'Not Telling Dad' Daughter Responds

'Not Telling Dad' Daughter Responds
by Ted Slater on 05/06/2009 at 11:59 AM

Before you go on to read this blog, let me encourage you to read the blog post and article referenced below if you haven't already done so.

Essentially, a young woman was torn between allegiance to her dad and allegiance to her boyfriend. And she was asking us for advice.

I thought there was a lot of helpful discussion following my blog post, exploring issues of trust and privacy and maturity and such. But some of the comments on my blog post quickly assumed the worst about the young woman's father:

"He could also learn to show a little more grace. It sounds like he still resents the boyfriend's prior sins"
"her father's micromanagement"
"This to me seems completely inappropriate and bizarre"
"it looks like her father isn't really 'protecting' her so much as he is infantilizing her"
"she could ruin a wonderful thing with a wonderful man and continue an unhealthily controlling relationship with her father"
"the father is overly controlling"
"I think her father delving into her boyfriend's sexual history is a bit creepy"
"the father is really not interested in his daughter getting married, but would rather have her live at home forever"
"it sounds like that they have a codependent, enmeshed family"
"her parents' conditional and infantilizing love"
it sounds like a controlling, fundamentalist father with an iron fist on his firstborn daughter"
"This article shows exactly how this keeping daughters at home movement is hurting females. It sounds like these movements are not about helping daughters but more for making for power hungry patriarchs."

Ouch.

Being a father now, one who dearly loves his three pre-K daughters, it hurt to see such harsh words for a godly man who was doing the best he could to bless his daughter. I also felt that maybe we didn't have the whole story, so I asked the young woman who sent in the original question if she would send me her thoughts on the blog discussion. Here's what she had to say:

* * *

"Wow! Settle down, people!" That was my thought upon reading the flurry of comments on Ted's blog post.

The first thing I want to do is defend my dad. He is a wonderful, godly man, a devoted and loving father, and he truly wants what is best for me. He's not some creepy control freak who doesn't want me to ever get married — he has spent hours and hours in prayer for me and my future spouse. Iron fist? No way. I love, respect, and trust my dad.

John Thomas and Ted Slater are reading the situation rightly — I have an outstanding father who is worried about his daughter.

There is only so much one can say in a letter to an advice column, and it's hard to determine what is pertinent. Some readers have been making wild assumptions based on what I wrote. I certainly didn't mean to imply that I've lived a life of perfection and never disobeyed my parents in 27 years! My intent was to show how seriously I take my dad's advice and that I want to honor him.

And I do understand, at least a little, why he would be concerned. My position is that while his concerns may be valid, I don't think it's time to shut this down completely. Maybe we can talk this over and try to come to an agreement with a little give and take, and a little sympathy for the young man's side.

I have no intentions of destroying my relationship with my father over this. After all, I've known and trusted him for 27 years and I know he has my best interest at heart. I want God to be glorified in the outcome.

* * *

You're free to leave any kind of comment you'd like, but I'm especially interested in exploring the following here:

Why are we so quick to assume the worst about a father who seems to have a close, loving relationship with his daughter? Maybe we just don't see this enough, and when we do see it, it strikes us as oddly foreign, unrealistic, a fairy tale? And we recoil?
If a situation is ambiguous, why must we fill in the blanks, and then form strong opinions based on the assumptions we've made? Why can't we reserve opinion, or hold our opinions lightly, especially when we lack sufficient information to make an informed opinion?

I've invited the young woman who sent in the question to participate in this discussion. She's really busy, and will be without an internet connection for a few days, but she'll do her best to answer your questions and inject her own thoughts when she does get a chance.

Dating & Courtship | Mail This | Share on Facebook

Comments

You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

1. Tami said the following at 12:23 PM on May 6:

'Not Telling Dad' Daughter -- all the best to you. May God grant you wisdom and courage!

I also pray that this doesn't remain an "either-or" situation, but that God, in His mercy and wisdom, reveals the right path to all of you. And! That you all listen and obey :)

2. Ronnica said the following at 12:27 PM on May 6:

I think that part of the reason why we often assume the worst in someone such as the Dad in this case is that we've grown accustomed to the religious, controlling, possessive role that many modern shows and movies give to "Christians." That, coupled with the uncommonness of it all, helps us jump to unwarranted and unkind conclusions.

3. Craig M. said the following at 12:33 PM on May 6:

I think the core issue for most folks is that the father presumes to demand sexual information from the boyfriend, when his daughter is twenty-seven years old. Most Americans--including Christians--feel that by the age of twenty-seven, an adult ought to have established a significant degree of independence from her parents. Certainly the wise counsel of a concerned father should be welcomed, but the direct interposition of the father between his adult daughter and her boyfriend is regarded by many as inappropriate.

For my part, I think Christianity is pretty silent on this issue. The strong patriarchal model on display here isn't "wrong"; neither is the more egalitarian American perspective that an adult woman ought ultimately to be responsible for her own relational choices. But one can't avoid the reality that the patriarchal perspective--the idea that a father ought to directly impose his will on his adult daughter's prospective relationships--strongly implies a very significant subordination of women. That's not historically abnormal--for MOST of history in most cultures, adult women were presumed to need (somewhat like children though not exactly) a degree of meaningful authority and oversight by men.

The animus against this family is likely because most of us--including Christians--have pretty much rejected that presumption, for better or worse (I can see both great benefits and significant detriments). Let's face it, this father would be utterly average 150 years ago.

4. Louise from Chicago said the following at 12:40 PM on May 6:

I am one of the commentors who stated that the father appeared to be "overly controlling."

With all due respect, Mr. Slater, my chosen wording is not overly harsh given the details outlined in the original letter, nor is it a "wild assumption".

Now, I have never met the man in question, so my impression of him may be entirely incorrect, but I stand by my opinion it is valid conclusion based on the young woman's letter.

Now, I did NOT recommend that the young woman completely disregard her father.

I recall I agreed with another commentor who suggested meeting with a neutral counselor to arrive at a solution.

5. brx said the following at 12:42 PM on May 6:

Ted, you're so awesome!

1. Why are we so quick to assume the worst about...

I think it's because we are aware of our own depravity yet prideful and therefore aim to make others seem lower than ourselves - by showing they are in need of correction.

2. If a situation is ambiguous, why must we fill in the blanks, and then form strong opinions...

Oh, I don't know... why do you pick on Rob Bell and others who don't instantly appear to be exactly like you? I think in our weakness, our passions can easily be twisted toward sin.

Why did I jump to reply to your post so quickly? Hmmmmm...

I've come to believe that if a situation between two or more rational adults seems obviously wack, then there is likely some significant missing information or understanding.

Unassuming grace & peace :)

6. Jayme said the following at 12:56 PM on May 6:

I'm glad we got some updates. I've been mulling this over in my mind the last couple of days. I really thought people were harsh on the father.

In my mind, this woman and her parents decided to do this courtship thing. This man is willing to answer any questions to the father except for sexual questions? That's a red flag to me. It's saying: "I'm willing to answer any questions on the areas of my life that I have figured out, but for those areas that I don't have figured out, I won't answer to you." At least that's what he could be saying.

A comment in general: why do we deal with sexual sins so privately? Why is it that MUCH bigger deal to admit that you have slept with someone before than it is to admit that you have $50,000 in debt? Shouldn't you be repentent about both? Shouldn't both grieve you? Shouldn't you be hesitant to admit both? (Not that you wouldn't admit both if both were true, but shouldn't you feel sorry about having both to admit?) Both are sins. Yes, a sexual sin can have worse consequences, I guess. But we just treat it (sometimes) as the area of our lives that we don't want to confront. That we don't want to show grace to others on.

In this situation, this woman put her father in a position to judge any man who would court her. And now when he shows some hesitation (and it seems rightfully so), she wants to "undermine" him. Yes, in the end, it is her decision. But it's also her decision to let her father give her wisdom and direction in this situation - that decision she made when emotions weren't involved.

7. Irene M. said the following at 12:59 PM on May 6:

To the letter writer, thanks for the update! It's really difficult to read a situation when you don't know the person, so please take mine (and everyone else's thoughts) with a grain of salt. My apologies if it has caused you any pain. At any rate, I'm glad to hear that you have a good relationship with your father and wish the best of luck resolving this issue.

Mr. Slater, I haven't forgotten you. No worries. :-P I've got some theories and will be answering you later when I have some extra time.

8. brx said the following at 1:02 PM on May 6:

Ted, I was sincere when I said you're awesome.

It also appears the young lady has a good head on her shoulders. And with such a trusting and honest relationship with her father, she should be able calmly discuss the matter with him. Why should it not be as simple (if not awkward) as sitting down with him, asking thoughtful questions to understand his concerns and then responding thoughtfully (maybe at a later time) with her decision(s) and reasoning about how she will deal with or satisfy or not satisfy those concerns. That would be the escence of honoring her father.

One reason a potential mate may not wish to share STD test results with any but their significant other is because deep prejudices often do exist, even if subtley.

Grace & peace

9. Sylvia said the following at 1:12 PM on May 6:

The first thing that occurred to me when I read the comments along the lines of "at 27 years old she can think for herself" is that there are crazy divorce rates in this country even among people who do not marry young.

In my opinion, a girl can use all the help she can get from those who have her best interests at heart. We are talking about a lifelong covenant here. I don't think that it is insulting to women to say that it doesn't hurt to have people looking out for us when it comes to matters of the heart(not to mention lifelong commitments).

Frankly, we don't know this girl's fiancee to be a great guy any more than we know her father to be a tyrant. We just don't have the info. Maybe the father perceives some cause for concern (I'm not saying there is any...just wondering why we assume there isn't) It's not like past relationships NEVER cause trouble in future marriages...they can! It is a valid concern that needs to be addressed. In real life, there are a LOT of people who carry very harmful baggage into their marriages. I think that the people who deny this are the ones who are sheltered and naive.

The father does seem to have stumbled into inappropriate territory, but I think, for the most part, he is just acting like a father who believes that marriage is for life and would like to see his daughter have a happy life. No matter how old she is, he has seen more of life than she has! Just because he is capable of making a mistake, does not mean his input is invalid, or his help unnecessary.
I pray that the Lord will use this situation to strengthen their entire family.

10. Maggie said the following at 1:14 PM on May 6:

Hello,

While I do think some people were unduly harsh to the father, I think part of the issue (at least in this case) comes in the way the original letter is abriged. I don't mean to criticize anyone, as I'm sure it was necessary to cut the letter down to the basics for posting, both in the interests of brevity and personal privacy. That alone may account for John and Ted having a more thought-out response -- they had read the entire letter while the rest of us did not.

It may also be a semantic issue. The letter mentions that the father was asking "specific sexual questions". That was what led me and probably others to question the degree of the father's probing. When I hear that phrase, it puts me in mind of the type of questions that I'm asked each time I give blood, questions which, quite frankly, I only think are necessary for a doctor to ask. Even between future spouses, I think it's more beneficial in most cases (unless there is some kind of abuse, for example) to not to disclose specifics, so as not to call up any unnecessary mental imagery. For example: "I have sexual sin in my past. I am not a virgin. I have repented and have been walking with God for X years and I am willing to be tested for diseases." There is no need for more detail. Maybe I and others read that phrase wrongly, but to me it sounds like going through a checklist: "Have you done X? And what about Y?" I don't think that type of disclosure is appropriate or helpful. Remember, all sin is sin. Whether the guy has one or 1000 sexual sins in his past, if he's repented, it is all under the blood of Christ!

11. BDB said the following at 1:16 PM on May 6:

Not Telling Dad Daughter (NTDD) wrote:

>>My position is that while his concerns may be valid, I don't think it's time to shut this down completely. <<

I think I'm in essential agreement with this in my comments.

Question (#1): I tried not to assume the worst. In fact, since I know a few young people who ended up divorced with children after ignoring their parents warnings about their (short) marriage, I'm more inclined to advocate a pause and careful consideration of the objections.

Question (#2): We fill in the blanks based on our experience. It's often been the case when someone asked for my advice and they were too embarassed or fearful to come right out and say what was bothering them, they just alluded to it. Filling in the blanks allows us to be more specific about where we'd draw the boundaries.

The best example I can think of off hand is a book written by a major, popular Evangelical pastor. I was appalled in the first chapter, where he basically made it sound like it was OK for people to ditch their marriage if they weren't completely happy. That is absolutely contrary to scripture. It would have been far better to define what constitutes "abuse" for example, rather than suggesting that anytime someone in unhappy, they should simply walk out because any disagreement must be abuse.

My pastor has repeatedly talked about how men come to him for counseling, saying they want to leave their familiy to be happy - and their rationale sounds exactly like what's in this book. I honestly believe that this preacher will be called to account in the next life for teaching bad things that cause people to go astray.

12. Sylvia said the following at 1:24 PM on May 6:

#5 brx

In re, to #1,. I would tend to agree, but why do you think that we tend to assume the worst about the father but NOT so much about the fiance?

13. Stephanie said the following at 1:29 PM on May 6:

I wish I had the answers to the questions that Ted posed.

I do think that because we live in a society where all the negative and creepy things in society are highlighted in our media, we tend to think that a story (with ambiguities and possibly foreign concepts)probably has hidden meanings or hidden causes that might not be good...

Don't know if that made sense.

As for me, at first I questioned the dad, then I agreed that the girl needed to be careful, and finally I realized how blessed this girl is. My parent care for me deeply, but they never involve themselves deeply in my relationships (they probably would more so, except that I live away from home). Having just gone through a very painful breakup, I see how much could have been solved had my father or a mature mentor asked the right questions of the guy at the right times. As it is, my family has never been of the "courtship" mindset. I am now beginning to see what a blessing that could be (and the possible pain it could help prevent).

Anyway - these are just a couple of thoughts to toss out there!

14. Jag said the following at 1:33 PM on May 6:

1. Our culture has no sense of authority, except for a sense of its being a negative thing, especially for adults! The fact that the father is exercising his and that the daughter disagrees automatically (in the mind of our generation) makes him the wrong one.

2. Our lifestyle encourages us to spout whatever comes into our heads as quickly as we think it--twitter, facebook, this little comment box at the bottom of this blogpost. I doubt there is a single person reading this who has ever written a response to an article like this, set it aside, and reread it the following day before sending it. Perhaps we would do well to consider James' words to be "quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry." But we generally don't have time to consider much of anything these days.

15. Sarah P. said the following at 1:48 PM on May 6:

Ted, I really do think you are handling this wisely. I want to say that, because in the past I have disagreed with you on other issues, and so I want to be sure I mention positive impressions as well. :)

I didn't want to comment on the other thread, because I know my own knee-jerk reaction against parents who are overly controlling. I also have dear, gracious friends who are content with family situations very like this and who walk out their lives in a godly, humble way. When it comes down to it, after all, God doesn't promise us "self-actualization." North Korean Christians, for example, may never be "self-actualized." They may be executed instead. Yet God is still loving them.

What matters is living one day at a time and learning how to love the people wherever we find ourselves.

As for the people who say the father's behavior is "infantilizing," it seems to me that a bad marriage could be much, much worse. Now, however, I do think that after a certain point it is not my father's job to "protect" me from the risks -- both positive and negative -- of making my own decisions. We are always to "honor" our father and mother, no matter our age, if we are wise. However, only children need to "obey" their parents, and even then, only "in the Lord." A child doesn't have to obey an ungodly command, for example.

16. J. said the following at 1:50 PM on May 6:

In addition to the fact that a letter cannot offer a complete picture of a person's life, I'm assuming that *very few* commenters on The Line have a background similar to that of the woman who penned the letter and are therefore unable to relate.

It sounds like the woman doesn't work outside her home, but that may not be accurate. Another thing that jumped out at me: What about health insurance? At the age of 27, the woman is too old to be on her parents' policy (if they in fact have insurance), and jobs that offer health insurance are not exactly easy to come by for those who lack a college education. Is this something her parents cover for her under an individual policy, something which is expensive and definitely not realistic for most families? Aside from needing income to pay their bills, most singles need to work so they can have health insurance -- myself included. Is this something she is sacrificing for her family, and is it just expected that she will be insured once she marries?

17. Johanna said the following at 2:04 PM on May 6:

OH MY. I do understand this situation. I was through a similar dilemma some months ago and chose to follow my dad's advise not to go on with the relationship.

I did this essentially because I gave up my plans to God and asked for my parents to step up as my guides in my romantic decisions.

I'm happy today, although I was in the valley of death for about 6 weeks. My Lord restored me and conforted me. And I've seen God's plan in everything.

In the end, I'm so grateful to our Lord for parents!

18. P&P said the following at 2:04 PM on May 6:

In response to question one:

The letter reminded me of the novel "Washington Square," by Henry James. It's where the father opposes the courtship of his plain daughter to a handsome (and very poor) man. Its a fairly complex story and the father was right about the suitor, but he made his daughter miserable.

I saw some interesting paralells even though it looks to be sex over money.

2. I "jumped to a conclusion" because I have been an outsider in a very conservative community and I saw naive women become entrenched in relationships that they simply didn't understand, because no one had taught them about the perils of the world beyond their very closed community.

19. randy said the following at 2:09 PM on May 6:

Demanding the results of an STD test from the boyfriend of a 27 year old woman IS overly controlling. If he cannot trust that his daughter will look at the test herself and is able to read it, then the father should just go back to making her doll houses and brushing her hair. Being overprotective is not a positive trait in a father.

20. Diana said the following at 2:10 PM on May 6:

Sylvia (#12),

People made assumptions about the fiance, too. It's just that more of us read the letter and reasonably found the dad to be in the wrong. Then our imaginations fired up, and some posters started making less reasonable accusations. I don't think the dad got the worst of it just because he's the "dad." If the situation the woman wrote about had been different, then more people might have been talking bad about the fiance.

21. EJ said the following at 2:14 PM on May 6:

Hi J (#16)
Something that my family has utilized at times that we have been without health insurance is a Christian sharing health costs newsletter. You agree to pay a certain amount each month toward a specificed person's medical needs. If you run into a problem, other people help pay for you. Obviously I don't know what this family is doing:)

22. Kate said the following at 2:18 PM on May 6:

I think John Thomas gave good advice to this woman. But, a father who loves his daughter will want her to go to college, get a job, and get some time away from him. My father loves me, but he knows that I need to have my own life. This father is not helping his daughter become independent, but rather a dependent female who always relies on a man. This is not a bad thing all the time, but a female that is this dependent may attract the wrong type of guys.

23. BDB said the following at 2:26 PM on May 6:

Jag (#14) wrote:

>>I doubt there is a single person reading this who has ever written a response to an article like this, set it aside, and reread it the following day before sending it.<<

Well, I have. If there was a "save as draft" function I'd do it more. As it is, it's more likely for Ted to send me an e-mail saying, "You don't really want me to publish that, do you?" And I go re-write it to be less inflammatory...

24. Courtney P. said the following at 2:44 PM on May 6:

From what you have written about your father he said much like my father and very Godly loving man who prays and wants the best for his daughter. As the only child of my family at 21 my dad and I have many conversations about marriage.If your father does not get his questions answered is this a deal breaker? what if you boyfriend gives in and answers your father's question is this information going to be used against him? You and you father seem to have a great relationship I would pray that Christ would this to resolve this issue. Thank you for sharing your story.

25. Liz said the following at 2:53 PM on May 6:

Maybe I should have been more charitable toward the father in my post yesterday. In this case, it really does seem like he loves his daughter and wants what is best for her when it comes to marriage.

That said, I'm still sticking to my anwser that, at age 31, the potential boyfriend is well within his rights not to disclose medical test results and "specific sexual questions" with his potential girlfriend's father. By choosing not to share that information, it doesn't necessarily mean he has "something to hide;" maybe he just feels that information is incredibly personal, and that the girl's father should be able to judge his character without knowing the who, what, where, when, why of his sexual past.

26. brx said the following at 3:31 PM on May 6:

Re: Sylvia [#12],

...but why do you think that we tend to assume the worst about the father but NOT so much about the fiance?

my estimations:

first, the letter was written by the daughter and therefore tends to have a slightly more sympathetic tone towards herself;

second, most readers here are not fathers with eligible aged daughters but single people desiring marriage - thus they tend to identify and sympathize more with the daughter than the father;

third; we tend to feel like authority figures are more like obstacles when what we want seems to be on the other side of them.

We're fickle creatures much in need of God's transformative power.

Grace & adventure in that

27. Jo said the following at 4:04 PM on May 6:

BDB,
"As it is, it's more likely for Ted to send me an e-mail saying, "You don't really want me to publish that, do you?" And I go re-write it to be less inflammatory..."

Haha, does Ted really say that to you?! I can't imagine you being inflammatory...

28. Saidahwk said the following at 4:18 PM on May 6:

I wonder why it is that we are so opposed to adult children being submissive to their parents, particularly when unmarried and while living at home? And biblically, women ARE to be submissive. First to their father and then to their husband. Sorry.

29. Ted Slater said the following at 4:29 PM on May 6:

Question: How old was Isaac when he left his father Abraham's home? And what role did Abraham have in Isaac's "relationships"?

30. Craig M. said the following at 4:56 PM on May 6:

Careful about reaching moral/ethical conclusions from the practices of Abraham and Isaac. David had dozens or hundreds of wives and was yet regarded as a man after God's own heart. The courtship practices and authority structure of proto-Jewish tribesmen 4,000 to 5,000 years ago may be interesting, but they're not authoratative. There's no unassailable "Christian" answer to the question, "how much authority should a father have over his adult daughter?" There are only prudential answers, which have varied widely amongst Christians over 20 centuries.

Frankly, my own response to this family situation is informed mostly by the fact that this father and daughter were in apparent agreement that neither post-secondary education nor any pursuit of gainful employment was a wise use of the daughter's time from ages eighteen to twenty-seven. In most circumstances, a wise father who understands his daughter's desire for marriage and family should encourage one of those two paths--a woman has a better likelihood of meeting a suitable man while pursuing an education or employment than simply "waiting."

31. Tami said the following at 4:57 PM on May 6:

Some people think Isaac was in his 30's. And I don't think he ever really technically *left* Abraham's home, right?

32. Autum said the following at 5:00 PM on May 6:

Many good points have been made. This is a dimensional issue and we don't have the perspective of evaluating hearts and motives.

From my situation, twenty-five and with a distant father, I see her as blessed and privileged to have a father who cares so much. Maybe he is too-protective, and maybe not, but at least he's there, interested, and involved.

If he truly loves God and has her best interests at heart, I can't see this resolving poorly.

33. BDB said the following at 5:18 PM on May 6:

Ted (#29):

Isaac was 40. (See Genesis 25:20)

His father sent his servant to find Isaac a wife among his family back in the old country. The story is told in Genesis 24. He asked God for a specific sign - that the woman he asked for a drink would, on her own initiative, offer to water his camels also. She turned out to be related to Abraham.

So, the take-aways from the Bible are:

1) Wait until you're 40
2) Men shouldn't take initiative on their own
3) Ask God for a sign before stating your intentions
4) Let your servant make the actual approach.

I used to joke that I should ask my landscaper to find someone suitable. Then my landscaper started asking me why I wasn't married with this house and yard and pygmy palms...

By the way, the four items above are tongue-in-cheek; they might only work for wealthy bronze-age patriarchs... :D

34. BDB said the following at 5:23 PM on May 6:

Jo (#27) wrote:

>>Haha, does Ted really say that to you?! I can't imagine you being inflammatory...<<

Ted's a good editor.

Believe me, in my life, I've gotten myself into far more trouble with my writing than anything else I've ever done...

35. Kellie said the following at 5:34 PM on May 6:

Regarding #28: where in the bible does it state that adult daughters are to be submissive to their fathers? (No sarcasm here).

While we obviously still do not know the whole situation, I still stand by my comments on the other thread (and I'm a parent of a daughter....while I hope and pray that my husband and I raise her to be a Godly young lady, I would assume that once she is an adult she will make her own decisions. With advice from her parents, but not obedience...does that make sense? :-) )

36. Mark said the following at 6:10 PM on May 6:

Though I didn't respond originally, I think it's partly because we all tend to read our own experiences. Speaking for myself, when I first reead it, I could see both sides of the argument. But I know that for myself, as a single guy, I would like to be seen as an ally, not an enemy, of her family.

As to why people make those assumptions, people can only go off what they read. When more information becomes available, we will act off it, but until then, we can't do a lot of anything. Furthermore, I have seen situations like this where this goes both ways, both where the father knows best, and where the father does not. Just being the father does not, automatically, mean that he knows best, not in today's society (though it does regard him a great deal of honor). But by the same token, I've seen it the other way.

And in light of THAT, I think it's easier to see why people read into it the way they did.

37. J. said the following at 6:27 PM on May 6:

I believe Isaac was 40. When Abraham acknowledged he had a responsibility to help Isaac find a wife, he sent a trusted servant on a journey to find a suitable woman. Nothing is said about Abraham's needing final approval over Rebecca, but he did give the servant very specific instructions as to the kind of woman he should choose for his son.

I think we should resist trying to draw parallels between Isaac's situation and that of the woman who wrote the letter. First, Isaac and Rebekah were cousins. :-) Second, Isaac's leaving home and marrying at 40 was, it seems, due to Abraham's not fulfilling his responsibility as a father (something which the father at hand *is* trying to do) sooner. Besides, about 30 generations later, Joseph married Mary when they were *both* teenagers and by then this was normal for first marriages at that time. So I don't think the Isaac and Rebekah should be held up as an ideal.

38. Chris said the following at 7:29 PM on May 6:

I'm going to write this post to the woman who sent in the letter. Hopefully it will get past the editors.

For the moment, set aside my previous comments. I still stand by them, but I want to focus on what is (potentially) going through the mind of your suitor.

Your suitor has agreed to answer many questions from your father regarding faith, finances, etc. To be certain, these are important things. Any parent, father or mother, would be concerned that any child, son or daughter, is getting into a good marriage.

However, if your suitor is forced, cajoled, or convinced to divulge this sexual information (blood testing, specific sexual history, etc.) to your father, this act will always remain with your husband (should you marry him) or your former suitor (should the relationship not proceed).

Think about that. Think about it hard and long.

If you marry this man, part of your sexual life (yes, yours since it's now you and him) will be knowledge for your father. Any scars/issues/problems left by your future husband's past will not just be for you and him to know. Your father will know it too.

How will that make your future husband feel? How will he feel when he tries to be open and honest about his past?

Your husband will need a wife to help him through this past. How will he feel when he knows there's a man (your father) who also knows this stuff? Will he wonder if your father will tell your mother? Will he wonder if your father will bring it up 2, 5, 20 years from now?

I'm not talking about shame, forgiveness, and all that stuff. I'm talking about a man taking that first step, that first step of opening up to someone in confidence, someone he can trust, someone who knows that sometimes a man needs only one good woman to listen to him.

If this suitor is to be your husband, he needs to open up to you, his wife/future wife, about his sexual past. Men can't open to a group over coffee like women.

This man has already offered to discuss this stuff with you. That's big. Real big. If you drag your father into this, it will cause resentment, big time.

And these issues will be at play every time you have sex. They may not be consciously there, but they'll be there.

Think about all the possibilities. What if one of these former flings somehow comes back into life? Maybe she's a boss or coworker now. Maybe she's a friend on Facebook. Maybe she lives in the same neighborhood.

Your husband needs to know that you are comfortable with the situation or are confident in his fidelity. Do you really want to submit your husband to either a) the uneasy situation of having your father know all this stuff and wondering what your father thinks or b) the task of convincing your father that the old relationship is over and he's faithful? Your dad may be satisfied, but these thoughts will fester in your husband's mind.

Let me tell you something. I've told my wife some pretty personal things, as one would expect in a marriage. Things happy, things sad. I've done things, things that have made my wife happy, things that have hurt her deeply.

With one look, one word, one smile, she can tell me that the hurt is forgiven, the happy thing remembered. These are things between us and only us, and they go to the core of our relationship. And yes, some of them are sexual.

Those things are between us. If others knew about them, they would lose that uniqueness (for lack of a better word). You're not married, so I don't expect you to understand. Those who are know what I'm talking about.

Sexual matters, in my opinion, fall within this realm. Having them reviewed by others or made known outside the marriage bed, cheapen them and diminish the relationship.

Your future potential husband has taken a brave step by both offering to discuss these things with you while keeping them between future husband and wife.

Please, please don't throw that away by divulging blood tests to your father. Have your concerns answered by your suitor. Let your future husband know that he has satisfied your concerns and that you still want to marry him. Take your father's advice, to be sure, but please don't reduce the wonderfulness of sexual love to a blood test to be divulged to your father.

Your future husband will think the world of you if you stand up and tell your father that you will consider his advice but sexual matters are between you and your future husband. And if your suitor doesn't do this, he's a chump. Dump him and move on to someone else.

39. Ted Slater said the following at 8:40 PM on May 6:

Craig M. (#30) -- surely you're not saying that Scripture is irrelevant here, that we're unable to identify any lasting principles from the Old Testament? Surely you concur that "all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"?

The reason I brought up Isaac is to give an example of someone who "stayed at home" well into his adult years, and Scripture doesn't indicate that there's anything wrong with that. So we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss adults who choose to stay in their parents' home well into their adult years.

I mentioned Isaac's father, Abraham, as an example that it's not necessarily wrong, biblically speaking, for a parent to have some involvement in their adult son's or daughter's pre-marital relationships. Abraham took primary responsibility for bringing Isaac and Rebekah together; if that wasn't wrong, then it's not necessarily wrong for a parent to have a hand in their son's or daughter's relationships, even if they're well into their adult years.

A lot of commenters are implying that a 27-year-old woman should refuse her father's involvement in her relationship. That's not a biblically defensible position.

40. Ted Slater said the following at 8:57 PM on May 6:

J. (#37) -- I'm not drawing any "parallels" between the woman who wrote this question and Isaac; that can lend itself too easily to proof-texting. I'm drawing principles from Isaac's situation that have some relevance to this young woman's situation.

You wrote that "Joseph married Mary when they were *both* teenagers." It's likely that Joseph was in fact much older than Mary, in his 20s or 30s.

Again, I'm not setting Isaac and Rebekah up as an ideal. I'm drawing certain simple principles from their story that are applicable today.

41. J. said the following at 9:31 PM on May 6:

Hmmm...I was taught that Joseph, though probably a bit older than Mary, was a teenager when they married.

However, I just read about another possibility: that Joseph may have been much older than Mary and a widower who already had several children to boot. *If* this is actually the case, it's still different from Isaac and Rebekah's marriage in that Mary was not Joseph's first wife.

Moving on... :-)

42. Sylvia said the following at 9:53 PM on May 6:

I'd like to see scripture supporting the assertion that it is necessary for a father to send his daughter to college and allow her to hold a job. These are things which have become a common part of the American experience, but so what? Assuming that the father is not provoking his daughter to wrath by denying her these things when she feels called to do them, or just to be a bully, what is he doing that is unbiblical?

College is expensive, and I think that forgoing student loan debt is a wise decision for those whose aspirations are elsewhere.

Also, while it is common and expected for young women to hold jobs, I think that there is something to be said for appreciating the distinct role of a woman to such a degree that she is allowed to serve at home without being expected to act as a "career woman" until a man snatches he up and gives her a baby to to take care of.

Personally, I lost my father as a child, and I did take out loans to go to college. It was the right choice for me, and God was faithful, but I can really appreciate where others are coming from in their conviction to do otherwise.

Is there room in the body of Christ for such diverging convictions in these areas? It's hard, I think, because one decision being right tends to make those who chose another feel guilty, but I think we need to move past our insecurities and not make judgments of others that are not based on the Bible. As Jesus said to Peter, when he inquired about John, "You follow me."

43. Ted Slater said the following at 10:32 PM on May 6:

J. (#41) -- it's tempting to speculate, but Scripture says nothing about Joseph having ever been married before, or of having children by another wife.

I don't think there's any reason to even flirt with such a notion. Let's just stick with what Scripture *does* say, and not develop theories and doctrines based on speculation. That's dangerous ground.

44. Ted Slater said the following at 10:40 PM on May 6:

Sylvia (#42) -- you challenge the notion that it's a father's responsibility to see his daughter go to college and pursue a career.

I agree with you, and want to point out the underlying assumption, which is wrong, that "you can only become educated in college, which costs a lot of money." I know plenty of people who never paid a dime for college, who never attended university, who are sufficiently educated. The first example is author and senior pastor Joshua Harris. Indeed, he doesn't even have a stinking high school diploma!

I affirm formal education (I've earned two master's degrees and two bachelor's degrees; my wife also has a master's degree). But one does not have to go to school, and consequently take on burdensome debt, in order to become "educated."

You wrote, "College is expensive, and I think that forgoing student loan debt is a wise decision for those whose aspirations are elsewhere." TOTALLY agree. Thank you for stating that so clearly.

And note that the young woman in question said she doesn't plan to have a career. She's never said that she doesn't have a job. I'm not sure, to be honest, if she works outside the home for money or not.

45. Emily said the following at 11:14 PM on May 6:

I come from a family and culture similar to the one that is being discussed here and I am also a single woman of similar age.

First, I would like to say that John Thomas answered the question with incredible wisdom and grace towards all parties.

I believe the culture I grew up (as the letter illustrated) in operates in a different paradigm that is often incompatible with mainstream Biblical christianity, and from the commenters, strange and wacky. And I use biblical because as an adult who has searched the scriptures, I cannot find scriptural basis for the "daughters at home serving their father" movement, nor for strict courtship guidelines. These are extra-Biblical restrictions and formulas that have created a certain type of sub-set thought and culture within Christianity.

That being said, if families feel God calling them to live this way, then so be it. If an adult daughter wants this much intrusion from her father, that is her choice and consequences (mostly positive, maybe some negative) will result.

In my most recent relationship with a young man I shared some concerning very personal things about the man I was dating with my parents. But I did not use details. If we were to get married someday I felt it inappropriate and something I wanted to "cover" with righteous relationship. (Prov 12:10. If Jesus sees him as a new creature, and we would get married some day, to discuss those things with parents seems to me to defile the marriage bed and vault the shameful past of the partners in question(and who knows if siblings and friends of parents would find out!) I thought about it in light of wisdom and scripture and character. My parents taught me to look at life that way. The old self is faded away and a Pastor needs to deal with his past, not a girls father. Remember, there is so much shame, overbearing shame and embarrassment....have compassion.

And you know what? I know God gave me desires for good things - righteous relationship - the best things - and I broke up with the guy I mentioned because of scripture, character, and some repentance issues.

Did my father give much needed and wanted advice? Sure! But in the end it was the conviction of the Holy Spirit in ME, not my father.

46. BDB said the following at 11:36 PM on May 6:

As for the girls going to college question, that's because the structure of the economy has changed from manual labor to knowledge work.

Biblical examples from Rebekah in Genesis 24 to Ruth show women working, working, working. Women have always worked. The American abberation is this idea that women don't need to work. It's possible only in very wealthy societies. Everywhere else in the world, every other time period, women were expected to work.

Typically, their work was such that their children could be nearby. Elisabeth Elliot has an excellent devotional relating about her daughter growing up with the Indian tribes. The CHIDLREN were working - they could gather food, catch fish, even do some hunting. There was play mixed in, but their play resembled work.

While I fully agree that avoiding student loans is wise, I definitely think that it's a lot more Biblical for women to expect to work, and work hard.

Maybe if I was a rich bronze-age patriarch, I could afford the luxury of supporting people who didn't work. Of course, that meant the servants were working, so SOME women were working, even if those at the top of the pyramid were not.

47. BDB said the following at 12:04 AM on May 7:

I suppose I should disclose that in my family, everyone works. From time to time my 92-year-old Christian grandmother comments on some woman who ought to be working so her husband isn't taking the full burden. She's not saying this about moms with small children, but often those whose children are grown. She's always worked - as a nurse beginning in WWII and continued as a nurse and on the farm.

She also has a pretty powerful personality. If I ever introduced a woman to her who didn't plan to work, she'd give that girl a talking-to. And if that woman's dad was around, she'd give him a piece of her mind, too.

And, there's an 90% chance she'd get that guy back on his number, believe you me. Did I mention she used to lobby the state legislature on education issues? She and my grandfather started lobbying in the 1940's - not as paid lobbyists, but as passionate citizens. Whipped those boys into shape, she did.

This is why my sister and I both have multiple graduate degrees...my sister in a field very compatible with motherhood (audiology.)

48. J. said the following at 12:22 AM on May 7:

Ted (#43), I'm certainly not trying to develop theories and doctrines about Joseph's age at the time he married Mary and whether he had been widowed, and I recognize that you aren't, either.

Can you provide sources for your belief that Joseph was significantly older than Mary when they married, the question of his former marital status and whether he already had children aside?

I ultimately don't think this issue is worthy of further discussion here. As I wrote in one of my comments above: "Moving on..." :-)

49. Mike Theemling said the following at 3:17 AM on May 7:

When I read the original post and replied, my concern wasn't so much on the question itself that the father asked (e.g. sexual past, asked to get tested for STDs, etc) as each person/family/culture has a certain comfort level with such issues, but the fact that father did not trust the daughter to tell the truth about any red flags and wanted to see the results for himself.

To me that simply says, "I don't trust you to make good decisions regarding suitors". I would hope that a 27 year old Christian woman raised in a good Christian home would be able to identify any red flags and have the courage talk with her family about it.

As to Ted's second question, we are filling in the blanks in this particular situation first of all because the question was posed to us (either directly to John Thomas or to the masses via the blog post). Secondly, as others have stated there a lot of unknowns. But not knowing everything does not mean we shouldn't try and make some reasonable assumptions given in order to make an informed decision. Some assumptions of course may be more prone to stereotyping than others (e.g. assuming living 27 years at home implies a "sheltered" life and a dysfunctional family).

If you were to imply that in this situation that we shouldn't give commentary because we "don't have all the details" then what makes John or Candice qualified to answer other questions which have also lacked detail?

50. diana said the following at 6:58 AM on May 7:

The dialogue has been fascinating. So many excellent points have been made. I'd just like to add that I sure wish I'd had a father's input...I would have at least felt that he really cared. Also, maybe this dad knows that with her virginal past and the suitor's non-virginal past, that it will make for some undeserved pain on her part. I married as a virgin to a non-virgin, and though I've forgiven that sin that happened before I ever came into the picture, I really can't forget it. It crops up to haunt me; and I wish we'd gotten counseling before marriage.

Hopefully, if nothing else, the controversy the young lady is having right now will at least allow them more time to make the best decision; time to work through it and let her work through the emotions too. It's easy before marriage to think "oh, I'm over the fact that he's not a virgin. It won't bother me." But, without being properly dealt with beforehand, it may cause real problems later.

51. Tiff said the following at 7:12 AM on May 7:

I wish someone would address the question above, about where in the bible it says that women are to be submissive to their fathers, any more than sons are? All children are commanded to honor their parents. Where does it state that women need to be submissive to their fathers beyond that?

52. IMO said the following at 8:04 AM on May 7:

Chris, I really like your post. Hopefully this woman will think about what you said.

53. Marie said the following at 8:29 AM on May 7:

Coming at this from another perspective...
I have seen the horrible amount of pain and feeling of betrayal in more than one female friends life by unresolved sexual sin in their fiance's, then husbands life that may have been avoidable had somebody asked the questions and probed a little deeper, rather than just settled for "I have sexual sin in the past." Not to judge them for it, but to be a voice calling to repentence and accountability.
I know that for me, it is normal for me to "waffle" a little and not want to talk about sin that is maybe confessed, but still a huge temptation or something that I have recently fallen into.
But if God has given me victory, I can shout it from the rooftops.
And anyways, how is a virgin woman to really know what questions to ask? And how appropriate is it for them to really discuss specific sexual things prior to marriage? I know that goes counter-cultural, but frankly I'd be happy for a father to address those questions for me. I'm not a prude, nor a sexual innocent, but I would like to keep some of my modesty prior to marriage.

54. cn said the following at 8:39 AM on May 7:

In reference to Ted's question #1, my husband notes that John Thomas's article did seem to have a slant against the girl's dad.

Maybe that spurred on some of the comments?

55. Ted Slater said the following at 8:45 AM on May 7:

cn (#54) -- I think I'd agree with your husband. Perhaps to counter John's take on this situation, my blog post tends to favor the girl's dad. You can see that in the title I gave both the article and these blog posts, and in some of the phrases I used in the original blog post to "spin" the situation.

I think folks tends to challenge whatever I say, so they challenge my slight deference to the young woman's father. If I had had more of a slant against the father, I suspect the comments would tend more to come to his defense.

Just the nature of online communication, I think.

56. Autumn J said the following at 9:10 AM on May 7:

I've talked to my parent's about my boyfriend's past, but only just the basics, no details. I did this because I felt like I could benefit from their counsel. My dad and my boyfriend have similar pasts, as do my mom and I. I was honestly at a loss as to how to get past his sexual sin. Forgiveness isn't the problem, I don't hold any of it against him at all. I just wasn't entirely sure how to put it behind us so we could move on. My parents provided me with some very helpful advice an insight. So, I can see the benefit in telling your parents some things, just not every little detail.

57. Craig M. said the following at 9:12 AM on May 7:

I don't think anyone has suggested that this family's choices, as presented, are "biblically wrong." I sure haven't. The argument is that they are imprudent and unnecessary.

And people need to stop trying to draw these direct parallels between the social mores of bronze age patriarchs and the modern world, as though God is endorsing the "old ways" simply because they are portrayed in scripture. Abraham and Isaac and David and Solomon, etc., practiced (massive) polygamy, treated women as property, kept concubines, and were able to provide leisure for their wives due to the labor of many servants and slaves. If you're going to make the sort of one-for-one analogy that Ted tries above--"Isaac lived at home for a long time, so that's a good family model," then you have to explain why that particular biblical portrayal of bronze-age culture is an endorsement but not everything else scripture portrays.

58. Ted Slater said the following at 9:27 AM on May 7:

Watch it, Craig M. (#57). It's not cool to misrepresent the editor of Boundless on the Boundless blog.

I have never said, as you quote, "Isaac lived at home for a long time, so that's a good family model." And I *specifically* said that it is dangerous to draw "direct parallels" between OT people and post-modern Westerners (see my comment #40).

I ask you again: Surely you're not saying that Scripture is irrelevant here, that we're unable to identify any lasting principles from the Old Testament? Surely you concur that "all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"?

Are you really dismissing the work of God among people of other cultures, just because in some ways these cultures are so foreign from ours? Do you really believe there's nothing we can learn about God's ways by evaluating how He's interacted with people throughout the millennia?

Surely you don't have such a low estimation of Scripture.

59. Philip said the following at 10:06 AM on May 7:

This situation is very similar to my past. I was the older man with the wild past and my wife was the mid-20's lady who had never had a relationship before. Her family was very protective of her and it was a real struggle to work through the issues they created but it was totally worth it in the end.

The #1 piece of advice I can offer is to be patient. Your father is trying to figure out how to handle this as well as he can and he might need some time to figure things out. Until then, keep the lines of communication open. Have your friend answer the questions that he feels are appropriate and give them to your father anyway. Showing grace and patience to your parents will help them feel more comfortable that you and this young man have the maturity to move forward with your relationship.

Also, while I agree that your friend is perfectly within his rights to refuse to share the test results with your father, he might consider doing it anyway. I wouldn't recommend that he discuss specific sexual acts with your father but the test results are (probably) harmless enough that it's not something I'd be willing to "fall on my sword" for. It's just not worth it, especially if he wants to develop a positive relationship with your parents.

60. Craig M. said the following at 10:07 AM on May 7:

Ted--I don't know what your point is. I already said explicitly that the family's choices, as presented, are not "biblically wrong." There's no discernable principle derived from scripture that says people shouldn't live with their parents into their twenties or thirties or that fathers shouldn't be deeply involved in the personal lives of their daughters. There's also nothing in these stories that indicates that this sort of structure is to be generally preferred.

I'm not dismissing God's work at all--God has worked through social institutions of great diversity. Does anyone think that God never worked through slavery? Of course He did. That doesn't mean Christians ought to be supportive of slavery.

I don't think I did misrepresent anyone. I was paraphrasing, not quoting. If that didn't come across clearly, I apologize.

61. Jeremy said the following at 10:48 AM on May 7:

"Surely you're not saying that Scripture is irrelevant here, that we're unable to identify any lasting principles from the Old Testament?"

I don't see him saying that at all, I think he is just cautioning care in which principles we draw. Polygamy was wide-spread in Israel and never addressed by God, can we draw from that the principle that it is acceptable? (actually I find that a rather difficult question, along the same lines as slavery) The point is that taking specifics of a historical account, whether it be the "principle" that polygamy is approved by God or the "principle" that living at home into adulthood is approved by God, needs to be done carefully. Much of the OT is the record of actions, and it is dangerous to assume that all of those actions are models for us.

62. JuliestD said the following at 11:48 AM on May 7:

I'm glad that the writer isn't going through what I am.

But honestly, it makes me sad. My fiance didn't even have any "past" and my father was completely against me marrying him. This just reiterates to me what my clergy and counselor have told me: that my family is totally abnormal and therefore that I am again, alone in my pain.

I didn't mean to "assume the worst" about the writer, her father, etc.

Please understand -- I am just living "the worst" -- it isn't a strange situation to me. My dad pulled out all the support from under me at the one moment I chose something for myself. I understand Ted your feelings about fatherhood, and I hope that all little girls can have fathers like you.

It seems that I am possibly the only one who doesn't, short of girls whose fathers completely abandon them as children, or molest them, etc.

All best to the writer. I hope that all things will work together in your situation for greater harmony in your family, regardless of what decisions you and your friend make in your romantic relationship.

63. BDB said the following at 12:15 PM on May 7:

Incidentally, if the guy in question is serious about this girl, he ought to go get tested. If the results are negative, he might not object so much about sharing the results.

If the results are positive, he needs to get treatment (if available) or at least have a plan to explain what is required.

Personally, I've noticed that 100% of people have medical issues over the course of their lifetime. It's important to understand how they handle a medical challenge. It's heartbreaking when someone refuses to follow doctor's instructions and destroys themself by being stubborn.

64. brx said the following at 1:15 PM on May 7:

Chris [#38] explained some VERY good points about getting too detailed in confession to certain people.

Some things are too intimate to comfortably share with a direct relative (but not all things). For example, even if they are the best in the field, you probably will never feel comfortable letting an in-law be your proctologist or gynecologist.

That being said, I seriously think men ought to rise and challenge these two statements you made:

Men can't open to a group over coffee like women.

...sometimes a man needs only one good woman to listen to him.

That men (myself included) tend to find those statements true in experience, I think says much about men seeking their identity in the comfort of women instead of in the assurance of Christ. Those statements indicate the weaknesses that led David and Solomon to keep many wives and concubines (which was AGAINST the guidelines God gave for Kings of Israel and became a significant entanglement to both of them).

While it is wise to use care in choosing who to talk candidly with, it's FIRMLY advised in many ways throughout the Bible, that men should sharpen each other - as iron sharpens iron, and that we should confess our sins to each other - that we may be healed.

This sharpening and healing doesn't happen by merely meeting with guys from church to memorize Bible verses and talk about sports over coffee. It happens while seeking and walking out the challenge of authentic Christian discipleship.

That many church leaders are stumbling and falling in adultery and other deep entanglements is evidence that authentic, challenging discipleship is not occuring enough in many churches. Instead, they are looking for their comfort of acceptance in women or other pleasures.

BTW, ladies, I'm not saying that women aren't wonderful, equal co-heirs in Christ with men, but that our identity and security must be firmly set in Christ rather than each other.

Grace, peace & adventure is in Christ's challenge!

65. brx said the following at 1:20 PM on May 7:

'leaving and cleaving'

is a process rather than an instant change of status. I think the leaving begins by starting to take on responsibility to make one's own life decisions. That's NOT to say these decisions should be without tactful respect and regard for the concerns of others (esp. caring parents). Being tactful is about guarding the sensitivity of others, not only that of a caring father but also of a potential mate.

Being tactful is often being loving. It's asking 'how do I address this seeming conflict of concerns without offending or at least minimizing offense to all parties?

Prayer, grace & peace in awkward confrontations

66. Mark said the following at 3:14 PM on May 7:

I'm pondering how much the responses here would change if the gender roles were reversed where it was the guy that had a pure history and the girl who had a sexual past and his parents were speaking up. My guess is things would change quite a bit. If his parents wanted to know more about her history and whether or not she had an STD, etc...it'd be interesting to see the results.

67. Mrs. Spit said the following at 3:43 PM on May 7:

I have to confess, Mark (#66) hit on something I wondered. What if it was a woman with a sexual past?

What if his parents wanted a woman to prove that there was no reason that she couldn't get pregnant and carry a pregnancy? Infertility can be the result of STI's.

I wonder how many would be willing to suggest that a woman in this place would be quite within her rights to kindly but firmly tell them to butt out.

68. Phoebe said the following at 10:55 PM on May 7:

Great points in the post, Ted. As I think about it as a girl from a similar background to this girl, who else than my father would I want to talk to my boyfriend about some of the sexual issues of his past? But only if my father had the grace to know how far to go. I think that's the problem here.

69. BDB said the following at 11:36 PM on May 7:

#66 & #67 - Well, you're assuming that the woman hasn't already told the guy she's afraid she'll never have children. I've been surprised a few times by women blurting that out. (Probably while crying.)

That's actually a little bit why this situation seemed amiss. It sounded like dad was asking questions daughter didn't already know the answers to. Maybe that's what happens in the "courting" model.

That said, since were assuming the guy is doing the pursuing thing, these kinds of discussions may be where the guy has to learn to set boundaries with his parents to keep them from becoming the kind of inlaws that destroy his marriage.

If the guy is 31, hopefully he's been financially independent from his parents for, say 9 years since college. Becoming financialy independent usually involves setting some of those boundaries, such as making it clear to the parents that you are financially independent and they no longer have any say in how the son spends the money he earns himself.

I'm not saying the parents will enjoy that process if they're trying to hold on. But by the time he's 31, it ought to be complete.

Or else she will have bigger things to worry about.

70. Sylvia said the following at 11:38 PM on May 7:

A couple of people wanted to know where it says in scripture that a young woman must live at home under the authority of her father. While this may be an interesting conversation to have with some people, the burden here is on those who judge this choice as being wrong. The woman who wrote the letter DID NOT say that the Bible instructed all woman to do as she has done. She said that she believed it to be God's calling for her.

Think about it folks, If I said that I had determined that God was leading me to move to Pakistan, or buy a pickup truck, or fast during the first week of June, would I not be free to do so unless I could find specific scriptures mentioning Pakistan or pickup trucks? Of course not!
Rather I would be free to do so unless could be determined, based on scripture, that such activities were wrong.

I really think that we as Christians need to be open to the idea that other Christians can have lives, convictions and abilities radically different from our own. We need to get over our image of the ideal Christian life, and over our petty jealousies and insecurities that cause us to condemn other believers according the the flesh.

71. Elisabeth said the following at 9:06 AM on May 8:

#38 said exactly what was on my mind as a married woman. There are things between a husband and a wife which are sacred between those two people. I would be highly uncomfortable if my parents or in-laws knew about specific sexual intimacies that happened before marriage. I know they aren't married yet, but it seems that both the man and woman intend to have the relationship progress to marriage. And once married, this issue certainly will rear its head again.

Engaging in courtship means that your potential relationship is open to scrutiny, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things that should remain private. I don't know I would say the father of this Boundless reader is overly controlling, but I would say that he has stepped across a boundary line.

Parents do make mistakes, sometimes out of love and genuine concern (I know I do!!). But that doesn't make them right.

72. Elisabeth K said the following at 9:46 AM on May 8:

I married an older man who was previously married twice and lived quite a wild life before coming to know the Lord sometime into his second marriage. I never asked about his previous sexual encounters. I trusted that since he got saved he was pure. He knew that I was a virgin when we got married. He agreed to testing and that was all there was to it. My parents never questioned him.
Now we've been married almost two blessed years and the past has never become a stumbling block. There were some discussions early on with no specifics involved, but that was the extent of it. We've both focused on each other and left the past where it belongs--in the past.

73. Cati said the following at 10:38 AM on May 8:

My husband had a crazy past before Jesus sought him out, saved him and redeemed his broken history. My parents knew his story and had the ability to withhold support of the relationship if they wanted, but they truly believed that if God is sovereign over all things, He will carry us, as Christians, through whatever would come to pass.

If I had not married him, my gut says that I would have sadly missed out on some beautiful and intimate spiritual growth AND I would have missed out on the incredible love that comes from a man who understands freedom, grace and redemption so deeply.

Sidenote: While courting me, my husband did get involved with a mentoring relationship with a pastor at our church and was very honest with him about his past. This pastoral involvement gave my parents a great peace about where our relationship was going and it allowed for there to be some appropriate privacy in our relationship.

74. Lauren T. said the following at 12:14 PM on May 9:

I have an almost identical history to the original questioner. I am nearly 27 myself, have been homeschooled, and did not go to college. I am also the oldest of 8 with the attendant uncertainty that comes with being "first". I'm going to have to forgo answering comments because there's just too much to cover...

To the original questioner, do I ever have sympathy! It's not a fun situation, but you've got one major advantage. You have two men who believe in God and appear to want to do what's right. Have confidence in that whatever else you end up doing next.

Your Dad: you said yourself he's a good and Godly man. Unlike a scary percentage of people who've commented, I don't believe he's automatically "over-controlling" based on his reaction. Some questions: Do you fully understand why he shut down communication? Was it really the answers? Was it just that he just can't reconcile his picture of your future husband with this man? Why is that? Is it just the answers or is there something deeper he's sensing but can't quite articulate? Are you clear-headed enough to assess what he's done or do you have that nasty clench in the gut that everything's gone wrong here and you're not sure why Dad can't just work this out?

(Me, if I was really interested in someone at this point and he was interested enough to come asking, it would feel pretty dreadful to have Dad respond this way. It might be difficult to talk to him reasonably and find out what's really going on)

Your friend: you also said the man you're interested is a good and Godly man. I can understand his point of view depending on what questions your father asked him and I think how he reacts in the next days and weeks as you attempt to sort this out will be a major indication as to what his heart is really like. How did he respond to your Dad's response? Do you know what his attitude toward it is now? Is he patient with it? Does he understand your father and his perspective? Does he honor your father to you? Did he honor your father with his response, meaning was he truly thoughtful and concerned about what was best for all parties? (It sounds like it, but I recognize that there are two sides to every story and you are the only one who can really honestly assess this...)

You want to marry a man who's first goal is to glorify God no matter what the circumstances. That's the ultimate goal, right? That's a man you can be confident in, no matter what his past. Your greatest challenge is going to be ascertaining if that's true about him, no matter what the eventual outcome of the current problem.

So now you have some unpleasant circumstances. It's a time for all of you to "show your quality".

In some ways, this may be a perfect window into how a man you're considering marrying may respond in the future. You have a great opportunity to gain some insight, as hard as it may feel emotionally at the moment. If you all come through this, there's the potential for you all to be confident in each other in a way few people ever reach.

If both men really are following God, both of them will want what God wants and want to take care of you.

In two situations where I have considered getting to know someone for marriage, I've prayed earnestly that if the situation was not what God wanted he would make it crystal clear to both me and to my parents. If my Dad were to have a reaction like this, I would see it as a serious red flag.

BUT!

But I wouldn't let go of the situation until I had followed Dad around and talked it to death. I would want to know from Dad EXACTLY what caused him to shut down, from the perspective that I want to know what Dad saw after I didn't see it.

Your dad's seen something. You need to know in your heart and soul exactly what he saw and what conclusions he's drawn from it.

Dad's never had a list of questions to ask. A list seems like a good solid way to get a feel for someone, but one of the severe drawbacks of it is exactly what's happened here: the answer doesn't fit what the Dad expects to be good, so the young man's heart, character, and life-philosophy may be overlooked. You need to find out if that's true or if the man's heart did show through and your dad doesn't know how to communicate that to you.

I think that may actually be what Mr. Thomas suggested. His advice points that way, although I think he may be edging toward thinking your dad was unreasonable also.

I'll be thinking of and praying for you!

75. Nicole said the following at 1:17 PM on May 10:

There has been a lot of advice given here and yet I am still compelled to add my thoughts/questions to this...

A few questions to the young lady: Do you trust your Father or not? If you do, as you've stated, why are you in resistance to what he is wanting? Do you think he has HIS or YOUR best interest in mind? Is he a selfish father, never wanting you to leave home and serve them forever or does he desire your happiness and joy in a perfect and loving, covenant relationship with God's best?

Sounds like you have some tough choices before you...don't let pride creep in and take the place of the love, honor and respect you have shown to have for your father. Honestly, I think your father has every right to ask ANYTHING of the young man that would be interested in one of his most cherished possessions.

I will be praying that the Lord will bestow the wisdom of Solomon upon you and that you would be able to have clear vision in this most important decision....take off the rose colored glasses and save them for AFTER the vows have been taken!!!

76. Candice Watters said the following at 4:15 PM on May 13:

In doing my search for great content for the Girl's Guide, I rediscovered this post from 2007 by Motte. http://www.boundlessline.org/2007/04/responding_like.html

It speaks directly to the issue of a father's role in vetting a potential future husband for his daughter, as well as the man's responsibility to be a man and answer him.

77. Thomas Jeffries said the following at 7:05 PM on May 18:

Catching up on this topic and all the follow-up comments, I can't help but recall a post of mine from a few months back: "Leaving Your (Sexual) Past Behind."

In that post, I referenced the wise advice I received from my pastor back when my wife and I were dating. (Needless to say, much the same advice appears in Focus on the Family's "Complete Guide to the First Five Years of Marriage.") In short, Focus' counseling staff states that, "In the name of honesty, some people give their spouses too much information about past and present sinful actions and thoughts."

Indeed, in the situation being discussed here, it was important for the man to demonstrate honesty by acknowledging his past, but what good does it really do for the woman's father to know detailed information about sexual experiences dating back seven years or more? If the man in question is now a mature, repentant believer who is willing to be tested for STIs and who left his past behind long ago, then what is accomplished by revisiting the details of past sins, especially with an in-law who could one day use that information against him?

As the Focus "Complete Guide" also states, "Scripture directs us to honor parents.... Obeying parents, however, is clearly time-limited." It appears that the suitor in question is trying within reason to honor the woman's father, but he wants to do so without sacrificing his self-respect in the process.

To admit one's past mistakes -- sexual or otherwise -- is to be a man. But to provide details about them to your (potential) father-in-law is rarely of benefit to anyone involved.

78. JMK said the following at 5:24 AM on May 21:

I am also a young woman from a similar back round as the girl who wrote the post. However, I am now married. I would like to say that if your dad has a caution then I would find out why. Remember, marriage is for life. I did see that you said that your boyfriend shared things with you and that was enough... Do you know what that might mean for your future? You have been protected, I hope, and are pure... you may have no idea of what it all really means! Just because you are 27 doesn't mean you know everything. I had a friend similar in age to you... yet she wanted to get married more than anything else and now, just two years later, I think she sees that she missed out on the best. Now she needs to make the best of the not-so-good and sometimes hard situation. If this guy does have a history of sexual struggles then they most likely will affect you. Marriage can bring flash backs and trouble even to the guy who is a Christian. It can affect you. Are you ready for that?

I had my parents full blessing for my marriage. I knew it was God's will for me and they knew too. This is important for any rocky places that we might face in the future. I have no doubt that I am where God wanted me. I will be able to say even if the worst thing imaginable happens, "This was God's will. This was in His plan for me to make me more like Himself."

79. JMK said the following at 5:47 AM on May 21:

PS. I am not sure if the 27 year old has been sheltered.. I didn't want to make it sound that way.. but I know that many homeschooled children are sheltered... maybe it is not totally bad but I see that they have no idea what the dark side of sin can bring... and they only know about the lights and glimmer... The problem in a case like this is that the girl might have no idea what she might have to face and her father might "feel" something. Enough said.

80. Dr Ed said the following at 8:12 PM on May 21:

Let me offer a brief medical consultation:

As a physician, I care for women of all ages suffering from serious consequences of sexually transmitted diseases. I see them almost every day. Each and every day.

And those diseases were usually transmitted from men.

Venereal diseases can affect the woman, her ability to become pregnant and the health of their children.

Altho syphilis has been increasing for the past 7 years, chlamydia and gonorrhea are more frequent, infecting over 3 million men and women per year.

These diseases may cause years of chronic pelvic pain. However, the most devastating effects are frequent infertility and tubal pregnancy - complications that commonly follow VD infection or abortion.

Given these consequences for the family as well as the woman, a compassionate father has a duty to counsel her. And a case can be made, from a generational perspective, for his request to review the results. Most fathers want to become grandfathers.

In men, many VD infections do not cause symptoms. They may not know they have a disease they can pass on. That is why testing is necessary.

Some States require premarital exams and testing for syphilis, VD, rubella (German Measles is very dangerous to fetuses), tuberculosis, and Sickle Cell Anemia. No state requires a mandatory HIV/AIDS test (political correctness trumps logic).

If the State has decided it has a compelling interest in the health of marriage partners and their offspring, how much more the family?

I have other medical recommendations for engaged couples where one or the other has had any prior sexual experiences. In addition to the tests above, they should consider testing for Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C, if either has had any drug use or tattoos, or if any male/male sex.

The woman should have a Pelvic Exam with Pap Smear, cultures and Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) testing.

If the 27 year old woman who wrote the initial letter was my patient, with plans to marry a promiscuous man, I would also discuss immunization against HPV. Some types of HPV cause cervical dysplasia and cervical cancer - a miserable disease.

When my own 27+ daughter's boyfriend came to ask my permission to marry her, I discussed many things but not his sexual health. However, other fathers should do as I say, not as I do.

81. Steve said the following at 5:09 AM on May 22:

#74 Lauren
So articulately put by Lauren

I appreciate her thoughtful and wise response.

I am a 47 year old father of 5 girls (5-19), I was the only brother in a household with 3 older and one younger sister.I've been married 25 years to my beautiful wife [there's one for you ,Honey ;) ]
I think the absolute necessity of further clarity and insight into your situation will be a wealth of good learning and give you wisdom for the future.It will also help your dad with additionally learning to "speak the truth in love" (I know I need constant practice in this as I seek to honor God with how I raise and teach and train my teenage and young adult daughters in preparing them with a father's input- for future lifelong relationships with them men God may lead them to, or lead to them.)

There are definitely differences between the sexes in how they perceive or even intuitively understand the realm of sexuality among their own or the opposite sex.You don't know how many heart-breaking scenarios I could tell you because people I've ministered to , and with, were not TOTALLY honest, both about the past present and future, when they were about to commit themselves to a lifelong helpmate and companion. Yet even when mistakes are made God is Sovereign in his ability to grow us into His image if our hearts are 100% His)

There's so much we don't know here, but giving the father the benefit of the doubt and assuming he is a godly AND discerning man (as expressed by yourself),and possibly has had life experiences, knowledge of others, etc. that have helped him come to this conclusion. The fact that you have grown deeply towards this man (emotionally it is nigh on impossible not to do in a 4-month time frame, given the level and amount of personal communication you have had with your "suitor"), may make it harder for you to see.The abruptness of your dad's decision (from how you expressed it) seems to me that there may be more behind it. I would encourage your dad to prayerfully and clearly discuss with you exactly what Lauren said. (And he may need the help of a trusted friend or pastor if it feels awkward to him). It will help you gain understanding of the male perspective and maybe wisdom you should now be aware of (of which you will need a lot of in a lifelong marriage), and it will help your dad also (he is part of this growing process too and will have to learn for the other siblings to come after you) . Someone also stated early about the role you play as the eldest, and the "model" that you by default set (especially seeing your responsibility in the present learning how to be a good homemaker and caregiver to your siblings. Sexuality is not something to tread lightly on, and it is NOT like any other sin in regards to consequences. Scripture is very clear about that in I Cor. 6
This is an area that very few Christians think deeply about in regards to what is happening in our culture. Some posts posted after I started writing this allude to that. Men are very graphically oriented in regards to sexuality. And for a man, longterm pornography use has most of the same effects as fornication-minus the STD/STI. You state "wild" past but we don't know what this means.(Drugs, Alcohol,Pornography,Promiscuity?) These are ALL addictive behaviors with not only mental, emotional and spiritual consequences, but also chemical consequences within our bodies that once re-awakened or triggered may provide the flashback" type struggles on writer wrote about.
Maybe your dad is thinking about that. Many people don't understand the idea of courting and for those who practice some forms of it- the more purposeful step it is in the marriage process than conventional western civilizations "dating". If this young man has had many sexual relationships or sexual addictions in the past they most likely WILL play a part in the future of your marriage to this man, even if God in His grace has allowed him to put those feelings to "sleep' for a while. Your original letter said nothing about the kind of sexual questions your dad was asking and so many jumped all over him about (not exactly quoting here) -wanting to know every person he had a sexual experience with and when, and how, he did it! This is ridiculous and doesn't sound like the same dad that you are describing as the father who raised you. He may have very specific reasons why he asked some particular questions, and you as a younger woman about to embark on what God created to be one life's most rewarding and physically intimate journeys deserve to know any of dad's better understanding of the male sexual psyche- as I stated before.

May the Holy Spirit clarify and make things very clear to both you and your dad and your suitor, and draw you all closer to Christ through this.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Contributors

About Us

Relevant Boundless Articles

SUBSCRIBE VIA EMAIL

Newer Post | Older Post