageable condition like diabetes, who refuses to manage it, would be huge red flag. Their attitude and discipline regarding the matter are very important - more important than the condition itself.
I had a specific situation when I felt like God was telling me I needed to tell someone specific that I believed we as Christians had an affirmative obligation to extend grace to people for mistakes they had made in the past. As I pondered this for a few days, I knew that if I said something like that, I could never go back on it. Especially if I put it in writing in an e-mail. It was a bit concerning to do that without knowing them very well.
But Jesus' command in Mark 11:25-26 is quite clear:
25 “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
Within hours of me sending that e-mail, they came back with a bunch of stuff they had never told me before. I was more than a little surprised. But it made sense - they seemed afraid to speak up about the non-Christian members of their family until after I volunteered forgiveness. It totally wasn't their fault, but it was embarassing.
I've heard some testimonies from people who've been through really dark times. It's hard to believe they were ever that way, seeing their lives now. But those who are truly changed are sometimes MORE likely to talk about the details, because they're excited about the way God delivered them.
41. Jethro said the following at 3:40 AM on May 5:
Here's a thought, maybe a guy in this situation should exercise his prerogative as a man and tell his would be father in law that he doesn't want to discuss his sexual past with him, that he will never want to discuss his sexual past with him, and that daddy can just suck it up and deal with it.
I will however agree with Ted (#32) when he says that the father has every right to ask those sort of questions. I'd just elaborate and say the boyfriend had every right not to answer.
42. Mike Theemling said the following at 5:06 AM on May 5:
A lot of good input and discussion here. There are valid concerns on both sides of the fence.
I too found the answer John Thomas gave both sound and appropriate, given the limited information he had. There are a number of factors at play here. A) How to resolve the tension between respecting a relationship with a parent and yet being an adult making decisions for yourself (if possible) B) How much information is appropriate to ask for and give regarding a suitor and C) The best way to proceed if reconciliation seems improbable.
I'm not going to rehash all the great points that people have brought up. I will simply say that I agree that there comes a time when a parent must let his/her child make decisions for themselves, even if that parent does not agree with the decision. She is a 27 year old adult. I would argue that if the father honestly does not believe that she is mature and ready enough to make her own decisions than he has really dropped the ball in raising her. Maybe he doesn't believe this but I doubt it because he doesn't even trust her to relay the truth about his boyfriend.
That being said, beatrice81 (#26) does bring up a good point that can be overlooked: 4 months of just knowing a guy is somewhat risky, especially with someone who used to by his own admission lived a "wild life", albeit 7 years ago. Again, we don't know all the details nor can we see this man (or woman) from an objective point of view. Although the father's implementation of suspicion is overboard in my opinion, I don't believe that the suspicion itself is invalid.
Finally, I'll say that if he/she does decide to go forward with the marriage process, they both need to be aware of the consequences with both eyes wide open. After 27 years of living only at home with Mom and Dad (what does Mom think about this by the way?) is not so easy to suddenly cut all ties off with them. John stated this, but I don't think he stressed it enough. Can she honestly handle the possibility of never being in good relations with them for a long time (perhaps this side of eternity), even after marriage? This may include her siblings as well. If not, then as unfortunate as it is, she might want to reconsider going forward as that stress will definitely affect their marriage. And what does he (the boyfriend) think of that possibility?
43. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:31 AM on May 5:
Comment 30, I use a "fake name" on here, but I am not hiding anything!
I also do not feel I am being "deceptive" by not using my real name, which I do not like BTW!
In my opinion, you should be more understanding about security issues on the internet esp. if women live alone, as I do.
If you don't like comment 18, so be it, but it was inappropriate to announce to everyone the IPS location of the commentor's computer.
44. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:48 AM on May 5:
Comment 36, I like your idea of seeking a neutral counselor to assist in sorting this out.
Comment 32, I believe your daughters are all still children. I don't mean to be critical, but you will need to adjust that mindset after they become adults.
And comment 32...if you were comfortable answering the personal question posted by your fiance's father, that's fine.
Another young man might be feel more strongly about his privacy.
Doesn't mean he is "wrong" and it doesn't mean that you were.
45. JuliestD said the following at 9:17 AM on May 5:
I completely agree with Alison #12 -- from my own personal experience, even though this girl's father is probably a man who has loved his daughter as best he knows how, it sounds like that they have a codependent, enmeshed family.
I am not throwing stones -- I come from such a family myself, and when I went to get married at 29 as a woman with a masters' degree and a profession, after living with my parents nearly my entire life, serving my family to the point of dysfunction and near cult-status, they still did not want me to marry, even though my choice was a Christian, never-married, no children, sexually pure, academically accomplished, financially responsible, professional man who clearly loved me and God deeply.
If my guess is right, this girl's father is not ever going to be happy that his daughter is marrying. This is why he will not be happy to hear the results second-hand from his daughter.
To a father in a codependent family, his daughter is not an individual person with a right to choose her own path which he and her mother must respect her choice. Her parents will be happy to continue in his role as her parent and her as child. This is a role which it seems she has not strayed from. They will be angered by any attempt on her part to sever the parent-child relationship. I suspect that like my own life, this is why she has had such a limited set of life experiences. I really identify and sympathize with this girl. You want to keep your parents' love, support, and approval, and so you rationalize to yourself that this is the life you want, living at home, not striking out much on your own, etc.
But marriage is not for kids, and requires an acknowledgment that she is an adult. However, her father is probably not going to be able to understand this. This girl needs to be prepared for the severing of relationship with her parents if she marries.
Don't get me wrong -- this can be the right choice. It was for me. But it is a choice that for me was earth-shaking. It has been like a death of my entire family, as none of them even a year later are talking to me but my sister.
My husband and I grieve over this, and pray for reconciliation, and we tried all the way through to accomodate my parents, but they would not be accommodated. You can't make people do things they don't want to.
But this girl has a choice: she can continue to be a little girl in her parents' house, and receive her parents' conditional and infantilizing love -- or -- she can step out and take a slight risk on this man's love (assuming she has prayed extensively and fasted for God's will) and blossom into the woman that God has intended for her to be.
I know what my choice was, and it came with a high cost. But it was worth it. My growth in the Lord has been deep and hard, and I wouldn't trade that, or my relationship with my husband, for any rose-garden of a year living as a an enabling codependent with my family.
46. Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D. said the following at 9:22 AM on May 5:
BDB (#40), that reminds me of the original Catch-22 novel. One of its examples was: a girl was upset that no man would marry her because she wasn’t a virgin, yet she refused to marry any man crazy enough to marry a non-virgin.
47. Ted Slater said the following at 9:28 AM on May 5:
Louise from Chicago (#43) -- as far as I know, you use but one ID and one e-mail address. It's fine to use an alias to protect your privacy.
But what Kate/Sarah/Beth/Rachel/Suzie/Anne/Claudia is doing is outright deceptive. All her comments are critical and unhelpful to the discussion (we have not published the harshest/most snide things she's said); I have the sense that she's simply a hit-and-run disrupter, and doesn't want to have an honest conversation.
And in regards to your comment #44 -- of course I will need to adjust the mindset I have toward my pre-K daughters when they're older. The fact will remain, though, that the years-long love I'll have developed with my daughters should not be brushed aside when a young man enters the scene. Yes, of course I plan to raise them well, to make good decisions mostly on their own....
48. Louise from Chicago said the following at 9:49 AM on May 5:
Comment 47 I disagree that comment 18
is unhelpful to this discussion.
Apparently the commentor doesn't think homeschooling is a good idea, apparently due to the risk of social isolation, and she believes an apparent social isolation may have contributed to this family conflict.
She probably isn't the only one who is of this opinion!
49. Jo said the following at 9:57 AM on May 5:
I can see both sides too. I agree with the advice given (and when I put myself in the girl's shoes I get very indignant with the father), but other commenters have pointed out things in her letter that do sound naive - so who knows. Perhaps she needs her father to take this role, he knows her better than we do after all, and perhaps he's seeing something in the boyfriend that she (and we) are not.
However, if she needs him to take that role because she's 'too sheltered', that's a much deeper issue in my view. In other words, if she is misjudging this situation as a result of her parents keeping her out of the real world to the extent that she has no skills to navigate relationships with people outside of her immediate bubble, then they have made a HUGE mistake in the way they have raised her.
If that's the case, as several commenters have suggested, it's not simply a question of siding with the father because what he's doing is necessary: it's only necessary because he's made it so, and that's not right.
NB - I'm not equating 'homeschooled' with 'sheltered', so please don't read anything to do with homeschooling into the above comment! :)
50. Alison said the following at 10:33 AM on May 5:
Ted, It has become very obvious that the subject of homeschooling is very very sensative to you. I think the problem is that homeschooling is counterculture to how the majority of Americans are educated. As its a very small population many of us have had limited exposure home school children. Myself personally I have had both positive and negative exposure to home schooled children. With ANY education system there are negatives and positives. Today there are so many different methods to home school. It would be like comparing apples to oranges to compare one home school child to another. In fact I think one of the greatest strengths is the ability to create an educational program that best fits the child. What is important is that the education program helps develop the child to their best potential. My only concern with homeschooling is when the parent is not prepared for the task before them of educating the child socially, physically, and mentally. I think you would have to also agree that some parents have used homeschooling as a method to "control" there children. This level of control can become unhealthy when the child enters adulthood, but lives in fear of the parent. I also think some children with learning/physical disabilities are better served in schools with trained professionals. Public Schools are setup to provide speech/ occupational therapy, etc.
51. Kate said the following at 10:57 AM on May 5:
I don't want to use my real name. I'm sure that doesn't make me the first. I never said that homeschooling was the cause for the women's isolation. But, she has been isolated throughout her school years and now as an adult. This has to be harmful to how she relates to her parents. Stop putting words in my mouth.
52. Irene M. said the following at 10:57 AM on May 5:
I don't mean to sound snarky at all, so please forgive me if this sounds harsh. However, what exactly is the letter writer expecting? People in authority sometimes say no. It's sometime arbitrary and it's sometimes unfair, but that is generally the way it works. The writer is an adult woman who at this point has voluntarily placed herself under father's authority. It's a difficult situation, but she really only has two options. One, continue to obey her father the way (I assume) she's been doing in the past or two, reevaluate the dynamics of their relationship. That doesn't mean completely rejecting her father (although it hypothetically could), but she really does need to reevaluate how much authority she wants her father to hold.
In response to comment 18, I was actually homeschooled for quite some time by parents who sometimes did use it to irrationally control their daughters. So, I'm not saying that such a situation does not exist. However, the writer doesn't seem unhappy about being homeschooled or (until now) with the relationship she had with her family. If she didn't like having her parents excercising authority over her and Boundless was advising her to suck it up anyways, that would be one thing. However, it's sounds like she chose to not go to college or seek outside employment. As far as I can tell, no one is forcing her to do anything and frankly I trust an adult woman to handle her own business. Considering the woman's letter, I think your comment is out of line.
53. Irene M. said the following at 11:02 AM on May 5:
Although, I will say, the letter writer should not discuss someone's private medical info without thier express permission. Even if she decides to break it off with him over it, it's incredibly important to respect every individual's privacy. To do otherwise, unless it's an emergency, is incredibly disrespectful and shows a certain lack of character.
54. Elisabeth said the following at 11:08 AM on May 5:
I've been watching this conversation with interest, because my age and family situation are very close to the letter writer's. (Though in my case, I've spent time both at home and elsewhere since I graduated from high school).
The challenging thing is that people can use the very same terminology (like "submission," for instance) to describe healthy relationships...and very disfunctional ones.
Since we don't know this woman personally, it's easy to read our own experiences into her letter. For instance, I tend to think the best of her father. Here's why:
Though I frequently consult my dad for his advice and direction (which he willingly gives), he consistently encourages me to seek God myself - and in his mind, the final responsibility for making decisions about my life rests on me.
My dad views me as an adult and a peer. In fact, he seeks my advice on areas where I have experience or expertise that he does not.
It's not surprising, then, that we enjoy a very deep level of trust. I know that this trust may come to its ultimate test when (God willing) I am pursued by a godly guy, and my dad helps me weigh my dreams against the realities of the man in question.
Based on my experience, I would be very sorry to see this young woman throw away such a priceless relationship with her dad by unnecessarily cutting him out of this life-changing decision.
On the other hand, I'd be sorry to see the dad simply cutting off his conversation with this young man.
The value of involving a dad includes the fact that women (especially women in love) tend to want to negotiate - sometimes on non-negotiables - while men (especially dads) want to challenge and confront. This is the beauty of God's design, and why as men and women, we need to work together.
However, I wonder if sometimes fathers might need to view potential suitors with a little more "Faith for the man he will become" and not so much on a pass-fail basis. I wonder if in this case, the father broke off the conversation on the assumption that the young man's refusal to answer was a character issue, and not some other issue. Further dialogue might have revealed this distinction.
That's why my favorite part of John Thomas's advice is the bit about bringing in further counsel - from someone who knows them.
And to the woman who wrote the letter: if you're reading this, I'd just like you to know that I'm praying for you!
55. Megan said the following at 11:33 AM on May 5:
As someone with a past (prior to my salvation), I think I can share a valid viewpoint.
I'd like to commend the father of this young woman for asking hard questions. Although, an important fact to remember is that hard questions can easily become inappropriate. I think this is one of those times.
How about, "Have you been tested? Are you planning on getting tested?" It's completely inappropriate for Dad to be asking for hard copy results of this young man's STD tests.
I like #26's response: is this girl really that naive? Has she really never gone against her father's wishes before? Not that the times she did go against his wishes were right ... but the statement makes the young lady seem immature. It seems a bit like overkill. #3 makes a great point: why bring up something that you can't change. If singles are counseled not to unload every sin onto their possible spouses, why should the young man give his possible future father-in-law the results of the tests as well as other answers (remember, STDs were only a part of the questions).
Look, I'd love it if my dad had demanded more from my past boyfriends, and hopefully future boyfriends. He cares about me in a Christian light, but he's never been involved in my dating life. I'd like to hear him ask hard questions of my "suitors" (I can't believe I just used that word).
I think the scenario is amazing to think about and prepare our own hearts with if we ever come into this situation or one similar to it. I don't believe we've heard the whole story, though. I like John's response: someone really close to the family should council in this situation. I think if this is the only thing holding the two lovebirds up, then I'd go on with the courtship and marriage.
56. EconNicole said the following at 11:38 AM on May 5:
So my parents have had a similar reaction everytime I've dated. I like the advice he gave to her, and with my current fiance I finally had to really stand up to them. Currently we are not allowed to even go visit them. This has only been happening for about a month, so hopefully that will get relaxed. (He and I live in the same city about to hours from my parents). I have come to the realization that my dad would never be okay with any guy I brought home. I think they love me enought that they will eventually accept the godly man I love as well.
I think this man is probably much like my dad. He loves his daughter, doesn't mean to be controlling, is just over-protective of her. This guy looks different than the man he had is mind for her. Dad's have a hard time accepting that.
On a note about the advice given to her, with a previous guy I breifly went out with my parents exploded about me dating him as well. I called my pastor after one particular night. I shared with him everything, completely truthful -- there is more I'm not sharing on here but did with him. He said that I should take my parents advice to heart, but that it didn't automatically mean I shouldn't see the guy. He just talked to me about the kind of man to look for in marriage. Since I had only been on two dates with the guy and had spent maybe a month getting to know him, he said that getting to know him a little more was probably not a bad thing, but I did still live under my parents roof -- at least for the summer -- and I needed to think of the implications of that.
Well, to my point, my parents got
really mad after I spoke to him (despite knowing it beforehand) because they were certain he would of course side with them (my dad being an elder in the church I think they assumed my pastor would just say obey your parents). When he didn't agree with them they said I had made up all kinds of lies and hadn't told him the truth and they couldn't believe I would make them look bad like that. So I'm just saying that talking to someone is a good idea, but prepare for hostility from her parents about that as well. Even if they seem to think it's a great idea beforehand.
By the way, my pastor also told my dad that my fiance seems like a great guy and that my dads concerns are, at least, biblically invalid.
Oh, and for any "dads" out there (or moms I guess), my dad has prayed all my life for the man I would marry one day. Now he is saying he would know that person and it's not my fiance. Since we are marrying in ten weeks I'm pretty certain he IS the man I'm marrying one day. So I feel like my dad has been praying for him -- even if he's not exactly what my dad was looking for. I was wondering if ya'll had any thoughts.
Oh, and to this girl. I'm glad I'm not the only one very torn between the man whom you truly believe God has brought into your life and the parents who have been there loving you your entire life.
57. BDB said the following at 12:05 PM on May 5:
Louise from Chicago - Ted was calling #18 out because the individual is using the same name as other people who post here - but doing so with fake e-mail addresses. There is more than one Kate. In terms of moderating the discussion, it helps if everyone is consistent in how they post.
I'd noticed a few comments that didn't seem to jive with the way the person usually posts. It seems that was because someone else was posting using their handle. If another "Louise from Chicago" started posting a bunch of tirades against life situations you have compassion for, such as older divorced singles, I expect you would be concerned by this.
Being a sleuthy person, Ted identified the IP address where they were coming from. That's entirely appropriate for a moderator to do. The ought to pick something and stick to it.
58. Kellie said the following at 12:12 PM on May 5:
I think #18 has a valid point. I would assume she isn't talking about simply homeschooling, but the whole ultra conservative movement of keeping daughters "serving" at home until they get married. I admit I find it rather disturbing as well.
59. Kate said the following at 12:14 PM on May 5:
(Author of comment #5, not the other one.) Sorry, but this will be kind of long.
First off, Ted, your words on fatherhood were very moving, and remind me of how much I love my dad, and of the loving care he's given me my whole life. I am 25, and while I do not live with my family and I work full time, I deeply love and respect my parents. While no man has yet pursued me for marriage, I look forward to both my parents' input as I make decisions in that area one day, Lord willing.
JuliestD (45) - Your story was very moving as well. We can't tell from the letter, of course, but if the young woman's father doesn't fundamentally recognize her as an adult, or deep down doesn't ever want her to get married, than nothing she nor any suitor (no matter how perfect) will do will ever be enough for him. Also, ironically, by the father drawing an adversarial line in the sand and effectively asking his daughter to chose sides, he is making it much harder for her to clearly evaluate her potential boyfriend. When a young person is contemplating marriage, they should be free to concentrate on evaluating God's will in regard to the relationship, and whether their intended is indeed God's best. This young woman, in deciding whether to move forward with her boyfriend, has to divide her energy between evaluating him and worrying about her father.
What also struck me as another red flag with the father's behavior was that the young man wasn't asking the father's blessing to get engaged to the woman, but rather to court her -- spend more focused time with her to see if they would be a good match for marriage. At that time, the young man and woman could still conclude they would not be a good match -- or the young woman could decide something in the man's past was a deal-breaker for her -- and they could go their separate ways. I would think that, if I were a father, the start of a courtship would also give me a chance to spend more time with the young man and evaluate him. It seems like the father is reacting to the young man as though the young man is asking permission to propose, not just begin a courtship.
Finally, in regards to the young man and woman only knowing each other four months... my feeling is that four months is a reasonable amount of time to conclude you'd like to pursue someone else for marriage, if you're the age and maturity level of the two people involved in this situation, and especially since they've spent those four months talking deeply, not just going to the moving and "hanging out." And again, the young couple just want to begin a courtship, not get engaged yet.
60. Rachael said the following at 12:21 PM on May 5:
Rather than look at the degree of this girl's shelteredness and homeschooling background, if there are little to no people who have pursued her, then that along with her age might be affecting things.
Wow! Finally someone's interested! The feeling of being the one pursued can be a nice feeling -- I've felt it and have talked about that with a friend who has also felt that. And he could very well be a wonderful person.
If the father sees REAL things she can't because of her in-loveness, I think it would be good for those things to be discussed.
It's my guess that non-sheltered people along with sheltered people could very well use the advice of spiritual people - relatives or whoever.
Her background is essentially no one here's business, and it is very likely she is reading these comments.
And I think shelteredness doesn't always have to be directly related to the way we're raised. I was homeschooled K-8th but I was public high schooled, have been to several colleges, ended up with a Master's, have worked at various places and have lived alone in the U.S. and abroad. And now I'm married.
But to a degree, I'm still sheltered...not completely, but to some level.
Regardless of our exposure to the 'world', we can still choose to shelter ourselves to a degree. Do I need to have experienced everything on the wild side? No (though I have to a degree). I know things exist, as this girl likely does as well. She doesn't have to experience all forms of evil to know of it's existence.
And we don't know - she could very well be active in her community and church rubbing elbows with people in the world.
This post is about her issue with her dad and decision to date, not her background.
She wants to do the right thing, and that's very respectable.
61. cn said the following at 1:35 PM on May 5:
There are so many unknowns here.
One thing that we don't know from the letter is whether or not this relations is one that other people of spiritual influence and authority in this young woman's life would bless.
What does her Pastor think about the possibility of this friendship turning more intentional?
How about mentors and other leaders?
If they were all in agreement that this man is of strong character, then its likely the father is dealing with relinquishing some control over his adult daughter. However, if the others have concerns as well, then the woman is deceived. Deception can happen at any age.
I think the best thing to do at this point is to meet with their Pastor and receive wise counsel from him.
62. Lukas said the following at 2:33 PM on May 5:
The privacy issues here remind me of the federal laws that prohibit pre-employment polygraph exams for most employers. This is obviously in place to protect the privacy of employees, but there are a few exceptions to the law, most notably among law enforcement agencies and others dealing with sensitive information. These are strictly on a "need to know" basis and the information gained thereby is handled by only those immediately in charge of hiring the candidate in order to protect privacy. It relates to the girl and her father because since the father ultimately cannot make the decision for the girl, he may not have the right to these sensitive medical records he desires to see.
63. Lucie said the following at 3:25 PM on May 5:
The original letter writer commented: "My dad was not OK with that and would not discuss any other questions with him, nor give him permission to court me. He also counseled me to break off our relationship completely."
Frankly, this sounded to me more like the response of a pouting child than a mature parent.
64. Fisayo said the following at 3:58 PM on May 5:
Wow!!When I first saw this article, I found it slightly hard to swallow. Being a sort of person who stands her grounds(in a positive way most times) when everyone else seems to think otherwise and very much having my own mind as a person. I thought, "Bless God, he has no right to ask that from my boyfriend"
But that's why I love Boundless, it makes you think about things in a more biblical way.lol.
I think John Thomas was spot on. Reading some of the comments here made me slightly more sympathetic for her father. the father and daughter have probably built a sort of relationship where he knows every single detail about her including her periods. He definately wants the same level of details from her suitor.
but the young man has every right to draw a line here. He has only known the girl for 4 months and her dad for probably the same length of time. If Daddy had started with the slightly less personal questions and then moved on to slight more personal ones when he built some sort of relationship with his potential future son-in-law, then maybe the young man would have been open. But on the other hand, if her father is using this as a scare tactic because he doesnt like him or he's overprotective, then the young man could decide to step up to the plate or leave.
This must be such a hard thing for her to deal with. even with my slightly stubborn streak, i still want to honour my parents and keep to the Word of God because God blesses us in obedience. This might just be her cross to carry.
65. RuRu said the following at 4:02 PM on May 5:
P&P
I do not understand what you mean by saying that "sheltered girls" are over there head by dating guys who used to sleep around but have repented. Are the guys you are speaking about the ones who say they have repented but are not sincere about their confession or all men who have a past? If a man who has fallen in that area is actively seeking purity I do not see the problem or the concern. Will be a struggle everyday to live a differently than what they had known? Of course but that is the story for all Christians. Every day we battle the flesh. Maybe someone who grew up in the church/ home school may not understand the intensity that the battle can be for those who accepted Christ later in life.
I am just interested in what you mean when you and your friends would help the women you worked with handle situations like this. What specifically were you worried about? What can you share that might help "sheltered" women beyond just getting experience? What should they be concerned about/ looking to avoid?
66. skp said the following at 6:01 PM on May 5:
I'm not sure that being "sheltered" is bad.
My sister went against my fathers advice and married a guy who terrorized her, put them in massive debt, cheated on her, basically made her life a living hell. I married the opposite. She once in an angry outburst called my life "perfect", said I couldn't possibly know the real world, accussed me of being sheltered. Does this mean I can't make decisions??
67. Leah said the following at 7:27 PM on May 5:
Beatrice81 - I don't think I've ever gone against my father's wishes (knowingly). Are you calling me a liar and delusional? My Dad just isn't the type to make a lot of demands. Mum is, and let me assure you, there's plenty of times I've not done what she's told me to. But Dad? Yeah, maybe when I was 5, but I can't remember that far back.
Ted (32) - you know what I really hate? People who acknowledge they're being offensive or patronising and don't care. It's like saying "no offense, but..."
You can state your argument without being patronising. You're an editor. You use words for a living. Besides, it's not like I ever made any claim about your love for your daughters that you somehow needed to defend.
And I have to ask if you actually read my comment properly, even if you did moderate it. Did I ever make any comment about the father's right to look after his daughter and protect her? No. That seems to be what 3/4 of your comment is all about.
Yes, you (and her father) have the right to screen guys who want to date the daughter and to protect her. And I don't care about the questions that the father posed. They're fine. What's important is why the young man responds the way he does. If he was actually being secretive about his sexual history- which he doesn't appear to be- then that's a problem. But the point is, he's quite happy to share that information with the person he currently intends to be his wife. He doesn't think that information is appropriate for anyone else. Now, whether this opinion is right or not, I would think the father should at least engage with him further to establish better what sort of man he is. Is he the kind that would try to hide an unsavoury history? Or is he the kind that just places a high importance upon the intimacy of (potential) marriage and the information shared there? The guy really doesn't seem to be "trying" to "hide" anything. His opinion might be misled, but he's not out to be deceptive like some people suggest.
Most of my comment was about the boyfriend, not the father. I'm not exactly sure where you get off lecturing me about a father's right to protect his daughter when I never questioned it. In fact, you'll notice I specifically said that if the father is seeing something dangerous in this guy, then by all means, let's listen to the father. But by cutting off all negotiation, engagement (between father and boyfriend) and discussion, I really think the father's gone over the top.
If your twenty-seven year old daughter brought home a thirty one year old man (NB: Not a 14 year old bringing home a 15 year old) who she adores, would you cut him off after him refusing to answer one question, or would you sus him out further?
Kate (18) - I've seen more leave-home-before-20 women who have made stupid decisions about men than women who have stayed in the family home.
DannieA - I don't think you can say that women in their 30s are somehow categorically wiser than those in their 20s. I mean, there's a bigger difference in wisdom and maturity between a 21 year old & 28 year old than a 28 year old and 31 year old.
Kate 51 - nobody's saying you should use your real name. Just use the same name. Posting under 8 different names is deceptive. Very few people know BDB or P&P's real names, but we can understand their comments better because we've seen what they've written in the past under the same pseudonyms.
Megan (55) - are you seriously saying the fact this girl has not gone against her father's wishes makes her immature?!
68. sarah elizabeth said the following at 7:30 PM on May 5:
There is a difference between secrets and privacy. To be keeping secrets would be wrong. To be allowed to keep some things private within a relationship I believe should be acceptable.
It is hard in this situation to really know what is going on. It could go either way. If the father has reaon to think there is a problem (other than that just isnt who he pictured for his daughter), his actions seem realistic. If not and he is juist not trusting his daughter and determined she only marry someone who fits his mold as to what her husband should be, then that is wrong.
Regardless of either reason, he should NOT have stopped communicating. He should be talking with her daughter, hearing what she thinks about this guy. he should be telling her his concerns and explaining why this information is so vital. And, he should not have stopped talking to the man. To withhold his blessing is his perogative, but would it not be beneficial for him to invite this young man into their lives and get to know him for who he is? he may feel different about how much the man shares if he has a chance to get to know him personally. Im frankly surprised they do not already know him well.
Also, as for knowing the guy for only 4 months. The context in which they know each other could make all the difference for whether this is a long time or short. I agree it is not very long. however, if it is in the context where they have spent itme together with other groups of people and she has been able to observe him with his friends, her friends, his family, and hers-those multiple interactions can tell a lot about a person in a short time.
69. Ted Slater said the following at 7:53 PM on May 5:
Leah (#67) -- re-reading what I wrote in comment #32, I see that it was written poorly. My first paragraph was meant for you, and the rest was in response to all the harsh comments from others toward the father. People calling him "creepy," calling him a "controlling, fundamentalist father with an iron fist on his firstborn daughter," and so on.
So please read all paragraphs after the first one as responses to the harshness poured out on a father who clearly loves and cares for his daughter. The daughter herself acknowledges that he's a good guy when she writes, "My dad is a very godly man whom I love and respect."
I think that's why you found my comment confusing -- because most of it wasn't directed toward you. When I was talking about the love I have for my daughters being "more than most of you can possible fathom," I was addressing "the group," not you. And I stand by that statement, though it may come across as patronizing. There is a love a parent has that I never understood during my 36 years as a single guy; I doubt that anyone can really grasp it until they themselves become parents. And I don't know how to make that seem a non-patronizing thing to say in a sentence or two.
I should have made a better transition at the beginning of the second sentence, Leah. For that I apologize.
70. Chris said the following at 8:24 PM on May 5:
Ted writes in 34:
You speak of "relationship." Is not a 27-year relationship of some worth here? Think about that again: TWENTY-SEVEN YEAR RELATIONSHIP.
I didn't say it wasn't. I said the relationship (e.g., the potential marriage) was between the man and the woman, not the man, the woman, and the father. Yes, you marry into a family and have to deal with them, but the core of the relationship is between two adults.
The father has every right to bring up concerns and talk to his daughter and the suitor about them. His need to get into gory details, however, is not healthy. If the suitor says that he's being treated for depression, should the father demand to see all medications, psychiatric evaluations, and medical reports?
But we should not be so quick to dismiss the counsel of a father who has loved his daughter for **27 years**.
I didn't. I said he could bring those concerns to his daughter who could ask the questions and then report back that they were answered adequately (or not).
As I mentioned in an earlier comment, my father-in-law asked me some very personal questions before I became engaged to his daughter. My wife has never run to her daddy. Our marriage has not been "wrecked" by my father-in-law's concern for his daughter.
Good for you. My father-in-law hardly asked me anything, and his youngest daughter is now the only one not divorced/separated from a long term relationship. But I digress....
I have a problem with a father who wants to see blood tests from a potential suitor. Where does it stop? Obviously, the father wants a man who will provide for his daughter. Does the suitor divulge all his pay stubs, bank account information, passwords to his 401(k) website, and so forth? How about his college transcripts since one often needs a college degree for certain jobs. What about criminal background checks?
And what about after the marriage? Can the father demand yearly blood tests to make sure the man isn't "slipping" and fooling around? After all, the father would just be looking out for his daughter.
We're not talking about some 18 year old girl who should have someone double-check if she's balanced her check book correctly. We're talking about a 27 year old woman. In a healthy relationship, we should be beyond needing to verify details and instead be working on the "big picture."
I'm a parent, too, Ted. A big part of our job is to help our kids grow into adults. That means today I wash the cut, kiss the boo-boo, put a band-aid on it, and give my son a hug and a lollipop. That means 10 years from now I tell him to shake it off and fix it himself.
That means today I tell him right and wrong and how he will behave or suffer the consequences (from me). That means 20 years from now, I give him my advice on what's right and wrong and what the consequences are. Then I let him decide.
One final note:
The suitor offered to have testing done and share that with the daughter. If it's not enough for the father to accept from the 27 YEAR OLD daughter that she's seen the results and is satisfied, what does that say about the counsel of the father and the worth of the relationship?
71. Ruru said the following at 8:33 PM on May 5:
Is the dad being a little extreme, maybe. However, I think we should consider that this is his first girl. There is alot to that. A few years ago I learned the lesson, in that the reason my dad puts his fist down about certain things is that he cares about my relationship to God more than a potential suitors feelings. For the most part, parents are the only people who do not want anything but the best (there exceptions).
72. Ted Slater said the following at 9:17 PM on May 5:
Chris (#70) -- you speak of the father's "need to get into gory details." I don't see that. The only example we have of his "invasiveness" is that he wants to see the blood test for himself, to see if the young man's "pretty wild life" has resulted in an infection that would then infect his daughter, an infection that has the ability to disable or kill either or both.
Beyond that, I see no examples of any "gory details." If you read closely, I don't think that's even implied in the young woman's original question. Let's not read into it what isn't there.
Your "slippery slope" argument is fallacious, of course. There is no indication that the young woman's father will be intrusive and controlling after she's married, no indication that he's poised to ask questions about finances, college transcript, and so on. Again, let's not read into this what's not there. Let's not make the father out to be some sort of overbearing, controlling, patriarchal cliche.
73. Johnny said the following at 9:29 PM on May 5:
It does not matter how old the suitor is the girl's father is still her father. He has the God-given role of being her protector. How do we know that this suitor is really now a Christian and/or living a Christian lifestyle.
In my experience, I have known or known of many girls who were just plain naive at best as to the true nature of the men that they had relationships with- especially "good Christian girls". It is disgusting but it often seems that good girls go after bad and plain nasty disgusting guys. It is likely that the father may be discerning that the suitor is not all that his daughter believes him to be.
74. DannieA said the following at 10:46 PM on May 5:
Leah,
I'm about to turn 31 in 2 1/2 weeks...looking back yeah even from age 27 to now, there is a big difference....maybe not as big as 21 to 27 but there still is a difference especially in this day and age.
I think that usually by the time you hit 30 or are in your early 30s, you do take on more responsibilities (assuming one is a typical person)...when responsibilities hit (and they could be just bigger responsibilities within the single life) it does make you wiser and more mature.
at 27 I was living between my parents and apartments....by 30 I had bought a house, bought a dog, owned my car, and had taken more leadership in church and in work...these little things.
After all in the words of my mother "well Danette, Jesus moved out of His house and started His ministry at 30, it's time for you to do likewise"
(note: I live a mile from my folks and they are happy with that :) :) :D )
75. BDB said the following at 11:46 PM on May 5:
Honestly, the men I know who were wild before becoming Christians would definitely give a young man a very specific grilling. It would probably seem like more like an accountability session with the men's ministry - the'd be asking how long he'd been sober, what he does when he feels the urge, what his triggers are...what he does now instead of using substances. They would get a grilling!
Frankly, people make a lot of bad choices under the influence. If the separate from their wild friends and cease the use of the substances, a lot of the other bad behavior ceases, also. I know people who have family members they love to be around when they are sober, but can't be relied on when they aren't.
I think dad made a significant mistake to try and discuss sexual matters first. Start with theology, money, time...find out if there are any deal breakers there, first. To be basic, if someone is not a regular giver to their church, and that is something the family believes in strongly, that's a deal breaker right there. I know someone in her early 20's who broke off a relationship because the guy couldn't understand or support her regular tithing. Her parents were very proud of her for breaking it off for that reason. Personally, I agree that how someone chooses to give their money says a huge amount about their character today - especially for a man. For goodness sake, have that conversation first.
76. BDB said the following at 1:20 AM on May 6:
The thing that keeps coming up in my mind is that after seven years, there should be some significant Fruit of the Spirit evident to everyone. I know several people whose testimony includes a wild past, but the fruit of the spirit (from Galatians 5:22) is so evident that when they give their testimony, it almost seems like they're telling someone else's story.
Personally, I'd first be asking about where he was volunteering with their church in that time. THEN go ask the people in charge of those ministries. Are they reliable and a leader? Or did they use their "ministry" involvement to pick up girls? Or are they church-hopping every few months so no one knows their character?
For example, I go to a big church, though I started attending 15 years ago when there were only 300 people. Many of those original people are now ministry leaders. While there are now thousands of people I don't know, anyone who's been volunteering for a few years knows the ministry leaders over whatever ministry they are involved in. Those leaders in turn know me. It's only a one-step connection for anyone who is a regular volunteer.
I'm reminded of something else I learned in a Contract Law class. We were taught to not automatically accept everything weird in a contract. There are some lawyers who deliberately load up "throw-away" items. In the negotiation, they can give those things up. It is a strategy to later on say, "Well, look at all we've given up for you!!"
The best negotiating response is to first ask, "Why do you want that in there?" If there is a legitimate reason, such as a bad experience they had with someone else. Then you can get that issue on the table and discuss it. If dad knows of others who ended up in a bad situation due to disease, he may have become adamant about this rule. Those who have alcoholics in their familiy tend to be a lot more sensitive to substance abuse because they know how bad it can get.
I remember back when I was in college, and AIDS was very scary. There was lots of discusson about when you should ask someone to be tested. There was also a lot of fear that you could catch it - one rumor was that saliva was enough. And there was a stigma attached to getting tested.
I always thought that the blood banks had an interesting plan. While they were required to ask all those remarkably intrusive questions about sexual behavior, they allowed people to confidentially fill out a secret ballot and say "discard my blood."
Heck, that's a way to get around dad asking the questions - ask the potential boyfriend to go with you to give blood! Let a nurse ask those questions. If he gets upset and storms out, you know you have a problem. If nothing else, it would be a stark reminder of why the questions are important.
And, they do test the blood for those things, too, and (depending on their policy) will notify the donor if there is a positive result on any of the tests and they should go see a doctor.
Keep in mind that those who go on missions trips to 3rd world nations usually are not allowed to give blood for 12 months after they return to the U.S.
77. Megan said the following at 7:44 AM on May 6:
Yes, Leah, #67 ... that's what I am saying.
I think what the young woman meant to say was: When it comes to big decisions, I've never gone against my father's wishes.
This is why I am weird about Boundless' "The Line". For starters, this young woman's real life isn't put into perspective for us. She gave us a quick rundown of her life, making blanket statements like "I've never gone against my father's wishes". We then second guess everything she says, getting caught up on the stuff that isn't pertinent to her situation: homeschool, no college, lives at home with her parents, etc. So then the comments morph into things like arguments for public school or homeschool, sheltering your children, etc.
I think the advice that Boundless staff gives is incredible and, most importantly, biblical and sound.
I wonder if the young woman is reading the comments left on here, getting incredibly discouraged about something that wasn't even part of the original problem?
78. Rachael said the following at 9:29 AM on May 6:
"I'm about to turn 31 in 2 1/2 weeks...looking back yeah even from age 27 to now, there is a big difference....maybe not as big as 21 to 27 but there still is a difference especially in this day and age. "
I suppose it depends on the individuals. And even when the age difference translates to other differences, of course there are many people who still marry. I'm one - my husband is over 9 years older than me - I'm 28 and he's now 38. And there are differences between us, but I don't think age is the only factor in that. And I do hope that by the time I'm his age (and before) that I'll be further along in my spiritual (and character) growth. I think on Monday an older lady told me she felt women were at their peak in their 30s. I suppose that's different for each person, but hopefully for me I haven't reached mine. And for Christians God will hopefully be growing and teaching us throughout our whole lives...not just until a 'peak' or whatever - to the peak and beyond!
79. Rachael said the following at 9:32 AM on May 6:
Oh - maybe I wasn't reading or concentrating on part of DannieA's comment right...looks like she's saying she felt a difference between 27 and 31, I think...ok. Well, that's encouraging and I look forward to the growth :)
80. Rachael said the following at 9:45 AM on May 6:
"I wonder if the young woman is reading the comments left on here, getting incredibly discouraged about something that wasn't even part of the original problem? "
Me too, and I hope she isn't...she's a respectable person!
81. Ted Slater said the following at 9:52 AM on May 6:
Megan (#77) -- you asked, "I wonder if the young woman is reading the comments left on here...."
Yup, she is. I asked her to read through the discussion and send me an e-mail with her reactions. I've received that e-mail and will post it to its own blog for discussion.
How's that for a teaser? :-)
82. Leah said the following at 11:24 PM on May 6:
Megan (77) - I don't see how on earth people's misled comments have anything to do with the lady's maturity.
You said she was immature because she's never gone against her father's wishes. I suppose this makes the pot-smoking teenage mothers more mature than her because they're rebels?
83. Anon said the following at 2:11 PM on May 19:
Maybe somebody should tell these "dads" that they've done far more to kill the faith of these prospective boyfriends than any atheist, any porn star, or any other person ever thought about. How do I know? Personal experience.