Paying Too Much for an Education by Ted Slater on 04/02/2009 at 4:12 PM

As someone who's spent nearly 10 years studying at the university level, I've found the primary purposes of higher education to be:

1. job/career preparation
2. relationships, both professional and personal
3. "an education"

First, classes and coursework gave me the skills necessary to take on particular jobs, largely to provide for myself and, now that I'm married, my family.

Second, being in such an intense environment with peers and scholars has led to business prospects, inroads to certain job opportunities, and finding the woman I ended up marrying.

The third purpose I identified -- "an education" -- is a bit more ambiguous. I know many people, for instance, who got an education without ever setting foot in a college classroom. If, by "education," one means "knowledge that helps enrich life and explore opportunities," then such a thing really could be achieved by reading books. Though I've earned two master's degrees, for example, I've gained a good deal of my most meaningful and life-enriching "education" through church, through friendships, through reading, and through other media (radio, TV, the Internet). No tuition required.

If higher education, then, is primarily about preparing for a job/career (in order to earn a living, and facilitate some meaningful engagement with and contribution to society), and about long-term relationships (which may result in business leads, foot-in-the-employer's-door opportunities, and a spouse) ... then it follows that the educational choices you make should enable such things, and not inhibit such things.

Say you want to have a job as a high school teacher for a few years, be married, and then become a stay-at-home mother for 15 years. Maybe find a university that will help land you the job you want, find a good man to marry, and at a price that you can pay off within a few years. Maybe even go to community college for the first two years after high school.

Here's the thing: You don't need to go to Harvard to achieve such ends. You don't need to go $100k -- or even $50k -- in debt. You simply need to match your educational goals with the right higher education facility. If your goal is to land a job on Wall Street, you may need an Ivy League MBA. If you're gunning to become a manager at a local restaurant, a degree from a state university or Christian college is probably just fine.

* * *

The reason I'm bringing this up now is that I just read an article by a 23-year-old woman who's racked up $115,000 in student loans, the terms of which dictate that she has 12 years to pay it off ... and she's pursuing a career "in television." She's currently a production assistant with CNN.

And that leaves me heavy-hearted. Scripture is clear: "The borrower is slave of the lender." This young woman is obligated, for many years, to hand over her hard-earned dollars to someone else. She is not free to take a lower-paying job that is more personally rewarding, because she has to make her $1,200-per-month college loan payments -- for well over a decade, at least. Unless she marries a wealthy man, she is not free to become a stay-at-home-mother, or even spend a good amount of time with her children should she marry, because she has to make her $1,200-per-month college loan payments.

For the next decade or two -- from now until she's in her mid-30s, or even 40s -- this woman is shackled to the machine for at least nine hours per day, working for someone else and then relinquishing much of her earnings to someone else.

And my heart goes out to her.

She admits in her article that she was "uneducated" about student loans. The thing is, too many young adults are uneducated about such things -- not just about the terms of the loans, but even about where and how that money should best be spent.

Here's her conclusion:

I chose to go to a private school and I chose to work in a field where the starting salaries are low. Does that mean that I chose to live a life of struggle, wondering how I am going to pay my rent, afford the basics of living and still stay in my chosen career field ... all while putting up with high interest rates and an amount of debt that brings me to tears?

My heartbroken, but truthful response: Yes. That is what you chose.

May we learn from this woman's tragic mistakes to make decisions now, with good counsel from mentors, family and friends, that will help us avoid the decades-long financial enslavement that she, and too many of her peers, are suffering.

Paying Too Much for an Education by Ted Slater on 04/02/2009 at 4:12 PM

As someone who's spent nearly 10 years studying at the university level, I've found the primary purposes of higher education to be:

1. job/career preparation
2. relationships, both professional and personal
3. "an education"

First, classes and coursework gave me the skills necessary to take on particular jobs, largely to provide for myself and, now that I'm married, my family.

Second, being in such an intense environment with peers and scholars has led to business prospects, inroads to certain job opportunities, and finding the woman I ended up marrying.

The third purpose I identified -- "an education" -- is a bit more ambiguous. I know many people, for instance, who got an education without ever setting foot in a college classroom. If, by "education," one means "knowledge that helps enrich life and explore opportunities," then such a thing really could be achieved by reading books. Though I've earned two master's degrees, for example, I've gained a good deal of my most meaningful and life-enriching "education" through church, through friendships, through reading, and through other media (radio, TV, the Internet). No tuition required.

If higher education, then, is primarily about preparing for a job/career (in order to earn a living, and facilitate some meaningful engagement with and contribution to society), and about long-term relationships (which may result in business leads, foot-in-the-employer's-door opportunities, and a spouse) ... then it follows that the educational choices you make should enable such things, and not inhibit such things.

Say you want to have a job as a high school teacher for a few years, be married, and then become a stay-at-home mother for 15 years. Maybe find a university that will help land you the job you want, find a good man to marry, and at a price that you can pay off within a few years. Maybe even go to community college for the first two years after high school.

Here's the thing: You don't need to go to Harvard to achieve such ends. You don't need to go $100k -- or even $50k -- in debt. You simply need to match your educational goals with the right higher education facility. If your goal is to land a job on Wall Street, you may need an Ivy League MBA. If you're gunning to become a manager at a local restaurant, a degree from a state university or Christian college is probably just fine.

* * *

The reason I'm bringing this up now is that I just read an article by a 23-year-old woman who's racked up $115,000 in student loans, the terms of which dictate that she has 12 years to pay it off ... and she's pursuing a career "in television." She's currently a production assistant with CNN.

And that leaves me heavy-hearted. Scripture is clear: "The borrower is slave of the lender." This young woman is obligated, for many years, to hand over her hard-earned dollars to someone else. She is not free to take a lower-paying job that is more personally rewarding, because she has to make her $1,200-per-month college loan payments -- for well over a decade, at least. Unless she marries a wealthy man, she is not free to become a stay-at-home-mother, or even spend a good amount of time with her children should she marry, because she has to make her $1,200-per-month college loan payments.

For the next decade or two -- from now until she's in her mid-30s, or even 40s -- this woman is shackled to the machine for at least nine hours per day, working for someone else and then relinquishing much of her earnings to someone else.

And my heart goes out to her.

She admits in her article that she was "uneducated" about student loans. The thing is, too many young adults are uneducated about such things -- not just about the terms of the loans, but even about where and how that money should best be spent.

Here's her conclusion:

I chose to go to a private school and I chose to work in a field where the starting salaries are low. Does that mean that I chose to live a life of struggle, wondering how I am going to pay my rent, afford the basics of living and still stay in my chosen career field ... all while putting up with high interest rates and an amount of debt that brings me to tears?

My heartbroken, but truthful response: Yes. That is what you chose.

May we learn from this woman's tragic mistakes to make decisions now, with good counsel from mentors, family and friends, that will help us avoid the decades-long financial enslavement that she, and too many of her peers, are suffering.

Comments

[1. Ted Slater said the following at 4:22 PM on Apr 2:]

1

I should add that it took me 12 years to move from high school graduation to grad school graduation, that I worked full-time during some of those years, and part-time during other years, that I applied for and received scholarships, that my undergrad was Northern Michigan University (a state college close to home), and lived *very* frugally (being homeless during one stretch of time). Consequently, I had my student loans paid off within a couple of years.

And look where I am now! :-)

[2. Sarah said the following at 4:40 PM on Apr 2:]

2

I couldn't agree more. In January, I was pursuing a master's degree at a private college. I was almost half way through the program when I realized I had to stop.
My dream is to be a wife and mother someday. The short-term economic gains I would get with additional education did not equal the additional student loan debt I would incur. It was a hard decision, but it came with so much peace.
It was also sobering to realize exactly why I was pursing higher education - my motivation was pride. I wanted to have the accomplishment of earning an advanced degree. I wanted to tell people the fancy name of the institution I was attending. I wanted to spend my free time "bettering myself." It was all about me.
So now, I will continue my "education" by learning from the godly women at my church who die to self every day to serve the Lord and their families. I will to use my time in the workforce to pay off undergrad student debt so that I won't cause a burden on my future husband when we start a family.

[3. Keith said the following at 5:04 PM on Apr 2:]

3

I remember that in my first year after high school I went to a Bible college, and at that school they had a policy against student loans. In fact, they would refuse entry to anyone living off student loans. You had to earn and save your way to go there. That meant that some of the students there were a bit older than at other schools, but at least they were gonna graduate debt free.

It is shocking how much time and money some people waste on education. Go to the cheapest college you can, spend your first two years at a community college where you can transfer, get some job experience, and stay out of debt.

[4. Thomas said the following at 5:41 PM on Apr 2:]

4

This was a pretty fair article, one thing I don't like about some of these education related ones is that they give blanket advice, when it really depends on each person's situation and their calling. I don't like blanket advice such as "go to the cheapest college you can" because that does not work for all paths and callings.

Like Ted said, if your goals are to work on Wall Street, then you'll probably need to go to top colleges all the way through. And conversely, if you have more modest goals, then going to a cheaper local state school might be a wise decision.

But I think, especially for guys who are called to provide for their families, going into certain career paths well justifies taking on some debt. Going to a top college for engineering, science, law, or business will pay back dividends well over the cost, whereas going to a lower tier school for those areas can really hurt your career options. Someone graduating from MIT for example will have global options, someone graduating from Local State will have extremely local visibility. If God's given you the intellect, talent, abilities, and calling for such an endevour, then I think it would be wise to pursue these opportunities.

Note, you can go to a top public school, such as an Univ of Cali, Univ of V, U of Mich, U of Wash, etc. But the point is, for these career paths, going to a top school is WELL worth it. And that this blanket advice of 'go to the cheapest school you can' is not at all good advice for people with these callings and abilities and talent.

[5. Kellie said the following at 6:22 PM on Apr 2:]

5

My student loans are primarily from my first two years, during which I attended a Christian college. I then transferred to a state university (my entire time at the state university cost less than a semester of the Christian college). In retrospect, I should have gone to the state university in the first place (where, ironically enough, I had a full scholarship, which I turned down).

But I was 18 years old, thinking more about getting out of the house then how to save money. (although thankfully I don't pay too much for my student loans....I can't imagine paying $1,200 a month!!!)

[6. BDB said the following at 6:26 PM on Apr 2:]

6

As someone who spent more than $100,000 on education, let me share with you what I've learned:

1) Pray about where you go to school, AND how to pay for it. I asked God to provide for my undergraduate education, and he came through - albeit at a school I never would have considered.

2) I should have prayed about graduate school loans. I assumed that because I was working full time, that was how God was providing. I should have prayed about it and applied for more scholarships and fellowships. I'm sure I could have gotten through school with less in loans had I paid more attention.

3) Having taken classes at Bible colleges, public colleges, mid-level private and expensive private, I definitely found that I got what I paid for. A "B" at the $1000-a-unit private graduate school took vastly more work than an "A" at the Bible colleges. Those professors pushed me much, much harder.

4) One advantage of private schools is that typically you have smaller class sizes. I audited two classes in grad school with less than 5 students. It cost $500 to audit. The classes were so small that the professors made me do the in-class presentations like everyone else - they didn't let me just sit there and listen to everyone else. I wasn't required to write the paper or take the final. And frankly, I learned a ton from auditing classes. I'd never have enough money to take classes from all the Christian professors at my school. But having access to them really helped me form a Christian worldview fully able to grapple with the hardest economic questions of the day.

My friends who went to state schools took 5-6 years to graduate, as did those who went to community college. My private college basically structures it to force people to finish in 4 years, even with a teaching credential. There was a lot of peer pressure to finish on time. It has been my observation that lots of people at community college are there because they don't know what to do, so they spend too much time partying and end up dropping out or taking forever to finish. Those who work for a few years, then attend a state community or 4-year college are a LOT more focused and waste less time partying. They also have a better idea who they are ready to work.

4) Avoid debt, especially if your goal is to be a mom. Better to go to an easier school that gives you a full scholarship and get excellent grades. You can always go to graduate school. In fact, I think being a stay-at-home mom of young children is a GREAT time to go to grad school: it provides some adult conversation without the intellectual distractions of work, and you can spend 5 years going to grad school and finish about the time your kids are starting school.

5) If you must take out loans, first study the starting salaries in your industry, AND check job boards to find out where they are located. The high salaries listed for top MBA and Law programs are for jobs in big cities with a very high cost of living. I was shocked when I realized a $50,000 income in the town I live in was equivalent to $100,000 in San Francisco, where all the Internet jobs were at the time.

6) One of the biggest advantages to an undergraduate education is learning how to put together a plan, such as a graduation plan. Project management at work, really any project, requires pulling together all the pieces. You can use these skills regardless of whether or not you work for pay in the field of your major.

7) Remember that accounting and engineering fields are strongly disposed towards requiring an undergraduate degree in the field. Many people cannot fathom how a liberal arts major ends up working in finance. If you do go back and get an MBA, it's worth doing the "finance" concentration so you can explain that to future employers who don't understand a political science degree, for example.

[7. J. said the following at 6:32 PM on Apr 2:]

7

I have a lot of compassion for Samantha Hillstrom, the blogger Ted linked to. I agree she made bad choices, but I also think it's shameful that her alma mater, in concert with her lender, allowed her to get into such a terrible situation in the first place.

A university that helps women when it comes to finding husbands? Ted, if you know of any and are willing to share, I'm sure many young female Boundless readers would be very grateful to you. :-) Sadly, women outnumber men at many Christian colleges by 2-to-1, so a lot of these women fall short of their goal of meeting husbands in college (assuming it is a goal of theirs). And the men in the large Christian group at my secular university were notorious for *not* asking any of the women out. This wasn't unique to my university; it was a phenomenon that was joked about at the group's regional and national conferences, too. The women weren't blameless, of course. A big problem with many Christian groups is that their very nature encourages the buddy system (what Suzanne Hadley has written about) between the sexes.

[8. Simon from Texas said the following at 6:41 PM on Apr 2:]

8

I think part of the problem with our culture is that it does not follow Jesus' advice to "count the costs." College and "doing what you want to do" are promoted as must-haves and the financial burden is thrown out the window. I am glad Boundless is bringing this issue to light.

[9. Brad said the following at 7:17 PM on Apr 2:]

9

I'll admit, I didn't have much wise counsel in my life, and if I did, I certainly didn't listen to it when I was in college. I think too many college students think the way that I thought in college, with the presumption that "God will provide" a decent paying job when I graduate from college, so I don't have to worry about my student loan debt. Well, here am I now with $38,000 in student loan debt (4 years at a State university, 1 year at a private Christian graduate school), working a low wage job where 25% of my income goes toward my loan, in hopes of paying it off in about 12 years. I can barely provide for myself right now (if I didn't live at home, I'd be living on pretty meager foodstuffs) let alone a family right now.

If your family cannot afford to pay your way, I strongly recommend either military service or working throughout college, even if it means taking classes part-time. There are few things more irresponsible than taking on a major debt before you really have any idea how you are going to pay it off.

[10. mar said the following at 7:17 PM on Apr 2:]

10

I'd encourage people to consider this even with the cost of attending a Christian university, as Ted mentioned. Public schools will often be MUCH cheaper, and there actually are Christians there, too! Most campuses have Christian ministries where you can still be in community and growing with other Christians while also building friendships with many non-Christians through your classes and living situations. I attended a public university, and I even know several people who met their spouses while there! ;) A lot of the friends I have who attended Christian universities graduated owing several thousand dollars in debt... which can put you in a difficult place for actually going into ministry. By attending a public school, you can get experience doing ministry on a daily basis (leading Bible studies, sharing Christ with people who don't know him, befriending people from other cultures who've never met a Christian) and perhaps graduate with less debt!

[11. Jesse said the following at 7:21 PM on Apr 2:]

11

I saw that article a few days ago and was also moved, but not in exactly the same way. I do feel sorry for her, as she was clearly stuck making huge decisions that will affect the rest of her life without the maturity she needed. But the woman's utter lack of accountability is sickening. We all make poor decisions and have to come to grips with the less-than-ideal situations they result in. That's called LIFE.

[12. P&P said the following at 8:08 PM on Apr 2:]

12

I also think that a big part of education is to learn critical thinking. Anyone can read an article, surf a web site or watch a television show and derive a certain set of facts, but learning how to determine the validity (and perhaps even the veracity) is the important part.

I agree that it's important to watch the bottom line, but don't let it discourage you from an education.

[13. Mark N said the following at 8:26 PM on Apr 2:]

13

Good post!

I think its great for students to be thinking about these things:

A couple complementary points:

First of all, I've noticed a very casual attitude toward debt, especially among us younger folks. Maybe its all those years of a culture of easy credit? But this is deadly. I assure you, it will catch up to you eventually.

I can't help but apply Paul's words "..I will not be enslaved by anything" to this.
Debt may often be unavoidable (esp. with the costs of tuition nowadays), but avoid it like the plague. Even if you have to give up a bunch of other things in your life, AVOID DEBT.

Second, step back and try to avoid those cliched assumptions about education and careers. They are usually keyed to where the economy, job market, and academia were at 10 or 20 years ago anyways. Higher education is good, but the more you use it like snake oil on some sort of "out of the box plan", the more you will be left disappointed, in debt, and possibly unemployable. Get good advisors, and don't assume that everything that is treated as "common knowledge" is necessarily good in your case.

And, while it is true that continuing your education later on in life will be more difficult, its probably preferable than indefinitely extending your pre-work period and racking up further debt. You may have less time later in life, but further education can be a much more pleasurable and successful venture once you've had a few years to work, get your finances in order, and generally mature a bit. If you push it into the future it may never happen, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing if you end up having fulfilling life with a good career, now is it?

Just my two cents.. (just so its clear, I'm not knocking pursuing further education, I am doing further studies, on a part time basis, right now. And I'm enjoying it quite a bit more than I would if I was doing it earlier in my life.)

[14. Leah said the following at 8:40 PM on Apr 2:]

14

It's times like these I am SO greatful for the Australian system.

For those who have not read my explanation in previous posts regarding higher education, I'll reiterate.

In Australia, we have a system called HECS-Help. It stands for Higher Education Contribution Scheme, and it's only applicable for Australian citizens (so if you are an exchange student, you don't have the benefit of it). Firstly, it means the government gives enormous subsidies for us to study. I've seen what foreign students pay to study at my university, and it's a LOT more than what I had to pay. Secondly, I don't have to pay any of it up front. If I do, I get a 20% discount, but if I don't, it simply goes onto my HECS-Help debt.

You are required to start paying off your HECS-Help debt when you graduate and get a job earning at least $35,000 a year. Your repayments automatically get deducted from your pay along with your tax, so you hardly even notice. You have an unlimited amount of time to pay it back. Well, your lifespan. And if, for some reason, you never fully pay it off, the debt dies when you die.

But the best bit, you should have picked up a moment ago- if you never earn over $35,000 a year, you are never required to pay back your debt. You can voluntarily if you desire, but you're not required to. So for women, they can plausibly do a degree and then go on to become stay at home mothers and never have to pay their HECS-Help debts back. It doesn't matter how much their husbands earn.

It helps that your average student who puts ALL his tuition fees onto HECS-Help will finish an average 3-year degree with an average HECS-Help debt of between $20,000 and $40,000, depending on the university and the degree. Not a lot, compared to our US counterparts.

This is one debt that you are not "tied" to. We're amazingly lucky in Australia. (Of course some will say we are paying for it in our taxes, but we'll always be paying those taxes whether we study or not!)

[15. Myr said the following at 11:00 PM on Apr 2:]

15

Unlike most of the people I have known, I was and am determined to avoid the burden and shackles of debt as much as possible. I only took student loans the last two years of undergrad because my younger brother was starting school then, and I did not want my parents to try to help us both out at the same time, since none of us are exceptionally wealthy. I got mine paid off roughly within a year of graduation and paid less than ten dollars of interest on my loans due to prepayments made during the eight month grace period. I now work full time at the same university I graduated from. I don't make a lot of money, but since I work for the university, I get a discount on classes, and my plan now is to take a few classes on the side to hopefully allow me to get into a graduate program at some point in the future.

My budget philosophy goes something like this: if I earn X dollars after taxes and tithe, then the amount I can spend is either less than or equal to X. I do not use credit cards or buy things on credit. If I want something, I save the money for it. Generally, all things that I can purchase fall into one of three categories; survival, not being miserable, and extravagance. I tend to avoid extravagance, if possible, and focus primarily on the first two. I don't earn much now, but I am willing to live with that, despite being told repeatedly by a coworker that most wouldn't want to live like I do. This makes me think of a quote the Architect at the end of the last Matrix movie: "There are levels of survival which we are willing to accept."

[16. sarah elizabeth said the following at 11:15 PM on Apr 2:]

16

I definitely agree that considering money is important in deciding where to go to college. To get yourself forever in debt is not a good idea. However, I think that depending on the person and situation, the benefits of a private, christian school have not been accurately represented. if you go to a small school, you are much more likely to interact with faculty and staff members who are truly interested in investing in your life. You will have an opportunity to be known. Often, there are many leadership positions that are relatively easily accesible in a small school...and staff members who will highly encourage you to apply for them! This of course, can happen at a larger school as well, but I would venture to say your ability to really get to know that staff is much more limited. I went to a small school and was recommended by my RA to apply to become an RA, from there I spent 3 years in college learning VALUABLE leadership skills through residence life. AS a freshman, I was very quiet. I know that had I gone to a large state school, then I would have disappeared into the crowd and never sought out a leadership position on my own. It wook leaders in the school to encourage me to continue applying to positions.
Honestly, I would have to add holistic growth as a person as a readon to go to college. There are many valuable lessons I learned in my small school, that I would not have learned elsewhere.

[17. DEH said the following at 11:58 PM on Apr 2:]

17

#7 J.~
I believe that Bible colleges are more likely than Christian colleges to have a more equal male/female ratio of students. The Bible college I attended was split about 50/50. I'm guessing it's because they attract a lot of aspiring pastors, who tend more often to be male.

BTW, one of my professors said in class one time that he wished all students would leave the school married. :)

[18. Jorden said the following at 12:17 AM on Apr 3:]

18

Yeah I agree Ted, I was trying to get into a local college that lets you work off your debt while your there and you graduate debt free, but unfortunately my dad makes just a smidgen too much and they put me on the waiting list. Because they only accept a few hundred students per semester. And with a program like that they get thousands of applications.

So right now my current plans are going to a local community college for the first two years and then maybe go to a local Christian University for the last two years. But the local Christian college will still be $44,000 without scholarships or other financial aid those two years. I'm guessing after financial aid though it will be closer to $30,000. Still not a fun number, but a little more reasonable.

[19. Bek said the following at 3:22 AM on Apr 3:]

19

A combination of my parents' generosity, working a few weekends during term time and a managable amount during vactions, living at home for 2 years and studying on a funded programme in Spain for 1 year (degrees are 3 years in the UK) means that I will graduate debt free. I live almost 2 hours from the university I attend. The commute is worth it.

[20. Louise from Chicago said the following at 6:36 AM on Apr 3:]

20

I do not intend to criticize anyone's life choices, but I simply will never understand anyone taking out expensive loans for a graduate degree when his/her ultimate goal is to spend several years as a stay-at-home parent!

A bachelor's degree, yes, but why on earth would anyone want to put themselves into such a large amount of debt under these circumstances?

But...it's not the first time someone didn't understand something, and it definitely won't be the last!

[21. bb said the following at 7:05 AM on Apr 3:]

21

I completely disagree. God gave me a brain. I wanted to use that brain to the best of it's ability. For me, that meant a prestigious overseas university, and a graduate degree in Politics. The level of debate, thought, and challenge that I experienced amongst my peers was BEYOND extraordinary.

Am I in debt? Yes. Did my high-quality degree allow myself and my peers to find jobs which are equally well-paid? Absolutely. My debt will be paid down within 5 years of graduation, my degree, will last forever.

It matters not if I decide to stay-at-home once I have children, I honoured a gift God has given me, I have used it for His Glory, and my debt does not diminish either of those Kingdom achievements.

[22. Stephanie said the following at 8:17 AM on Apr 3:]

22

I went to a private university and I didn't have any debt because my mom paid for it (my dad had died before high school graduation). Then, I went to an Ivy League law school where I racked up over $100,000 in debt. For awhile, I definitely felt shackled due to my student loans, which are now paid off, even though I am now in my mid-thirties.

However, there are positives too. I had career options that I never would have had, especially as a minority, if I didn't go to an Ivy League school. I have lived in cities where I had great jobs I would never have received if my degree was from my local private university.

I did lament what I thought was the lost opportunity to get married and have kids when I met someone in my 20s who didn't want to deal with my loans. But now I am with someone who I may marry, who is in his late 30s. If we end up getting married, I know that I will have alot of options, even if I become a stay at home mom, because of the degree. Even now, when I meet people at events and they ask me where I went to law school, as soon as I answer, their ears perk up and they immediately offer opportunities that they wouldn't have offered otherwise, and I got my degree 13 years ago! I also won't wonder what it's like to have a career if I get married and stay home with my kids -- been there done that - and God forbid, if my husband dies or leaves me, I have a better chance of being able to support my kids and make a decent income because of my resume.

The point is - there is a cost - a high cost to an expensive education - and this article does well to tell us to count the cost. But I don't think it means that a cheap school is always the answer for everyone. You really have to pray and decide what options you want to have in life, and then deal with the consequences of your choice.

[23. obewan said the following at 8:20 AM on Apr 3:]

23

What people use student loans for as a large impact on the debt result.

When I went to college, there were several people who paid their tuition with loans and then went out and spent their cash on new stereo's worth 25% of a full years school expenses. One guy actually went out and bought a new Mustang even!

[24. Jo said the following at 9:19 AM on Apr 3:]

24

Leah #14 -

The Aussie system sounds quite similar to the UK system (or at least, what the UK system was when I did my BA). I only took out a year of student loans anyway because I stayed at home and worked while studying.

Post-grad degrees don't usually qualify for student loans though - and yet the cost seems way below what it is in the US, from the comments here. My MA is costing £7000. That's tuition fees, not counting living costs etc - but still, I don't really understand how American students can end up with $100,000 of debt... is that seriously how much it costs? It seems crazy! Maybe the government subsidises our university education more than I realised. :/

[25. Darren said the following at 9:42 AM on Apr 3:]

25

Great Post Ted

I wish that someone had shared this with me fifteen years ago. Too often, even Christians worship on the altar of advanced degrees. Thinking that our value as a human being is somehow determined by the name of the university on our advanced degree. As God's children, the Apostle Paul had the right word for it, "Rubbish." Simply put, an advanced degree is not worth it, if it slides you into a position of having to pay off a huge debt for twenty years. Some people may read this and say, "Duh, no kidding." But, let me just say, that its easy to get sucked in. Ultimately, the debt you carry from that advanced degree will have a greater influence on your life than anything or anyone else. This may sound tremendously unspiritual, but it is unfortunately true.

[26. Rebecca Allen said the following at 9:47 AM on Apr 3:]

26

I am in so much debt and it is only my first year. I feel so trapped already just thinking about the debt I am incruing makes me nervous. I am constantly praying that God would provide but it seems He is doing so through loans. I made the choice to attend a private Christian college, one where I felt led by the Lord, now I am wondering if it was the right choice. I can only see myself going further into debt but I have this hope that I will get some high paying job that will enable me to pay it back quickly. Please pray for me, that the Lord's will would be made clear to me and/or that He would provide. Thank you for your post!

[27. Adam said the following at 9:53 AM on Apr 3:]

27

Hey Everyone!

One thing I never hear talked about in this discussion is the role of inflation. For instance, I remember parousing a little shop one time, and they had these books which reviewed the past years of American history. Incedentially, they had a book on the year I was born, 1981. In 1981, a year at Harvard was $6,000.00 a year. Now, granted, the average pay may not have been as much as it is today, but still, one would have to argue that people made only 1/8 of what they made today, meaning that, back then minimum wage would have been just over a dollar an hour. That doesn't make any sense.

Part of it is also that universities charge prices for things they really don't need. I remember that I managed to get out of undergrad in pretty good shape, but, my last year, the school decided to build, not only a new dorm [which they needed], but also a new sports complex [which they did not need]. The tuition went up because they needed more money to pay for the sports complex.

To be fair, yes, we do need to watch the debt, and try to keep it at least under $100,000, but I also think we need to address the fact that universities simply do not think about how their decisions effect the costs of their tuition, and how the costs of their tuition, in turn, are effecting the students.

God Bless,
Adam

[28. IMO said the following at 10:02 AM on Apr 3:]

28

#26
Something I learned from my pastor
is that God's will is not about which college to go to or which job to take. Those decisions come from making wise and biblically sound decisions. That's the gist of it. I could go into more depth but that's not the point of my comment to you.
Would you consider going to a good (or decent) community college( the one I went to is highly reputable in the country) for a period of time? You just started going to this private school. It's not like you are in your last semester of school.
I don't know why you felt 'lead' by God or why you think it's God's will for you to be in this private school. Those are questions I can't answer. But I do urge you to pray and seek guidance and to reconsider going to this private Christian school.

[29. Janine said the following at 10:08 AM on Apr 3:]

29

Ted,

I agree completely with your post and feel for that poor young woman. I think that education has become sorely overpriced in the United States. I recently looked into the cost of an undergraduate degree at a prestigious university in DC where students pay around $50,000 per academic year to attend. This amounts to a BA or BS that costs around $200,000. Things like this just shouldn't be. At my state university, I'll be graduating with about $15,000 in debt, a load that while large in my eyes, I feel is alot more reasonable.

[30. Ted Slater said the following at 10:08 AM on Apr 3:]

30

Rebecca Allen (#26) -- I used to live in a small apartment very close to Houston Baptist University when I was in my late teens; my roommate actually earned a degree from HBU. I was working 50 hours per week assistant managing a Burger King on Westheimer at the time....

HBU is a fine school. That said, there are other, less expensive options. My time at NMU, an inexpensive university near home in the UP of Michigan, was great -- especially being involved with InterVarsity, Campus Crusade, Baptist Student Union, and another small campus ministry. I earned quite a reputation as an editor and columnist with the student newspaper....

[31. Alison said the following at 10:23 AM on Apr 3:]

31

If God has given you the financial means to attend a private school, by all means go! If you have a gifted mind and a high IQ an expensive, but competitive school is a good choice for you. But, if you are an average student, as most of us are. You're not planning to be one of the top leaders of the world, consider a state education. My sister and I, both Christians, have great jobs and little debt. We both work with people who have much more expensive degrees. My parents were thankfully able to help us with our state tuition ( about$9,000 a yr). #10 was correct. There are Christians at public schools. I've also seen how debt can put stress on the early years of marriage.

[32. Victoria said the following at 10:27 AM on Apr 3:]

32

What a great post, I wish someone had shared this with me years ago. Luckily, my family was poor so I received substantial aid from my $50K-a-year private college, and graduated with only $7K in loans. However, my boyfriend-at-the-time was enrolled in a 5-year program, and we wanted to get married, so we did as soon as I graduated and he had one year to go still. He immediately lost his financial aid, and we ended up taking out a loan for the full amount of the tuition for his last year, roughly $40K. So combined, we had just under $50K of student loans, thank God it wasn't more. At the time it didn't seem like we had any choice, and even now looking back, I'm not sure what we would've done differently. I don't regret getting married young, even though it meant taking on so much debt. We both eventually got really good jobs and have paid off the student debt this month, praise the Lord! I think it all comes down to what your educational goals are, as Ted stated. If you want to major in art history or music, you really can't expect a great starting salary, so maybe reconsider that pricey university! Ultimately, you have no idea where life will take you, and the more debt you have, the less options you have.

[33. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:34 AM on Apr 3:]

33

Although I tend to agree that people should consider the costs vs. utility of the degree they get (including where they get it from), rising college costs is a legitimate issue that affects even the frugal. Consider that college costs have more than outpaced inflation for many years now. In some years, more than double. Even in-state tuitions at some public Universities are no longer considered cheap.

The main problem is a combination of "the college mandate" and the fact colleges tend to raise tuition much more than cutting costs.

Because many of our middle class jobs for the most part require a Bachelors degree, you will not see many balking at college. And other than college, in today's economy there are only really three main avenues towards a middle class wage: Vocational/Trade work such as plumbing, working for the Government, and Military service (which essentially is the same as #2).

Because demand will always be there, there is little incentive for colleges to keep costs low. And when budget issues do crop up in a school, it's much easier to just raise the tuition than it is to make hard cutbacks. Those currently attending will probably not drop out simply because of a cost increase, and those aspiring to go will still attend because loans tend to be out of sight, out of mind.

There is no easy solution because A) demand will always exceed supply B) schools can raise "taxes" (i.e. tuition) much easier than the government can (imagine if the government raised taxes each year in proportion to inflation), and C) student loans will always cover this cost.

One possibility would be to insist that a certain amount of the tuition either be paid for in cash or via school grant, eliminating the "loan only" mentality. That would encourage schools to either hand out more grants, or more likely make their tuition more reasonable to the average consumer. Unfortunately, this can be very unpopular politically (you'll hear horror stories about how Johnny couldn't go to college because he couldn't scape up $5,000).

Another equally unpopular but effective solution would be to demphasize "need-based" financial aid and replace it with "merit based". Some experts believe that although the concept of need-based financial aid had good intentions, it actually aggravated the problem of higher college costs rather than solve it.

In today's environment though, I believe that if you don't want to be burdened with a lot of debt other than scholarships the best way to pay for college is through the military (GI Bill, ROTC, Service Academy, etc). It's certainly not for everyone and yes, you do have to sacrifice a few years of your life for Uncle Sam. But would you rather be "shackled" for 12 years, or just 4?

[34. Ted Slater said the following at 10:43 AM on Apr 3:]

34

Alison (#31) -- I agree with you that most of us can benefit sufficiently from lower-priced schools.

I have to challenge, though, one thing you said: "If you have a gifted mind and a high IQ an expensive, but competitive school is a good choice for you."

I disagree. To be frank with you, like a good number of those who comment on The Line, I have "a gifted mind and a high IQ." I earned straight A's during my four years of grad school, earning two master's degrees and producing a pretty sweet master's thesis. One of my professors labeled me an "overachiever."

One of my favorite memories from high school was when I used an antique slide rule during my Physics final; though everyone else around me used calculators, I still earned the highest grade in the class. Yeah, I was pretty cocky. Earlier that year, I earned the highest score in my entire school on an annual state math test.

I mention these things not to brag about myself, but to show that there's more to educational choices than correlating high IQ with a high-priced university. More important is determining ahead of time what your goals are, and then finding the appropriate educational system to achieve those goals.

For me, attending a less expensive state university in undergrad was the best choice for me, then going on to a *relatively* inexpensive Christian graduate university. My educational choices have kept me from being burdened by a lot of debt, and have enabled me to have the wonderful job I currently hold.

Jesus, I think, provides some helpful insights regarding such expensive ventures as higher education: "For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, This man began to build and was not able to finish" (Luke 14:28-30).

Indeed, may we count the cost before signing off on that student loan. Nothing wrong with using some practical financial wisdom rather than relying *solely* on where we *feel* the Lord is directing us.

[35. Ashley said the following at 11:04 AM on Apr 3:]

35

Thank you for the article. I am graduating college in two months and was considering either another four years of grad school, which would put me at least $40,000 in debt, or two more years at a different university, which would result in a less advanced degree, but would cost $11,000. Given my desire to be a wife and mother someday, I think the second one is better for me, even though I did think the first program would give me more money and a "shinier" degree and job title.

[36. DannieA said the following at 11:39 AM on Apr 3:]

36

My parents raised me the best way they knew how and that was in a bubble. They sacrificed of themselves to put me in Christian Education K-12 grade because our particular denomination believes in that.
That being said, I probably was very naive when I was 18 and although I racked up some debt going to Christian Universities including Grad School....I've paid 80% of it off, and looking back going to a Christian University instead of Community/state school was for the best. I had to still learn about the "real world" and if gone to that kind of an atmosphere, I would not have survived early on.

I think the best advice for education is to be good parents and educate your children about the world, therefore, when they make decisions for college, they can make good financial decisions not based on what atmosphere they need based on naivetee.

also commentor #20 Louise;

well let's say you're like me and have aspirations to be a speech therapist...I live in CA, you cannot work as a speech therapist without a graduate degree so stopping at a bachelor's would be not smart. The upside is that if you still want to stay with your kids while they are young, you can either a) work at schools so your work schedule coincides with their school schedule as they grow older and b) you could use your license to run private clients at your home.

[37. Rachael said the following at 11:47 AM on Apr 3:]

37

I think there could have been neat benefits had I decided to go the out of state college I was considering, but, community college and in-state colleges worked for me.

It is nice I didn't have to deal with college debt.

[38. farmer Tom said the following at 12:00 PM on Apr 3:]

38

Alison said,

"If you have a gifted mind and a high IQ an expensive, but competitive school is a good choice for you. But, if you are an average student, as most of us are. You're not planning to be one of the top leaders of the world, consider a state education."

Like Ted I have to disagree with you as well, but for different reasons.

Your statement assumes that someone with a gifted mind and high IQ will benefit from college education. Yet some of the richest and most powerful men in the world did not have or failed to finish a college education. See Bill Gates.

Many of the current economic and social ills confronting this nation today are the results of highly educated people with no morals leading business and government over the cliff. The correlation between gifted minds, high IQ's and success are very suspect. Many times men(and women) of good moral character are far more successful in the long term (life long) than the "brights" who have great potential, put waste their time in pursuit of "education" rather than "doing something worthwhile".

Far more lives are affected today in a positive way by the results of college drop out computer geeks, than some high IQ college educated papered political science/law graduate.

Some of the smartest people I know never went to college, rather they went to work doing something they love and are very successful years later.

I also think IQ is overrated. Some of the most intelligent people out there are social imbeciles. It's nice to be smart, but if you cannot interact with your fellow man, you are a very useless person.

BTW, I have an IQ higher than the speed limit, so this is not sour grapes.

[39. Louise from Chicago said the following at 12:32 PM on Apr 3:]

39

Comment 36, in your particular situation, would a move out of CA been an option?

I am not criticizing your choices or indeed those of anyone else...but I'm just asking that if your eventual goal is to be a stay-at-home parent would moving to another state which does not require a masters degree for your chosen field been a reasonable option for you?

[40. DannieA said the following at 12:52 PM on Apr 3:]

40

I think there are only some states that do not require a graduate degree in my area...so yeah I guess moving out of CA would be an option if I want to be seperated from my family...but since family is important, I wouldn't want to leave CA...why would I do that? Plus in order to work with some of the kids I work with, I'd want a graduate degree....and I think people mistake SAHM people as those who stay at home for 18 years....that would only be a couple or 5 years til they go to school.
And I may not be a SAHM...my point was that some professions are kid friendly and variable but you still need a graduate degree

[41. Louise from Chicago said the following at 1:25 PM on Apr 3:]

41

Comment 40, it doesn't sound like my comment 20 applied to your situation.

I meant people whose definite primary goal is to be a stay at home parents for an extended time, i.e. more than ten years.

[42. BDB said the following at 1:32 PM on Apr 3:]

42

>>BTW, I have an IQ higher than the speed limit, so this is not sour grapes. <<

And he farms in Montana, where there's NO speed limit!

Seriously, though, it does depend on field. I knew a guy who had a full-ride scholarship at one law school, and no scholarship at a slightly more prestigious law school. His chosen field: real estate law. I suggested to him that for that field, it wasn't worth the student loans that would cause him to delay marriage, and he enrolled in the less-prestigious school.

Well, his professors at the less-prestigious school told him he should go to a better one. He changed his field to being a constitutional law professor and is now at Yale law school.

For what he wants to do, yes, it's a good move. And since he had one year of law school for free, that will reduce his overall loan burden.

A more difficult question is what to do when you change your direction after finishing your undergraduate degree. A good friend of mine did honors work in Biology in preparation for medical school. Well, because she's from a state that doesn't have a medical school, her state residency preventer her from getting into med school on the first try. She had the grades and MCAT scores through the roof.

However, she also felt God call her into hospice nursing. Indeed, she cared for three of her grandparents until their death. There were only about 3 schools in the state that would accept her into a Master's degree in nursing program without having an undergraduate degree in nursing. That really limited her options.

Her husband did the brilliant thing, though. He went back to live with his parents; got a full-time teaching assistant job at the local state college (he had previously planned to go to med school, too), and he finished two master's degrees using his tuition discount - putting his pay into a savings account for future marriage. He's not even a Christian. Now, he works in banking. And yes, it confuses people when he applies for banking jobs with an undergraduate degree in Biology - the MBA at least helps.

To give an extreme example, to be a social worker requires a Master's degree, but only pays around $30,000/year, so DON'T go into debt to get that degree.

[43. Kellie said the following at 1:41 PM on Apr 3:]

43

This post is directed towards women, but I think it's applicable to everyone, regardless of gender or future aspirations. Not too many people are going to make enough money to easily afford to pay back large student loans.

[44. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 3:23 PM on Apr 3:]

44

There is definitely a need to be careful about the amount of debt we go into for education. The cost in the years after graduation is something that should be considered.

One thing I must say though is to comment on the value of choosing to go to a Bible college or Christian Universoty. Looking at the costs of the two schools I was looking at, it made the most sense financially and debt-wise to stay at home and attend the local community college. That is exactly what I did for the first two years. But, after those two years I came to the very sudden realization that I had made the wrong choice for myself and then had to go through the challenges and having to make up classes of transferring to a Christian university. The program I was taking was very demanding in how it was set up and I realized that in those two years I had been isolated just about completely from Christian influence (outside of living with my family, who I only saw in passing). There were other Christians and Christian groups meeeting on the campus, but having classes in the evenings and over most lunch hours (my breaks always fell at strange times) meant that I was in class when most of them were meeting. With these realities the local community college was actually the wrong choice for me even though it financially made the most sense.

While taking time to consider the financial realities of the school choice you make is incredibly important, there are other considerations to take into account too. For some people (like myself) choosing the more costly route is the better option.

[45. A said the following at 8:07 PM on Apr 3:]

45

Thank you for this article. As a financial aid professional at a private school, I've seen this happen over and over. I've made it my goal to educate students about these types of choices early on...and your article will be a valuable tool in sharing this idea with our students and administration as well! Thanks again!

[46. Alex said the following at 9:26 PM on Apr 3:]

46

Thanks for the article but what about those who couldn't help but be in so much debt? Going to a top 20 law school (believe it or not one of the 2 places I got in - rejected by my way lower ranked state school_ at $45K or more a yr I am a woman who is believing in the Lord for all my needs. I dreamed about going to law school and for some reason the Lord wanted me to this particular school but yes at times I am scared and I probably will move in w/my parents after graduation to knock off some of the debt. Any advice

[47. Rachel said the following at 9:32 PM on Apr 3:]

47

I think boundless contradicts itself too much when it comes to college advice. Much of the college advice that is given warns students of going to public universities and promotes private Christian universities instead. Even though, most people can not afford a private education. Also, I disagree with the advice that is given to girls. Now I would not advise going into huge amounts of debt, but I think women need an education of some kind because the job market is not what it was. Even if you are a stay at home mom, I think you would feel more comfortable knowing that you could find work if your husband lost his job. But, lately some of the people boundless promotes do not advise women going off to college.

[48. Julia said the following at 10:24 AM on Apr 4:]

48

I feel really blessed by God since in Brazil the top schools are actually owned by the government so they are free. Of course they are difficult to get in depending on what course you choose, but it's nothing impossible

[49. Celebrindal said the following at 1:18 PM on Apr 4:]

49

There are usually ways to finance a decent education without accumulating overwhelming debt. For me, with parents too poor to afford my education, I got federal aid that paid for all my undergrad tuition and books. For grad school, I went to a small state university where the tuition is low. I've been working as a graduate assistant for the school and had a part time job until recently. I may not have any free time, but I'll have zero debt when I graduate in May. Not only that, but the graduate assistantship gave me the teaching experience that I needed to get a job teaching at a community college. It doesn't pay that much, but when I don't have to worry about paying off loans, it's plenty enough to live on.

[50. Alden said the following at 1:25 PM on Apr 4:]

50

Though I agree that excessive borrowing for college is not the best idea (nor necessarily scriptural), I contend that there is a bias in this post against pursuing the "life of the mind." This pursuit should form a fourth reason to go to college: to get an education, not an "education."

While I too know many insightful and intelligent people who have never been to college, or have only gotten their bachelor's degrees, this should not dissuade us from pursuing higher degrees. The evangelical presence in the academy is weak. We lack the intellectual muscle to enter into discussion with the intellectual elite of this country. If I may quote from Mark Noll's Scandal of the Evangelical Mind:

"... the point is not simply whether evangelicals can succeed in the modern academy. The much more important matter is what it means to think like a Christian about the nature and workings of the physical world, the character of human social structures like government and the economy, the meaning of the past, the nature of artistic creation, and the circumstances attending our perception of the world outside ourselves. Failure to exercise the mind for Christ in these areas has become acute in the twentieth century. That failure is the scandal of the evangelical mind" (Noll, 7).

We mustn't dissuade those who are able to move into the upper echelons of our education system to explore these questions and contend with the non-theist, even anti-Christian, intellectual tendencies which dominate our society. The academy is a place of great influence and progress. It is also a primary means by which we seek to understand how to live like Christ in our contemporary context. Our ethos for far too long has been "activistic, populist, pragmatic, and utilitarian... [allowing] little space for broader or deeper intellectual effort because it is dominated by the urgencies of the moment" (Noll, 12)

This post's perspective on "education" is a self-seeking one. Education should not be pursued as "knowledge that helps enrich life and explore opportunities." This is egotistical. It is training such that we might love God with all our minds, utilizing our God-given talents to advance His kingdom in the world. The Christian should view education as a means for God to use her, to develop her talents for His use.

Not all minds are made for this kind of education, to be sure. Some should instead pursue a less costly, more pragmatic route. But to eliminate higher intellectual development for the advancement of God's kingdom from the list of reasons to go to college simply will not do.

[51. Leah said the following at 11:13 PM on Apr 4:]

51

farmer Tom - pretty sure most people have an IQ higher than the speed limit in most states :P

I do, however, agree with your comment. Someone with a high IQ can benefit just as much from a less expensive university. 'Less expensive' does not = 'uncompetitive'. Or indeed 'less education'. In fact, I'd chance it and say the higher your IQ, the less you need university. I'm not saying it would be BAD to go to uni, and I'm certainly not discouraging those who are required to go to uni for their particular field. I realise it takes a lot of brains PLUS a tertiary education to become a doctor, lawyer, teacher, nurse, etc. But if you have a high IQ and are not required to have a tertiary education for your field of interest, you probably don't need it as much as someone with the lower IQ. Look at Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Kerry Packer (not sure if you Americans are familiar with him- he was Australia's richest man when he died in 2005). Less intelligent people probably would have had less chance of pulling off what they did.

[52. Leah said the following at 11:22 PM on Apr 4:]

52

bb (21) - I don't think your situation is in disagreement to the article. Because your degree enabled you to get such a well-paying job, you are able to pay it off quickly, so you aren't going to be a slave to your debt for long. That's all Ted was saying. You have to have a serious think about how much you are borrowing and how long you will be tied to that debt. Most people with a $100,000 debt will take years and years and years to pay it off, potentially disabling them from being stay at home mothers if that's what they desire. Your debt will not disable you from such options if that's what you want. Not for long, at any rate.

Notice Ted's conclusion. May we... make decisions now, that will help us avoid... decades-long financial enslavement...

Your decisions have helped you avoid decades-long financial enslavement :)

[53. Leah said the following at 11:27 PM on Apr 4:]

53

Tamara (Canada) 44 - it kind of concerns me that you were relying on college to provide your Christian support network. While finding a Christian support network at college is excellent, and strongly advisable, I can't see why it should be the "make or break" decision in attending a particular college. (Unless of course you are pursuing a bible/theological degree!) Did you not go to church? Were you not involved in church activities?

[54. Melanie said the following at 12:26 AM on Apr 5:]

54

I personally struggled with this issue before deciding how to pursue my "higher education". I THANK GOD for showing me HIS plan for ME. Now, God has an individual plan for each person, but the one He chose for me is one that I like to talk about in case He might desire you to try this way as well.
I went through a year of a local, Baptist Bible college which cost me roughly about $500 (my Dad payed for half). During that year I became very bored during class. I learned more from outside reading and homework then I did in almost ANY class. Also during that year, God brought me to an organization called CollegePlus! which is a coaching program that helps people get a bachelors degree. The process is called "Accelerated Distance Learning", is almost completely out of the classroom and is fully accredited. Now, I would have to agree about carefully looking at your future plans before choosing this option.

My heart is to be a stay at home mom who homeschools her kids. I never want to lose the joy of learning and that is one reason that I am pursuing a degree. I also wish to pass on a passion for learning to my future children.

All in all, I will be spending less than $15,000 for a Bachelors degree in Communications. I will graduate without debt (and therefore will not burden my future husband!) and in about half the time it takes a "normal" student to earn a bachelors degree. In fact, I will be finishing my bachelors degree in less time than it is taking my sweetheart to finish his associates (ie. we've both been in school for 2 semesters. He has 18 credits and I have 75; we are also working about the same amount of hours a week.)
For those who wish to have a degree but are somewhat unsure if they will use it, I would pray about this option of an accelerated distance learning degree. Check out CollegePlus!

[55. Ted Slater said the following at 10:12 AM on Apr 5:]

55

Rachel (47) -- you are going to have to give some examples. I'm not seeing the contradictions you are. Education -- for both women and men -- is good; irresponsible or thoughtless debt is not.

[56. Rachael said the following at 10:41 AM on Apr 5:]

56

Rachel - I bet lots or all of the Boundless authors would be just dandy with women getting an education.

re: that thought

Also perhaps we should look at it from a self-confidence level. I think my mom feels that her sister feels like 'the black sheep' because she didn't finish college while the rest did...maybe that's not the only reason, and maybe I'm not getting it right, but that could be her feeling...

I think to people with degrees it often doesn't matter whether or not others choose to get them.

Degress, schmagrees. Of course they're not everything...

But...for people who don't have them, maybe it would make them feel good if they could get a 1-2 year degree or go through some kind of training program and get a certificate in some kind of skill. That might be very good to keep a basic self-confidence, if they have a hard time in the confidence arena. Now if they don't need a little boost and are fine doing whatever it is that they're doing, power to them! But I bet a degree or certificate could be helpful to help some/many people's level of confidence, whether they use the degree or training or not...

[57. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:45 AM on Apr 5:]

57

Alex,

Regarding your question about law school and cost. I don't know what law school you got into, or what you plan on doing with your JD, but if the school is $45K/yr consider that upon graduation you will have a debt of $135K.

Now, if you wish to pay that off ASAP, the best job you can get money-wise is to work for a major firm, especially one of the NLJ 250 firms (good news is that if you indeed got into a "top" law school like Yale/Harvard/U of Chicago/etc this will be easier to do assuming your grades are good). Unfortunately, those jobs are low compared to the ratio of law students and very competititve. Furthermore, assuming to get one of those jobs, they also tend to be very time intensive (60+ hour weeks).

It'll be important to try and make connections in your summertimes. Forego that long vacation or working as a waiter at Chili's and try and get a good internship, even if it doesn't pay.

Finally, 'No', I'm not a law student/lawyer. I've just done a lot of research into this topic as I've considered law school myself (get the book "Law School Confidential" if you can. A very useful resource).

[58. DannieA said the following at 3:34 PM on Apr 5:]

58

Leah 53...

for some people it's not about NOT going to church...if College will be your only way to increase your chances of marrying a believer then yeah you need to go. Maybe not in populated areas where churches have more young adults attending, but I've met some of my friends who come from small towns that didn't have a great 'dating pool' that went to a Christian University and found their mate....if that is their goal, then yeah that has to be an option in some cases...(not all mind you).

And Ted, you mentioned earler...not to go into a lot of debt for a degree like social work....however, I think you should also research the field and any opportunities that may arise. I had a friend who finished undergrad in Social Work and obviously needs to finish her Masters...but she took a job with the county CPS and they paid for her grad school in return for her working there for at least 4 years...so her debt is minimal and I think she already paid it off and she's youngish so sometimes there are ways to go into a desired field without racking up debt.
However, in general you need to evaluate if the end result is going to be worth any debt.

[59. Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D. said the following at 5:30 PM on Apr 5:]

59

Former economics professor Thomas Sowell has pointed out the advantages of cheaper universities (e.g. in Economic Facts and Fallacies). The prestigious ones are best at research, and this is how they select their professors. The "teacher of the year" award is infamous for being a kiss of death for a young lecturer seeking tenure. So young people may be attracted to the uni by its famous names, but they will hardly ever be taught by them. They will be too busy with research, and will assign graduate students to do the actual teaching. At a smaller uni, less prestigious for research, you will be more likely to be taught by Ph.D. experts in the subject, and get a good education for far less cost.

[60. A regular poster said the following at 7:17 PM on Apr 5:]

60

School: State university (and lived at home while studying)

IQ: High

Part time work while studying?: Yes

Debt at graduation: $15K

Debt paid off: 4 years after graduation

Current age: 30

Current debt: $0

Current assets: A house

----

I'm living proof that if you are an (over)-achiever, you will succeed* REGARDLESS of where you study. (*Succeed financially.) My career path was as follows:

- Joined a graduate program in a company known for hiring "young bright people"
- This gave me a fantastic grounding in my industry
- After 4 years, I quit to become a much-higher-paid contractor
- 5 years of contracting has taken me around the globe

So I agree with Ted - if you work hard, apply yourself and are *good at what you do*, the place where you studied tends to lose meaning.

[61. JJ said the following at 8:18 PM on Apr 5:]

61

I think this article makes a great point. My high school counselor push me towards an education at the expense of $30k in loans. Five years later, I have an associates degree without any debt. I have a decent job and I am working on a four year degree one class at time. Trust God timing. I asked God for a college education and I am getting one - one step at a time.

[62. Alison said the following at 9:31 PM on Apr 5:]

62

so, my comment on students with high IQ seems controversial.
interesting... should not Christians with a talented mind be encourage to use the gifts God gave them? unfortunately, not all universities are equal. some private & more expensive schools are better resourced to help students with the learning process. Im referring particularly to students interested in the sciences, medicine, law, and business. I don't know why we aren't encouraging talented Christians to be an influence in these important spheres of influence? And many students who graduate from these schools will be able to turn around and payoff there debt when they graduate, because of the projected income of their career. (A side note, most of the best PhD programs are endowed, so students don't even have to pay tuition).

[63. Rachael said the following at 11:27 PM on Apr 5:]

63

re: critical thinking

I believe a commenter on this blog once advocated the idea of everyone or all college-educated people getting trained in critical thinking (and possibly other things).

So, on the 'critical thinking' note:

I do think this is an important skill. It does not have to be learned at college. And perhaps some personalities are more prone to have this skill than others. And there can be advantages and disadvantages of this skill.

But I believe it would be neat if more believers developed this skill, in combination with a spirit that longs for the Bible to be the ultimate standard of truth. Sure, God can work through speakers who are not exactly 'spot on' about the Bible.

But I wonder if some people can get swayed on the charismatic appeal, humor or public speaking ability of the teacher. It is my hope that believers generally look at the content over the presentation and use their Biblical knowledge as a conscious or subconscious measuring stick.

[64. BDB said the following at 12:57 AM on Apr 6:]

64

Here's a relevant article about how the budget situation is causing Califonia students to delay college graduation.

One advantage of private schools is they are smaller, so are more flexible about letting you into a full class if you need it to graduate on time. I never got turned down anytime in my private school career.

Of course, you have to know your plan and have it all planned out, which I did, years in advance. I could show the prof my degree plan and say, "This is why I need in this semester."

The other advantage of a small school is that if you have a problem with the Dean, you can schedule a meeting with the Dean and plead your case. Never got turned down on those, either. But I had to do the work and prepare the case.

One time, I needed a class to count towards one degree. Unfortunately, the professor who taught the class wasn't getting along with the department head (she felt because she was a woman.) He refused to fill out the paperwork to get the class approved by her. So I had to do it. I did the work, submitted it on behalf of the professor, and she approved it, so I could count it towards my concentraton. Ah, the lovely world of grad school politics.

Great preparation for dealing with bureaucracy!

[65. Jacob said the following at 10:37 AM on Apr 6:]

65

I am rather disturbed, Ted, by the tone of this blog post:
"If higher education, then, is primarily about preparing for a job/career (in order to earn a living, and facilitate some meaningful engagement with and contribution to society), and about long-term relationships (which may result in business leads, foot-in-the-employer's-door opportunities, and a spouse) ... then it follows that the educational choices you make should enable such things, and not inhibit such things."

This idea smacks of utilitarian "ends-justify-the-means" reasoning. Education is relegated to being simply a set of hoops one jumps through, and not a good, in and of itself. Certainly education has inherent value, does it not? I'd like to think you would agree, but I'm having trouble reconciling that paragraph with the notion that education is a good thing, for its own sake. Progressivism has turned the university on its head and has made education all about "productivity" and "efficiency," rather than about true leisure and meditation on what is true, good and beautiful.

You are correct in saying that these goods are not found exclusively in the halls of the Academy, but they are more likely to be found there, in many cases, than elsewhere.

[66. skp said the following at 1:04 PM on Apr 6:]

66

I think you need to consider more than money.
Can you graduate?- State schools often only graduate 50% of those who start.
How long will it take?- Some 4 year state school programs actually take an average of5 years due to getting closed out of classes and rigid requirements
Can you get into the major you want?- with competitive admissions some major programs at state schools are very difficult to get into- ie athletic training major- 7 out of 100 applicants accepted.

[67. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 3:20 PM on Apr 6:]

67

Leah (#53) - In my previous post I did explaing part of why I ended up so distant from other Christians. A good part of the reason being that I ended up with many evening classes as well as day time classes (it was not unusual for me to be in class 4 evenings a week), because that was the only time the classes I needed were offered.

I also, out of necessity, as my parents were unable to financially contribute to my college education, was working part time. This meant that as much as I would try to regularly be at church (ie. at the very least have Sunday morning off), sometimes there was no way around work scheduling me for a Sunday morning shift.

I'm not saying that the availability of a Christian support network should "make or break" a decision abour which college to attend. The point I was trying to make is that sometimes it needs to be given more of a consideration than it often is. If I had actually sat down and looked at what the schedule I would have to sign myself up for at the local college would do to my ability to connect with other Christians, I may have at least given the Christian education more of a consideration, than I did looking at it from the financial side only. While financial considerations are important and should be carefully looked at, they're probably not the only thing we should consider.

DannieA (#58) - Good point. I had never thought of it from the point of view of someone in a small town or church. I had the opposite problem. My church was so large that with a busy schedule you could slip in and out unnoticed, and if you weren't free on the evening of the young adults or college group meeting during the week, getting to actually know anyone was incredibly difficult.

[68. Al said the following at 4:22 PM on Apr 6:]

68

Farmer Tom said, "Far more lives are affected today in a positive way by the results of college drop out computer geeks, than some high IQ college educated papered political science/law graduate."

As someone who is a software engineer and works in the industry, I can tell you that what you are implying here is patently not true. Sure, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were college drop-outs. But they are the exception, not the rule. They were also both geniuses and had promising business prospects lined up when they decided dropping out would be more profitable than finishing their degree. The rest of us sub-geniuses need college or university. Software architecture and digital circuit design is not something you really pick up in your spare time. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs don't change the world without the tens of thousands of engineers that work for them-- who are almost entirely university educated.

There are probably more people who quoted "Bill Gates dropped out of college!" to their parents and dropped out of school to their detrement than there are those who successfully emulated his example.

Alden said, "Education should not be pursued as 'knowledge that helps enrich life and explore opportunities.' This is egotistical. It is training such that we might love God with all our minds, utilizing our God-given talents to advance His kingdom in the world. The Christian should view education as a means for God to use her, to develop her talents for His use."

While I wouldn't say that pursuing education for practical preparation and opportunities isn't necessary "egotistical", it is short-sighted if that's the only view we have regarding the purpose of higher education. J.P. Moreland also made this point and quoted Knoll in "Loving God With All Of Your Mind" when he lamented that as a culture, we see college only as a tool for practical purposes and vocational training, rather than as a tool to enrich our minds and thinking.

Not everyone needs to go to an expensive college if their immediate goals and skills for their desired career can be acquired elsewhere. Not all of us are meant to be intellectuals and challenge the philosophies and world-shaping ideas of the intellectual elite.

But just as many people may be taking on unwise debts by taking on loans difficult to pay off with their future salary-- perhaps too many Christians are not choosing to engage in a major battleground where the supremacy of ideas and worldviews are fought today-- within the halls of prestigious universities. Competitive ideologies are often allowed to gain traction and be broadcast as legitimate to our culture without careful, credible challenge.

Fortunately, there seems to be a rise in the number of Christian philosphers lately-- enough to alarm atheist philosophers. While not all of us are called in this way, and some of us need "less" rather than "more", we cannot all abandon the honored institutions of thought and learning out of a misguided, utilitarian pragmatism. After all, ideas do shape worlds.

[69. BDB said the following at 5:34 PM on Apr 6:]

69

I will agree with #59 that the most prestigious universities will give you a better deal as a graduate student than as an undergraduate. It's also a lot easier to get into specific graduate programs than the undergraduate school.

For example, one of the things that happens in Harvard's MBA program is that young, early-career people get to interact with those who are already successful career people. This can be life-changing: being able to test your ideas about how the world and economy works against those who were recently doing it.

Even if you believe you are called to teach, say at a small liberal arts college, it's very handy to have that Ivy-league graduate degree. It will always open doors. And there are often good scholarship and fellowship programs for PhD students. If you are in the top 10% of students on standardized tests, depending on your chosen field, it is likely your professors will encourage you to pursue graduate studies. Only about 7% of the U.S. population actually finishes a graduate degree; many, many PhD students drop out before finishing and leave with a Master's degree. (Sometimes this happens when they fail to pass their comprehensive exams, sometimes they go get a job and never finish their dissertation, sometimes they have their worldview blown up and lose heart, sometimes they get married and don't care anymore...)

Unfortunately, an MBA is kind of a golden handcuff's problem. Most scholarship progrms assume that you'll make lots of money, so MBA students don't qualify. The same thing for the tax code: the student loan interest deduction ends at $65,000 income, so if you make enough money to pay back your loans, you don't get the tax relief. It's easy to end up stuck in a high-paying, very time-demanding job just to pay off the loans.

You really want to pick a graduate program that matches what you are called to do, and a school that is good at that. My brother-in-law stayed at his undergraduate institution for his firs master's degree specifically because what he wanted to do (heat-transfer mechanical engineering) was something his professors were the best in the world at. This is particularly true for PhD students - you need a graduate advisor who is qualified to evaluate you in your chosen dissertation topic.

[70. Al said the following at 6:13 PM on Apr 6:]

70

Me, (#68) wrote, "While I wouldn't say that pursuing education for practical preparation and opportunities isn't necessary 'egotistical'"

Oops, that should read "is" instead of "isn't".

[71. Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D. said the following at 7:46 AM on Apr 7:]

71

Parents should also be wary of spending a fortune just to see their children indoctrinated in radical socialist anti-American feminist atheopathy. Criminology professor Dr Mike Adams had an amusing suggestion for one father to cure his daughter of socialist indoctrination.

[72. Trisha in AR said the following at 12:05 PM on Apr 7:]

72

I've been taking grad courses a bit at a time but recently put everything on hold for the reason of incurring any additional debt. I decided to turn it over to God. He knows our hearts, right? Yesterday I received a call from the director of the private college I was attending. She received a donation to cover one class ($1400) and asked if I would be interested in taking a course next month! Praise Jesus! I'd like to think our Heavenly Father had a bit to do with that. He's so good!

[73. BDB said the following at 12:53 PM on Apr 7:]

73

The structure of the economy has changed the job market in favor of education. I know a few guys over 50 who held senior positions. Their companies were sold, their jobs were eliminated. They find that the don't even get an interview without a degree - the 20-something HR coordinators who screen resumes can't fathom how someone without a degree can become a Director at a company. Of course, at a minimum, the need to be willing to learn Excel and MS Office to be able to work at a new company. But they may also need to go back to school to prove they can learn and adjust to a new situation.

Oh - I should mention that there are other options for people after they finish their undergraduate degree.

Say you finish a liberal arts or Bible degree, but end up working in business. If you are working for the same company, they probably know you well enough to let you work in different roles. But if your company goes bankrupt or closes, you will find yourself interviewing with people who dont know your skills. So, they look at your degree. Like it or not, in fields like accounting and finance (or even computer networking), the recruiters are rejecting any resume that doesn't show that undergraduate degree in the specific field they are hiring for.

But there is an alternate solution. You can go back to school and develop business-related skills from other sources. A good example is the Certificate in accounting program at UC Berkeley Extension. It costs about $5000 to finish - far less than a bachelor's degree. The program is designed for those who already hold a bachelor's degree in some field. It's probably roughly equivalent to an undergraduate major.

So, while your major and undergraduate degree are not a complete deal-breaker, be prepared to go back to school 20 years after you graduate from high school to adjust to changes in the job market.

[74. Larry Geiger said the following at 2:00 PM on Apr 8:]

74

My brother is a university professor. He went to New College, got his graduate degrees at Princeton and his post-doc at Yale. His advice to anyone who asks is get the best undergraduate degree you can get for the best price. He says that Ivy league undergraduate degrees are highly over rated. He says that in most cases people will get a better undergraduate education in a good state school. Once you know what you really want to do, go to the graduate school of your choice.

Secondly, in any pursuit, there are heuristics (rules of thumb) which people can use to make judgements. One of mine is that if you are living and paying education expenses totally on borrowed money, then you're in a bad way. Most people should be able to at least provide living expenses by working, from their parents, or from savings. It's almost always a bad idea to borrow more than educational expenses. Most of you don't have the discipline to control those costs (and I didn't either at that age!).

My youngest son started out university with a full tuition scholarship. Our deal was we pay room and board and you cover tuition with your scholarship. He lost the scholarship (bad decision making!), got a job at Sears changing tires, covered his tuition and books, and graduated debt free.

If you're spending $50,000 a year on tuition and you're not in medical school, and you don't know where that $200,000 is going to come from, you're in way over your head.

[1. Ted Slater said the following at 4:22 PM on Apr 2:]

1

I should add that it took me 12 years to move from high school graduation to grad school graduation, that I worked full-time during some of those years, and part-time during other years, that I applied for and received scholarships, that my undergrad was Northern Michigan University (a state college close to home), and lived *very* frugally (being homeless during one stretch of time). Consequently, I had my student loans paid off within a couple of years.

And look where I am now! :-)

[2. Sarah said the following at 4:40 PM on Apr 2:]

2

I couldn't agree more. In January, I was pursuing a master's degree at a private college. I was almost half way through the program when I realized I had to stop.
My dream is to be a wife and mother someday. The short-term economic gains I would get with additional education did not equal the additional student loan debt I would incur. It was a hard decision, but it came with so much peace.
It was also sobering to realize exactly why I was pursing higher education - my motivation was pride. I wanted to have the accomplishment of earning an advanced degree. I wanted to tell people the fancy name of the institution I was attending. I wanted to spend my free time "bettering myself." It was all about me.
So now, I will continue my "education" by learning from the godly women at my church who die to self every day to serve the Lord and their families. I will to use my time in the workforce to pay off undergrad student debt so that I won't cause a burden on my future husband when we start a family.

[3. Keith said the following at 5:04 PM on Apr 2:]

3

I remember that in my first year after high school I went to a Bible college, and at that school they had a policy against student loans. In fact, they would refuse entry to anyone living off student loans. You had to earn and save your way to go there. That meant that some of the students there were a bit older than at other schools, but at least they were gonna graduate debt free.

It is shocking how much time and money some people waste on education. Go to the cheapest college you can, spend your first two years at a community college where you can transfer, get some job experience, and stay out of debt.

[4. Thomas said the following at 5:41 PM on Apr 2:]

4

This was a pretty fair article, one thing I don't like about some of these education related ones is that they give blanket advice, when it really depends on each person's situation and their calling. I don't like blanket advice such as "go to the cheapest college you can" because that does not work for all paths and callings.

Like Ted said, if your goals are to work on Wall Street, then you'll probably need to go to top colleges all the way through. And conversely, if you have more modest goals, then going to a cheaper local state school might be a wise decision.

But I think, especially for guys who are called to provide for their families, going into certain career paths well justifies taking on some debt. Going to a top college for engineering, science, law, or business will pay back dividends well over the cost, whereas going to a lower tier school for those areas can really hurt your career options. Someone graduating from MIT for example will have global options, someone graduating from Local State will have extremely local visibility. If God's given you the intellect, talent, abilities, and calling for such an endevour, then I think it would be wise to pursue these opportunities.

Note, you can go to a top public school, such as an Univ of Cali, Univ of V, U of Mich, U of Wash, etc. But the point is, for these career paths, going to a top school is WELL worth it. And that this blanket advice of 'go to the cheapest school you can' is not at all good advice for people with these callings and abilities and talent.

[5. Kellie said the following at 6:22 PM on Apr 2:]

5

My student loans are primarily from my first two years, during which I attended a Christian college. I then transferred to a state university (my entire time at the state university cost less than a semester of the Christian college). In retrospect, I should have gone to the state university in the first place (where, ironically enough, I had a full scholarship, which I turned down).

But I was 18 years old, thinking more about getting out of the house then how to save money. (although thankfully I don't pay too much for my student loans....I can't imagine paying $1,200 a month!!!)

[6. BDB said the following at 6:26 PM on Apr 2:]

6

As someone who spent more than $100,000 on education, let me share with you what I've learned:

1) Pray about where you go to school, AND how to pay for it. I asked God to provide for my undergraduate education, and he came through - albeit at a school I never would have considered.

2) I should have prayed about graduate school loans. I assumed that because I was working full time, that was how God was providing. I should have prayed about it and applied for more scholarships and fellowships. I'm sure I could have gotten through school with less in loans had I paid more attention.

3) Having taken classes at Bible colleges, public colleges, mid-level private and expensive private, I definitely found that I got what I paid for. A "B" at the $1000-a-unit private graduate school took vastly more work than an "A" at the Bible colleges. Those professors pushed me much, much harder.

4) One advantage of private schools is that typically you have smaller class sizes. I audited two classes in grad school with less than 5 students. It cost $500 to audit. The classes were so small that the professors made me do the in-class presentations like everyone else - they didn't let me just sit there and listen to everyone else. I wasn't required to write the paper or take the final. And frankly, I learned a ton from auditing classes. I'd never have enough money to take classes from all the Christian professors at my school. But having access to them really helped me form a Christian worldview fully able to grapple with the hardest economic questions of the day.

My friends who went to state schools took 5-6 years to graduate, as did those who went to community college. My private college basically structures it to force people to finish in 4 years, even with a teaching credential. There was a lot of peer pressure to finish on time. It has been my observation that lots of people at community college are there because they don't know what to do, so they spend too much time partying and end up dropping out or taking forever to finish. Those who work for a few years, then attend a state community or 4-year college are a LOT more focused and waste less time partying. They also have a better idea who they are ready to work.

4) Avoid debt, especially if your goal is to be a mom. Better to go to an easier school that gives you a full scholarship and get excellent grades. You can always go to graduate school. In fact, I think being a stay-at-home mom of young children is a GREAT time to go to grad school: it provides some adult conversation without the intellectual distractions of work, and you can spend 5 years going to grad school and finish about the time your kids are starting school.

5) If you must take out loans, first study the starting salaries in your industry, AND check job boards to find out where they are located. The high salaries listed for top MBA and Law programs are for jobs in big cities with a very high cost of living. I was shocked when I realized a $50,000 income in the town I live in was equivalent to $100,000 in San Francisco, where all the Internet jobs were at the time.

6) One of the biggest advantages to an undergraduate education is learning how to put together a plan, such as a graduation plan. Project management at work, really any project, requires pulling together all the pieces. You can use these skills regardless of whether or not you work for pay in the field of your major.

7) Remember that accounting and engineering fields are strongly disposed towards requiring an undergraduate degree in the field. Many people cannot fathom how a liberal arts major ends up working in finance. If you do go back and get an MBA, it's worth doing the "finance" concentration so you can explain that to future employers who don't understand a political science degree, for example.

[7. J. said the following at 6:32 PM on Apr 2:]

7

I have a lot of compassion for Samantha Hillstrom, the blogger Ted linked to. I agree she made bad choices, but I also think it's shameful that her alma mater, in concert with her lender, allowed her to get into such a terrible situation in the first place.

A university that helps women when it comes to finding husbands? Ted, if you know of any and are willing to share, I'm sure many young female Boundless readers would be very grateful to you. :-) Sadly, women outnumber men at many Christian colleges by 2-to-1, so a lot of these women fall short of their goal of meeting husbands in college (assuming it is a goal of theirs). And the men in the large Christian group at my secular university were notorious for *not* asking any of the women out. This wasn't unique to my university; it was a phenomenon that was joked about at the group's regional and national conferences, too. The women weren't blameless, of course. A big problem with many Christian groups is that their very nature encourages the buddy system (what Suzanne Hadley has written about) between the sexes.

[8. Simon from Texas said the following at 6:41 PM on Apr 2:]

8

I think part of the problem with our culture is that it does not follow Jesus' advice to "count the costs." College and "doing what you want to do" are promoted as must-haves and the financial burden is thrown out the window. I am glad Boundless is bringing this issue to light.

[9. Brad said the following at 7:17 PM on Apr 2:]

9

I'll admit, I didn't have much wise counsel in my life, and if I did, I certainly didn't listen to it when I was in college. I think too many college students think the way that I thought in college, with the presumption that "God will provide" a decent paying job when I graduate from college, so I don't have to worry about my student loan debt. Well, here am I now with $38,000 in student loan debt (4 years at a State university, 1 year at a private Christian graduate school), working a low wage job where 25% of my income goes toward my loan, in hopes of paying it off in about 12 years. I can barely provide for myself right now (if I didn't live at home, I'd be living on pretty meager foodstuffs) let alone a family right now.

If your family cannot afford to pay your way, I strongly recommend either military service or working throughout college, even if it means taking classes part-time. There are few things more irresponsible than taking on a major debt before you really have any idea how you are going to pay it off.

[10. mar said the following at 7:17 PM on Apr 2:]

10

I'd encourage people to consider this even with the cost of attending a Christian university, as Ted mentioned. Public schools will often be MUCH cheaper, and there actually are Christians there, too! Most campuses have Christian ministries where you can still be in community and growing with other Christians while also building friendships with many non-Christians through your classes and living situations. I attended a public university, and I even know several people who met their spouses while there! ;) A lot of the friends I have who attended Christian universities graduated owing several thousand dollars in debt... which can put you in a difficult place for actually going into ministry. By attending a public school, you can get experience doing ministry on a daily basis (leading Bible studies, sharing Christ with people who don't know him, befriending people from other cultures who've never met a Christian) and perhaps graduate with less debt!

[11. Jesse said the following at 7:21 PM on Apr 2:]

11

I saw that article a few days ago and was also moved, but not in exactly the same way. I do feel sorry for her, as she was clearly stuck making huge decisions that will affect the rest of her life without the maturity she needed. But the woman's utter lack of accountability is sickening. We all make poor decisions and have to come to grips with the less-than-ideal situations they result in. That's called LIFE.

[12. P&P said the following at 8:08 PM on Apr 2:]

12

I also think that a big part of education is to learn critical thinking. Anyone can read an article, surf a web site or watch a television show and derive a certain set of facts, but learning how to determine the validity (and perhaps even the veracity) is the important part.

I agree that it's important to watch the bottom line, but don't let it discourage you from an education.

[13. Mark N said the following at 8:26 PM on Apr 2:]

13

Good post!

I think its great for students to be thinking about these things:

A couple complementary points:

First of all, I've noticed a very casual attitude toward debt, especially among us younger folks. Maybe its all those years of a culture of easy credit? But this is deadly. I assure you, it will catch up to you eventually.

I can't help but apply Paul's words "..I will not be enslaved by anything" to this.
Debt may often be unavoidable (esp. with the costs of tuition nowadays), but avoid it like the plague. Even if you have to give up a bunch of other things in your life, AVOID DEBT.

Second, step back and try to avoid those cliched assumptions about education and careers. They are usually keyed to where the economy, job market, and academia were at 10 or 20 years ago anyways. Higher education is good, but the more you use it like snake oil on some sort of "out of the box plan", the more you will be left disappointed, in debt, and possibly unemployable. Get good advisors, and don't assume that everything that is treated as "common knowledge" is necessarily good in your case.

And, while it is true that continuing your education later on in life will be more difficult, its probably preferable than indefinitely extending your pre-work period and racking up further debt. You may have less time later in life, but further education can be a much more pleasurable and successful venture once you've had a few years to work, get your finances in order, and generally mature a bit. If you push it into the future it may never happen, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing if you end up having fulfilling life with a good career, now is it?

Just my two cents.. (just so its clear, I'm not knocking pursuing further education, I am doing further studies, on a part time basis, right now. And I'm enjoying it quite a bit more than I would if I was doing it earlier in my life.)

[14. Leah said the following at 8:40 PM on Apr 2:]

14

It's times like these I am SO greatful for the Australian system.

For those who have not read my explanation in previous posts regarding higher education, I'll reiterate.

In Australia, we have a system called HECS-Help. It stands for Higher Education Contribution Scheme, and it's only applicable for Australian citizens (so if you are an exchange student, you don't have the benefit of it). Firstly, it means the government gives enormous subsidies for us to study. I've seen what foreign students pay to study at my university, and it's a LOT more than what I had to pay. Secondly, I don't have to pay any of it up front. If I do, I get a 20% discount, but if I don't, it simply goes onto my HECS-Help debt.

You are required to start paying off your HECS-Help debt when you graduate and get a job earning at least $35,000 a year. Your repayments automatically get deducted from your pay along with your tax, so you hardly even notice. You have an unlimited amount of time to pay it back. Well, your lifespan. And if, for some reason, you never fully pay it off, the debt dies when you die.

But the best bit, you should have picked up a moment ago- if you never earn over $35,000 a year, you are never required to pay back your debt. You can voluntarily if you desire, but you're not required to. So for women, they can plausibly do a degree and then go on to become stay at home mothers and never have to pay their HECS-Help debts back. It doesn't matter how much their husbands earn.

It helps that your average student who puts ALL his tuition fees onto HECS-Help will finish an average 3-year degree with an average HECS-Help debt of between $20,000 and $40,000, depending on the university and the degree. Not a lot, compared to our US counterparts.

This is one debt that you are not "tied" to. We're amazingly lucky in Australia. (Of course some will say we are paying for it in our taxes, but we'll always be paying those taxes whether we study or not!)

[15. Myr said the following at 11:00 PM on Apr 2:]

15

Unlike most of the people I have known, I was and am determined to avoid the burden and shackles of debt as much as possible. I only took student loans the last two years of undergrad because my younger brother was starting school then, and I did not want my parents to try to help us both out at the same time, since none of us are exceptionally wealthy. I got mine paid off roughly within a year of graduation and paid less than ten dollars of interest on my loans due to prepayments made during the eight month grace period. I now work full time at the same university I graduated from. I don't make a lot of money, but since I work for the university, I get a discount on classes, and my plan now is to take a few classes on the side to hopefully allow me to get into a graduate program at some point in the future.

My budget philosophy goes something like this: if I earn X dollars after taxes and tithe, then the amount I can spend is either less than or equal to X. I do not use credit cards or buy things on credit. If I want something, I save the money for it. Generally, all things that I can purchase fall into one of three categories; survival, not being miserable, and extravagance. I tend to avoid extravagance, if possible, and focus primarily on the first two. I don't earn much now, but I am willing to live with that, despite being told repeatedly by a coworker that most wouldn't want to live like I do. This makes me think of a quote the Architect at the end of the last Matrix movie: "There are levels of survival which we are willing to accept."

[16. sarah elizabeth said the following at 11:15 PM on Apr 2:]

16

I definitely agree that considering money is important in deciding where to go to college. To get yourself forever in debt is not a good idea. However, I think that depending on the person and situation, the benefits of a private, christian school have not been accurately represented. if you go to a small school, you are much more likely to interact with faculty and staff members who are truly interested in investing in your life. You will have an opportunity to be known. Often, there are many leadership positions that are relatively easily accesible in a small school...and staff members who will highly encourage you to apply for them! This of course, can happen at a larger school as well, but I would venture to say your ability to really get to know that staff is much more limited. I went to a small school and was recommended by my RA to apply to become an RA, from there I spent 3 years in college learning VALUABLE leadership skills through residence life. AS a freshman, I was very quiet. I know that had I gone to a large state school, then I would have disappeared into the crowd and never sought out a leadership position on my own. It wook leaders in the school to encourage me to continue applying to positions.
Honestly, I would have to add holistic growth as a person as a readon to go to college. There are many valuable lessons I learned in my small school, that I would not have learned elsewhere.

[17. DEH said the following at 11:58 PM on Apr 2:]

17

#7 J.~
I believe that Bible colleges are more likely than Christian colleges to have a more equal male/female ratio of students. The Bible college I attended was split about 50/50. I'm guessing it's because they attract a lot of aspiring pastors, who tend more often to be male.

BTW, one of my professors said in class one time that he wished all students would leave the school married. :)

[18. Jorden said the following at 12:17 AM on Apr 3:]

18

Yeah I agree Ted, I was trying to get into a local college that lets you work off your debt while your there and you graduate debt free, but unfortunately my dad makes just a smidgen too much and they put me on the waiting list. Because they only accept a few hundred students per semester. And with a program like that they get thousands of applications.

So right now my current plans are going to a local community college for the first two years and then maybe go to a local Christian University for the last two years. But the local Christian college will still be $44,000 without scholarships or other financial aid those two years. I'm guessing after financial aid though it will be closer to $30,000. Still not a fun number, but a little more reasonable.

[19. Bek said the following at 3:22 AM on Apr 3:]

19

A combination of my parents' generosity, working a few weekends during term time and a managable amount during vactions, living at home for 2 years and studying on a funded programme in Spain for 1 year (degrees are 3 years in the UK) means that I will graduate debt free. I live almost 2 hours from the university I attend. The commute is worth it.

[20. Louise from Chicago said the following at 6:36 AM on Apr 3:]

20

I do not intend to criticize anyone's life choices, but I simply will never understand anyone taking out expensive loans for a graduate degree when his/her ultimate goal is to spend several years as a stay-at-home parent!

A bachelor's degree, yes, but why on earth would anyone want to put themselves into such a large amount of debt under these circumstances?

But...it's not the first time someone didn't understand something, and it definitely won't be the last!

[21. bb said the following at 7:05 AM on Apr 3:]

21

I completely disagree. God gave me a brain. I wanted to use that brain to the best of it's ability. For me, that meant a prestigious overseas university, and a graduate degree in Politics. The level of debate, thought, and challenge that I experienced amongst my peers was BEYOND extraordinary.

Am I in debt? Yes. Did my high-quality degree allow myself and my peers to find jobs which are equally well-paid? Absolutely. My debt will be paid down within 5 years of graduation, my degree, will last forever.

It matters not if I decide to stay-at-home once I have children, I honoured a gift God has given me, I have used it for His Glory, and my debt does not diminish either of those Kingdom achievements.

[22. Stephanie said the following at 8:17 AM on Apr 3:]

22

I went to a private university and I didn't have any debt because my mom paid for it (my dad had died before high school graduation). Then, I went to an Ivy League law school where I racked up over $100,000 in debt. For awhile, I definitely felt shackled due to my student loans, which are now paid off, even though I am now in my mid-thirties.

However, there are positives too. I had career options that I never would have had, especially as a minority, if I didn't go to an Ivy League school. I have lived in cities where I had great jobs I would never have received if my degree was from my local private university.

I did lament what I thought was the lost opportunity to get married and have kids when I met someone in my 20s who didn't want to deal with my loans. But now I am with someone who I may marry, who is in his late 30s. If we end up getting married, I know that I will have alot of options, even if I become a stay at home mom, because of the degree. Even now, when I meet people at events and they ask me where I went to law school, as soon as I answer, their ears perk up and they immediately offer opportunities that they wouldn't have offered otherwise, and I got my degree 13 years ago! I also won't wonder what it's like to have a career if I get married and stay home with my kids -- been there done that - and God forbid, if my husband dies or leaves me, I have a better chance of being able to support my kids and make a decent income because of my resume.

The point is - there is a cost - a high cost to an expensive education - and this article does well to tell us to count the cost. But I don't think it means that a cheap school is always the answer for everyone. You really have to pray and decide what options you want to have in life, and then deal with the consequences of your choice.

[23. obewan said the following at 8:20 AM on Apr 3:]

23

What people use student loans for as a large impact on the debt result.

When I went to college, there were several people who paid their tuition with loans and then went out and spent their cash on new stereo's worth 25% of a full years school expenses. One guy actually went out and bought a new Mustang even!

[24. Jo said the following at 9:19 AM on Apr 3:]

24

Leah #14 -

The Aussie system sounds quite similar to the UK system (or at least, what the UK system was when I did my BA). I only took out a year of student loans anyway because I stayed at home and worked while studying.

Post-grad degrees don't usually qualify for student loans though - and yet the cost seems way below what it is in the US, from the comments here. My MA is costing £7000. That's tuition fees, not counting living costs etc - but still, I don't really understand how American students can end up with $100,000 of debt... is that seriously how much it costs? It seems crazy! Maybe the government subsidises our university education more than I realised. :/

[25. Darren said the following at 9:42 AM on Apr 3:]

25

Great Post Ted

I wish that someone had shared this with me fifteen years ago. Too often, even Christians worship on the altar of advanced degrees. Thinking that our value as a human being is somehow determined by the name of the university on our advanced degree. As God's children, the Apostle Paul had the right word for it, "Rubbish." Simply put, an advanced degree is not worth it, if it slides you into a position of having to pay off a huge debt for twenty years. Some people may read this and say, "Duh, no kidding." But, let me just say, that its easy to get sucked in. Ultimately, the debt you carry from that advanced degree will have a greater influence on your life than anything or anyone else. This may sound tremendously unspiritual, but it is unfortunately true.

[26. Rebecca Allen said the following at 9:47 AM on Apr 3:]

26

I am in so much debt and it is only my first year. I feel so trapped already just thinking about the debt I am incruing makes me nervous. I am constantly praying that God would provide but it seems He is doing so through loans. I made the choice to attend a private Christian college, one where I felt led by the Lord, now I am wondering if it was the right choice. I can only see myself going further into debt but I have this hope that I will get some high paying job that will enable me to pay it back quickly. Please pray for me, that the Lord's will would be made clear to me and/or that He would provide. Thank you for your post!

[27. Adam said the following at 9:53 AM on Apr 3:]

27

Hey Everyone!

One thing I never hear talked about in this discussion is the role of inflation. For instance, I remember parousing a little shop one time, and they had these books which reviewed the past years of American history. Incedentially, they had a book on the year I was born, 1981. In 1981, a year at Harvard was $6,000.00 a year. Now, granted, the average pay may not have been as much as it is today, but still, one would have to argue that people made only 1/8 of what they made today, meaning that, back then minimum wage would have been just over a dollar an hour. That doesn't make any sense.

Part of it is also that universities charge prices for things they really don't need. I remember that I managed to get out of undergrad in pretty good shape, but, my last year, the school decided to build, not only a new dorm [which they needed], but also a new sports complex [which they did not need]. The tuition went up because they needed more money to pay for the sports complex.

To be fair, yes, we do need to watch the debt, and try to keep it at least under $100,000, but I also think we need to address the fact that universities simply do not think about how their decisions effect the costs of their tuition, and how the costs of their tuition, in turn, are effecting the students.

God Bless,
Adam

[28. IMO said the following at 10:02 AM on Apr 3:]

28

#26
Something I learned from my pastor
is that God's will is not about which college to go to or which job to take. Those decisions come from making wise and biblically sound decisions. That's the gist of it. I could go into more depth but that's not the point of my comment to you.
Would you consider going to a good (or decent) community college( the one I went to is highly reputable in the country) for a period of time? You just started going to this private school. It's not like you are in your last semester of school.
I don't know why you felt 'lead' by God or why you think it's God's will for you to be in this private school. Those are questions I can't answer. But I do urge you to pray and seek guidance and to reconsider going to this private Christian school.

[29. Janine said the following at 10:08 AM on Apr 3:]

29

Ted,

I agree completely with your post and feel for that poor young woman. I think that education has become sorely overpriced in the United States. I recently looked into the cost of an undergraduate degree at a prestigious university in DC where students pay around $50,000 per academic year to attend. This amounts to a BA or BS that costs around $200,000. Things like this just shouldn't be. At my state university, I'll be graduating with about $15,000 in debt, a load that while large in my eyes, I feel is alot more reasonable.

[30. Ted Slater said the following at 10:08 AM on Apr 3:]

30

Rebecca Allen (#26) -- I used to live in a small apartment very close to Houston Baptist University when I was in my late teens; my roommate actually earned a degree from HBU. I was working 50 hours per week assistant managing a Burger King on Westheimer at the time....

HBU is a fine school. That said, there are other, less expensive options. My time at NMU, an inexpensive university near home in the UP of Michigan, was great -- especially being involved with InterVarsity, Campus Crusade, Baptist Student Union, and another small campus ministry. I earned quite a reputation as an editor and columnist with the student newspaper....

[31. Alison said the following at 10:23 AM on Apr 3:]

31

If God has given you the financial means to attend a private school, by all means go! If you have a gifted mind and a high IQ an expensive, but competitive school is a good choice for you. But, if you are an average student, as most of us are. You're not planning to be one of the top leaders of the world, consider a state education. My sister and I, both Christians, have great jobs and little debt. We both work with people who have much more expensive degrees. My parents were thankfully able to help us with our state tuition ( about$9,000 a yr). #10 was correct. There are Christians at public schools. I've also seen how debt can put stress on the early years of marriage.

[32. Victoria said the following at 10:27 AM on Apr 3:]

32

What a great post, I wish someone had shared this with me years ago. Luckily, my family was poor so I received substantial aid from my $50K-a-year private college, and graduated with only $7K in loans. However, my boyfriend-at-the-time was enrolled in a 5-year program, and we wanted to get married, so we did as soon as I graduated and he had one year to go still. He immediately lost his financial aid, and we ended up taking out a loan for the full amount of the tuition for his last year, roughly $40K. So combined, we had just under $50K of student loans, thank God it wasn't more. At the time it didn't seem like we had any choice, and even now looking back, I'm not sure what we would've done differently. I don't regret getting married young, even though it meant taking on so much debt. We both eventually got really good jobs and have paid off the student debt this month, praise the Lord! I think it all comes down to what your educational goals are, as Ted stated. If you want to major in art history or music, you really can't expect a great starting salary, so maybe reconsider that pricey university! Ultimately, you have no idea where life will take you, and the more debt you have, the less options you have.

[33. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:34 AM on Apr 3:]

33

Although I tend to agree that people should consider the costs vs. utility of the degree they get (including where they get it from), rising college costs is a legitimate issue that affects even the frugal. Consider that college costs have more than outpaced inflation for many years now. In some years, more than double. Even in-state tuitions at some public Universities are no longer considered cheap.

The main problem is a combination of "the college mandate" and the fact colleges tend to raise tuition much more than cutting costs.

Because many of our middle class jobs for the most part require a Bachelors degree, you will not see many balking at college. And other than college, in today's economy there are only really three main avenues towards a middle class wage: Vocational/Trade work such as plumbing, working for the Government, and Military service (which essentially is the same as #2).

Because demand will always be there, there is little incentive for colleges to keep costs low. And when budget issues do crop up in a school, it's much easier to just raise the tuition than it is to make hard cutbacks. Those currently attending will probably not drop out simply because of a cost increase, and those aspiring to go will still attend because loans tend to be out of sight, out of mind.

There is no easy solution because A) demand will always exceed supply B) schools can raise "taxes" (i.e. tuition) much easier than the government can (imagine if the government raised taxes each year in proportion to inflation), and C) student loans will always cover this cost.

One possibility would be to insist that a certain amount of the tuition either be paid for in cash or via school grant, eliminating the "loan only" mentality. That would encourage schools to either hand out more grants, or more likely make their tuition more reasonable to the average consumer. Unfortunately, this can be very unpopular politically (you'll hear horror stories about how Johnny couldn't go to college because he couldn't scape up $5,000).

Another equally unpopular but effective solution would be to demphasize "need-based" financial aid and replace it with "merit based". Some experts believe that although the concept of need-based financial aid had good intentions, it actually aggravated the problem of higher college costs rather than solve it.

In today's environment though, I believe that if you don't want to be burdened with a lot of debt other than scholarships the best way to pay for college is through the military (GI Bill, ROTC, Service Academy, etc). It's certainly not for everyone and yes, you do have to sacrifice a few years of your life for Uncle Sam. But would you rather be "shackled" for 12 years, or just 4?

[34. Ted Slater said the following at 10:43 AM on Apr 3:]

34

Alison (#31) -- I agree with you that most of us can benefit sufficiently from lower-priced schools.

I have to challenge, though, one thing you said: "If you have a gifted mind and a high IQ an expensive, but competitive school is a good choice for you."

I disagree. To be frank with you, like a good number of those who comment on The Line, I have "a gifted mind and a high IQ." I earned straight A's during my four years of grad school, earning two master's degrees and producing a pretty sweet master's thesis. One of my professors labeled me an "overachiever."

One of my favorite memories from high school was when I used an antique slide rule during my Physics final; though everyone else around me used calculators, I still earned the highest grade in the class. Yeah, I was pretty cocky. Earlier that year, I earned the highest score in my entire school on an annual state math test.

I mention these things not to brag about myself, but to show that there's more to educational choices than correlating high IQ with a high-priced university. More important is determining ahead of time what your goals are, and then finding the appropriate educational system to achieve those goals.

For me, attending a less expensive state university in undergrad was the best choice for me, then going on to a *relatively* inexpensive Christian graduate university. My educational choices have kept me from being burdened by a lot of debt, and have enabled me to have the wonderful job I currently hold.

Jesus, I think, provides some helpful insights regarding such expensive ventures as higher education: "For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, This man began to build and was not able to finish" (Luke 14:28-30).

Indeed, may we count the cost before signing off on that student loan. Nothing wrong with using some practical financial wisdom rather than relying *solely* on where we *feel* the Lord is directing us.

[35. Ashley said the following at 11:04 AM on Apr 3:]

35

Thank you for the article. I am graduating college in two months and was considering either another four years of grad school, which would put me at least $40,000 in debt, or two more years at a different university, which would result in a less advanced degree, but would cost $11,000. Given my desire to be a wife and mother someday, I think the second one is better for me, even though I did think the first program would give me more money and a "shinier" degree and job title.

[36. DannieA said the following at 11:39 AM on Apr 3:]

36

My parents raised me the best way they knew how and that was in a bubble. They sacrificed of themselves to put me in Christian Education K-12 grade because our particular denomination believes in that.
That being said, I probably was very naive when I was 18 and although I racked up some debt going to Christian Universities including Grad School....I've paid 80% of it off, and looking back going to a Christian University instead of Community/state school was for the best. I had to still learn about the "real world" and if gone to that kind of an atmosphere, I would not have survived early on.

I think the best advice for education is to be good parents and educate your children about the world, therefore, when they make decisions for college, they can make good financial decisions not based on what atmosphere they need based on naivetee.

also commentor #20 Louise;

well let's say you're like me and have aspirations to be a speech therapist...I live in CA, you cannot work as a speech therapist without a graduate degree so stopping at a bachelor's would be not smart. The upside is that if you still want to stay with your kids while they are young, you can either a) work at schools so your work schedule coincides with their school schedule as they grow older and b) you could use your license to run private clients at your home.

[37. Rachael said the following at 11:47 AM on Apr 3:]

37

I think there could have been neat benefits had I decided to go the out of state college I was considering, but, community college and in-state colleges worked for me.

It is nice I didn't have to deal with college debt.

[38. farmer Tom said the following at 12:00 PM on Apr 3:]

38

Alison said,

"If you have a gifted mind and a high IQ an expensive, but competitive school is a good choice for you. But, if you are an average student, as most of us are. You're not planning to be one of the top leaders of the world, consider a state education."

Like Ted I have to disagree with you as well, but for different reasons.

Your statement assumes that someone with a gifted mind and high IQ will benefit from college education. Yet some of the richest and most powerful men in the world did not have or failed to finish a college education. See Bill Gates.

Many of the current economic and social ills confronting this nation today are the results of highly educated people with no morals leading business and government over the cliff. The correlation between gifted minds, high IQ's and success are very suspect. Many times men(and women) of good moral character are far more successful in the long term (life long) than the "brights" who have great potential, put waste their time in pursuit of "education" rather than "doing something worthwhile".

Far more lives are affected today in a positive way by the results of college drop out computer geeks, than some high IQ college educated papered political science/law graduate.

Some of the smartest people I know never went to college, rather they went to work doing something they love and are very successful years later.

I also think IQ is overrated. Some of the most intelligent people out there are social imbeciles. It's nice to be smart, but if you cannot interact with your fellow man, you are a very useless person.

BTW, I have an IQ higher than the speed limit, so this is not sour grapes.

[39. Louise from Chicago said the following at 12:32 PM on Apr 3:]

39

Comment 36, in your particular situation, would a move out of CA been an option?

I am not criticizing your choices or indeed those of anyone else...but I'm just asking that if your eventual goal is to be a stay-at-home parent would moving to another state which does not require a masters degree for your chosen field been a reasonable option for you?

[40. DannieA said the following at 12:52 PM on Apr 3:]

40

I think there are only some states that do not require a graduate degree in my area...so yeah I guess moving out of CA would be an option if I want to be seperated from my family...but since family is important, I wouldn't want to leave CA...why would I do that? Plus in order to work with some of the kids I work with, I'd want a graduate degree....and I think people mistake SAHM people as those who stay at home for 18 years....that would only be a couple or 5 years til they go to school.
And I may not be a SAHM...my point was that some professions are kid friendly and variable but you still need a graduate degree

[41. Louise from Chicago said the following at 1:25 PM on Apr 3:]

41

Comment 40, it doesn't sound like my comment 20 applied to your situation.

I meant people whose definite primary goal is to be a stay at home parents for an extended time, i.e. more than ten years.

[42. BDB said the following at 1:32 PM on Apr 3:]

42

>>BTW, I have an IQ higher than the speed limit, so this is not sour grapes. <<

And he farms in Montana, where there's NO speed limit!

Seriously, though, it does depend on field. I knew a guy who had a full-ride scholarship at one law school, and no scholarship at a slightly more prestigious law school. His chosen field: real estate law. I suggested to him that for that field, it wasn't worth the student loans that would cause him to delay marriage, and he enrolled in the less-prestigious school.

Well, his professors at the less-prestigious school told him he should go to a better one. He changed his field to being a constitutional law professor and is now at Yale law school.

For what he wants to do, yes, it's a good move. And since he had one year of law school for free, that will reduce his overall loan burden.

A more difficult question is what to do when you change your direction after finishing your undergraduate degree. A good friend of mine did honors work in Biology in preparation for medical school. Well, because she's from a state that doesn't have a medical school, her state residency preventer her from getting into med school on the first try. She had the grades and MCAT scores through the roof.

However, she also felt God call her into hospice nursing. Indeed, she cared for three of her grandparents until their death. There were only about 3 schools in the state that would accept her into a Master's degree in nursing program without having an undergraduate degree in nursing. That really limited her options.

Her husband did the brilliant thing, though. He went back to live with his parents; got a full-time teaching assistant job at the local state college (he had previously planned to go to med school, too), and he finished two master's degrees using his tuition discount - putting his pay into a savings account for future marriage. He's not even a Christian. Now, he works in banking. And yes, it confuses people when he applies for banking jobs with an undergraduate degree in Biology - the MBA at least helps.

To give an extreme example, to be a social worker requires a Master's degree, but only pays around $30,000/year, so DON'T go into debt to get that degree.

[43. Kellie said the following at 1:41 PM on Apr 3:]

43

This post is directed towards women, but I think it's applicable to everyone, regardless of gender or future aspirations. Not too many people are going to make enough money to easily afford to pay back large student loans.

[44. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 3:23 PM on Apr 3:]

44

There is definitely a need to be careful about the amount of debt we go into for education. The cost in the years after graduation is something that should be considered.

One thing I must say though is to comment on the value of choosing to go to a Bible college or Christian Universoty. Looking at the costs of the two schools I was looking at, it made the most sense financially and debt-wise to stay at home and attend the local community college. That is exactly what I did for the first two years. But, after those two years I came to the very sudden realization that I had made the wrong choice for myself and then had to go through the challenges and having to make up classes of transferring to a Christian university. The program I was taking was very demanding in how it was set up and I realized that in those two years I had been isolated just about completely from Christian influence (outside of living with my family, who I only saw in passing). There were other Christians and Christian groups meeeting on the campus, but having classes in the evenings and over most lunch hours (my breaks always fell at strange times) meant that I was in class when most of them were meeting. With these realities the local community college was actually the wrong choice for me even though it financially made the most sense.

While taking time to consider the financial realities of the school choice you make is incredibly important, there are other considerations to take into account too. For some people (like myself) choosing the more costly route is the better option.

[45. A said the following at 8:07 PM on Apr 3:]

45

Thank you for this article. As a financial aid professional at a private school, I've seen this happen over and over. I've made it my goal to educate students about these types of choices early on...and your article will be a valuable tool in sharing this idea with our students and administration as well! Thanks again!

[46. Alex said the following at 9:26 PM on Apr 3:]

46

Thanks for the article but what about those who couldn't help but be in so much debt? Going to a top 20 law school (believe it or not one of the 2 places I got in - rejected by my way lower ranked state school_ at $45K or more a yr I am a woman who is believing in the Lord for all my needs. I dreamed about going to law school and for some reason the Lord wanted me to this particular school but yes at times I am scared and I probably will move in w/my parents after graduation to knock off some of the debt. Any advice

[47. Rachel said the following at 9:32 PM on Apr 3:]

47

I think boundless contradicts itself too much when it comes to college advice. Much of the college advice that is given warns students of going to public universities and promotes private Christian universities instead. Even though, most people can not afford a private education. Also, I disagree with the advice that is given to girls. Now I would not advise going into huge amounts of debt, but I think women need an education of some kind because the job market is not what it was. Even if you are a stay at home mom, I think you would feel more comfortable knowing that you could find work if your husband lost his job. But, lately some of the people boundless promotes do not advise women going off to college.

[48. Julia said the following at 10:24 AM on Apr 4:]

48

I feel really blessed by God since in Brazil the top schools are actually owned by the government so they are free. Of course they are difficult to get in depending on what course you choose, but it's nothing impossible

[49. Celebrindal said the following at 1:18 PM on Apr 4:]

49

There are usually ways to finance a decent education without accumulating overwhelming debt. For me, with parents too poor to afford my education, I got federal aid that paid for all my undergrad tuition and books. For grad school, I went to a small state university where the tuition is low. I've been working as a graduate assistant for the school and had a part time job until recently. I may not have any free time, but I'll have zero debt when I graduate in May. Not only that, but the graduate assistantship gave me the teaching experience that I needed to get a job teaching at a community college. It doesn't pay that much, but when I don't have to worry about paying off loans, it's plenty enough to live on.

[50. Alden said the following at 1:25 PM on Apr 4:]

50

Though I agree that excessive borrowing for college is not the best idea (nor necessarily scriptural), I contend that there is a bias in this post against pursuing the "life of the mind." This pursuit should form a fourth reason to go to college: to get an education, not an "education."

While I too know many insightful and intelligent people who have never been to college, or have only gotten their bachelor's degrees, this should not dissuade us from pursuing higher degrees. The evangelical presence in the academy is weak. We lack the intellectual muscle to enter into discussion with the intellectual elite of this country. If I may quote from Mark Noll's Scandal of the Evangelical Mind:

"... the point is not simply whether evangelicals can succeed in the modern academy. The much more important matter is what it means to think like a Christian about the nature and workings of the physical world, the character of human social structures like government and the economy, the meaning of the past, the nature of artistic creation, and the circumstances attending our perception of the world outside ourselves. Failure to exercise the mind for Christ in these areas has become acute in the twentieth century. That failure is the scandal of the evangelical mind" (Noll, 7).

We mustn't dissuade those who are able to move into the upper echelons of our education system to explore these questions and contend with the non-theist, even anti-Christian, intellectual tendencies which dominate our society. The academy is a place of great influence and progress. It is also a primary means by which we seek to understand how to live like Christ in our contemporary context. Our ethos for far too long has been "activistic, populist, pragmatic, and utilitarian... [allowing] little space for broader or deeper intellectual effort because it is dominated by the urgencies of the moment" (Noll, 12)

This post's perspective on "education" is a self-seeking one. Education should not be pursued as "knowledge that helps enrich life and explore opportunities." This is egotistical. It is training such that we might love God with all our minds, utilizing our God-given talents to advance His kingdom in the world. The Christian should view education as a means for God to use her, to develop her talents for His use.

Not all minds are made for this kind of education, to be sure. Some should instead pursue a less costly, more pragmatic route. But to eliminate higher intellectual development for the advancement of God's kingdom from the list of reasons to go to college simply will not do.

[51. Leah said the following at 11:13 PM on Apr 4:]

51

farmer Tom - pretty sure most people have an IQ higher than the speed limit in most states :P

I do, however, agree with your comment. Someone with a high IQ can benefit just as much from a less expensive university. 'Less expensive' does not = 'uncompetitive'. Or indeed 'less education'. In fact, I'd chance it and say the higher your IQ, the less you need university. I'm not saying it would be BAD to go to uni, and I'm certainly not discouraging those who are required to go to uni for their particular field. I realise it takes a lot of brains PLUS a tertiary education to become a doctor, lawyer, teacher, nurse, etc. But if you have a high IQ and are not required to have a tertiary education for your field of interest, you probably don't need it as much as someone with the lower IQ. Look at Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Kerry Packer (not sure if you Americans are familiar with him- he was Australia's richest man when he died in 2005). Less intelligent people probably would have had less chance of pulling off what they did.

[52. Leah said the following at 11:22 PM on Apr 4:]

52

bb (21) - I don't think your situation is in disagreement to the article. Because your degree enabled you to get such a well-paying job, you are able to pay it off quickly, so you aren't going to be a slave to your debt for long. That's all Ted was saying. You have to have a serious think about how much you are borrowing and how long you will be tied to that debt. Most people with a $100,000 debt will take years and years and years to pay it off, potentially disabling them from being stay at home mothers if that's what they desire. Your debt will not disable you from such options if that's what you want. Not for long, at any rate.

Notice Ted's conclusion. May we... make decisions now, that will help us avoid... decades-long financial enslavement...

Your decisions have helped you avoid decades-long financial enslavement :)

[53. Leah said the following at 11:27 PM on Apr 4:]

53

Tamara (Canada) 44 - it kind of concerns me that you were relying on college to provide your Christian support network. While finding a Christian support network at college is excellent, and strongly advisable, I can't see why it should be the "make or break" decision in attending a particular college. (Unless of course you are pursuing a bible/theological degree!) Did you not go to church? Were you not involved in church activities?

[54. Melanie said the following at 12:26 AM on Apr 5:]

54

I personally struggled with this issue before deciding how to pursue my "higher education". I THANK GOD for showing me HIS plan for ME. Now, God has an individual plan for each person, but the one He chose for me is one that I like to talk about in case He might desire you to try this way as well.
I went through a year of a local, Baptist Bible college which cost me roughly about $500 (my Dad payed for half). During that year I became very bored during class. I learned more from outside reading and homework then I did in almost ANY class. Also during that year, God brought me to an organization called CollegePlus! which is a coaching program that helps people get a bachelors degree. The process is called "Accelerated Distance Learning", is almost completely out of the classroom and is fully accredited. Now, I would have to agree about carefully looking at your future plans before choosing this option.

My heart is to be a stay at home mom who homeschools her kids. I never want to lose the joy of learning and that is one reason that I am pursuing a degree. I also wish to pass on a passion for learning to my future children.

All in all, I will be spending less than $15,000 for a Bachelors degree in Communications. I will graduate without debt (and therefore will not burden my future husband!) and in about half the time it takes a "normal" student to earn a bachelors degree. In fact, I will be finishing my bachelors degree in less time than it is taking my sweetheart to finish his associates (ie. we've both been in school for 2 semesters. He has 18 credits and I have 75; we are also working about the same amount of hours a week.)
For those who wish to have a degree but are somewhat unsure if they will use it, I would pray about this option of an accelerated distance learning degree. Check out CollegePlus!

[55. Ted Slater said the following at 10:12 AM on Apr 5:]

55

Rachel (47) -- you are going to have to give some examples. I'm not seeing the contradictions you are. Education -- for both women and men -- is good; irresponsible or thoughtless debt is not.

[56. Rachael said the following at 10:41 AM on Apr 5:]

56

Rachel - I bet lots or all of the Boundless authors would be just dandy with women getting an education.

re: that thought

Also perhaps we should look at it from a self-confidence level. I think my mom feels that her sister feels like 'the black sheep' because she didn't finish college while the rest did...maybe that's not the only reason, and maybe I'm not getting it right, but that could be her feeling...

I think to people with degrees it often doesn't matter whether or not others choose to get them.

Degress, schmagrees. Of course they're not everything...

But...for people who don't have them, maybe it would make them feel good if they could get a 1-2 year degree or go through some kind of training program and get a certificate in some kind of skill. That might be very good to keep a basic self-confidence, if they have a hard time in the confidence arena. Now if they don't need a little boost and are fine doing whatever it is that they're doing, power to them! But I bet a degree or certificate could be helpful to help some/many people's level of confidence, whether they use the degree or training or not...

[57. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:45 AM on Apr 5:]

57

Alex,

Regarding your question about law school and cost. I don't know what law school you got into, or what you plan on doing with your JD, but if the school is $45K/yr consider that upon graduation you will have a debt of $135K.

Now, if you wish to pay that off ASAP, the best job you can get money-wise is to work for a major firm, especially one of the NLJ 250 firms (good news is that if you indeed got into a "top" law school like Yale/Harvard/U of Chicago/etc this will be easier to do assuming your grades are good). Unfortunately, those jobs are low compared to the ratio of law students and very competititve. Furthermore, assuming to get one of those jobs, they also tend to be very time intensive (60+ hour weeks).

It'll be important to try and make connections in your summertimes. Forego that long vacation or working as a waiter at Chili's and try and get a good internship, even if it doesn't pay.

Finally, 'No', I'm not a law student/lawyer. I've just done a lot of research into this topic as I've considered law school myself (get the book "Law School Confidential" if you can. A very useful resource).

[58. DannieA said the following at 3:34 PM on Apr 5:]

58

Leah 53...

for some people it's not about NOT going to church...if College will be your only way to increase your chances of marrying a believer then yeah you need to go. Maybe not in populated areas where churches have more young adults attending, but I've met some of my friends who come from small towns that didn't have a great 'dating pool' that went to a Christian University and found their mate....if that is their goal, then yeah that has to be an option in some cases...(not all mind you).

And Ted, you mentioned earler...not to go into a lot of debt for a degree like social work....however, I think you should also research the field and any opportunities that may arise. I had a friend who finished undergrad in Social Work and obviously needs to finish her Masters...but she took a job with the county CPS and they paid for her grad school in return for her working there for at least 4 years...so her debt is minimal and I think she already paid it off and she's youngish so sometimes there are ways to go into a desired field without racking up debt.
However, in general you need to evaluate if the end result is going to be worth any debt.

[59. Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D. said the following at 5:30 PM on Apr 5:]

59

Former economics professor Thomas Sowell has pointed out the advantages of cheaper universities (e.g. in Economic Facts and Fallacies). The prestigious ones are best at research, and this is how they select their professors. The "teacher of the year" award is infamous for being a kiss of death for a young lecturer seeking tenure. So young people may be attracted to the uni by its famous names, but they will hardly ever be taught by them. They will be too busy with research, and will assign graduate students to do the actual teaching. At a smaller uni, less prestigious for research, you will be more likely to be taught by Ph.D. experts in the subject, and get a good education for far less cost.

[60. A regular poster said the following at 7:17 PM on Apr 5:]

60

School: State university (and lived at home while studying)

IQ: High

Part time work while studying?: Yes

Debt at graduation: $15K

Debt paid off: 4 years after graduation

Current age: 30

Current debt: $0

Current assets: A house

----

I'm living proof that if you are an (over)-achiever, you will succeed* REGARDLESS of where you study. (*Succeed financially.) My career path was as follows:

- Joined a graduate program in a company known for hiring "young bright people"
- This gave me a fantastic grounding in my industry
- After 4 years, I quit to become a much-higher-paid contractor
- 5 years of contracting has taken me around the globe

So I agree with Ted - if you work hard, apply yourself and are *good at what you do*, the place where you studied tends to lose meaning.

[61. JJ said the following at 8:18 PM on Apr 5:]

61

I think this article makes a great point. My high school counselor push me towards an education at the expense of $30k in loans. Five years later, I have an associates degree without any debt. I have a decent job and I am working on a four year degree one class at time. Trust God timing. I asked God for a college education and I am getting one - one step at a time.

[62. Alison said the following at 9:31 PM on Apr 5:]

62

so, my comment on students with high IQ seems controversial.
interesting... should not Christians with a talented mind be encourage to use the gifts God gave them? unfortunately, not all universities are equal. some private & more expensive schools are better resourced to help students with the learning process. Im referring particularly to students interested in the sciences, medicine, law, and business. I don't know why we aren't encouraging talented Christians to be an influence in these important spheres of influence? And many students who graduate from these schools will be able to turn around and payoff there debt when they graduate, because of the projected income of their career. (A side note, most of the best PhD programs are endowed, so students don't even have to pay tuition).

[63. Rachael said the following at 11:27 PM on Apr 5:]

63

re: critical thinking

I believe a commenter on this blog once advocated the idea of everyone or all college-educated people getting trained in critical thinking (and possibly other things).

So, on the 'critical thinking' note:

I do think this is an important skill. It does not have to be learned at college. And perhaps some personalities are more prone to have this skill than others. And there can be advantages and disadvantages of this skill.

But I believe it would be neat if more believers developed this skill, in combination with a spirit that longs for the Bible to be the ultimate standard of truth. Sure, God can work through speakers who are not exactly 'spot on' about the Bible.

But I wonder if some people can get swayed on the charismatic appeal, humor or public speaking ability of the teacher. It is my hope that believers generally look at the content over the presentation and use their Biblical knowledge as a conscious or subconscious measuring stick.

[64. BDB said the following at 12:57 AM on Apr 6:]

64

Here's a relevant article about how the budget situation is causing Califonia students to delay college graduation.

One advantage of private schools is they are smaller, so are more flexible about letting you into a full class if you need it to graduate on time. I never got turned down anytime in my private school career.

Of course, you have to know your plan and have it all planned out, which I did, years in advance. I could show the prof my degree plan and say, "This is why I need in this semester."

The other advantage of a small school is that if you have a problem with the Dean, you can schedule a meeting with the Dean and plead your case. Never got turned down on those, either. But I had to do the work and prepare the case.

One time, I needed a class to count towards one degree. Unfortunately, the professor who taught the class wasn't getting along with the department head (she felt because she was a woman.) He refused to fill out the paperwork to get the class approved by her. So I had to do it. I did the work, submitted it on behalf of the professor, and she approved it, so I could count it towards my concentraton. Ah, the lovely world of grad school politics.

Great preparation for dealing with bureaucracy!

[65. Jacob said the following at 10:37 AM on Apr 6:]

65

I am rather disturbed, Ted, by the tone of this blog post:
"If higher education, then, is primarily about preparing for a job/career (in order to earn a living, and facilitate some meaningful engagement with and contribution to society), and about long-term relationships (which may result in business leads, foot-in-the-employer's-door opportunities, and a spouse) ... then it follows that the educational choices you make should enable such things, and not inhibit such things."

This idea smacks of utilitarian "ends-justify-the-means" reasoning. Education is relegated to being simply a set of hoops one jumps through, and not a good, in and of itself. Certainly education has inherent value, does it not? I'd like to think you would agree, but I'm having trouble reconciling that paragraph with the notion that education is a good thing, for its own sake. Progressivism has turned the university on its head and has made education all about "productivity" and "efficiency," rather than about true leisure and meditation on what is true, good and beautiful.

You are correct in saying that these goods are not found exclusively in the halls of the Academy, but they are more likely to be found there, in many cases, than elsewhere.

[66. skp said the following at 1:04 PM on Apr 6:]

66

I think you need to consider more than money.
Can you graduate?- State schools often only graduate 50% of those who start.
How long will it take?- Some 4 year state school programs actually take an average of5 years due to getting closed out of classes and rigid requirements
Can you get into the major you want?- with competitive admissions some major programs at state schools are very difficult to get into- ie athletic training major- 7 out of 100 applicants accepted.

[67. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 3:20 PM on Apr 6:]

67

Leah (#53) - In my previous post I did explaing part of why I ended up so distant from other Christians. A good part of the reason being that I ended up with many evening classes as well as day time classes (it was not unusual for me to be in class 4 evenings a week), because that was the only time the classes I needed were offered.

I also, out of necessity, as my parents were unable to financially contribute to my college education, was working part time. This meant that as much as I would try to regularly be at church (ie. at the very least have Sunday morning off), sometimes there was no way around work scheduling me for a Sunday morning shift.

I'm not saying that the availability of a Christian support network should "make or break" a decision abour which college to attend. The point I was trying to make is that sometimes it needs to be given more of a consideration than it often is. If I had actually sat down and looked at what the schedule I would have to sign myself up for at the local college would do to my ability to connect with other Christians, I may have at least given the Christian education more of a consideration, than I did looking at it from the financial side only. While financial considerations are important and should be carefully looked at, they're probably not the only thing we should consider.

DannieA (#58) - Good point. I had never thought of it from the point of view of someone in a small town or church. I had the opposite problem. My church was so large that with a busy schedule you could slip in and out unnoticed, and if you weren't free on the evening of the young adults or college group meeting during the week, getting to actually know anyone was incredibly difficult.

[68. Al said the following at 4:22 PM on Apr 6:]

68

Farmer Tom said, "Far more lives are affected today in a positive way by the results of college drop out computer geeks, than some high IQ college educated papered political science/law graduate."

As someone who is a software engineer and works in the industry, I can tell you that what you are implying here is patently not true. Sure, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were college drop-outs. But they are the exception, not the rule. They were also both geniuses and had promising business prospects lined up when they decided dropping out would be more profitable than finishing their degree. The rest of us sub-geniuses need college or university. Software architecture and digital circuit design is not something you really pick up in your spare time. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs don't change the world without the tens of thousands of engineers that work for them-- who are almost entirely university educated.

There are probably more people who quoted "Bill Gates dropped out of college!" to their parents and dropped out of school to their detrement than there are those who successfully emulated his example.

Alden said, "Education should not be pursued as 'knowledge that helps enrich life and explore opportunities.' This is egotistical. It is training such that we might love God with all our minds, utilizing our God-given talents to advance His kingdom in the world. The Christian should view education as a means for God to use her, to develop her talents for His use."

While I wouldn't say that pursuing education for practical preparation and opportunities isn't necessary "egotistical", it is short-sighted if that's the only view we have regarding the purpose of higher education. J.P. Moreland also made this point and quoted Knoll in "Loving God With All Of Your Mind" when he lamented that as a culture, we see college only as a tool for practical purposes and vocational training, rather than as a tool to enrich our minds and thinking.

Not everyone needs to go to an expensive college if their immediate goals and skills for their desired career can be acquired elsewhere. Not all of us are meant to be intellectuals and challenge the philosophies and world-shaping ideas of the intellectual elite.

But just as many people may be taking on unwise debts by taking on loans difficult to pay off with their future salary-- perhaps too many Christians are not choosing to engage in a major battleground where the supremacy of ideas and worldviews are fought today-- within the halls of prestigious universities. Competitive ideologies are often allowed to gain traction and be broadcast as legitimate to our culture without careful, credible challenge.

Fortunately, there seems to be a rise in the number of Christian philosphers lately-- enough to alarm atheist philosophers. While not all of us are called in this way, and some of us need "less" rather than "more", we cannot all abandon the honored institutions of thought and learning out of a misguided, utilitarian pragmatism. After all, ideas do shape worlds.

[69. BDB said the following at 5:34 PM on Apr 6:]

69

I will agree with #59 that the most prestigious universities will give you a better deal as a graduate student than as an undergraduate. It's also a lot easier to get into specific graduate programs than the undergraduate school.

For example, one of the things that happens in Harvard's MBA program is that young, early-career people get to interact with those who are already successful career people. This can be life-changing: being able to test your ideas about how the world and economy works against those who were recently doing it.

Even if you believe you are called to teach, say at a small liberal arts college, it's very handy to have that Ivy-league graduate degree. It will always open doors. And there are often good scholarship and fellowship programs for PhD students. If you are in the top 10% of students on standardized tests, depending on your chosen field, it is likely your professors will encourage you to pursue graduate studies. Only about 7% of the U.S. population actually finishes a graduate degree; many, many PhD students drop out before finishing and leave with a Master's degree. (Sometimes this happens when they fail to pass their comprehensive exams, sometimes they go get a job and never finish their dissertation, sometimes they have their worldview blown up and lose heart, sometimes they get married and don't care anymore...)

Unfortunately, an MBA is kind of a golden handcuff's problem. Most scholarship progrms assume that you'll make lots of money, so MBA students don't qualify. The same thing for the tax code: the student loan interest deduction ends at $65,000 income, so if you make enough money to pay back your loans, you don't get the tax relief. It's easy to end up stuck in a high-paying, very time-demanding job just to pay off the loans.

You really want to pick a graduate program that matches what you are called to do, and a school that is good at that. My brother-in-law stayed at his undergraduate institution for his firs master's degree specifically because what he wanted to do (heat-transfer mechanical engineering) was something his professors were the best in the world at. This is particularly true for PhD students - you need a graduate advisor who is qualified to evaluate you in your chosen dissertation topic.

[70. Al said the following at 6:13 PM on Apr 6:]

70

Me, (#68) wrote, "While I wouldn't say that pursuing education for practical preparation and opportunities isn't necessary 'egotistical'"

Oops, that should read "is" instead of "isn't".

[71. Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D. said the following at 7:46 AM on Apr 7:]

71

Parents should also be wary of spending a fortune just to see their children indoctrinated in radical socialist anti-American feminist atheopathy. Criminology professor Dr Mike Adams had an amusing suggestion for one father to cure his daughter of socialist indoctrination.

[72. Trisha in AR said the following at 12:05 PM on Apr 7:]

72

I've been taking grad courses a bit at a time but recently put everything on hold for the reason of incurring any additional debt. I decided to turn it over to God. He knows our hearts, right? Yesterday I received a call from the director of the private college I was attending. She received a donation to cover one class ($1400) and asked if I would be interested in taking a course next month! Praise Jesus! I'd like to think our Heavenly Father had a bit to do with that. He's so good!

[73. BDB said the following at 12:53 PM on Apr 7:]

73

The structure of the economy has changed the job market in favor of education. I know a few guys over 50 who held senior positions. Their companies were sold, their jobs were eliminated. They find that the don't even get an interview without a degree - the 20-something HR coordinators who screen resumes can't fathom how someone without a degree can become a Director at a company. Of course, at a minimum, the need to be willing to learn Excel and MS Office to be able to work at a new company. But they may also need to go back to school to prove they can learn and adjust to a new situation.

Oh - I should mention that there are other options for people after they finish their undergraduate degree.

Say you finish a liberal arts or Bible degree, but end up working in business. If you are working for the same company, they probably know you well enough to let you work in different roles. But if your company goes bankrupt or closes, you will find yourself interviewing with people who dont know your skills. So, they look at your degree. Like it or not, in fields like accounting and finance (or even computer networking), the recruiters are rejecting any resume that doesn't show that undergraduate degree in the specific field they are hiring for.

But there is an alternate solution. You can go back to school and develop business-related skills from other sources. A good example is the Certificate in accounting program at UC Berkeley Extension. It costs about $5000 to finish - far less than a bachelor's degree. The program is designed for those who already hold a bachelor's degree in some field. It's probably roughly equivalent to an undergraduate major.

So, while your major and undergraduate degree are not a complete deal-breaker, be prepared to go back to school 20 years after you graduate from high school to adjust to changes in the job market.

[74. Larry Geiger said the following at 2:00 PM on Apr 8:]

74

My brother is a university professor. He went to New College, got his graduate degrees at Princeton and his post-doc at Yale. His advice to anyone who asks is get the best undergraduate degree you can get for the best price. He says that Ivy league undergraduate degrees are highly over rated. He says that in most cases people will get a better undergraduate education in a good state school. Once you know what you really want to do, go to the graduate school of your choice.

Secondly, in any pursuit, there are heuristics (rules of thumb) which people can use to make judgements. One of mine is that if you are living and paying education expenses totally on borrowed money, then you're in a bad way. Most people should be able to at least provide living expenses by working, from their parents, or from savings. It's almost always a bad idea to borrow more than educational expenses. Most of you don't have the discipline to control those costs (and I didn't either at that age!).

My youngest son started out university with a full tuition scholarship. Our deal was we pay room and board and you cover tuition with your scholarship. He lost the scholarship (bad decision making!), got a job at Sears changing tires, covered his tuition and books, and graduated debt free.

If you're spending $50,000 a year on tuition and you're not in medical school, and you don't know where that $200,000 is going to come from, you're in way over your head.