Modesty: A Time and a Place
by Heather Koerner on 05/28/2009 at 8:32 AM
I've been thinking about modesty a bit.
Partly, it's the season. With summer arriving here in America, so arrive the summer clothes and summer questions. What is modest? Does a tank top qualify? How short makes shorts too short? What about swimsuits? Although I'm eternally grateful for whoever figured out that swim shorts weren't just for men, are my swim shorts and tankini top really modest?
Sometimes I get frustrated on the lack of agreement among believers about what is modest and what is not. Can't we just develop the "Seven Simple Rules of Modest Dressing" so that I can shop and be done with it? Instead, it feels like the Christian attitude towards modesty often mirrors Justice Potter Stewart's Supreme Court argument about pornography: "I know it when I see it." In our case, we can't tell you what's necessarily modest, but we know immodest when we see it.
But I found some clarity on this issue when I read a recent article titled "The Single Woman and the Modesty of Personal Restraint" by Lydia Brownback. In the article, Brownback encourages us to examine the modesty of our actions:
"... [I]mmodesty deals with a lot more than revealing too much skin. We are just as prone-if not more so-to overexpose what's under our skin. Revealing too much about ourselves is immodest too.
Sharing confidences and personal experiences with someone forms a bond... If we share a little bit with someone and all goes well, it seems safe to share more, and before we know it, a bond has formed. This can be a great blessing, but when we allow it to happen in the wrong context, it is unwise, and great hurt can result."
Brownback goes on to offer some practical advice on how single women can relate to single men, to married men and "modesty of speech."
My real take-away from the article, though, came from this section:
"There is a time and place to open up and share our sin struggles and personal concerns, and if we are careful to apply Peter's words about the modesty of personal restraint, we will be wise not only about the time and the place, but also about the people we choose to share our hearts with."
A time and place. That's really, I thought, what modesty is about. It's about a time and a place.
Rather than rules and regulations, that phrase sums up an attitude. An attitude of waiting until appropriate. There is a time and a place for intimate conversation between a woman and a man. There is a time and a place to share the intimacy of our bodies. For both, it's marriage.
Modesty, then, isn't about prudishness or hang-ups or an aversion to sex. It's not about, though I'd still love to have them, rules.
Modesty is an attitude that acknowledges and affirms that intimacy and sex are wonderful in their God-given context. It's women and men who are willing to wait for that time and that place and who refuse to "hint" and "flirt" with that intimacy prematurely.
1. Megan said the following at 9:01 AM on May 28:
I love this blog entry and the answer you give (with a little research).
I struggle with modesty, but not so much in an "over-exposure of my body" way. This is a hard topic to explore, with seemingly gray (grey?) areas, but is there really a gray area? Yes, when we're talking rules and regulations and legality, ie I must be covered to the bottom of the knee because my kneecap is too sexy (sarcasm!). But how long is "too long" for a phone conversation with a guy? Can I tell him how much I love my dog on the 2nd date? When is it appropriate during the engagement period to start talking about past sexual sins, or sins at all?
The truth is that there isn't an answer, and I like how Heather says that: time and place.
2. obewan said the following at 9:21 AM on May 28:
As a guy, I have to say that it does not make a lot of difference to me if a woman wears a one piece or two piece swim suit - if they both show all the curves...
What does make a difference is if the woman wears a cover up when sitting on the beach. That helps prevent sun burn, skin cancer, and early wrinkles too...
It does not matter when they are in the water so much what they wear...
3. Saidahwk said the following at 9:47 AM on May 28:
Well, I think this is a splendid post. On the note of modesty in dress, I'm afraid the "Mormon" church has it cornered. They have so many "modest designers"! It's awesome. You can find modest swimsuits, modest tanktops, modest workout clothes... and we're definitely not talking "frumpy" here. I think we as Christians spend too much time trying to figure out how to push the envelope as far as possible. Why not just embrace it?
4. Cassandra said the following at 10:15 AM on May 28:
So Obewan, how do I get from the beach into the water without exposing my curves in a swimsuit?
Excellent post, Heather! I agree that modesty of spirit and restraint in personal sharing is oftentimes an unrecognized struggle for Christians. A lot of the Christians I see don't even know that it's a good idea to hold back and guard your heart, but rush into emotional entangelements headlong. Probably because they don't read Boundless!
I agree with previous posters that it's hard to know what's appropriate to share and what's not. I have to hold myself back from sharing personal things like my testimony from guys I'm dating because I wonder how we'll get to know each other without some type of sharing beyond small talk.
5. Ultraviolet said the following at 10:25 AM on May 28:
Although I'm a woman, I just wanted to echo obewan's post (#2); I was talking with my mom about one piece vs. two piece, and she was saying that a one piece would be much more fair to my boyfriend. I asked my boyfriend what he thought, and he looked at me confused, saying they would have the same effect on him. So I just thought that was interesting.
6. Rachael said the following at 10:47 AM on May 28:
"modesty of speech"
Interesting phrase. Yeah, at times I open up too much, like on here. But at the same time, in my real life, it could be nice if there was a little more openness in some conversations, though I don't have any friends within my generation or the next generation (outside my husband who fits in the latter category) who live where I live now.
I can be open with a few good friends and my mom and sister. None of them live in my city, but I'm blessed in that they live in my state.
Openness is like a double-edged sword. At times, shared openness can be such a blessing. But I wonder if it is 'expected' at times when one doesn't want to 'open up'.
Like, I haven't seen a particular 2 good friends since I married. But I have a feeling that if we see each other and hang out with just the 3 of us, and if one of them doesn't talk a lot about her life situation, I may feel obligated to 'share' what I may not want to, especially since they may already be up-to-date with each other's lives.
I think navigating the art of conversation can be a tough one. It would be nice if it were more common if the topics that came up were ones that dealt with God, faith, and points that the person has been pondering.
But I feel that's often not the case.
At a dinner Bible study we've gone to several times, it was interesting to me that this older woman was talking to me about the character "Much Afraid" in Hind's Feet in High Places. It was neat to me. And from my observation of her behavior, I wonder if I can identify a little with her spirit. I guess I find her as one of the most interesting points of meeting with that group.
7. James said the following at 10:50 AM on May 28:
Regarding beachwear and clothing in general, ladies wear what you're comfortable in. It is my responsibility to take captive my own thoughts and feelings. I refuse to blame anyone for my own sin.
8. obewan said the following at 11:36 AM on May 28:
#4. Cassandra had the following to say on May 28 at 10:15 AM:
"So Obewan, how do I get from the beach into the water without exposing my curves in a swimsuit?"
----------------------------------
Good question. I suppose it is all about "exposure time". I had a Christian boss that used to tell me the first look is "free". It is the "second look you have to worry about." LOL
9. Dan Gill said the following at 11:37 AM on May 28:
A one-piece swimsuit can be immodest. It depends on cut and fit. A two-piece is usually immodest.
James, those of us who struggle with lust (that's the men, in general) do not blame others for our sin, but are led into temptation by what we see. And at a beach or a water park, what chance do we have NOT to see what we shouldn't?
As per emotional modesty, good thoughts.
10. Jorden said the following at 11:43 AM on May 28:
Heather, ask and ye shall receive :P. I'm not 100% sure if you've heard of Alex and Brett Harris(they have released an article on Boundless), but they partnered with some people and did a modesty survey back in 2007. Over 1600 Christian guys participated in the survey and I can't promise it's exactly perfect, but it gives girls a guys perspective on some matters. Hope you like it!
http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse
11. T.Smith said the following at 11:45 AM on May 28:
"Great wisdom is not obvious, great merit not advertised." ~ Sun Tzu
If you fail to proffer mystery, you fail at creating interest. Modesty is just a nice word for mystery and yes, that's interesting.
12. John said the following at 12:14 PM on May 28:
James (#7),
You are half right. You should refuse to blame anyone for your own sin. However, each of us can help each other in our struggles. Modesty in clothing is a very loving choice because it elevates the interests of others and seeks to help them. Modest choices in clothing is a way that girls can help guys battle lust. Drawing an exact line on what specifically not to wear can be hard, but let's not go so far as to tell girls to wear whatever they are comfortble wearing with no concern for others.
13. Sarah C said the following at 12:15 PM on May 28:
Thanks Heather for the article. Modesty is difficult. God has put it in the heart of woman to want to be desired and to have that desire expressed. But, as you wrote, there is a time and place for that expression, and that mostly takes place within marriage. I am grateful for the godly men in my life who compliment me when I look nice in a way that builds me up as a woman and at the same time protects my heart and theirs. It makes it easier for me to resist trying to grab that attention in an unhealthy way, though I do mess up from time to time.
Modesty is an attitude: one of submission to God, of loving God and loving our neighbor.
14. Chad said the following at 12:32 PM on May 28:
James (#7) and Obewan(#2), I'm not going to totally disagree with you fellas, but I do think a couple of comments are worth making.
1) I think this is proof of how different things make different people stumble. While curves do draw my attention, less skin makes things easier for me, so I tend to have an easier time with tankinis or one-pieces, but that can be erased if they have a plunging neckline.
2) Yes, the ladies should wear what they're comfortable in, and it IS my responsibility to control my eyes and take my thoughts captive, but I think the same sort of weaker brother issue applies here that would apply to say, drinking. You probably wouldn't go out with a brother recovering from alcoholism and have 3 beers. By the same token, more coverage tends to make me have to fight with my eyes less.
15. Ms. Marie said the following at 1:24 PM on May 28:
As a girl it can be so hard. I don't feel like I send out "sex rays" all the time and sometime I wish I did.
So many times I start thinking, "It's his issue not mine."
But as the pro-choice ladies say, "My Body my choice." It is my choice, and I'm saying not now to near nakedness.
16. Heather Koerner said the following at 2:12 PM on May 28:
Jorden (#10):
Thanks, I am aware of that study. The team has even blogged about it here and here.
It is informative. Although, I do wonder about the formation of the questions. For example, in skirts they ask young men to agree/disagree with the two following statements: "Mini-skirts are immodest" and "Knee-length skirts are modest." I'd trust the answers more if they were either both phrased as modest or both as immodest.
Same thing happens in the swimsuits. Young men are asked to respond to my scenario "A tankini with shorts is immodest" (about 41% agree or strongly agree--so, 49% or so are neutral or think it modest). Then they're asked "A one-piece swimsuit is modest" (about 54% agree or strongly agree--so, 46% are neutral or think it's immodest).
Ummm...my tankini with shorts covers more skin than a one-piece but is more immodest? That's a little frustrating for this girl. Methinks the question may be affecting the answer.
Still, it does open up doors into the male brain. Thanks for bringing it into the conversation.
17. pass the ammunition said the following at 2:23 PM on May 28:
I totally agree with the whole "time and place" thing. Even a one piece swimsuit with a sarong would not be appropriate for Sunday morning service.
Alternatively, before Western colonial invasion and the subsequent cultural domination, toplessness was normative in many cultures around the world.
18. Charlene said the following at 3:13 PM on May 28:
I think it's really all about our love for Christ. If we are really the Kings daughters and part the Bride of Christ, then wouldn't our love for Him invite us to ask ourselves and even Him: "Is this pleasing to you?"
19. Jo said the following at 3:57 PM on May 28:
John, #12
"but let's not go so far as to tell girls to wear whatever they are comfortble wearing with no concern for others."
To be fair, most immodest clothes are really not comfortable. So probably telling girls to dress comfortably isn't bad advice. :P
20. Danielle said the following at 4:21 PM on May 28:
An interesting observation I've made when it comes to modesty is that we often think of it the same way we think of other sexual boundaries: how far is too far? How much skin is too much skin?
This seems to me like we're coming at things from the wrong angle, sort of like saying, "I'll cover what's absolutely necessary, but don't make me cover any more." It's often subtle, but I've seen this thought pattern in my own life. I think it comes from our sometimes undiagnosed belief that less modest is more attractive. If we didn't think we looked hotter, cuter, or sexier in the strapless dress, we wouldn't be trying to work out allowable ways for us to wear it.
An illustration that profoundly affected me was the story of a woman who lived at the top of a very steep mountain, only accessible by winding roads around the mountain. On one side of the road was the mountain wall; on the other, certain death. The woman set up interviews with possible chauffeurs, asking them how close they could drive to the edge of the mountain road without crashing off the side. "I'd drive to within twelve inches," said one potential employee. "I'd go no closer than two feet," said another. The final interviewee said, "I'd hug the side of the mountain." He got the job.
I am still pondering how this would look in the actual working out of it, but I wonder if there oughtn't to be less "how close can I go?" and more "hugging the side of the mountain" when it comes to modesty? It's something I'm still pondering.
21. Philip said the following at 5:18 PM on May 28:
I put the Rebelution survey results into a more user-friendly spreadsheet at here.
22. the most frequent Kate said the following at 6:18 PM on May 28:
Lately, I keep seeing all these pretty sundresses in pretty fabrics with flowing skirts etc. in discount department stores that actually look like they'd sufficiently cover my chest area. Then I realize they are "plus-sized." I'm glad they are making cute "plus-sized" clothes... but I wish they'd prevalently sell the same style of cut for the "misses" size range too! Shopping can be so frustrating when you are looking for pretty clothes that fit tastefully! Perhaps I need to learn to sew...
Saidahwk, what are the names of some of the fashionable, yet modest designers?
23. Carol said the following at 7:07 PM on May 28:
I solved the swimsuit issue (for me) by wearing knee-length shorts and a sleeveless shirt over my swimsuit. Why should I show more of my body while swimming than I would while not swimming?
I found some "ground rules" for modesty for young girls on the internet once that were really helpful to me. However, I can't remember the name of the site...too bad.
Probably the best way to tell if something is modest or not is to ask a man (someone like your dad or brother) "Is this modest?"
24. a sassy sister said the following at 7:32 PM on May 28:
I'm glad there is a discussion about modesty in spirit. But I also believe that there should be balance as well. I definitely should think of my brothers in regards to the clothes that I wear, but it simply goes deeper than making an arbitrary decision about what will cover my skin. There is a lot of talk about being more aware and considerate of our clothing choices as women, but to me it raises several questions:
Am I basing my understanding on modesty by my peers/culture(and that includes tradition) or is it based on Scripture? What is the end result of my decision to practice modesty? Am I making my clothing choices/levels of openness disclosure because I am afraid of disapproval/isolation of others or disobedience to God? Cultivating modesty in character cannot be turned into a formulaic, rigid dos and dont's list. I think that in many instances for discussing modesty there is the mischaracterization of positions in living out modesty(in character and in deed).
One that I perceive is that by warning against rules you create the the opportunity for legalism and spiritual abuse; but there is also the argument you are also opening the floodgates for provocative clothing and promiscuity by not having a definitive guideline as to immodest behavior.
25. Leah said the following at 8:37 PM on May 28:
It's really weird how fashions and attitudes change over the generations. And beyond the obvious, I mean. Like, in my parents' generation, women didn't wear board shorts. It wasn't a modesty issue, they just didn't. They wore shirts, yes (especially in my area of the world, if you want to avoid skin cancer, you wear a shirt when you're swimming in the middle of the day!) My mum thought I was a bit silly when I started wearing board shorts at 12 (of course I was just doing it coz my friends did). I don't remember my mum wearing shorts swimming until she was past 40 and was really becoming a bit self-conscious about her thighs ;) Anyway, what I'm saying in a round-about way, is that swimming shorts weren't a matter of modesty in my mum's generation. These days if we see a girl parading round in nothing more than a bikini there are numerous less-than-flattering things we might think about her, but in my parents' generation, women just didn't wear shorts. And it makes me wonder, did guys look twice? Or were they just used to it? I am sure guys 100 years ago would have been a lot more distracted by a girl in a bikini than guys these days are.
Jo (19) - depends on your definition of "comfortable". Do you mean mentally comfortable, or physically comfortable? Because there are girls who can be completely mentally comfortable in immodest clothes. And most of the time when I've tried something on in the shops which has turned out to be immodest (often can't tell when it's on the hanger) it's been fine physically, but there's no way I'd wear it out.
Dan Gill... why is a two-piece automatically immodest? Is it because it's showing the belly? Not all two-pieces show the belly. What about belly dancers? Are they immodest, although they're usually wearing floor-length skirts?
Re: Heather's comment "Ummm...my tankini with shorts covers more skin than a one-piece but is more immodest?"
That's when I begin thinking it's the guy's problem and he can get over it. I'm totally in support of girls helping guys out and generally trying to cover up, but seriously, sometimes the guys need to take responsibility. I know of girls who prefer to wear tankinis because they are often baggier than one-pieces and so they feel they are hiding their figure more and therefore being more modest.
26. KJ said the following at 9:14 PM on May 28:
re: Modesty Survey
I read the Modesty Survey when it first came out and it was really troubling. I guess what it comes down to is, at what point do I say "Guys just need to look away!" For example: 93% of guys find miniskirts immodest. (I find this to be sort of a no-brainer, but bear with me!) 52% find a sheer shirt over a camisole to be a stumbling block. 47% think shirts with messages are a problem. (So do I ditch the sheer shirt but keep the T-shirt with words on it because less than half of the guys surveyed have a problem?) Nearly 17% think baggy dresses and jumpers are the only modest solution.
If only it WERE that cut-and-dried - but it's not. Maybe wearing what is comfortable and feels modest to us (and doesn't draw the ire of our own fathers or husbands) is good enough, and the rest of the world needs to man up and look away.
On the other hand, it's been a very long time since I heard anybody talk about emotional modesty - which is needed, since the Bible talks quite a bit about that as well.
27. Kate (the law school one) said the following at 11:59 PM on May 28:
On the bathing suit issue: (which I know is not the main point but I found something cool and thought some of the women on the board might appreciate it)
If you're not comfortable in a traditional one piece or bikini, than perhaps you might want to consider one of the swim suit styles preferred by Muslim women. They cover a lot more skin. There's an American based online company that sells swim shirts and pants that are based that surf motifs and are specifically designed to not cling to the body when wet. It's a bit expensive, but it is another option. The link is below because I do 't know how to embed and at this late hour I don't want to try and learn.
Splashgear swim wear:
https://splas004.secure.omnis.com/store/index.php
28. Jo said the following at 3:09 AM on May 29:
I think the problem with setting blanket rules for modesty is that we're all different shapes and sizes, so it's often not the clothes themselves that are immodest - it's how they look on the particular person. For example, a woman with a large bust has to be a lot more careful about the necklines she chooses to wear than someone with a smaller bust.
I don't have any blanket rules for myself, really, but I know how I want to look. So I choose clothes that are attractive and bring out my best features, and not clothes that will make guys leer after me in the street.
I think a lot of it is about self image, and knowing what looks flattering on you. And I kinda think that for a lot of girls, the duty to 'not cause the guys to sin' just makes them worry more about their appearance than they already do. It's certainly a valid issue - I just think it's not always helpful to focus on that.
I think it's really about helping girls discover their beauty and emphasise their attractive points with flattering clothes that look good on them. It's when we don't feel pretty that we feel the need to show more skin. Raise girls' self esteem and they'll naturally dress more modestly, and probably more attractively at the same time.
And guys can probably help with that, if they're not afraid to complement girls when they look nice. If someone's dressed modestly and looks pretty, why not say so?
29. Louise from Chicago said the following at 7:30 AM on May 29:
I like comment 7.
We are responsible for our OWN THOUGHTS!
And regarding beachwear, one cannot expect someone to complete cover up her (and it's always a HER who has to cover up, too) body in a pool setting because it might cause a "brother to stumble."
If someone has an addiction to alcohol, we expect him or her to act wisely and if necessary avoid all bar settings.
If someone is so out of control with "impure thoughts" that he/she cannot cope with swimwear, than that person who avoid all pool settings!
In short, if I am not in my workplace and I am not violating any indecent exposure laws no one has the right to tell me what I can or cannot wear!
30. stewart said the following at 8:46 AM on May 29:
Kate (#27) -- that is truly disturbing! Are we to start adopting fundamentalist Muslim traditions in this country?? Is the next step for Christian women to wear burquas for the sake of "modesty"? I would rather my girlfriend not go swimming at all than show up at the beach in that ridiculous getup.
31. NeedACatchyName said the following at 10:05 AM on May 29:
I would like to echo everyone who is saying that shorts with swimwear for women is a good idea. As a guy, I think this is the single most important step to modest swimwear. And it really seems to be catching on. Heck, I'd say at this point I see more Christian girls wearing shorts over their swimsuits than not, and I know several girls who have said they would feel downright embarrassed and indecently exposed if they didn't, even though two years ago they wouldn't have thought twice about not wearing shorts over their swimsuit.
I think that for most guys shorts over a relatively modest swimsuit is enough to guard against lust. The whole t-shirt over the swimsuit thing might be a plus for some people, but shirts can get soggy really easily, and can be a pain to swim in. I think that at the very least any guy who thinks that girls should wear shirts while swimming should wear one himself, since guys expose more torso than girls in normal swim attire, and it would be downright hypocritical to request something of someone else that you're not willing to do.
And the other alternative if a guy can't control his thoughts is to skip swimming events where girls would be present. I know at least one person who does this, and I have a lot of respect for him in that he's willing to admit that something causes him to sin and stays away from it. One thing that would help these people would be to make swimming events "side" events instead of "main" events. For example, instead of having your singles group's big summer extravaganza by the pool, why not have it somewhere else with an optional swimming event later in the evening? That way, those who wish to skip the swimming won't feel like they have to choose between attending a church activity and avoiding sin.
32. Pak said the following at 10:06 AM on May 29:
Louise from Chicago (#29)
You are right about being responsible for one's own thoughts but see 1 Corinthians 10:31-33. For example, if my brother has an addiction to alcohol and I like to have an occasional glass of wine with my meal, I guess we should never have dinner together because HE should avoid having dinner with me as I might have a glass of wine. Wouldn't I, being a responsible brother (both by blood and through Christ), give up MY desire for wine (instead of HIM giving up a chance to have fellowship with one another), in order to keep him from stumbling?
33. Louise from Chicago said the following at 10:37 AM on May 29:
Commnent 32, in the scenario you present, you may still have "dinner" with someone if you decide to forego a glass of wine.
But, telling a woman attending a beach that she should not be wearing a swimsuit without shorts/shirt just is not reasonable.
The beach/pool area is different from other public settings, folks.
Now, if I had plans to stop at a store on the way home from beach/pool I would always make sure I had a pair of shorts to wear over the swimsuit while I go into the store.
If someone cannot "handle" pool attire then he/she should avoid beach/pool settings.
34. Pak said the following at 11:22 AM on May 29:
Comment 33,
I agree that if one has a genuine problem, one should avoid such temptation. My "dinner" example is an emphasis on where the responsibility is placed. I, personally, would choose to not drink as opposed to forcing my brother to decide if he should risk having dinner with me on the off-chance that I may or may not consume alcohol. The same goes for the "pool" scenario. Do you make it the responsibility of those who struggle with these issues (and not a full blown problem) or do you take it upon yourself to help them by dressing more modestly?
The verse was not so much directed at the "pool issue" but more so to the quote:
"In short, if I am not in my workplace and I am not violating any indecent exposure laws no one has the right to tell me what I can or cannot wear!"
That's why I quoted the verse. You are correct in that no one can tell you what to wear or not to wear but that doesn't mean we ignore our sibling's struggles. It goes back to the topic of this blog - modesty.
35. Kellie said the following at 11:44 AM on May 29:
Regarding the Modesty Survey:
My biggest problem was the question about a girl/woman wearing her purse strap across her chest. Apparently, the majority of the boys/men surveyed found this immodest.
I usually make a point to buy bags that can be worn this way because they allow my hands to be free (especially important these days with an infant) and it discourages purse snatchers from targeting me.
I also have breastfed in public (covered up of course), but this also draws attention to my chest area.
I do believe in modesty, but guys also have some responsibility, I can't plan everything around how a guy's mind might wander.
36. Louise from Chicago said the following at 11:45 AM on May 29:
Comment 33, actually I think it is more an issue of "time and place."
Modern swimsuits are standard beach/pool attire.
It is not reasonable to expect one not to wear this attire in this particular setting.
If someone honestly cannot "handle" this attire, he/she should avoid this setting.
Now, what probably would not be a good idea is actively encouraging someone like this to join one for a day at the beach!
That would be not respecting someone's "struggle".
In a bar setting, it is standard to have people drinking alcohol.
Of course not everyone attending a bar will be drinking alcohol, but that is the usual behavior in this setting.
Therefore, someone who has an alcohol problem should avoid the bar scene.
37. Kate (the law school one) said the following at 11:54 AM on May 29:
I'm not saying Christian women should adept Muslim traditions, just that there are a lot of women out there that don't feel comfortable going out in public in a bathing suit. And this is an alternative. It doesn't have a head covering or anything, it's a line of separates (pants and shirts) in a UV resistant, non-clingy material that you can swim in. I might not get one (a bit too much resistance when doing laps) but my mother would flip for this. So would my friends who get horrible sunburns or don't want to expose too much.
38. DannieA said the following at 1:42 PM on May 29:
Bathing suits are appropriate attire for swimming and the beach. End of story! I really don't know what all the fuss is about.
On day to day clothing, I can't believe I will use secular teaching, however, if anyone is a fan of the show "What Not to Wear" on TLC (which is a channel on cable) These are highly regarded fashion sense people and will dress you appropriately! As even THEY said, it is not appropriate to wear a mini-skirt EVER and cleavage showing the "girls" for free should be avoided at all cost cuz you just look trashy. I love their clothing suggestions and for lovely v-neck items they also give you tips on cami's to wear underneath. Seriously folks I think people here would look good and modest by taking notes and following this show. Plugged-In online should do a thing on it if it hasn't already done so.
39. DannieA said the following at 1:47 PM on May 29:
Because you know there's dressing modest with respect for yourself and then there is dressing modestly (in baggy pants, sweats, t-shirts) that really makes you look bad.
40. Heidi said the following at 2:27 PM on May 29:
For all concerned about flaws within or misapplications of the Modesty Survey, I'd encourage you to remember that it was done only as a resource - a gift tot eh girls who requested it - and nothing more. Many girls and ladies were discussing amongst ourselves what is or is not physically modest, and we realized that input from many guys would be beneficial to our understanding of the subject. If you do not find it helpful you are welcome to disregard it. :)
I found that article on emotional modesty to be very edifying; thank you for posting it. Emotional modesty is something I was aware of instinctively and trying to follow, but I had never before seen it articulated so clearly.
The understanding of the importance of emotional modesty really hit home for me while watching an episode of "What Would You Do?" They were experimenting with the reactions of diners when a person becomes disruptive by loudly conversing on the phone. A man in that position arguing aggressively into the phone was thrown out pretty quickly, but a woman who gave the impression that she was frantically asking a friend for advice on how to handle a stressful work situation involving her (male) boss was listened to with curiosity and amusement. An analyst in human behavior commented that the reason the woman received a more kindly reaction was because she, and I quote, "psychologically disrobed". That phrase is seared into my memory as a frank definition if emotional immodesty, and a secular one at that!
41. Tami said the following at 2:37 PM on May 29:
DannieA, I think What Not to Wear is appropriate :)
They teach people how to dress nicely, in a way that demonstrates respect for themselves (and others... and for the contexts they work in). One example is from a few years ago, when they had a really sweet woman who worked in a real estate office. She dressed like she was up for clubbin' when she was meeting clients and working in the office! She thought she was simply showing off her newly healthy shape, whereas, her clothing sent a message she REALLY didn't intend to send. Stacy and Clinton taught her how to dress in a stylish, sophisticated manner that was still really flattering. She resisted at first, but really came around at the end.
I have learned a lot from What Not to Wear. The thing that is hard is, I don't have a tailor at the ready, to hem all my pants! ;)
42. Muffy said the following at 3:45 PM on May 29:
My name is not really Muffy, and my summer vacation plans do not entail vacationing to Martha's Vineyard. However, if you are uncomfortable with today's mainstream fashion, the preppy look offers a modest but "put-together" alternative. These clothes (Ralph Lauren, Lilly Pulitzer, J.Crew, etc.) are generally well-made and will remain in-style "forever," making them a good investment (often can be purchased at good sale prices, too).
That said, as other posters commented, very few (if any) of today's mainstream style experts promote the streetwalker look. Watch TLC's "What Not to Wear" or Style Network's "How Do I Look?" Quite often, these shows will help people adopt a classier (versus their previously trashy) look.
It's silly to ask women to wear a burka swimsuit to the beach, unless that's what they want to wear. Those things are hideous, imho. BTW, I think swimsuits, as a whole, may have actually become more modest in recent years, with the introduction of tankinis, boyshorts, and skirtinis. I also think Americans, due to the current obesity epidemic, are much more self-conscious about their bodies and less likely to want to wear something terribly revealing.
Just from watching old movies, I really think they had the right ideas about fashion back in the 40s, 50s, etc. People, from what these movies depict, generally dressed neither sloppy, nor slutty. They simply put their best foot forward-both in their manners of speech and in their day-to-day dress. I love sports & higher education opportunties too much to go back to pre-title 9 days, but I do love the gentile & respectful demeanor with which people carried themselves back in those days.
43. kaj said the following at 9:31 PM on May 29:
Recently, I went looking for formal dress for a fundraising event.
It was very hard to find something that didn't show off so much skin in the upper body. I wanted something pretty, that covered up all the right areas, but didn't end up looking like a "mother/grandmother of the bride" dress.
I do get tired of seeing dresses that reveal too much breast, from peers to celebrities. Just because many people choose to wear such doesn't mean I want to.
What I did find (a great bargain at a thrift shop), I eventually altered to hike up the neckline a few inches for my comfort.
(I have seen quite a few "modest formal dresses" on the Web, but they are way too expensive for me; I paid less than $20 for the dress I bought).
I respect the men in my life, both single and married; that's my motivation for making sure I dress modestly.
But boy, (no pun intended), you hit home with the modesty of conversation bit. I regret having long conversations in attempts to be friends with some guys, and it backfires. Something happens (usually the male friend starts dating someone else).
I may have not given my body away, but giving away my emotions and mind...that's another story. I am struggling with how to be friendly with guys without being too close of a friend to them.
44. BDB said the following at 11:25 PM on May 29:
One day I must have been watching TLC or something that normally has a female demographic. Maybe Food Network. I dunno.Without the car ads these days, lots of weird ads are showing up on television.
One of them was a set of products to add a layer to convert less-modest tops into a more-modest outfit.
The first thing I thought of was these various Boundless discussions about modesty. The second was that whoever created this stuff was probably a clever businesswoman figuring out how to capitalize on an unfortunate trend.
45. arlen said the following at 11:44 PM on May 29:
If you want to attract a Godly young man for friendship /relationship /maybe- marriage- someday. then you should dress in a way he will respect you. If he avoids the beach and swimming parties for modest reasons. You may never meet the man God has for you. There was some good advice "ask your dad or brothers if it is modest" Girls you don't know what goes on inside the brain of a man. We are wired so differently than you women. I do apperciate women who dress modestly. Here is some words to an old some "It only takes a spark to get a fire going..." Every guy should know the meaning behind the words there.
46. Joyce said the following at 6:49 AM on May 30:
Thank you so much for your post on modesty!
It seems that I have a different problem. Sometimes, I feel that I am too modest. I try not to draw attention to myself. I always wear pants and blouses with sleeves when I go out. I seldom wear skirts or tank tops outside even though it is very hot.
One reason for this is to protect myself against the sun. Another reason is that I feel too shy to wear something sleeveless unless the event is formal and requires a gown.
Likewise, the last time that I went to the beach and wore a one-piece swimsuit was in December 2000 with my family. It is a pity because there are many beautiful beaches here, but I do not like to go out in the sun and wear skimpy attire.
About emotional modesty, I often share personal things about myself with family, close friends and on the internet. But I rarely share my personal thoughts with acquaintances and strangers I meet, especially men.
Sometimes, I feel that I should share them with someone else but I feel scared to reveal myself. It seems better to err on the side of caution than to reveal too much. But I feel that I do not have the mystery that many modest women have.
PS. By the way, I like What Not to Wear as well. Sometimes, I cannot believe the immodest outfits that people wear because I cannot think of myself wearing them. It's so nice to see modesty being heeded in mainstream media.
47. Leah said the following at 12:09 AM on Jun 1:
Joyce - you seriously avoid the beach just because you don't like to wear skimpy attire? Wow. That blows my mind. My city is a beach city. I live in Townsville, Queensland, Australia and you can't NOT go to the beach. But it's not like there's any dress code about what you wear on the beach. Sure you get a few people who parade around in bikinis, but a lot of people at the beach don't go to swim- just to have a BBQ, or to socialise or eat at a cafe along the esplanade, and they're wearing totally normal clothes.
48. Ginny said the following at 7:58 AM on Jun 1:
If you or anyone else can look at you and say "You look sexy," I'd question whether the outfit is modest.
I raised three sons, and I was always dismayed when the women and girls at church revealed too much, or wore their clothing too tight. I longed for a "safe" place for my sons to grow up, without the distraction of the female body. Recently my youngest son admitted that when he was a teenager, his lust was almost uncontrollable. I was heartbroken to realize that some of the temptation had come from "Christian" women and girls. Ladies, I firmly believe that we KNOW when we're exposing too much or dressing in a way that is sensual, rather than simply attractive. I know it's difficult, but if we want to we can dress modestly, beautifully, and in current fashion.
49. Kellie said the following at 11:28 AM on Jun 1:
#48: My husband thinks I look sexy in just about everything. Perhaps I should never leave the house? :-)
50. DannieA said the following at 1:06 PM on Jun 1:
I personally drool over men in suits. They look HOT to me...and that's covering all the body! They don't look that hot in a t-shirt and shorts....hmmmm it's all perspective I suppose.
Kellie, I'm glad your husband finds you sexy ;)
51. Joyce said the following at 8:39 AM on Jun 2:
Hi Leah! I can go to the beach anytime but I don't really swim. I mean, I can swim but I do not swim regularly. The last time I swam was in 2000. When I go to the beach, I usually wear a shirt and capri pants.
52. Ginny said the following at 12:50 PM on Jun 2:
Kellie, I'm glad your husband finds you sexy! He should!
It's wonderful if you're sexy for your husband...and that is precisely my point. You should look sexy FOR YOUR HUSBAND, not for every man you meet.
It seems to me that, if you have a particularly alluring or "sexy" figure, you may actually need to play it down some, in order that you not be an instrument of temptation to men other than your husband.
Notice, I said that I would question whether the outfit is modest. I didn't make a sweeping judgment, for the precise reason that sometimes even when women are very modest, a man will still be physically attracted. Please take what I said in context, rather than making light of it.
53. Kelly said the following at 6:58 PM on Jun 2:
Carol said:
"Why should I show more of my body while swimming than I would while not swimming?"
Short answer here: Swimming in less is ultimately easier.
Swimming in a t-shirt and shorts drags me down SO much. I'll sometimes go into the water wearing a shirt (to protect from the sun), but if I take it off and swim in just a swimsuit, OH, it's wonderful! This must be why most guys don't wear shirts at all in the water.
I surf, and so from that point of view, tighter is better. But while I'm surfing I'm certainly not thinking about flaunting my body, and besides, when you're on a wave you're moving too fast to be ogled. ;)
54. Kellie said the following at 8:35 PM on Jun 2:
#50 and #52: I'm glad too!
#52 brings up an interesting point. Do those girls/women who are more attractive have to worry about modesty more? Do the the less attractive have less to worry about?
55. BDB said the following at 9:35 PM on Jun 2:
Hey, since there are multiple Kelly's, maybe #53 could be known as Kelly (the surfer)!
56. Tami said the following at 11:23 PM on Jun 2:
I don't think there are different standards of modesty for women based on their supposed "level" of attractiveness. If, indeed, they are *standards,* they should (by definition) apply to all women.
But certain items of clothing (even something as simple as a v-neck shirt) may be more or less alluring on different body types, so the individual woman should consider the *fit* of the item on her particular figure, rather than simply go by whether or not its "type" is generally considered modest or not.
To use the What Not to Wear example again, sometimes they'll encourage the women to buy something a size bigger, and then get the item tailored, so that it fits in a more flattering manner -- rather than wear something that fits OK in some places, but is too tight/loose/revealing in other respects.
57. Jo said the following at 12:44 AM on Jun 3:
Ginny,
"sometimes even when women are very modest, a man will still be physically attracted."
You make it sound like this is an unfortunate reality, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a guy being physically attracted. In fact my aim is to wear modest clothes that look attractive. Finding someone attractive isn't the same as lusting after them.
58. MarkS said the following at 6:59 PM on Jun 16:
As someone who has struggled with lust I must say that we (and men) are far too immodest. And ESPECIALLY in church. Not that we should behave differently elsewhere, but there are those of us who seek asylum with our brethren and (sistren?) and I for one often feel more tempted in the sanctuary! This is in part due to the enemy seeking to distract us as we get closer to God.
While concern for the boyfriend's feelings are valid, it is equally important to consider your brothers. I take FULL responsibility for my thoughts but please try not to tempt me. We (men) are to treat women like sisters. I am thinking this goes both ways. Please try to guard your brothers' virtue.
As to the "how far?" question, I think some of Ms Hadley's recent discussions apply here as well. Rather than worry about where the line is, let's keep way this side of the line.
Perhaps a good rule of thumb (in addition to avoiding the obvious) is to think more about why you dress then how. I am finding that my appearance is driven far more than I realize by my desire to be attractive.
So does a dress look pretty like a field of flowers or does it look sexy? Why did you pick it out? Is my muscle shirt really comfortable or do I want girls to look at me?