Do You Respect Muslims? by Motte Brown on 05/20/2009 at 11:34 AM

Dr. Albert Mohler wrote a delineative article last week about Christians respecting other religions. It's something I struggle with, particularly regarding Islam.

There's a teacher in my church from Egypt who's a expert on Islam. He speaks with great passion about his love for Muslims and desire to see them come to know the Lord. He grieves about the events of 9/11, both the loss of innocent life and its effect on evangelizing the 10/40 window.

The stories he tells of Muslims loving Christians who work and live alongside them in Muslim countries are powerful. There's one testimony in particular that I'll always remember (though not in enough detail to recount here).

But even while he's providing me with a foundation of respect through the power of story, in the back of my mind, I can't help but also remember that large percentages (40-70 percent) of Muslims in Muslim countries agree with terrorism. And in the west, it's as high as one in five.

So how do I respect a religion whose followers want to kill me? Or the Muslims who support those that plot and plan to?

What's interesting about Dr. Mohler's article is that he never goes there. The fact that large percentages of Muslims may think it perfectly acceptable for someone to kill him seems perfectly beside the point. His sole focus is on their need for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As for respect, Dr. Mohler says we should respect Muslims, but not Islam.

Thus, evangelical Christians may respect the sincerity with which Muslims hold their beliefs, but we cannot respect the beliefs themselves. We can respect Muslim people for their contributions to human welfare, scholarship, and culture. We can respect the brilliance of Muslim scholarship in the medieval era and the wonders of Islamic art and architecture. But we cannot respect a belief system that denies the truth of the gospel, insists that Jesus was not God's Son, and takes millions of souls captive.

Do You Respect Muslims? by Motte Brown on 05/20/2009 at 11:34 AM

Dr. Albert Mohler wrote a delineative article last week about Christians respecting other religions. It's something I struggle with, particularly regarding Islam.

There's a teacher in my church from Egypt who's a expert on Islam. He speaks with great passion about his love for Muslims and desire to see them come to know the Lord. He grieves about the events of 9/11, both the loss of innocent life and its effect on evangelizing the 10/40 window.

The stories he tells of Muslims loving Christians who work and live alongside them in Muslim countries are powerful. There's one testimony in particular that I'll always remember (though not in enough detail to recount here).

But even while he's providing me with a foundation of respect through the power of story, in the back of my mind, I can't help but also remember that large percentages (40-70 percent) of Muslims in Muslim countries agree with terrorism. And in the west, it's as high as one in five.

So how do I respect a religion whose followers want to kill me? Or the Muslims who support those that plot and plan to?

What's interesting about Dr. Mohler's article is that he never goes there. The fact that large percentages of Muslims may think it perfectly acceptable for someone to kill him seems perfectly beside the point. His sole focus is on their need for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As for respect, Dr. Mohler says we should respect Muslims, but not Islam.

Thus, evangelical Christians may respect the sincerity with which Muslims hold their beliefs, but we cannot respect the beliefs themselves. We can respect Muslim people for their contributions to human welfare, scholarship, and culture. We can respect the brilliance of Muslim scholarship in the medieval era and the wonders of Islamic art and architecture. But we cannot respect a belief system that denies the truth of the gospel, insists that Jesus was not God's Son, and takes millions of souls captive.

Comments

[1. Ronnica said the following at 11:54 AM on May 20:]

1

I've always had a special place in my heart for Muslims, but I'm sure that's been helped by visiting a Muslim country and getting to know the people. But like Dr. Mohler points out, I do not honor and respect a religion that denies Jesus Christ as God.

[2. Scott said the following at 12:02 PM on May 20:]

2

I don't mean this to sound trite, but it seems pretty simple to me. Jesus said “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." (Luke 6:27,28)

Are we going to obey Him or not?

I don't see an escape clause here. Not if they hate us, not if they threaten us (or our loved ones), not if we disagree with their belief system, not if we deem their actions evil.

That's hard. Jesus didn't say it was easy, He just told us to do it. Do I wrestle with this? Absolutely. But it seems like we must continue to wrestle with it, not be content to just say we can't follow it.

[3. Jordan Peacock said the following at 12:21 PM on May 20:]

3

It has been absolutely ridiculous, the amount of concern, consternation, caveats and other hemming and hawing Christians have given me about have any interaction at all with the Muslims in my local community - God forbid that I befriend one or speak frankly about spirituality with another.

Everyone should go listen to the song 'Allah Allah Allah' by mewithoutYou now.

[4. IMO said the following at 12:25 PM on May 20:]

4

Scott,
That verse is applicable if the post was titled, "Do you love Muslims?"

See comment #1 for what the post is really getting at. Pretty simple to me.

[5. Texas Craig said the following at 12:32 PM on May 20:]

5

Scott:

Yes, yes, yes! There is no place for a follower of Christ to do anything but love Muslims. That is why it is so disheartening to me to hear so-called "Christians" comment that they would like to "send them to Allah" or "wipe them out." Too often, the church has bought into the cultural view that we need to fight Muslims because they want us dead. Who cares if they want us dead? Didn't the disciples usually end up martyred? But, their enemy was not people, but rather spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly realm. Moreover, they did not seek to "fight" people, but rather they sought to preach the gospel in season and out of season. That is our calling -- not to fight Muslim terrorists!

[6. Mo said the following at 12:34 PM on May 20:]

6

Well stated. Respect and love the persons, but not their ideology.

Islam is the most intolerant religion on the face of the earth. Those non-Muslims who continue to defend it the most are those who refuse to read the Koran. If they did, they'd see the hatred that is in it from start to finish. I was stunned when I read it last year. It was so much worse than I ever could have imagined. In fact, upon my first try I got to about page 65 and put it down for months! That's how difficult it was to get through. Not difficult to understand, but difficult to read such ugly words.

I have no respect for a religion that teaches subjugation, conversion or death as the only options for us 'infidels'.

[7. Kevin said the following at 12:37 PM on May 20:]

7

Why is it ok to base your beliefs off a book (the Bible), but not ok to base your beliefs off a book (the Quran)?

[8. Bree said the following at 12:55 PM on May 20:]

8

I agree 100% with Scott, it's not difficult to understand how the Lord has intended us to treat each other. This applies to everyone we disagree with. Yes you can disagree, but we need to be respectful, humble and loving to all people, period. Even keeping in mind the percentage of the Muslim population that are neutral or friendly to Christians, it is the ones who are hardened against us that need our kindness and love the most. Pray, people! Ask for ways to spread Christ's love by blessing those who hate him.

[9. obewan said the following at 1:20 PM on May 20:]

9

So how do I respect a religion whose followers want to kill me? Or support those who plot and plan to? (Motte)
-------------------------------------
That is a hard question for me to swallow because of the example I am thinking of.

How did Jesus show respect for those who plotted to kill him?

[10. Annika said the following at 1:33 PM on May 20:]

10

I find it easier to respect people of ANY faith than I do atheists. While they may not accept Jesus, they at least believe in one, sovereign God, and believe that living according to His precepts (even if we disagree about what those are) is essential to happiness and salvation. I find this more worthy of respect than atheists or agnostics, who will not admit to submitting to any higher power at all.

[11. Bernie said the following at 1:42 PM on May 20:]

11

I took a course this year at a Christian college called "Understanding Islam", and God totally opened my eyes and my heart to Muslims and finding ways to pray and minister to them.

They're trying so hard to seek God, even seeking him harder than most Christians are, but there is such a great misunderstanding about the character of God and who Jesus is. They're dedicated, but taught not to question anything, and live in ritual and the fear of God without understanding the love of God.

If we truly are dead to self, and understand that souls are more valuable to God than anything, how can we NOT be compassionate towards lifting the veil for these people and sharing Jesus with them in a way they'll understand?

[12. Reid said the following at 1:51 PM on May 20:]

12

Statistics shouldn't be used to rationalize blanket disrespect of a religious group.

Has anyone ever read or heard the myriad statistics that indicate how slight the correlation is between Christianity and lower rates of sinful behavior? Someone could use those consistent findings to rationalize that Christians as a group are hypocritical. Then this person meets you, finds out what you believe, and automatically assumes you are a hypocrite. Have the statistics made it any more fair?

[13. Rima said the following at 2:12 PM on May 20:]

13

I'm an American citizen born to Lebanese parents. As a result, I've had the opportunity to spend time in the Middle East and bits of Africa. Many of the Muslims that I have interacted with have shown me so much kindness and hospitality; yet, at the same time, I have seen men behave terribly in the name of Islam.

One thing I have noticed is that those in the former category accept Islam as the only truth available to them, while those in the latter group use Islam as a means to a selfish end. Though united in name, the two groups function on completely different levels. When I interact with Muslims, it's helpful to remember this diversity.

Dr. Mohler summed up the appropriate Christian response--to Islam and all other non-Biblical positions--with great wisdom.

In my experience, I have found the most important thing that aids in loving and respecting Muslims (but not Islam) is to remember that before the cross we are all the same.

[14. anonymous said the following at 2:38 PM on May 20:]

14

The problem I have with "Respect the Muslims but not their beliefs" is that, somehow, it never seems to work out that way. Somehow, it always works out that Muslims end up being "hated" anyway. For some people, Islam is a huge part of their lives, and if you are going to shut your eyes to that and "disrespect" that part of their life, you will never get to know them, or have any kind of meaningful relationship with them at all, since you are rejecting something that is an essential part of who they are. Scott, I like what you had to say. Bernie, I think you are really on to something.
Two of the men I have had the most respect for in my life were both Muslim imams. One was a refugee from Afghanistan. He fled for days over the mountains when the Communists overran Afghanistan, and got to Pakistan with bloodied feet. He is one of the most "Godly" men I've ever known, as far as integrity, moral character, and kindness goes. But if my mind had been full of "I hate the Islamic religion. It is so intolerant and evil!" I would never have given him a chance. I'm glad that I did, because he is an example to me of what a "god-fearing" person should be like. Mo, I've read the Koran, and I don't know what you're talking about. I think people read into the Koran (and other religious texts) exactly what they want to read into them. You came to the Koran expecting to hate it, and you found what you wanted. (Note: Please do not take this to mean that I believe the Koran is holy scripture or even that I deny that there could be offensive passages in it.) There are people who think the Bible is a book of intolerance and that it promotes genocide. There are people who are upset by the fact that God sent two bears to maul two young boys for insulting one of God's prophets.
The Koran starts out by praising God: "Praise be to God. The Lord of the Worlds. Thee do we worship, and thine aid do we seek." (Surah al-fatihah)In my line of work, I could not have gotten very far if I'd had an intolerant view of the Islamic religion. Al Mohler can afford to be intolerant. Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. God Bless everyone, whatever attitude you decide to take for yourselves.

[15. Melisssa S. said the following at 3:19 PM on May 20:]

15

Great reminder, Motte. It's so easy to forget about the person when you're feeling outrage against their religion. I don't know any Muslims, myself, but I do know people who have been persecuted by them and it's important to remember that Muslims need Jesus just like I do.

Kevin #7- Well, it's the difference between following a book (love your enemies, pray for those that mistreat you for Jesus' sake, Jesus is the only way to salvation)...

and following a book (kill your enemies, mutilate those who cross your beliefs, if you do enough good things you might get to heaven).

It's the difference between any two books where one has credentials, authenticity, and positive life-changing ability) and the other just doesn't. Kind of like conflicting diet advice: eat eggs! don't eat eggs! eat carbs! don't eat carbs!! eat protein! don't eat protein!!

Better figure out which book is a good one to base your life and salvation on because they both can't be right.

[16. Giselle Aguiar said the following at 3:27 PM on May 20:]

16

Jesus calls us to love one another and pray for our enemies. We must respect other people no mater what they believe in or what they practice. If we try to force the truth upon them, all that will accomplish is antagonism. We need to show love - the love of Christ through our actions and words. We need to live our lives as Christ taught us - showing compassion.

[17. Rachael said the following at 4:11 PM on May 20:]

17

You hear it said, "Love the person, hate the sinner."

I think I can understand the "Love the person, hate the sin" if it comes to a non-believer and separating the religion vs. the person.

Or if someone were to introduce me to an imprisoned mass-murderer, I might have some compassion on him or not feel too strongly against him if I didn't personally know the people who he killed. I don't know; it's hypothetical. If he killed someone I knew or loved, I might feel differently.

But, if the person's behaviors (irrespective of religion) specifically affected my feelings negatively, it would be hard for me to clearly see a difference between not respecting those behaviors and not respecting the person...

[18. Belle said the following at 4:15 PM on May 20:]

18

Great piece. I have a very close, and wonderful friend who is Muslim. She is also one of the kindest, and genuine people I have every met. While she is not a Christian, I always see what Christ wants me to be in her actions.

But since we live in a 'conservative' and white area, many people torment her for her religion. I have heard many people ask if she is related to Bin Laddan (I know I misspelled it!!). She is not though.

But piece is very good. I think we all need to respect the people of other religions, faiths, whatever, but not what they believe. Just like Christ.

[19. BDB said the following at 5:13 PM on May 20:]

19

It is an interesting question.

I know a Muslim woman who was educated at Catholic schools in the Middle East. Her parents wanted her to have an American education, and they allowed her to opt out of the religious portions. When she tried to do the same - enroll her children in Catholic school here they were apparently suspicious of her motives and refused.

A Sikh family near my parents got hassled a lot after 9/11 because of the turban. But they're not Muslim. Their solution was to put a Texas-sized American Flag out front of their house.

Part of this discussion needs to be political. In America, there are lots of people living side-by-side peacefully that are at war in other parts of the world. We can definitely debate how much of that is religious, how much is ethnic, and how much is economic interests at play. But I do believe it is entirely appropriate to challenge those who come to America to really think through their worldview - whether religious or ethnic - and identify what parts of that worldview, if any, that might conflict with living with their neighbor peacefully.

Heck, the UK had several centuries of Protestants and Catholics killing each other. That doesn't happen any more, does it?

Oops...just remembered Northern Ireland...(SIGH)

[20. Charity said the following at 6:19 PM on May 20:]

20

#7 I understand your question, Kevin, and I am sure you're not the only one who wonders about this. In my opinion, the difference is a mighty big one. I absolutely believe (as do most Christians) that the Bible is God's inerrant, perfect, powerful Word. That being said, unlike orthodox Muslims, Christian beliefs are not only tied to our scriptures; they are based on the eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many Christians have lived (and currently live) without ever having the privilege of reading or even touching a Bible. There have been many times that dictatorial leaders have tried to crush the Christian faith by banning or burning the word of God, but their efforts have always been in vain because our faith is rooted in the only living and active God.

[21. Leah said the following at 6:23 PM on May 20:]

21

Just to point out... your question on Facebook was not "Do you respect Islam", it was "Do you respect Muslims". Big difference.

Kevin (7) - our issue with Muslims has nothing to do with the fact they base their beliefs off a book. It's the content of the book which we take issue with. Your comment is as absurd as saying "Why is it ok for a 7 year old to watch a movie (Cinderella) but not ok for a 7 year old to watch a movie (Sin City)?"

IMO (4) - Respecting someone is usually part of loving them. Comment #1 specified that she does not respect the religion, but I'm sure she still respects the people. None of what she said is contrary to what Scott (2) said.

Motte, I don't think any Christian would advocate respecting Islam. But there is no way we can say this equates with not respecting Muslims, and I have no idea how you can even ask the question about whether we should respect Muslims. The idea that we should think lower of one type of people because of their religion is ridiculous.

[22. Kevin said the following at 6:32 PM on May 20:]

22

Have you read the Quran Melisssa?

"It's the difference between any two books where one has credentials, authenticity, and positive life-changing ability) and the other just doesn't."

I'm not sure what credentials you're talking about (as if Paul somehow has more than Mohammad). I'm not sure how you consider the Quran to be un-authentic. And I'd be interested to see how many Muslims would tell you that the Quran did not change their lives in a positive way.

"Better figure out which book is a good one to base your life and salvation on because they both can't be right."

You're right, they both can't be right. But they both CAN be wrong. Not that that's necessarily the case, but it's a possibility.

[23. Kellie said the following at 6:57 PM on May 20:]

23

I used to work with a lady who was muslim. She was probably my favorite co-worker as she was cheerful, kind and had a great sense of humor. But she got a lot of grief from clients for wearing her head scarf.

[24. Chris said the following at 7:01 PM on May 20:]

24

Annika writes:

"I find it easier to respect people of ANY faith than I do atheists. While they may not accept Jesus, they at least believe in one, sovereign God, and believe that living according to His precepts (even if we disagree about what those are) is essential to happiness and salvation. I find this more worthy of respect than atheists or agnostics, who will not admit to submitting to any higher power at all."

Does ANY faith include Buddhism? Buddhism really doesn't have a god. Then again, neither does Hinduism. Well, some branches do, but others don't and there are also multiple gods in some branches.

Hop on over to Wikipedia and search the list of religions for more. You'll find some that don't include a concept of a sovereign god or perhaps include multiple gods/spirits/forces/etc. Would adherents to these garner more respect from you than atheists? Would they receive less than Muslims?

And while we're on the subject, who would you respect more, a) an atheist who has thought long and hard about religion/faith/afterlife/god/etc. and decided there can be no god or b) someone who believes a particular religion because that's the way he was raised and sees no reason to change?

You can find ignorant atheists who think religion is just "stupid" or a crutch for the "weak" and so forth. Then again, you can find some that are highly knowledgeable about religion and faith and may even know more about the Bible than you. You'll find them as diverse as Christians.

Do these latter individuals deserve less respect than Muslims?

[25. Texas Craig said the following at 7:08 PM on May 20:]

25

BDB (#19) wrote "Their solution was to put a Texas-sized American Flag out front of their house."

When I first read that, I thought they put a Texas flag up, and I thought to myself "rock on!" :-) Then I realized I read it too quickly. Still a cool flag though!
;-)

[26. farmer Tom said the following at 9:41 PM on May 20:]

26

re·spect

1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern.

n.

1. A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem. See Synonyms at regard.
2. The state of being regarded with honor or esteem.
3. Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.

Sometimes we must define our terms before we can have a coherent discussion.

Using the above definitions of respect, I can not Biblically respect a Muslim. They are deceived and believe the deceiver.

So then we can show them the love of Jesus Christ, but to give them deferential regard or to honor them makes a mockery of the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ said, " I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father, but by me." Muslims do not believe that statement, therefore they are not to be regarded as one would regard a brother and/or sister in Jesus Christ.

Pray for their salvation, witness to them, show them the truth of the gospel, but do not respect their false belief system and it's Satanic lies.

[27. BDB said the following at 11:18 PM on May 20:]

27

Texas Craig (#25) wrote:

>>When I first read that, I thought they put a Texas flag up, and I thought to myself "rock on!" :-)<<

Well, that might be a little TOO obvious in Washington...but you get my meaning. This was not a 3x5 Home Depot flag...big ol permanent flag pole and everything.

But it's understandable that they wanted to make sure everyone knew where their loyalties lie. And there are a lot of immigrants who are in the U.S. because they understand freedom is important - otherwise they never would have left their home country.

[28. Texas Craig said the following at 11:54 PM on May 20:]

28

Farmer Tom has it right, that we must agree upon a definition before we can answer a question. I am not sure whether I agree with his definition or not. Here is why:

1 Peter 2:17 says: "Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king."

Similarly, 1 Peter 3:15 says: "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."

Both of those passages indicate that we are to act out of respect regardless of the person. In the first passage, we are to show respect to "everyone." (not limited to believers or certain groups). In the second passage, we are to share the gospel with gentleness and respect. This is presumably directed toward an unbeliever, since that is who we are primarily expected to share the basis of our hope.

So, respect in those situations is given regardless of the person. As such, I would say the Bible tells me that I should show respect to a Muslim (or anyone, for that matter).

[29. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 12:27 AM on May 21:]

29

Kevin (#22),

Logically speaking, why would a Christian *not* think that Paul has more "credentials" than Mohammad, as Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God, and Paul was one of Jesus's apostles?

Of course, this has everything to do with what one considers to be "credentials" in the first place and with how one even evaluates such things. How do you evaluate spiritual "credentials," Kevin?

Also logically speaking, if a person believes that Paul and Mohammad both have equal "credentials," why would that person even *be* a Christian?

Again, this really gets down to what one considers to be "credentials," spiritually speaking, in the first place. One's answer to that question will largely determine where one stands in relation to the God of the Bible.

[30. Hannah said the following at 12:44 AM on May 21:]

30

From my experiences studying and working in two different Islamic countries over the past few years as well as visiting several others, I have met people with quite a range of idealogies.

I spent time in an Arab country which I found to be pretty religiously conservative. I met people who supported the insurgency in Iraq, who practiced polygamy, and who aggressively tried to convert me to Islam. But in the country where I am currently (a region dominated by a non-Arab minority group in an Arab country) people are much more open-minded. I have met people here who are very interested in reading the Bible and have visited church when invited by their Christian friends, support the US in Iraq, and are against polygamy. So, a lot of the "40-70%" probably depends on what ethnic group, what country, what their experiences are with Christians, etc.

But in any case, both the fanatical and the open-minded are all equally close to my heart and the subject of many, many prayers. :-) I love them both, and I will even say that I think "fanatacism" can be a gift ... I dream that when those kind of people come to Jesus they will have a very zealous devotion to him that someone with a more tolerant personality won't necessarily have. Look at Saul of Tarsus. He was a "fanatic" before his conversion, and I think he stayed a "fanatic" after his conversion ... only now he was a fanatic for the right cause. ;-)

[31. Lola said the following at 3:51 AM on May 21:]

31

I don't have any problem respecting or loving Muslims or people of other religions. First because I remember that they too are created in the image of God, in fact it's obvious. Secondly because I know that God loves them passionately and wants them in His Kingdom. Thirdly, I love God. Fourthly, it was for the unsaved; for sinners that Jesus suffered and died on the cross . Furthermore, I was once lost like they are until I was saved by grace and I believe that they too can be saved.

I'm not significantly concerned about the fact that Muslims might want me dead to the extent that I could become unable to respect them. I'm more passionate and saddened by the fact that they (people of other faiths) will spend eternity in hell unless they come to acknowledge that Jesus is Saviour and the only way to the God.

[32. anonymous said the following at 5:50 AM on May 21:]

32

so Farmer Tom, by your own definition, you cannot respect any non-Christians? Do you think Jesus would act the same way?

[33. Dan Gill said the following at 7:48 AM on May 21:]

33

I have always respected Muslims in general, and I have had friendships with some Muslims in particular. I do find it hard to respect those of the radical persuasion who want to kill me and mine. That's my struggle.

[34. Joyce said the following at 8:59 AM on May 21:]

34

Yes, I respect Muslims. In fact, I also pray for them and their conversion.

[35. k. said the following at 10:05 AM on May 21:]

35

Let's flip that around: do you want them to respect us?

[36. Nate said the following at 10:26 AM on May 21:]

36

Kevin (#7 and 22):

Have you ever read the Qur'an? I'm guessing you have--in English, which Muslims would say isn't really the Qur'an.

At any rate, if you read it critically (i.e., subject it to the same sort of textual criticism and exegesis that you would the Bible), you realize pretty quickly (a) how badly it's written (in Arabic), and (b) how much awful content is mixed in with the more vanilla "praise be to God" stuff.

For example, there are grammatical errors. Muslims try to dance around that as best they can, but I have yet to see a reason better than "it's in the Qur'an so it's correct grammar." Arabic grammars were written only AFTER the Qur'an, and they were based on pre-Islamic poetry and the Qur'an. Although if in doubt, they made the grammar fit what was in the Qur'an, even if it was abnormal.

An example of one such grammatical error: in 5:69, the word "saabi'uun" is nominative when it ought to be genitive. That's a kindergarten mistake for an Arabic speaker. Muslims will say it's for rhetorical effect. Nope. The exact same phrase appears in 22:17, and there the word is correctly declined as "saabi'iin." One of them is right, but not both.

I might point out that I have a master's in linguistics. And I speak Arabic.

Arab historians even point out that Muhammad's followers pointed out the errors to the third caliph, 'Uthman ibn 'Affan. He replied that it doesn't change "haraam" (forbidden) to "halaal" (clean). But that's a huge admission, because Muslims have backed themselves into a corner by saying that the Qur'an is (a) eternal, (b) infallible, and (c) a miracle of God. Somehow grammatical errors don't seem to fit those designations.

How all of that fits into the context of Muslim evangelism is beyond the scope of what I'm saying here; my point is that if you strip away the facade that Muslims have erected over the Qur'an and look at its content objectively, you realize what a mistaken and destructive piece of "literature" it actually is. And how VASTLY different it is from the Bible.

(Yes, I know people will yell about "genocide" in the OT. Most of them are just repeating something they've heard from somewhere else. Read the OT, research the history of the ANE, and see if you feel differently.)

So please, no nonsense about how noble the Qur'an is. It's not.

Last point: I liked #2. Well said. I grew up in a Muslim area of West Africa and went to high school in an Asian country. I had more Muslim friends in the first 20 years of my life than Christian. I love them dearly, but it's the deception they've been born into and raised amid that I have zero respect for.

[37. Kevin said the following at 11:35 AM on May 21:]

37

Christopher #29.

"Logically speaking, why would a Christian *not* think that Paul has more "credentials" than Mohammad, as Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God, and Paul was one of Jesus's apostles?"

Well, logically speaking, one would have to think that Paul has better "credentials" than Mohammad BEFORE becoming a Christian. I mean, why would someone believe Paul's writings (or any of the Bible's writings) instead of Mohammad's writings without knowing which writer(s) has better credentials first? That is something a person should find out before making the decision to follow the Bible instead of the Quran, or vice versa.

What you're saying is that Christians think the Bible has better credentials because they follow its writings (they're Christian). But that sounds backwards. Shouldn't Christians follow the Bible's writings BECAUSE it has better credentials? And if that's the case, knowing the credentials comes before being a Christian. So it should be that you're a Christian because you think Paul has better credentials than Mohammad, not that you think Paul has better credentials than Mohammad because you're Christian.

It's like saying classical music is good because you listen to it. But it should be that you listen to it because it's good.

So again, how do you figure that Paul's credentials are better than Mohammad's?

"How do you evaluate spiritual "credentials," Kevin?"

Well, seeing as how Paul (and the rest of the Bible's writers) and Mohammad are dead, I'd say the only credentials a dead guy's writings have is proof. And neither Paul nor Mohammad have much of that. But, that's an opinion, and it could be wrong.

Obviously a Christian will think that Paul has much more proof of his claims than Mohammad does, and a Muslim will think that Mohammad has much more proof of his clams than Paul does. However, the flaw there is that most Christians haven't read the Quran and most Muslims haven't read the Bible, so their arguments on which book has more proof (better credentials) are pretty flawed.

Personally, I don't think either book offers much for credentials, but this isn't about me, it's about you. And since my original question has been branched off into the credentials category, I'll ask again; What credentials are you referring to, and how do you figure that Paul (or any other Biblical writer) has more than Mohammad?

And Nate #36, you're right. I have read it in English, and I pretty much agree with you. In my opinion the Quran is a pretty lame excuse for "the word of God" both in origin and in logic. I don't cling to the Quran as truth or try to defend it as such or anything like that.

On the other hand, again in my opinion, the Bible isn't a whole lot better, especially when you consider its evolution throughout history (although I DO think it is better than the Quran).

[38. farmer Tom said the following at 12:06 PM on May 21:]

38

32. anonymous, no I do not respect unbelievers. They are wrong. They do not know or understand the person and work of Jesus Christ.

I will treat them with dignity because they are created in the image of God. I will be polite and kind, pray for their salvation, and love them. But, I do not respect them.

28. Texas Craig, here's the deal, you quoted from some translation which, I do not know, and you did not give a source. The KJV does not use the word respect in either of those verses. So, in the original language what did the author intend?

Using Romans 13 as a guide, Paul says to give honor (bold type) WHOM HONOR IS DUE (end bold). I believe honor and respect are at least partially different. And by implication, I think we are to honor

honor: probity, uprightness. Honor, honesty, integrity, sincerity refer to the highest moral principles and the absence of deceit or fraud. Honor denotes a fine sense of, and a strict conformity to, what is considered morally right or due:

those who deserve honor, but I believe it is a misuse of the language to claim that honor and respect are equal.

I honor the office of the president of the United States of America.

I have nothing but contempt for the socialist, baby-killing, fascist who currently holds that office.

He does not merit my honor because he is not worthy of my honor. In the same way, he does not get my respect. He has failed to live to a standard (The Bible) which makes him worthy of respect.

This is not intended to start a long discussion on BHO. I simply used that as an illustration.

In my opinion, both respect and honor are merit based. You can earn my respect. Similarly, I honor those who are worthy of honor.

Does that help?

[39. Tim Horbert said the following at 12:57 PM on May 21:]

39

Certainly an attention-grabbing post! Excellent job bringing up a topic that deserves thought.

It's a slightly misleading argument though. Not sure if Motte realizes it, but he's actually created two very different statements that he lumps together as one.

The title of the post asks if we respect Muslims ('Do You Respect Muslims?'), yet the middle of the post shifts to asking us if we respect Islam ('So how do I respect a religion whose followers want to kill me?').

It's important to not let our view of Islam relate to how we treat its followers. Keep in mind Christ loved us before we knew Him. Let's extend that love to others who don't know him yet.

[40. Cassandra said the following at 3:18 PM on May 21:]

40

Rima #13

I'm not sure what you mean by before the cross we are all the same. The statement is true, but to a degree. We're all the same in that God created each one of us and desires that we would all become saved. However, when Christians and Muslims look at the cross, we're not all having the same reaction to it. Christians believe that because of Jesus' death on the cross, we have overcome the effects of sin and death and are heirs in eternal life. However, the cross doesn't mean anything to Muslims. If anything, I think it's an offense. So, more accurately, we are not the same before the cross, because by the cross some of us are saved, and by the cross, the ones who reject it are condemned.

Not to say that I wish that Muslims be condemned, of course. God does make it clear that he wishes all people to be saved. 1 Tim 2:4. There are many Muslims in countries where Christianity is strictly forbidden and severely punished that have been having dreams about Jesus and have been becoming Christians - even risking their own lives. I am so blessed to see how Jesus is working in those countries where missionaries are forbidden. He loves Muslims and wants to call them to him.

[41. Texas Craig said the following at 3:26 PM on May 21:]

41

Farmer Tom:

I was using the NIV. The NASB uses the terms honor and reverence. The KJV uses the terms honor and fear.

I guess reasonable minds can differ on whether "respecting" someone is that much different from "honoring" them -- and which is a higher standard.

What I do know is that I can, and should, show a general sense of civility and love toward others. Whether I define it as "respect" is subject to debate. But, I should always speak the truth in love. And, love is defined as being patient, kind, not taking into account wrongs, not provoked, not rude, etc. (1 Corinthians 13). So, whatever you want to call it, that is what we should show toward Muslims - even those that want to kill us. For that, we have been given an example in the way that Jesus related to those who killed Him.

Peace and grace!

[42. Cassandra said the following at 3:51 PM on May 21:]

42

Kevin #37

I'm sure there's another commentor who will be able to articulate this better than myself, but for starters, the Qu'ran was allegedly delivered to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel. (Similarly to how the Book of Mormon was given to Joseph Smith.) This sets off alarm bells for Christians because the Bible says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light (1 Cor 11:14).

All of the Qu'ran came from one man, Mohammed. We have to take one man's word for it. The Bible wasn't delivered to one man, by an angel, but over 40 different authors contributed to the scriptures that compose the Bible, written over a period of 1,500 years. Many of the authors of the Bible were eyewitnesses to the events that they chronicle. As far as Paul is concerned, there is extra-Biblical, historical evidence that he was responsible for killing Christians, and then he had a sudden change of heart and was eventually martyred himself for spreading Christianity. What on earth could account for that change of heart other than what he claimed was true - that Jesus did appear to him on the road to Damascus. Paul also worked side by side with Jesus' disciples, who were, of course, eyewitnesses to everything recorded in the Gospels.

Quite a bit about the Bible is miraculous. How the work of over 40 different authors over the course of 1,500 years still fits together to form a cohesive whole with the same message (Jesus is God). Also, how many prophecies have been fulfilled, including all the Old Testament prophecies which were fulfilled by Jesus.

So no, I don't feel that the two are comparable. Farmer Tom makes a good point. I think a lot of Christians view Islam as just another world religion, but it's Satanic. 1 Cor 10:20 and 1 Tim 4:1 make it clear that if you're not worship Jesus you're worshiping demons. Should we respect Muslim people? Absolutely. Should we put Islam on the same plane as Christianity? No. Let's not forget that that we do not war with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities.

Nate #36
Rock on with your bad self.

[43. Kelly said the following at 8:09 PM on May 21:]

43

The person I relate to best at my current workplace is Muslim. He and I both walk a counter-cultural path, following our faith rather than the secular worldview.

We're both seen as the "religious ones" by our colleagues. However, his is much more obvious, with regular prayer times and food restrictions.

Although we obviously disagree on the heart of our faith, we understand each other. After all, our faiths both arise from the same tradition, the same God. We know the same stories of Abraham etc.

Do Muslims hate us? I don't think so. From the conversations I've had, they believe Christians are misled rather than infidels. We can't be too outraged at their belief that we are evil. After all, don't we, as Christians, believe that the unsaved go to hell? Atheists take SO MUCH OFFENCE at that whereas we see it as a matter of fact.

I've travelled extensively in several Muslim countries - it's been dangerous on my own, and eye-opening when travelling with a male companion. I've seen firsthand the power that comes with an all-encompassing religion, where the penalty for many things that Western countries allow (e.g. adultery) is death. You don't see women in these places. They're managing the household, raising the children.

And it really does make me wonder, has the freedom we have in Jesus been taken too far?

If we still had those OT penalties, would we be much more fearful of sin?

If we, as Christians, weren't torn apart by "Western world" sins, perhaps people of Muslim faith would be able to see beyond the pain and recognise the joy we have in Jesus.

It's up to us to show them that joy and freedom and above all, LOVE.

[44. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 11:55 PM on May 21:]

44

Kevin,

Nate (#36) and Cassandra (#42) have posted very good comments on the problematic nature of the Koran and why it cannot compare to the Bible, as a trustworthy historical document (although as a Christian, I obviously believe the Bible to be much *more* than *only* a trustworthy historical document-- though it is that).

On the issue of credentials, you write that one must determine Paul's credentials *before* becoming a Christian. In your view, any other process would have things backwards. All this really says, though, is that you believe in the primacy of your own independent reasoning when it comes to "determining" whether the Bible is the word of God.

There are many forms of evidence for the Bible being God's word, but the fact is, the God of the Bible never tells us to use our reason to "determine" whether He exists and whether the Bible is His word. Rather, the Bible *declares* that He exists, and that all people already know it, but that they suppress the knowledge which they have of Him in unrighteousness.

Therefore, the seemingly "independent, objective" forms of evaluation which you would employ to "determine" the spiritual credentials of the Biblical authors are forms of evaluation which actually, in their very employment, illustrate that you are choosing self (autonomous intellect) over God (who declares that He exists and that we already know it and who calls to us to submit to Him in *every* area of our lives, *including* our reasoning and intellect).

[45. Rima said the following at 1:49 PM on May 22:]

45

Cassandra #40

I just meant that we are all need Jesus to save us from our unescapable sin. Sorry for the confusion.

[46. Kevin said the following at 3:00 PM on May 22:]

46

Christopher #44.

Ah yes, I've definitely been down this road of a debate here on boundless before (allegedly choosing self over God), and it really got nowhere. Keep telling me that I already know the 'truth' and that I'm just suppressing it, as if you know my mind better than I do. If I already knew the 'truth' and was just suppressing it, why on earth would I be posting here? Why would I ask for help in understanding exactly why all of you see the Bible as the word of God but not any other book that claims to be the word of God? What's my motivation? You seem to know my mind pretty well, can you tell me why I'm trying to understand something that I apparently already understand and just suppress?

Seriously, do you have any idea how frustrating it is to seek help in understanding the truth (this isn't the only place I'm seeking it BTW), only to be told that I already know the truth and am just suppressing it? The only thing that motivates me to do is to give up trying. I mean, what more can I possibly do? So far I've been too scared to give up trying because I still think one of these religions might actually be true. But it seems like the more I try the closer I get to giving up, and that scares me too. I don't know what to do. I'm trying my best here. I DO pray for help even though I have no clue if anyone is listening. I study the Bible, not only what it says but how it came to be, as well as the Quran and the Book of Mormon. I talk to people, Christian and non-Christian. This stuff consumes my mind, I honestly don't know what more I can do.

Oh, but wait... I already know the truth, I'm just suppressing it. Of course, I understand now. Man, that helped so much. (sarcasm)

Now, do I even attempt to post this comment? What are the odds it gets moderated?

[47. Cassandra said the following at 4:35 PM on May 22:]

47

Kevin #46

Chill out man! Chris was just quoting a verse, Romans 1:18.

That's awesome that you're seeking. I hope you find the answers you're looking for!

[48. Cassandra said the following at 4:55 PM on May 22:]

48

Christopher from Albuquerque: Albuquerque is the home of the first out-of-state Mars Hill campus! I'm jealous!

[49. Leah said the following at 12:28 AM on May 23:]

49

Kevin - I think you need to realise that the bible was compiled from thousands and thousands of manuscripts of the same books. (ie. the bible is made up of 66 individual books- each of these books have many, many ancient manuscripts). Would you be happy to look at an ancient manuscript as proof for Paul's credentials? The bible is merely a modern translation and printing of those same manuscripts.

Oh and btw... can't see anything in your post that would have resulted in it being moderated. You asked questions. Big deal. People have thrown full on insults at others before and not been moderated for it.

Oh, and re: all the "already knowing but just suppressing it" stuff: Christopher from Albuquerque was just quoting the bible, though I do think he took it a little out of context (probably without meaning to). The original bible passage points out that people (eg. African tribes) who have never heard the bible still know there is a God- they can see it in creation, and it's on their consciences. This is true- there are many stories of missionaries reaching tribes in colonial America, India, Africa, and telling them about God, only to have these tribes say "oh, we know there is a God, please tell us about him". But in our modern western society, we get "taught" SO many things that I think there's often not room for us to make our own assumptions like these tribes did. We get "taught" at school that there's no God and the world evolved this way. We get "taught" that religion is just man's made-up attempts to create meaning for himself. We've already been "given" all these "answers" that we might never come to the conclusion that a God might exist.

But the fact you're "searching" indicates that you have admitted there could be a God, which I guess is evidence of this "already knowing" thing. It's not a matter of, you already know the entire truth, just that you already know there is/could be a God. Does that make sense?

[50. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 1:15 AM on May 23:]

50

Kevin,

I am not saying that you are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness as *my personal opinion* of you; my opinion of you means nothing.

However, in Romans 1:18, the Bible states that *all* people who do not submit to and trust in God suppress the truth in unrighteousness. That includes me before I was a Christian.

Your quarrel is not with what I say about you. Your quarrel is with what God says about you in the Bible. You may say that you don't have enough evidence to trust what the Bible says. However, the Bible states that you have more than enough evidence, that the existence of the God of the Bible is plain to see, because He has *made* it plain. Again, your quarrel is not with me but with what the Bible says about you and all other non-Christians.

[51. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 1:23 AM on May 23:]

51

Cassandra,

I just went to see Mark Driscoll speak tonight at Mars Hill Campus here in ABQ! Mars Hill is not my home church though; I am a member of Desert Springs Church in Albuquerque. http://www.desertspringschurch.org/

I love Mark and his ministry and what God is doing through Mark, but honestly, I don't agree with the multi-campus church model with the "video preacher." I see no precedent for the multi-campus model in the Bible's portraits of local churches. However, I won't make a huge deal out of it here. I do highly respect and love Mark as a brother in Christ whom God is greatly using for His glory.

[52. Kevin said the following at 3:30 PM on May 23:]

52

Leah #49
"I think you need to realise that the bible was compiled from thousands and thousands of manuscripts of the same books"

Making a bunch of copies (manuscripts if they're copied by hand) of the same book(s) doesn't magically make the book(s) more true.

"Oh and btw... can't see anything in your post that would have resulted in it being moderated."

It's hard to say. I know that Ted really likes to moderate my comments, because about half of the comments I make on his blogs don't make it through. It seems Motte is a little more welcoming to me.

Christopher #50
"Your quarrel is not with what I say about you. Your quarrel is with what God says about you in the Bible. You may say that you don't have enough evidence to trust what the Bible says. However, the Bible states that you have more than enough evidence, that the existence of the God of the Bible is plain to see, because He has *made* it plain. Again, your quarrel is not with me but with what the Bible says about you and all other non-Christians."

Christopher...we have been through all of this before, exhaustively. I'm not going to argue, particularly with you, about this whole "the Bible says there is enough evidence of the Bible, so there must be enough" thing again. We tried it once and it got nowhere because you wouldn't listen to me. You heard my words, but if any of my words didn't line up with your interpretation of the Bible it was like talking to a chair.

And you're right that my "quarrel" is with the Bible, just like it is with all the other 'holy' books. But when you step in to defend what the Bible says, you step into the "quarrel" and it becomes a "quarrel" with you as well. Just like you can't quarrel with terrorism without quarreling with the terrorists who use it.

[53. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 12:51 AM on May 24:]

53

Kevin,

In your view of things, "listening" to you seems to mean agreeing with what you say about yourself. If the Bible says that the evidence for God is plain to *everyone,* and you say it's *not* plain, for *you,* do I have to go against what the Bible says in order to convince you that I'm "listening" to you? That seems to be the implication of what you are saying.

[54. Ann said the following at 8:23 PM on May 25:]

54

Kevin, this link deals mainly with evidence for the Resurrection itself rather than the Bible as a whole, but I think you might find it interesting.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm

[55. michael said the following at 5:43 AM on May 26:]

55

a lot of people who call themselves christians on this post are highly arrogant. should i disrespect white christians for all of the atrocities committed in the name of christianity against? which believe me, is far more atrocious than what islamic people have done. please get off of your high horses. who are you to judge?

[56. Zusanne said the following at 9:16 AM on May 26:]

56

One other element that makes interpreting the Koran tricky (besides the fact that they do, in fact, claim that only the Arabic is the true scripture) is their method of dealing with contradictory statements.

They teach that, when a contradiction appears, that the more modern statements apply.

Kelly (#43): "Do Muslims hate us? I don't think so. From the conversations I've had, they believe Christians are misled rather than infidels. We can't be too outraged at their belief that we are evil. After all, don't we, as Christians, believe that the unsaved go to hell? Atheists take SO MUCH OFFENCE at that whereas we see it as a matter of fact."

The difference is that believers are not actively doing whatever we can to send as many Muslims to hell. Do all Muslims feel that way? Of course not. I know my uncle from Pakistan doesn't feel that way. Many Muslims throughout the world don't.

But many do. Their speeches, their actions and the hatred for America, Israel and each other (the tension between and within the different countries for the different interpretations of their tradition) have been perpetual causes of strife for a very long time.

[57. Priscilla said the following at 10:14 AM on May 26:]

57

Just a quick comment on the "large percentages (40-70 percent) of Muslims in Muslim countries agree with terrorism".

When you speak about "Muslim countries", I assume you are referring to the nations of West Asia (otherwise called the Middle East). In fact, according to the report you linked to, only five nations -- Lebanon, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Ivory Coast and JOrdan fall into that 40-70 percent category. That completely ignores other nations with large Muslim populations.

The world's largest Muslim population lives in Indonesia, which is largely moderate (only 27 per cent agree with terror according to your survey). The second largest Muslim population in the world is in India (many people think of our neighbour Pakistan as the Muslim country, but we actually have more Muslims -- albeit a smaller percentage -- in India than in Pakistan). An overwhelming number of India's Muslims oppose terrorism.

Getting back on topic, I've learned first hand what it means to respect those from religions other than yours. Growing up, most of my friends were Hindus or Muslims. In a pluralistic society, it was a given that you respected their religious practices -- we've often shared sweets and fireworks at a multitude of religious festivals. We've been tourists together at temples, churches and mosques.

At the end of the day, though, I've tried to let all my friends know why I believe in Christ -- not just because I was born in a Christian family (family allegiance is the single largest reason for religious allegiance among many Hindus and Muslims), but because the message of the gospel is Truth and Life -- for everyone.

[58. Nate said the following at 12:30 PM on May 26:]

58

Michael (#55):

Not sure which post you're referring to.

There's no doubt that "white Christians"--meaning Caucasian peoples who call themselves Christian, at least culturally--have done some bad stuff. Is it fair to assume you're thinking slavery? If so, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I have an African-American friend who's also a linguist and who also speaks Arabic. He's spent some time in the Middle East (naturally) and his specialty is sociolinguistic dynamics among Arabs and black Africans, so he focuses more on eastern Africa. He assures me that what Arabs have done (and are doing) to black Africans has far exceeded what happened in the Western Hemisphere.

He even derisively got called "slave" once, before the culprit realized he wasn't a local. Oops. This was 2008, by the way.

I'm not trying to argue that "white Christians," as you call them, are somehow less culpable because there's a worse standard out there. But I do want to dispell the widely held misconception that somehow Arab treatment of black Africans has been benign.

[59. BY said the following at 10:57 AM on May 27:]

59

Kevin,

The whole Bible is about people talking to us, all the future generations, about the incredible love that God has for his creation. God so loved the world that He was willing to give His only son to die for us so that we can come into relationship with the Father. The Bible says “ask and receive”, so if really want to know the truth, just ask. Of course, in order to ask you have to take a leap of faith and believe that God really loves you soooo much. Then, it’s up to God to show you that he really does love you. Please ignore for now the details about all the supernatural events and the many questions that you have, and focus on the main message – the good news of the gospel that everyone who confesses his/her sins to God, will receive God’s mercy and love in his/her life. The Bible is Holy because of the love that God gives to every human heart that believes with a childish faith, and not because it was written by perfect people using perfect words and language. All the people that have written their posts to you have also witnessed to you – some more and some less so – about God’s love in their lives in a similar way to that the apostles in the Bible have written their letters that we call now a Holy Bible.

[60. BY said the following at 11:35 PM on May 27:]

60

Kevin,

Just to add: have you ever seen something perfect in your eyes – a perfect poem that makes your whole body shake, a perfect painting that elevates to a higher level, or a perfectly beautiful woman that makes you bend your knees, etc. – and then tried to put it into words and describe it in details? Have you ever seen such a perfect thing and felt helpless that it was almost impossible to put it into words? The apostles in the Bible have also had a similar experience. The main difference is that they did not face a thing or a man that they consider perfect, but they faced and met the perfect God, the Creator of all things. Can you imagine how they might have felt to try to describe something that was indescribable so that can show it, a perfect love greater than anything that we ever know, to the whole world? This perfect God have touched them so deep in their hearts and souls with his love that he has transformed radically the lives of the apostles. This experience was simply amazing and hard to “bear” and express. How do you tell such a thing? What language, what words do you use? A perfect God who loves you unconditionally for who you are, right at this moment, who loves you for just being his child, an imperfect human being who needs desperately his love. What else I can say with my own faults and imperfections in my writing, but to wish you that you have a similar extraordinary meeting with God that will leave you speechless so that you will understand how I feel now and how the apostles might have felt when they were writing their letters of the Bible.

[61. Kevin said the following at 1:30 PM on May 28:]

61

BY:

"The Bible says “ask and receive”, so if really want to know the truth, just ask."

You assume that I haven't asked...let me keep this simple. Your assumption couldn't be more wrong. I'd be willing to bet everything that I have asked more than YOU have. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but if God really does exist, to have you tell me that all I need to do is ask has got to be the sickest joke I have ever heard.

"Have you ever seen such a perfect thing and felt helpless that it was almost impossible to put it into words? The apostles in the Bible have also had a similar experience."

An emotional high does not equal truth. As a matter of fact I'd say it is usually more deceitful than truthful.

[62. BY said the following at 5:25 AM on May 29:]

62

Forgive me if I am wrong, Kevin, but it seems to me that you want to "receive" something else. You are free to go and continue living out your life in sin and for pleasure. But when the end comes, you will know that this is it. This is the end for you and you will be eternally separated from the love of God. And that was your choice while you were still alive on this earth. I hope it is at least worth it for you. I am not judging you, but I am giving you the options that you have.

[63. BY said the following at 6:24 AM on May 29:]

63

Kevin,

You said:

"An emotional high does not equal truth. As a matter of fact I'd say it is usually more deceitful than truthful."

You also said that I assumed a lot of things about you. Now, it seems to me that you assumed what I have "received" from God. And because you think you know what I have received, you do not want to believe in my kind of God and "receive" the same thing. That's why I said in the previous post that it seems to me that you want to receive something else. As a metter of fact, I have not even talked about my own personal experience with God. Believe me, it's much more sophisticated than it may seem.

[64. Jo said the following at 9:08 AM on May 29:]

64

BY (and others), the truth is we don't know why Kevin hasn't found faith in God. Can't we just say that?

We're so scared of things we can't explain, so we create our own explanations. I'm not saying we don't care about Kevin and and aren't trying to help him, but the fact is we're also terrified of admitting that we don't understand why some people ask and ask and don't receive. Maybe it is a problem with them. Or maybe God works in ways that we sometimes just don't get. We don't know, so let's just say we don't know, and pray for him.

[65. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 11:06 AM on May 29:]

65

Jo (#64),

I engaged in a lengthy e-mail correspondence with Kevin months ago. He said repeatedly that he wants to find the truth, and he wants to know if the Biblical God is the true God. For every single bit of evidence that I gave him though, both within the Bible and outside of the Bible, he basically responded, "it's not convincing to me." If the evidence was from within the Bible, he dismissed it *because* it was from the Bible. If it was outside of the Bible, he always had a "non-Biblical God" explanation for it.

Kevin's criteria for being "convinced" of the existence of the God of the Bible, and for the truth of the Bible as His word, is that God would have to "show" Himself to Kevin in a way that could never be explained as being from anyone or anything *other* than God. I pointed out to him that one can explain away almost anything ultimately.

The conversation just kept going around and around, until finally, Kevin started cursing me, using very profane language, because I wasn't willing to admit that I might be wrong in my faith in the God of the Bible. To his mind, that was the only way to prove that I was "listening" to him-- to admit that he might be right in his agnosticism, and I might be wrong in my Christian faith-- that actually, the Bible might be wrong.

The Bible does say, in the first chapter of Romans, that people know God but that they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. They may not know the explicit Gospel of Jesus Christ, but they know enough of God and His holiness to condemn them. The Bible is clear about that fact. The Biblical truth here about "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" includes all people who have not repented of sin and submitted themselves to God-- including me before I was saved, and including Kevin. If people want to disagree with it, they are disagreeing with the Bible.

Moreover, Kevin has had the Gospel presented to him numerous times (many of them by me), and I have engaged him at length, answering his questions about (or challenges and objections *to,*, really) the Bible and the Christian faith. His "seeking" looks very different when one engages it at length personally.

[66. Kevin said the following at 11:09 AM on May 29:]

66

BY #63

"You also said that I assumed a lot of things about you. Now, it seems to me that you assumed what I have "received" from God."

I wasn't talking about you. Let me re-paste the phrase I was responding to.

"Have you ever seen such a perfect thing and felt helpless that it was almost impossible to put it into words? The apostles in the Bible have also had a similar experience."

I was responding to that. I wasn't talking about you and your beliefs. I was talking about the two people you were referring to in your statement; me and the apostles. I was referring to the emotional high that one can get when they see "such a beautiful thing", as well as the fact that the apostles' experience MAY very well have been the result of an emotional high or similar experience. I'm not saying it absolutely was, but I think it's definitely a possibility. That kind of thing is far from unheard of (ever been to one of those charismatic church services?).

I mean, you're a christian right? Do you find it so hard to believe that the entire Quran came from a wishful thinking man on an emotional high? I mean, how else would you explain it? What about the Book of Mormon? Did that book really come from an evil man plotting against all of mankind, writing a religious book just for the sake of deceiving everyone? Or did it come from a guy who believed something and wanted so badly for it to be true that his wishful thinking, combined with some type of emotional high, brought him what he thought was a 'vision' and poof...the Book of Mormon. I suppose it could be the former, but the latter seems more likely to me. And how about the Bible? One wishful thinking man on an emotional high can write up some pretty interesting stuff, just imagine what a whole group of wishful thinking dudes on an emotional high can do (again, just look at the charismatic churches for an example). I honestly find it a lot easier to believe that the Bible is a product of centuries of wishful thinking than a story about a man living inside a fish or a talking garden snake.

I wasn't saying I know what you may or may not have received. And I'm not trying to resist the truth. The truth is the thing I want to 'receive'. If the Bible is the truth, then so be it. If I knew it were the truth I wouldn't hesitate to follow it to the best of my ability, no matter what it says.

The problem isn't that I'm not willing to accept God if He exists. I'm more than willing and able to. I demonstrated that in the past when I was a christian. The problem is I don't know if He exists or not. If He DOES exist, the next problem is knowing which of these holy books (if any) are really His word, because they all seem far from the 'perfect word' they claim to be. And if the Bible really is true: "Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto you," well then how many times do I need to ask for the truth before I receive it? How long do I need to seek the truth before I find it?

I know the Bible. And from my point of view, it might be true and it might not be true. I'm not saying it is and I'm not saying it isn't because I really don't know. And BECAUSE I don't know, that's what I say; "I don't know." I'm not going to claim to know something that I don't. I'm not going to say, "The Bible is God's word," unless I KNOW it's God's word. I'm just being honest with myself and (if He exists) with God. Unfortunately, it's that honesty that prompts the Bible, the Quran, the Book of Mormon, and every Christian, Muslim and Mormon on this planet to tell me that I'm going to hell (yet ironically Christians like to think they're the ones who are 'persecuted' for their beliefs). And I don't want that. And even though I don't know if a hell even exists, it still scares me. So I pray to a God that I don't even know exists for help every day. I don't get specific, I just ask for help (ask and you shall receive). I read these 'holy' books; the Bible, the Quran and the Book of Mormon every day, EVERY DAY, and talk to people like you who believe them as well as people who don't believe them in order to try and find the real truth (seek and you shall find).

So what am I doing wrong here? Why isn't God helping me? What's taking so long?

It's the fact that I've asked for help and haven't received it that makes me think that God might not exist. I can't help that I think that way, and I'm not going to deny it. So how long do I keep asking and seeking and knocking before someone answers or I decide that nobody's home?

Jo #64

"We're so scared of things we can't explain, so we create our own explanations."

I think you might be hitting the nail on the head there (maybe), but you might be hitting a different nail than you intended. "We're so scared...so we create our own explainations"... Sometimes I wonder if perhaps the Bible itself is a product of that phenomenon.

Thanks for praying for me.

[67. BY said the following at 11:39 AM on May 29:]

67

Jo,

In general, I agree with you completely. However, the enemies and the demons that we must fight are namely the prejudices, misconceptions and sheer ignorance that people have about all kinds of the really important things in life. For instance, we may use the same language but the meaning we put into our words could be quite different based on our own prejudices and life experience. We may blame the media and Hollywood that they misrepresent and twist reality, but our goal is to love in the Christian sense and educate others. It is much easier to convince someone to believe in Jesus by showing him/her a personal love and affection that he/she has never seen before. Such kind of love is the best way to prove that the world does not understand what they miss in choosing not to love God. However, it is much harder to convince someone by using words only, especially if this someone has his/her own strong ideas or misconceptions.

After all, if a person wants to believe in God, one does need any proofs to believe. Whoever pursues good and righteousness, he/she wants to believe in a God of love because he/she wants his/her goodness and righteousness to be rewarded. However, the devil masks the Christian faith as this kind of a shallow, hypocritical and judgmental thing which people use to show themselves as being better than others – a faith that can be easily used to manipulate others. But, we know that the Christian faith requires to be unselfish like Christ and love others, even our enemies, in such a way that everyone can see that this is indeed a reality that is awaiting all of us on the other side – the unselfish and unconditional love of God. It is indeed hard to break through other people’s misconceptions (as well as our own misconceptions) as every person on this planet puts his/her own thoughts and ideas in everything he/she can see, hear or read.

In other words, if you say something, I may think I understand what you say but actually I cannot understand exactly what you mean because at best I may try to put myself into your own shoes, but still my own thinking will be influencing me. The reason is that I cannot really put myself into your own shoes and thus empathize with you because I cannot feel what you feel and I cannot think the thoughts that you think. Unless, of course, you are brutally honest with me and I believe you completely, but even then we are two quite different and unique human beings. For instance, if I have a certain prejudice that A is always false, and then you come and tell me honestly that A is true, defending well your position, but my own thinking is twisted and your arguments are not addressing my hidden misconceptions, I might think that either you are a hypocrite or dumb enough to be fooled into something that you should not have been. The worst thing is that I might not realize that I have this specific prejudice, and I might be asking you all kinds of questions which are not directly related with it, thus you will never succeed in convincing me that A is not always false.

That does not mean, of course, that we should not tell the good news of the Bible to all people because we are afraid that they might have many misconceptions and prejudices. There is no other way that they will learn the truth and believe in it, and that’s why Jesus has told us to do so. Even though we desire to do what is always right and good, people hate us and persecute us and try to hurt us because we believe in God. So, there are many prejudices and wrong ideas in people’s heads and in their hearts which make them do horrible things to those who least deserve it. Because some people do not want to humble themselves and admit that God is supreme and God is the ultimate love. I hope you understand the small diamonds that I am sharing with you.

[68. BY said the following at 12:54 PM on May 29:]

68

Kevin,

The apostles talked with Jesus, walked with Jesus, saw him perform all kinds of miracles and then they saw him rise from the dead. And then, the apostles taught us what real unselfish love means by laying down their own lives in order to change the whole human kind. And I am not talking about a single act of sacrifice, but a daily sacrifice which involved loving and caring for each single person, including those that put you in jail and torture you and hurt you. Is there more convincing evidence that someone is telling the truth, because all these facts about the lives and deaths of the apostle are documented historic facts? How emotionally high can you feel when you are in jail for years and when people try to beat you, murder you and mock you year after year?

You probably know the story about the person who was waiting for God’s help while his house was sinking in the flood. First, his neighbors told him to leave, but he sat and waited for God. Then, a boat came but he still sat and waited for God to help him. Then, a helicopter came, and he still sat and waited for God. Eventually, the flood waters came in and he drowned. When he faced God, he was furious and asked why God did not help him. And God told him that He sent all these people to save him but he would not want their help. Still, in my opinion, although this is just a story, the person from the story made it to heaven, yet, he was very foolish.

My question to you, Kevin, is what kind of “help” are you looking for and what do you expect to receive from God?

As much as I know, God cares mostly about the human character and personality because that is what God relates with. If you do not have the character and personality that God wants, including for instance patience and humility and a heart that is willing to be moved by other people’s sufferings, I do not know what you expect from God if God does not want to relate with you.

Kevin, have you ever asked yourself and God to be forgiven for the mistakes you have done in your lifetime and for the people that you have hurt? You see, it is much easier to believe that there is no God because then there are no mistakes and we do not need to repent of them. We do not show mercy and mercy will not be shown to us. We act based only on our feelings about right and wrong and we do not need to give an account except to please our own selfish selves. So, if we steal or cheat or engage in sexual behavior or cheat our spouse or lie to our friends, it is all good as long as we have a good reason for it and ultimately have a good thrill out of doing it.
You know that the door is narrow and only few are chosen.

[69. Texas Craig said the following at 2:01 PM on May 29:]

69

Kevin:

I recently posted on another thread on here in response to comments from another blogger. Anyway, I think the text of my post relates to your questions as well:

"I won't try to persuade you of the rational truth of Christianity nor of the logic of creationism, etc. Further, I cannot defend the actions of many Christians over the years. But, I can tell you that so many who have called themselves Christians have lived lives vastly different from the life modeled by Jesus Christ.

I can say from personal experience that following Jesus truly is the best way to live. If you ever get to a point in your life where you are wrestling with the direction of your life or if life's burdens are weighing you down and you lack peace and/or joy, then try following Jesus and see if it doesn't prove to be the best possible way to live.

The Bible says that God is love. The Bible also says that "love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Jesus truly has the words of life. I don't know whether the earth was created in 6 days or not. I don't know if it is 6,000 years old or not. To be honest, I don't really care. Because, having tasted and seen that God is good, like Peter I can honestly say "where else would I turn? Who else has the words of life?" I am completely and utterly convinced that following Jesus is the BEST way to live. Serving others, taking no offense at wrongs, caring for the poor and the oppressed, seeking justice, loving mercy, and dying to myself have brought me the fullness of life that Jesus promised when He said "I came that they might have life, and have it to the fullest."

I don't care whether others believe what I believe. But, I do desire for them to have the same confidence, peace and joy that I have. That is honestly what I want you to have. Perhaps you already do. But, whether you have it or not is entirely your choice, and I do not care to browbeat you or anyone into some belief system. Rather, I want you to know that you are loved. Beyond what you could ever imagine, you are loved by God."

So, Kevin, my advice to you is to just start following Jesus. That's what I did when I was 18 years old and not certain of what "religion" was true. I read plenty about many, many religions. Ultimately, what Jesus said and did offered the most compelling story to me. Now, having followed Him for 20 years, I am CONVINCED that following Jesus simply is THE BEST way to live. But, please note that I am not saying "being a Christian" is the best way. Too many people claim to be Christians but do not seem to be following Jesus. That is part of why we have so many problems, because so many claim the name of Christ, but so few really follow Him.

Peace and grace!

[70. Jo said the following at 2:20 PM on May 29:]

70

BY:
"I hope you understand the small diamonds that I am sharing with you."

I don't understand how they relate to what I said. :/

[71. Jo said the following at 2:26 PM on May 29:]

71

BY,

Here's an example of what I was trying to say. I have an incurable disease. I have been prayed for many many times, I have not been healed. Now you could tell me I don't have enough faith, or you could tell me I need to claim my healing, or that I need to repent of certain sins or forgive people who've hurt me or that I need a curse lifted or a demon cast out, but these would all be attempts to explain what you cannot explain.

You don't know Kevin, and you don't know why he hasn't found faith, therefore you can't pretend to know. That's all I'm saying.

[72. BY said the following at 2:44 PM on May 29:]

72

Jo, #71

Whoever tries to save his life, will lose it, and whoever loses his life for Christ's sake, will find true life.

Jo, there is a huge difference between trying to save your physical body and trying to save your soul.

[73. Kevin said the following at 4:35 PM on May 29:]

73

Thanks you guys for your responses. I appreciate you trying to help me. I'll try to touch on each one just a little bit so this doesn't get too long.

Christopher #65

"To his mind, that was the only way to prove that I was "listening" to him-- to admit that he might be right in his agnosticism, and I might be wrong in my Christian faith-- that actually, the Bible might be wrong."

Exactly right Christopher. Just like I said, it felt like talking to a chair. You see, in order for me to truly listen to what you were saying, I would have to admit that you MIGHT be right about what you're saying about Christianity. MIGHT, that's all. If I wasn't willing to admit that, I wouldn't be listening to you, nor could I possibly understand the God of the Bible. And I did admit that you might be right. I still do.

However, you would not grant me the same privilege. You would not allow anything I said (if it differed from your interpretation of the Bible) even the slightest chance at being even somewhat credible, and immediately shut it out as absolutely wrong. That is NOT listening Christopher. The reason I didn't want to talk to you anymore (and the reason for the frustrated cursings) was because you weren't listening and you weren't putting forth any effort to try and understand what I was telling you about WHY I can't seem to accept the Bible as absolute truth. I tried to explain over and over, but it... again, it was like talking to a chair. A chair who thought he was always right. Forgive me if you were offended by my language, but it just made me so frustrated to have my point of view ignored. Perhaps if you understood it you could better help me.

BY #68

"The apostles talked with Jesus, walked with Jesus, saw him perform all kinds of miracles and then they saw him rise from the dead."

That's what the Bible says. But the fact that the Bible says it doesn't prove it to be true. The Book of Mormon says that Joseph Smith talked with Moroni, does that prove it to be true? No. The Quran says that Mohammad talked with Gabriel, does that prove it to be true? No. They COULD be true, but the fact that a book says it doesn't prove anything. I can't hold the Bible to a different standard than the other two without reason to do so. Make sense?

"How emotionally high can you feel when you are in jail for years and when people try to beat you, murder you and mock you year after year?"

If the book you follow as 'truth' tells you that if you are a 'true follower' you will be persecuted, then being persecuted is only going to make you MORE convinced that this book is true, not LESS convinced. It's the same for any religion. It's these persecutions that can usually make a person even MORE emotionally high. Persecuted muslims seem to feel more like real muslims when they're persecuted for their faith. Or look at the Westboro Baptist Church. They get 'persecuted' by almost everyone every day, and they absolutely relish it. They can't get enough of it. And it only makes them stronger in what they believe, not weaker. It reassures them, regardless of whether their beliefs are true or not.

"You see, it is much easier to believe that there is no God because then there are no mistakes and we do not need to repent of them. We do not show mercy and mercy will not be shown to us. We act based only on our feelings about right and wrong and we do not need to give an account except to please our own selfish selves. So, if we steal or cheat or engage in sexual behavior or cheat our spouse or lie to our friends, it is all good as long as we have a good reason for it and ultimately have a good thrill out of doing it."

Um...I'm not sure where you're getting that philosophy, but I certainly don't feel that way. Just because a person isn't a christian doesn't mean they're morally corrupt. Cheating, lying, stealing, killing, that stuff is wrong.

("But Kevin! How do you know that stuff is wrong without a God to set your moral standards? Where do you get your morals if not from God? Checkmate!) My morals come from the basis of equality, which is what the entire universe follows (2=2, 5=5). It is not right to take something that is not yours, because that is not equality. It is not right to cheat, or take another person's life because that is not equality. Selfishness is not equality. And so on... Basically, the golden rule is what I follow, because it's based on something I know: How I would like to be treated.

Anyway, the misconception you have about non-christians is actually pretty common, but it's not true. Selflessness, humility, sacrifice, love, all that stuff is good. One doesn't need a 'holy' book to prove that. Again, just ask yourself, "Would I want to be treated this way?"

Texas Craig #69

Thank you for posting this. It gives me a chance to explain something that some people might not know, and that is this: For the most part, I think the Bible's teachings are mostly good. I have never said that I think the Bible is wrong or that it is bad or that it is filled with lies. I admit that, for all I know, it COULD be. But again, I don't know. However, I agree with a lot of the moral teachings of the Bible. Serving others, love, selflessness, humility, charity, mercy, all that stuff is good stuff. A lot of the stuff people associate with Jesus is good in my eyes (for what they're worth). Again, all I need to do is test them out for myself to find out.

It's the dogma and know-it-all absolute certainty mindset that comes with it that I have a hard time with. It's the, "The Bible says this so it's automatically right," mindset that I have trouble with. How can I know that this book is absolutely true from cover to cover? I wasn't there when it happened. All I know is that this book says it's true, but that doesn't prove it any more than Dr. Seuss can prove that green eggs taste good. Green eggs might taste good, but I can't know unless I was actually there to taste them for myself can I?

Anyway, for the most part I agree with many of the Bible's morals. But not all of them.

I'm sure if God (if He exists) wants to convince me He could, seeing as how He's capable of doing all things. I mean the Bible itself says that we aren't the ones who choose God, it's God who chooses us right? Well...wouldn't that mean that the fact that the Bible doesn't convince me is His doing, not mine? After all, I don't CHOOSE what convinces me and what doesn't.

I seek to know the truth. I know that being kind to others is a good thing because I can go out and test it. However, I don't know that the God of the Bible created the universe because I can't test that. I don't know if it's absolute truth. So I'm not going to claim that it is. Is that wrong?

P.S. Thanks for (kinda) sticking up for me Jo.

[74. Texas Craig said the following at 11:43 PM on May 29:]

74

Kevin:

I appreciate your dialogue on this. Since you asked a question at the end of your response to my comments, I figure I will give you a response.
:-)

Kevin, you state: "However, I don't know that the God of the Bible created the universe because I can't test that. I don't know if it's absolute truth. So I'm not going to claim that it is. Is that wrong?"

I don't think its wrong. And, to be honest, I am not troubled with your questions. But, you also need to beware of seeking purely intellectual answers. The original sin of man was the decision to "eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." It was the desire to obtain knowledge - to be like God in our ability to know things - that caused our separation from our creator.

I think genuine truth is much beyond our capability to fully understand. And, paradoxically, I think that we obtain peace through faith. I was 18 when I asked God to prove Himself to me if He existed. A month or two later, I walked outside one day and looked up at the sky and I just knew that God was real. It was like a light switch flipped in my heart. That's the best way to describe what happened for me. But, that came after many weeks of asking Him to convince me He was real.

As for deciding what you believe. Well, that is your choice. I for one, believe that God opens our eyes to understand truth, but I do not believe that He chooses all who believe. I am a free will person. Calvinists would disagree. But, like I said in my earlier post, I have yet to find anyone else who has the words of life. I am not going to try to persuade you to believe, but my hope is that you will come to know (genuinely know, deep in your heart and your soul) the love of the One who made you.

Peace and grace!

[75. BY said the following at 1:15 AM on May 30:]

75

Kevin, #73

Based on what you said, if it is indeed how you feel and think and not a mask, you are very close to the kingdom of God. But what is it that is stopping you from entering it? What is stopping you from loving Jesus and seeing the hands of God in everything that Jesus has done? What is stopping you for loving God for what He has done through Jesus?

You said:

"However, I don't know that the God of the Bible created the universe because I can't test that. I don't know if it's absolute truth. So I'm not going to claim that it is. Is that wrong?"

You always have a choice, and that's why you have a free will. If you could test everything and prove everything, then you would not have a choice and a free will. God is and the absolute truth simply is, and whether you believe in them or not believe in them, God still is and the absolute truth still is. Whther you can test them and prove them, or not test them and prove them, they still are. But you have a choice to believe or refuse to believe. What is the choice that you want to make?

[76. BY said the following at 1:33 AM on May 30:]

76

Kevin, #73

About the matter of choice: we have a free will and we can choose, but God also has a free will and He can also choose what to do and how to do it. He can choose to arrange seemingly unrelated and coincidential events to happen in a person's life in order to draw this person close to Him, like it happened with me. God can also choose to reveal Himself suddenly in a bright light or to remain silent and hidden for a long time. God is in control of everything, but we still have a free will and choices to make. But the reassuring thing is that God never changes and always remains the same - He is always faithful, He always loves, He never gives up, and He never lies. God is holy, but we are not holy and pure, and most importantly we are made to need Him only. That's why we need to change and make a choice who and what are we going to believe in and who and what are we going to follow. I hope this makes sense for you.

[77. BY said the following at 11:54 AM on May 30:]

77

Kevin #73,

Just to continue from my previous posts. It is funny that you say that all these things are good: selflessness, goodness, kindness, humility, sacrifice, love, etc. However, you do not believe in the one who represents all these qualities in their most sublime form, the one who represents perfect Love and perfect Goodness to their utmost level.

What do you lack in order for you to enter the kingdom of God? You lack the Cross. You have to eat the flesh of the Son of God and drink the blood of the Son of God. You have to come before the Cross of Jesus Christ and repent of all your sins in his name, because only through the blood of Jesus (his sacrifice), you can enter in the kingdom of God. Why so? Because God has a plan for the human beings and He chooses to reveal himself to the world in such a way so that whoever believes in Jesus and his sacrifice can enter his kingdom. So there would not be any mistake to whom you belong and who God really is and what he is all about: his character and his qualities. In addition, Jesus is alive so if you call on him, he will come. When you believe in Jesus and invite him into your life while you repent of your sins, you will meet him and he will meet with you. “Ask and you will receive.” That’s what you should ask in the name of Jesus, a name above all names, and you will meet him personally.

That’s a hard teaching but you see what Jesus was all about in the Bible: the way he lived his life and the way he gave his life away. So, if you want to be part of his kingdom, you should not be afraid to ask and pray to God in His Son’s name. Everyone is invited but not everyone will enter so do the best you can before it is too late.

[78. Texas Craig said the following at 7:45 PM on May 30:]

78

BY - I think I would like you if I met you in person. I certainly like your comments!

[79. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 11:15 PM on May 30:]

79

Kevin (#73),

You wrote that I "wouldn't listen" to your statements about the Bible possibly being wrong, because I am convinced that I'm right. That is not accurate. I'm not convinced that I am right. I'm convinced that the *Bible* is right. God convinced me of it by softening my heart and opening my eyes to see its truth.

It's not a matter of whether I am right or wrong, personally. The question is, is the Bible right in all that it affirms and all that it denies? You want me to take your side *against* the claims of the Bible, in order to prove that I'm "listening" to you.

If you say, "No, that's not true. I just want you to admit that the Bible might be wrong," I can only answer with the words of Jesus, "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." (Matthew 12:30)

Are you with Jesus, Kevin? To be with Him, you have to worship the God of the Bible, because Jesus, as the second person of the Trinity, *is* the God of the Bible. He forgave others' sins and accepted worship from others as this God. No mere human does such a thing-- and Jesus was not a lunatic.

If you are not with Jesus, the Bible says that you are against Him and against God (as He is God). Saying that the Bible *might* be wrong is *not* being with God.

I am with Him, so by definition, I will not say that the Bible might be wrong-- but that does not mean that I won't listen to the questions and objections of non-Christians. It *does* mean that I won't take their side against God.

[80. BY said the following at 12:56 AM on May 31:]

80

Texas Craig, #78

Thank you, Craig. I certainly appreciate your comments too. But, unfortunately, what you asked for is impossible.

[81. Jo said the following at 2:12 AM on May 31:]

81

BY, 72: "Jo, there is a huge difference between trying to save your physical body and trying to save your soul."

I know that, it was an example. All I was trying to say was be careful about accusing people you don't know of 'wanting something different' when you actually have no idea about the reasons for their struggles. I really don't think we're on the same page here, so forget it.

However I like what you said in posts 75/6/7.

[82. EJ said the following at 3:04 PM on May 31:]

82

Hi Kevin,
I have been a Christian since I was small. Doubt has been a reoccuring theme for me. I think it's something in a person's makeup:) Anyway, at one point in my life I benefited from a book called "Reaching for the Invisible God" by Phillip Yancey, and a CD by Michael Card "A Violent Grace". I would also recommend "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel, "Suprised by Joy" by C.S. Lewis, and "The Hiding Place" by Corrie ten Boom. Heck, I could give you a reading list that would last all summer if you aren't bored to death with this list:) Don't give up. Grace and peace to you.

[83. Kevin said the following at 9:01 PM on May 31:]

83

Texas Craig, Christopher, BY, EJ, thanks for writing. I just got done writing a very long response to a few of you, but it just wasn't turning out the way I wanted (you know how that goes right?). It's late at night, one of my hard drives died today and I spent a few hours trying to figure out if I could revive it, I'm just burnt out and can't really write very well.

But even if I could, I don't think it would move things along any. I think it's getting obvious that this online dialogue isn't really helping. I mean, it kinda is in a few small ways (Texas Craig and BY, your responses have helped me to better understand how other people define belief, which is nice to understand), but I honestly don't see this coming to any kind of conclusion in which I or you or anyone comes out with a better understanding of the truth.

I could definitely write a long response to everything you have all said in order to explain why I differ, but I don't think it would do much good. They just keep getting longer and longer. So I'm going to save my efforts for something else.

Texas Craig and BY, thanks for responding in the way you did, it was very respectful, and like I said, you did help me to better understand how you view belief. While it doesn't change my view of belief, it is a good thing to understand other people's points of view. Christopher...nevermind.

I hope you guys can understand why I'm cutting out of here instead of dragging it on more (at least Texas Craig and BY, Christopher I don't expect you to understand). I need to find some other way to try and solve this belief problem I have. Hopefully, if God really does exist, He will bring me some kind of peace and understanding, or whatever help He decides to give (cuz God knows I ask for it).

Alright, that's it I'm out. Peace.

[84. BY said the following at 2:08 AM on Jun 1:]

84

Kevin #83,

Thank you for your kindness and gentleness in answering to us in your last post. It seems that this is your choice and we are not able to change your mind. Please, as a goodbye consider the words of one who considered the religion he followed (faith in good deeds and in good morals) as a loss compared to the faith in Jesus Christ:

"5 I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law.6 I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.
7 I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done.8 Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ9 and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ.* For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith.10 I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death,11 so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead!" (Philippians 3:5-11)

Our prayers are with you!

[85. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 2:23 AM on Jun 1:]

85

Kevin,

You don't expect me to understand, because I'm not willing to question what the Bible teaches, in order to find common ground with you. That's the crux of the issue. I stand with God and His word, as any Christian should, if he/she is consistent.

I do sincerely pray that God opens your eyes to the truth. He is truth; there is no basis for holding to the objective validity of anything, including logic and rationality, apart from Him. When you base your beliefs about morality on 2 + 2= 5, you are ultimately basing them on God. http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/

[86. BY said the following at 8:43 AM on Jun 2:]

86

Christopher #85,

Sorry for interfering here, but I just wanted to say that I think Kevin is right in questioning the truth of the Bible. The Bible points to the person of Jesus Christ and the fact that every person in this world can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus. So, once a person repents of his/her sins and accepts Jesus, he/she meets Jesus and Jesus meets him/her. Then, his/her eyes are open to the truths of the Bible and he/she starts questioning instead how he/she can live a life worthy of God. But without Jesus in a person's life the Bible is just another book for the unbeliever filled with miraculous events that do not make much sense. But with Jesus in a person's life the whole story changes... Very often, when we talk about the Bible, we all miss the main message - coming to faith in Jesus and meeting the risen Lord. It's certainly very easy for unbelievers to miss the main message and focus on other minor things.

[87. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 9:45 AM on Jun 2:]

87

BY (#86),

You may have missed my comment above, but months ago, I engaged in a lengthy e-mail correspondence with Kevin. This correspondence itself only happened after I dialogued with him for a while on Boundlessline. He had many, many questions about, and objections to, the Christian faith. I answered as many of them as I humanly could, but Kevin was not satisfied. If the answer/evidence came from the Bible, he didn't trust it *because* it came from the Bible. If the answer/evidence came from outside of the Bible, he always had a "non-Biblical God" explanation for it.

Kevin's overall attitude was *not* one of curiosity and openness to the Christian faith. Rather, he was defiant toward it-- even to the point that when I myself, as a Christian, would *not* say that the Bible might be wrong, he accused me of not listening to him and cursed me, using extremely profane language. He wanted me to reason on his agnostic terms, being seriously willing to consider that the Bible might not be the word of God, and when I would not do so, he became abusive.

I write the things that I write to Kevin in that context, and in the context of the teaching of Romans 1:18-21, which states that all people know God, at least on some level, but they suppress this knowledge in unrighteousness. This truth includes me before I was saved, and it includes Kevin.

As a Christian, I cannot "pretend" to be an agnostic in order to find common ground with non-Christians. I will take their questions and objections to the Bible seriously, in that I will engage them and attempt to answer them, but I cannot do what Kevin wants me to do. That would be a betrayal of the God whom I worship.

[88. BY said the following at 10:19 AM on Jun 2:]

88

Christopher #87,

I made my comment to you because I thought that you would have saved yourself all the trouble if instead of focusing on the Bible, you had tried to understand where Kevin is coming from as an unbeliever. That does not mean that you should pretend to be someone else, but that you do not engage in lengthy conversations with people whose viewpoint you do not understand.

[89. Jo said the following at 10:56 AM on Jun 2:]

89

"There is nothing liberal about treading the narrowest path imaginable yourself, but throwing your arms as wide as they'll go to greet and enfold as many others as possible." - Adrian Plass.

Christopher, if you didn't want to 'pretend to be agnostic' in your discussions with Kevin, that's totally understandable. But I don't think it's inherently wrong to do so.

[90. BY said the following at 12:11 PM on Jun 2:]

90

Christopher #87,

Please do not throw your pearls (Bible verses) to the dogs, because they may jump at you and trample them.

[91. Kevin said the following at 1:50 PM on Jun 2:]

91

Ok, I said I was done posting because I didn't think this dialoge was going to help me learn much, and I still don't think it will. But that's not why I'm posting this. I'm now posting this because Christopher is posting some inaccurate things about me, and I don't want my reputation (what little there is) to be skewed here.

Christopher #87

"Kevin's overall attitude was *not* one of curiosity and openness to the Christian faith."

I am curious and open to the Christian faith just like any other faith or religion. Granted, I am skeptical as you know. And I have good reason to be skeptical. I'm trying to find the truth while making sure to guard myself from lies, propaganda, exaggerations and false teachings. But I'm still open to it. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be here.

"he accused me of not listening to him and cursed me, using extremely profane language."

I've gone back through some of those emails, and I don't think I ever cursed YOU. I did use some words that you consider to be 'curse' words, but none of them were cursing YOU. None of them were used to describe or define you. They were used to describe how I felt (or at one point to describe what you did not know about me), in order to hopefully help you better understand how frustrated I was with you. But I never 'cursed' you, or used 'curse' words to define you.

However, I did use SOME words that described you. Do you remember those? They weren't curse words, and they were ascribed to you based on their very definition. Remember?

big·ot·ry  /ˈbɪgətri/ [big-uh-tree]

–noun, plural -ries. 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

Why bigotry? "It seems that in order for you to believe that I was taking you seriously, I had to concede that you might be right (in your various statements) and I might be wrong (in my various statements)."

There were others, but I don't want to get moderated. Although I don't know why I would, I'm just posting dictionary words and their defintions.

"he became abusive"

I did? How do you figure? I don't remember abusing you. How did I abuse you?

Christopher, I think you're drawing a caricature of me here, and I don't think that's very fair.

[92. Texas Craig said the following at 3:24 PM on Jun 2:]

92

Christopher and BY:

As an outsider looking at your posts, I think you both have made some great comments. Christopher obviously has a longer history corresponding with Kevin and that has impacted the way he communicates with him. I can respect that. I think that we all have been fairly respectful in our comments to Kevin and I trust that he, or any unbeliever, looking at our posts would be able to understand the basis of the gospel and be without excuse. Now, it is up to Kevin as to whether he can willingly die to himself and follow Jesus.

Peace and grace!

[93. brx said the following at 3:44 PM on Jun 2:]

93

I think trying to reason someone to Christ and the ensuing arguments are a big trap set by the enemy. I used to fall into it all the time with my athiest and agnostic friends. It serves only to build walls and alienate people. ...ultimately, at the root, I think it's my pride those traps go after...

Consider also, that Jesus never threw Scripture verses at people who didn't already have a background knowledge of it.

Let's pray for the sensitivity to hear the deeper, human concern behind their questions, the discernment to know if/when they are open to God's healing, and the wisdom to respond appropriately. I really think we need to be able to have discussions in open sincerity rather than be carrying an agenda to convert someone to Christianity.

If no one can come to Jesus lest the Father draws them, then we should be praying to the Father, that He will draw them. And we need wisdom to love them in the meanwhile.

Grace, peace & adventures in letting God do the convincing

[94. BY said the following at 1:35 AM on Jun 3:]

94

Kevin, #91

I’d like to apologize to you for my last comment and if I have offended you without a reason for it. My last post was more about Chris than about you. Please let me explain so that you may try to understand where I’m coming from.

In my eyes, Kevin, you might have had a very hurtful experience in your past where someone had caused you great sorrow and pain. And you might be angry and blame God for everything that had happened and for not making the other person behave differently so that you would not have had to be hurt so badly. And then, of course, if someone else comes throwing Bible verses at you, he/she will only put more salt in your wounds and make you even angrier. And then, unfortunately, anger can get the better of you and cause you to punish someone who has nothing to do with your personal agenda. That’s what might happen with Christopher next time – if not with you, then maybe with someone else.

The truth, Kevin, is that we all have our own hurts and brokenness in our lives. After all, we are all human and we are all the same in most of our experiences: we all have been cheated by our close friends, lied to, broken-hearted, manipulated, exploited and abused more or less. No one but God knows why people choose to hurt others and do what they do. However, the hardest thing is to let go of everything and move on.

For us, as Christians, the reassuring thing is that God never changes – although it may seem from our humanly perspective that He “chooses” how to behave, God cannot do anything that is contrary to His holy nature. God has given us free will to choose between obeying Him or not obeying Him, between doing good and doing wrong, between hurting others or not hurting them; however, God cannot choose to do what is evil. Love endures even when it hurts and everything seems unfair, Love remains silent when there is no use of speaking out, and Love speaks out when it can comfort, Love acts when it needs to act and waits when it needs to wait doing what is best for everyone. Love cannot change people by force but Love will always be victorious in the end regardless of all the hurt and struggles that it has to go through in the meantime. We are all as Christians longing for the moment when we will stand face to face with Love in his perfect kingdom. Even if this seems as wishful thinking for you, Kevin, I hope it makes sense why we have chosen to be a blessing for others, to forgive those that hurt us and to love.

Sorry for the long post, and I hope you forgive me for the previous one.

[95. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 2:03 AM on Jun 3:]

95

To all:

This will be the last comment that I post on this thread, as I don't want it to be about defending myself or any of my choices in how I have interacted with Kevin. I am far more concerned about him and the state of his soul. Before I leave the thread though, I will respond to the latest comments by BY, Jo, and Kevin himself, as each of you bring up important matters which deserve a reply.

BY (#88),

I can't leave the Bible out of my discussions with Kevin or any other non-Christian, for the very reason that you mentioned. The Bible speaks directly to the issue of where all non-Christians are coming from, in Romans 1:18-21. It may not be necessary to quote those exact verses with every non-Christian, and I don't always recommend it. Sometimes, having a philosophical and/or historical discussion about Christianity, with a presentation of the Gospel at some point, may be sufficient. Sometimes, it may be necessary to address how an unbeliever has been wounded by the church. With Kevin though, he was so defiant, almost from the beginning, that using Scripture to directly confront his unbelief seemed necessary.

Experientially speaking, I do have *some* understanding of where Kevin is coming from, because he reminds me of myself at an earlier age. I only became a Christian approximately seven years ago. Prior to that, I was an agnostic for many years, with a somewhat similar way of looking at things as Kevin.

Jo (#89),

The matter of "pretending" to be agnostic, in order to appeal to non-Christians, has serious moral implications. Here is a flesh-and-blood example. I don't know if you are married or not. If you are though, think of how your husband would feel if, in conversations with non-Christian men, you "pretended" to be single, in order to appeal to them, with the "good intention" of luring them into a conversation in which you could share the Gospel with them. I don't think your husband would be happy with that apologetical tactic! Similarly, we do not honor God when we "pretend" to be agnostic, in order to find common ground with agnostics, in the hope of them ultimately coming to Christ. God is far more jealous for His Bride (and rightly so) than an earthly husband is for his wife. God does not like us "pretending" that He might not be real or reliable, in order to find common ground with non-Christians.

Kevin (#91),

You are correct that you did not use curse words to "define" me (that I can remember). However, when I quoted Biblical verses to you which describe the attitude to God of *all* non-Christians (all would include you, and me, before God saved me), you became angry and wrote to me, "You don't know **** about me!"

That is cursing, and it was a direct reply to things that I had quoted from the Bible and, *exegetically speaking,* correctly applied to you, as a non-Christian, and especially, as one who made *very* critical comments about God and Christianity. Such critical comments don't come from one who is truly open to the God of the Bible.

In calling me a "bigot," you misapplied the term. I have never been "stubbornly intolerant" of your beliefs. In fact, I listened to and *engaged them* for at least a month, answering them with Biblical and extra-Biblical evidences and arguments for the truth of the Bible. A bigoted person would not have listened for nearly as long as I did to your acidic and sarcastic comments about, and objections to, Christianity. Less still would a bigoted person have engaged them and attempted to answer them for as long as I did. The bigoted response would have been, "Shut up and get away from me! I don't even want to hear what you are saying!" I listened to you and attempted to answer you, from various sources-- not a bigoted response.

In the final analysis, Kevin, you can either stand before God in all of your sins of thought, word, and deed, and be *rightly* judged by God for them, spending eternity apart from Him in Hell-- or you can come to God, asking for undeserved mercy (undeserved by *all* of us), place your trust in Christ, and know that He has taken the rightful punishment for your sins, allowing you to be in a loving relationship, for now and all eternity, with the God who is ultimate Truth, Beauty, and Reality.

I pray that the latter will be true in your case, Kevin. I sincerely do.

[96. Kevin said the following at 10:14 AM on Jun 3:]

96

Christopher #95

"In calling me a "bigot," you misapplied the term. I have never been "stubbornly intolerant" of your beliefs."

Well, you certainly weren't tolerant of my ideas:

tol⋅er⋅ance  /ˈtɒlərəns/[tol-er-uhns]
–noun
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.

3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.

Let me re-quote you one more time:

"It seems that in order for you to believe that I was taking you seriously, I had to concede that you might be right (in your various statements) and I might be wrong (in my various statements)."

This statement says that you aren't willing to allow anything I say even the possibility of being valid unless it agrees with your ideas, nor are you allowing any of your ideas even the possibility of being wrong (i.e. you're automatically right no matter what and anyone who has a different idea is automatically wrong). You certainly don't sound very interested in OR concerned for my ideas which are different from yours.

A person who is interested in or concerned for my ideas wouldn't disregard them as wrong simply because they differ from your own. Just because you read my emails ("listened" as you would call it) and responded ("engaged" as you would call it) doesn't mean you weren't being a bigot.

I did not misapply the term, because you have been anything but "tolerant" of my 'beliefs' (or lack thereof).

Again, I was not asking you to 'convert' to my side or to say that my ideas are right. I was just asking that you don't dismiss my ideas as plain wrong right away just because they're different from yours. If every non-christian did that to your ideas, well, nobody would ever become a christian.

I just wanted you to look at my ideas and see them as a real human being's sincere and concerned thoughts, not just as flat-out automatically wrong and rebelliously defiant thoughts. I thought maybe if you understood my thoughts, you could better present your arguments in a way that would be more convincing to me.

I wasn't asking you to agree with me, just to understand. And you can't understand what you don't tolerate.

So I don't think I misapplied the term bigot. Maybe I did, but from what it looks like to me, you fit the definition pretty well. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not a bigot. Maybe I did misapply the term like you said I did. But I hope you're saying that because you've truly looked at yourself and seen that you're not a bigot, and not just because you don't like being called a bigot. I'm sure there are plenty of terms you could use to define me that I don't like (overly skeptic, homophobe, hypocrite). But just because I don't like them, doesn't mean they're misapplied or inaccurate.

[97. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 12:28 PM on Jun 3:]

97

Kevin,

The "fair, objective, and permissive" in those definitions of "tolerance" refer to a person's basic attitude toward differing ideas being *expressed,* not that said person will necessarily *agree with,* or even be *open* to agreeing with, those differing ideas.

I have no problems with you, or anyone else, expressing ideas which differ with Biblical Christianity. If I did, I never would have engaged you in conversation in the first place. I am *interested* in ideas which differ from Biblical Christianity. I study various religions and philosophies (and not always from sources which promote a Christian worldview).

However, your asking me to say that those views might be *right* (and calling me a bigot if I won't) is asking me to go far beyond tolerance. It is asking me to be inconsistent and disobedient as a Christian.

Christianity requires the submission of our words, thoughts, and deeds to God. If I said that God might not be real, and the Bible might not be His word, I would not be submitting myself to God, and thus, would be deliberately inconsistent *and disobedient* as a Christian. I will tolerate anyone's differing ideas, in relation to Christianity, and I will even engage those ideas, but the fact that I will not say that they might be right does not make me a bigot.

I'm not asking or expecting that you agree with Christianity, Kevin. I'm not even asking that you be *open* to it. It is obvious, from your sarcastic and acidic remarks about Christianity, throughout our correspondence, that you *aren't* open to it. (I fully admit that I'm also not "open" to sinful unbelief in God.) However, God can change that reality within you. No sinner is naturally open to the claims of the Bible. God can make him/her open though. If He did it for me, He can do it for anyone! I pray that He will for you.

[98. Kevin said the following at 2:26 PM on Jun 3:]

98

Christopher, you are not open to any ideas that differ with christianity because you have already determined that they are all wrong. Tolerance is not merely humoring someone else's opinion (i.e. letting them speak, all the while not letting a word of theirs even have the chance of possibly being right). Part of tolerance, by definition, is having a fair and objective attitude toward someone else's ideas. And determining that someone else's ideas are wrong before you even hear them, simply because they differ from your's is not fair, and it's not tolerant. It's like you're a juror letting the defendant present his/her case, even though it won't make a bit of difference because you've already determined that they're guilty, and everything they say is wrong unless it agrees with what you think, no matter what they say or what evidence they present. Sure, you have no problem with the defendant expressing their case, but it doesn't mean you're truly listening to what they're saying, and it doesn't matter what they say because nothing can change your mind. That's called being narrow-minded, remember?

nar⋅row-mind⋅ed [nar-oh-mahyn-did]
–adjective

1. having or showing a prejudiced mind, as persons or opinions; biased.

2. not receptive to new ideas; having a closed mind.

It's not just about letting other people express their ideas, it's about being receptive to them. What would be the point of anyone expressing their ideas to you if you've already determined that they're wrong?

Christopher, put your words into any non-christian's mouth and nobody would ever come to christianity.

"However, your asking me to say that those views (christianity) might be *right* (and calling me a bigot if I won't) is asking me to go far beyond tolerance. It is asking me to be inconsistent and disobedient as a (muslim, atheist, rationalist, evolutionist, mormon, pagan, satanist, etc.)."

In order for any non-christian to 'come to Christ', they would have to be willing to allow ideas other than their own at least the possibility of being right. They would have to admit that they might be wrong and that christianity might be right. Whenever you 'witness' to a non-christian, you are asking them to do something that you yourself are not willing to do; allow someone else's idea a chance to be right. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them, or to 'convert' to their belief, just to be open and fair and receptive to their idea. Allow their idea a chance at being something more than just plain 'defiant' and 'wrong'.

You're asking us non-christians to hold an attitude toward your beliefs and ideas that you're not willing to hold toward our's. Isn't that like...hypocrisy or something?

[99. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 3:25 PM on Jun 3:]

99

Kevin,

My hope or expectation for non-Christians is *not* that they will be "objective," when it comes to considering the claims of Christianity. According to Christianity's *own teachings,* as recorded in the Bible, that would be an utterly false hope/expectation.

The Bible teaches that *no* sinner is naturally objective, open, or willing to come to Christ. Romans 3 clearly says that no one seeks God. Therefore, my hope is not that you will be objective toward Christianity, or that I will be able to convince you, in and of myself, of the truth of Christianity.

My hope is that God will change your heart and open your eyes, because according to the Bible, as far as *your current attitude to God and the things of God,* you have a heart of stone and sin-blinded eyes (Ezekiel 36:26 speaks to this, as does Paul in Romans, chapters 1-3).

My prayer is that God will change your heart and open your eyes, because if the Bible's testimony about unbelievers is true, you aren't currently any more truly "open" to Christianity than I am "open" to the sin of anti-Christian heresy. My hope is in God's transforming power, not in your, or anyone's else's, "objectivity."

Your concept of tolerance puts postmodern ideas into the dictionary's definition. "Tolerance" of differing ideas means to *tolerate* those ideas, not to say that may actually be right. Saying that they may be right is not tolerance-- that is possible acceptance.

However, with you, I *did* go beyond mere tolerance, in actually listening to what you thought (listening does not, in and of itself, mean agreeing to an idea's possible validity-- that's another postmodern idea) and in responding with evidence and arguments, from within the Bible and outside of the Bible. That is much more than merely "tolerating" differing ideas-- it is actually engaging them.

Your idea of "tolerance" is that no one can believe that a certain worldview is definitely, absolutely true or right. This is not tolerance. It's postmodern relativism.

[100. Kevin said the following at 5:20 PM on Jun 3:]

100

LOL! Well, I guess if anyone wants to know anything about me, they can just ask Christopher or look in the Bible and find everything they need to know about my mind and 'heart'. Forget what I say, I'm just a sinful anti-christian heretic. Why would you ever listen to me? What could I ever possibly say that could be true, or even worth listening to? I pretty much only speak lies anyway. I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about. The Bible says I have a heart of stone and sin-blinded eyes. And since that Ezekiel guy said it, it must be true.

Thanks for tolerating me though. I'm glad my words fell on ears that could stand to hear them, but couldn't bear to consider them as anything more than false postmodern heresy.

Maybe someday, God will bless me with christianity too. Then maybe I can be a narrow-minded, hypocritical bigot who's right no matter what.

[1. Ronnica said the following at 11:54 AM on May 20:]

1

I've always had a special place in my heart for Muslims, but I'm sure that's been helped by visiting a Muslim country and getting to know the people. But like Dr. Mohler points out, I do not honor and respect a religion that denies Jesus Christ as God.

[2. Scott said the following at 12:02 PM on May 20:]

2

I don't mean this to sound trite, but it seems pretty simple to me. Jesus said “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." (Luke 6:27,28)

Are we going to obey Him or not?

I don't see an escape clause here. Not if they hate us, not if they threaten us (or our loved ones), not if we disagree with their belief system, not if we deem their actions evil.

That's hard. Jesus didn't say it was easy, He just told us to do it. Do I wrestle with this? Absolutely. But it seems like we must continue to wrestle with it, not be content to just say we can't follow it.

[3. Jordan Peacock said the following at 12:21 PM on May 20:]

3

It has been absolutely ridiculous, the amount of concern, consternation, caveats and other hemming and hawing Christians have given me about have any interaction at all with the Muslims in my local community - God forbid that I befriend one or speak frankly about spirituality with another.

Everyone should go listen to the song 'Allah Allah Allah' by mewithoutYou now.

[4. IMO said the following at 12:25 PM on May 20:]

4

Scott,
That verse is applicable if the post was titled, "Do you love Muslims?"

See comment #1 for what the post is really getting at. Pretty simple to me.

[5. Texas Craig said the following at 12:32 PM on May 20:]

5

Scott:

Yes, yes, yes! There is no place for a follower of Christ to do anything but love Muslims. That is why it is so disheartening to me to hear so-called "Christians" comment that they would like to "send them to Allah" or "wipe them out." Too often, the church has bought into the cultural view that we need to fight Muslims because they want us dead. Who cares if they want us dead? Didn't the disciples usually end up martyred? But, their enemy was not people, but rather spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly realm. Moreover, they did not seek to "fight" people, but rather they sought to preach the gospel in season and out of season. That is our calling -- not to fight Muslim terrorists!

[6. Mo said the following at 12:34 PM on May 20:]

6

Well stated. Respect and love the persons, but not their ideology.

Islam is the most intolerant religion on the face of the earth. Those non-Muslims who continue to defend it the most are those who refuse to read the Koran. If they did, they'd see the hatred that is in it from start to finish. I was stunned when I read it last year. It was so much worse than I ever could have imagined. In fact, upon my first try I got to about page 65 and put it down for months! That's how difficult it was to get through. Not difficult to understand, but difficult to read such ugly words.

I have no respect for a religion that teaches subjugation, conversion or death as the only options for us 'infidels'.

[7. Kevin said the following at 12:37 PM on May 20:]

7

Why is it ok to base your beliefs off a book (the Bible), but not ok to base your beliefs off a book (the Quran)?

[8. Bree said the following at 12:55 PM on May 20:]

8

I agree 100% with Scott, it's not difficult to understand how the Lord has intended us to treat each other. This applies to everyone we disagree with. Yes you can disagree, but we need to be respectful, humble and loving to all people, period. Even keeping in mind the percentage of the Muslim population that are neutral or friendly to Christians, it is the ones who are hardened against us that need our kindness and love the most. Pray, people! Ask for ways to spread Christ's love by blessing those who hate him.

[9. obewan said the following at 1:20 PM on May 20:]

9

So how do I respect a religion whose followers want to kill me? Or support those who plot and plan to? (Motte)
-------------------------------------
That is a hard question for me to swallow because of the example I am thinking of.

How did Jesus show respect for those who plotted to kill him?

[10. Annika said the following at 1:33 PM on May 20:]

10

I find it easier to respect people of ANY faith than I do atheists. While they may not accept Jesus, they at least believe in one, sovereign God, and believe that living according to His precepts (even if we disagree about what those are) is essential to happiness and salvation. I find this more worthy of respect than atheists or agnostics, who will not admit to submitting to any higher power at all.

[11. Bernie said the following at 1:42 PM on May 20:]

11

I took a course this year at a Christian college called "Understanding Islam", and God totally opened my eyes and my heart to Muslims and finding ways to pray and minister to them.

They're trying so hard to seek God, even seeking him harder than most Christians are, but there is such a great misunderstanding about the character of God and who Jesus is. They're dedicated, but taught not to question anything, and live in ritual and the fear of God without understanding the love of God.

If we truly are dead to self, and understand that souls are more valuable to God than anything, how can we NOT be compassionate towards lifting the veil for these people and sharing Jesus with them in a way they'll understand?

[12. Reid said the following at 1:51 PM on May 20:]

12

Statistics shouldn't be used to rationalize blanket disrespect of a religious group.

Has anyone ever read or heard the myriad statistics that indicate how slight the correlation is between Christianity and lower rates of sinful behavior? Someone could use those consistent findings to rationalize that Christians as a group are hypocritical. Then this person meets you, finds out what you believe, and automatically assumes you are a hypocrite. Have the statistics made it any more fair?

[13. Rima said the following at 2:12 PM on May 20:]

13

I'm an American citizen born to Lebanese parents. As a result, I've had the opportunity to spend time in the Middle East and bits of Africa. Many of the Muslims that I have interacted with have shown me so much kindness and hospitality; yet, at the same time, I have seen men behave terribly in the name of Islam.

One thing I have noticed is that those in the former category accept Islam as the only truth available to them, while those in the latter group use Islam as a means to a selfish end. Though united in name, the two groups function on completely different levels. When I interact with Muslims, it's helpful to remember this diversity.

Dr. Mohler summed up the appropriate Christian response--to Islam and all other non-Biblical positions--with great wisdom.

In my experience, I have found the most important thing that aids in loving and respecting Muslims (but not Islam) is to remember that before the cross we are all the same.

[14. anonymous said the following at 2:38 PM on May 20:]

14

The problem I have with "Respect the Muslims but not their beliefs" is that, somehow, it never seems to work out that way. Somehow, it always works out that Muslims end up being "hated" anyway. For some people, Islam is a huge part of their lives, and if you are going to shut your eyes to that and "disrespect" that part of their life, you will never get to know them, or have any kind of meaningful relationship with them at all, since you are rejecting something that is an essential part of who they are. Scott, I like what you had to say. Bernie, I think you are really on to something.
Two of the men I have had the most respect for in my life were both Muslim imams. One was a refugee from Afghanistan. He fled for days over the mountains when the Communists overran Afghanistan, and got to Pakistan with bloodied feet. He is one of the most "Godly" men I've ever known, as far as integrity, moral character, and kindness goes. But if my mind had been full of "I hate the Islamic religion. It is so intolerant and evil!" I would never have given him a chance. I'm glad that I did, because he is an example to me of what a "god-fearing" person should be like. Mo, I've read the Koran, and I don't know what you're talking about. I think people read into the Koran (and other religious texts) exactly what they want to read into them. You came to the Koran expecting to hate it, and you found what you wanted. (Note: Please do not take this to mean that I believe the Koran is holy scripture or even that I deny that there could be offensive passages in it.) There are people who think the Bible is a book of intolerance and that it promotes genocide. There are people who are upset by the fact that God sent two bears to maul two young boys for insulting one of God's prophets.
The Koran starts out by praising God: "Praise be to God. The Lord of the Worlds. Thee do we worship, and thine aid do we seek." (Surah al-fatihah)In my line of work, I could not have gotten very far if I'd had an intolerant view of the Islamic religion. Al Mohler can afford to be intolerant. Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. God Bless everyone, whatever attitude you decide to take for yourselves.

[15. Melisssa S. said the following at 3:19 PM on May 20:]

15

Great reminder, Motte. It's so easy to forget about the person when you're feeling outrage against their religion. I don't know any Muslims, myself, but I do know people who have been persecuted by them and it's important to remember that Muslims need Jesus just like I do.

Kevin #7- Well, it's the difference between following a book (love your enemies, pray for those that mistreat you for Jesus' sake, Jesus is the only way to salvation)...

and following a book (kill your enemies, mutilate those who cross your beliefs, if you do enough good things you might get to heaven).

It's the difference between any two books where one has credentials, authenticity, and positive life-changing ability) and the other just doesn't. Kind of like conflicting diet advice: eat eggs! don't eat eggs! eat carbs! don't eat carbs!! eat protein! don't eat protein!!

Better figure out which book is a good one to base your life and salvation on because they both can't be right.

[16. Giselle Aguiar said the following at 3:27 PM on May 20:]

16

Jesus calls us to love one another and pray for our enemies. We must respect other people no mater what they believe in or what they practice. If we try to force the truth upon them, all that will accomplish is antagonism. We need to show love - the love of Christ through our actions and words. We need to live our lives as Christ taught us - showing compassion.

[17. Rachael said the following at 4:11 PM on May 20:]

17

You hear it said, "Love the person, hate the sinner."

I think I can understand the "Love the person, hate the sin" if it comes to a non-believer and separating the religion vs. the person.

Or if someone were to introduce me to an imprisoned mass-murderer, I might have some compassion on him or not feel too strongly against him if I didn't personally know the people who he killed. I don't know; it's hypothetical. If he killed someone I knew or loved, I might feel differently.

But, if the person's behaviors (irrespective of religion) specifically affected my feelings negatively, it would be hard for me to clearly see a difference between not respecting those behaviors and not respecting the person...

[18. Belle said the following at 4:15 PM on May 20:]

18

Great piece. I have a very close, and wonderful friend who is Muslim. She is also one of the kindest, and genuine people I have every met. While she is not a Christian, I always see what Christ wants me to be in her actions.

But since we live in a 'conservative' and white area, many people torment her for her religion. I have heard many people ask if she is related to Bin Laddan (I know I misspelled it!!). She is not though.

But piece is very good. I think we all need to respect the people of other religions, faiths, whatever, but not what they believe. Just like Christ.

[19. BDB said the following at 5:13 PM on May 20:]

19

It is an interesting question.

I know a Muslim woman who was educated at Catholic schools in the Middle East. Her parents wanted her to have an American education, and they allowed her to opt out of the religious portions. When she tried to do the same - enroll her children in Catholic school here they were apparently suspicious of her motives and refused.

A Sikh family near my parents got hassled a lot after 9/11 because of the turban. But they're not Muslim. Their solution was to put a Texas-sized American Flag out front of their house.

Part of this discussion needs to be political. In America, there are lots of people living side-by-side peacefully that are at war in other parts of the world. We can definitely debate how much of that is religious, how much is ethnic, and how much is economic interests at play. But I do believe it is entirely appropriate to challenge those who come to America to really think through their worldview - whether religious or ethnic - and identify what parts of that worldview, if any, that might conflict with living with their neighbor peacefully.

Heck, the UK had several centuries of Protestants and Catholics killing each other. That doesn't happen any more, does it?

Oops...just remembered Northern Ireland...(SIGH)

[20. Charity said the following at 6:19 PM on May 20:]

20

#7 I understand your question, Kevin, and I am sure you're not the only one who wonders about this. In my opinion, the difference is a mighty big one. I absolutely believe (as do most Christians) that the Bible is God's inerrant, perfect, powerful Word. That being said, unlike orthodox Muslims, Christian beliefs are not only tied to our scriptures; they are based on the eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many Christians have lived (and currently live) without ever having the privilege of reading or even touching a Bible. There have been many times that dictatorial leaders have tried to crush the Christian faith by banning or burning the word of God, but their efforts have always been in vain because our faith is rooted in the only living and active God.

[21. Leah said the following at 6:23 PM on May 20:]

21

Just to point out... your question on Facebook was not "Do you respect Islam", it was "Do you respect Muslims". Big difference.

Kevin (7) - our issue with Muslims has nothing to do with the fact they base their beliefs off a book. It's the content of the book which we take issue with. Your comment is as absurd as saying "Why is it ok for a 7 year old to watch a movie (Cinderella) but not ok for a 7 year old to watch a movie (Sin City)?"

IMO (4) - Respecting someone is usually part of loving them. Comment #1 specified that she does not respect the religion, but I'm sure she still respects the people. None of what she said is contrary to what Scott (2) said.

Motte, I don't think any Christian would advocate respecting Islam. But there is no way we can say this equates with not respecting Muslims, and I have no idea how you can even ask the question about whether we should respect Muslims. The idea that we should think lower of one type of people because of their religion is ridiculous.

[22. Kevin said the following at 6:32 PM on May 20:]

22

Have you read the Quran Melisssa?

"It's the difference between any two books where one has credentials, authenticity, and positive life-changing ability) and the other just doesn't."

I'm not sure what credentials you're talking about (as if Paul somehow has more than Mohammad). I'm not sure how you consider the Quran to be un-authentic. And I'd be interested to see how many Muslims would tell you that the Quran did not change their lives in a positive way.

"Better figure out which book is a good one to base your life and salvation on because they both can't be right."

You're right, they both can't be right. But they both CAN be wrong. Not that that's necessarily the case, but it's a possibility.

[23. Kellie said the following at 6:57 PM on May 20:]

23

I used to work with a lady who was muslim. She was probably my favorite co-worker as she was cheerful, kind and had a great sense of humor. But she got a lot of grief from clients for wearing her head scarf.

[24. Chris said the following at 7:01 PM on May 20:]

24

Annika writes:

"I find it easier to respect people of ANY faith than I do atheists. While they may not accept Jesus, they at least believe in one, sovereign God, and believe that living according to His precepts (even if we disagree about what those are) is essential to happiness and salvation. I find this more worthy of respect than atheists or agnostics, who will not admit to submitting to any higher power at all."

Does ANY faith include Buddhism? Buddhism really doesn't have a god. Then again, neither does Hinduism. Well, some branches do, but others don't and there are also multiple gods in some branches.

Hop on over to Wikipedia and search the list of religions for more. You'll find some that don't include a concept of a sovereign god or perhaps include multiple gods/spirits/forces/etc. Would adherents to these garner more respect from you than atheists? Would they receive less than Muslims?

And while we're on the subject, who would you respect more, a) an atheist who has thought long and hard about religion/faith/afterlife/god/etc. and decided there can be no god or b) someone who believes a particular religion because that's the way he was raised and sees no reason to change?

You can find ignorant atheists who think religion is just "stupid" or a crutch for the "weak" and so forth. Then again, you can find some that are highly knowledgeable about religion and faith and may even know more about the Bible than you. You'll find them as diverse as Christians.

Do these latter individuals deserve less respect than Muslims?

[25. Texas Craig said the following at 7:08 PM on May 20:]

25

BDB (#19) wrote "Their solution was to put a Texas-sized American Flag out front of their house."

When I first read that, I thought they put a Texas flag up, and I thought to myself "rock on!" :-) Then I realized I read it too quickly. Still a cool flag though!
;-)

[26. farmer Tom said the following at 9:41 PM on May 20:]

26

re·spect

1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern.

n.

1. A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem. See Synonyms at regard.
2. The state of being regarded with honor or esteem.
3. Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.

Sometimes we must define our terms before we can have a coherent discussion.

Using the above definitions of respect, I can not Biblically respect a Muslim. They are deceived and believe the deceiver.

So then we can show them the love of Jesus Christ, but to give them deferential regard or to honor them makes a mockery of the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ said, " I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father, but by me." Muslims do not believe that statement, therefore they are not to be regarded as one would regard a brother and/or sister in Jesus Christ.

Pray for their salvation, witness to them, show them the truth of the gospel, but do not respect their false belief system and it's Satanic lies.

[27. BDB said the following at 11:18 PM on May 20:]

27

Texas Craig (#25) wrote:

>>When I first read that, I thought they put a Texas flag up, and I thought to myself "rock on!" :-)<<

Well, that might be a little TOO obvious in Washington...but you get my meaning. This was not a 3x5 Home Depot flag...big ol permanent flag pole and everything.

But it's understandable that they wanted to make sure everyone knew where their loyalties lie. And there are a lot of immigrants who are in the U.S. because they understand freedom is important - otherwise they never would have left their home country.

[28. Texas Craig said the following at 11:54 PM on May 20:]

28

Farmer Tom has it right, that we must agree upon a definition before we can answer a question. I am not sure whether I agree with his definition or not. Here is why:

1 Peter 2:17 says: "Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king."

Similarly, 1 Peter 3:15 says: "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."

Both of those passages indicate that we are to act out of respect regardless of the person. In the first passage, we are to show respect to "everyone." (not limited to believers or certain groups). In the second passage, we are to share the gospel with gentleness and respect. This is presumably directed toward an unbeliever, since that is who we are primarily expected to share the basis of our hope.

So, respect in those situations is given regardless of the person. As such, I would say the Bible tells me that I should show respect to a Muslim (or anyone, for that matter).

[29. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 12:27 AM on May 21:]

29

Kevin (#22),

Logically speaking, why would a Christian *not* think that Paul has more "credentials" than Mohammad, as Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God, and Paul was one of Jesus's apostles?

Of course, this has everything to do with what one considers to be "credentials" in the first place and with how one even evaluates such things. How do you evaluate spiritual "credentials," Kevin?

Also logically speaking, if a person believes that Paul and Mohammad both have equal "credentials," why would that person even *be* a Christian?

Again, this really gets down to what one considers to be "credentials," spiritually speaking, in the first place. One's answer to that question will largely determine where one stands in relation to the God of the Bible.

[30. Hannah said the following at 12:44 AM on May 21:]

30

From my experiences studying and working in two different Islamic countries over the past few years as well as visiting several others, I have met people with quite a range of idealogies.

I spent time in an Arab country which I found to be pretty religiously conservative. I met people who supported the insurgency in Iraq, who practiced polygamy, and who aggressively tried to convert me to Islam. But in the country where I am currently (a region dominated by a non-Arab minority group in an Arab country) people are much more open-minded. I have met people here who are very interested in reading the Bible and have visited church when invited by their Christian friends, support the US in Iraq, and are against polygamy. So, a lot of the "40-70%" probably depends on what ethnic group, what country, what their experiences are with Christians, etc.

But in any case, both the fanatical and the open-minded are all equally close to my heart and the subject of many, many prayers. :-) I love them both, and I will even say that I think "fanatacism" can be a gift ... I dream that when those kind of people come to Jesus they will have a very zealous devotion to him that someone with a more tolerant personality won't necessarily have. Look at Saul of Tarsus. He was a "fanatic" before his conversion, and I think he stayed a "fanatic" after his conversion ... only now he was a fanatic for the right cause. ;-)

[31. Lola said the following at 3:51 AM on May 21:]

31

I don't have any problem respecting or loving Muslims or people of other religions. First because I remember that they too are created in the image of God, in fact it's obvious. Secondly because I know that God loves them passionately and wants them in His Kingdom. Thirdly, I love God. Fourthly, it was for the unsaved; for sinners that Jesus suffered and died on the cross . Furthermore, I was once lost like they are until I was saved by grace and I believe that they too can be saved.

I'm not significantly concerned about the fact that Muslims might want me dead to the extent that I could become unable to respect them. I'm more passionate and saddened by the fact that they (people of other faiths) will spend eternity in hell unless they come to acknowledge that Jesus is Saviour and the only way to the God.

[32. anonymous said the following at 5:50 AM on May 21:]

32

so Farmer Tom, by your own definition, you cannot respect any non-Christians? Do you think Jesus would act the same way?

[33. Dan Gill said the following at 7:48 AM on May 21:]

33

I have always respected Muslims in general, and I have had friendships with some Muslims in particular. I do find it hard to respect those of the radical persuasion who want to kill me and mine. That's my struggle.

[34. Joyce said the following at 8:59 AM on May 21:]

34

Yes, I respect Muslims. In fact, I also pray for them and their conversion.

[35. k. said the following at 10:05 AM on May 21:]

35

Let's flip that around: do you want them to respect us?

[36. Nate said the following at 10:26 AM on May 21:]

36

Kevin (#7 and 22):

Have you ever read the Qur'an? I'm guessing you have--in English, which Muslims would say isn't really the Qur'an.

At any rate, if you read it critically (i.e., subject it to the same sort of textual criticism and exegesis that you would the Bible), you realize pretty quickly (a) how badly it's written (in Arabic), and (b) how much awful content is mixed in with the more vanilla "praise be to God" stuff.

For example, there are grammatical errors. Muslims try to dance around that as best they can, but I have yet to see a reason better than "it's in the Qur'an so it's correct grammar." Arabic grammars were written only AFTER the Qur'an, and they were based on pre-Islamic poetry and the Qur'an. Although if in doubt, they made the grammar fit what was in the Qur'an, even if it was abnormal.

An example of one such grammatical error: in 5:69, the word "saabi'uun" is nominative when it ought to be genitive. That's a kindergarten mistake for an Arabic speaker. Muslims will say it's for rhetorical effect. Nope. The exact same phrase appears in 22:17, and there the word is correctly declined as "saabi'iin." One of them is right, but not both.

I might point out that I have a master's in linguistics. And I speak Arabic.

Arab historians even point out that Muhammad's followers pointed out the errors to the third caliph, 'Uthman ibn 'Affan. He replied that it doesn't change "haraam" (forbidden) to "halaal" (clean). But that's a huge admission, because Muslims have backed themselves into a corner by saying that the Qur'an is (a) eternal, (b) infallible, and (c) a miracle of God. Somehow grammatical errors don't seem to fit those designations.

How all of that fits into the context of Muslim evangelism is beyond the scope of what I'm saying here; my point is that if you strip away the facade that Muslims have erected over the Qur'an and look at its content objectively, you realize what a mistaken and destructive piece of "literature" it actually is. And how VASTLY different it is from the Bible.

(Yes, I know people will yell about "genocide" in the OT. Most of them are just repeating something they've heard from somewhere else. Read the OT, research the history of the ANE, and see if you feel differently.)

So please, no nonsense about how noble the Qur'an is. It's not.

Last point: I liked #2. Well said. I grew up in a Muslim area of West Africa and went to high school in an Asian country. I had more Muslim friends in the first 20 years of my life than Christian. I love them dearly, but it's the deception they've been born into and raised amid that I have zero respect for.

[37. Kevin said the following at 11:35 AM on May 21:]

37

Christopher #29.

"Logically speaking, why would a Christian *not* think that Paul has more "credentials" than Mohammad, as Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God, and Paul was one of Jesus's apostles?"

Well, logically speaking, one would have to think that Paul has better "credentials" than Mohammad BEFORE becoming a Christian. I mean, why would someone believe Paul's writings (or any of the Bible's writings) instead of Mohammad's writings without knowing which writer(s) has better credentials first? That is something a person should find out before making the decision to follow the Bible instead of the Quran, or vice versa.

What you're saying is that Christians think the Bible has better credentials because they follow its writings (they're Christian). But that sounds backwards. Shouldn't Christians follow the Bible's writings BECAUSE it has better credentials? And if that's the case, knowing the credentials comes before being a Christian. So it should be that you're a Christian because you think Paul has better credentials than Mohammad, not that you think Paul has better credentials than Mohammad because you're Christian.

It's like saying classical music is good because you listen to it. But it should be that you listen to it because it's good.

So again, how do you figure that Paul's credentials are better than Mohammad's?

"How do you evaluate spiritual "credentials," Kevin?"

Well, seeing as how Paul (and the rest of the Bible's writers) and Mohammad are dead, I'd say the only credentials a dead guy's writings have is proof. And neither Paul nor Mohammad have much of that. But, that's an opinion, and it could be wrong.

Obviously a Christian will think that Paul has much more proof of his claims than Mohammad does, and a Muslim will think that Mohammad has much more proof of his clams than Paul does. However, the flaw there is that most Christians haven't read the Quran and most Muslims haven't read the Bible, so their arguments on which book has more proof (better credentials) are pretty flawed.

Personally, I don't think either book offers much for credentials, but this isn't about me, it's about you. And since my original question has been branched off into the credentials category, I'll ask again; What credentials are you referring to, and how do you figure that Paul (or any other Biblical writer) has more than Mohammad?

And Nate #36, you're right. I have read it in English, and I pretty much agree with you. In my opinion the Quran is a pretty lame excuse for "the word of God" both in origin and in logic. I don't cling to the Quran as truth or try to defend it as such or anything like that.

On the other hand, again in my opinion, the Bible isn't a whole lot better, especially when you consider its evolution throughout history (although I DO think it is better than the Quran).

[38. farmer Tom said the following at 12:06 PM on May 21:]

38

32. anonymous, no I do not respect unbelievers. They are wrong. They do not know or understand the person and work of Jesus Christ.

I will treat them with dignity because they are created in the image of God. I will be polite and kind, pray for their salvation, and love them. But, I do not respect them.

28. Texas Craig, here's the deal, you quoted from some translation which, I do not know, and you did not give a source. The KJV does not use the word respect in either of those verses. So, in the original language what did the author intend?

Using Romans 13 as a guide, Paul says to give honor (bold type) WHOM HONOR IS DUE (end bold). I believe honor and respect are at least partially different. And by implication, I think we are to honor

honor: probity, uprightness. Honor, honesty, integrity, sincerity refer to the highest moral principles and the absence of deceit or fraud. Honor denotes a fine sense of, and a strict conformity to, what is considered morally right or due:

those who deserve honor, but I believe it is a misuse of the language to claim that honor and respect are equal.

I honor the office of the president of the United States of America.

I have nothing but contempt for the socialist, baby-killing, fascist who currently holds that office.

He does not merit my honor because he is not worthy of my honor. In the same way, he does not get my respect. He has failed to live to a standard (The Bible) which makes him worthy of respect.

This is not intended to start a long discussion on BHO. I simply used that as an illustration.

In my opinion, both respect and honor are merit based. You can earn my respect. Similarly, I honor those who are worthy of honor.

Does that help?

[39. Tim Horbert said the following at 12:57 PM on May 21:]

39

Certainly an attention-grabbing post! Excellent job bringing up a topic that deserves thought.

It's a slightly misleading argument though. Not sure if Motte realizes it, but he's actually created two very different statements that he lumps together as one.

The title of the post asks if we respect Muslims ('Do You Respect Muslims?'), yet the middle of the post shifts to asking us if we respect Islam ('So how do I respect a religion whose followers want to kill me?').

It's important to not let our view of Islam relate to how we treat its followers. Keep in mind Christ loved us before we knew Him. Let's extend that love to others who don't know him yet.

[40. Cassandra said the following at 3:18 PM on May 21:]

40

Rima #13

I'm not sure what you mean by before the cross we are all the same. The statement is true, but to a degree. We're all the same in that God created each one of us and desires that we would all become saved. However, when Christians and Muslims look at the cross, we're not all having the same reaction to it. Christians believe that because of Jesus' death on the cross, we have overcome the effects of sin and death and are heirs in eternal life. However, the cross doesn't mean anything to Muslims. If anything, I think it's an offense. So, more accurately, we are not the same before the cross, because by the cross some of us are saved, and by the cross, the ones who reject it are condemned.

Not to say that I wish that Muslims be condemned, of course. God does make it clear that he wishes all people to be saved. 1 Tim 2:4. There are many Muslims in countries where Christianity is strictly forbidden and severely punished that have been having dreams about Jesus and have been becoming Christians - even risking their own lives. I am so blessed to see how Jesus is working in those countries where missionaries are forbidden. He loves Muslims and wants to call them to him.

[41. Texas Craig said the following at 3:26 PM on May 21:]

41

Farmer Tom:

I was using the NIV. The NASB uses the terms honor and reverence. The KJV uses the terms honor and fear.

I guess reasonable minds can differ on whether "respecting" someone is that much different from "honoring" them -- and which is a higher standard.

What I do know is that I can, and should, show a general sense of civility and love toward others. Whether I define it as "respect" is subject to debate. But, I should always speak the truth in love. And, love is defined as being patient, kind, not taking into account wrongs, not provoked, not rude, etc. (1 Corinthians 13). So, whatever you want to call it, that is what we should show toward Muslims - even those that want to kill us. For that, we have been given an example in the way that Jesus related to those who killed Him.

Peace and grace!

[42. Cassandra said the following at 3:51 PM on May 21:]

42

Kevin #37

I'm sure there's another commentor who will be able to articulate this better than myself, but for starters, the Qu'ran was allegedly delivered to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel. (Similarly to how the Book of Mormon was given to Joseph Smith.) This sets off alarm bells for Christians because the Bible says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light (1 Cor 11:14).

All of the Qu'ran came from one man, Mohammed. We have to take one man's word for it. The Bible wasn't delivered to one man, by an angel, but over 40 different authors contributed to the scriptures that compose the Bible, written over a period of 1,500 years. Many of the authors of the Bible were eyewitnesses to the events that they chronicle. As far as Paul is concerned, there is extra-Biblical, historical evidence that he was responsible for killing Christians, and then he had a sudden change of heart and was eventually martyred himself for spreading Christianity. What on earth could account for that change of heart other than what he claimed was true - that Jesus did appear to him on the road to Damascus. Paul also worked side by side with Jesus' disciples, who were, of course, eyewitnesses to everything recorded in the Gospels.

Quite a bit about the Bible is miraculous. How the work of over 40 different authors over the course of 1,500 years still fits together to form a cohesive whole with the same message (Jesus is God). Also, how many prophecies have been fulfilled, including all the Old Testament prophecies which were fulfilled by Jesus.

So no, I don't feel that the two are comparable. Farmer Tom makes a good point. I think a lot of Christians view Islam as just another world religion, but it's Satanic. 1 Cor 10:20 and 1 Tim 4:1 make it clear that if you're not worship Jesus you're worshiping demons. Should we respect Muslim people? Absolutely. Should we put Islam on the same plane as Christianity? No. Let's not forget that that we do not war with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities.

Nate #36
Rock on with your bad self.

[43. Kelly said the following at 8:09 PM on May 21:]

43

The person I relate to best at my current workplace is Muslim. He and I both walk a counter-cultural path, following our faith rather than the secular worldview.

We're both seen as the "religious ones" by our colleagues. However, his is much more obvious, with regular prayer times and food restrictions.

Although we obviously disagree on the heart of our faith, we understand each other. After all, our faiths both arise from the same tradition, the same God. We know the same stories of Abraham etc.

Do Muslims hate us? I don't think so. From the conversations I've had, they believe Christians are misled rather than infidels. We can't be too outraged at their belief that we are evil. After all, don't we, as Christians, believe that the unsaved go to hell? Atheists take SO MUCH OFFENCE at that whereas we see it as a matter of fact.

I've travelled extensively in several Muslim countries - it's been dangerous on my own, and eye-opening when travelling with a male companion. I've seen firsthand the power that comes with an all-encompassing religion, where the penalty for many things that Western countries allow (e.g. adultery) is death. You don't see women in these places. They're managing the household, raising the children.

And it really does make me wonder, has the freedom we have in Jesus been taken too far?

If we still had those OT penalties, would we be much more fearful of sin?

If we, as Christians, weren't torn apart by "Western world" sins, perhaps people of Muslim faith would be able to see beyond the pain and recognise the joy we have in Jesus.

It's up to us to show them that joy and freedom and above all, LOVE.

[44. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 11:55 PM on May 21:]

44

Kevin,

Nate (#36) and Cassandra (#42) have posted very good comments on the problematic nature of the Koran and why it cannot compare to the Bible, as a trustworthy historical document (although as a Christian, I obviously believe the Bible to be much *more* than *only* a trustworthy historical document-- though it is that).

On the issue of credentials, you write that one must determine Paul's credentials *before* becoming a Christian. In your view, any other process would have things backwards. All this really says, though, is that you believe in the primacy of your own independent reasoning when it comes to "determining" whether the Bible is the word of God.

There are many forms of evidence for the Bible being God's word, but the fact is, the God of the Bible never tells us to use our reason to "determine" whether He exists and whether the Bible is His word. Rather, the Bible *declares* that He exists, and that all people already know it, but that they suppress the knowledge which they have of Him in unrighteousness.

Therefore, the seemingly "independent, objective" forms of evaluation which you would employ to "determine" the spiritual credentials of the Biblical authors are forms of evaluation which actually, in their very employment, illustrate that you are choosing self (autonomous intellect) over God (who declares that He exists and that we already know it and who calls to us to submit to Him in *every* area of our lives, *including* our reasoning and intellect).

[45. Rima said the following at 1:49 PM on May 22:]

45

Cassandra #40

I just meant that we are all need Jesus to save us from our unescapable sin. Sorry for the confusion.

[46. Kevin said the following at 3:00 PM on May 22:]

46

Christopher #44.

Ah yes, I've definitely been down this road of a debate here on boundless before (allegedly choosing self over God), and it really got nowhere. Keep telling me that I already know the 'truth' and that I'm just suppressing it, as if you know my mind better than I do. If I already knew the 'truth' and was just suppressing it, why on earth would I be posting here? Why would I ask for help in understanding exactly why all of you see the Bible as the word of God but not any other book that claims to be the word of God? What's my motivation? You seem to know my mind pretty well, can you tell me why I'm trying to understand something that I apparently already understand and just suppress?

Seriously, do you have any idea how frustrating it is to seek help in understanding the truth (this isn't the only place I'm seeking it BTW), only to be told that I already know the truth and am just suppressing it? The only thing that motivates me to do is to give up trying. I mean, what more can I possibly do? So far I've been too scared to give up trying because I still think one of these religions might actually be true. But it seems like the more I try the closer I get to giving up, and that scares me too. I don't know what to do. I'm trying my best here. I DO pray for help even though I have no clue if anyone is listening. I study the Bible, not only what it says but how it came to be, as well as the Quran and the Book of Mormon. I talk to people, Christian and non-Christian. This stuff consumes my mind, I honestly don't know what more I can do.

Oh, but wait... I already know the truth, I'm just suppressing it. Of course, I understand now. Man, that helped so much. (sarcasm)

Now, do I even attempt to post this comment? What are the odds it gets moderated?

[47. Cassandra said the following at 4:35 PM on May 22:]

47

Kevin #46

Chill out man! Chris was just quoting a verse, Romans 1:18.

That's awesome that you're seeking. I hope you find the answers you're looking for!

[48. Cassandra said the following at 4:55 PM on May 22:]

48

Christopher from Albuquerque: Albuquerque is the home of the first out-of-state Mars Hill campus! I'm jealous!

[49. Leah said the following at 12:28 AM on May 23:]

49

Kevin - I think you need to realise that the bible was compiled from thousands and thousands of manuscripts of the same books. (ie. the bible is made up of 66 individual books- each of these books have many, many ancient manuscripts). Would you be happy to look at an ancient manuscript as proof for Paul's credentials? The bible is merely a modern translation and printing of those same manuscripts.

Oh and btw... can't see anything in your post that would have resulted in it being moderated. You asked questions. Big deal. People have thrown full on insults at others before and not been moderated for it.

Oh, and re: all the "already knowing but just suppressing it" stuff: Christopher from Albuquerque was just quoting the bible, though I do think he took it a little out of context (probably without meaning to). The original bible passage points out that people (eg. African tribes) who have never heard the bible still know there is a God- they can see it in creation, and it's on their consciences. This is true- there are many stories of missionaries reaching tribes in colonial America, India, Africa, and telling them about God, only to have these tribes say "oh, we know there is a God, please tell us about him". But in our modern western society, we get "taught" SO many things that I think there's often not room for us to make our own assumptions like these tribes did. We get "taught" at school that there's no God and the world evolved this way. We get "taught" that religion is just man's made-up attempts to create meaning for himself. We've already been "given" all these "answers" that we might never come to the conclusion that a God might exist.

But the fact you're "searching" indicates that you have admitted there could be a God, which I guess is evidence of this "already knowing" thing. It's not a matter of, you already know the entire truth, just that you already know there is/could be a God. Does that make sense?

[50. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 1:15 AM on May 23:]

50

Kevin,

I am not saying that you are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness as *my personal opinion* of you; my opinion of you means nothing.

However, in Romans 1:18, the Bible states that *all* people who do not submit to and trust in God suppress the truth in unrighteousness. That includes me before I was a Christian.

Your quarrel is not with what I say about you. Your quarrel is with what God says about you in the Bible. You may say that you don't have enough evidence to trust what the Bible says. However, the Bible states that you have more than enough evidence, that the existence of the God of the Bible is plain to see, because He has *made* it plain. Again, your quarrel is not with me but with what the Bible says about you and all other non-Christians.

[51. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 1:23 AM on May 23:]

51

Cassandra,

I just went to see Mark Driscoll speak tonight at Mars Hill Campus here in ABQ! Mars Hill is not my home church though; I am a member of Desert Springs Church in Albuquerque. http://www.desertspringschurch.org/

I love Mark and his ministry and what God is doing through Mark, but honestly, I don't agree with the multi-campus church model with the "video preacher." I see no precedent for the multi-campus model in the Bible's portraits of local churches. However, I won't make a huge deal out of it here. I do highly respect and love Mark as a brother in Christ whom God is greatly using for His glory.

[52. Kevin said the following at 3:30 PM on May 23:]

52

Leah #49
"I think you need to realise that the bible was compiled from thousands and thousands of manuscripts of the same books"

Making a bunch of copies (manuscripts if they're copied by hand) of the same book(s) doesn't magically make the book(s) more true.

"Oh and btw... can't see anything in your post that would have resulted in it being moderated."

It's hard to say. I know that Ted really likes to moderate my comments, because about half of the comments I make on his blogs don't make it through. It seems Motte is a little more welcoming to me.

Christopher #50
"Your quarrel is not with what I say about you. Your quarrel is with what God says about you in the Bible. You may say that you don't have enough evidence to trust what the Bible says. However, the Bible states that you have more than enough evidence, that the existence of the God of the Bible is plain to see, because He has *made* it plain. Again, your quarrel is not with me but with what the Bible says about you and all other non-Christians."

Christopher...we have been through all of this before, exhaustively. I'm not going to argue, particularly with you, about this whole "the Bible says there is enough evidence of the Bible, so there must be enough" thing again. We tried it once and it got nowhere because you wouldn't listen to me. You heard my words, but if any of my words didn't line up with your interpretation of the Bible it was like talking to a chair.

And you're right that my "quarrel" is with the Bible, just like it is with all the other 'holy' books. But when you step in to defend what the Bible says, you step into the "quarrel" and it becomes a "quarrel" with you as well. Just like you can't quarrel with terrorism without quarreling with the terrorists who use it.

[53. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 12:51 AM on May 24:]

53

Kevin,

In your view of things, "listening" to you seems to mean agreeing with what you say about yourself. If the Bible says that the evidence for God is plain to *everyone,* and you say it's *not* plain, for *you,* do I have to go against what the Bible says in order to convince you that I'm "listening" to you? That seems to be the implication of what you are saying.

[54. Ann said the following at 8:23 PM on May 25:]

54

Kevin, this link deals mainly with evidence for the Resurrection itself rather than the Bible as a whole, but I think you might find it interesting.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm

[55. michael said the following at 5:43 AM on May 26:]

55

a lot of people who call themselves christians on this post are highly arrogant. should i disrespect white christians for all of the atrocities committed in the name of christianity against? which believe me, is far more atrocious than what islamic people have done. please get off of your high horses. who are you to judge?

[56. Zusanne said the following at 9:16 AM on May 26:]

56

One other element that makes interpreting the Koran tricky (besides the fact that they do, in fact, claim that only the Arabic is the true scripture) is their method of dealing with contradictory statements.

They teach that, when a contradiction appears, that the more modern statements apply.

Kelly (#43): "Do Muslims hate us? I don't think so. From the conversations I've had, they believe Christians are misled rather than infidels. We can't be too outraged at their belief that we are evil. After all, don't we, as Christians, believe that the unsaved go to hell? Atheists take SO MUCH OFFENCE at that whereas we see it as a matter of fact."

The difference is that believers are not actively doing whatever we can to send as many Muslims to hell. Do all Muslims feel that way? Of course not. I know my uncle from Pakistan doesn't feel that way. Many Muslims throughout the world don't.

But many do. Their speeches, their actions and the hatred for America, Israel and each other (the tension between and within the different countries for the different interpretations of their tradition) have been perpetual causes of strife for a very long time.

[57. Priscilla said the following at 10:14 AM on May 26:]

57

Just a quick comment on the "large percentages (40-70 percent) of Muslims in Muslim countries agree with terrorism".

When you speak about "Muslim countries", I assume you are referring to the nations of West Asia (otherwise called the Middle East). In fact, according to the report you linked to, only five nations -- Lebanon, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Ivory Coast and JOrdan fall into that 40-70 percent category. That completely ignores other nations with large Muslim populations.

The world's largest Muslim population lives in Indonesia, which is largely moderate (only 27 per cent agree with terror according to your survey). The second largest Muslim population in the world is in India (many people think of our neighbour Pakistan as the Muslim country, but we actually have more Muslims -- albeit a smaller percentage -- in India than in Pakistan). An overwhelming number of India's Muslims oppose terrorism.

Getting back on topic, I've learned first hand what it means to respect those from religions other than yours. Growing up, most of my friends were Hindus or Muslims. In a pluralistic society, it was a given that you respected their religious practices -- we've often shared sweets and fireworks at a multitude of religious festivals. We've been tourists together at temples, churches and mosques.

At the end of the day, though, I've tried to let all my friends know why I believe in Christ -- not just because I was born in a Christian family (family allegiance is the single largest reason for religious allegiance among many Hindus and Muslims), but because the message of the gospel is Truth and Life -- for everyone.

[58. Nate said the following at 12:30 PM on May 26:]

58

Michael (#55):

Not sure which post you're referring to.

There's no doubt that "white Christians"--meaning Caucasian peoples who call themselves Christian, at least culturally--have done some bad stuff. Is it fair to assume you're thinking slavery? If so, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I have an African-American friend who's also a linguist and who also speaks Arabic. He's spent some time in the Middle East (naturally) and his specialty is sociolinguistic dynamics among Arabs and black Africans, so he focuses more on eastern Africa. He assures me that what Arabs have done (and are doing) to black Africans has far exceeded what happened in the Western Hemisphere.

He even derisively got called "slave" once, before the culprit realized he wasn't a local. Oops. This was 2008, by the way.

I'm not trying to argue that "white Christians," as you call them, are somehow less culpable because there's a worse standard out there. But I do want to dispell the widely held misconception that somehow Arab treatment of black Africans has been benign.

[59. BY said the following at 10:57 AM on May 27:]

59

Kevin,

The whole Bible is about people talking to us, all the future generations, about the incredible love that God has for his creation. God so loved the world that He was willing to give His only son to die for us so that we can come into relationship with the Father. The Bible says “ask and receive”, so if really want to know the truth, just ask. Of course, in order to ask you have to take a leap of faith and believe that God really loves you soooo much. Then, it’s up to God to show you that he really does love you. Please ignore for now the details about all the supernatural events and the many questions that you have, and focus on the main message – the good news of the gospel that everyone who confesses his/her sins to God, will receive God’s mercy and love in his/her life. The Bible is Holy because of the love that God gives to every human heart that believes with a childish faith, and not because it was written by perfect people using perfect words and language. All the people that have written their posts to you have also witnessed to you – some more and some less so – about God’s love in their lives in a similar way to that the apostles in the Bible have written their letters that we call now a Holy Bible.

[60. BY said the following at 11:35 PM on May 27:]

60

Kevin,

Just to add: have you ever seen something perfect in your eyes – a perfect poem that makes your whole body shake, a perfect painting that elevates to a higher level, or a perfectly beautiful woman that makes you bend your knees, etc. – and then tried to put it into words and describe it in details? Have you ever seen such a perfect thing and felt helpless that it was almost impossible to put it into words? The apostles in the Bible have also had a similar experience. The main difference is that they did not face a thing or a man that they consider perfect, but they faced and met the perfect God, the Creator of all things. Can you imagine how they might have felt to try to describe something that was indescribable so that can show it, a perfect love greater than anything that we ever know, to the whole world? This perfect God have touched them so deep in their hearts and souls with his love that he has transformed radically the lives of the apostles. This experience was simply amazing and hard to “bear” and express. How do you tell such a thing? What language, what words do you use? A perfect God who loves you unconditionally for who you are, right at this moment, who loves you for just being his child, an imperfect human being who needs desperately his love. What else I can say with my own faults and imperfections in my writing, but to wish you that you have a similar extraordinary meeting with God that will leave you speechless so that you will understand how I feel now and how the apostles might have felt when they were writing their letters of the Bible.

[61. Kevin said the following at 1:30 PM on May 28:]

61

BY:

"The Bible says “ask and receive”, so if really want to know the truth, just ask."

You assume that I haven't asked...let me keep this simple. Your assumption couldn't be more wrong. I'd be willing to bet everything that I have asked more than YOU have. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but if God really does exist, to have you tell me that all I need to do is ask has got to be the sickest joke I have ever heard.

"Have you ever seen such a perfect thing and felt helpless that it was almost impossible to put it into words? The apostles in the Bible have also had a similar experience."

An emotional high does not equal truth. As a matter of fact I'd say it is usually more deceitful than truthful.

[62. BY said the following at 5:25 AM on May 29:]

62

Forgive me if I am wrong, Kevin, but it seems to me that you want to "receive" something else. You are free to go and continue living out your life in sin and for pleasure. But when the end comes, you will know that this is it. This is the end for you and you will be eternally separated from the love of God. And that was your choice while you were still alive on this earth. I hope it is at least worth it for you. I am not judging you, but I am giving you the options that you have.

[63. BY said the following at 6:24 AM on May 29:]

63

Kevin,

You said:

"An emotional high does not equal truth. As a matter of fact I'd say it is usually more deceitful than truthful."

You also said that I assumed a lot of things about you. Now, it seems to me that you assumed what I have "received" from God. And because you think you know what I have received, you do not want to believe in my kind of God and "receive" the same thing. That's why I said in the previous post that it seems to me that you want to receive something else. As a metter of fact, I have not even talked about my own personal experience with God. Believe me, it's much more sophisticated than it may seem.

[64. Jo said the following at 9:08 AM on May 29:]

64

BY (and others), the truth is we don't know why Kevin hasn't found faith in God. Can't we just say that?

We're so scared of things we can't explain, so we create our own explanations. I'm not saying we don't care about Kevin and and aren't trying to help him, but the fact is we're also terrified of admitting that we don't understand why some people ask and ask and don't receive. Maybe it is a problem with them. Or maybe God works in ways that we sometimes just don't get. We don't know, so let's just say we don't know, and pray for him.

[65. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 11:06 AM on May 29:]

65

Jo (#64),

I engaged in a lengthy e-mail correspondence with Kevin months ago. He said repeatedly that he wants to find the truth, and he wants to know if the Biblical God is the true God. For every single bit of evidence that I gave him though, both within the Bible and outside of the Bible, he basically responded, "it's not convincing to me." If the evidence was from within the Bible, he dismissed it *because* it was from the Bible. If it was outside of the Bible, he always had a "non-Biblical God" explanation for it.

Kevin's criteria for being "convinced" of the existence of the God of the Bible, and for the truth of the Bible as His word, is that God would have to "show" Himself to Kevin in a way that could never be explained as being from anyone or anything *other* than God. I pointed out to him that one can explain away almost anything ultimately.

The conversation just kept going around and around, until finally, Kevin started cursing me, using very profane language, because I wasn't willing to admit that I might be wrong in my faith in the God of the Bible. To his mind, that was the only way to prove that I was "listening" to him-- to admit that he might be right in his agnosticism, and I might be wrong in my Christian faith-- that actually, the Bible might be wrong.

The Bible does say, in the first chapter of Romans, that people know God but that they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. They may not know the explicit Gospel of Jesus Christ, but they know enough of God and His holiness to condemn them. The Bible is clear about that fact. The Biblical truth here about "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" includes all people who have not repented of sin and submitted themselves to God-- including me before I was saved, and including Kevin. If people want to disagree with it, they are disagreeing with the Bible.

Moreover, Kevin has had the Gospel presented to him numerous times (many of them by me), and I have engaged him at length, answering his questions about (or challenges and objections *to,*, really) the Bible and the Christian faith. His "seeking" looks very different when one engages it at length personally.

[66. Kevin said the following at 11:09 AM on May 29:]

66

BY #63

"You also said that I assumed a lot of things about you. Now, it seems to me that you assumed what I have "received" from God."

I wasn't talking about you. Let me re-paste the phrase I was responding to.

"Have you ever seen such a perfect thing and felt helpless that it was almost impossible to put it into words? The apostles in the Bible have also had a similar experience."

I was responding to that. I wasn't talking about you and your beliefs. I was talking about the two people you were referring to in your statement; me and the apostles. I was referring to the emotional high that one can get when they see "such a beautiful thing", as well as the fact that the apostles' experience MAY very well have been the result of an emotional high or similar experience. I'm not saying it absolutely was, but I think it's definitely a possibility. That kind of thing is far from unheard of (ever been to one of those charismatic church services?).

I mean, you're a christian right? Do you find it so hard to believe that the entire Quran came from a wishful thinking man on an emotional high? I mean, how else would you explain it? What about the Book of Mormon? Did that book really come from an evil man plotting against all of mankind, writing a religious book just for the sake of deceiving everyone? Or did it come from a guy who believed something and wanted so badly for it to be true that his wishful thinking, combined with some type of emotional high, brought him what he thought was a 'vision' and poof...the Book of Mormon. I suppose it could be the former, but the latter seems more likely to me. And how about the Bible? One wishful thinking man on an emotional high can write up some pretty interesting stuff, just imagine what a whole group of wishful thinking dudes on an emotional high can do (again, just look at the charismatic churches for an example). I honestly find it a lot easier to believe that the Bible is a product of centuries of wishful thinking than a story about a man living inside a fish or a talking garden snake.

I wasn't saying I know what you may or may not have received. And I'm not trying to resist the truth. The truth is the thing I want to 'receive'. If the Bible is the truth, then so be it. If I knew it were the truth I wouldn't hesitate to follow it to the best of my ability, no matter what it says.

The problem isn't that I'm not willing to accept God if He exists. I'm more than willing and able to. I demonstrated that in the past when I was a christian. The problem is I don't know if He exists or not. If He DOES exist, the next problem is knowing which of these holy books (if any) are really His word, because they all seem far from the 'perfect word' they claim to be. And if the Bible really is true: "Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto you," well then how many times do I need to ask for the truth before I receive it? How long do I need to seek the truth before I find it?

I know the Bible. And from my point of view, it might be true and it might not be true. I'm not saying it is and I'm not saying it isn't because I really don't know. And BECAUSE I don't know, that's what I say; "I don't know." I'm not going to claim to know something that I don't. I'm not going to say, "The Bible is God's word," unless I KNOW it's God's word. I'm just being honest with myself and (if He exists) with God. Unfortunately, it's that honesty that prompts the Bible, the Quran, the Book of Mormon, and every Christian, Muslim and Mormon on this planet to tell me that I'm going to hell (yet ironically Christians like to think they're the ones who are 'persecuted' for their beliefs). And I don't want that. And even though I don't know if a hell even exists, it still scares me. So I pray to a God that I don't even know exists for help every day. I don't get specific, I just ask for help (ask and you shall receive). I read these 'holy' books; the Bible, the Quran and the Book of Mormon every day, EVERY DAY, and talk to people like you who believe them as well as people who don't believe them in order to try and find the real truth (seek and you shall find).

So what am I doing wrong here? Why isn't God helping me? What's taking so long?

It's the fact that I've asked for help and haven't received it that makes me think that God might not exist. I can't help that I think that way, and I'm not going to deny it. So how long do I keep asking and seeking and knocking before someone answers or I decide that nobody's home?

Jo #64

"We're so scared of things we can't explain, so we create our own explanations."

I think you might be hitting the nail on the head there (maybe), but you might be hitting a different nail than you intended. "We're so scared...so we create our own explainations"... Sometimes I wonder if perhaps the Bible itself is a product of that phenomenon.

Thanks for praying for me.

[67. BY said the following at 11:39 AM on May 29:]

67

Jo,

In general, I agree with you completely. However, the enemies and the demons that we must fight are namely the prejudices, misconceptions and sheer ignorance that people have about all kinds of the really important things in life. For instance, we may use the same language but the meaning we put into our words could be quite different based on our own prejudices and life experience. We may blame the media and Hollywood that they misrepresent and twist reality, but our goal is to love in the Christian sense and educate others. It is much easier to convince someone to believe in Jesus by showing him/her a personal love and affection that he/she has never seen before. Such kind of love is the best way to prove that the world does not understand what they miss in choosing not to love God. However, it is much harder to convince someone by using words only, especially if this someone has his/her own strong ideas or misconceptions.

After all, if a person wants to believe in God, one does need any proofs to believe. Whoever pursues good and righteousness, he/she wants to believe in a God of love because he/she wants his/her goodness and righteousness to be rewarded. However, the devil masks the Christian faith as this kind of a shallow, hypocritical and judgmental thing which people use to show themselves as being better than others – a faith that can be easily used to manipulate others. But, we know that the Christian faith requires to be unselfish like Christ and love others, even our enemies, in such a way that everyone can see that this is indeed a reality that is awaiting all of us on the other side – the unselfish and unconditional love of God. It is indeed hard to break through other people’s misconceptions (as well as our own misconceptions) as every person on this planet puts his/her own thoughts and ideas in everything he/she can see, hear or read.

In other words, if you say something, I may think I understand what you say but actually I cannot understand exactly what you mean because at best I may try to put myself into your own shoes, but still my own thinking will be influencing me. The reason is that I cannot really put myself into your own shoes and thus empathize with you because I cannot feel what you feel and I cannot think the thoughts that you think. Unless, of course, you are brutally honest with me and I believe you completely, but even then we are two quite different and unique human beings. For instance, if I have a certain prejudice that A is always false, and then you come and tell me honestly that A is true, defending well your position, but my own thinking is twisted and your arguments are not addressing my hidden misconceptions, I might think that either you are a hypocrite or dumb enough to be fooled into something that you should not have been. The worst thing is that I might not realize that I have this specific prejudice, and I might be asking you all kinds of questions which are not directly related with it, thus you will never succeed in convincing me that A is not always false.

That does not mean, of course, that we should not tell the good news of the Bible to all people because we are afraid that they might have many misconceptions and prejudices. There is no other way that they will learn the truth and believe in it, and that’s why Jesus has told us to do so. Even though we desire to do what is always right and good, people hate us and persecute us and try to hurt us because we believe in God. So, there are many prejudices and wrong ideas in people’s heads and in their hearts which make them do horrible things to those who least deserve it. Because some people do not want to humble themselves and admit that God is supreme and God is the ultimate love. I hope you understand the small diamonds that I am sharing with you.

[68. BY said the following at 12:54 PM on May 29:]

68

Kevin,

The apostles talked with Jesus, walked with Jesus, saw him perform all kinds of miracles and then they saw him rise from the dead. And then, the apostles taught us what real unselfish love means by laying down their own lives in order to change the whole human kind. And I am not talking about a single act of sacrifice, but a daily sacrifice which involved loving and caring for each single person, including those that put you in jail and torture you and hurt you. Is there more convincing evidence that someone is telling the truth, because all these facts about the lives and deaths of the apostle are documented historic facts? How emotionally high can you feel when you are in jail for years and when people try to beat you, murder you and mock you year after year?

You probably know the story about the person who was waiting for God’s help while his house was sinking in the flood. First, his neighbors told him to leave, but he sat and waited for God. Then, a boat came but he still sat and waited for God to help him. Then, a helicopter came, and he still sat and waited for God. Eventually, the flood waters came in and he drowned. When he faced God, he was furious and asked why God did not help him. And God told him that He sent all these people to save him but he would not want their help. Still, in my opinion, although this is just a story, the person from the story made it to heaven, yet, he was very foolish.

My question to you, Kevin, is what kind of “help” are you looking for and what do you expect to receive from God?

As much as I know, God cares mostly about the human character and personality because that is what God relates with. If you do not have the character and personality that God wants, including for instance patience and humility and a heart that is willing to be moved by other people’s sufferings, I do not know what you expect from God if God does not want to relate with you.

Kevin, have you ever asked yourself and God to be forgiven for the mistakes you have done in your lifetime and for the people that you have hurt? You see, it is much easier to believe that there is no God because then there are no mistakes and we do not need to repent of them. We do not show mercy and mercy will not be shown to us. We act based only on our feelings about right and wrong and we do not need to give an account except to please our own selfish selves. So, if we steal or cheat or engage in sexual behavior or cheat our spouse or lie to our friends, it is all good as long as we have a good reason for it and ultimately have a good thrill out of doing it.
You know that the door is narrow and only few are chosen.

[69. Texas Craig said the following at 2:01 PM on May 29:]

69

Kevin:

I recently posted on another thread on here in response to comments from another blogger. Anyway, I think the text of my post relates to your questions as well:

"I won't try to persuade you of the rational truth of Christianity nor of the logic of creationism, etc. Further, I cannot defend the actions of many Christians over the years. But, I can tell you that so many who have called themselves Christians have lived lives vastly different from the life modeled by Jesus Christ.

I can say from personal experience that following Jesus truly is the best way to live. If you ever get to a point in your life where you are wrestling with the direction of your life or if life's burdens are weighing you down and you lack peace and/or joy, then try following Jesus and see if it doesn't prove to be the best possible way to live.

The Bible says that God is love. The Bible also says that "love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Jesus truly has the words of life. I don't know whether the earth was created in 6 days or not. I don't know if it is 6,000 years old or not. To be honest, I don't really care. Because, having tasted and seen that God is good, like Peter I can honestly say "where else would I turn? Who else has the words of life?" I am completely and utterly convinced that following Jesus is the BEST way to live. Serving others, taking no offense at wrongs, caring for the poor and the oppressed, seeking justice, loving mercy, and dying to myself have brought me the fullness of life that Jesus promised when He said "I came that they might have life, and have it to the fullest."

I don't care whether others believe what I believe. But, I do desire for them to have the same confidence, peace and joy that I have. That is honestly what I want you to have. Perhaps you already do. But, whether you have it or not is entirely your choice, and I do not care to browbeat you or anyone into some belief system. Rather, I want you to know that you are loved. Beyond what you could ever imagine, you are loved by God."

So, Kevin, my advice to you is to just start following Jesus. That's what I did when I was 18 years old and not certain of what "religion" was true. I read plenty about many, many religions. Ultimately, what Jesus said and did offered the most compelling story to me. Now, having followed Him for 20 years, I am CONVINCED that following Jesus simply is THE BEST way to live. But, please note that I am not saying "being a Christian" is the best way. Too many people claim to be Christians but do not seem to be following Jesus. That is part of why we have so many problems, because so many claim the name of Christ, but so few really follow Him.

Peace and grace!

[70. Jo said the following at 2:20 PM on May 29:]

70

BY:
"I hope you understand the small diamonds that I am sharing with you."

I don't understand how they relate to what I said. :/

[71. Jo said the following at 2:26 PM on May 29:]

71

BY,

Here's an example of what I was trying to say. I have an incurable disease. I have been prayed for many many times, I have not been healed. Now you could tell me I don't have enough faith, or you could tell me I need to claim my healing, or that I need to repent of certain sins or forgive people who've hurt me or that I need a curse lifted or a demon cast out, but these would all be attempts to explain what you cannot explain.

You don't know Kevin, and you don't know why he hasn't found faith, therefore you can't pretend to know. That's all I'm saying.

[72. BY said the following at 2:44 PM on May 29:]

72

Jo, #71

Whoever tries to save his life, will lose it, and whoever loses his life for Christ's sake, will find true life.

Jo, there is a huge difference between trying to save your physical body and trying to save your soul.

[73. Kevin said the following at 4:35 PM on May 29:]

73

Thanks you guys for your responses. I appreciate you trying to help me. I'll try to touch on each one just a little bit so this doesn't get too long.

Christopher #65

"To his mind, that was the only way to prove that I was "listening" to him-- to admit that he might be right in his agnosticism, and I might be wrong in my Christian faith-- that actually, the Bible might be wrong."

Exactly right Christopher. Just like I said, it felt like talking to a chair. You see, in order for me to truly listen to what you were saying, I would have to admit that you MIGHT be right about what you're saying about Christianity. MIGHT, that's all. If I wasn't willing to admit that, I wouldn't be listening to you, nor could I possibly understand the God of the Bible. And I did admit that you might be right. I still do.

However, you would not grant me the same privilege. You would not allow anything I said (if it differed from your interpretation of the Bible) even the slightest chance at being even somewhat credible, and immediately shut it out as absolutely wrong. That is NOT listening Christopher. The reason I didn't want to talk to you anymore (and the reason for the frustrated cursings) was because you weren't listening and you weren't putting forth any effort to try and understand what I was telling you about WHY I can't seem to accept the Bible as absolute truth. I tried to explain over and over, but it... again, it was like talking to a chair. A chair who thought he was always right. Forgive me if you were offended by my language, but it just made me so frustrated to have my point of view ignored. Perhaps if you understood it you could better help me.

BY #68

"The apostles talked with Jesus, walked with Jesus, saw him perform all kinds of miracles and then they saw him rise from the dead."

That's what the Bible says. But the fact that the Bible says it doesn't prove it to be true. The Book of Mormon says that Joseph Smith talked with Moroni, does that prove it to be true? No. The Quran says that Mohammad talked with Gabriel, does that prove it to be true? No. They COULD be true, but the fact that a book says it doesn't prove anything. I can't hold the Bible to a different standard than the other two without reason to do so. Make sense?

"How emotionally high can you feel when you are in jail for years and when people try to beat you, murder you and mock you year after year?"

If the book you follow as 'truth' tells you that if you are a 'true follower' you will be persecuted, then being persecuted is only going to make you MORE convinced that this book is true, not LESS convinced. It's the same for any religion. It's these persecutions that can usually make a person even MORE emotionally high. Persecuted muslims seem to feel more like real muslims when they're persecuted for their faith. Or look at the Westboro Baptist Church. They get 'persecuted' by almost everyone every day, and they absolutely relish it. They can't get enough of it. And it only makes them stronger in what they believe, not weaker. It reassures them, regardless of whether their beliefs are true or not.

"You see, it is much easier to believe that there is no God because then there are no mistakes and we do not need to repent of them. We do not show mercy and mercy will not be shown to us. We act based only on our feelings about right and wrong and we do not need to give an account except to please our own selfish selves. So, if we steal or cheat or engage in sexual behavior or cheat our spouse or lie to our friends, it is all good as long as we have a good reason for it and ultimately have a good thrill out of doing it."

Um...I'm not sure where you're getting that philosophy, but I certainly don't feel that way. Just because a person isn't a christian doesn't mean they're morally corrupt. Cheating, lying, stealing, killing, that stuff is wrong.

("But Kevin! How do you know that stuff is wrong without a God to set your moral standards? Where do you get your morals if not from God? Checkmate!) My morals come from the basis of equality, which is what the entire universe follows (2=2, 5=5). It is not right to take something that is not yours, because that is not equality. It is not right to cheat, or take another person's life because that is not equality. Selfishness is not equality. And so on... Basically, the golden rule is what I follow, because it's based on something I know: How I would like to be treated.

Anyway, the misconception you have about non-christians is actually pretty common, but it's not true. Selflessness, humility, sacrifice, love, all that stuff is good. One doesn't need a 'holy' book to prove that. Again, just ask yourself, "Would I want to be treated this way?"

Texas Craig #69

Thank you for posting this. It gives me a chance to explain something that some people might not know, and that is this: For the most part, I think the Bible's teachings are mostly good. I have never said that I think the Bible is wrong or that it is bad or that it is filled with lies. I admit that, for all I know, it COULD be. But again, I don't know. However, I agree with a lot of the moral teachings of the Bible. Serving others, love, selflessness, humility, charity, mercy, all that stuff is good stuff. A lot of the stuff people associate with Jesus is good in my eyes (for what they're worth). Again, all I need to do is test them out for myself to find out.

It's the dogma and know-it-all absolute certainty mindset that comes with it that I have a hard time with. It's the, "The Bible says this so it's automatically right," mindset that I have trouble with. How can I know that this book is absolutely true from cover to cover? I wasn't there when it happened. All I know is that this book says it's true, but that doesn't prove it any more than Dr. Seuss can prove that green eggs taste good. Green eggs might taste good, but I can't know unless I was actually there to taste them for myself can I?

Anyway, for the most part I agree with many of the Bible's morals. But not all of them.

I'm sure if God (if He exists) wants to convince me He could, seeing as how He's capable of doing all things. I mean the Bible itself says that we aren't the ones who choose God, it's God who chooses us right? Well...wouldn't that mean that the fact that the Bible doesn't convince me is His doing, not mine? After all, I don't CHOOSE what convinces me and what doesn't.

I seek to know the truth. I know that being kind to others is a good thing because I can go out and test it. However, I don't know that the God of the Bible created the universe because I can't test that. I don't know if it's absolute truth. So I'm not going to claim that it is. Is that wrong?

P.S. Thanks for (kinda) sticking up for me Jo.

[74. Texas Craig said the following at 11:43 PM on May 29:]

74

Kevin:

I appreciate your dialogue on this. Since you asked a question at the end of your response to my comments, I figure I will give you a response.
:-)

Kevin, you state: "However, I don't know that the God of the Bible created the universe because I can't test that. I don't know if it's absolute truth. So I'm not going to claim that it is. Is that wrong?"

I don't think its wrong. And, to be honest, I am not troubled with your questions. But, you also need to beware of seeking purely intellectual answers. The original sin of man was the decision to "eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." It was the desire to obtain knowledge - to be like God in our ability to know things - that caused our separation from our creator.

I think genuine truth is much beyond our capability to fully understand. And, paradoxically, I think that we obtain peace through faith. I was 18 when I asked God to prove Himself to me if He existed. A month or two later, I walked outside one day and looked up at the sky and I just knew that God was real. It was like a light switch flipped in my heart. That's the best way to describe what happened for me. But, that came after many weeks of asking Him to convince me He was real.

As for deciding what you believe. Well, that is your choice. I for one, believe that God opens our eyes to understand truth, but I do not believe that He chooses all who believe. I am a free will person. Calvinists would disagree. But, like I said in my earlier post, I have yet to find anyone else who has the words of life. I am not going to try to persuade you to believe, but my hope is that you will come to know (genuinely know, deep in your heart and your soul) the love of the One who made you.

Peace and grace!

[75. BY said the following at 1:15 AM on May 30:]

75

Kevin, #73

Based on what you said, if it is indeed how you feel and think and not a mask, you are very close to the kingdom of God. But what is it that is stopping you from entering it? What is stopping you from loving Jesus and seeing the hands of God in everything that Jesus has done? What is stopping you for loving God for what He has done through Jesus?

You said:

"However, I don't know that the God of the Bible created the universe because I can't test that. I don't know if it's absolute truth. So I'm not going to claim that it is. Is that wrong?"

You always have a choice, and that's why you have a free will. If you could test everything and prove everything, then you would not have a choice and a free will. God is and the absolute truth simply is, and whether you believe in them or not believe in them, God still is and the absolute truth still is. Whther you can test them and prove them, or not test them and prove them, they still are. But you have a choice to believe or refuse to believe. What is the choice that you want to make?

[76. BY said the following at 1:33 AM on May 30:]

76

Kevin, #73

About the matter of choice: we have a free will and we can choose, but God also has a free will and He can also choose what to do and how to do it. He can choose to arrange seemingly unrelated and coincidential events to happen in a person's life in order to draw this person close to Him, like it happened with me. God can also choose to reveal Himself suddenly in a bright light or to remain silent and hidden for a long time. God is in control of everything, but we still have a free will and choices to make. But the reassuring thing is that God never changes and always remains the same - He is always faithful, He always loves, He never gives up, and He never lies. God is holy, but we are not holy and pure, and most importantly we are made to need Him only. That's why we need to change and make a choice who and what are we going to believe in and who and what are we going to follow. I hope this makes sense for you.

[77. BY said the following at 11:54 AM on May 30:]

77

Kevin #73,

Just to continue from my previous posts. It is funny that you say that all these things are good: selflessness, goodness, kindness, humility, sacrifice, love, etc. However, you do not believe in the one who represents all these qualities in their most sublime form, the one who represents perfect Love and perfect Goodness to their utmost level.

What do you lack in order for you to enter the kingdom of God? You lack the Cross. You have to eat the flesh of the Son of God and drink the blood of the Son of God. You have to come before the Cross of Jesus Christ and repent of all your sins in his name, because only through the blood of Jesus (his sacrifice), you can enter in the kingdom of God. Why so? Because God has a plan for the human beings and He chooses to reveal himself to the world in such a way so that whoever believes in Jesus and his sacrifice can enter his kingdom. So there would not be any mistake to whom you belong and who God really is and what he is all about: his character and his qualities. In addition, Jesus is alive so if you call on him, he will come. When you believe in Jesus and invite him into your life while you repent of your sins, you will meet him and he will meet with you. “Ask and you will receive.” That’s what you should ask in the name of Jesus, a name above all names, and you will meet him personally.

That’s a hard teaching but you see what Jesus was all about in the Bible: the way he lived his life and the way he gave his life away. So, if you want to be part of his kingdom, you should not be afraid to ask and pray to God in His Son’s name. Everyone is invited but not everyone will enter so do the best you can before it is too late.

[78. Texas Craig said the following at 7:45 PM on May 30:]

78

BY - I think I would like you if I met you in person. I certainly like your comments!

[79. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 11:15 PM on May 30:]

79

Kevin (#73),

You wrote that I "wouldn't listen" to your statements about the Bible possibly being wrong, because I am convinced that I'm right. That is not accurate. I'm not convinced that I am right. I'm convinced that the *Bible* is right. God convinced me of it by softening my heart and opening my eyes to see its truth.

It's not a matter of whether I am right or wrong, personally. The question is, is the Bible right in all that it affirms and all that it denies? You want me to take your side *against* the claims of the Bible, in order to prove that I'm "listening" to you.

If you say, "No, that's not true. I just want you to admit that the Bible might be wrong," I can only answer with the words of Jesus, "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." (Matthew 12:30)

Are you with Jesus, Kevin? To be with Him, you have to worship the God of the Bible, because Jesus, as the second person of the Trinity, *is* the God of the Bible. He forgave others' sins and accepted worship from others as this God. No mere human does such a thing-- and Jesus was not a lunatic.

If you are not with Jesus, the Bible says that you are against Him and against God (as He is God). Saying that the Bible *might* be wrong is *not* being with God.

I am with Him, so by definition, I will not say that the Bible might be wrong-- but that does not mean that I won't listen to the questions and objections of non-Christians. It *does* mean that I won't take their side against God.

[80. BY said the following at 12:56 AM on May 31:]

80

Texas Craig, #78

Thank you, Craig. I certainly appreciate your comments too. But, unfortunately, what you asked for is impossible.

[81. Jo said the following at 2:12 AM on May 31:]

81

BY, 72: "Jo, there is a huge difference between trying to save your physical body and trying to save your soul."

I know that, it was an example. All I was trying to say was be careful about accusing people you don't know of 'wanting something different' when you actually have no idea about the reasons for their struggles. I really don't think we're on the same page here, so forget it.

However I like what you said in posts 75/6/7.

[82. EJ said the following at 3:04 PM on May 31:]

82

Hi Kevin,
I have been a Christian since I was small. Doubt has been a reoccuring theme for me. I think it's something in a person's makeup:) Anyway, at one point in my life I benefited from a book called "Reaching for the Invisible God" by Phillip Yancey, and a CD by Michael Card "A Violent Grace". I would also recommend "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel, "Suprised by Joy" by C.S. Lewis, and "The Hiding Place" by Corrie ten Boom. Heck, I could give you a reading list that would last all summer if you aren't bored to death with this list:) Don't give up. Grace and peace to you.

[83. Kevin said the following at 9:01 PM on May 31:]

83

Texas Craig, Christopher, BY, EJ, thanks for writing. I just got done writing a very long response to a few of you, but it just wasn't turning out the way I wanted (you know how that goes right?). It's late at night, one of my hard drives died today and I spent a few hours trying to figure out if I could revive it, I'm just burnt out and can't really write very well.

But even if I could, I don't think it would move things along any. I think it's getting obvious that this online dialogue isn't really helping. I mean, it kinda is in a few small ways (Texas Craig and BY, your responses have helped me to better understand how other people define belief, which is nice to understand), but I honestly don't see this coming to any kind of conclusion in which I or you or anyone comes out with a better understanding of the truth.

I could definitely write a long response to everything you have all said in order to explain why I differ, but I don't think it would do much good. They just keep getting longer and longer. So I'm going to save my efforts for something else.

Texas Craig and BY, thanks for responding in the way you did, it was very respectful, and like I said, you did help me to better understand how you view belief. While it doesn't change my view of belief, it is a good thing to understand other people's points of view. Christopher...nevermind.

I hope you guys can understand why I'm cutting out of here instead of dragging it on more (at least Texas Craig and BY, Christopher I don't expect you to understand). I need to find some other way to try and solve this belief problem I have. Hopefully, if God really does exist, He will bring me some kind of peace and understanding, or whatever help He decides to give (cuz God knows I ask for it).

Alright, that's it I'm out. Peace.

[84. BY said the following at 2:08 AM on Jun 1:]

84

Kevin #83,

Thank you for your kindness and gentleness in answering to us in your last post. It seems that this is your choice and we are not able to change your mind. Please, as a goodbye consider the words of one who considered the religion he followed (faith in good deeds and in good morals) as a loss compared to the faith in Jesus Christ:

"5 I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law.6 I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.
7 I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done.8 Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ9 and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ.* For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith.10 I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death,11 so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead!" (Philippians 3:5-11)

Our prayers are with you!

[85. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 2:23 AM on Jun 1:]

85

Kevin,

You don't expect me to understand, because I'm not willing to question what the Bible teaches, in order to find common ground with you. That's the crux of the issue. I stand with God and His word, as any Christian should, if he/she is consistent.

I do sincerely pray that God opens your eyes to the truth. He is truth; there is no basis for holding to the objective validity of anything, including logic and rationality, apart from Him. When you base your beliefs about morality on 2 + 2= 5, you are ultimately basing them on God. http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/

[86. BY said the following at 8:43 AM on Jun 2:]

86

Christopher #85,

Sorry for interfering here, but I just wanted to say that I think Kevin is right in questioning the truth of the Bible. The Bible points to the person of Jesus Christ and the fact that every person in this world can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus. So, once a person repents of his/her sins and accepts Jesus, he/she meets Jesus and Jesus meets him/her. Then, his/her eyes are open to the truths of the Bible and he/she starts questioning instead how he/she can live a life worthy of God. But without Jesus in a person's life the Bible is just another book for the unbeliever filled with miraculous events that do not make much sense. But with Jesus in a person's life the whole story changes... Very often, when we talk about the Bible, we all miss the main message - coming to faith in Jesus and meeting the risen Lord. It's certainly very easy for unbelievers to miss the main message and focus on other minor things.

[87. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 9:45 AM on Jun 2:]

87

BY (#86),

You may have missed my comment above, but months ago, I engaged in a lengthy e-mail correspondence with Kevin. This correspondence itself only happened after I dialogued with him for a while on Boundlessline. He had many, many questions about, and objections to, the Christian faith. I answered as many of them as I humanly could, but Kevin was not satisfied. If the answer/evidence came from the Bible, he didn't trust it *because* it came from the Bible. If the answer/evidence came from outside of the Bible, he always had a "non-Biblical God" explanation for it.

Kevin's overall attitude was *not* one of curiosity and openness to the Christian faith. Rather, he was defiant toward it-- even to the point that when I myself, as a Christian, would *not* say that the Bible might be wrong, he accused me of not listening to him and cursed me, using extremely profane language. He wanted me to reason on his agnostic terms, being seriously willing to consider that the Bible might not be the word of God, and when I would not do so, he became abusive.

I write the things that I write to Kevin in that context, and in the context of the teaching of Romans 1:18-21, which states that all people know God, at least on some level, but they suppress this knowledge in unrighteousness. This truth includes me before I was saved, and it includes Kevin.

As a Christian, I cannot "pretend" to be an agnostic in order to find common ground with non-Christians. I will take their questions and objections to the Bible seriously, in that I will engage them and attempt to answer them, but I cannot do what Kevin wants me to do. That would be a betrayal of the God whom I worship.

[88. BY said the following at 10:19 AM on Jun 2:]

88

Christopher #87,

I made my comment to you because I thought that you would have saved yourself all the trouble if instead of focusing on the Bible, you had tried to understand where Kevin is coming from as an unbeliever. That does not mean that you should pretend to be someone else, but that you do not engage in lengthy conversations with people whose viewpoint you do not understand.

[89. Jo said the following at 10:56 AM on Jun 2:]

89

"There is nothing liberal about treading the narrowest path imaginable yourself, but throwing your arms as wide as they'll go to greet and enfold as many others as possible." - Adrian Plass.

Christopher, if you didn't want to 'pretend to be agnostic' in your discussions with Kevin, that's totally understandable. But I don't think it's inherently wrong to do so.

[90. BY said the following at 12:11 PM on Jun 2:]

90

Christopher #87,

Please do not throw your pearls (Bible verses) to the dogs, because they may jump at you and trample them.

[91. Kevin said the following at 1:50 PM on Jun 2:]

91

Ok, I said I was done posting because I didn't think this dialoge was going to help me learn much, and I still don't think it will. But that's not why I'm posting this. I'm now posting this because Christopher is posting some inaccurate things about me, and I don't want my reputation (what little there is) to be skewed here.

Christopher #87

"Kevin's overall attitude was *not* one of curiosity and openness to the Christian faith."

I am curious and open to the Christian faith just like any other faith or religion. Granted, I am skeptical as you know. And I have good reason to be skeptical. I'm trying to find the truth while making sure to guard myself from lies, propaganda, exaggerations and false teachings. But I'm still open to it. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be here.

"he accused me of not listening to him and cursed me, using extremely profane language."

I've gone back through some of those emails, and I don't think I ever cursed YOU. I did use some words that you consider to be 'curse' words, but none of them were cursing YOU. None of them were used to describe or define you. They were used to describe how I felt (or at one point to describe what you did not know about me), in order to hopefully help you better understand how frustrated I was with you. But I never 'cursed' you, or used 'curse' words to define you.

However, I did use SOME words that described you. Do you remember those? They weren't curse words, and they were ascribed to you based on their very definition. Remember?

big·ot·ry  /ˈbɪgətri/ [big-uh-tree]

–noun, plural -ries. 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

Why bigotry? "It seems that in order for you to believe that I was taking you seriously, I had to concede that you might be right (in your various statements) and I might be wrong (in my various statements)."

There were others, but I don't want to get moderated. Although I don't know why I would, I'm just posting dictionary words and their defintions.

"he became abusive"

I did? How do you figure? I don't remember abusing you. How did I abuse you?

Christopher, I think you're drawing a caricature of me here, and I don't think that's very fair.

[92. Texas Craig said the following at 3:24 PM on Jun 2:]

92

Christopher and BY:

As an outsider looking at your posts, I think you both have made some great comments. Christopher obviously has a longer history corresponding with Kevin and that has impacted the way he communicates with him. I can respect that. I think that we all have been fairly respectful in our comments to Kevin and I trust that he, or any unbeliever, looking at our posts would be able to understand the basis of the gospel and be without excuse. Now, it is up to Kevin as to whether he can willingly die to himself and follow Jesus.

Peace and grace!

[93. brx said the following at 3:44 PM on Jun 2:]

93

I think trying to reason someone to Christ and the ensuing arguments are a big trap set by the enemy. I used to fall into it all the time with my athiest and agnostic friends. It serves only to build walls and alienate people. ...ultimately, at the root, I think it's my pride those traps go after...

Consider also, that Jesus never threw Scripture verses at people who didn't already have a background knowledge of it.

Let's pray for the sensitivity to hear the deeper, human concern behind their questions, the discernment to know if/when they are open to God's healing, and the wisdom to respond appropriately. I really think we need to be able to have discussions in open sincerity rather than be carrying an agenda to convert someone to Christianity.

If no one can come to Jesus lest the Father draws them, then we should be praying to the Father, that He will draw them. And we need wisdom to love them in the meanwhile.

Grace, peace & adventures in letting God do the convincing

[94. BY said the following at 1:35 AM on Jun 3:]

94

Kevin, #91

I’d like to apologize to you for my last comment and if I have offended you without a reason for it. My last post was more about Chris than about you. Please let me explain so that you may try to understand where I’m coming from.

In my eyes, Kevin, you might have had a very hurtful experience in your past where someone had caused you great sorrow and pain. And you might be angry and blame God for everything that had happened and for not making the other person behave differently so that you would not have had to be hurt so badly. And then, of course, if someone else comes throwing Bible verses at you, he/she will only put more salt in your wounds and make you even angrier. And then, unfortunately, anger can get the better of you and cause you to punish someone who has nothing to do with your personal agenda. That’s what might happen with Christopher next time – if not with you, then maybe with someone else.

The truth, Kevin, is that we all have our own hurts and brokenness in our lives. After all, we are all human and we are all the same in most of our experiences: we all have been cheated by our close friends, lied to, broken-hearted, manipulated, exploited and abused more or less. No one but God knows why people choose to hurt others and do what they do. However, the hardest thing is to let go of everything and move on.

For us, as Christians, the reassuring thing is that God never changes – although it may seem from our humanly perspective that He “chooses” how to behave, God cannot do anything that is contrary to His holy nature. God has given us free will to choose between obeying Him or not obeying Him, between doing good and doing wrong, between hurting others or not hurting them; however, God cannot choose to do what is evil. Love endures even when it hurts and everything seems unfair, Love remains silent when there is no use of speaking out, and Love speaks out when it can comfort, Love acts when it needs to act and waits when it needs to wait doing what is best for everyone. Love cannot change people by force but Love will always be victorious in the end regardless of all the hurt and struggles that it has to go through in the meantime. We are all as Christians longing for the moment when we will stand face to face with Love in his perfect kingdom. Even if this seems as wishful thinking for you, Kevin, I hope it makes sense why we have chosen to be a blessing for others, to forgive those that hurt us and to love.

Sorry for the long post, and I hope you forgive me for the previous one.

[95. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 2:03 AM on Jun 3:]

95

To all:

This will be the last comment that I post on this thread, as I don't want it to be about defending myself or any of my choices in how I have interacted with Kevin. I am far more concerned about him and the state of his soul. Before I leave the thread though, I will respond to the latest comments by BY, Jo, and Kevin himself, as each of you bring up important matters which deserve a reply.

BY (#88),

I can't leave the Bible out of my discussions with Kevin or any other non-Christian, for the very reason that you mentioned. The Bible speaks directly to the issue of where all non-Christians are coming from, in Romans 1:18-21. It may not be necessary to quote those exact verses with every non-Christian, and I don't always recommend it. Sometimes, having a philosophical and/or historical discussion about Christianity, with a presentation of the Gospel at some point, may be sufficient. Sometimes, it may be necessary to address how an unbeliever has been wounded by the church. With Kevin though, he was so defiant, almost from the beginning, that using Scripture to directly confront his unbelief seemed necessary.

Experientially speaking, I do have *some* understanding of where Kevin is coming from, because he reminds me of myself at an earlier age. I only became a Christian approximately seven years ago. Prior to that, I was an agnostic for many years, with a somewhat similar way of looking at things as Kevin.

Jo (#89),

The matter of "pretending" to be agnostic, in order to appeal to non-Christians, has serious moral implications. Here is a flesh-and-blood example. I don't know if you are married or not. If you are though, think of how your husband would feel if, in conversations with non-Christian men, you "pretended" to be single, in order to appeal to them, with the "good intention" of luring them into a conversation in which you could share the Gospel with them. I don't think your husband would be happy with that apologetical tactic! Similarly, we do not honor God when we "pretend" to be agnostic, in order to find common ground with agnostics, in the hope of them ultimately coming to Christ. God is far more jealous for His Bride (and rightly so) than an earthly husband is for his wife. God does not like us "pretending" that He might not be real or reliable, in order to find common ground with non-Christians.

Kevin (#91),

You are correct that you did not use curse words to "define" me (that I can remember). However, when I quoted Biblical verses to you which describe the attitude to God of *all* non-Christians (all would include you, and me, before God saved me), you became angry and wrote to me, "You don't know **** about me!"

That is cursing, and it was a direct reply to things that I had quoted from the Bible and, *exegetically speaking,* correctly applied to you, as a non-Christian, and especially, as one who made *very* critical comments about God and Christianity. Such critical comments don't come from one who is truly open to the God of the Bible.

In calling me a "bigot," you misapplied the term. I have never been "stubbornly intolerant" of your beliefs. In fact, I listened to and *engaged them* for at least a month, answering them with Biblical and extra-Biblical evidences and arguments for the truth of the Bible. A bigoted person would not have listened for nearly as long as I did to your acidic and sarcastic comments about, and objections to, Christianity. Less still would a bigoted person have engaged them and attempted to answer them for as long as I did. The bigoted response would have been, "Shut up and get away from me! I don't even want to hear what you are saying!" I listened to you and attempted to answer you, from various sources-- not a bigoted response.

In the final analysis, Kevin, you can either stand before God in all of your sins of thought, word, and deed, and be *rightly* judged by God for them, spending eternity apart from Him in Hell-- or you can come to God, asking for undeserved mercy (undeserved by *all* of us), place your trust in Christ, and know that He has taken the rightful punishment for your sins, allowing you to be in a loving relationship, for now and all eternity, with the God who is ultimate Truth, Beauty, and Reality.

I pray that the latter will be true in your case, Kevin. I sincerely do.

[96. Kevin said the following at 10:14 AM on Jun 3:]

96

Christopher #95

"In calling me a "bigot," you misapplied the term. I have never been "stubbornly intolerant" of your beliefs."

Well, you certainly weren't tolerant of my ideas:

tol⋅er⋅ance  /ˈtɒlərəns/[tol-er-uhns]
–noun
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.

3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.

Let me re-quote you one more time:

"It seems that in order for you to believe that I was taking you seriously, I had to concede that you might be right (in your various statements) and I might be wrong (in my various statements)."

This statement says that you aren't willing to allow anything I say even the possibility of being valid unless it agrees with your ideas, nor are you allowing any of your ideas even the possibility of being wrong (i.e. you're automatically right no matter what and anyone who has a different idea is automatically wrong). You certainly don't sound very interested in OR concerned for my ideas which are different from yours.

A person who is interested in or concerned for my ideas wouldn't disregard them as wrong simply because they differ from your own. Just because you read my emails ("listened" as you would call it) and responded ("engaged" as you would call it) doesn't mean you weren't being a bigot.

I did not misapply the term, because you have been anything but "tolerant" of my 'beliefs' (or lack thereof).

Again, I was not asking you to 'convert' to my side or to say that my ideas are right. I was just asking that you don't dismiss my ideas as plain wrong right away just because they're different from yours. If every non-christian did that to your ideas, well, nobody would ever become a christian.

I just wanted you to look at my ideas and see them as a real human being's sincere and concerned thoughts, not just as flat-out automatically wrong and rebelliously defiant thoughts. I thought maybe if you understood my thoughts, you could better present your arguments in a way that would be more convincing to me.

I wasn't asking you to agree with me, just to understand. And you can't understand what you don't tolerate.

So I don't think I misapplied the term bigot. Maybe I did, but from what it looks like to me, you fit the definition pretty well. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not a bigot. Maybe I did misapply the term like you said I did. But I hope you're saying that because you've truly looked at yourself and seen that you're not a bigot, and not just because you don't like being called a bigot. I'm sure there are plenty of terms you could use to define me that I don't like (overly skeptic, homophobe, hypocrite). But just because I don't like them, doesn't mean they're misapplied or inaccurate.

[97. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 12:28 PM on Jun 3:]

97

Kevin,

The "fair, objective, and permissive" in those definitions of "tolerance" refer to a person's basic attitude toward differing ideas being *expressed,* not that said person will necessarily *agree with,* or even be *open* to agreeing with, those differing ideas.

I have no problems with you, or anyone else, expressing ideas which differ with Biblical Christianity. If I did, I never would have engaged you in conversation in the first place. I am *interested* in ideas which differ from Biblical Christianity. I study various religions and philosophies (and not always from sources which promote a Christian worldview).

However, your asking me to say that those views might be *right* (and calling me a bigot if I won't) is asking me to go far beyond tolerance. It is asking me to be inconsistent and disobedient as a Christian.

Christianity requires the submission of our words, thoughts, and deeds to God. If I said that God might not be real, and the Bible might not be His word, I would not be submitting myself to God, and thus, would be deliberately inconsistent *and disobedient* as a Christian. I will tolerate anyone's differing ideas, in relation to Christianity, and I will even engage those ideas, but the fact that I will not say that they might be right does not make me a bigot.

I'm not asking or expecting that you agree with Christianity, Kevin. I'm not even asking that you be *open* to it. It is obvious, from your sarcastic and acidic remarks about Christianity, throughout our correspondence, that you *aren't* open to it. (I fully admit that I'm also not "open" to sinful unbelief in God.) However, God can change that reality within you. No sinner is naturally open to the claims of the Bible. God can make him/her open though. If He did it for me, He can do it for anyone! I pray that He will for you.

[98. Kevin said the following at 2:26 PM on Jun 3:]

98

Christopher, you are not open to any ideas that differ with christianity because you have already determined that they are all wrong. Tolerance is not merely humoring someone else's opinion (i.e. letting them speak, all the while not letting a word of theirs even have the chance of possibly being right). Part of tolerance, by definition, is having a fair and objective attitude toward someone else's ideas. And determining that someone else's ideas are wrong before you even hear them, simply because they differ from your's is not fair, and it's not tolerant. It's like you're a juror letting the defendant present his/her case, even though it won't make a bit of difference because you've already determined that they're guilty, and everything they say is wrong unless it agrees with what you think, no matter what they say or what evidence they present. Sure, you have no problem with the defendant expressing their case, but it doesn't mean you're truly listening to what they're saying, and it doesn't matter what they say because nothing can change your mind. That's called being narrow-minded, remember?

nar⋅row-mind⋅ed [nar-oh-mahyn-did]
–adjective

1. having or showing a prejudiced mind, as persons or opinions; biased.

2. not receptive to new ideas; having a closed mind.

It's not just about letting other people express their ideas, it's about being receptive to them. What would be the point of anyone expressing their ideas to you if you've already determined that they're wrong?

Christopher, put your words into any non-christian's mouth and nobody would ever come to christianity.

"However, your asking me to say that those views (christianity) might be *right* (and calling me a bigot if I won't) is asking me to go far beyond tolerance. It is asking me to be inconsistent and disobedient as a (muslim, atheist, rationalist, evolutionist, mormon, pagan, satanist, etc.)."

In order for any non-christian to 'come to Christ', they would have to be willing to allow ideas other than their own at least the possibility of being right. They would have to admit that they might be wrong and that christianity might be right. Whenever you 'witness' to a non-christian, you are asking them to do something that you yourself are not willing to do; allow someone else's idea a chance to be right. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them, or to 'convert' to their belief, just to be open and fair and receptive to their idea. Allow their idea a chance at being something more than just plain 'defiant' and 'wrong'.

You're asking us non-christians to hold an attitude toward your beliefs and ideas that you're not willing to hold toward our's. Isn't that like...hypocrisy or something?

[99. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 3:25 PM on Jun 3:]

99

Kevin,

My hope or expectation for non-Christians is *not* that they will be "objective," when it comes to considering the claims of Christianity. According to Christianity's *own teachings,* as recorded in the Bible, that would be an utterly false hope/expectation.

The Bible teaches that *no* sinner is naturally objective, open, or willing to come to Christ. Romans 3 clearly says that no one seeks God. Therefore, my hope is not that you will be objective toward Christianity, or that I will be able to convince you, in and of myself, of the truth of Christianity.

My hope is that God will change your heart and open your eyes, because according to the Bible, as far as *your current attitude to God and the things of God,* you have a heart of stone and sin-blinded eyes (Ezekiel 36:26 speaks to this, as does Paul in Romans, chapters 1-3).

My prayer is that God will change your heart and open your eyes, because if the Bible's testimony about unbelievers is true, you aren't currently any more truly "open" to Christianity than I am "open" to the sin of anti-Christian heresy. My hope is in God's transforming power, not in your, or anyone's else's, "objectivity."

Your concept of tolerance puts postmodern ideas into the dictionary's definition. "Tolerance" of differing ideas means to *tolerate* those ideas, not to say that may actually be right. Saying that they may be right is not tolerance-- that is possible acceptance.

However, with you, I *did* go beyond mere tolerance, in actually listening to what you thought (listening does not, in and of itself, mean agreeing to an idea's possible validity-- that's another postmodern idea) and in responding with evidence and arguments, from within the Bible and outside of the Bible. That is much more than merely "tolerating" differing ideas-- it is actually engaging them.

Your idea of "tolerance" is that no one can believe that a certain worldview is definitely, absolutely true or right. This is not tolerance. It's postmodern relativism.

[100. Kevin said the following at 5:20 PM on Jun 3:]

100

LOL! Well, I guess if anyone wants to know anything about me, they can just ask Christopher or look in the Bible and find everything they need to know about my mind and 'heart'. Forget what I say, I'm just a sinful anti-christian heretic. Why would you ever listen to me? What could I ever possibly say that could be true, or even worth listening to? I pretty much only speak lies anyway. I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about. The Bible says I have a heart of stone and sin-blinded eyes. And since that Ezekiel guy said it, it must be true.

Thanks for tolerating me though. I'm glad my words fell on ears that could stand to hear them, but couldn't bear to consider them as anything more than false postmodern heresy.

Maybe someday, God will bless me with christianity too. Then maybe I can be a narrow-minded, hypocritical bigot who's right no matter what.