What's Your Plan for My Granddaughter?
by Heather Koerner on 03/26/2009 at 10:05 AM
Comedian Steve Harvey is on a book tour. I know this because in the three times I've had the TV on in the last forty-eight hours, I've seen him twice and learned once again that Lost is not for the drop-in viewer.
Harvey's new book, Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man: What Men Really Think About Love, Relationships, Intimacy and Commitment, seems to be creating quite the buzz and is #2 over at Amazon.com.
Monster disclaimer: I have not read the book. But I was intrigued by the interviews I watched. In them, Steve offered some advice that I think is sound (have some standards set before you start dating) and some that was not (he advises the "90 Day Rule"--to wait 90 days before having sex, but also says that he doesn't know anybody who can wait until marriage to have sex).
But what really grabbed my attention was the anecdote Harvey told about himself, his daughter and her grandfather. Evidently, all three were gathered at a family function, along with "the new guy"--his daughter's current boyfriend. As Harvey put it, the new guy had been around the house about five times by then so Harvey figured he had "made the cut."
At some point, boyfriend, Harvey and granddad were in the kitchen together and granddad turned to boyfriend and asked, "So, what's your plan for my granddaughter?"
Boyfriend hemmed and hawed a little bit. "Oh, you know, I don't really have a plan right now," boyfriend replied. "No, no, no," granddad replied, "what is your plan for my granddaughter?"
At this point, Harvey related how he was getting really interested and had everybody sit at the kitchen table. Because, Harvey said, granddad and I know one thing because we're men too: There is a plan. He may not want us to know it. He may not want her to know it. But there is a plan.
Eventually, Harvey said, boyfriend admitted that he didn't have any long-term intentions for the daughter. "We're just kickin' it," boyfriend told the two men.
"Great," Harvey said, "now let's invite my daughter in here as well because I think she would like to know that she's just bein' kicked with."
"They broke up the next day," Harvey said.
In the short discussion that followed, it seemed that Harvey was trying to make the point that a woman should be willing to ask the tough questions. But, even though grandad had actually asked the tough question, it didn't seem like Harvey embraced the idea that he (and dads and granddads in general) should have a place in asking those tough questions too. It made me think of Candice's book, Get Married: What Women Can Do To Help It Happen, and what she wrote about inviting your parents (and/or mentors) to be a part of your dating process: (another article about that here)
"Parents used to be very active in their daughters' preparation for marriage, their opportunities for worthy suitors, their protection from rascals ... That's rarely the case anymore.
...[Single women] have been abandoned, left to fend for themselves when it comes to getting married. For better or worse, they're all they have. No longer do young men dating young women recognize any authority or protection in the equation. It's just the guy and his date. No questions asked.
...While some parents are showing renewed interest in their daughters' struggles to marry well, most women still face the challenge of going it alone. If you're one of the few with a dad who is trying to follow a biblical model, you're blessed. Thank him and allow him to live out the responsibility God has called him to. If you don't have that support, you can ask for it."
My dad was not an integral part of my dating process. Honestly, it didn't even occur to me that my dad could be an asset in helping me to select dates (and, possibly, refuse some), hold suitors accountable and provide me with guidance.
Looking back, I realize that both parents and mentors would have made valuable contributions to me as a young woman. And, truth be told, there are certain questions only a dad can ask. And a certain way that only dads and older men can ask them. "What are your intentions for my daughter?" is just a different question than "Don't you think we should define our relationship?"
I think there's room for both of those questions. And it would be so nice for us to know from the beginning who was just planning on "kickin' it" so we could do a little kicking to the curb ourselves.
1. Keith said the following at 11:15 AM on Mar 26:
Fathers can certainly have an important role in selecting a good mate for thier children, but only if they themselves are morally upright. If they themselves are morally bankrupt, it might be better to avoid thier advise than to accept it.
Also, even good fathers should be open minded. Sometimes they have ideals which are unrealistic, and they can't see the good values within a potential son or daughter in law. None the less, their opinions should be seriously considered, and they should have an active role in guiding someone towards a positive mate.
2. Kellie said the following at 11:40 AM on Mar 26:
While my dad is a nice, Christian guy, he never seemed too concerned with the details of my or my siblings lives. He brought home the paycheck and took us out for the occasional outing, but left the day-to-day parenting to my mom.
Thankfully, my husband is much more invloved in our daughter's life...but we also have a more equal view of our roles in marriage and as parents.
3. BDB said the following at 11:48 AM on Mar 26:
I agree with Keith, that Christians with non-Christian parents might not benefit as much from parental guidance.
Though I have done this myself. I went to a relative's wedding in Vegas. It was a little bit of a surprise, but I was able to hop on a plane for that weekend.
At one point I sat down with the groom and asked him what he did. He asked, exhasperated, "Why does everyone keep asking me that?!? I have a good job!" Apparently all the men in the family had already been grilling him.
The sad part was that none of his family came to his wedding. I'm not sure why that was. But I think it's good for him to know that our side of the family was VERY interested in the well-being of our relative...
4. Lissa said the following at 1:08 PM on Mar 26:
Heather, I am so glad you wrote this. My dad and I haven't always been super close, but I have realized more and more as time goes on what a treasure that relationship has been. It's not always been easy to look at things from his perspective, but I realize now that he has so much to offer. And to the other girls out there who aren't married, I would like to say that though your father may not seem interested in this process and it may be awkward at times to include him, he really wants to be a part. He would be honored if you asked him to help you. That's what happened with me and my dad. My father and I are so much closer today because of my deliberate actions to include him in my life. I think its important that we praise fathers and men for stepping up in our generation and taking on that biblical standard of leadership.
5. Christina (in green) said the following at 1:52 PM on Mar 26:
I strongly agree that dads/granddads should play a role in this kind of thing.
This kind of question coming from the girl doesn't usually go over well - both from her not quite knowing how to approach the subject and him not knowing how to respond to her.
Have a girlfriend that is getting ready to get married and though that sounds all fine and dandy, the guy really doesn't have a plan and the girl's father is concerned. She's been keeping dad at bay, but confiding in me that she's getting really concerned.
After a week of debating it in my mind and mulling it over, came to the conclusion she needs to let her dad do what he feels he needs to do. That conversation coming from her is going to be "nagging". That conversation coming from the guy who takes her well-being very seriously and wants to see her well cared for would go a lot better.
6. Leah W said the following at 2:31 PM on Mar 26:
That story made me laugh, because my grandfather actually asked one of my boyfriends that while I was sitting right beside the guy! (My grandpa is a big guy, so the boy looked adequately terrified as he um-ed & ah-ed his way around an answer.) After I came back from my date my grandpa gave him a "C", and I'm pretty sure my dad (had he been there when my date was around) would have failed the guy. :) And while someone above mentioned that dads & grandads should cut some guys some slack; this incident actually raised the bar on the type of guy I dated. It made me realize that the men who know me best knew something I didn't know at that time... that I deserved better.
So Kudos to the dads and grandads out there who raise the standards for the daughters and granddaughters! :)
7. jd said the following at 5:42 PM on Mar 26:
interesting post. my dad encouraged me to end a destructive relationship that had been going on too long. his help was just what i needed to get through that rough patch in my life. my dad and i have had our ups and downs, but we're there for each other when it counts. i'm learning to forgive my father for things that happened in the past and it's brought us closer together. a couple years (or so) ago my dad "set me up" with my husband-to-be. my dad had my best interests at heart more than any other man in my life... who better than him to help guide me in my relationships? i know my Heavenly Father had a major role in all of this... i feel like He was speaking to me through my earthly dad!!
8. brx said the following at 8:26 PM on Mar 26:
What's really interesting is having that kind of question asked of you by a big, giant, German father who has been drinking a number of beers all afternoon - and as he goes on eating venison and telling you about a time not far back in the days when some guys would get married at the end of a shotgun barrel!
He was a cool guy!
Grace, peace, wise words, & adventure...
9. BDB said the following at 8:47 PM on Mar 26:
There was an incident where I saw someone's father took the opportunity to provide some "mentoring."
At a Bible Study one potluck night, his teenage daughter brought a couple of her high school friends to graze on our left overs.
Her dad then started telling these guys about how he met her mother at church, kept hanging out together, and ended up married.
Now, these high school guys seemed a little too surprised to respond. But the implication was subtle but clear: if they intended to keep hanging around with his daughter, he would interpret that as a sign they were considering marriage.
10. khalil said the following at 9:26 PM on Mar 26:
I think this is also a fair question us guys can ask our brothers in Christ...what are their intentions with the women they're dating or pursuing? Even if we don't know the young lady we can still look out for them and help challenge the one courting them to think and be intentional about what they are doing.
11. k. said the following at 9:31 PM on Mar 26:
Eh...it depends. My dad knew that he and my mom had successfully raised a grown woman who had good sense, judgment, and the confidence to make decisions independently. I'm not knocking people who prefer a more involved role, but it ain't the only show in town.
12. Matthew S. said the following at 11:58 PM on Mar 26:
Here's an idea (from a guy's perspective). In a dating relationship, maybe we should ask ourselves, "If I were her parents, how would I feel about me?" How would I feel if a woman I was dating was my daughter instead of my girlfriend? If I were her dad or mom, would I be uneasy about the relationship because my daughter's boyfriend had no clear direction, or would I respect him for having direction and purpose?
As Christians, we (should) follow the Golden rule, so we should view life from other people's perspectives. Parents have invested years into raising their child, so we also owe it to them to respect their care and concern for their daughter. I guess it would work imagining myself as any family member or friend. For instance, if I were the brother of a woman I was dating, would I think, "This is a great guy to marry my sister and who will take care of her," or "I wish this guy would quit wasting my sister's time."?
13. SHP said the following at 6:15 AM on Mar 27:
I've personally seen a dad asking his daughter's boyfriend what his intentions were. Basically he said "You better get serious, or leave her alone" (they had been dating for some years already, and everyone around - including both sets of parents - thought they should go to the next step sooner than later). Bottom line, the guy proposed a few weeks after that, and they got married within the year. The situation was a bit awkward, and the daughter was not very happy at first, but I think it was the right thing to do in this case. My dad did not have to do that for me (my husband was very intentional from the start), but I would have appreciated him doing it if necessary.
14. IWishToRemainAnonymous said the following at 11:52 AM on Mar 28:
I don't ask my boyfriend about when he plans to propose. I trust that he is planning to do so. I don't want him to marry me because I whined about it. (Elisabeth Elliot mentions this in the context of a woman pursuing a man for a relationship in the first place - that if a guy did end up dating a girl who pursued him, he would eventually resent her for doing the pursuing, and she would resent him for allowing her to do so. I think the same would apply to marriage.) I also don't want him to marry me because he felt like he had something to prove to my parents.
Basically, if he never proposes, I will figure that there was something wrong with me. That's not my father's problem to deal with.
15. Mike said the following at 1:27 PM on Mar 28:
Just a thought: If we're going to support the model of Dad sticking his nose in, we'd best say a word to the ladies about not biting it off if he does.
In other words, don't get your "independence" or "privacy" feathers ruffled if Dad decides to pin your suitors down about their intentions. (Speaking as a dad.)
16. Nancy said the following at 3:02 PM on Mar 28:
My best friend's dad basically threatened her and her three sisters' husband's lives on their wedding day "if they ever made his daughter unhappy." He did it for my husband too -- that's a little late in the game, but it was his way of protecting his girls.
My husband's dad was the one who asked the hard question of my husband -- apparently he really liked me, and we'd been dating for a couple years. So he took my then-boyfriend on a car trip and grilled him about when he would be proposing. A few months later, we were engaged.
This meant a lot to me when I found out about it much later. My own dad is an alcoholic and was never able to do many "dad" things for me.
17. Loris said the following at 7:46 AM on Mar 30:
jd #7, I'm right there with you. My dad was the hard shove I needed to break up with a very controlling guy, and a few years later, Dad had his eye on my now-husband, even though he was seriously dating someone else at the time.
18. Louise from Chicago said the following at 11:36 AM on Mar 30:
Comment 16, could you tell us the exact nature of the "threat?"
I can't think of a situation where issuing a threat to someone on his/her wedding day would ever be anything but inappropriate and counter productive.
19. Jo said the following at 11:40 AM on Mar 30:
Mike, #15:
"Just a thought: If we're going to support the model of Dad sticking his nose in, we'd best say a word to the ladies about not biting it off if he does."
This isn't just to you, but a comment around the general idea of Dads having this role. I for one would be furious if my Dad "stuck his nose in" with a boyfriend of mine without talking to me about it first. I'm fine with the idea that this is part of a father's role, but as far as I'm concerned, it HAS to be in consultation with the daughter, and if she doesn't want him getting involved, that should (in most cases) be respected.
I'm speaking as a 26 year old, of course. The same rules don't necessarily apply if we're talking about a teenage daughter. But even then, I would hope that a father would speak with her first and explain his position.
20. Jacob M. said the following at 12:26 PM on Mar 30:
Echoing Louise from Chicago, I also have to wonder about the nature of this "threat," and question the wisdom of those who think fathers should be threatening the lives of their daughters' fiances.
To those who think such threats are appropriate, I have to ask, do you think it would be OK for the fathers to follow through on those threats? If after 2 months of marriage the wife calls her father on the phone and says "daddy, I'm unhappy," is it acceptable for the father to come over with a shotgun and blow a gaping hole in his son-in-law's gut?
Second, just what constitutes "making his daughter unhappy?" Are we talking about beating her up, or are we talking about telling her they're on a budget and she can't buy any more shoes on the credit card? How about if she just "gets bored" with the marriage and "falls out of love" with her husband, and that makes her unhappy--can her father kill her husband then?
21. BDB said the following at 1:45 PM on Mar 30:
Threats and deterrence are an interesting topic - particularly for students of political science. Domestic violence is an interesting topic - those who seem to be victimized the most are those who seem to have no support network.
When one of the various abductions was getting attention on TV, I knew a guy who would say he was getting necklaces for his daughters saying, "If you touch my daughter, I will hunt you down." I don't think he actually did it. But I suspect that just by talking about it, if one of his daughters ever was abducted, they could say with the utmost confidence, "My father WILL find you if you touch me!"
It's not unlike what the U.S. and Japan are doing in response to North Korea's pending missle lauch - sending ships that carry missle interceptors, and letting them know that if the missle heads toward their territory, its getting shot down.
I'm betting that similarly-armed ships are already in the Persian Gulf. I know that AEGIS destroyers are, and I'll bet any of them can do it. Will it work? Interesting question. Deterrence is always a calculated risk.
22. Liz said the following at 2:01 PM on Mar 30:
#14 I hope you don't think that if your boyfriend doesn't propose it means there is something "wrong" with you. You might just not be right for each other; it doesn't mean that you have some kind of defect!
(That's my way of saying "be nice to yourself!)
I also agree about Dads being in communication with their daughters before "grilling" their boyfriends about anything, especially when the daughters are adults and no longer teenagers.
23. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 3:01 PM on Mar 30:
Liz (#22)
"I also agree about Dads being in communication with their daughters before "grilling" their boyfriends about anything, especially when the daughters are adults and no longer teenagers."
--------------------------------------
While I think it is good for Dads to let their daughters know about conversations they have where they ask tough questions to their boyfriends, I don't think that is necessarily has to be done with their permission - even if the daughter is an adult. Obviously, there would need to be respect for the decision of the daughter no matter the Dad finds out, but honestly I think it is important that Dads continue to play an active role in the lives of their daughters, even when they are adults.
--------------------------------------
Jo (#19)
"...it HAS to be in consultation with the daughter, and if she doesn't want him getting involved, that should (in most cases) be respected."
--------------------------------------
I would beg to differ with the idea that if she doesn't want Dad getting involved that should be respected. Maybe to a degree, but in my experience when the daughter doesn't want her Dad (as long as he is a loving and trustworthy man who is truly looking out for the best interests of his daughter) to get involved, that is exactly when he NEEDS to get involved, because there is probably something in that relationship that is unhealthy and needs to be exposed before someone ends up hurt.
24. BDB said the following at 9:20 PM on Mar 30:
Regarding Jo (#20) and Tamara (#23)'s comments...
Hopefully, dad starts having these discussions at age 12 about how she deserves to be treated with respect, and shouldn't accept disrespectful behavior from any guy. By 16, he should be pretty assertive with the guys who show up about his expectations of respect. By 26, he probably won't need to get involved this way - his daughter will already be confident enough to deal with anything.
Parents can lose their ability to influence their children by pushing too much too soon. If a guy they respect shows a casual interest in their daughter, and they push them both to get involved, they may find both people recoiling and never talking to their parents again about the subject of marriage - and never talking to each other again, either.
In the future, when their parents ask if they are seeing anyone, they start responding that their focusing on work. It's may simply mean they've driven their relationships underground and will pursue them out of their parents' sight to avoid future pressure. This is easier for adults to accomplish than teenagers.
But it's definitely worth looking for signs. I was at a wedding once for someone I wasn't too close to. A few hours before the ceremony, I overheard the groom telling his buddies, "Nothing's going to change." I thought, "That doesn't sound right." But under the circumstances, I didn't say anything to anyone.
They were divorced within two years; pretty nasty one too.
If I overheard my daughter's boyfriend make a comment that made my ears perk up, I might pursue the matter without her permission. There may not be time to ask her. But it might be as simple as saying, "Tell me about that" in response to an odd comment.
That said, I've also had times as a manager where my employees had a conflict with another department. I'd ask them if they wanted me to get involved. They said "no" 90% of the time, and dealt with the issue themselves. They did need to discuss it privately and make sure their expectations were not unreasonable. But I respected their decision to have me not get involved.
Watched the sitution like a hawk, of course. But didn't intervene.
25. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:12 AM on Mar 31:
I disagree with comment 23.
If an adult child wishes to proceed with his/her dating life without parental assistance/inquiries, the parent should respect the wishes of the adult child.
And...to decline parental involvement does not necessarily indicate there is a "problem"...it could merely mean the adult child has an independent nature or maybe he/she just believes that this is a private matter that is best handled by himself/herself.
Of course, the adult child should be respectful when communicating this request to the parent..for example "I know you want to do this out of concern for me, but I feel this is a matter that I can best handle myself. Please respect my wishes."
26. IMO said the following at 8:45 AM on Mar 31:
#25
What about in cases of abuse?
27. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:53 AM on Mar 31:
FYI, in my particular case parental involvement in my dating life was never an issue since I did not date at all until the year I turned nineteen and my parents and I had (and still have, in the case of me and my mother) a secular worldview.
28. Louise from Chicago said the following at 9:21 AM on Mar 31:
Comment 26, this thread hasn't really addressed the "abuse" issue in this matter.
What would you think should be the best way for the parent to proceed when he/she knows an adult child is being abused by his/her dating partner?
And by abuse, do you mean just physical or also mental/emotional?
29. IMO said the following at 9:28 AM on Mar 31:
Just want to quickly add to my previous question that I can (unfortunately)totally see a victim of abuse saying something like, "I know you want to do this out of concern for me, but I feel this is a matter that I can best handle myself. Please respect my wishes."
30. IMO said the following at 9:41 AM on Mar 31:
"What would you think should be the best way for the parent to proceed when he/she knows an adult child is being abused by his/her dating partner?"
I don't know. I don't have an answer for that question.
"And by abuse, do you mean just physical or also mental/emotional?"
Both, of course.
31. Louise from Chicago said the following at 9:50 AM on Mar 31:
Comment 29, and I can just as easily see a total non victim of abuse using my phrase you quoted.
I can see very easily a private adult child using my phrase to request that the parent refrain from questioning his/her romantic partner about "intentions."
Some parents might not be very good at questioning the romantic partner, despite they themselves (the parents) having good intentions.
A year or so ago, didn't Candice Watters make a post a while back entitled "So you want to scare away my boyfriend?"
32. Louise from Chicago said the following at 10:00 AM on Mar 31:
Okay, comment 30,the reason I asked if you just meant physical abuse is that several commentors on this blog have differentiated between the acceptable course of action for married physical abuse victims and married emotional/verbal abuse victims.
33. Jo said the following at 10:26 AM on Mar 31:
Louise #25 - A hearty 'Amen' to that, including your response to Tamara.
IMO #26 - Abuse would be the one exception to #25, in my view. But honestly, if abuse was happening then everyone close to the woman should be doing their part to stop it, not just the father.
I'm not saying that fathers shouldn't have an active role in their grown-up daughters' lives. I'm saying that when a woman becomes an adult, it is ultimately her decision to let her father directly intervene or not. Both should respect and be honest with each other, but it is her life, and her choice.
34. Craig M said the following at 10:37 AM on Mar 31:
I'm going to be honest. If I were dating an adult woman and her father "sat me down" to interrogate me about my quality, or interjected himself as a participant in the relationship, I would recoil. I would wonder about the woman's sense of self, her ability to think independently, and her suitability for a life partnership. I expect a loving father to offer his insight on relationships and analysis of me to his daughter alone, and then respect her enough to make sound judgments.
Maybe this makes me more of a modernist than I'd like to admit sometimes. Push come to shove, I'm not comfortable with the idea that adult women need oversight from their fathers. I don't find that sort of dependence attractive; I'd like to know that a woman has confidence in her own judgments and ability, and regards advice from friends and family as just that--advice.
I think it comes down to how much structure and hierarchy you're willing to accept. Americans are not disposed to accept very much of either, especially in their personal lives. Maybe we should discuss that topic more explicitly--how much hierarchy and authority should we be willing to accept in our lives, as men, as women, and as Christians and citizens?
35. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 2:45 PM on Mar 31:
You can say all you want that just because an adult daughter doesn't want her father to get involved at all, it doesn't indicate there is a problem, but, based on my experience (which is all I legitimately have to speak from) that has never been the case. And, even though I am an indpendent and rather private person, I would never inform my parents that they couldn't be involved in a relationship. I would obviously expect (and inform them politely) that they not be unreasonable and that they not sit down with my boyfriend and interogate him, but they would have my permission to be involved in getting to know him.
I don't know . . . sometimes I get the feeling that reading this that being independent means that I go on my own and do everything with no helps from anyone. We weren't meant to live like that! We were made for community . . . and that doesn't just include our friends . . . it should, in as many cases as it is possible, include our families as well. So, on that note, I will stand by my statement that there is no reason for everything about a relationship to be hidden from parents (especially the father). Depending on family relationships, circumstances, and ther seriousness of the relationship I can see the level and kind of involvement differing, but it would still be there.
--------------------------------------
Craig M. (#34) said:
"I'm not comfortable with the idea that adult women need oversight from their fathers. I don't find that sort of dependence attractive; I'd like to know that a woman has confidence in her own judgments and ability, and regards advice from friends and family as just that--advice."
-----------------
I guess I look at my father being involved in a serious relationship with a guy as being just that - advice. No matter what my father says about a guy based on his conversations with him and his insights on how he treats me, ultimately the decision is still up to me and the guy. And speaking from past experience (and I know I'm blessed in that my father is a solid Christian man), when my father gives me advice on something with a guy he has been proven correct in every situation.
I never once said that I would be OK with my dad sitting down and interrogating a guy I was dating, but I did say, and stand by it, that I am definitely OK with him taking the time to talk to a guy I'm dating.
36. Louise from Chicago said the following at 3:05 PM on Mar 31:
Comment 35, ma'am, what you are "okay" with in your own private life is certainly "okay" with me!
I just don't agree with your idea as expressed in comment 23 that parents should get personally involved in the relationships of adult children regardless of the expressed wishes of said adult children!
:)
37. Sarah P. said the following at 3:38 PM on Mar 31:
Ms. Louise, you are a very independent lady, and you also have a few more years' hard knocks than many/most of us here, I gather. :) In an ideal situation, with a dad and mom we can trust, it makes a lot of sense to let them quiz a potential suitor a bit. They have many more years of wisdom.
Personally, I would want my dad to ask questions, but I know from experience that my mom would take over and it would turn into a difficult exchange. So I definitely plan to keep my parents at arms' length -- out of necessity in a flawed situation, not because this is how things should be. I will "honor" them, but I don't have to "obey" them anymore. I'm no longer a child.
38. Jo said the following at 4:00 PM on Mar 31:
Tamara:
"I did say, and stand by it, that I am definitely OK with him taking the time to talk to a guy I'm dating."
Well yeah, of course. I don't think anyone's disagreeing with that. Getting to know the guy is wonderful. Advising the daughter privately is wonderful. But directly interfering in the relationship without the daughter's consent is not cool.
I agree with Craig, also.
39. Craig M said the following at 4:06 PM on Mar 31:
To flesh out my thought a bit more....
I note that we don't really have this conversation--not REALLY--when we're talking about men. That is, no one is writing a book about how Dad ought to micromanage his adult son's selection of a wife. I think the reason is pretty obvious--nine out of ten guys probably wouldn't stand for it, and most parents wouldn't respect an adult son who was so ineffectual and indecisive that he relied on Mom and Dad to make that sort of decision for him.
So what's really being asserted is that women--specifically--need the supervision. They're too (fill in the blank...emotional, vulnerable, weak, delicate) to deal with the difficulty and likely trauma of "courtship" or dating without male authority. Now that's a time-tested point of view with a very lengthy and reputable history. Most Americans in history and most people in world history would agree with that sentiment. But it's pretty harsh to the modern mind, including mine. I'm not a believer in outright "equality," exactly--I'm complementarian in perspective--but I like the idea of a woman who is adult, responsible, and equal enough to evaluate me herself. Have I watched too many movies? Should I be more open to a greater gulf between the sexes here? What do the women here think?
Of course, as a man, I do welcome my Mom and Dad's opinion. They're good people and good Christians who I trust, so of course I want to hear what they have to say. I'll listen closely. If they have serious problems with a woman I'm seeing--especially if they can make a coherent case--I want to evaluate their contentions. But it's only one data point amongst many, and I would never allow either of them to think for a moment that they had any sort of veto over my personal life. Are we saying that women ought to live differently than that?
40. Rachael said the following at 4:26 PM on Mar 31:
#14 "Basically, if he never proposes, I will figure that there was something wrong with me"
--> There's "somethingS wrong" with all of us. If he doesn't propose, it just might mean you're not right for each other, not just that there's something 'wrong with you'.
If your relationship continues on and on and you are dating to marry (dating with the mindset that you may one day marry, an approach which I recommend), I recommend you bring it up at some point if he doesn't. It's okay to clarify that point in the beginning or near the beginning. It doesn't mean you're proposing to him, but you're clearing things up and making sure you're on the same page. I really recommend this. It doesn't mean you're sure you will marry; it will clarify both of your intentions.
41. Rachael said the following at 4:40 PM on Mar 31:
I understand if a few question(s) would get asked at least of the man by the woman's dad or parents.
However, leaving decisions to adult children can be a nice thing, too. Perhaps it depends on the child.
Families and significant others can get to know each other more naturally and comfortably when just hanging out. At some point in time my mom gave me some ideas of things to ask about about the man who I'm now married to. And I know my parents went out with my now husband before we married. And he and I have spent lots of time with my parents and family members. But to my knowledge he wasn't endlessly/uncomfortably questioned (about intentions/me) by my parents. Maybe if he dated me endlessly and never proposed someone in my family would have said something to me or casually mentioned/hinted/questioned something to him in a friendly way...
Anyway, maybe at times it's good for parents to question the adult children's choices of potential spouses/dates, but I don't think endless or deep uncomfortable questioning of this variety is necessary in every case.
42. Mark said the following at 6:44 PM on Mar 31:
I find it extremely to note that no mention has been made of the opposite case...of a guy's parents questioning whether or not the girl is right for their son. I know that even though I am fully capable of picking out a girl myself, I will still want my parents' thoughts on her all the way through the process, especially my mom's, because my mom can see red flags I might not.
Also, I don't mind hanging out with her father in the least, but if I'm dating her, I want my relationship with her family to be like a family, not where I'm being treated like an enemy. Not that I've ever had to worry about anything in this department, but I do find the double standard interesting that somehow the girl is 'more cared for' than the guy is. But that may just be me. Personally, I think both should be gone over with a fine-toothed comb...the fact she is female does not exempt her from red flags. I've told my parents more than once about girls I've met and they haven't given me their spiritual approval of her, so I move on...they can see issues in these girls that I can't.
43. Heather Koerner said the following at 8:05 PM on Mar 31:
Craig M. (#39):
I'm confused by your comments.
You describe yourself as complementarian, so I'm assuming that you agree that the Word commands you to protect, provide and lead as a husband and your future wife to be a helpmeet and to submit to your leadership.
But then you "recoil" at the idea that a woman would also respect her father's headship of his family (including her) and his role as protector (including her).
You indicate that her respect of his role in her life shows that she lacks confidence in her own judgment, that she cannot think independently and has a flawed sense of self -- a charge most feminists would agree with, only they would extend your comments to the submitting wife as well.
So, I can't figure it out. Do you believe a woman's submissive heart only starts beating after the "I do"s? Do you believe she can cast off her father's protection and counsel and turn around to embrace yours?
In my experience, it just ain't so.
44. Kelly said the following at 8:09 PM on Mar 31:
Craig M - very interesting thought! If we are for equality in relationships then why do we suggest that women need a male figure to help them decide?
---
I always viewed the issue more along these lines: that young girls had historically been insulated from young men. They had no idea about male 'drives', no way to assess a truly charming man from one who was just being charming for ulterior motives.
(Women generally don't think this way, so it comes as a rude surprise when we first discover we've been 'played'.)
So it's for protection, and the older a woman gets, the more life experience she has, the less protection she will need because she can recognise these things on her own.
45. BDB said the following at 8:32 PM on Mar 31:
On abuse, do you want to "stop" it, or deter it?
I know a couple of people who married early to escape an abusive home situation, only to find themselves married to an abuser.
But they report that that physical abuse didn't start until after the wedding, so there wasn't abuse to "stop" ahead of time.
What you might see instead is the slow creeping controlling behavior, such as trying to isolate someone from their family and friends, getting mad if another guy talks to them, etc. I'd probably be more worried about the guy who honks the horn in the driveway instead of coming to the door.
I suppose if he made a comment like, "Sometimes you have to make sure the woman knows who's boss," that would be the time to mute the TV and say, "I'm sorry, I don't think I heard you quite right. What did you mean by that?"
It's probably effective deterrence to comment on a news item, such as those abductions they show on cable news all the time. A comment by dad saying, "If anyone had done that to my daughter, I would have _____" It's staking out a position, without making a threat.
Another thing I've heard from abuse survivors is that the guy said things like, "No one will ever believe you." This is particularly the case when it's someone with a facade of perfection, the church-going guy who can't control his temper at home. I've heard testimonies from couples that have gone through this.
What would a dad do to deter this before it happened? Maybe say that he'd always believe his daughter, no matter what. Even if he would really listen to everyone and find out what happened, it's probably a better deterrent to let him believe that she'll always have a father who will listen to her, no matter how outlandish the claim.
I dunno - I kind of put it back in he same category as telling your kid: never, ever ride with a drunk driver. I will always come pick you up, no matter what.
46. Tiffany said the following at 9:18 AM on Apr 1:
I'm with Craig on this one. I see no indication in Scripture that a woman is under more of an obligation to "submit" to her father than a son is. Children are commanded to respect and obey their parents. So this notion that a woman should start practicing submission by submitting to their fathers so that they can, in turn, submit to their husbands is off to me.
47. Louise from Chicago said the following at 9:26 AM on Apr 1:
Comment 43, the way I interpreted Craig's comments, I think he was saying he doesn't believe adult women should be under the protection/leadership of their parents in the same manner of children under age 18.
I agree with this idea.
Of course, I could be incorrect re Craig's meaning, but that is how I intrepreted his comments.
48. Jo said the following at 10:40 AM on Apr 1:
Heather #43:
"But then you "recoil" at the idea that a woman would also respect her father's headship of his family (including her) and his role as protector (including her)."
The father is the head of the household, yes. He should be involved in his childrens' lives, yes. However he should not have the final veto over their decisions once they're adults. I honestly find it quite hard to see how anyone could think that he should... perhaps that's not what you're saying, but in that case I don't understand what you're disagreeing with in what Craig said.
Also, this idea that it's primarily about submission to the father's headship is hard to reconcile with the view (put forward by Candice and others) that if the father isn't around, a woman should try and find a male substitute to take the same role in her relationships. Clearly in that case it wouldn't be about submission, it would be about support/protection. So which is it? What is the justification for the father to have that kind of influence and even control over his adult daughter's relationships?
I totally agree with your point in the OP that there are some questions that are better asked by a male 'protector' figure, whoever that may be. If a woman in a relationship feels she needs those questions to be asked, she should seek out appropriate people to ask them. But as an adult, it's her decision whether they are asked at all. There is of course a fine line here, because casual conversation and friendly advice is very different from an interrogation. One is appropriate for the father and mother and anyone else who cares about the woman. The other is appropriate only when requested by the woman herself.
49. Craig M said the following at 11:26 AM on Apr 1:
Heather--I'm not sure I'm "arguing" anything. I'm more ambivalent about this than I usually am when I take the time to write. That's why I actually ended with a few questions.
What I was definitely doing, I think, was making the implicit message of your original post more explicit. The language you originally used--"helping, showing interest" is pretty mild. But when one really unpacks what you're saying and examines it, it's clear that you're recommending a pretty radical traditionalism. And you verify that, to your credit, in your follow-up post. You're concerned that a woman's "submissive heart" won't come from nowhere, and so submissive conduct with respect to appropriately ordained male authority should be practiced even by adult, single women.
As I said before, most people in history would agree with all of that. It's the traditional view. I wasn't even actually saying that you're wrong--I'm not sure of that, honestly. I was simply remarking at what a profound departure it is from modern societal norms for Americans, even amongst professing Christians. And I was reflecting that my personal reflex at encountering that level of submissiveness in a single woman would probably be negative. Maybe that's the wrong reaction, which is why I asked the ladies here to comment. I do consider myself complimentarian, but I've always envisioned leadership and submission in marriage as more of a 60-40 or 51-49 arrangement, almost an agreement on a constitution between two equal parties. My sense is that you're presuming more of a systemic, orderly, disciplined expectation of submissive attitudes and behavior from women that transcends the marital relationship itself. And you're definitely presuming that women need the oversight in a way that men don't.
I'm not saying that you're wrong. Our great-great-grandparents were not morons, and they would have all stood up strongly for everything you've implied. I'm saying only that my reflexive reaction to the implications of your original post (and now your follow-up post) is negative, and that it's interesting that no one seems to remark on the powerful and serious implications of your argument for the status or "place" of women.
I'm interested in the best case for what has been suggested here. Do adult women need to "practice" submission to appropriate male authority (fathers) in a way that adult men do not? Do women need the supervision of male authority in the dating process, in a way that goes beyond mere advice? What is the reaction of the women here to those suggestions? My guess is that if women who read Boundless don't accept those premises, then the "paternal supervision" thing is pretty unlikely to catch on anywhere else.
50. skp said the following at 3:10 PM on Apr 1:
Based on personal experience- my dad got my sisters privacy feathers all ruffled up almost to the point of a divorce- I'd think long and hard before interfering with any life decision my children were going to make. Parents, even Christian parents, are not always right. Yes they have strong moral fiber, good intentions, and loads of life experience but there is still a possibility that they may be wrong about a situation. Besides being right if the (adult) child doesn't want to see it or hear it won't get you anywhere.
I think the "I suggest this decision is not a good one because of xyz but I'll always be there to pick you up" approach is the best.
51. skp said the following at 3:41 PM on Apr 1:
I'd like to add that if a child has shown a history of good judgement in the past, the parent should assume that any decision they make is appropriate until proven otherwise.
52. Craig M said the following at 3:47 PM on Apr 1:
Heather--also, not to be too personal, but....you write:
"Do you believe a woman's submissive heart only starts beating after the "I do"s? Do you believe she can cast off her father's protection and counsel and turn around to embrace yours?
In my experience, it just ain't so."
Are you sure? Don't you state earlier in this very thread that your father was not involved in your own marriage? And haven't you written before that you did not enter marriage embracing a submissive role? And yet you regard yourself now as a properly submissive wife, don't you? So didn't you experience the very post-wedding transformation, without the benefit of paternal direction in the courtship process, that you say now is unlikely?
Just trying to understand.
53. BDB said the following at 3:50 PM on Apr 1:
Great-grandparents...true story: my great grandfather gave all his son's girlfriends a talking-to about how it was unacceptable for them to interfere with their son's education. This basically worked out to getting married AFTER finishing college. 100% of his kids went to college. And this was in the 1930's, when it was much less common.
I can definitely see the concern from the other side. I have one parent who is completely hostile to traditional marriage, including the idea of mom raising kids full time. If I were to bring home and introduce someone who agreed with Boundless, it might get ugly. The challenge is to prepare in advance ways to "honor thy parents," but still be prepared to deal with any conflict should it arise. It will be important to draw firm boundaries that the parents will not be permitted to cross.
54. Heather Koerner said the following at 7:51 PM on Apr 1:
Craig M. (52):
Apologies. I've been over at Boundful. :)
So funny that you wrote what you did because I was thinking those exact thoughts (about my own history) this afternoon!
Okay, I'm gonna try to be efficient. Here we go.
I think my first post was probably a little too knee-jerk of a reaction to yours. I got the impression from your post that you looked down upon any woman who showed respect for a father's unique role as unintelligent, wishy-washy and weak.
I just wanted to raise a warning flag that though independent gals can come to embrace biblical roles (case in point: me), they don't always. So, though a female who respects the headship of her father will look different at 15, 20 and 28 (and will also look different once she marries), I would just encourage men not to write her off because she doesn't fit the modern "power gal" motif.
Second, I tend toward the idea of including a father (or father figure) in the courtship process falling more under "wisdom" than "mandate." I believe the biblical model for relationships is that the man inititaes and the woman responds.
As a woman, I can testify that it can be very difficult to be a "responder" in a situation that lacks clarification. A father/figure, IMO, can meet the suitor on his turf--an iron sharpening iron kind of thing.
Hope that clarifies.
55. Craig M. said the following at 12:18 AM on Apr 2:
Heather--that's very fair. I can't imagine anyone would object to a woman's thoughtful consideration of her father's offered wisdom. Personally, I think women do need it a bit more than men; but I love as an American that in the end she need not surrender her own judgment.
You're certainly right that one shouldn't "expect" a woman (or man) to change her (or his) views after marriage. I broke off an intense relationship a few years ago for precisely that reason. But if a woman tells me she believes in traditional marriage, I tend to believe her even if she's not self-consciously "submitting" herself to her father's will at age twenty-five.
56. Jo said the following at 2:08 PM on Apr 2:
Craig:
"Personally, I think women do need it a bit more than men..."
I've known far too many unwise men to agree with that.
I'm cool with the support/protection angle. I'm not so cool with the 'women are less able to make good decisions on their own' angle.
57. BDB said the following at 3:29 PM on Apr 2:
Jo (#56), perhaps fathers ought to be asking their sons their intentions, too. I actually think that does happen, particularly in families where the parents have good marriages. They may be a lot faster to encourage their kids to think things through and move forward.
58. BDB said the following at 3:33 PM on Apr 2:
Wait - I just realized that the entire premise of this post is that the guy is not making a good decision, and grandpa figured it out and decided to push.
59. Craig M said the following at 3:59 PM on Apr 2:
Jo--HA! I've gone from being the egalitarian feminist individualist to the troglodytic, neanderthal chauvanist! And attacked for BOTH on the same thread! Ha!
Women are (on average) more physically and emotionally vulnerable than men, and (again on average) more driven by emotion. They also tend to take the brunt of bad relationships more than men do. That's all.
60. Jo said the following at 1:31 AM on Apr 3:
Craig:
"Jo--HA! I've gone from being the egalitarian feminist individualist to the troglodytic, neanderthal chauvanist! And attacked for BOTH on the same thread! Ha!"
I know, it's kinda funny. :) I wasn't attacking you though, I just disagreed. Your justification is reasonable - that women are generally more vulnerable, I agree with. And maybe you're right about the averages - I do know several women who are driven by emotion, but I know quite a few men who are too. So I guess I just wouldn't say either sex is more driven by emotion than the other. In my experience, of course.
BDB #57 - Yes, I would agree.
61. Jo said the following at 1:36 AM on Apr 3:
Another thought.
In my experience, the people who I have found to be the most over-emotional, over-sensitive, needy etc have all been men. I don't mean I find all men to be this way, just that I have known at least 3 men (off the top of my head) who have fulfilled those criteria FAR more than any woman I've ever met.
I wonder if maybe these characteristics come through more potently in male/female relationships. All the afore-mentioned guys were guys who were interested in me, and I suspect those characteristics became much more obvious because of that dynamic.
Maybe the men who think women are more emotional etc have experienced the same thing from the other side?
62. Craig M. said the following at 9:26 AM on Apr 3:
Jo--what you're doing is arguing by anecdote, which is never very probative. No one is saying that men aren't at all emotional, especially in the context of love. But if you don't think that the average woman is substantially more emotional than the average man, I just think you're wrong.
Think about politics for a minute. Look at the way campaigns were run--advertisements, etc.--80 years ago compared to now. Ads and campaigns have consistently over that time become less measured, more designed to appeal to emotion and feeling, etc. Bill Clinton "felt your pain" all the way to the White House. Why the shift? The presence--and then growing importance of--women voters. Ask any political pro. Those emotionally oriented campaign tactics are designed to appeal to women. Because women find them appealing. Because they're more emotional.
Anyway, it's not that big a deal.
63. Jo said the following at 9:58 AM on Apr 3:
Craig,
Indeed I am arguing by anecdote. I think that's what you're doing too.
I think it's fair to say that women generally *show* their emotions more than men do. Perhaps we are indeed more emotional than men; I'm just not sure it's been proven.
There's also this assumption that emotion and rational thought are inversely linked - ie, being more emotional lowers your ability to make rational decisions. I would argue that both emotion and rational thought are important in decision making, and an imbalance in either direction is potentially a problem.
I think all of us tend to become imbalanced. Some of us put too much faith in our emotions, some of us not enough. Possibly there is a general gender split there. But because we all have blind spots, we all need advice and guidance in our relationships.
My opinion is that while women might need protection more than men do, both genders need guidance equally - although often in different areas.
64. Craig M said the following at 1:42 PM on Apr 3:
Jo--I'm not sure you know what "anecdotal argument" is. Making generalizations based on distinct, individual instances or individual people is argument by anecdote. "I know some guys who are more emotional than me" is anecdotal argument. My points are not anecdotal because they're based on generalized observations encompassing exceedingly large numbers of people, long periods of time, and large amounts of material. I invited you to compare voting patterns and campaign material over time, and inquire into the operating strategies behind that material and how they have evolved over time. That's not anecdotal--I've invoked too much material. If I had said, "I know these three women who vote based on emotion," THAT would be anecdotal. Just saying.
Proving how much people "feel" is hard because feelings are so subjective. If you're genuinely interested in the science, though, you might start by looking up comparisons between male and female brain patters, male and female hormonal differences, and very thoroughly documented differences in male and female behavior in response to similar stimuli. The studies are available.
As for emotion and rational thought being "inversely linked," there's certainly nothing to say that both absolutely cannot coexist. But as a general principle, I think it's fair to say that strong emotion--grief, anger, pride, joy.... tends to cloud clear thinking. Do you really think you're as rational when you're deeply angry or feeling "in love" as when you're coolly studying, undisturbed, in a library?
65. Jo said the following at 2:16 PM on Apr 3:
Craig,
I think this'll be my last one because I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. Perhaps I'm not explaining it clearly.
I retract my admission of making anecdotal arguments. I hadn't heard that phrase before and I wrongly assumed that you were accurately describing what I was doing - but you weren't.
I didn't make any kind of generalisation from my 'anecdote'. I suggested that perhaps the 'over-emotional' side of us all comes out most often in male/female relationships. It was only a suggestion, not an argument.
We are both speaking from our own experiences; that was my point. If you've actually researched all the political and scientific stuff, I bow to your superior knowledge.
I never tried to say that men and women are the same, or that they behave the same way. I never said that women are certainly *not* more emotional, I just don't think it's a given that they are. And from the 'emotional' angle, I confess I don't much care for averages in questions like this anyway, because they lead to assumptions about individuals that are often incorrect.
Regarding the original topic: Even if women ARE more driven by emotion, I don't think it follows that they need more guidance than men in relationships. Men need guidance too, even if for different reasons.
Thus will end my thoughts on this issue, because as you said, it's not that big a deal.