The Problem With Quotes
by Candice Watters on 04/29/2009 at 11:00 PM
In Monday's Q&A I quoted myself in an effort to quickly compare our human ideas about marriage to God's ideas. Today I received an email that reminded me that sometimes concision can lead to confusion. By pulling two paragraphs from my book in an effort to make a point, I lost the context those paragraphs normally occupy and caused some frustration.
David said he's upset because I implied that marriage isn't romantic, that sex isn't a primary purpose of marriage, that marriage is more crucible than anything else, and that I believe (in his words) that "God only doles out spouses to the few who know the combination of the lock on His goodness."
He ends his email saying,
David, I'm so sorry that what I wrote left you feeling that way. That was not my intention! On the contrary, I believe marriage is tremendously fulfilling, that married sex as God designed it is wonderfully enjoyable (and worth waiting for), and that when you marry well, you indeed get companionship, occasional romance, and a fairly good hedge against being lonely. But that's not primarily why God gave us marriage. His primary purpose was to bring glory to Himself. Marriage as designed (by Him) is a picture of Christ's relationship with His bride, the church. Though it fully involves a man and a woman, it's ultimately not about them.
Again, I think much of this confusion comes from the limitations of short pull quotes. That and the nature of answering one question, only to raise more. Monday's column was in answer to a question about how to channel your sex drive when you're single. If I had been answering David's question, which is a different question altogether, I would have used different pull quotes.
I may just do that.
1. Holly said the following at 7:52 AM on Apr 30:
I actually felt the same way when I was going through Marriage 101 at our church. There was so much emphasis on what to do when there was a crisis in a marriage or when you a fight that I wondered were there any good parts to marriage. I understand that your article is in response to the epidemic of divorce and over-expectations about marriage. But I think there's need to be an alternative response to the divorce epidemic in that we need to point out the good parts about marriage.
But I have also seen that there's so much emphasis on what to do in a marriage crisis that the blessings of marriage get overlooked.
2. Brian Ramsey said the following at 9:53 AM on Apr 30:
Rose-colored glasses.
I'm told to take them off as I prepare to get married this summer. I'm told about all of the hard things for which I need to prepare, and how my expectations won't be met on a slew of topics. I believe they are right, mostly.
However, I think there are many legitimate reasons to JOYFULLY move into marriage, as Candice said. I'm taking my rose-colored glasses off to be replaced with clear glasses, but I think there might actually be a tint of rose in the world of marriage.
3. J. said the following at 10:33 AM on Apr 30:
Candice, kudos to you for making a humble apology here.
However, I noticed (within the quote contained in your previous post) your comment about how God may deny marriage to some who have prayed for it because their expectations of marriage are unrealistic. Unless this too can be misunderstood because of the lack of context, with all due respect I think this is in dangerous territory. We can never fully understand God's actions this side of heaven. Besides, God seems to allow plenty of people who expect too much of marriage to get married anyway.
In addition, a lot of people who find themselves single longer than they want to be lament their state because their parents are still married to each other and have healthy relationships, and they want the same for their own lives. They know their parents' marriages aren't perfect, but they've gone through hard times and persevered. Their expectations are hardly unrealistic because marriage, even with all its imperfections, has been modeled well for them.
Candice, I'd appreciate any clarification you could provide on this point, too.
4. Keith said the following at 10:40 AM on Apr 30:
I think that churches and Christian organizations often do a poor job in educating singles about the realities of marriage.
I remember around four years ago my former pastor giving a sermon on the realities of marriage. He was saying he looked forward to marriage primarily for sexual reasons - He said "he struggled with purity issues" (whatever that means)and thought once he got married he would be having sex every night. He said he ended up being a bit surprised.
The ideal is for married couples to mentor singles so they get a realistic picture of what marriage is like. But way too many adults claim they are too busy to take the time to discipleship young singles...which is pretty sad in my opinion.
5. DEH said the following at 10:57 AM on Apr 30:
Before we got married, my husband and I got a lot of counsel on the difficult parts of marriage. We went into it expecting it to be really hard.
I was pleasantly surprised after the wedding to discover that, while there were definitely some rough spots, marriage on the whole was far more pleasant and (for lack of a better word) easier than I had anticipated.
Maybe my husband and I are just blessed. After nearly five years of marriage, however, I tend to think that our perspective is what makes the biggest difference. Knowing there's no way out makes it expedient to work out our differences and get back to being best friends again. Not holding onto grievances makes life much simpler. And more pleasant.
6. DannieA said the following at 11:05 AM on Apr 30:
I also don't think that God denies marriage to some based on unrealistic expectations...if that were the case...my parents should have been denied marriage and so should everyone that married before they were 20 or early 20s...
My parents have a strong marriage, but I think every marriage has it's wake-up call.
7. anon said the following at 11:21 AM on Apr 30:
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I don't care how many Bible verses you throw at me, either. I disagree that God designed marriage primarily to bring Glory to himself. "Men are that they might have joy." I know I'll get slammed for this, but I really don't care. It's a big reason why I'm no longer Evangelical.
8. mindlab said the following at 11:38 AM on Apr 30:
7. anon: "Men are that they might have joy." I know I'll get slammed for this, but I really don't care.
Couldn't quite help myself. . .
First, that's a quote from the Book of Mormon, clearly extra-Biblical.
Secondly, "from FROM Him and THROUGH Him and TO Him are all things, to Him be the glory. . ."; it's about God, not us. We are not the point.
Lastly, if God created us for the purpose of having joy, He failed rather dramatically. Any God worth His salt could, if our joy was the point, create a world with significantly more joy and less pain than this one. His glory is the point, and our joy is a byproduct of glorifying Him.
Hopefully you'll put down the kook-text and do a little more reading in the Bible. Cheers.
9. Karen said the following at 11:47 AM on Apr 30:
DEH, this has been my experience too. :^) So many books and counseling sessions--not to mention people--seem to make marriage out to be more a "living sacrifice" deal than anything else. Yes, marriage has its tough times, but it is SO enjoyable and wonderful to be able to be with your best friend!
10. BDB said the following at 12:08 PM on Apr 30:
This is an interesting observation.
I have noticed that I can summarize the sermons I've heard on marriage with three words: work, work, work.
From the pastoral perspective, I understand this. They can spend 50% of their time in counseling, and 80% of that is people strugging in relationships, whether marriage, kids, parents, etc. So, it makes sense that they would focus on teaching the body how to avoid the pitfalls that lead to divorce.
However, for a 20-something who is struggling to make their way in the world, the idea of piling on lots more work is unappealing. It definitely seems like the wise choice to focus on figuring out the career thing first, and delay pursuing marriage until after one has a secure career. This path has the added benefit of increasing income, which would (in theory) reduce future chance of divorce due to money issues. Seems logical to delay marriage, doesn't it?
Now, if young people were instead taught to pray about marriage and follow God's guidance, they might instead reach the conclusion that they ought to look specifically at careers that are compatible with family life. In turn, when they run into other people doing this, it makes the path to marriage much easier.
In my case, I was 28 before I first heard this concept from women I knew. Nurses, audiologists, optometrists, teachers, writers - all career fields that can be done full time before motherhood and part-time while raising children. Those who were planning this way when they were 18 are the ones who got married first.
In the absence of families providing this kind of mentoring, it seems like a place where the Church can help people think through how the pieces fit together.
11. carrie said the following at 12:15 PM on Apr 30:
I agree that too many couples represent the bad side of marriage. It's pushed me away from desiring that. Now I am around more couples representing the real Christian marriage of blessing. I'm able to hang out with them and also see that it is work. I don't need couples to "warn" me about the difficulties before I even have a potential mate. It's too negative and has me afraid of marriage. Be an example, a godly model of marriage. If someone single is boasting about how marriage will solve their problems or over-glorifying the good parts of marriage, than have a talk with them about the realities of a godly marriage so they not be deceived.
12. BDB said the following at 12:21 PM on Apr 30:
Karen (#9) wrote:
>>but it is SO enjoyable and wonderful to be able to be with your best friend! <<
Indeed! So, the best course of action is to be buddies for a few years and see if a best friendship develops! Look how wonderfully it worked for Candice and Steve!
My grandparents studied together for 4 years before they got married. Their 70th Anniversary is in June.
(I know, I know. Someone will follow up with a do as I say, not as I do comment after mine!)
13. Candice Watters said the following at 1:26 PM on Apr 30:
Great discussion so far. I'll try to get back to your question, J. If the kids take a long nap. ;) And just for clarification, BDB, Steve and I were friends for one year before we started dating. We then dated for 6 mos, and were engaged for 3 mos. From hello to I do in less than 2 years.
14. Tara said the following at 1:38 PM on Apr 30:
I am kind of relieved to hear that I'm not the only one who felt that marriage counselling and the advice given to singles focuses soley on the negative sides of marriage. I had already known that marriage was a big responsibility and wouldn't be one huge date so to be told I needed my Rose-coloured glasses removed made me terrified of my approaching marriage. If my bleak view was "rosey" then what was reality going to be?? Fortunately, my mom was a real blessing and reminded me that it's possible to still be happy and just as in love with your spouse after 26 years of marriage. She couldn't even recall a single fight she had with my father. Believe me, I grew up in their home so I knew fights did happen (though I never saw them yell or say hurtful things), but they were so quick to forgive that they forgot about their disagreements.
And, only being 4 months into my own marriage, I'm noticing the same trend with my husband. We deal with issues right away and are careful about how we present our own hurt feelings so as not to escalate the situation. Resolving things right away helps keep the peace and I find I forget about our fights. I have to think really hard to remember the fights we have had so far (and I'm a bit of a firecracker so they do happen).
Quotes do have a funny habit of seeming to hold a different meaning when taken out of context (that's why I've heard it said that the Bible can be used to prove anything) and I'm glad you explained yourself, Candace, because the quote sat funny with me. My issue was more with the line about marriage being a place for procreation. I've seen several non-Christian documentaries explaining away marriage as humans being animals who seek to mate for life for purely biological reasons such as human offspring taking longer to reach indepence than the other animals or that the human female wants to guarantee her offspring have the best genes so once she finds a suitable male she keeps him around. Blah. And I know Boundless doesn't advocate that. As much as I'm looking forward to being a mother, having a baby was hardly the reason I married my husband. I loved who he was and knew he would help me strive to get to know God better, that I could do the same for him and we just got along so well.
Marriage is a blast even though it has a huge learning curve.
15. BDB said the following at 1:57 PM on Apr 30:
And, to build on Candice (#13), those who are in school have a LOT more time available per week than those already in the work force. One year in grad school might result in far more hours per week together than one year while both are working in different places.
I definitely think it's wrong to take up a lot of time of someone who has already been ruled out for marriage. If it is still on the table for both of you - like my grandparents who spent 4 years studying together and not dating anyone else - it can set a good foundation. I've seen it be valuable in cases like Tara's, where people are already quite skeptical and cautious, so they want to move slowly. Particularly if unlike Tara, their parents are extremely negative about their failed marriages. It takes time to get used to the idea that it's possible to be successful where one's parents have failed.
16. Rachael said the following at 11:29 PM on Apr 30:
Nice humility, Candice, and I like that you say that the primary purpose marriage is to bring glory to God...my mom recently reminded me of the verse about not loving certain family members above God. (I just now Bible gatewayted it and found it to be Matt. 10:37, there could be other references as well). She didn't specifically tell me how it might fit to me personally, I think, but I can see...I think in common reality based on my thoughts, words, and actions, I tend to desire the love of my husband more than Christ.
So many things are easier said and thought than done...but the thoughts that ultimately God is the one to be served, and that marriage is a little symbolic (ideally) of the sacrifical love of God, are, like, really neat.
17. Bethany said the following at 10:34 AM on May 1:
I'm coming up on my 2nd wedding anniversary. Everyone told us how hard the first year would be, but we had a great time. The second year, I am told, is the year most divorces occur. But here we are, still happy.
We have our fights, but overall I just feel very very blessed. Far beyond what I deserve. Marriage is a gift.
But with all the forewarning about hard times, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop. Maybe when we have a child...? ;)
Several years ago, I confided to a friend how lonely I felt, and how I thought I would just be more lonely in the future. I said, "I know marriage doesn't mean you're never lonely..." and my friend interrupted, "well, a *good* marriage helps." And I was actually surprised, a bit taken aback by what I could expect out of marriage.
Sometimes we need to be told how great marriage can be.
18. Rachael said the following at 11:28 AM on May 1:
"Sometimes we need to be told how great marriage can be."
Maybe at times, to cultivate thankfulness. Too much of that, though, may cause undue expectations. Perhaps behind each small disappointment lies an expectation or frustrated hope, stated or unstated.
19. anon said the following at 10:53 AM on May 3:
Mindlab
I told you I didn't care how many Bible verses you threw at me. You just wasted your time with your insults. For your information, I believe that Jesus himself said the same thing when he said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." I had twenty years to try and read the Bible and pray away legitimate desires to be married and have a family. Didn't work. I don't believe a very large portion of what Evangelicals say anymore. Living as a childless, barren, old maid in the Evangelical world was hardly an "abundant" life. Everytime I look at my children, I am reminded of what the Evangelicals tried to cheat me out of. "Men are that they MIGHT have joy." It is not guaranteed, and the fact that there is suffering in this world has NOTHING to do with it. FYI, I am not Mormon, and I certainly don't believe very much of what Mormons believe. But neither do I think that the BofM is entirely a "kook" text. There are many verses I could point you toward that are supreme examples of accurate social commentary, but my post would not be published, because Boundless is not interested in printing truth, only propaganda that suits their agenda.
20. Jo said the following at 6:52 AM on May 4:
anon, 19
"I had twenty years to try and read the Bible and pray away legitimate desires to be married and have a family."
If you were made to feel that you should be praying away those desires, then you have good reason to be angry. That idea doesn't come from the Bible. Who knows where it does come from but you're right that it's total crap.
And you make a good point with the 'life abundantly' verse. I think Jesus was mainly talking about the inner 'life' that he gives us, regardless of our circumstances - but you're right that Christianity isn't supposed to be a long hard slog of self-denial and mediocrity. God does want us to have joy, He does want us to find beauty in the world and in our relationships, He does want to bless us with good things.
It's not an either/or - it's not a question of either being happy or serving God. Marriage is God's design, He created it to bring glory to Himself but also to bring pleasure to us. It is a good thing to desire and a good thing to pray for.
Anyone who tried to 'cheat you out of it' was wrong. Plain and simple.