How Much Sin To Revisit
by Ted Slater on 05/11/2009 at 11:36 AM
We received a comment on the 'Not Telling Dad' Daughter Responds discussion that well-illustrates the difficulty in determining how much of one's dark past should be discussed within a relationship.
A sinful past is a wound. Even if the Lord has forgiven it, the scars remain. So, in what detail should such scars be uncovered, prodded by both the scarred and their partner? When does keeping the bandage on cause more hurt, and at what point does peeling back the covering cause more hurt?
Perhaps the healthy balance lies somewhere between total transparency and total obscurity.
I've received the author's permission to copy-paste her comment below:
* * *
I commented before about coming into marriage as a virgin and marrying someone with sexual sin in their past. As a springboard off from this topic about this young lady's possible similar future scenario, do you think someone could address this relevant issue in an article?
As a devoted wife to a wonderful, godly man, I still struggle so with getting over his past. At this point I know that this is a failure on my part, not his.
We never properly dealt with it before marriage; I suggested counseling during engagement and he was horrified that I'd consider making him that vulnerable in front of people who respected him. He felt it would be a betrayal of his confidence, since he was repentant. I don't think he could understand my need to work through it — he'd already worked through it in his heart.
He had no explanation to give me other than that "it happened." Secretly I fear that if he can't assess the wrong steps he took to fall into sin before, then how can I silence those niggling doubts that it could possibly happen again? Now he doesn't want to revisit the subject, which would probably make things worse anyway.
So I struggle in silence because I've never felt that my hurt was acknowledged; and I've felt somewhat that my own gift of virginity to him was undervalued. I just wanted him to celebrate what I had saved for him; and it fell flat. Maybe I was prideful in wanting this.
Anyway, a post or article on working through this on my own would be so helpful, since it seems I can't talk to him or anyone else about it. Thanks everyone for their perspectives shared on this article — it's been very interesting.
* * *
This is a tough one. On one hand, this woman has some legitimate feelings: She feels that her husband is downplaying his former sins, which makes her feel that maybe her virginity — something she valued — went underappreciated. And if his former sins weren't that big a deal, what's to say they won't be revisited?
On the other hand, her husband has been forgiven by the Lord. In the words of the hymn, "It Is Well With My Soul":
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more
And if the sins are no more, why bring them back into the light of scrutiny, something that has the potential to inflict further pain?
Perhaps the following two thoughts can provide direction here:
"... where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Romans 5:20) and Jesus' saying that those who are forgiven much love much (Luke 7:47). Perhaps by together reviewing the depth of sin, and how much has been forgiven, both husband and wife will have a greater appreciation of grace.
John Thomas wrote a column called "Ineffective Forgiveness?" in which he challenges a young man to really forgive his girlfriend for her past sexual sins, though doing so is very difficult, seemingly impossible.
I'd be interested in hearing how you struggle with this issue.
1. obewan said the following at 11:55 AM on May 11:
This is an issue I struggle constantly with due to the number of divorced women I meet. It is very hard to discern if there was a "biblical" basis for their divorces and whether they can be "biblically" remarried. I usually don't ask the nosey probing questions, but wait for them to tell me or give me some hint of how their marriage ended. Still, I end up feeling like I am being judgmental.
There is actually one sister that I WAS interested in until she gave her testimony to the singles group and disclosed that her numerous adulterous relationships were the cause of her own divorce. She subsequently became a Christian, but now I struggle with not wanting to pursue her because she is unreconciled with her ex husband. It may sound harsh, but I am glad I found out before I started dating her - assuming she would even be willing to "date" me of course.
2. Kellie said the following at 12:21 PM on May 11:
As a virgin who married a non-virgin, I honestly feel like I can say it was a non-issue. He was very upfront about his past (he told me before we ever started dating) and he was very much a different person from when the sin had occurred.
Truthfully, his second relationship (I was his third) where he didn't even kiss his then-girlfriend bothered me more, because I think he would have married her if she hadn't broken up with him (of course, he's very glad she did because then he met me).
3. Pedro said the following at 12:49 PM on May 11:
I seriously don't understand why people need to talk about their past (and by past, I mean before the relationship) sin if they have repented and turned from it. It always feels like people want to make them "work through it", like forgiveness through works, rather than through grace.
Get over your pride, your hurt feelings, and forgive.
4. Leah W said the following at 1:01 PM on May 11:
I think what she's struggling with (or at least what I would be struggling with if I were her) would be his lack of "ownership" of the problems that lead to the sin. I don't so much hear condemnation in what she's saying as far as what he did, she just seems to want to understand the "process" that lead up to that problem.
I've actually had a conversation with a guy I was dating (I'm a virgin and he isn't. He was *very* up front about what he had done and the circumstances that surrounded the dating relationship where he had given away his virginity. The ironic thing is while we were going out this former girlfriend--who was now pregnant by another guy--started calling him and wanting to get back with him. Because I knew his circumstances were different now (he hadn't been living his faith when he had lost his virginity) I had zero fear of him falling into that relationship again. We actually had a conversation about whether or not he was interested in her in that way. He sd that since she didn't share his faith he *couldn't* be interested in her, and while remaining her friend (because she needed one) he had no desire to be more that that.
We all make mistakes! And while we shouldn't wallow in them, we do need to deal with the root issue(s) that lead us to fall. Was it lack of self-control? Was it is simply because at that time we didn't have Christ in our lives? Was it a bad judgement call that put us in a situation that led to the mistake?
There's a certain amount of personal ownership that we need to take with regard to our sin.
And to be completely honest the more I see what I did that contributed to my sinning the more Grace I see in my forgiveness! Why *should* Christ forgive me and rescue me when I've created the mess that put me in the filth and ruin of this world?! Because He is merciful and loves me more than I could ever know!!!! :)
5. sp said the following at 1:09 PM on May 11:
Both my husband and I had sexual sin in our past. One of the things I struggled with most after coming back to the Lord, but before meeting my husband, was how in the world I was going to tell a future husband about my prior sin and how he would react.
Well, we like to say that God has a sense of humor. Ironically, he was part of my past. I never had to explain anything to him (and vice versa) because he already knew a little bit of it. I don't know his details, he doesn't know mine and thats fine. We do often wonder how things would have been different if we had both been walking with the Lord when we first met (6 years prior to when we re-met - at church). At the same time, we both strongly believe Romans 8:28, that God can use all things (even our sinful pasts!) for the good of those who love him and keep his commands.
Since we've been married, his past has not been a struggle for me. If anything, my own past, and truly believing the Lord's forgiveness is the struggle. I do believe that God has removed our past and has blessed our desire to honor him through our relationship.
6. Ann said the following at 1:23 PM on May 11:
I believe that the law of sowing and reaping still apply to our former sins, even if they are before Christ and have been forgiven. The consequence of having sexual sin in your past, whether it be pornography, like my husband, or having sex outside of marriage, like myself, still effects our future relationships. It is most important that the person has received forgiveness from God. However, you still need to answer to your spouse. I believe she's right in that she still needs to work through it. If not with her husband than with someone else, perhaps a counselor. This is a division between the two of them and the enemy loves to divide! One of the first things I had to literally mourn was the loss of that purity for us. I also had to let my expectations of my marriage die so God could build something new. As far as the divorce topic on here. I divorced before I became a Christian. God did bring me to reconcile the relationship with my ex-husband but not so far as to re-marry him. We have both since remarried and our children receive a double reward as far as praying parents go!
7. brx said the following at 1:34 PM on May 11:
I should think every follower of Christ has struggled at one time or another with the questions of whether to confess a matter with other people, to whom, and in what detail - after seemingly confessing it to God. [I say "seemingly" because sometimes we think we have confessed a matter in prayer but in actuality, have neglected to dig deep enough to really understand and bring up the root of the matter]
James 5:16 makes it crystal clear: Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.
that you may be healed
that you may be healed.
The Word is not saying to get up and air your dirty laundary from a soap-box in a local church. But the Word is saying very clearly that while forgiveness is by grace, healing involves vulnerability and the body of Christ.
Upon hearing of this man's reluctance to seek out counseling and therapy, it raises the question of whether this man is really partaking of the gifts, wisdom, and nurturing in the body of Christ and thus receiving the full nourishment of communion.
It sounds like this man thinks his sin is all about him while she thinks her hurt and feelings are all her own issues; they are NOT - any longer. Not only has Christ died and purchased each of them, but they are also married and therefore share responsibility as one.
Speaking of wholeness, vulnerability, security together in Christ... God's will has not changed from the beginning -
The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. Gen 2:25
It's not lack of clothes that makes one naked. It's a humble willingness to be clothed by the coverings of God rather than our own fearful guardedness.
Grace & peace with movement toward humble boundaries and radical hospitality... not saying it's easy... takes some courage to risk...
8. Ariana said the following at 1:35 PM on May 11:
I think the woman in the post's concern that if he can't figure out how and why he sinned sexually in the first place that he might well do it again is legitimate. Though, he could have worked through all that and had no need to do it again. And also, a lot of time, sin just isn't complicated. You probably don't need to go to a counselor to talk about why you went too far sexually. Most of the time the only real question is whether you've genuinely repented or not.
I think that the woman is dealing with insecurities of her own and unfulfilled expectations of how she thought things would be, which is understandable. As far as feeling like her virginity was undervalued, that may very well have been due a lot to her pride. It could be that he never appreciated the significance of waiting. But it could also be that we as Christians can tend to add sentimentality to biblical commands, like focusing on how "special" it will be if you both have waited. I've heard non-Christians say the same thing, showing that the idea doesn't have much to do at all with trying to be faithful to Christ. I in no way want to even imply that it's not special or important to be a virgin when you marry--it's imperative. But, as far as the biblical perspective is concerned, the Lord is principally concerned about our obedience to Him, and as long as a person has sorted things out with Him, that's all that ultimately matters.
Honestly, I think she should be rejoicing in the work of redemption the Lord has done in her husband rather than focusing on the fact that things aren't what she expected. He should be sensitive, though. I'm sure that if the woman talked about her fears and concerns with her husband without making it seem like he's the one that has a problem, that if he really loves her, he would be able to do and say things to make her feel special in the way she wants.
9. Diane said the following at 1:42 PM on May 11:
We all come into marriage with sin, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, so why would some sins need to be "worked through" and others not? Honesty to each other about sexual purity or lack of it is imperitive but offering details will not make the spouse less or more open to temptation. We are all open to temptation and we must be careful not to think we stand lest we fall. When a person truly repents they may have some natural consequences to face and they may need to be mindful to place deliberate boundaries and accountability in place to flee from that area of sin but grace, forgiveness and encouragement are not being offered if they are still being asked to retell details. Remember, the issue is not marital infidelity--direct sin against the spouse as well as God--but previous to the relationship. Both people have been given God's amazing grace by the blood of Christ; both were objects of wrath before salvation. Ask the Holy Spirit for the power to truly forgive as you have been forgiven.
10. Tami said the following at 2:05 PM on May 11:
I almost think these are two separate issues:
1. Yes, I think the woman has legitimate concerns that if he won't address how the steps he took to into sexual sin, that he might do it again. Even if that *specific* sin is no longer an issue, then it might be a bad pattern of avoidance: say, for example, he's consistently inconsiderate of her in a certain way, and he always says he's "sorry" but won't take steps to rectify things. (Then again, his "it happened," while not the wisest answer, may just be his way of saying, "I've gone over this and dealt with it, and it pains me to think about it again, and I won't *do* it again." Not knowing the guy it's not possible to say for sure.)
2. If I marry a guy and he had sex with someone before we married, is that necessarily a sin against *me*? I wouldn't be thrilled by it, and I'd have to work through related issues, but I'm not sure I am the one that dispenses forgiveness in that case. I mean, obviously if he cheated on me, it's between us. But if it happened 5 years ago? Or 10? Or 20? And he's long since repented? I don't know if I'm the one who "forgives," if our (specific) relationship wasn't even a thought at that point.
...yup, just read comment 9 and agree :)
Also... Of course we work through our past sins (looking seriously at them, confessing them, and changing our behavior), but let's not lose sight of the fact that, once we repent, we are *new creatures.*
11. Dan Gill said the following at 2:07 PM on May 11:
I don't think we can really know very much about this situation from a letter. There is so much that isn't covered here. We don't know either party. Is the wife prone to over-reaction, or is this not part of her character? Is the husband prone to cover up sin, or is he perhaps in a confessional relationship with other men.
We're trying to diagnose a problem long-distance. I know that you have to try to help people who write and ask, but this seems an insurmountable task.
12. Emily said the following at 3:13 PM on May 11:
Tami (#10) - While I can understand your reasoning on your second point, I only wish it were that simple.
I am dating a man (and planning to marry him) with sexual sin in his past before he became a Christian. He gained a lot of my respect when he humbly asked for my forgiveness. Yes, ultimately the sin was against God, but I find that I still have to forgive him also. His sin has caused me pain, and for that I am grateful for his apology.
Colossians 3:13 says "as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive."
Yes, I completely recognize Christ's work on the cross, and that my boyfriend truly is a new creation in Christ. That does not mean that his sin doesn't have consequences. It still affects us a couple.
As for the woman in the main post, I think the biggest concern is the fear and lack of trust she has with her husband. How heartbreaking to live with that nagging doubt that he may not remain faithful. I think she should be able to bring this up in a respectful way, explaining her concerns and fears to her husband, hopefully in a way that wouldn't offend him. Even just discussing this with her husband could be extremely beneficial, because I doubt he knows the extent of her fears.
13. BDB said the following at 4:01 PM on May 11:
The letter-writer's concerns are valid, if for no other reason than the need to agree on what is appropriate accountability.
I know some men who are quite willing to let their wives/girlfriends set the password on their computer and veto movie suggestions. Seems reasonable.
I know another couple where the guy never goes to lunch alone with a female co-worker. Given the rumors I've heard about co-workers who didn't have such a rule, I think it's reasonable to always grab a 3rd person. Seems reasonable.
If people have made bad choices only under the influence of alcohol, then it may not be necessary to worry about them sober.
There are other situations I'm aware of where the wife accused the husband of having an affair every time he spoke to another woman, and she became nasty to any attractive woman who got near him at work or church, quarreling with their spouses to drive them out of his social cirle, etc. Heck, men can do this to, and become very controlling about who people talk to. This is really unhealthy and driven by fear perhaps, but definitely not grace. It can screw up one's career, too.
And it may result in the spouse replacing broken friendships with new friendships kept a secret to avoid the conflict.
As C.S. Lewis observed about this kind of situation, it will be lucky for her - and lucky beyond her desserts, if there are not soon other secrets as well.
14. Kate said the following at 4:27 PM on May 11:
I disagree with this commenter when she says this is primarily her failure and not his, unless she has really left out a lot of information in her description of the situation. Not only was it HIS sinful history, but HE is also supposed to be leading and caring for her and their marriage. The fact that she can't talk to him about this and feels that it's her problem alone suggests to me that he has not been living up to his responsibilities as a husband.
Another thing that concerns me is that she mentions feeling unable to talk to people about this, along with her husband's refusal to participate in counseling and his unwillingness to have this information shared. Has he forbidden her from seeking spiritual guidance or professional counseling on her own? Or has she just felt too uncomfortable or ashamed to do so?
I wonder if her conflict is not so much disappointment surrounding her virginity at marriage, but more broadly she is concerned and upset by his overall attitude towards her or maybe his attitude about sin issues as exhibited by his behavior surrounding this past sexual experience?
A person who has truly repented, been forgiven, and forgiven himself still needs to gain self-awareness about the circumstances and the state of his heart and mind that led to him committing those acts. I see no legit reason why, if he's truly forgiven, he should be unwilling to describe this process of sin, pain, healing, and practical steps to avoid a recurrence to his wife and/or in front of a pastor or therapist. A reason why he wouldn't be willing to talk about it could be that he lacks this awareness, and so I think her concerns are warranted. He may also have not truly forgiven himself and is ashamed because of that, or ashamed because of pride in that he wants to maintain an illusion of a grander past in front of "somebody who respects him."
It could also truly be a communication problem between both spouses in which neither person expresses what he or she means to say, and neither person hears what the other means to say.
In any event, I can't help but suspect that this conflict, as the writer describes it, is much more about lack of communication and lack of willingness on his part to consider her needs and care for her than it is about their actual "mismatch" in sexual history.
15. the most frequent Kate said the following at 5:12 PM on May 11:
Ok I had to write my thoughts about Ted's comments (and I forgot to call myself by my new alias!).
I think you need to define what you mean by hurt. It sounds like you are talking about emotional pain and grief about the losses involved with the sin (and maybe its many potential trajectories).
I don't believe that after forgiveness and acceptance that one continues to have this "vulnerable wound," feeling such rash emotional pain when thinking of or describing the experience as if somebody were "prodding at a wound." I'm not sure how examining and describing a past overcome sin should bring up these feelings unless it's not really forgiven and overcome.
But there can be sources of enduring hurt that come with sin that involve its "trajectories." Even though God forgives and heals or takes away the eternal result of sin and the current spiritual death result of sin, trajectories from that sin can remain in your life and continue to cause problems and pain. Some examples of what I mean could be, getting an incurable STD, broken relationships in which the other party refuses to reconcile, being incarcerated for a crime and later unable to find work, etc. You could still have that hurt emotional response when you discover a new trajectory and get upset about how it's affecting your life, but again with understanding and acceptance that too fades. In my experience anyway.
I'm not trying to say I end up with a carefree attitude about past sins either. With that forgiveness and acceptance and awareness comes a grave understanding of what went wrong, why that behavior is a sin and is not part of God's plan and much more motivation and ability to make sure I don't. Sure I am sad about past periods when I caused myself to experience so much pain and miss out on so much good by living a life overcome by sin, but thinking of it, being asked about it, or describing it is not emotionally upsetting or painful in any way. In fact, I want to talk to others about it so that they might also learn about it without having to lose as much.
In terms of disclosure about sexual pasts, you may be unsurprised to learn that I find total transparency to be the way to go, although many couples may need to work on communication skills to make such conversations fruitful.
16. Tami said the following at 5:30 PM on May 11:
Emily -- sorry if it wasn't clear, but I was definitely not discounting the fact that it is hard to work through these things in relationship.
Past actions can have a damaging effect on the present. But if someone does not literally sin against *us*, is forgiveness something I have the place to offer? That is the question I am personally wrestling with. (It may or may not have relevance to your situation; I don't know anything about you beside what you wrote.)
My "new creation" comment had more to do with the idea of how long we let past sins influence our relationships with people (and the way we view ourselves). If there is repentance and right action, you indeed acknowledge you've done those things, but you need not let yourself or others be defined by the past.
Yes there are consequences. But how long do we allow ourselves to remain bound by them? Sin and brokenness need to be dealt with, but at a certain point we have to move forward. Note I'm not saying *excuse*, but move forward. And I am not saying it's easy. But I think it still has to be done.
Believe me, I am painfully aware of how hard it can be to forgive and move forward, and I know it is not easy.
17. Rachael said the following at 6:57 PM on May 11:
A commenter wrote this:
"Not only was it HIS sinful history, but HE is also supposed to be leading and caring for her and their marriage. "
--First, disclaimer. I write this as a sinful newlywed and have a long road of maturing ahead. But I have ideals that I hope my practice will catch up to at least more than it currently is.
So some idealistic thinking:
Please think this about yourself:
"*I* am the worst person in my marriage." (okay, not necessarily for abusive situations, and it may not be true, but still...)
--My brother very recently married, and the pastor pointed out the above concept. I like this alot (not in practice though).
Sure, we may try to change our spouse, sometimes it may 'work', often it will not.
WE OURSELVES need to deal with our REACTIONS. Ultimately our sin is against GOD.
In reality, I can treat things I don't like as if it is sin against me. But that is often erroneous thinking on my part. Often what I'm bothered about was or is not intentionally against me!! I think the errors might often lie in our minds and false feelings that are not in line with God's Word.
I often listen to my feelings more than objective truth - God's truth.
**
As for being bothered by someone's past and etceteras. That's me. But my husband and I married as virgins, and it's possible I may have been the worse sinner in the purity area in a previous relationship than he was in his past. But still, I often overlook my log and think about especially a couple of the past people - not all of them - even though I don't know them personally. Things can also bother me unnecessarily/insecure-ily about the present.
It's like insecurity/ jealousy/selfishness/impurity/wanting to be his one and only/best ever, mixed with other sins. It's haunting and ugly. It's ultimately MY sin.
And I think band-aids won't ultimately help. People like me may want affirmations from the significant other, or clear signs of priority. But, ultimately, I think, those aren't the answer. Sure, some positive efforts in the relationship (maybe affirmations in the non-bothered moments, increased time spent together, etc.) might help matters, but that's not necessarily the end-all solution.
If one can decide to 'let go' once and for all, that may help, if they actually do it. There was a link to a blog from the challies.com blog that contained a quote about the importance of letting go of the past.
As for practicalities...
*As for me right now, I think so far one helpful thing has been bringing darkness into light. Not just my husband knows about this issue. They may not all know every single detail, but it is known at least to a degree, and they want to help me.
*I've received this counsel: When the obsessive haunting thought comes, don't distract yourself, just let it come and don't fight it. Eventually the yucky reactions will decrease. I'm just passing this along as counsel, not as someone who's been knowingly helped by it.
*common sense that I don't regularly do but think would help if I did: pray often and cling to Scripture in the time of temptation.
*something I want to do: often admit my sin to God after I catch myself in the sin, soon after it happens. Even if I feel I can't on my own efforts turn from the sin, maybe it'll teach me to hate it. This seems more doable to me. My mom and I have talked about this potential strategy.
*be in communication with a spiritual mentor. I feel like my mom is like this person. Sometimes she finds out about things that bother me (and not only jealousy stuff) and she may give good simple advice or responses or spiritual insights. Sometimes I'm not appreciative of her opinions or don't pay deep attention to all of them, but I'm glad she is in my life and overall am glad that she gives me input.
*really, if possible, try to let go of all expectations. I cannot of my own power do this. But maybe one day I'll be better at this....And it can be so subtle. Perhaps whenever someone is disappointed, an expectation or hope, even if subconscious, may be let down a little, or a lot.
*remember the importance of self-sacrifice/selflessness (i'm bad at this), and it would be good if I more often thought of serving Christ. Ultimately, it is Christ we are serving.
*remember our ultimate satisfaction, or, 'enoughness' is found ONLY in Christ, and we might not feel ultimately satisified on this side of the grave....
*cultivate gratitude (I should do this)
*remember those in worse situations
*needs and wants; others' normal lives....think: what is "normal"? The grass isn't always greener on the other side, even the 'normal' side.
*a phrase from a song that has come to mind: "THIS is my story. THIS is my song." I don't know what the author intended "this" to replace, but recently "this" has come to me as like, 'my life', or, 'my situation'...
THIS is what we are given.
*NOTE: My husband is a wonderful person and we have many good moments together. This is a blog comment and am just quickly typing out words, words that might be of help to someone even if I'm not using them for 'help'. But maybe someone can glean something for when they are in the hard times or be encouraged to know they aren't the only ones who have internal feelings that they may deem as 'strange' or haunting. Christ is greater than our greatest weakness. And know that HE WHO STARTED A GOOD WORK IN YOU WILL BE FAITHFUL TO COMPLETE IT! Yay! And your story and victories in Christ might one day help another. And that is great encouraging, isn't it? :)
18. Kelly said the following at 7:17 PM on May 11:
I've felt somewhat that my own gift of virginity to him was undervalued.
THIS. Oh yes. How much pain has this caused so many women?
For me, a lot of pain. In two areas:
1) Knowing that the man I was dating at the time had shared that ultimate intimacy with another woman. It felt like he had 'taken' something rare and precious away from our future together.
The whole 'two become one flesh' - to me, intimacy is the same as the act of marriage. I struggle so much with accepting this, knowing that men I've dated have shared so much with someone who's not me.
With the boyfriend I wanted to marry, after he confessed his past to me, I went home and cried and cried. I could not get that number out of my head, even though he didn't share details, knowing it had happened several times was like a knife through the chest.
2) As above, my status being undervalued, or in one case, an actual problem for the man I was dating. He said, "I wish you weren't a virgin...then you wouldn't be so uptight about all of this." He made me feel like a stupid little kid (even though I was 28 at the time!)
At times, that attitude makes me quite angry and I sometimes think, "Well, why am I even BOTHERING to hold onto it, when it causes so many problems and isn't appreciated anyway!"
---
I'm still unmarried, still a virgin. And struggle with the knowledge that if I am fortunate to marry, the man will most likely have past experience and I will HAVE to get over it. I'm still working on that though.
I keep praying that God will lead me to acceptance and forgiveness.
19. Kathryn said the following at 8:38 PM on May 11:
I'm not a virgin. I told my boyfriend within a couple of days of him asking me out because I wanted to honour him and give him an out if it was something he decided was wrong (i.e. if having sex made me married with that man). Recently I shared my testimony with a number of girls in a relationship seminar at his church and they came up to me afterwards, thanking me for blessing them with that encouragement.
Sharing something like that is very painful for me. I was shaking and sweating when I told those girls. When Boyfriend told his parents, I was totally freaked out (and wished he'd talked with me more, or included me in that conversation - but we've since resolved that issue). Regarding the details of that time with my ex, I don't like to talk about it and Boyfriend knows that. There's a balance between healthy disclosure and unnecessary pain. Furthermore, thinking about the acts performed during that time either leads to incredible guilt and pain, or lust.
I need to take the lessons learnt and not forget them, all the while trying my darnedest not to ever think specifically about it. It's very hard for me! I've learnt that the Bible doesn't put such a great emphasis on virginity - rather, the emphasis is on holiness. I can have had sex before and still be holy because right now my behaviour in regard to sexual activity is pure and it's Jesus who makes me holy - not my actions. It's not about virgin/non virgin, but pure/not pure.
20. Farmer Pete said the following at 3:29 AM on May 12:
On this subject, I have to reconcile two things.
One is that "what God has called clean, let no man call unclean". Yes, i know that I'm quoting out of context, but it says what I want. Forgiveness works, and it is needed at all levels for a succesful marriage.
The other is that I have not maintained my own virginity because it was easy. I, and other like me, did so because it is important to us, and we believe that it is very important to God. How, then, am I to enter into marriage with someone who does not share one of my core values and most strongly held beliefs? Would it be wise for me to do so, with this as an issue between us. Marriage seems to throw up enough problems without lightly glossing over one such as this. The "get over it" attitude simply doesn't work.
So, no,,, virginity is not an absolute deal-breaker. However attitudes towards it something that I'd have to consider carefully beforehand.
21. Michela said the following at 9:07 AM on May 12:
Even though it is difficult, I think it's important to know at least some details of past sin. I don't mean explicit details, but I think perhaps more than just a number.
My fiance and I have been working through some stuff with this- with his past. Thankfully, we are both virgins. But still, knowing that he shared some intimate moments with another girl is heartwrenching for me.
My pastor had a sermon recently that really helped me with this. I was still struggling with hurt about this, like thinking about it every day and not being able to let it go. But my pastor talked about forgiveness as "choosing not to think about it anymore." It doesn't mean to "forget" about past sins. It just means to not dwell on them. This has helped me SO much in overcoming negative thoughts. I know that we will still have some things to work through, especially when we are married. I never dreamed I would marry someone with a past like that- but I'm realizing more and more that it is just evidence of God's grace and mercy.
How can I accept that grace and mercy for myself and then not extend it to others?
22. d said the following at 9:17 AM on May 12:
Followup: Your comments are all helpful; I appreciate the different perspectives given on my situation.
Maybe just mulling through these posts has helped me have some objectivity. So, I can choose to be always looking back over my shoulder at the past and feeling short-changed; or I can look at my present situation and be humbly grateful for what I have, which is much.
In trying to analyze why I've struggled so with the knowledge of his past, a few major factors stand out, namely:
1) his wildly improper timing for sharing past indiscretions (moments before a flight and long separation)
2) my perfectionistic tendencies, self righteousness, and monumental expectations of marriage
3)a health scare for me early in marriage thought to be an incurable STD (later found out to be something else entirely) for which I blamed him
4) a foolish promise after the disclosure to not ever bring it up again, which I thought represented true forgiveness at the time, but was actually a premature promise on my part, before it had been properly discussed and put to rest.
So it's a tangled web, as you can see. We had a rough start with not only these issues, but also with settling into a cross-cultural marriage as well. Knowing that he knew a language that I didn't, only fueled my insecurities that maybe someday the woman from his past would contact him and I wouldn't have a way to know.
A lot of details and history are in the mix when it comes to me finding peace with this and moving on. I think at this point I have much to learn about grace, and about the biblical meaning of love. I always "earned" my parents' love and approval by being good; so I struggle with defining love apart from earning it. I believe that marrying the man I did is just what I need for God to teach me some of these valuable truths. My husband is a prince of a man; he's given me no reason to doubt him; I should simply trust him and be happy. We'll keep going forward with God and see what a beautiful tapestry He will weave with our lives, imperfect though they be.
Blessings.
p.s. to Kelly (#18): I'd encourage you to still cherish your virginity. If no one else (even a future husband) can properly value it, God does. Sexual involvement on your part before marriage, would only cause you bigger problems and cause for self-reproach later. I've had enough problems dealing with my husband's past; I can't imagine trying to deal with my own at the same time.
23. JuliaH said the following at 10:26 AM on May 12:
Your virginity is not a "gift" it is obedience - your reasonable service towards the Lord. When you set yourself up thinking that you are somehow more "special" because of your obedience that is pride. When you refuse to let go of someone's past(when they have sincerely repented) that is unforgiveness. When you demand to know sordid details of past sin that the other person is holding back out of a desire to not hurt you (and yes, usually they will,) that is foolishness. Perhaps this couple should seek counseling, not for his past sins, but for her inability to move on. Not all sins necessarily need to be "worked through" in counseling and ultimately, the reason that people sin is their sinful nature - despite what secular psychology might tell you.
24. NataliaG said the following at 1:52 PM on May 12:
To me it seems that the problem here is self-righteousness of a woman, somehow she feel he must pay for his sins to her, because she feels so righteous herself. And insecure. Did she ever consider how he might feel, knowing he did it, and there is no way that he could change that now? Would she feel better if she makes him feel worse? Probably, yes, she would feel that this has been "worked through" and he received the due "penalty" for this sin finally, so hopefully, he is now condemned enough not to dare to do it again. But God doesn't do this to people. Upon repentance He gives us inconditional love, grace and trust. To love someone - is to trust him. If she loves her husband, she would trust him that he will never sin against her. And she would trust God to help him stand. The Bible says, love always trusts. And also: "who are you to judge someone else's servant? to his own master he stands or falls'.
25. d said the following at 6:26 AM on May 13:
I'll admit that I may have had underlying self-righteousness problems which prompted the disappointment and issues with getting past the sexual sin. But come on--wanting to hurt my husband, nagging him to reveal "sordid details", trying to make him feel condemned or pay some kind of penalty to me--that's ridiculous. If I was bent on harming him, I'd constantly confront him about it instead of trying to find a way to deal with it on my own, as I have.
I believe I'm on the right road now and appreciate the insights. But I don't think that taking a harsh condemning attitude toward the problem I've raised is appropriate. It's the very realistic picture of what happens when sin is present--whether it's his sin or my sin; believe me we're both guilty of displeasing God, which is what ultimately matters. My point here is that the problems we've had because of premarital sex issues ARE present in marriage; so how is it best to deal with them when they do arise? I brought this up because I know that many people have and will have to deal with it sooner or later.
Blessings.
26. IMO said the following at 1:23 PM on May 13:
d,
I 100% agree. NataliaG's comment was completely rude and unnecessary. It's more a reflection of NataliaG's views, then an actual constructive opinion.
I like what Kate (#14 and #15) wrote...I think she raises some good questions.
27. brx said the following at 1:39 PM on May 13:
Re: Kelly [#18]
...I sometimes think, "Well, why am I even BOTHERING to hold onto it, when it causes so many problems and isn't appreciated anyway!"
Hold on to it because your love for Christ is through your obedience to Jesus. [some good points JuliaH #23]
A more pertinent question for you, unmarried Kelly, may be "Why be BOTHERING to hold on to THAT guy - who doesn't appreciate your striving to be obedient to Christ??"
I pray you develop a confident knowledge and security in Christ's love for you - a solid understanding of your value in Him - such that you will never feel stupid for being a little awkward while trying to do what is right and good.
Grace, peace, and confident adventures with the awkward
28. brx said the following at 1:51 PM on May 13:
It seems to me,
when these things are brought to light, for married couples, they are not his issues or her issues. They are OUR issues TOGETHER.
The role of a counselor/therapist is to facilitate communication and understanding, NOT to assign blame. Fear, guilt, pride, and insecurities are walls that prevent healthy communication for everyone. I'd hazard to say 100% of couples need help in overcoming those walls - whether that help comes from the Truth in the Bible, the Holy Spirit, professional counseling, or wise mentors and peers, or some combination, is another question. And, whether we act rightly on that help is yet another question.
Some suggestions:
DON'T ask or tell each other about numbers and sordid details - that only provides material for the Enemy to taunt you with later. The important thing is understanding the current mental and physical condition (which are also spiritual).
When buying a car, knowing how many miles it has driven is not nearly as important as knowing the actual current condition of the vehicle - its road-worthiness. A vehicle with 100k miles might be in top shape and ready to go 200k more while another vehicle with only 15k miles might be in need of some serious and expensive overhauling! - NO, that's not justification to test-drive all the features before marrying! (don't believe the hype, but consider the reputation of the manufacturer)
Grace, peace, and adventures in visits with qualified mechanics :)
29. Candice Watters said the following at 2:42 PM on May 13:
Though I find Ted's comments and suggestions helpful, I'm not sure his advice--"Perhaps by together reviewing the depth of sin, and how much has been forgiven, both husband and wife will have a greater appreciation of grace."-- will go very far is husband isn't even willing to talk about it.
That's concerning. I'm also wondering if the husband asked his wife for her forgiveness. She says he was repentant. But to her? That would go a long way to helping her heal, I believe.
30. Cassandra said the following at 3:42 PM on May 13:
We never properly dealt with it before marriage; I suggested counseling during engagement and he was horrified that I'd consider making him that vulnerable in front of people who respected him. He felt it would be a betrayal of his confidence, since he was repentant. I don't think he could understand my need to work through it — he'd already worked through it in his heart.
I feel a ton of sympathy for this woman. Yes, we do need to forgive our partners for their sins sexual and otherwise, but that does not mean that the consequences of the sin doesn't need to be dealt with.
This woman is hurting and the last thing we should be doing is telling her she needs to forgive him and get over it. She does need to forgive him, but it's more complicated than that. She needs compassion right now, not religious imperatives. Forgiveness is a process.
I think premarital counseling is almost always a good idea; many pastors require it before they will officiate your ceremony. I think it can only help. How much more so if there are unresolved emotions to be worked through regarding someone's past. I'm very sorry that he didn't want to go with you. That would bother me too. Maybe he'll go with you now? I think it's a good idea, since clearly this is still bothering you. Hugs.
31. MarkS said the following at 7:19 PM on Jun 3:
Forget about forgiveness and think about healing and restoration.
Before you get on me about forgiveness, ask yourself for what are you forgiving? If you're talking about infidelity that's another post entirely. But we are talking here about a spouse's past life (prior to being saved or getting right with God).
God forgave them (we assume a repentant heart) but he or she never sinned against the current spouse or spouse to be. Talk of forgiving them is because you feel hurt by what they did before they knew you, and that is pride.
There are only two concerns for the current relationship. 1) Have they truly turned from prior behavior? 2) Keeping your current spouse pure, this IS your reponsibility.
Consider what the apostle Paul said about doing what he knew was wrong. Also consider a book called the Life Model, it is probably on a Focus book shelf somewhere. It is all about healing in a Godly way. It is a lief long process and no one is immune to the effects of sin. We were meant to grow a certain way but the fall sends us off track. Even with the best healing on the simplest sin, the effects will always be there. This is why lust is "sinning against your own body" because it changes the biological reaction to certain stimuli. This makes it harder for a man to resist future temptation.
Also consider 2 series of sermons from Jeff Miller on bible.org "Sex a 12 step program for men" and "studies in the song of songs". This is VERY good material and one of the points he brings up is that lust and money are the only two things where the Bible tells us to FLEE from temptation. Where else we should stand strong but we are simply not able to withstand a temptation so base as sex.
Accountability is a Biblical principle which can't be understated. I should think that if the man (or woman) said "I don't trust myself, I need your help." that you would trust them so much more.
It is not over, and never will be, and he needs his spouse all in. All the time.
Another angle is that with our identity in Christ, and His power complete in our weekness, ideally we should be eager to expose all sin. It seems to me that reluctance to rip off the scab indicates it ain't dealt with yet.