Practical Submission | Boundless Line

Practical Submission
by Candice Watters on 03/04/2009 at 8:00 AM

Monday I answered a reader's question about submission in the day-to-day decisions of married life. After I wrote my answer, I learned that the author of the question is married to an unbeliever. This adds a dimension that I didn't cover in the column. I'd like to do that here.

Ephesians 5, the verse I spotlighted in "Practical Submission," shows us how Christian husbands and wives are to relate to one another. But thankfully, the Bible is not silent on the situation where a believing wife is married to an unbeliever. 1 Peter 3:1-2 says,

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

Yes, submission is a hard word. Especially when you're married to a man who doesn't try to be an Ephesians 5 kind of husband. And it's made harder by a culture that redefines and twists it, then mocks it to no end. But it's in a biblical understanding of submission that lies the hope for an unsaved spouse. What joy to serve a God who inspired Peter to address women in that situation directly. And not only with instructions for following a husband's lead, but also with hope that their obedience to God has the power to lead their mate to eternal life.

(I'm in no way suggesting a wife should stay with or submit to a man who is acting criminally toward her. Such a man has already abdicated his role and responsibility as her husband. He has forfeited his claim on her as wife.)

Marriage & Family | Mail This | Share on Facebook

Comments

You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

1. Kate said the following at 8:28 AM on Mar 4:

Though your post here is about a believer married to an unbeliever, I liked what you said in your article about married Christians: "If, on such life-and-death issues, a couple is constantly in disagreement, I would suggest that the problem lies not primarily with submission, but with spiritual maturity and being able to discern God's will, and relenquish their wills to His."

2. BB said the following at 8:38 AM on Mar 4:

Also, you will note husbands are called to love their wives unconditionally as Christ loves the church. Likewise wives should respect their husbands as well. A common misconception that many have is that love should be unconditional but respect must be earned. I say no; both should be unconditional if you want a marriage to work. It is hard to submit to someone you don't respect so I think that would be the first place to start.

A couple of good questions to ask.

1) Would you rather...
Make the right decision on your own with out your husbands consent
or
Submit to your husband's decision even though it is wrong.

Neither situation is good but the question you should ask yourself is "What does God say I should do?"

2) Where does the husband's authority end as head? On Colonial.org, you will find a good sermon on that question (see bottom). It is also available as a podcast. An answer is the husband never has the authority to ask the wife to sin against God or disobey the law. Aside from that, I can not think of an area where they are not called to be leaders.

3) How can that work? The wife is called to be in submission or line up under the husband as the leader however leadership by the husband doesn't look like we would think. Remember how Jesus lead. He washed feet and he gave up his life. He was a servant doing what was best for the church. Wives will always need to remember they are submitting to a sinner but if that sinner is pursuing God, she will see a selfless attitude in him that will be easier to submit to.

xml site:
http://media.colonialmedia.org/Media_Feed.xml

Role of Wives:
http://media.colonialmedia.org/20090111-pm.mp3

Role of Husbands:
http://media.colonialmedia.org/20090118-pm.mp3

3. Matthew said the following at 9:37 AM on Mar 4:

Submission & headship are difficult issues, but when both parties are seeking to follow God's Word, it can be really beautiful and good. I have seen this played out in my parents' marriage and I am so thankful to grow up with a loving model of grace & love in front of me!

4. Jayme said the following at 9:41 AM on Mar 4:

I'm a little disappointed - I wanted to talk more about what this looks like practically in dating relationships.

Dating/courting is a time to find out if this is a man that I can submit to, but obviously, I don't have to submit to him. Otherwise, he could decide that I have to marry him and I would have to submit to that decision. No...he gets to ask me to marry him and I get to respond. But:
1) Do I have to submit to him in dating?
2) How can I tell if he is a man who I could submit to?

Practically speaking, of course.

5. Tiffany said the following at 10:36 AM on Mar 4:

I think Jayme asked some good questions, and I don't want to hijack this post, but can I add my own:

What does submission LOOK like? How does it play out in your own marriage every day?

My husband and I have a very egalitarian marriage. We make decisions together, talk things out, plan our lives while keeping in mind both sets of dreams and ambitions.
I'm curious as to what a marriage looks like, practically, when people practice this complementarian view.

6. Andrea-Elena said the following at 10:39 AM on Mar 4:

The book Rocking the Roles: Building a Win-Win Marriage, by Robert Lewis and William Hendricks, helped me better understand leadership and helpership. As a result of reading this book, I now wish that Christendom would stop referring to submission as the wife's role. Lewis and Hendricks explain that submission is not the wife's role. Helper is her role. Helping is her function. Submitting is her response to the husband's leading. (Leader is the husband's role. Leading is his function. Praise is his response to the wife's helping.)

If we say that submission is her role, then any time she is not submitting, she is not playing her role. But when we remember that helper is her role, that puts submission in its proper context.

When we look at helping as her function, we see that wives are freed up to uniquely use their gifts, talents, and skills in marriage, without having to follow some other couple's lists of "this is list of tasks a husband does; this is the list of tasks a wife does." As Lewis and Hendricks point out, the "Ozzie and Harriet" life is NOT biblical marriage. The so-called traditional marriage we like to nostalgically look back to was NEVER the biblical marriage. (The book's chapter about this is a must-read.)

So that sorta answers BDB's question 1. If a wife regards herself as helper and her husband as leader, then she won't try to make a bunch of decisions unilaterally. If her husband's decision is morally, ethically, scripturally wrong, then she is to obey God first. And then get out of the way... 'cause God's gonna smack him!! (*hat tip to Beth Moore*) If the "wrongness" issue is merely that she thinks he's making a mistake, then she ought to submit to his leadership... and let him (and the family) feel the consequences of his actions. Again, God's gonna smack him! (Maybe not so hard. Heh.)

So... practical submitting...

I asked a married friend how it looks in her marriage, and she said, "I wouldn't even purchase a lamp without my husband's input."

"Really?" I asked. "I would think that as long as you're staying within an agreed-upon amount of money to spend, then you're free to use your creativity and wisdom to choose furnishings and decor for your home."

She replied, "Well, the lamp's gonna go in his home."

"That's interesting," I said. "My dad could care less about the aesthetics of things. He just cares how much Mom spends."

"See that's the difference. My husband does care about how things look," said my friend.

"Well, isn't this an example of how submitting can and does look different from couple to couple?" I asked. "You know... like in some marriages, the wife is better at numbers, so she's the one who balances the checkbook and sees that bills get paid. In other marriages, the husband does those things."

I don't remember what she said in reply.

To me, her submitting that particular kind of decision to her husband's style of leadership is part of her style of helping.

If I were married, I'd hope that my husband would trust my decorating acumen enough to leave me to choose some things on my own... and to decide when to seek his opinion on my choices. To me, that is an example of smart delegation on the part of the leader. Well, MY leader. ;o)

I remember a prominent SBC leader's wife saying that she didn't want a dog but her husband did. So she submitted to him about their getting a dog, and now she loves the dog. Now... what if she HATED dogs? Would it be right for the husband to insist on their getting a dog, if she was going to be miserable with it in their home? Would it be right for her to try to change her opinion merely to line up with what her husband wanted? If one is looking at submission as a wife's role, then she's supposed to submit, no matter what. To me, that's a pretty narrow view of what submission actually IS.

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong issues... I dunno.

My mother does submit to my father's leadership, but it's not obvious. She's the talker and a pretty strong personality! So... you'd have to delve deeper to find out that she follows his lead on a lot of issues. But... that doesn't mean she's not going to prod him to do something that they both know is a right and good decision for their family! (I think she too often verges on nagging. No wonder he spends so much time in the basement!!) I don't know if part of the issue for them is their differing communication styles. But... they're still working at their marriage, imperfect as it is (as they all are), after almost 37 years.

So... what say you, Boundless staff and Boundless readers?

I would really like to see a more detailed exploration of leading and helping, submitting and praising. That way, we singles can recognize other singletons who show sufficient potential for being good leaders and good helpers as spouses.

7. Mrs. Spit said the following at 10:43 AM on Mar 4:

Jayme:

I'm sure others will be along, but. . .

1. No. Absolutely not. You owe him grace and courtesy. The same that you owe everyone else. If he is asking that you submit, he is, at best misguided, and possibly it's worse than that - on his way to being abusive. I would suggest that if you are concerned, you seek mature counsel.

2. Does he handle his responsibilities well now? Does he pay his bills on time, keep up his apartment or bedroom to a reasonable standard of cleanliness, treat what possessions he has with respect. Does he do what he says? Does he keep his promises? Does he treat others with respect and courtesy? Does he listen to those in authority over him like his boss or his parents, or does he grumble and gripe about how he knows better? Is he humble, does he seek the opinions of others to make a good decision, where seeking the opinions of others is warranted?

What do mature adults say about him? I'm going against the grain, and I'll suggest that if your parents have dysfunctional marriages, by all means ask their opinions, but find someone who has a great marriage that you respect and trust. They will have a better idea if both of you have what it takes to make it work.

And for what it's worth, in 8 years of marriage, my husband and I have never had a situation where we had to invoke his status as head of our home. We've always been able to talk things out and come to a mutually agreeable arrangement, which is a far better way to be married.

8. L said the following at 10:46 AM on Mar 4:

Jayme (4)
No! You do not submit in dating. I would also say, not in engagement. Until you have both made a lifelong commitment(namely a vow before God and family), you should not put that responsibility on him or take it off yourself.
To know if he is a man you can submit to is impossible. But you can ask, have i seen him interact with his family, have I seen his parents interact with each other, how does he speak of other people around him, are his words loving or full of contempt or pride?, does he care about what i say? is he open to a change or heart or mind? Ask these questions, and ask God, is this the man for me? And pray for him, that he would grow to love God and live with integrity. Pray for his emotional, spiritual and physical health and growth. Pray for his thought life and friendships, etc. etc. No man is perfect just as not woman is. Marriage can be a beautiful chance to learn to love, forgive, and encourage.

9. Tiffany said the following at 11:02 AM on Mar 4:

Andrea-Elena,

Wow, what a well-written and thought out comment! You're the first person to ever present the idea of leader-helpmate in a way that didn't seem to me to be confining and belittling to women.

Thank you! I'm definitely going to be thinking about the things you wrote.

And Mrs. Spit, if you don't ever reach an impasse that requires you to invoke your husband's position as leader, are you still submitting?

I guess because my husband and I have also never found ourselves at a complete impasse, I assumed that we were someone violating the conservative Christian understanding of wifely submission.

10. callie m said the following at 11:09 AM on Mar 4:

When my husband and I did our premarital counseling, we worked through a book by Dr. Ed Wheat called Love">http://www.amazon.com/Love-Life-Every-Married-Couple/dp/0310214866/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236189363&sr=8-1">Love Life for Every Married Couple. In this book, Dr. Wheat addresses the issues of submission through Genesis 2:24.

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

By looking at submission and headship through this verse, Dr. Wheat explains that it is the husband's role to do everything he can to make sure he and his wife are "cleaving" to each other, and it is her role to respond to his efforts. This was a refreshing way to understand our roles in marriage because it emphasizes the husbands responsibility to act towards the good of his marriage, and the wife's responsibility to help him in this effort.

As a new bride, I'm still learning what all this means, but I can tell you that I find joy in my husband's leadership in my life. It might be because I married such an amazing man. :)

11. H.A.P. said the following at 12:24 PM on Mar 4:

Well, IMO just because you have never reached an impasse does not mean that you are practising Biblical submission... or not.
I have been married for 1 1/2 years to a wonderful man with incredible leadership abilities. He has many responsibilities at work and at church. When he is at home he desires tranquillity above all else. Home is a haven for him and he loves his family. So, if we have a difference of opinion, he would a thousand times rather do it my way, than argue his point and cause disharmony. He is not domineering or have a temper. If you are married to a man like this, you have a gem, but what you think is compromise might actually be undermining him.

Do you have a strong personality? If so, here are some questions I have asked myself. I'm I hearing my husband out? I'm I always getting my way? Does he seem unhappy about a decision? Does he make decisions just to keep me happy? Was that compromise really a compromise?

12. BDB said the following at 1:16 PM on Mar 4:

Jayme (#4) here's one idea where it can apply to dating: let him plan stuff.

I've known a few women who insist on controlling everything - where to go to dinner, for entertainment, activities, etc. Disagree with them, and they explode. It's not attractive.

Part of what you are watching for is whether he takes your interests and concerns into account. If you're allergic to fish, and he insists on going to seafood everywhere, that's a problem. Periodically I get together with a few old co-workers. One guy is a quasi-vegetarian for health reasons, he will only eat fish. My old boss, who is an excellent leader, is always careful to suggest restaurants that have a good seafood menu so he's not stuck with salad.

I can think of one good example that resulted in a marriage. An old friend of mine grew up with a shooting hobby and was in the Army. His future wife hated guns. However, she was willing to go with him (once) to try it out. When he was discussing with me whether to propose, he cited that incident as really impressing him - she was willing to step out of her comfort zone for him.

13. BDB said the following at 1:32 PM on Mar 4:

Leadership in all settings tends to be something that grows over time. Let me share two examples.

Back during the Internet boom, a relative told me how much they had made on a certain stock. Their holding was now worth $200,000. Since I have some solid financial skills, I sat down and calculated their rate of return. It came out to 5400%. I called her back up and suggested that she sell at least half and take the profits and diversify the investment. She told me I was wrong, and that it would just keep going up, and did't sell.

She lost $140,000 before she sold.

I didn't rub her face in it or say, "I told you so." But she is a LOT more respectful of my perspective on financial matters now.

A guy I used to work with had an investment rule: if a stock doubles in value, sell half (to recover the initial investment) and diversify into other things.

A couple of years ago, he excitedly came into my office. He had made $400,000 on the rise in Exxon stock! He could retire early!

The next day, he came into my office much less excited. While he was in the hospital for emergency heart surgery a year earlier, his wife had sold half his Exxon stock. He explained it away, saying she was scared she was going to lose him, and needed to be more careful, etc.

But I noted - and pointed out to him - she had actually followed his rule. While he missed out on the run-up with the high oil prices, it HAD gone up enough before that to justify selling half and diversifying. She had submitted to his investment rules when he was incapacitated. He felt better - and I'm sure that recognizing that she followed his rule difused any resentment that would have come from missing out on those investment gains. There's no room to complain when someone is following your leadership and you get less than ideal results!

14. BDB said the following at 1:39 PM on Mar 4:

By the way, #2 wasn't me.

15. Laura said the following at 1:45 PM on Mar 4:

Submitting is her response to the husband's leading.

Andrea-Elena, I've read Rocking the Roles and came away less than impressed. While the authors had some good points, I had a big beef with them on an perspective that was repeated over and over and over: They present submission as a response to a husband who is fulfilling his God-given role. While that sounds really nice in theory, a marriage cannot work when either spouse doing what's right is dependent upon the actions of the other. It's no more right for a wife to wait for her husband to "do what's right" (loving her) before she'll submit/respect him than it is for a husband to wait for his wife to submit/respect him before he'll be loving toward her. Husbands and wives are responsible before God and to God for their own actions--whether or not their spouse is "acting right." As long as each is waiting for the other before fulfilling their own responsibilities, it's just not gonna work--you'll get a never-ending "crazy cycle" (compliments to Dr. Eggerich).

(Leader is the husband's role. Leading is his function. Praise is his response to the wife's helping.)

This sounds nice, but seems to complicate what the Bible keeps pretty simple. :-)

16. Candice Watters said the following at 1:56 PM on Mar 4:

Jayme and Tiffany, these are good questions. Thank you for asking them. I may turn them into an article for Boundless. But Tiffany, I have a question for you. What does it look like when you can't agree? How do you handle impasses?

17. Andrea-Elena said the following at 2:17 PM on Mar 4:

BDB (#14),

Yep, I realized that too late. Sorry!

Laura (#15):

I agree with you about the "crazy cycle." And that neither spouse is to wait for the other to do what's right in order to fulfill his/her responsibilities.

I do see that your concern about Rocking the Roles is valid; however, I don't remember the slant being there as you do, so I need to reread the book and see if the authors do imply the slant you've described.

I still think that the issue is not merely semantics... and that saying submission is the wife's role implies that submitting is what she is to do all the time. Just submit, just submit, is the message that is received by a lot of Christian women (whether that's what's being actually said or not). That's overly simplistic, really. So... submitting is her function... let's say that. Not just a response that is possible to her. I still say that helper is the better term to describe her role. And that word goes back to Genesis! =)

And props to ya for using italics properly. =)

18. Tiffany said the following at 2:30 PM on Mar 4:

Well, we've never had a big decision on which we've disagreed. We moved to Switzerland 2 years into our marriage and both felt really great about it. I brought up the idea of volunteering with our church's missions arm and he said he'd been thinking the same thing. We signed up in complete agreement. A few years later when I said I wanted to go to graduate school, he enthusiastically supported me and we moved to Washington, DC.

As for more everyday decisions, we seem to "take turns." If I want to go see a romantic comedy, he'll agree but next time we go to a movie, we see something more up his alley. When it comes to spending money, we talk big purchases over with each other and try to make the best decision for our budget. Neither of us ever just says "no" or just makes a unilateral decision. Does that make sense?

19. Laura K said the following at 2:32 PM on Mar 4:

I would classify my marriage as egalitarian (similar to Tiffany's). When we disagree on something major, we seek outside counsel - from our parents or a pastor. I think there's tremendous value in getting outside wisdom.

20. Mrs. Spit said the following at 2:32 PM on Mar 4:

Tiffany:

I am reminded of a verse in Corinthians 13 - love does not insist on it's own way. Perhaps it is this. When we experience conflict, and we are two normal people who have likes and dislikes, who were raised differently, so we do experience conflict, we work on our problems with one goal -

What's best for us as a family.

We have always been able to identify best for our family - sometimes it has taken prayer, hard discussions, and seeking the counsel of others.

Let me try and make this more practical. About a year ago, our first baby died at 26 weeks. I almost died as well. The decision to try to conceive another child was hard. Hard because it took us 3 years to be pregnant the first time, hard because I almost died, hard because we were still grieving.

My husband was ready to try again before I was. I could have said "alright" and gone along. But, there were medical and financial considerations; there were emotional health considerations. So, I listened to him, he listened to me, and we decided. The entire process took 2 months; it wasn't a simple or easy decision. But, in the end, we made it together, it was a decision we both liked and agreed with. More than simply going along with the other, we understood where each of us was coming from.

It's about not insisting on your own way. Both of us sacrificing for the good of our marriage. If I merely agreed to his decisions, we wouldn't always be doing the best for our family. If he insisted on his way, I could have been placed in a medically and emotionally damaging place. So, we hear each other out, we listen carefully, we talk about hopes and fears and dreams, and then we decide.

Together. One Flesh.

21. BDB said the following at 2:33 PM on Mar 4:

You know, outside of submission in marriage, there is a biblical direction to correct other believers who are sinning. In love of course. But here's how it might look in a dating context.

Say I met a woman who was working under the table as a nanny. Tax evasion is both a Federal crime and a sin. In fact, for her employers, failure to pay taxes for household employees is a felony because they are falsifying their own tax return.

If I were to outline to her why she needed to be paying her taxes, she might have several different responses.

If she were to change jobs to one that didn't engage in deliberate criminal activity and started paying taxes, that would be satisfactory. I would take that as a sign she would accept my leadership in the future.

Maybe she just didn't know. If she were to ask me how to file her taxes properly, I would be estatic.

But if she refused, saying I had no right to tell her what to do - it would be a deal breaker. I simply can't be involved with someone who is deliberately engaging in sin and criminal behavior.

My pastor has an example that works the other way. When he first started dating her, she explained that she tithed, and she expected him to also. This was long before either of them expected to be in pastoral ministry. But, he did accept her point of view, and one of the things he teaches in those men's retreat sermons is that men should listen to their wives because sometimes they have better spiritual discernment.

22. BB said the following at 3:08 PM on Mar 4:

@Jaime (#4)
You are not forced to submit in a dating relationship however its not a bad idea to start practicing before you marry. Becoming a submissive wife is not something that happens over night so practice does help. In addition, you may want to know how the man you are with handles his authority. Does he use it to lord over you or does he lead with gentleness and love like Christ demonstrated to the church?

While I was dating my fiancee, part of what gave me peace about asking her to marry me was her demonstrating her ability to follow her Godly role. It was just in little things at first like letting me pick places to eat or letting me be the driver on dates.

When we got more serious, she left her home church to be with me in my church. That was really hard for her since she was growing a lot through that church and she saw my more traditional style church as stuffy. Despite all her reservations, she not only came to my church but also joined me in the new members class. That was months ago and she has never regretted that decision.

She is willingly submitting to my authority now not only so that she can be ready to submit later but also so she can see how my leadership looks. She is giving me practice at being a servant leader. As I grow in that area, that is also giving her peace about marrying me. We're both happier that we've taken on these roles and I would suggest the same to any couple who longs for a Godly marriage.

23. Beth said the following at 3:15 PM on Mar 4:

I don't really disagree with the idea that the man is the head of the home. However, I see this role as more of a responsibility than as an authority figure. Like if you hear something outside, then the guy is the one to see what's going on. Some of the situations that were described in the article I really didn't agree with. Any major issues I think should be mutual decisions. A husband who wanted his own way on decisions like how many children you would have and how you would educate them seems more like a control freak. I have studied both sides of the debate. The people who think that the husband and wife complement each other get too focused on a do and do not do list. For example, wives shouldn't work outside the home, and the ways certain genders behave. Also, the people who believe in the equality in marriage position seem to push the 50/50 role too much. Honestly, I think the role of husbands and wives in the blble is misinterpreted by many people. I think the point of scriptures is that the husband and wife need to unselfishly love one another.

24. Heidi Marie said the following at 4:55 PM on Mar 4:

#22 BB - Thank you! I appreciate the thought behind the people of who said that submission should wait till marriage. But I agree with you, if it's not something you get used to practicing before marriage, your wedding day won't magically turn you into a submissive wife.

I also agree that a woman shouldn't submit to her boyfriend or fiance in everything. There are definitely things she should guard until she's married to him. But letting him have the final say, especially concerning issues that have to do with after the wedding (e.g., where to live) isn't a bad idea in my mind.

25. Candice Watters said the following at 5:05 PM on Mar 4:

Laura K, we get outside input too, in the form of mentoring. But someone still has to be responsible for making the final decision. Are you saying that if you disagree about something big, you then both agree that you'll ask your pastor to decide for you and go with what he says? I'm truly curious how this works itself out in practical terms.

26. Rachael said the following at 6:31 PM on Mar 4:

So far I've counted one thing as 'submission', and told him so. It would have been best if I didn't tell him I was 'counting' it as submission, perhaps. It was clearly a submission issue, at least or especially at first, and maybe even now (depending on what he'll decide). I don't really want to say what it is, but just that it was 'clear'. When two people differ in opinion, and if one 'gives in', the latter is submitting, I think.I think some things will 'just be clear'. I suppose in my marriage (only been married a little over a month) I'll face a lot more clear things.

But I think also a lot of things could be subtle. Ideally, I should apply 'submission' loosely to a larger context in the sense that I should always put his needs above my own, but I don't do that a lot.

Someone mentioned something about decorating....keep in mind, too, that you might be moving into a house full of stuff and a house that is already decorated. A tip for that case: art rotations and small touches can help. And moving things around in some cupboards might have helped me think I was making my mark...

27. Rachael said the following at 6:41 PM on Mar 4:

PS Just want to add that the Bible also says we're supposed to "submit to one another"...(not gender specific), in Eph. 5:21, right before 5:22 where wives are told to submit to their husbands...

Like loving others above ourselves and putting others' needs above our own -- the ideal.

28. beatrice81 said the following at 7:32 PM on Mar 4:

I've never seen any hard evidence that males have more leadership skills than females, so I'd be very cautious about automatically assuming that any given male would make a good overall leader. In fact, no well-run company or government in the world would pick their leaders based merely on their gender, so it's rather hard to believe that it would be wise for Christians to adopt such practices.

Margaret Thatcher, Hilary Clinton, Maddy Albright, Kathleen Sebelius, etc. -- there are many similar women with extraordinary leadership skills. It's truly hard to imagine that such accomplished powerful women would pretend to be followers in the presence of their husbands. They don't nor should they.

29. BDB said the following at 7:38 PM on Mar 4:

Incidentally, one of the most interesting things I learned as a new manager was how applicable the sermons on men showing leadership at home were.

I had a number of married women on my staff. It was interesting to see how they handled me when I made a bad decision.

Every once in a while, a group of them would come down to my office and say, "What you just told us to do isn't going to work and here's why." They never questioned my authority to make the decision, but they did take the initiative to speak up when I made a bad one. I sensed that they learned how to do this with their own husbands.

After working with this group for a few years, there was a day when they were adamant that I was choosing the wrong course of action. I was pretty sure I was right. The thought crossed my mind - I'm a Director, I can just order them to do it. The next thought was no, they're closer to the work than I am, I need to hear them out. For an intense hour we went back and forth. I pushed them pretty hard to explain WHY they thought it was he wrong way to go. It boiled down to rewarding some people in a different department who weren't pulling their weight and were trying to dump it on our department. In the end, they convinced me, we didn't change our policies. I went back to the other department, asked for more information (where my staff told me to dig), and the other department got quiet and stopped trying to shove the work on us.

But sometimes, they just went along with my requests. In order for me to move efficiently through my job, I needed things formatted in a certain way consistently. After a few years, I asked one of my employees why we were doing something a certain way. She said, "Because that's the way you like it." Oh. In that particular process, I didn't even remember asking it to be done that way, they had just figured out that I was happiest that way, and it didn't take significantly extra time or effort for them, so they did it my way.

Frankly, I hear married people talk like that all the time about certain things - whether the TV remote or how they like their mashed potatoes...

30. farmer Tom said the following at 9:53 PM on Mar 4:

28. beatrice81,

Bite my tongue. Grrrrr.............. (repeat to self), it's not worth it, it's not worth it,

From Kansas aren't you? Big fan of Tiller the Killer too?

A shrill voice and attempts to portray oneself as masculine do not a leader make.

Ephesians 5: 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church:

You may not think that any given male will make a good leader, but understand that God's plan is for the man to be the leader in the home/family. So if you decide to get married, you'd better find a guy who's leadership you can respect. Otherwise, you are disobedient to God's plan.

Will not comment on that shrill woman, will not comment on that shrill woman,
will not comment on that shrill woman,

Please find some different examples of "female" leaders, please, please. With emphasis on "female".

31. H.A.P. said the following at 4:18 AM on Mar 5:

IMO again, If you are both committed Christians, it is not in the big decisions that it is most difficult to practise submission. You both realize big decisions must be made with prayer and consideration of the entire family. In the end husband has the final say, but it is not taken lightly. (We live in a foreign country and our second child is due in a few months.) It seems to me it is usually the everyday decisions that leave a husband feeling disrespected.

For example, In some marriages the wife will have a dozen reasons why her opinion on anything is superior. Her husband, who may not be as nimble verbally, may only have two reasons. If you are keeping points, her opinion is always correct. There might not have been harsh words, but the husband goes away feeling disrespected. The wife thinks they talked it through and she persuaded him.

Another sneaky way of being disrespectful is constant questioning.

At work my husband hears a chorus of 'yes, sirs!'. He deserves at least as much respect from his family. My husband loves me sacrificially, and sometimes I feel like a spoiled brat wife! I hope as I learn to submit to him Biblically, that he will need to be less sacrificial!

beatrice81 comment #28- The Bible says the husband is to be 'the head of the wife' not because he will necessarily make better decisions, but that is the order the Lord set in place. I don't claim to understand it.

32. BB said the following at 7:21 AM on Mar 5:

Rachael #27 - The first part of chapter 5 is talking about Christian living in general. There is a clear shift from talking about Christians or members of the body to a marriage relationship starting at verse 22. If verse 21 was moved to verse 34, you could apply that verse to a marriage relationship with out question.

The Bible is almost always clear on transitions. I say almost because even though I can not think of an unclear transition, my knowledge is not exhaustive. You will see words like "therefore," "the next day," "immediately after," or a noun showing the focus has changed to a new subject as Eph 5:22 "wives" and Eph 5:25 "husbands" does.

Remember the chapters, verses, and headers were added later to make it easier to read. Letters written by Paul were to be read as a letter flowing between the chapters. Reading from 4:17 on, the first part of chapter 5 still seems to flow with that section. I suspect the only reason a chapter break was added there was to keep the chapter length down.

My understanding of the Greek is that submission originally was a military term meaning to "line up under." There is a clear headship/leadership with officers just like there is in a marriage. In verse 22's case, I suspect this is talking about two Christians who do not hold a leadership role such as pastor or elder. Would you agree?

33. BB said the following at 7:37 AM on Mar 5:

beatrice81 #28 - Its not a matter of ability but rather authority. If a cop pulls you over for speeding, can you assume he/she never speeds? Wouldn't it be hypocritical for a cop to write you a ticket for speeding if they have a problem with speeding themselves? No! He can write you a ticket not because he/she is better at staying the correct speed but because he has been given the authority by the government.

Similarly, the wife may be the better natural leader however God gave that authority to the male. To question that role is to question God's design. To disobey that role is to disobey God.

Are you willing to disobey God because you have more natural ability at leading or would you rather obey God by using that knowledge/ability to help your husband to be a better leader? You submit to your husband not because he is worthy husband but because God is a worth God.

34. L said the following at 8:19 AM on Mar 5:

Beatrice81 (28)
Oh, Honey!
I can't think of a place in the bible where it says that women don't have leadership skills! (look at Lydia) No one here has said that women don't know how to make decisions. Oh, no. Really what it comes down to is that God has asked us,as capable women, to GIVE to our men. Women can definitely lead. In fact, many women would be as good leaders as their husbands. But God has asked us to give them this gift. To help and encourage and challenge our husbands - and allow him to have final say.

#6
But, really, not buying a lamp for 'his' home - well, that is just wrong. It is not his home. It is the family home. Seriously!

35. Beckie said the following at 9:32 AM on Mar 5:

#30, farmer tom:
Condoleeza Rice
Michelle Obama
Sandra Day O'Connor
Michelle Bachelet
Golda Meir
Mother Theresa

Not the most helpful list, and not all the women on it are married, or leaders in the same way...but at least they're not "that shrill woman" :)

36. Kellie said the following at 9:58 AM on Mar 5:

Honestly, I don't like the word submission. And it means different things to different people. For some Christians they interpret it to mean that the marriage relationship is more that of a parent-child. As if the husband knows best and the wife is to simply go along with her husband's every whim.

I personally see my marriage as more of a partnership. As of yet, there have been big things I wanted to do and my husband was not willing or wanted to wait. I guess you could say I "submitted" because I didn't go along and do them anyways. As of yet there has not been a big thing my husband wanted to do, but I did not, but I hope he would also want us to be in agreement.

37. Sara F. said the following at 9:59 AM on Mar 5:

Here's an example of submission from my own life (my husband and I are both oldest children and both strong-willed, so I have plenty!). When we decided to buy a car, I did NOT want to purchase the warranty, my argument being that we were already spending more than I had wanted to to get a car in good condition, good make, etc. My husband and I went round and round. He heard all my points and was willing to do it my way, but then I gave in to be submissive (although I should've stopped arguing way sooner). Well, within one year, the transmission went out, and many other small things had to be fixed. It was a good lesson for me that even when I'm sure I'm 100% right (and even when I am right), I still need to be submissive.

Also, I think submission is an attitude more than a specific act. Yes, you may come to an impasse, but are you deferring to your husband's wishes on a daily basis? Do you seek to meet his needs before your own? These have been hard for me as a strong-willed woman, but I have found much beauty and peace in submitting! I can relax in a way that I never could before when I was trying to be in charge and make all the decisions.

38. IMO said the following at 10:43 AM on Mar 5:

"Honestly, I don't like the word submission."

Well, take it up with the Lord, then.

"For some Christians they interpret it to mean that the marriage relationship is more that of a parent-child. As if the husband knows best and the wife is to simply go along with her husband's every whim."

This has got to be from your own experience or something. I've never been around this type of mindset. Seems more like something a nonbeliever would say when the heard the word "submission," to be honest.

39. Tiffany said the following at 11:00 AM on Mar 5:

IMO,

I'll agree with Kellie. I've been in conservative Christian circles for 25 years (until very recently in fact) and I've often seen a parent-child approach to husband-wife submission. If not exactly taught, then definitely practiced.

Maybe the problem Kellie (and lots of others) have is with the English connotations of the word submission. Let's not be so quick to assume that her issue is with God's commandment.

40. Kellie said the following at 11:22 AM on Mar 5:

IMO: see comment #39.

I'm just not sure I exactly know what is God's command and what is human (or cultural) interpretation.

41. Jo said the following at 11:41 AM on Mar 5:

H.A.P.:
Your comments on this have been really insightful.

42. IMO said the following at 12:19 PM on Mar 5:

Tiffany,
Like I said, I haven't seen this with the many couples I know from church, including my own small group I'm in.
You are allowed to have your experience. So am I.

A lot of people have a negative response (knee-jerk reaction, even) to the word submission. That's why I suggest Kellie take it up with the Lord. The Lord wants to be sought. We need to seek Him in all manners. The bad experiences she's had do not reflect God's Word.

It's actually pretty dismaying to here couples have "parent-child" relationships. That's not how God created things.

Kellie,
If you don't know, have you tried finding the answer? God truly doesn't make things that complicated for us...though I'm sure there are books that say otherwise.

43. BDB said the following at 12:29 PM on Mar 5:

Sara F (#37) wrote:

>>When we decided to buy a car, I did NOT want to purchase the warranty,<<

Oh, that's such a good example!

I have typically been the same way, believing that if I bought a good car, especially if I bought it new, and took care of it, statistically the warranty would always be a waste of money.

However, the last car I bought I did, for a few reasons:

1) I tend to keep cars to 100,000 miles, and usually trade in when maintenance becomes a hassle.

2) For my last car, though it had less than 70,000 miles, I had spent $2000 in repairs in the previous six months. This really annoyed me.

3) The model car I was buying was a redesign, and major redesigns are more likely to have problems they didn't anticipate.

4) A woman I knew at church was struggling with her relatively new vehicle. Granted, it was a Land Rover, which is notorious for problems. But though she was in her late 20's, her dad was taking the vehicle in and negotiating with the dealer on repairs (again and again).

I thought, hmmm...if I keep this car as long as I usually do, I might not be the one negotiating the repairs. Better to have the warranty so the repair negotiation is less stressful.

So, it's not an economic decision. Then again, insurance decisions are usually about peace-of-mind, not pure economic decisions.

44. Tiffany said the following at 12:44 PM on Mar 5:

Well, IMO, submission in our culture tends to include notions of dominance, obedience, compliance, resignation, and inferiority. (All of those words were found on dictionary.com's definition of submission).

So maybe it's not abnormal that people tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to "submission." They are understanding it as they understand that word in their culture/environment.

We may know that dominance, compliance, and inferiority are not involved in the Biblical concept of submission, but let's cut people some slack when they react negatively to us when we use words like submission without being clear about what we mean.

45. IMO said the following at 12:46 PM on Mar 5:

Honestly, more times than not, I see the "parent-child" relationships with the wife being the "parent" and the child being the "husband." The perfect example would be the show "Jon and Kate + 8." But that's actually more on the extreme side. I stopped watching after cringing everytime Kate interrupted Jon and always undermined him, and disrespected him. Now for anybody who loves this show, I'm not trying to start a fight. So slowly back away. :P
Anyway there are plenty examples in real life.

In my marriage, submission isn't a separate entity. It's all wrapped up in love and respect. And it all starts with God. If God is not first in our marriage and we are not submitting ourselves to Him, then that's the biggest problem of all.

46. Victoria said the following at 12:51 PM on Mar 5:

I would say (and my husband would agree) that I almost always submit to his God-ordained leadership in our marriage. Before anyone thinks I'm tooting my own horn, I think a lot of it is just my natural personality, in a disagreement I'd rather give in than create conflict. However, this means that in the last five years I had to submit to some pretty bad financial decisions on his part. (He is a spender and I am a saver.) He really wanted this $4000 sound system, and I was adamantly against it. End result: he got the sound system. Then 2 years later he wanted a second one for our newly finished basement, this one was $3000. He was dead set on it and nothing I could say would sway him, so I just went along. Now last year, he decided to replace his 8-year-old car (still in great condition, and same age as mine) with a Mercedes, and one of the more expensive models to boot. Sigh... We did seek outside counsel in all these areas and even after being gently told that it wasn't a good idea, my husband went along and got what he wanted anyway. Those are just a few examples. So here we are now, taking home over $8000 a month after taxes and 401k, with no savings whatsoever, and expecting our first child. And I don't know what I'm going to do as far as going back to work because of his financial decisions. (He wants me to go back right away, and full time.) Sigh... I know that I should just give it to God and let Him deal with my hubby, but sometimes it's so hard. I don't regret submitting, as there was little I could've done anyway, but there were days when I was tempted to open my own bank account. Any advice?

47. Louise from Chicago said the following at 1:08 PM on Mar 5:

Comment 46, if I had a Biblical, rather than a secular worldview, a number of years ago I could have very easily have been in your exact position.

Good luck.

48. IMO said the following at 1:17 PM on Mar 5:

"We may know that dominance, compliance, and inferiority are not involved in the Biblical concept of submission, but let's cut people some slack when they react negatively to us when we use words like submission without being clear about what we mean."

Right. People. I'm commenting on what Kellie wrote. I assumed Kellie was a Christian and one that would understand that "dominance, compliance, and inferiority are not involved in the Biblical concept of submission."

If Kellie understands that biblical concept, then I don't understand why she doesn't like the word submission (in the Biblical sense). And that's why I say she should take it up with the Lord.

Any Christian that struggles with that word (or any other Scriptureal matter) needs to seek God. Yes I am just being general and not giving out any "guidelines" in the seeking the Lord process.

I'm not saying it's wrong to wrestle about an issue. Just don't wrestle it on your own.

49. IMO said the following at 1:23 PM on Mar 5:

Wow Victoria, that's terrible!

From what I just read, it sounds like your husband may be sinning against God and you. Of course I don't know the whole story but I'm just making this assumption based on your comment.

If your husband is sinning against the Lord and you, you don't need to submit to here. Period.

50. Jayme said the following at 1:53 PM on Mar 5:

I had forgotten that I posted this -- I meant to check back for responses!

I've been dating a guy for almost 4 months and it's pretty much my first serious relationship. I'm 29. I have the advantage of working for a singles ministry for college and young singles (18-35), so I've seen plenty of good and bad relationships - well, as best as I can tell from the outside looking in.

L (#8) - Agreed! My rule has been: I don't act like I'm dating, til I'm dating. I don't act like I'm engaged til I'm engaged and I don't act like I'm married til I'm married. Submission is one of those things, but I want to be wise about it.

BDB (#12) - I've made him plan practically everything! I actually feel a *little* bad about this. Just a little. In the 4 months, I've planned 2 things - both with my family...one was a wedding and one was his getting to meet them. We've been on almost 20 official dates and he's planned all but those 2. He always asks my opinion on where to go out to eat, but he usually has a list of things he's thinking about and I pick something from the list. And 1/2 the time, he's got the restraunts on the list that I've already mentioned in casual conversation!

I've also made him ask for my time. It's never assumed that we're going on a date each weekend. Nope, even now, he asks for my time to see me. Eventually, that will change, I'm sure, but for now, that's what he does.

This isn't me demanding any of these things - just me expecting them.

BB (22) - He's had plenty of opportunity to see me submit, particularly because of my role in the ministry - working under the direction of our ministry president. And with he and I together in our roles as co-leaders of a co-ed Bible study. Thanks for your words on letting him lead.

My struggle in general -- given that submission starts at "I Do", is there anything I can do NOW, as a single who is dating, to 1) practice being submissive and 2) see if this is a man that I can submit to? Meaning: that he'll take that role on and do it well and not just say that he will.

51. Louise from Chicago said the following at 2:23 PM on Mar 5:

See the lady in comment 46 is in a classic catch 22 posititon, if she submits to her husband she's a bad mother for working full time and if she doesn't submit to her husband she's a bad wife for not submitting.

Both biblical and secular people have a tendency to assume that if a household with small children does not have a SAHM it is always the wife's "fault"...no one ever stops to consider the possibility of a spendthift husband.

52. BDB said the following at 2:51 PM on Mar 5:

Jayme (#50), I think you're doing better than average! 20 dates in 4 months, that IS serious...

53. Texas Craig said the following at 4:00 PM on Mar 5:

Some people have asked what submission looks like in marriage. I can tell you what it looks like in my marriage (after 13+ years of marriage and feeling like I have a great marriage).

First, I have never felt I had a right to rely on the passage "wives, submit to your husbands." It was not written to me, because I am not a wife! The term "wives" is somewhat salutary--like in the midst of an email to many people, you address one person by name to tell them something specifically. So, I have no right to use the "wives, submit to your husbands" verse. Rather, I have my own verse directed to me that starts out "husbands," and goes on to state "love your wives, as Christ loved the church."

So, first and foremost, my job is simply to do my part and not lord other verses over anyone else, including my wife. I do not see Jesus using his lordship to force others to serve Him. In fact, to the contrary we see all throughout scripture that He humbled himself (Philippians 2; John 13:13-17).

Next, although I believe that I am charged with the spiritual leadership of my household, I also believe that one of the primary ways that God speaks to husbands is through their wives. So, I value my wife's opinions and trust that she is hearing from God. If we disagree, I try to talk it through with her to see if we can come to agreement. If we cannot, I ALWAYS defer to her unless it is an issue that I believe is critical in a spiritual sense. In that situation, I insist on what I feel is right. However, very few decisions are that critical. If my wife doesn't want to get a car, or a house, or a certain material good, then rarely could I justify going against her desires on spiritual grounds.

Lastly, communicate, communicate, communicate. Talk everything through in love, forgive constantly, and believe that you have no rights to anything. Instead, do all that you can to serve the other person. Then, the issue of submission does not even have to come up. It does not in my marriage, and I am no wilting lily. My wife would be the first one to tell you that I have a very dominant and outspoken personality. But, by tempering it with a heart of love and service, I do not have to try to get others to submit to me. Rather, submission does not even become an issue.

54. BDB said the following at 4:00 PM on Mar 5:

Victoria (#46) I agree with IMO (#49)

One of our pastors described a similar situation his own life once:

He had a really nice, expensive, dualie truck. He and his wife were both working. They were trying to figure out how she could stay home with the kids. One day, his Christian accountant opened up the windowshade, pointed at the truck, and said that 100% of his wife's after-tax income was going to pay for that truck.

He sold the truck.

But it took an outside mentor to point out the truth.

I know that our newlyweds class at church discusses such issues. A number of men in our men's ministry would point out the same thing - part of Christian leadership at home is making good financial decisions; being a spender and thus forcing one's wife to work instead of being a mom is a failure of male leadership. But that message probably needs to come from a man he respects to hit home (as hard as possible.)

There may also be financial seminars like those from Crown Financial Ministries. These seminars can help get these issues out on the table so they can be discussed. The love of money (including luxury cars and sound systems) is the root of all kinds of evil!

And no, I don't have either a sound system or a luxury automobile. That's part of my rationalization in buy a new car instead of used...better to pay off a Honda than lease a Lexus...

55. BDB said the following at 4:04 PM on Mar 5:

OK, I'll admit that my Honda audio system can have an iPod plugged into it.

When the 50-something salesperson told me this, I looked at him over the top of my glasses and said, "I don't have an iPod." He laughed and said, "Neither do I!"

But, if I keep the car long enough to have a teenager, they can plug THEIR iPod into it I guess...

56. Texas Craig said the following at 5:09 PM on Mar 5:

BDB:

Your comments about cars makes me think about a joke my friend always plays on me.

He always tells people that we meet that he is a better steward than me, because he drives a Hyundai and I drive an Acura. What he fails to mention is that my Acura is 11 years old and cost me $9,000 used, while his Hyundai is a year old and cost him $30,000 new (it is a loaded SUV)! So, looks can sometimes be deceiving when it comes to stewardship issues!

And, in 3 years of owning my Acura, I have spent less than $2,000 in maintenance on it! :-)

(the transmission will probably go out tomorrow on it....)

57. Kellie said the following at 6:09 PM on Mar 5:

IMO,

I will freely admit I don't understand many biblical concepts, despite the fact that I have been a Christian nearly my whole life.

I will admitt things have gotten a little more complicated since I got married and became a mother....because Christians have lots of different views (and everyone believes they are right) on what that should look like. I do my best and try to follow my own convictions.

58. Cassandra said the following at 6:25 PM on Mar 5:

It's interesting to me how people are commenting that "if you're being respectful, healthy, communicative, Godly, etc." that wives won't HAVE to submit. But then what are we doing with God's commandment in Ephesians and Colossians to submit? Are we calling it a worst case scenario instead of a command from the Lord to be joyfully obeyed? Perhaps submission isn't just something that happens occassionally during a fight or a major decision that's a draw, but it's a way of life.

I am soooo looking forward to submitting to my husband someday. I practice submitting during dating and I look for a guy who's a leader, that I can respect. I used to have a culturally bound negative view of submission too, but in regenerating my heart God has given me a higher view of Scripture and I've seen the beauty of his design for the family. I can't wait to live it!

59. Rachael said the following at 7:58 PM on Mar 5:

re: #32's question to me,"In verse 22's case, I suspect this is talking about two Christians who do not hold a leadership role such as pastor or elder. Would you agree?"

I do not know, but I assume it would apply to Christians in general, including all men in authority and in marriage relationships. I do not hear tons about 'submission' (though I wonder if the topic is more prevalent in some Christian communities than others) but, my current take on the matter is that people should submit to each other, but ultimately the wife should submit to the husband in the big things and when there's strong disagreement. If the husband decides something contrary to Scripture, I don't believe the wife needs to be submissive on the matter. God is the ultimate leader.

And if a husband were to pull the submissive card all the time, I'd wonder if there was some kind of dominating control, lack of love issue at hand...

I don't think the submission issue should be focused on more than other issues in Scripture, unless perhaps that's really where the couple is having the problem.

#53 wrote:

"But, by tempering it with a heart of love and service, I do not have to try to get others to submit to me. Rather, submission does not even become an issue. "

I like that approach.

Ultimately, the wife and husband should think of each other. It doesn't mean the husband should always dominate, control, and decide every single thing without any input from his wife. The husband should lovingly consider the wife's interests, desires, and opinions. The wife should not have to be a doormat, but, in the unfortunate case that she is (and even if she isn't), it would be good if she could work on her end, just as the husband should work on his.

Like #53 also said:
"So, first and foremost, my job is simply to do my part and not lord other verses over anyone else, including my wife."

I like that attitude of placing a highER importance on working on one's own faith and actions (not saying 'no importance on the alternatives', though), and hope I can adopt that in the near future.

60. k. said the following at 8:52 PM on Mar 5:

Victoria - Yes: open your own bank account. And go seek advice and input from someone like a counselor. Good luck!

61. BDB said the following at 10:39 PM on Mar 5:

Texas Craig (#56) wrote:

>>(the transmission will probably go out tomorrow on it....) <<

Send me your address. I have friends in Texas who can arrange that...kidding! kidding!

>>And, in 3 years of owning my Acura, I have spent less than $2,000 in maintenance on it! :-)<<

Yep, that's why people aren't buying GM products. Even Japanese products built in the U.S., like my car, last so much longer.

My dad just bought the same make and model as me, but a two-year older used car so he can say he's more frugal. Thanks!

Of course, his Camry couldn't go out and play in the snow last Christmas because it was doing something strange, or too old, or some other excuse. At least I can put chains on mine. I actually haven't had tire chains for 15 years, and I finally could get some for this car.

What in the world were we talking about?

Oh yeah - the thing about cars is that the most economic decision is not necessarily the safest decision. I hate, hate, hate being broken down and unable to get my car started - particularly on weekends when repair places are closed. I'm finally spending the money so that hopefully it never happens again.

They used to say at car dealers that only serious buyers were the men who brought women with them to get their opinion. I mean, how many men are foolish enough to demand their wives submit and drive an unsafe car?

I know one woman who got one of those little Smart Cars. She fell in love with them when she and her husband went to Italy. Her husband even faked a business trip to drive it back from Arizona (he bought it on eBay) and surprise her.

I couldn't resist teasing her about getting totalled by a bicycle. She insisted NO! Mercedes makes them!

And wouldn't you know it? She was hit by a bus. I kid you not - a school bus right up by my house. She was OK, vindicating the safety thing. In a squashed golf-cart sort of vindication.

I'll have to ask her husband if he's going to make her drive an SUV from now on...

62. valerie said the following at 1:28 AM on Mar 6:

RE: Mrs. Spit (#20)

What a heart-wrenching experience. Thank you for bringing your perspective to the table.

RE: BDB & Farmer Tom:

I read this site a lot, but don't comment often...you guys always crack me up and I wish I could meet you in person! Thanks for putting in the time to make well-thought-out posts...well, maybe Farmer Tom's can't be classified that way this time. ;)

Re: the topic at hand...generally, my husband and I haven't had much trouble with this as we are both pretty easy-going and our personalities fit well into the complementarian roles. I do wonder, though, how couples where the wife has the more dominant personality work this out.

As in a post above, one of my best friends has struggled with respect for her (Christ-following) husband because she is in charge of the money, and he is irresponsible with it.

63. Texas Craig said the following at 8:07 AM on Mar 6:

Cassandra (#58):

I completely agree with you that submission is a way of life. But, I would propose it is not jus a way of life for wives, but rather for husbands as well. Essentially, it is the way of life of all followers of Christ.

For example, Ephesians 5:21 says "Submit to one another, out of reverence for Christ."

James 3:17 says "The wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure, then peace-loving, considerate, SUBMISSIVE..."

In John 13, Jesus tells us we are to serve one another. In Philippians 2, we are told that our attitude should be the same as Christ "who considered himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant."

So, I do agree with you that submissiveness is an attitude. But, I think it is clearly an attitude we all are to have, not just wives.

Having said that, it is one I struggle with mightily. It is easy for me to serve others and to not worry about pretense, but to actually submit is a much more difficult thing. :-)

64. IMO said the following at 8:27 AM on Mar 6:

Kellie (#57)

I truly do believe that, "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." James 1:5

[You can do a whole biblegateway search on wisdom... I just did...loving it..I have to restrain myself from posting a bunch of verses right now :P]

"....because Christians have lots of different views (and everyone believes they are right) on what that should look like."

Exactly. That's why seeking God and His wisdom is so important.
Sounds like you are doing that already. But going back to what I originally said, if you don't like the word "submission" then that really is something that needs to be dealt with, with the Lord.
I don't like to "love my enemies" and I really don't want to..
so I gotta go to the Lord and He always changes my heart, even when I tell him I don't want a heart change in the matter. Am I rambling or am I making sense?

65. elaine said the following at 9:05 AM on Mar 6:

Submission is a not a bad thing. In my marriage there are times when I adhere to my husband advice and there are times when he adhere to mine. There are times when I don’t understand what he is doing but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I have a degree in business, so I understand loan and investments a bit more than him. He’s an EMT so I sought his advice regarding safety and health matters.

The International Financial Meltdown came home to us. For example in the last year in Jamaica a lot of unregulated investment schemes collapse and folks lose thousands of dollars and even millions. He wanted to borrow a loan of over a $100,000.00 dollars to place in a scheme at an investment bank, which will pay 12 % per month. I call the investment bank but I heard a voicemail running for 45 minutes and no one answer the phone. I told him these people are not interest in our business, as they would answer the call. To make a long story short, he took my advice and did not take a loan to invest in the scheme. The investment bank went out of business, thousands people (including his friends) lost their investments money and owed loans to bank that they still have to repay. He told me if it weren’t for me he would be among the thousands.

Another time we apply for some refund from the government out here. He got his on time mine application was reject. I started to cry he told me not to worry we will get the money when we needed it most. I got the money six weeks later on a day when we need it most, as out baby formula and diaper have finished.

Sometimes submission required challenges beyond yourselves and need God’s help.
A year ago he mentioned that his car engine gone bad. We couldn’t afford a new engine (which cost $100,000). So he bought a second car for $30,000.00 to get the engine. He said the parts that remain after we took out the engine could be sold. We have been doing that over the last year and we earn thrice the amount we spent for the second hand car. I never like the idea, did not know how it would work but I’m glad I support him on it. God gave us as helpmeet to each other. I interpret it as away to help each other out. He told me everything and sought my advice. Sometime he takes it, sometime not, when he don’t, then he tells me why. He never laud that he is the man of the house and I should follow him. However, he looked around at things that needed to be down and lead out in them.

66. Cassandra said the following at 9:52 AM on Mar 6:

Texas Craig (#63):

I agree with you totally! However there is a distinction. God is setting up a gender-based submission structure here. Ephesians 5:22-24

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

The submission structure goes from wife to husband to Christ.

"So, I do agree with you that submissiveness is an attitude. But, I think it is clearly an attitude we all are to have, not just wives."

I agree! I don't consider this commandment to be chauvinistic, because we're all submitting. No one is left out. But I don't want to shirk away from the structure God instituted either.

67. Rachael said the following at 9:52 AM on Mar 6:

Yeah, I agree with others on here that submissiveness can be a way of life/attitude. That's maybe, 'common, nonthinking submission' or something.

Interesting that #63 seemed to see serving as different than submitting.

I wonder if the line can be blurry at times.

If you count them as the same, perhaps the 'serving' aspect won't always feel like 'submitting', but, I think submitting is just more plum obvious to me when two disagree and one gives in.

Then there are the no-brainer submission things...perhaps this type of invisible submission looks differently depending on the couple. For me a no-brainer submission would be to not seek out a job in a different (nearby) location than where we live and make my husband follow. It's no-brainer for me though because I absolutely have no desire to do that. But for some women who really have awesome careers or other commitments and if the husband doesn't want to go where the woman is, then that might be a very real hard submission issue for her.

Perhaps submission has a lot of different hats...no-brainers, gut-wrenching, daily service....

Perhaps the first and last types can be performed by both the husband and the wife, and perhaps some daily service tiny things could feel gut-wrenching, but if the decisions are gut-wrenching huge ones, perhaps the wife is supposed to be the submissive one in these areas.

It seems people are commenting about dating & submission.It might be convenient for the guy to frequently think of dating places for the guy and girl if it fits their personality types. But even then, I think it would be good if the guy could consider the woman highly in his decision making. And I don't think submitting has to mean having no opinion. I think I used to be a "nandemo ii" person (anything is okay) to at least some extent. And I think if I were in group situations where one person decided on a restaurant and the rest followed, I probably wouldn't be that person unless no one else was saying a peep. It can be convenient not to make decisions that affect another/group.

At the same time, I don't know that calling a situation where the guy is deciding everything in the dating stage and the woman follows a submission issue is necessarily correct. It might be more related to the personalities and convenience. But I suppose if the woman were always protesting with the decisions it might give hints to her character. Ideally both people should consider each other. I'd think it would be okay if both people would contribute ideas for the dating stage. Of course if the guy decides things a lot, that could be good in the sense that the woman would know he has some decisive capabilities and isn't as wishy-washy, 'nandemo ii'ish all the time. It can be nice and relaxing for the guy to decide things. But it would be good for both people to be considered, and it's okay for the woman to have opinions and share them if it's not done in a sinful way.

68. Rachael said the following at 10:37 AM on Mar 6:

(oops, 'nearby' doesn't fit into where it's placed in comment #67 so nevermind. Was confusing thoughts or meaning 'not nearby'...)Regardless I wouldn't make my husband move anywhere based on where I end up working, against his will.

69. Tiffany said the following at 11:01 AM on Mar 6:

Rachael said: "it's okay for the woman to have opinions and share them if it's not done in a sinful way."

Is there a specifically sinful way for a woman to have and share an opinion that wouldn't equally be sinful if held/done by a man?

70. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:16 AM on Mar 6:

Along the lines of submissiveness being a way of life, I think we can see that in the life of Mary (the mother of Jesus). She submits to the (really difficult) life to which she's called when an angel appears first, and then to her husband later when he says "we're going to Egypt! Tonight! With a young baby!" It would have been so easy for her to object to such a radical step, done on the basis of some dream only Joseph had had.

I guess that sort-of indicates what to do before marriage, too: Mary was already following God, and (presumably) this was one reason God chose her and sent Joseph her way. Incidentally, he (Joseph) was also following God in not leaving her (really difficult), and in lots of other ways we see later.

Tangentially, I'm not sure how many women say the "obey" part of the traditional marriage vows these days, but that must modify things a bit: there are no exceptions in that vow (or any of the others) . . .

71. Jayme said the following at 11:19 AM on Mar 6:

Rachael - #67
My boyfriend loves to eat out. Just loves it. Luckily, I like it too - maybe not to the extent that he does, but still, it's fun. The way it's been working for us is that he usually has a list of places that he's been thinking about and then I'll "veto" one of them if I don't feel like one of them. Or I'll just pick one of them. Or if I truly have no preference, then I tell him that too. A few times, he's given me a list of places that he already knows are my favorite/that I like.

I'm learning that with guys (or at least my guy) - they really want to make us (or at least me) happy...and if it's in his power to do that, then he will. I think that's one of the reasons that I think (at this stage of the game) that I could submit to him. He definitely keeps my best interests in mind. But I do wonder if there are things that I should be looking for that I don't know to look for. It's one thing for me to know that he likes to make me happy when it's possible and right to do so, but does that mean that he'll be a good leader in other things? What should I look for? And what should I do as a dating person to see those character qualities?

For me - right now - I've made him lead. Not by verbally asking him to, but just expecting it. We just held hands for the first time last weekend. After 3.5 months of dating. After he asked me over dinner if he could. Yes, I could've offered my hand anytime over the last 3.5 months or I could've asked him if that was okay - I knew it didn't violate either of our physical boundaries. But instead, I waited (even though I wanted to hold his hand badly - even a couple of months ago) and waited for him to initiate. Nothing we've done in our relationship has been initiated by me (except for the 2 family events I've invited him to).

So...if letting him plan dates isn't an act of submission (and I kind of agree that it isn't)...are there acts of submission in dating? What are they?

72. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:39 AM on Mar 6:

Victoria (46): I shall pray for you both (all?). I have seen this sort of thing before, and successfully counselled at least one young men to avoid just this. However, you're in the middle of it, so it's a bit late to avoid :(

One piece of advice: act how you feel. Cry when it hurts you to go to work, or see bills pile up, or whatever. Submission is not intended to force you to deny what you feel, and simply pretending you're happy when you're being torn up inside is almost always a bad idea! You may have to go out to work, but it will do little good to hide the resulting tears (if there are any - it may work out better than that).

Note that I'm not advising you on what you should "do" - you would be well advised to take lightly any such advice from people who won't be there to hold and comfort you when life gets tough . . .

73. Victoria said the following at 1:20 PM on Mar 6:

Thank you to everyone who took time to comment on my situation, I was very much encouraged by your words. Thank you particularly for pointing out that as far as mothers staying home with the children go, sometimes it is the husband who is adamantly against it. Thanks also for the statement that being a spendthrift and therefore forcing your wife to work when she'd rather be home with the babies is a failure of male leadership. (I think that my husband should hear that from someone else and not me -- it would deeply wound him if I said to him that he was a failure as a leader!) To clarify, he is a good man who earnestly desires a growing relationship with God, and his quickness to spend money also means he is a faithful tither, a generous giver to others in need, always picks up the check when dining out with others, etc. He realizes that he has made money mistakes in the past and we both agree that this needs to change. I pray that once our baby is here, his attitude about money will change drastically. Thanks again!

74. Rachael said the following at 4:25 PM on Mar 6:

Tiffany,

Possibly not, unless it involved doing it in a way that said, "I get the final word" whereas if a man conveyed that feeling through his words it might be okay...?

Jayme,

Cool (about your first paragraph). And about "He definitely keeps my best interests in mind.": awesome! About planning dates, I don't have experience dating many different people, and I don't really know if it frequently falls into the submission category, though at times it likely could. With my husband, when we were dating and unmarried, he would often hang out 'in my world', and I in his. It just worked that way, and he doesn't have family in the state but I do, and a lot of time was spent with mine. I think if the girl has ideas and things going on in her life it's okay to share them and invite the boyfriend and that that doesn't mean that she'll not be submissive in marriage or that he won't show leadership. My husband is leader-y and strong. I hope over time God cultivates in me an attitude of unconscious, joyful, healthy submission [in the sense of putting him above me, or if I can, close to that].

75. Craig M said the following at 5:24 PM on Mar 6:

I'm just going to say it. There is a LOT of equivocation on this issue based on nothing. No one in the church advocates wife-beating and such behavior is universally regarded as criminal and aberrant in modern society. Yet Christian circles manage to spend about 80% of all time spent discussing "submission" cautioning against criminal excesses of authority by men.

The language and overall context of these instructions are really clear and simple. With all the necessary caveats--abuse is wrong, husbands should love, etc.--it is traditional, historical and biblical Christian teaching that wives should obey their husbands. While each partner is of equal value, the order of Christian marriage is not egalitarian. It's interesting to me how desperate folks are to downplay that, especially given how determinedly we all dig our heels in against "the culture" on other matters.

By the way, I don't understand the hostility occasioned by the word "obey" that appears in traditional wedding vows as the colloquial and common way to express "submit." I've taken an oath three times to "obey" those officers appointed over me in the military. My Commanding Officer and I are still equals as citizens and people, but in the military context I obey him as a matter of my oath. I'm not offended by the fact, and I don't think the word implies any infantalization of the obedient party.

76. BDB said the following at 5:46 PM on Mar 6:

Someone asked about how it works with powerful personalities. Well, my grandparents fit into that category. They way they do it is to divide up the world, and each of them gets to control half the world.

There are specific areas where they defer to each other. Interestingly enough, they decided to live on my grandfather's income (and garden) and used my grandmother's less-constant income (as a nurse) to travel the world. Keep in mind that because they were on a farm, the boys always had chores and FFA to keep them out of trouble.

During WWII my grandmother wasn't working with a new baby and people came to them and said hey, there's a nursing shortage, we need her to work at the hospital. So my grandfather worked 7a-2p at the school, she worked 2p-12mid at the hospital, and someone watched the baby for 2 hours. They didn't see each other awake for a few years, but it worked.

Sometimes there's a conflict. At age 90, at the retirement home, they got sick of not having a view. My grandmother wanted to put a sun room in so they could see out further. It's like a huge bay window you can sit in. It cost $20,000 and they were renting the place. My grandfather dug in his heels. For a couple of weeks my dad and uncles were all uptight because the weren't talking to one another.

Finally, a compromise was reached. They got the sunroom, and my grandfather spent $20,000 to replace the car. Yep, they still drive.

And now everybody is happy - the sunroom is a great place to play board games, it looks out on the grass and road so they can see the world go by (when they lived on the island they could watch boats go by all the time.) And the car - well, I don't expect them to need another car. They're 93 now.

But each of them knows precisely where the boundary is, an in the other's area they respect the other's decisions. The yard is 100% my grandfather's decision, decorating inside is 100% my grandmother, the split the kitchen 50-50 (grandpa is a better cook), and so on. What's more, they've always been so involved in stuff that they each had outside volunteer and work activities where they were the leader, so they both had lots of opportunities for leadership.

Grandma was the better lobbyist with the state legislature...I didn't realize how good until I visited the governor's office at age 15 and they said, no, he wasn't available. I left a note and got a handwritten response from the governor next week saying he was sorry I didn't come by again...and say hi to your grandparents...

77. Samaria said the following at 10:40 PM on Mar 6:

Craig M 75 said, "I don't understand the hostility occasioned by the word 'obey'..."

I'm not a wife and I won't be even engaged for quite a few years (at least), but I think I can understand that hostility, because it strikes a chord in me - and others - that goes far beyond a marital relationship and into women being treated with respect and dignity. I don't claim to know even half of submission, and as I'm only 15 marital relations (rightfully) elude me, but I'll try.

I think the issue so many women have with the word "obey" is that it automatically conjures up an image of a father-daughter relationship: loving, understanding, and respectful, but ultimately it is clear who is The Boss and who is The Offspring. I don't know how it works in other families, but in mine my father clearly values my opinion, and yet he still holds the power of veto (in so many words). He doesn't want me to spend my undergrad years in NYC, and so I crossed NYU and Columbia off of my list. It's his way I must follow and there isn't any question about it, even though my father does take my desires into account.

In a marital relationship, women desire to be treated as an equal. As far as I can tell, based on what I've seen, a wife earnestly desires not to be subjected to the same kind of relationship she shared with her father. She'd like an equal share in the decisions and the planning; she'd wants to know and be assured of the fact that her marriage is not "her ---> him" but "you and me ----> (doing the best for) us." She wants compromise as much as possible, with both sides giving in an equal amount. As much as people say that submission is beautiful, the fact remains that each and every definition of submission out there includes "to yield; to give up" and that implies that someone in the relationship (that being her, the wife) is going to have to defer in a partnership she thought was supposed to be equal. Instead of being co-workers, all of a sudden she finds herself a regular worker listening to The Boss. In many a person's eyes, that view is quite ugly and very demeaning.

Hence the hostility to the word "obey." What I believe women's thoughts tend to be about the word "obey" is, "This is what he wants, so I look to Jesus and learn to be content" instead of "We talked it over and we decided on the best possible action."

I don't claim for this response to be Biblical (maybe it isn't; I have no clue), only honest. I only wish to explain how this looks from a female outsider's view. This is the best way I can explain it and I have nothing more to say, so I'll be backing away slowly now.

Respectfully,

Samaria

78. em said the following at 12:19 AM on Mar 7:

BDB, your grandparents sound like an awesome couple - even if they still sin against each other from time to time. I like the way you describe dividing up responsibilities. Handled with grace and charity, that can be a really neat way to handle marriage as a partnership. And, partnership is what I want in marriage. I know complementarians don't like their relationships being characterized as parent/child. And egalitarians don't like theirs being characterized as 50/50 business arrangements. Frankly, both sound sterile to this single woman.

I've seen healthy Christian marriages that were complementarian and equally healthy Christian marriages that were egalitarian. And in every healthy marriage I've seen, love and respect cut both ways, self-sacrifice goes both directions and so does leadership and submission, though some people only prefer to use the words in relation to the behavior of a specific gender.

I don't like to get in debates about submission. One side tends to emphasize male abuses. The other points out that if the bible is comfortable with singling wives out with a call to submit to their husbands, then we should be too. Both have a point, but I want a marriage that's a partnership -- not about insisting on rights. I want a 100/100 relationship where we have equal voice and equally lead and submit and make decisions together overall. In practice, that may mean I lead more in some things and submit more in others. There may be times when he particularly struggles and my help is to carry him in a way that looks a lot like leadership on my part. There may be times when I particularly struggle and need him to carry me in a way that looks a lot like submission on my part. But this isn't about looking over each others shoulders to make sure we are conforming to subcultural expectations for gender roles. It's being a friend, a trusted companion and a loyal encourager to each other -- it's about being the one who picks the other up when s/he falls down and, above all, seeking unity in Christ, by whose power the three-strand chord of marriage is held together.

Someone will protest the hard cases, and there are very hard cases. All I can say for the ones mentioned here is that God decides the # of children, we decide on whether to use contraception together and neither should compel the other to act against conviction (for instance, if I believe hormonal contraception is wrong b/c it has the potential to destroy innocent human life, my husband does not have the right to order me to submit and use the pill). Major disagreements about schooling or where to live or work or go to church shouldn't be handled unilaterally, rather, they should be prayed through and then, if agreement can't be reached, I would want a give and take such that we each seek faith from God to defer to the other and do defer as God gives such faith. Sometimes I might defer to him; sometimes he to me -- but if we are both seeking to put the others' interest ahead of our own (which doesn't always mean doing what they want), then who is leading / submitting won't become a hill to die on. On treating the child, I would certainly suggest seeking outside counsel, but there are principles beyond a difference of opinion which should be brought to bear here. Because of the relational risk involved in the hospice choice, I would counsel that couple to go with the preference of whichever spouse desires more aggressive treatment because you don't want to live with blaming the other for the loss of the child. Life is so very precious and the duty to protect and care for our little ones could not be more sacred. Now, I personally would lean toward hospice and releasing my little one to the Lord if there is not a good chance of recovery. I think it is OK to try to lovingly persuade the spouse with a differing view of the theological and / or practical merits of that position. But, I think it would likely be wrong for either partner to insist on stopping more aggressive treatment if the other is not in faith to do so -- especially if that insistence is based on male authority.

just a few thoughts...

79. Rachael said the following at 10:44 AM on Mar 7:

Thinking more about submission....

An area has come to mind recently in which it's obvious that my husband's mindset and decisions are or are most likely different than mine, at least to a degree. (We'll talk about the issue more in person when he comes back from his trip, I think).

If the issue comes up again in the future, I know I should 'submit' in the sense of trying to accept the situation joyfully or quietly...or something.

He and I have different mindsets about it. Part of it I think is that he's older and has been free to make decisions as he likes (and we're newly married)- I think he feels more free in a certain area whereas if I were presented with the same opportunities I may refuse. But just because I may refuse doesn't mean I should expect him to do the same. Yet I can't help but wish he'd make decisions in the way I would. I may not be able to easily understand his mindset, but I should still accept what happens if what happens goes against my hopes.

I recently met with a friend and remembered back to a conversation we had. In the past she had asked me a potential question I could ask when dating: "How would marriage change your bachelor ways?" (not sure if she said the word bachelor) I think that kind of applies to the situation. And I think it's a good question that could be asked to both the man and woman during a dating relationship.

Not to put my husband down in this -- I am the worst one in our relationship, but, I just want to say that 'submission' or 'taking something joyfully or at least being okay with it' can seem hard or impossible when the mindsets are different and cannot be understood at a heart level. Sure, I can understand to an extent. But my heart does not completely accept it, and what it comes down to is at least my selfishness.

I think what I really need to do is try not to have certain expectations or hopes but it seems impossible as I can naturally have uncomfortable feelings about things.

I think I've heard the advice before about expectations. And it's so easy to know in my mind but feels almost impossible not to have certain expectations and hopes.

But my husband and I don't have exactly the same pscyhology or whatever, and that's a blessing in likely many ways. It's interesting to discover how we're different in that way. But also with that means I might hope he'd think in the same way as me at times when he doesn't. It's hard, but what it comes down to on my end is my selfishness and not considering him above myself.

A friend told me that her married friend said that marriage revealed selfishness, and I've heard someone say that about having a child. I definitely am aware of my sin coming out in our relationship pre and post wedding, and a certain area of me is more salient now. I didn't used to think I have a major problem in a particular sin area, and I still don't think that's the sin that is always most salient above all my other sins, but I think that sin is creeping up and mixing with other sins.

Perhaps somewhere on Boundless is the idea that that person at 50 years old or whatever is different than they were when they first married. They grew.

I really want to grow, but wish I could push a button and not have to put any blood and guts into it, but what good would that be?

But Jesus did say His yoke is easy and his burden is light. Although carrying the cross sounds so difficult to me, maybe if I actually pick it up He'll carry it for me and lighten the load?

If He commands us to do certain things in His Word, they must not be impossible to follow as "With God all things are possible."

80. Kyra said the following at 9:05 AM on Mar 9:

A Submission on Submission:
This is a (hopefully) short tale of my struggle with this concept of wifely submission, and where I stand today.

In college another egalitarian friend and I looked up the original Greek to see if we could find any "submission" loopholes but lo and behold, there have been no mistranslations over the years. The passage means what it means and that is how we would have to take it. You know the expression "the only way around is through"...

In college I learned from my mother (a born leader and career administrator) that she practiced wifely submission in my parents' marriage on a daily basis. This revelation shocked me, coming from a woman whom I had always thought was used to "getting her way" She also showed how over the years some major decisions he made that she felt were mistakes from a practical standpoint actually turned out to be integral to the health of their marriage.

Now as a single adult with many married friends and relatives, I often see how marriages are strained to near ruin by the following dynamic, known as "superwoman wives/mothers become enablers to ambivalent, slacker husbands" This is not one case profile, but a consistent pattern I see around me.

Some recent revelations on the subject that have helped me (many from this website!) are:
1) "the submissive Christian wife" is not a personality type but rather defines a set of obligations to which all women are called. I can be that wife without losing "myself" or needing a lobotomy.

2)The passage doesn't say "all women must submit to all men and only speak when spoken to and don't make direct eye contact.." It says "wives, submit to your husbands." If, as a woman, I can't imagine ever submitting to a certain man then...I have the choice not to marry him!

3) Don't underestimate the power of prayer. Too often we view "power" in a marital relationship as a pie in which each spouse should get a 50% stake. The truth is God has all the power. Society would tell me I can exercise equality as a woman by getting my way and winning an argument. But my faith tells me if I genuinely feel that my husband is about to make a wrong decision with truly disastrous consequences, rather than argue with him I should consider the power of prayer at my disposal. My ability to pray to God that He gives my husband the ability to discern the right path.

81. Don Johnson said the following at 9:13 AM on Mar 9:

In reading a few of these posts, I think that some may be confusing submission with something else, like obedience or compliance, but submission does not necessarily imply either of these. It is important to see that Daniel, for example, was submissive to the king but did not always obey the king or comply with the king's commands.

82. Kyra said the following at 9:21 AM on Mar 9:

Egalitarian vs. Complementarian??

Maybe this is really a post starting a whole other thread, but after reading others' responses I'm..well..confused about what I am. I've always thought I was an egalitarian because I believe things like it's okay for a wife to work outside the home, for men to be stay at home dads, for wives to earn more, etc.

But after reading some of the examples above I can honestly say if I were in a situation where my husband and I disagreed on something major, I would basically do whatever he felt was right! Now, what I say may be taken with a grain of salt since I'm not actually married, but some examples would be:

--I do have a sick son who's had major surgeries and I've had to make numerous medical decisions for him. In the future if my husband and I disagreed on a course of treatment, I would do whatever he felt was right.

--I'd let him make the final decision in major matters such as where to live, how many children to have, whether or not to adopt, whether or not he or I should take a certain job....

All with my input of course, but in the end I feel the final decisions should be my husband's. While I certainly feel it's important that he know my opinion and that I pray for him to have Godly wisdom, I ultimately don't see how a marriage can function if every decision is debated endlesly. Does this actually make me a complementarian?? What are the distinctions?

83. Christina (in green) said the following at 4:27 PM on Mar 10:

#82 (and some of the others...),

Egalitarian essentially is the splitting of responsibility to equal shares. 50/50 split on everything, from outside work to housework, decision-making, you name it...equal share and responsibility.

Complementarian is each person has their own strengths and weaknesses and their roles are defined by those in the work involved in the marriage.

Neither one really deals with submission.

Currently, I'm in an egalitarian relationship. We both work. We both have household chores. We both have our own bank accounts. Most of this is simply because life hasn't really demanded otherwise.

Soon, it will. My strengths reside in homemaking and child-care (thanks to my mom). His strengths revolve around a likeable personality and an incredible work ethic and the amazing ability to compartmentalize (something that eludes me and makes my work-life miserable).

When the time comes, we will be complementarian.

However, through all of it, my husband is the leading authority in the home. There's no question about it.

I've seen Wife-Swaps (yeay TLC) where the complementarian roles were reversed. But the wife was still completely willing to submit to her husband's decisions. It was a very unique family dynamic and I loved it. She respected her husband and never usurped his leadership, but he had trouble exerting his leadership and voicing what he wanted. It was their personalities. It was honestly pretty cool.

What Samaria said about obedience was very well said =p I had that issue, to. I'm not quite certain what prompted the attitude shift, but I think a lot of it has to do with TRUST.

Trust that God's plans are best and trust that my husband will put our family's well-being above his own personal wants.

84. Historyloveralways said the following at 6:05 PM on Mar 10:

The word "head" used in Ephesians 5:23 did not connote "leader" or "authority" in the original Greek. If you check the Liddell Scott lexicon for the Greek word Kephale (translated as head in Eph. 5:23) you will see there is no entry for leader or authority. If you want to know what "head" means in this instance, you don't have to look far. For verse 23 defines what head means. It says "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior" That is what it means for a husband to be head of his wife. He is not her leader or her authority. He is her head as Christ is of the church, meaning he is in a figurative sense the savior of his wife. Look at the Liddell Scott lexicon, there is no entry for kephale (head) that indicates either leader or authority.

In Eph. 5:21 christians are told to submit to one another. In the next verse it tell wives to submit to their husbands. These two verses are one thought. Wives are to submit to the husbands and Christians are to submit to one another. Are Christians being told to submit to each other's authority. No, they are being told to submit to each other's welfare. In the same way wives are being told to submit to their husband's welfare, not to his leadership or authority.

See kephale at the Liddell Scott lexicon at:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2356992

85. tiro said the following at 8:49 PM on Mar 10:

” Egalitarian essentially is the splitting of responsibility to equal shares. 50/50 split on everything, from outside work to housework, decision-making, you name it...equal share and responsibility.
Complementarian is each person has their own strengths and weaknesses and their roles are defined by those in the work involved in the marriage.”

This is not quite accurate. Egalitarian is mutuality in relationship. In the Christian egalitarian marriage relationship responsibilities are divided by personal skills and interests, not 50/50 at all. The relationship is not defined by authority either, but by sacrificial love, submission and respect.

86. Kristen said the following at 11:47 PM on Mar 10:

About the comments regarding the husband's overspending: Does "submission" really mean we are supposed to go along with unwise and selfish choices our husbands make? When we are subordinates rather than equals-- sidekicks rather than best friends who will speak the truth in love-- are we really being the kind of "suitable helpers" our husbands need? Should we not be holding up to them the word of God that they are to be laying down their own lives (including their wild desires) for their families)?

I have no problem with submission-- but when it turns into this "he always has the last word and no one holds him accountable" thing, I think it begins to go astray.

The problem is that so many times the head-body metaphor set forth in Ephesians gets turned into "he's in charge, she gives in." I am convinced that is not at all what Paul -- or the Spirit-- meant. If a husband has a problem with spending, he needs someone who will stand by his side and ask him (gently, of course) the hard questions. After all, when he won't listen, it's not just he that suffers-- it's the wife and the kids too. He has no business buying himself fancy cars when there is nothing in savings for the kids' college, or the surgery the wife may need down the road.

Husbands need to treat their wives like equal partners, not subordinates. Her submission is supposed to be based on his sacrifice, not on his getting his own way.

87. abe said the following at 2:46 PM on Mar 11:

1 corinthians 13

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

One of the things we forget is that husbands are supposed to love their wives. Notice it says that love is not self seeking. Notice all the other things it says about love. Are the men who are expecting their wives to submit to them loving them in this manner? It's a question we need to ask.

88. BDB said the following at 3:29 PM on Mar 11:

Kristen (#85) wrote:

>>Does "submission" really mean we are supposed to go along with unwise and selfish choices our husbands make? <<

In a work setting, this is precisely the nature of authority. If the executive whose decision it is makes a bad decision, it is necessary to live with it.

A good executive will solicit input from all stakeholders if there is time. The Japanese management model is very good at this - some Japanese companies have every stakeholder write up extensive analysis of a potential idea and what should be done. When the decision is made, everyone has already had their say, and the person chosen to lead the implementation tells everyone else what the decision was. This is why they can execute so much faster than American companies, who make a decision at the top, and the mid and lower-level managers then push back about why it's a bad decision.

The child medical example (aggressive treatment vs. hospice) is an interesting one. When couples lose a child, divorce is quite common. I suspect it is more common in situations where one parent wanted to do more, and the other didn't; the one who wanted to do more may irrevocably resent the decision not to.

A good friend of mine is a hospice care manager. In general, she finds that the patient is ready for hospice before the rest of the family is. In several of those situations, she has told the family they are not ready for hospice. They are usually not ready until the family comes to terms with the terminal nature of the situation.

Surprisingly often, when aggressive treatments are removed, the patient improves for a while. A lot of side effects from the medication go away, and it allows time for the patient to say goodbye while being much more lucid than when suffering all the side effects from various medications.

In rare cases, people discover that their symptoms are actually a drug-interaction problem, and they go to hospice, and recover as soon as all the other meds are taken away and stop overtaxing the immune system.

89. Kristen said the following at 4:15 PM on Mar 11:

BDB wrote:

In a work setting, this is precisely the nature of authority. If the executive whose decision it is makes a bad decision, it is necessary to live with it.

An employer is not supposed to be "one flesh" with his/her employees. A marriage is not a boss-subordinate relationship. It was in New Testament times, but it was never intended to be by God (that's clear from the 1st chapter of Genesis, in which husband and wife are commissioned to rule together-- nothing about him ruling her was said till the Curse).

The New Testament passages actually went against the culture of the time in insisting that husbands and wives were to be one flesh, not boss-servant (which is what employer-employee relationships essentially are). Wives are never told to "obey" their husbands (as servants were told to obey their masters)-- only to yield, or submit-- and as has been said, the husband was to be yielding his own desires and needs in self-sacrifice for the wife.

How can two people act as one when they are in an employer-employee type relationship?

90. tiro said the following at 6:19 PM on Mar 11:

Bob wrote:"In a work setting, this is precisely the nature of authority. If the executive whose decision it is makes a bad decision, it is necessary to live with it."

So Bob, do you liken a wife to an employee who gets paid or a slave who is bought. Both must do as they are told even if it is a poor decision. And if she is an employee what do you consider her wages? Also, as an employee we are often able to renegotiate our terms. Do you consider that applicable also.

Said with a smile ...... :)

91. Ted Slater said the following at 8:42 AM on Mar 12:

Kristen (#88) -- you mention "the 1st chapter of Genesis, in which husband and wife are commissioned to rule together-- nothing about him ruling her was said till the Curse."

That's really not accurate. Paul makes it clear in 1 Tim. 2 that the differences in authority between men and women (e.g., in the church, in the family) didn't arise after the Fall, but were present at Creation. His argument about "authority" in relation to men and women is based not on sin or The Fall, but in the order of creation: "For Adam was formed first, then Eve."

See also 1 Cor. 11, in which Paul again refers not to The Fall, but to the order of creation, as the foundation of his argument that "the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" -- "For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."

This is difficult teaching -- authority within the spheres of the church and the family -- which our modern minds want to reject and/or misinterpret. But it is Scripture.

Note, again, that these verses speak of male-female roles within the church and family. I'm not confident that they apply to male-female roles within the workplace, or civil government, for example.

92. Matt from DC said the following at 10:39 AM on Mar 12:

Tiro,

With what kind of smile do you ask Bob these questions? It could be a wry smile, an evil smile, a condescending smile, a joyful smile.

Just curious.

Bob in 88,

I like what you said and it comes from the concept of headship. Which is voluntary submission not because of inequality or value or worth, but for the purpose of order. Much like a 10 year sergeant will submit to the fresh lieutenant because of rank and not because of value. The experienced enlisted person is quite a bit more valuable in war than the inexperienced officer.

I just finished listening to a three part sermon series by Voddie Baucham called Marriage by Design. It was quite good and tackled this issue in the sermon "What she must be". The whole series answers to fundamental questions "What is God's design for marriage revealed in the Bible?" and "What does the living out of that design look like in the life of a man or a woman?". The sermons were worth every bit of the $3 that I paid for them.

93. Catherine said the following at 11:28 AM on Mar 12:

I also wanted to comment on the reader who "submitted" to her husband's bad financial decisions. I think that an outside counselor was a good idea- and Biblical. Unfortunately, it didn't work. This is such a difficult situation- and one that could have been avoided with good pre-martial counseling and discernment. Mis-matched spending styles is a HUGE problem and should be a red flag when you are dating. My fiancee and I are working through a section on "spending styles" in our premartial workbook and I can't imagine going into marriage without a clear vision of where we stand on finances.

I think we have to take into account that the verses on "submission" generally refer to a marriage where both spouses are trying to live out the gospel. With an unbelieving/less committed spouse, things get very complicated and the answers don't always seem clear. As Candice has written, we are called to submit in this situation but I think the emphasis is on LOVING our husbands. Are you showing love and compassion in these conflicts? Are you trying to show him that your concern comes from love and not simple disagreement? I think that has to be our orientation. Its hard when it seems clear that they are wrong! ;)

94. Tami said the following at 11:40 AM on Mar 12:

For those of you questioning BDB's comment about leadership in the workplace and his likening it to marriage -- I think it's important to re-visit the fact that he discussed the nature of input in the next paragraph.

The very nature of leadership is that one person *leads* and takes responsibility for a decision. It doesn't mean that the leader has the "right" to ignore feedback from others, or browbeat them. In fact -- as BDB mentions -- business research shows that decisions are made more effectively and more quickly when input from others is sought.

Enough with the business ideas for now? ;) Think of David and his interactions with Abigail (1 Sam. 25). She provided input based on wisdom and humility, which David heeded. If she had come out screaming or fighting, as he had apparently faced with her husband Nabal, David would have encountered more friction, and the result would have been more fighting. And if she had simply hid and not pled with David, she would have brought more danger on herself and on her household.

Abigail's humility and interactions with David are great examples of godly and wise input here. And note that she didn't submit to the foolishness of her husband Nabal; she submitted to what would have been right in the sight of God (Abigail recognized that David was serving the Lord and she respected *that* while trying to save her own husband's household).

95. Rachael said the following at 12:54 PM on Mar 12:

92,

I'd guess Tiro's smile would be a friendly, don't take this the wrong way type of smile...

96. Heather Koerner said the following at 1:01 PM on Mar 12:

Christina (in green) #83:

I would disagree with your explanation of the difference between the egalitarian and complementarian views.

It's not a matter of which roles I am fulfilling at the moment (your example of I am egalitarian now because I work but will be complementarian someday). Rather, egalitarianism sees woman and men with the same created equality and same roles. Complementarianism sees them with the same created equality but with a differentiation of roles in the home and the church.

The difference has to do not with what I am doing, but what I believe to be true about how God created male and female. Thus, I could be a complementarian woman working full-time (as I suspect you may be) because I understand certain truths from Scripture. I could also (but rather more unlikely) be an egalitarian stay-at-home mom who rejects that Scripture teaches complementarian truths.

See The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood's Summaries of the Egalitarian and Complementarian Positions.

Blessings!

97. Matt from DC said the following at 1:01 PM on Mar 12:

Tami,

Regarding our mysterious coincidence the other day on the post about Dobson stepping down some things have happened that shed light on why that happened and I would be glad to share them with you. You can friend or message me on Facebook [http://www.facebook.com/people/Matt-Lawson/611861570] to get in touch with me personally.

98. BDB said the following at 1:12 PM on Mar 12:

tiro (#90) wrote:

>>do you liken a wife to an employee who gets paid or a slave who is bought.<<

No, I am not saying that the positions are the same. Positional authority and spiritual authority proceed from different sources. But all forms of authority share similar characteristics.

The primary examples used by those who don't like the "submission" verses are examples of abuse of authority. Anyone in a position of authority can abuse their authority, and no one likes it.

But the reality is that the world has authority parceled out all over the place, and to make it through life it is necessary to learn how to accept authority.

If you read biographies of great leaders, you will usually find that they struggled with someone in authority over them early in their career. They had to learn how to deal with that BEFORE they ended up in a position of authority themselves.

Those who don't learn how to accept authority are those who abuse it later on. You see this with entrepreneurs; many of whom go bankrupt at least once in their life. Often this is because they refuse to listen to others - they believe they are the ultimate authority. If there's a financial weakness in their business model, they refuse to listen to their finance person (if they have one), and eventually their banker pulls the plug. If they listened sooner, they might have been able to take action and change their approach to whatever the situation is.

Personally, I'm wondering if this particular set of passages on submissions are designed to help women learn the nature of authority so they can teach it effectively to their children. Children who somewhat reject authority tend to abuse their freedom as adults - these are the people who make bad choices under the influence of alcohol. They are the ones who quit their job every time they disagree with their boss, instead of learning to submit long enough to see something through. Children who absolutely refuse to accept authority end up in jail. If authority is not learned in the family, society will impose it.

I know several women who deeply resent that their husbands refuse to take spiritual leadership. I know other families where dad abdicated leadership long ago, and now one or more of the kids is involved in substance abuse, creating problems and drama for the rest of the family.

The bottom line is that effective leaders, regardless of the situation, learn to solicit input and minimize the number of times they impose a decision based soley on their authority to do so.

99. Victoria said the following at 1:20 PM on Mar 12:

Catherine (#93): I am the one who submitted to her husband's bad financial decisions. You say that this could have been avoided with good premarital counseling, but in our case, we DID have premarital counseling, and finances were discussed. The reason it wasn't helpful to us is that we got married at 21 and hence, didn't have any money. So spending/not spending wasn't a big deal. The first year of our marriage it wasn't an issue either because... we didn't have any money! It was only when we both landed good jobs and began making more money than we ever dreamed of, that this even became an issue. To sum up, during dating/engagement/early marriage, neither one of us had a 'spending' financial style since we had no money to speak of. Both of us are from poorer families and I think the great income we were suddenly making just went to his head, like "Wow, I can buy all this stuff now that before I only dreamt about!" My initial question was, at what point does the Christian wife take the reins into her own hands, open her own account for savings, and basically cut her husband off? I don't think I'm ready to do something that drastic, right now I'm just trusting the Lord. My husband is a good man who wants to do what's right, he has made mistakes in the past and now we are living with the consequences... It could be worse, we are debt-free at least (although savings-free as well). I truly hope our baby will change his priorities. Thanks everyone for your input!

100. BDB said the following at 1:27 PM on Mar 12:

100

Oh! Tami (#94) reminded me of how important the study of King David is in understanding the nature of authority.

Recall that David had a number of opportunities to kill King Saul. He refused to do anything to harm the Lord's annointed. See 1 Samuel 24 for an illustration of how David refused to defy God's authority and kill Saul when he had the opportunity.

When someone finally DID kill King Saul, at Saul's request so he wouldn't be captured alive, David had that messenger killed for harming the Lord's Annointed. See 2 Samuel 1

David's success as King came after he learned to respect authority, even when that authority was causing him a lot of grief.

Contributors

About Us

Relevant Boundless Articles

SUBSCRIBE VIA EMAIL

Newer Post | Older Post

Practical Submission
by Candice Watters on 03/04/2009 at 8:00 AM

Marriage & Family | Mail This | Share on Facebook

Comments

You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

1. Kate said the following at 8:28 AM on Mar 4:

2. BB said the following at 8:38 AM on Mar 4:

A couple of good questions to ask.

1) Would you rather...
Make the right decision on your own with out your husbands consent
or
Submit to your husband's decision even though it is wrong.

Neither situation is good but the question you should ask yourself is "What does God say I should do?"

xml site:
http://media.colonialmedia.org/Media_Feed.xml

Role of Wives:
http://media.colonialmedia.org/20090111-pm.mp3

Role of Husbands:
http://media.colonialmedia.org/20090118-pm.mp3

3. Matthew said the following at 9:37 AM on Mar 4:

4. Jayme said the following at 9:41 AM on Mar 4:

I'm a little disappointed - I wanted to talk more about what this looks like practically in dating relationships.

Practically speaking, of course.

5. Tiffany said the following at 10:36 AM on Mar 4:

I think Jayme asked some good questions, and I don't want to hijack this post, but can I add my own:

What does submission LOOK like? How does it play out in your own marriage every day?

6. Andrea-Elena said the following at 10:39 AM on Mar 4:

If we say that submission is her role, then any time she is not submitting, she is not playing her role. But when we remember that helper is her role, that puts submission in its proper context.

So... practical submitting...

I asked a married friend how it looks in her marriage, and she said, "I wouldn't even purchase a lamp without my husband's input."

She replied, "Well, the lamp's gonna go in his home."

"That's interesting," I said. "My dad could care less about the aesthetics of things. He just cares how much Mom spends."

"See that's the difference. My husband does care about how things look," said my friend.

I don't remember what she said in reply.

To me, her submitting that particular kind of decision to her husband's style of leadership is part of her style of helping.

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong issues... I dunno.

So... what say you, Boundless staff and Boundless readers?

7. Mrs. Spit said the following at 10:43 AM on Mar 4:

Jayme:

I'm sure others will be along, but. . .

8. L said the following at 10:46 AM on Mar 4:

9. Tiffany said the following at 11:02 AM on Mar 4:

Andrea-Elena,

Wow, what a well-written and thought out comment! You're the first person to ever present the idea of leader-helpmate in a way that didn't seem to me to be confining and belittling to women.

Thank you! I'm definitely going to be thinking about the things you wrote.

And Mrs. Spit, if you don't ever reach an impasse that requires you to invoke your husband's position as leader, are you still submitting?

I guess because my husband and I have also never found ourselves at a complete impasse, I assumed that we were someone violating the conservative Christian understanding of wifely submission.

10. callie m said the following at 11:09 AM on Mar 4:

11. H.A.P. said the following at 12:24 PM on Mar 4:

12. BDB said the following at 1:16 PM on Mar 4:

Jayme (#4) here's one idea where it can apply to dating: let him plan stuff.

I've known a few women who insist on controlling everything - where to go to dinner, for entertainment, activities, etc. Disagree with them, and they explode. It's not attractive.

13. BDB said the following at 1:32 PM on Mar 4:

Leadership in all settings tends to be something that grows over time. Let me share two examples.

She lost $140,000 before she sold.

I didn't rub her face in it or say, "I told you so." But she is a LOT more respectful of my perspective on financial matters now.

A guy I used to work with had an investment rule: if a stock doubles in value, sell half (to recover the initial investment) and diversify into other things.

A couple of years ago, he excitedly came into my office. He had made $400,000 on the rise in Exxon stock! He could retire early!

14. BDB said the following at 1:39 PM on Mar 4:

By the way, #2 wasn't me.

15. Laura said the following at 1:45 PM on Mar 4:

Submitting is her response to the husband's leading.

(Leader is the husband's role. Leading is his function. Praise is his response to the wife's helping.)

This sounds nice, but seems to complicate what the Bible keeps pretty simple. :-)

16. Candice Watters said the following at 1:56 PM on Mar 4:

17. Andrea-Elena said the following at 2:17 PM on Mar 4:

BDB (#14),

Yep, I realized that too late. Sorry!

Laura (#15):

I agree with you about the "crazy cycle." And that neither spouse is to wait for the other to do what's right in order to fulfill his/her responsibilities.

And props to ya for using italics properly. =)

18. Tiffany said the following at 2:30 PM on Mar 4:

19. Laura K said the following at 2:32 PM on Mar 4:

20. Mrs. Spit said the following at 2:32 PM on Mar 4:

Tiffany:

What's best for us as a family.

We have always been able to identify best for our family - sometimes it has taken prayer, hard discussions, and seeking the counsel of others.

Together. One Flesh.

21. BDB said the following at 2:33 PM on Mar 4:

You know, outside of submission in marriage, there is a biblical direction to correct other believers who are sinning. In love of course. But here's how it might look in a dating context.

If I were to outline to her why she needed to be paying her taxes, she might have several different responses.

Maybe she just didn't know. If she were to ask me how to file her taxes properly, I would be estatic.

But if she refused, saying I had no right to tell her what to do - it would be a deal breaker. I simply can't be involved with someone who is deliberately engaging in sin and criminal behavior.

22. BB said the following at 3:08 PM on Mar 4:

23. Beth said the following at 3:15 PM on Mar 4:

24. Heidi Marie said the following at 4:55 PM on Mar 4:

25. Candice Watters said the following at 5:05 PM on Mar 4:

26. Rachael said the following at 6:31 PM on Mar 4:

27. Rachael said the following at 6:41 PM on Mar 4:

PS Just want to add that the Bible also says we're supposed to "submit to one another"...(not gender specific), in Eph. 5:21, right before 5:22 where wives are told to submit to their husbands...

Like loving others above ourselves and putting others' needs above our own -- the ideal.

28. beatrice81 said the following at 7:32 PM on Mar 4:

29. BDB said the following at 7:38 PM on Mar 4:

Incidentally, one of the most interesting things I learned as a new manager was how applicable the sermons on men showing leadership at home were.

I had a number of married women on my staff. It was interesting to see how they handled me when I made a bad decision.

Frankly, I hear married people talk like that all the time about certain things - whether the TV remote or how they like their mashed potatoes...

30. farmer Tom said the following at 9:53 PM on Mar 4:

28. beatrice81,

Bite my tongue. Grrrrr.............. (repeat to self), it's not worth it, it's not worth it,

From Kansas aren't you? Big fan of Tiller the Killer too?

A shrill voice and attempts to portray oneself as masculine do not a leader make.

Ephesians 5: 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church:

Will not comment on that shrill woman, will not comment on that shrill woman,
will not comment on that shrill woman,

Please find some different examples of "female" leaders, please, please. With emphasis on "female".

31. H.A.P. said the following at 4:18 AM on Mar 5:

Another sneaky way of being disrespectful is constant questioning.

32. BB said the following at 7:21 AM on Mar 5:

33. BB said the following at 7:37 AM on Mar 5:

Similarly, the wife may be the better natural leader however God gave that authority to the male. To question that role is to question God's design. To disobey that role is to disobey God.

34. L said the following at 8:19 AM on Mar 5:

#6
But, really, not buying a lamp for 'his' home - well, that is just wrong. It is not his home. It is the family home. Seriously!

35. Beckie said the following at 9:32 AM on Mar 5:

#30, farmer tom:
Condoleeza Rice
Michelle Obama
Sandra Day O'Connor
Michelle Bachelet
Golda Meir
Mother Theresa

Not the most helpful list, and not all the women on it are married, or leaders in the same way...but at least they're not "that shrill woman" :)

36. Kellie said the following at 9:58 AM on Mar 5:

37. Sara F. said the following at 9:59 AM on Mar 5:

38. IMO said the following at 10:43 AM on Mar 5:

"Honestly, I don't like the word submission."

Well, take it up with the Lord, then.

39. Tiffany said the following at 11:00 AM on Mar 5:

IMO,

Maybe the problem Kellie (and lots of others) have is with the English connotations of the word submission. Let's not be so quick to assume that her issue is with God's commandment.

40. Kellie said the following at 11:22 AM on Mar 5:

IMO: see comment #39.

I'm just not sure I exactly know what is God's command and what is human (or cultural) interpretation.

41. Jo said the following at 11:41 AM on Mar 5:

H.A.P.:
Your comments on this have been really insightful.

42. IMO said the following at 12:19 PM on Mar 5:

Tiffany,
Like I said, I haven't seen this with the many couples I know from church, including my own small group I'm in.
You are allowed to have your experience. So am I.

It's actually pretty dismaying to here couples have "parent-child" relationships. That's not how God created things.

Kellie,
If you don't know, have you tried finding the answer? God truly doesn't make things that complicated for us...though I'm sure there are books that say otherwise.

43. BDB said the following at 12:29 PM on Mar 5:

Sara F (#37) wrote:

>>When we decided to buy a car, I did NOT want to purchase the warranty,<<

Oh, that's such a good example!

I have typically been the same way, believing that if I bought a good car, especially if I bought it new, and took care of it, statistically the warranty would always be a waste of money.

However, the last car I bought I did, for a few reasons:

1) I tend to keep cars to 100,000 miles, and usually trade in when maintenance becomes a hassle.

2) For my last car, though it had less than 70,000 miles, I had spent $2000 in repairs in the previous six months. This really annoyed me.

3) The model car I was buying was a redesign, and major redesigns are more likely to have problems they didn't anticipate.

I thought, hmmm...if I keep this car as long as I usually do, I might not be the one negotiating the repairs. Better to have the warranty so the repair negotiation is less stressful.

So, it's not an economic decision. Then again, insurance decisions are usually about peace-of-mind, not pure economic decisions.

44. Tiffany said the following at 12:44 PM on Mar 5:

So maybe it's not abnormal that people tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to "submission." They are understanding it as they understand that word in their culture/environment.

45. IMO said the following at 12:46 PM on Mar 5:

46. Victoria said the following at 12:51 PM on Mar 5:

47. Louise from Chicago said the following at 1:08 PM on Mar 5:

Comment 46, if I had a Biblical, rather than a secular worldview, a number of years ago I could have very easily have been in your exact position.

Good luck.

48. IMO said the following at 1:17 PM on Mar 5:

If Kellie understands that biblical concept, then I don't understand why she doesn't like the word submission (in the Biblical sense). And that's why I say she should take it up with the Lord.

Any Christian that struggles with that word (or any other Scriptureal matter) needs to seek God. Yes I am just being general and not giving out any "guidelines" in the seeking the Lord process.

I'm not saying it's wrong to wrestle about an issue. Just don't wrestle it on your own.

49. IMO said the following at 1:23 PM on Mar 5:

Wow Victoria, that's terrible!

From what I just read, it sounds like your husband may be sinning against God and you. Of course I don't know the whole story but I'm just making this assumption based on your comment.

If your husband is sinning against the Lord and you, you don't need to submit to here. Period.

50. Jayme said the following at 1:53 PM on Mar 5:

I had forgotten that I posted this -- I meant to check back for responses!

This isn't me demanding any of these things - just me expecting them.

51. Louise from Chicago said the following at 2:23 PM on Mar 5:

52. BDB said the following at 2:51 PM on Mar 5:

Jayme (#50), I think you're doing better than average! 20 dates in 4 months, that IS serious...

53. Texas Craig said the following at 4:00 PM on Mar 5:

Some people have asked what submission looks like in marriage. I can tell you what it looks like in my marriage (after 13+ years of marriage and feeling like I have a great marriage).

54. BDB said the following at 4:00 PM on Mar 5:

Victoria (#46) I agree with IMO (#49)

One of our pastors described a similar situation his own life once:

He sold the truck.

But it took an outside mentor to point out the truth.

And no, I don't have either a sound system or a luxury automobile. That's part of my rationalization in buy a new car instead of used...better to pay off a Honda than lease a Lexus...

55. BDB said the following at 4:04 PM on Mar 5:

OK, I'll admit that my Honda audio system can have an iPod plugged into it.

When the 50-something salesperson told me this, I looked at him over the top of my glasses and said, "I don't have an iPod." He laughed and said, "Neither do I!"

But, if I keep the car long enough to have a teenager, they can plug THEIR iPod into it I guess...

56. Texas Craig said the following at 5:09 PM on Mar 5:

BDB:

Your comments about cars makes me think about a joke my friend always plays on me.

And, in 3 years of owning my Acura, I have spent less than $2,000 in maintenance on it! :-)

(the transmission will probably go out tomorrow on it....)

57. Kellie said the following at 6:09 PM on Mar 5:

IMO,

I will freely admit I don't understand many biblical concepts, despite the fact that I have been a Christian nearly my whole life.

58. Cassandra said the following at 6:25 PM on Mar 5:

59. Rachael said the following at 7:58 PM on Mar 5:

re: #32's question to me,"In verse 22's case, I suspect this is talking about two Christians who do not hold a leadership role such as pastor or elder. Would you agree?"

And if a husband were to pull the submissive card all the time, I'd wonder if there was some kind of dominating control, lack of love issue at hand...

I don't think the submission issue should be focused on more than other issues in Scripture, unless perhaps that's really where the couple is having the problem.

#53 wrote:

"But, by tempering it with a heart of love and service, I do not have to try to get others to submit to me. Rather, submission does not even become an issue. "

I like that approach.

Like #53 also said:
"So, first and foremost, my job is simply to do my part and not lord other verses over anyone else, including my wife."

I like that attitude of placing a highER importance on working on one's own faith and actions (not saying 'no importance on the alternatives', though), and hope I can adopt that in the near future.

60. k. said the following at 8:52 PM on Mar 5:

Victoria - Yes: open your own bank account. And go seek advice and input from someone like a counselor. Good luck!

61. BDB said the following at 10:39 PM on Mar 5:

Texas Craig (#56) wrote:

>>(the transmission will probably go out tomorrow on it....) <<

Send me your address. I have friends in Texas who can arrange that...kidding! kidding!

>>And, in 3 years of owning my Acura, I have spent less than $2,000 in maintenance on it! :-)<<

Yep, that's why people aren't buying GM products. Even Japanese products built in the U.S., like my car, last so much longer.

My dad just bought the same make and model as me, but a two-year older used car so he can say he's more frugal. Thanks!

What in the world were we talking about?

I couldn't resist teasing her about getting totalled by a bicycle. She insisted NO! Mercedes makes them!

And wouldn't you know it? She was hit by a bus. I kid you not - a school bus right up by my house. She was OK, vindicating the safety thing. In a squashed golf-cart sort of vindication.

I'll have to ask her husband if he's going to make her drive an SUV from now on...

62. valerie said the following at 1:28 AM on Mar 6:

RE: Mrs. Spit (#20)

What a heart-wrenching experience. Thank you for bringing your perspective to the table.

RE: BDB & Farmer Tom:

As in a post above, one of my best friends has struggled with respect for her (Christ-following) husband because she is in charge of the money, and he is irresponsible with it.

63. Texas Craig said the following at 8:07 AM on Mar 6:

Cassandra (#58):

For example, Ephesians 5:21 says "Submit to one another, out of reverence for Christ."

James 3:17 says "The wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure, then peace-loving, considerate, SUBMISSIVE..."

So, I do agree with you that submissiveness is an attitude. But, I think it is clearly an attitude we all are to have, not just wives.

Having said that, it is one I struggle with mightily. It is easy for me to serve others and to not worry about pretense, but to actually submit is a much more difficult thing. :-)

64. IMO said the following at 8:27 AM on Mar 6:

Kellie (#57)

I truly do believe that, "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." James 1:5

[You can do a whole biblegateway search on wisdom... I just did...loving it..I have to restrain myself from posting a bunch of verses right now :P]

"....because Christians have lots of different views (and everyone believes they are right) on what that should look like."

65. elaine said the following at 9:05 AM on Mar 6:

66. Cassandra said the following at 9:52 AM on Mar 6:

Texas Craig (#63):

I agree with you totally! However there is a distinction. God is setting up a gender-based submission structure here. Ephesians 5:22-24

The submission structure goes from wife to husband to Christ.

"So, I do agree with you that submissiveness is an attitude. But, I think it is clearly an attitude we all are to have, not just wives."

I agree! I don't consider this commandment to be chauvinistic, because we're all submitting. No one is left out. But I don't want to shirk away from the structure God instituted either.

67. Rachael said the following at 9:52 AM on Mar 6:

Yeah, I agree with others on here that submissiveness can be a way of life/attitude. That's maybe, 'common, nonthinking submission' or something.

Interesting that #63 seemed to see serving as different than submitting.

I wonder if the line can be blurry at times.

If you count them as the same, perhaps the 'serving' aspect won't always feel like 'submitting', but, I think submitting is just more plum obvious to me when two disagree and one gives in.

Perhaps submission has a lot of different hats...no-brainers, gut-wrenching, daily service....

68. Rachael said the following at 10:37 AM on Mar 6:

69. Tiffany said the following at 11:01 AM on Mar 6:

Rachael said: "it's okay for the woman to have opinions and share them if it's not done in a sinful way."

Is there a specifically sinful way for a woman to have and share an opinion that wouldn't equally be sinful if held/done by a man?

70. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:16 AM on Mar 6:

71. Jayme said the following at 11:19 AM on Mar 6:

So...if letting him plan dates isn't an act of submission (and I kind of agree that it isn't)...are there acts of submission in dating? What are they?

72. Trevor Dolby said the following at 11:39 AM on Mar 6:

Note that I'm not advising you on what you should "do" - you would be well advised to take lightly any such advice from people who won't be there to hold and comfort you when life gets tough . . .

73. Victoria said the following at 1:20 PM on Mar 6:

74. Rachael said the following at 4:25 PM on Mar 6:

Tiffany,

Possibly not, unless it involved doing it in a way that said, "I get the final word" whereas if a man conveyed that feeling through his words it might be okay...?

Jayme,

75. Craig M said the following at 5:24 PM on Mar 6:

76. BDB said the following at 5:46 PM on Mar 6:

Finally, a compromise was reached. They got the sunroom, and my grandfather spent $20,000 to replace the car. Yep, they still drive.

77. Samaria said the following at 10:40 PM on Mar 6:

Craig M 75 said, "I don't understand the hostility occasioned by the word 'obey'..."

Respectfully,

Samaria

78. em said the following at 12:19 AM on Mar 7:

just a few thoughts...

79. Rachael said the following at 10:44 AM on Mar 7:

Thinking more about submission....

If the issue comes up again in the future, I know I should 'submit' in the sense of trying to accept the situation joyfully or quietly...or something.

I think what I really need to do is try not to have certain expectations or hopes but it seems impossible as I can naturally have uncomfortable feelings about things.

I think I've heard the advice before about expectations. And it's so easy to know in my mind but feels almost impossible not to have certain expectations and hopes.

Perhaps somewhere on Boundless is the idea that that person at 50 years old or whatever is different than they were when they first married. They grew.

I really want to grow, but wish I could push a button and not have to put any blood and guts into it, but what good would that be?

But Jesus did say His yoke is easy and his burden is light. Although carrying the cross sounds so difficult to me, maybe if I actually pick it up He'll carry it for me and lighten the load?

If He commands us to do certain things in His Word, they must not be impossible to follow as "With God all things are possible."

80. Kyra said the following at 9:05 AM on Mar 9:

A Submission on Submission:
This is a (hopefully) short tale of my struggle with this concept of wifely submission, and where I stand today.

81. Don Johnson said the following at 9:13 AM on Mar 9:

82. Kyra said the following at 9:21 AM on Mar 9:

Egalitarian vs. Complementarian??

--I'd let him make the final decision in major matters such as where to live, how many children to have, whether or not to adopt, whether or not he or I should take a certain job....

83. Christina (in green) said the following at 4:27 PM on Mar 10:

#82 (and some of the others...),

Egalitarian essentially is the splitting of responsibility to equal shares. 50/50 split on everything, from outside work to housework, decision-making, you name it...equal share and responsibility.

Complementarian is each person has their own strengths and weaknesses and their roles are defined by those in the work involved in the marriage.

Neither one really deals with submission.

Currently, I'm in an egalitarian relationship. We both work. We both have household chores. We both have our own bank accounts. Most of this is simply because life hasn't really demanded otherwise.

When the time comes, we will be complementarian.

However, through all of it, my husband is the leading authority in the home. There's no question about it.

What Samaria said about obedience was very well said =p I had that issue, to. I'm not quite certain what prompted the attitude shift, but I think a lot of it has to do with TRUST.

Trust that God's plans are best and trust that my husband will put our family's well-being above his own personal wants.

84. Historyloveralways said the following at 6:05 PM on Mar 10:

See kephale at the Liddell Scott lexicon at:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2356992

85. tiro said the following at 8:49 PM on Mar 10:

86. Kristen said the following at 11:47 PM on Mar 10:

I have no problem with submission-- but when it turns into this "he always has the last word and no one holds him accountable" thing, I think it begins to go astray.

Husbands need to treat their wives like equal partners, not subordinates. Her submission is supposed to be based on his sacrifice, not on his getting his own way.

87. abe said the following at 2:46 PM on Mar 11:

1 corinthians 13

88. BDB said the following at 3:29 PM on Mar 11:

Kristen (#85) wrote:

>>Does "submission" really mean we are supposed to go along with unwise and selfish choices our husbands make? <<

In a work setting, this is precisely the nature of authority. If the executive whose decision it is makes a bad decision, it is necessary to live with it.

89. Kristen said the following at 4:15 PM on Mar 11:

BDB wrote:

In a work setting, this is precisely the nature of authority. If the executive whose decision it is makes a bad decision, it is necessary to live with it.

How can two people act as one when they are in an employer-employee type relationship?

90. tiro said the following at 6:19 PM on Mar 11:

Bob wrote:"In a work setting, this is precisely the nature of authority. If the executive whose decision it is makes a bad decision, it is necessary to live with it."

Said with a smile ...... :)

91. Ted Slater said the following at 8:42 AM on Mar 12:

Kristen (#88) -- you mention "the 1st chapter of Genesis, in which husband and wife are commissioned to rule together-- nothing about him ruling her was said till the Curse."

This is difficult teaching -- authority within the spheres of the church and the family -- which our modern minds want to reject and/or misinterpret. But it is Scripture.

Note, again, that these verses speak of male-female roles within the church and family. I'm not confident that they apply to male-female roles within the workplace, or civil government, for example.

92. Matt from DC said the following at 10:39 AM on Mar 12:

Tiro,

With what kind of smile do you ask Bob these questions? It could be a wry smile, an evil smile, a condescending smile, a joyful smile.

Just curious.

Bob in 88,

93. Catherine said the following at 11:28 AM on Mar 12:

94. Tami said the following at 11:40 AM on Mar 12:

95. Rachael said the following at 12:54 PM on Mar 12:

92,

I'd guess Tiro's smile would be a friendly, don't take this the wrong way type of smile...

96. Heather Koerner said the following at 1:01 PM on Mar 12:

Christina (in green) #83:

I would disagree with your explanation of the difference between the egalitarian and complementarian views.

See The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood's Summaries of the Egalitarian and Complementarian Positions.

Blessings!

97. Matt from DC said the following at 1:01 PM on Mar 12:

Tami,

98. BDB said the following at 1:12 PM on Mar 12:

tiro (#90) wrote:

>>do you liken a wife to an employee who gets paid or a slave who is bought.<<

No, I am not saying that the positions are the same. Positional authority and spiritual authority proceed from different sources. But all forms of authority share similar characteristics.

The primary examples used by those who don't like the "submission" verses are examples of abuse of authority. Anyone in a position of authority can abuse their authority, and no one likes it.

But the reality is that the world has authority parceled out all over the place, and to make it through life it is necessary to learn how to accept authority.

The bottom line is that effective leaders, regardless of the situation, learn to solicit input and minimize the number of times they impose a decision based soley on their authority to do so.

99. Victoria said the following at 1:20 PM on Mar 12:

100. BDB said the following at 1:27 PM on Mar 12:

100

Oh! Tami (#94) reminded me of how important the study of King David is in understanding the nature of authority.

When someone finally DID kill King Saul, at Saul's request so he wouldn't be captured alive, David had that messenger killed for harming the Lord's Annointed. See 2 Samuel 1

David's success as King came after he learned to respect authority, even when that authority was causing him a lot of grief.

If you'd like to leave a comment, click here. I couldn't get the commenting feature to work correctly here, but it is available on that less user-friendly mobile version of the blog. Yeah, it's kludgy. Sorry. ~Ted.

Practical Submission
by Candice Watters on 03/04/2009 at 8:00 AM

Comments

Post a comment*

External Links

Recent Posts

Recent Comments

Archives

Contributors

About Us

Relevant Boundless Articles

SUBSCRIBE VIA EMAIL

Practical Submission
by Candice Watters on 03/04/2009 at 8:00 AM

Comments

Practical Submission by Candice Watters on 03/04/2009 at 8:00 AM

Comments

Post a comment*

External Links

Recent Posts

Recent Comments

Archives

Contributors

About Us

Relevant Boundless Articles

SUBSCRIBE VIA EMAIL

Practical Submission by Candice Watters on 03/04/2009 at 8:00 AM

Comments

Practical Submission
by Candice Watters on 03/04/2009 at 8:00 AM

Practical Submission
by Candice Watters on 03/04/2009 at 8:00 AM