Drinking for the Boys
by Heather Koerner on 03/19/2009 at 11:55 AM
According to a recent study, college women may drink to excess to impress men, but the men aren't impressed.
The participants, aged 18-25, filled out online surveys during the 2007 fall semester. The women answered questions relating to how many drinks they thought a typical college guy would like his female friends to drink as well as the maximum number of drinks he would prefer. The men then answered questions related to their preferences.
The results? The majority of women (71 percent) overestimated the men's actual preferences by an average of 1 1/2 drinks.
"There is a great, and risky, disconnect here between the sexes," lead author Joseph LaBrie said in a statement. "While not all women may be drinking simply to get a guy's attention, this may help explain why more women are drinking at dangerous levels."
Reading this article made me, quite frankly, just sad. The author is right -- probably not all of these young women are drinking simply to get a guy's attention. Maybe some of them, for some reason, enjoy knocking back five or more drinks. But my guess is that it's not very many.
I'm sure that not all women who dress provocatively do it for a guy's attention. But I really wonder if their idea of "these clothes make me feel pretty" isn't based at least somewhat on the power to turn a man's head.
And there may be those Sex in the City "Samantha" types who just want to have unattached, unencumbered sex. But I've comforted one too many college roommates who gave themselves to a man only to be dumped once again, to really believe that to be the norm.
For me, this study was just a reminder. A reminder that I am the Lord's but I am also living in a world saturated with "Girls Gone Wild" messages of how to attract a man. I need to intentionally face those messages and filter them through the Word of God. The world may tell me to sex it up. But my God tells me that He cherishes modesty. The world may encourage me to table dance for the party, but my God tells me that He cherishes a gentle and quiet spirit. The world may tell me that drunkenness is attractive. My God tells me that it's not.
One of the desires of my heart is for a man who loves the Lord to also love me. I need to understand that following the world's advice will not make that happen. And, in the end, I really don't want the world's advice. I don't want to be an object who loses her worth at the first sign of a root or a wrinkle. My God tells me that I am a fellow heir who is to be loved and respected. Girls, I'll take that every day of the week.
1. Rachael said the following at 12:16 PM on Mar 19:
I believe it is okay for a believer to drink alcohol within reason. And I have drunk a little (and rarely) and may drink a little again. But I don't really like the idea of alcohol (or tasting the alcohol part of the drink - yuck). It can cause so much damage to people's lives.
And there are so many good non-alcoholic beverages out there. It is a little sad to me that it is popular to drink something that can alter one's mood and behavior and to fit in. Perhaps some would feel that caffeine and sugar may do that to some extent as well. And medicine can have side effects...but anyway...
It would be neat if drinking non-alcoholic beverages would become more popular at social gatherings outside of coffee/tea/juice/ice cream shops and kind-of kick alcohol off of its pedestal.
Again, it's okay for people to drink within reason. But I wish it weren't so popular, especially in contexts where people change or get addicted.
2. Matt from DC said the following at 12:44 PM on Mar 19:
Proverbs 11:22 Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a beautiful woman who shows no discretion.
3. Louise from Chicago said the following at 12:53 PM on Mar 19:
One needs to be oneself!
And that includes males too.
If you have to pretend to be something/someone you are not in order to attract friends/partners, then forget it.
I don't personally recall a lot of college women who drank to "impress men" per se, but I recall several people who didn't much care for alcohol who drank in order to fit in...like they couldn't have "fit in" just as well with a soft drink!
4. kaj said the following at 1:09 PM on Mar 19:
I have never drank alcohol. Considering the medical and clinical effects of alcohol on the human body, I don't see any good reason to start.
(This is not to judge "moderate" drinkers, but I just don't see what I'm missing out on by not drinking at all--except maybe making decisions under the influence of alcohol that I may regret later)
5. Lola said the following at 1:55 PM on Mar 19:
This article was spot on.I'm at uni and the sheer amount of drinks,my female and male coursemates consume is staggering. It's interesting to see that females thought they had to drink more to impress male friends. I think this can be partially explained by the feminist view of what a guy can do, we can do just as good and sometimes even better. They spend more money(read:student loans) on alcohol than food and books.
To Kaj, alcohol in moderation that is about a glass(for women) or two(for men) of wine a day or even a bottle of beer has beneficial effects on cardiovascular health(the heart).
This benefit is most noticeable in middle aged people where heart problems become more prominent than other possible events that could occur. That's not to say everyone should start drinking.
The biggest problem is where to draw the line. And as all people know, self-control is not restricted to alcohol.
6. Rachael said the following at 2:07 PM on Mar 19:
Oops my comment I was starting disappeared. Oh well.
Though I've drank a little, and may again sometime try a little/sips, people are okay offering non-alcoholic things. It's not a big deal.
A large part of me is glad I have hated 99-100% of the alcohol I have tasted (I say 99% because one time I had something I heard had a tiny bit of alcohol [who knows maybe the same amount as is in juice [I thought I heard juice had a little bit in it]]. Anyway, I don't remember being able to detect the alcohol in it] because I wouldn't want to err on the side of drinking it too much or liking it too much and having problems with it.
However, a little part of me thinks it could be nice if I had the talent of liking it and knowing how much I could drink without affect(like I don't even know if I could drink a whole glass of wine without it affecting me so I don't really want to try that even if I got to the point of liking it).
7. BDB said the following at 2:29 PM on Mar 19:
Perhaps binge drinking just makes the men look more attractive to the women.
8. Brian said the following at 2:35 PM on Mar 19:
To me, a lot of it comes down to the type of guy (or girl) that you're trying to attract. If a girl attracts a guy by drinking a lot (or by dressing revealingly/provocatively), it says something about his character for being attracted to those things. Alternatively, if girl attracts a guy by being modest, self-controlled, etc. all the while, it also says something (something profoundly different) about his character.
I think I read something like this somewhere... 'model the behavior and character of the type of person you want to attract'... for girls *and* guys. The process may take longer, and may not seem like it's bringing any fruit for a long while... but think about how much faith it takes (or develops!) if you stay true to God's principles even in the face of the "reward" of others who are going about getting what they want in a worldly way?
9. BDB said the following at 2:56 PM on Mar 19:
Perhaps it's like babies and pets: for those who want to add more vomit to their lives!
10. Carrie D said the following at 3:25 PM on Mar 19:
I don't think the author was trying to begin a discussion on whether or not it's "okay" for believers to consume alcohol. I am a committed Christian, but I do drink at some parties and restaurants. If I feel it is inappropriate, or if anyone in my company would be offended/tempted, then I refrain.
What I believe the author is commenting on is the "devil may care" attitude that many women tag onto alcohol consumption. Many women seem to believe that the amount of alcohol they consume is indicative of their "life experience" level; the more alcohol you can hold, the more fun you have had in your life--you've been to more parties, traveled more, had more relationships, had more friends. You're stronger, braver, dealt with more of life, taken more chances. It's called a "light-weight" for a reason; if you don't drink as much, you apparently can't swing with the big boys.
What Louise from Chicago has said is absolutely true. Women often drink excessively to put on the image I've described--I certainly experienced a temptation towards it. They drink to look braver, while the sad truth is just the opposite! Not only is it terrifying to think of letting your true self shine through in front of people who aren't close friends, but women deal with the added fear of being unable to attract a man's attention.
Heather, you're spot-on. Anytime I am tempted to dress or speak provocatively, I try to remind myself that the world has created a design for men, and God has created a design for men. If I prefer God's design for men, then I must encourage it. And I can't do that by using the world's methods of getting a man's attention.
11. pass the ammunition said the following at 6:39 PM on Mar 19:
Unfortunately college girls do drink a lot! But I don't think its to invite guys, I think its to "let loose" so they are more confident to go after the guy or do/say/wear things that they normally wouldn't. The only girls I've seen that drink to impress guys are the tomboy girls who want a guy to like them but don't know how to be feminine, so they do it the only way they can---be one of the guys.
12. Nancy said the following at 6:52 PM on Mar 19:
I believe the last paragraph is right on! I had a recent discussion with 4 high school girls about modesty and boys. We talked about what other girls are doing to attract guys and how easy it would be to copy them in dress and actions. But then we also have to look at the type of guys these women are attracting and ask ourselves if those are really the guys that we want to date or even marry. If the answer is no, then we shouldn't be trying to attract them. God has set us apart and we need to stand in that.
13. Chris said the following at 8:53 PM on Mar 19:
From the article:
The women answered several questions to determine, on average, how many drinks they thought a typical college man would like his female friends to drink at a typical event, as well as the maximum number of drinks they thought the men would like their female friends to drink.
The women were asked how many drinks they thought men liked to see women drink. The women did not report how many drinks they actually drank in order to impress a guy or comply with what he thought they ought to drink.
Big difference.
14. Kathryn said the following at 9:26 PM on Mar 19:
I used to get drunk. It was a horrible experience and I never want to repeat it. I still drink a glass of wine over dinner, or a beer at a party occasionally, but even then it's about fortnightly.
My boyfriend tells me that my most attractive feature is my Godliness. Which is entirely sobering (haha, pun not intended). I was working on Godliness before I met him and am working on Godliness with his encouragement now. He is a very Godly man.
Brian said it right here: model the behavior and character of the type of person you want to attract
15. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 1:16 AM on Mar 20:
Before I was a Christian, there was about a three-year period in my life in which I drank quite heavily (black-outs and such). After God saved me, that changed drastically. I would have a drink occasionally, but I rarely felt the need, nor the desire, to get "buzzed" or drunk anymore. I was tempted on occasion, but I knew that I just couldn't "go there" anymore.
In the last few months, I have realized that I don't even like the physical effect which *one* alcoholic drink has on me. My mind becomes a bit cloudy, and I am more tempted to sin by joking carelessly or laughing at things which displease God.
Therefore, I am cutting alcoholic drinks completely out of my life. I'm not legalistic about it-- other Christians can drink around me if they choose (drink, not get drunk). I just don't like the effect that alcohol has on me. Personally, I am far more likely to be attracted to a woman who does *not* drink than to one who does (although again, I don't want to be legalistic about it).
16. Caroline said the following at 5:03 AM on Mar 20:
@Carrie D (10)
Spot on! You've perfectly responded; I don't think this article is supposed to be a debate on whether Christians should drink or not, but rather on how women especially use or think about alcohol in men's perceptions of them.
I drink socially and I have no desire to impress men by taking shots or taking part in one-upmanship. How strange to impress someone by consuming more drinks! It seems ineffective to me.
17. Charlotte C. said the following at 5:36 AM on Mar 20:
Like some of the posters above, I thought drinking a leetle was okay. Well, no I was wrong. Not saying, a bit of wine will kill you, etc. Sure there are beneficial effects, but as a person that believes in God I decided not to lay a hand on things that will make me lose self-control. I respect the people above because most likely they'll have better self control than me but for most people, it ain't easy.
The people I know can coerce you to have a little more saying, hey it's only a bit, why not? They'll challenge you and try to trap you in your actions. Yeah, well I'm not going there 'cos that's a no-brainer.
The second reason (and this has got to be the biggest reason why I don't even have a bit of alcohol) is that I have young Christians to lead (I'm part of a youth ministry) and I don't want them to fall into temptation into thinking it's okay to have little here and there. You never know what Satan is up to and how he'll try trap those with little faith and self-control ('cos I was like that).
From experience, it's better abstaining from alcohol. Once I had an older Christian role model (who wasn't much of a Christian after all) entice me to have a bit. She went on like this: Hey, I'm a Christian, Charl and I'm drinking booze. It's okay 'cause even the Bible approves. Why shouldn't you? The Bible doesn't say we should restrict what we want. We have free-will, remember?
I swear, I've never ever talked to her again after that. I should've known better. She wasn't much of believer since what she said contradicted the truth completely.
In the Bible it says the same thing not to tempt another Christian or insult them by our actions. So we should always be careful.
1 Corinthians 8:9-13
9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
Well, that's my opinion on that..
Back to the topic...
I actually agree with this article. It's really sad what they call norms. I've known some girls who have completely lost their touch. They're always zoned out and bitter but they can't seem to stop partying and involving themselves with the 'thrills of the world'.
It just hits you like a ton of bricks when you find out that there is so much of this everywhere.
All the people in my class in uni all love to party, drink, smooze, smoke, etc. About less than 1% hate it -- well not even 1% but yeah.
Some call themselves Christians and tell everyone that they are (they'll blabber it really loud yabber yabber) while they'll having a smoke outside with the wrong crowd.
I don't exactly cringe like I used to, but rather, after having a deeper relationship with Christ, I get devastated and saddened everytime I see those kind of things happen.
What's even more sad is that none of them want to return to Christ.
Brian (#8), you are absolutely spot on. Once, I knew this girl who would think her looks would be the only thing that would be important in getting married to a millionaire (she told everyone her plans into 'trapping' this kinda guy and 'forcing him to marry her' LOL).
It's really a stupid thing to wish for though -- now seriously, think about it (she never studied because she thought it was useless and a distraction to her 'high-maintenance-ness').
Although she attracted guys who assured her financial future, I doubt she was ever happy. There wasn't much love in my thought since they'd always fight about money and whatnot. Well, it's true how they say what you sow is what you reap.
But in the end, I'd say that the modest woman with the gentle, quiet spirit -- who fears the Lord -- is much more attractive and worthy of praise.
Let's win this spiritual battle and lead other back to Christ.
18. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:35 AM on Mar 20:
This is especially dangerous behavior for women because many "date rapes" involve the woman consuming too much alcohol.
19. Patricia said the following at 10:52 AM on Mar 20:
I really think the big problem is women seeking attention from men. Too many women validate themselves by this attention. Wouldn't it be great for a culture shift to occur by men actually seeking and being attracted by what is Godly? Not to say there aren't men out there that do this, but it is definitely not the cultural mind set.
20. Craig M said the following at 11:21 AM on Mar 20:
So the proposed solution here is for women to not seek attention from men? Yeah, good luck with that. Human nature is what it is. Women are always going to want attention from men. Place some reasonable limits on what you're willing to do to get that attention rather than pretending that you shouldn't want it at all.
And we're all aware that Christ's first miracle was turning water into wine at a party so that it could roll into the next six hours unhindered, right? Just asking.
21. Christina (in green) said the following at 11:43 AM on Mar 20:
Ok...
I have to confess, I thought men were impressed by women who could hold their alcohol.
But that means drink a lot and not get drunk.
However, I think they are more impressed if you walk away without any sign you've been drinking than if you try to prove something and trip over your feet on the way to the bathroom.
22. Kate (who go into law school!) said the following at 12:21 PM on Mar 20:
So, men prefer women who drink less- I guess they don't want to share? :)
Bad joke aside, I think college students regardless of gender could do with a little less alcohol. When did Thursday become part of the weekend? Drinking to impress guys is a bad idea- think about the kind of guy who is going to be impressed with a lower resistance, stumbling when walking and poor decision making. That doesn't really scream husband material. This goes for guys too.
Frankly, the attitude towards alcohol in college bothers me, It's almost like you're entitled to it. As someone of age, I occasionally indulge in a frozen cosmopolitan or good glass of wine. Note the word 'a.'
However, I don't drink to excess, like I don't eat to excess, or shop to excess. Like credit cards, alcohol is for responsible adults.
Of course, this post is biased. I live in a college neighborhood, next to a bar. (The rent is cheap and I'm avoiding debt.) The so-called future of America kept me up till 3am last night.
23. Ashley Harris said the following at 12:40 PM on Mar 20:
Kate (who got into law school!),
When did you get in? Congratulations!
24. Kate (who got into law school!) said the following at 1:14 PM on Mar 20:
Thanks! I found out last week. I still can't stop smiling about it. Or jumping up and down. Or squealing. :)
25. Renee said the following at 5:05 PM on Mar 20:
I'm glad there is a discussion on drinking. I think it is greatly needed for college age people as well as people in their 20's. Since when did every social gathering have to have alcohol? I know I spent many lonely nights in my dorm because of Christian friends having the need to go drink on Thursday nights. It was also sad to see more Christian friends at the bars than at the activities at the different Christian organizations on campus.
I hope that those Christians who do drink remain sensative to their friends who don't. Sometimes the ones who don't believe in drinking take quite a bit of abuse from other peoples opinions and are called legalists for their personal convictions against drinking. Many times they are very lonely because of being left out of social activities. I have known people who I don't think ever felt comfortable drinking, but they did it despite their convictions because they were just so lonely and felt a need to be in the social circle. I see this as causing a "brother" to stumble. I've heard too many stories from Christians friends who have been bothered by their conscience after drinking.
I personally think drinking has become too much a part of our lives as Christians.
26. Leah said the following at 10:20 PM on Mar 20:
kaj (4) - a doctor told my brother- and father-in-law to drink more red wine to combat a problem they have. They are very 'shaky' which is especially noticeable in their hands- if they were to hold their hands out straight, they'd noticeably shake. My brother is just as bad (somewhat worse I believe) but he is significantly younger and has no reason to see a doctor about it. But when my in-laws mentioned it to a doctor, he recommended red wine. Studies have also shown low amounts of red wine can be beneficial for your heart.
Rachael, juice is not alcoholic. Fermented juice is, and that is called wine :P
Christina - "holding" your alcohol is not "drinking a lot and not getting drunk". It is drinking a lot and not APPEARING drunk. I can think of two particular guys I know (not Christians) who can hold their alcohol very well, but I know they're still completely drunk. An excellent example of this is a famous youtube clip. A cop pulls over a guy she suspects is drink-driving. She gives him all these tests- say the alphabet backwards, walk in a straight line, etc etc. He passes them all with flying colours. They have a bit of a friendly chat, the "walk in a straight line" turns into him showing off some dance moves and the cop replying "wow, you can dance really well." He replies "yeah but I can only do it coz I'm drunk." She burst out laughing at him and hauled him off into the police car. He can hold his alcohol. He was still drunk.
Charlotte C said I respect the people above because most likely they'll have better self control than me but for most people, it ain't easy.
Umm... not necessarily true. 75% of under-25 Christians I know drink alcohol. I've only ever seen one of them come anywhere near drunk. They all know their limits. Some people, like small girls, can only drink 1 or 2 drinks in a night. Bigger guys, like my husband, can drink 3 (as well as a meal- food helps with dilution of alcohol) and be fine. Yeah, some people shouldn't drink alcohol because they have troubles drawing the line. Most people I've met don't.
Also, I'm a kids' youth group leader and I doubt any of them know which of their leaders drink or not.
Re: the original post... Personally, I don't think I know any girls who drink to attract guys. Most of the people I hang out with are Christians, but even among the non-Christians, I can think of maybe one girl who might drink to attract guys.
27. Craig M. said the following at 2:22 AM on Mar 21:
Renee--with all respect, what do you make of the fact that Christ and the apostles all drank wine regularly? That Christ's first miracle was providing alcohol to a wedding party? That communion was instituted with the drinking of wine?
I'm no lush--I don't drink to excess and never have. But I don't understand the "Christian" argument against drinking per se.
28. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:35 AM on Mar 22:
Congratulations Kate (who got into law school).
If you haven't gotten the book already, one book I recommend is "Law School Confidential". Obviously, you can ignore the parts regarding being accepted into law school (except if you want to work at a NLJ 250 firm), but it contains a lot of useful info.
29. Jen said the following at 12:19 PM on Mar 22:
I am currently studying abroad at a university in Scotland, and I have seen (and unfortunately, experienced) the truths of this article firsthand. I have chosen to put down a few drinks, knowing that the person I was interested in was there. It's horribly unattractive.
30. John said the following at 1:42 PM on Mar 22:
Lola, the benefits of alcoholic beverages are because of the antioxidants, which are found in equal or greater measures in grape juice, cranberry juice, pomegranate juice, et cetera.
31. John said the following at 8:53 AM on Mar 23:
"Renee--with all respect, what do you make of the fact that Christ and the apostles all drank wine regularly?"
Where did you get this mistaken idea from?
Where in the bible does it say that Christ and the apostles all drank wine regularly?
"That Christ's first miracle was providing alcohol to a wedding party?"
Where does it say in the bible that Christ's first miracle was providing alcohol to a wedding pary?
"That communion was instituted with the drinking of wine?"
Really, it was? When? By who? What "wine" do you speak of?
32. Craig M said the following at 9:13 AM on Mar 23:
John--are you kidding me? You're really unfamiliar with Christ turning water into wine at a wedding? Are you serious?
33. kaj said the following at 10:40 AM on Mar 23:
Yes, I am all aware of the studies (which I have been told are often sponsored by the alcoholic beverage industry) about the benefits of red wine to the heart. But from what I know about alcohol and some of my own health problems, the risks outweigh the benefits.
I appreciate those who respect my choice not to drink. Fortunately, I never had to go through the peer pressure from underage drinkers during high school or college.
Renee (Comment #25)- I agree with your thoughts wholeheartedly. I have friends who do drink "recreationally" and "moderately."
But I also know some who intentionally plan to get "wasted" at social gatherings. And I've seen how their behavior changes when they really have had one too many. While such are "of age" I still feel sad about that.
Honestly, I'm holding out for a non-drinker for a husband.
34. John said the following at 11:05 AM on Mar 23:
Craig,
Are YOU kidding? You're really unfamiliar with the fact that you said "alcohol" NOT "wine" in your post? Are you serious?
35. Jacob M. said the following at 11:36 AM on Mar 23:
My guess is that John is a subscriber to the theory that the "wine" referred to in the Bible is unfermented grape juice. I don't think there's anything to this, but if you've never heard it before and you're curious, you'll find plenty of references to the idea if you Google it.
36. Craig M said the following at 12:45 PM on Mar 23:
John--I'm genuinely perplexed by you. Do you not understand that wine is alcoholic? I'm aware that, say, vodka and whiskey had not been invented in classical/biblical times. But wine was most definitely alcoholic then as now, which is why both classical history and the Bible are filled with consequential stories of people who became drunk with wine. Alexander the Great killed a friend in a drunken rage; Alcibiades was famous for his drunken outrages in Athenian society; Mark Antony and Sulla were both known for their overindulgences; Noah was shamed when he became drunk. Obviously the intoxicating effect of wine was well known in the time of Christ. And the drinking of wine, ideally in moderation, was common practice in the classical world, including the Middle East. Any serious historian can tell you that.
So again....what are you talking about?
37. Katrece said the following at 2:29 PM on Mar 23:
I'm in my mid-twenties and rarely drink. I've had *a* drink on no more than 10 occasions. Drinking doesn't really appeal to me. I don't wait for a "fog" to come over me to know when to stop. An attempt to impress a guy by drinking has never been my goal. If it was, I have failed miserably :) As others have said, living in a Christ-honoring way will draw someone with similar values. Obviously, that doesn't include throwing yourself at someone, or worldly seduction.
Craig (#20), I agree. It is frustrating to see/hear so many people pretend that women don't/shouldn't want to seek the attention of men. It seems to be a recurring theme in some parts of the Christian community. This community includes wildly successfull authors like Josh Harris- enough said.
38. Cassandra said the following at 2:34 PM on Mar 23:
Jacob M. #35
"My guess is that John is a subscriber to the theory that the "wine" referred to in the Bible is unfermented grape juice. I don't think there's anything to this, but if you've never heard it before and you're curious, you'll find plenty of references to the idea if you Google it."
Interesting. I've always wondered how prohibitionists explained away all the Biblical references to wine. If it's grape juice, I don't know how the old wineskins/new wineskins metaphor would make any sense though, since it's the process of fermentation and the gasses that are released that would cause the wineskins to burst.
39. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 2:50 PM on Mar 23:
Craig M. (#27) said:
I'm no lush--I don't drink to excess and never have. But I don't understand the "Christian" argument against drinking per se.
--------------------------------------
I think a lot of the "Christian" arguement against drinking comes from Paul's teaching in Romans about how there are things that may be permissable, but not beneficial; and about not causing a "weaker" brother/sister to stumble by your actions. Both of these are valid "arguements" for Christians not drinking.
Think about it: In most (maybe not all, but the majority of situations) does drinking alcohol really have a beneficial reason? Or is it just something to do cuz everyone else is?
Or I think about a friend I have who has had a drinking problem and is now not drinking. The worst thing the rest of my freinds and I can do when we're spending time with him is drink, because it is a temptation to him that could very easily cause him to stumble. Just because the rest of us may be okay with having a drink, doesn't mean that we should if it could cause a brother in Christ, who has had a problem with alcohol in the past, to stumble.
A Christian may also have personal reasons for choosing to not to drink alcohol. For myself, I have watched too many people in my family struggle with exactly the same thing and so I have chosen not to drink ever. It doesn't matter that there are miracles in the Bible where Jesus turned water into wine, or that drinking wine without getting drunk is seen as okay in the Bible. I have seen firsthand and know how easy it is to slip down the rode of it becoming too much, and so I won't go there.
There are many reasons why Christians choose not to drink. And I don't think that the correct response is to come back at them with the arguement that "Jesus drank". The vast majority of Christians I know who don't drink have very valid reasons behind that could be supported by Scripture legitimately.
40. Katie P. said the following at 4:48 PM on Mar 23:
I know this is a distraction from the original post, but I am seeing an interesting idea coming from these responses and would love feedback.
It seems to me like the issue among Christians should NOT be whether it is right or wrong to drink within moderation. Neither conviction is going against Scripture, and grace should be given on both sides. To me, it seems like the issue should be whether, as Christians, we are willing to be AROUND alcohol in general. Are we willing to go to a bar and spend time with our friends who do not know Christ on THEIR turf, even if it is not our first choice? I think a common misconception, and one that I held for a long time, is that any time there is alcohol present, a wild, drunken party will automatically result. This is not always true - although these parties do, of course, exist, they are not the norm among people who are of age, even if they are not believers. Also, these parties are pretty easy to avoid :) Instead, I am referring to instances where a group of friends meet at a bar after class/work and have a beer while hanging out. Too many Christians I know avoid these situations altogether because alcohol will be present; meanwhile, the "lost stay lost." (AGAIN, as a disclaimer, I am not saying that Christians must drink in these situations if they are not comfortable with it. If a person is really confident in their convictions, it is not a big deal to their friends that they are drinking Sprite, but their presence suggests that the relationship is more important than the choice of beverage.) Any thoughts?
41. Jim H said the following at 5:22 PM on Mar 23:
John #34,
Do think, as Jacob suggested in #35, that "wine" in the Bible was unfermented grape juice?
That is simply not true, it may have been diluted with water (or not), but it was definitely fermented.
If "wine" in the Bible was not fermented, then why would it state precautions about drinking too much it?
All quotes from NIV
-----------------------------------
Genesis 9:21
When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.
Ephesians 5:18
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
1st Timothy 3:8
Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.
------------------------------
I am not sure how someone could get drunk on grape juice.
At the first Baptist church I attended after graduation from college, some members, including at least one Deacon, believed that "wine" mentioned in the Bible was unfermented grape juice (probably to justify thir position that ANY alcohol consumption is sin), but even a casual reading of Scripture, proves that belief to be totally false.
42. lola said the following at 5:35 PM on Mar 23:
John,
The benefits of alcohol especially red wine is not exclusive to its antioxidant contents(which play a big role by the way).
Wine's non antioxidant chemicals increase the amount of good cholesterol in blood and also play a role in preventing artery plaque formation. Rupture of these plaques precipitate heart attacks in 75% of cases
43. Kate (who is applying to law school!) said the following at 9:44 PM on Mar 23:
If we're going to get into the historical role of alcohol, and I have a hunch it could go in that direction, let's remember something.
For a long time, the drinkability of water was a bit shady. Even as late as the 1700s, beer was safer to drink than water for some regions (such as urban England). I must confess to laziness that prevents me from drawing up a timeline of biblical events to present and the corresponding safety of drinking water, but it's something to think about. It makes sense that drinking beer and wine would be more common if you go back to before modern sanitation- you're not going to get dysentery from the beer.
Confidential to the patrons of the bar next to my apartment- fear of dysentery is not an excuse to get incredibly drunk and keep me up till 3 am.
Also, I am an insufferable know-it-all. :)
44. Kate said the following at 7:01 AM on Mar 24:
This blog I read today seemed pertinent to the discussion here: http://proof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/your-signature-cocktail/
The author writes about what a choice in drink suggests about what kind of person you are, and mentions how the type of drinks consumed by TV or movie characters also are part of character development.
Readers of this blog who are not familiar with alcoholic beverages may not find much meaning in distinguishing between them, but I would be interested to see if they still have some of the same stereotypes. Like what does a martini, shaken not stirred show us about James Bond?
She also writes about how people may not always be drinking their drinks of choice and the dilemmas surrounding why they aren't. The reasons behind it appear to be mostly socially motivated. So maybe it's not just "how much" girls think guys want to see them drink, but also "which drinks." And maybe it's not just girls either, but guys as well!
45. Ashley Harris said the following at 8:51 AM on Mar 24:
Hey Guys,
This is an interesting round table discussion about drinking. Check it out if you have a minute.
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2009/03/ur_video_is_dri.html
Oh yeah, the views reflected in this link are not the views of Boundless or Focus on the Family. I am posting this as an individual ;)
46. Craig M said the following at 9:57 AM on Mar 24:
Tamara--you don't need to convince me that drunkenness is a negative thing, and of course people may have many, many good reasons to choose not to drink. All I'm saying is that there's no specific Christian prohibition on drinking per se--obviously, as Christ and the disciples all clearly drank wine and Christ approved it implicitly by providing it at a wedding. Personally, I would draw the line at getting just a little "toasty" with some good friends. Beyond that, people tend to embarrass themselves, induldge in behavior they wouldn't otherwise, and then become a burden on their friends via illness. But that's me.
47. John said the following at 10:00 AM on Mar 24:
"John #34,
Do think, as Jacob suggested in #35, that "wine" in the Bible was unfermented grape juice?
That is simply not true, it may have been diluted with water (or not), but it was definitely fermented.
If "wine" in the Bible was not fermented, then why would it state precautions about drinking too much it?"
Sorry, but that simply is true. Do a word study and see which words are used for wine and the meanings they can have based on context.
"I am not sure how someone could get drunk on grape juice."
That should be easy, they can't. Why would you not be sure of something so simple and silly?
"At the first Baptist church I attended after graduation from college, some members, including at least one Deacon, believed that "wine" mentioned in the Bible was unfermented grape juice (probably to justify thir position that ANY alcohol consumption is sin), but even a casual reading of Scripture, proves that belief to be totally false."
Keep saying that all you want, you're still wrong.
Get back to me when you've done a little studying.
48. John said the following at 10:06 AM on Mar 24:
"Do you not understand that wine is alcoholic?"
Do you not understand that the word "wine" in the bible refers to both fermented and unfermented grape juice?
"But wine was most definitely alcoholic then as now, which is why both classical history and the Bible are filled with consequential stories of people who became drunk with wine. "
Wine was most definitely NOT always alcoholic then as now.
"Any serious historian can tell you that."
Can you name this common logical fallacy?
Nobody is more humorous than he who thinks he knows it all.
LOL.
49. John said the following at 10:45 AM on Mar 24:
Here, I'll help ya all by saving you time searching:
http://www.alcoholandthebible.org/unfermented_wine.htm
50. Jeremy said the following at 11:21 AM on Mar 24:
"Do you not understand that the word "wine" in the bible refers to both fermented and unfermented grape juice?"
This is true, the word that appears as "wine" is most modern translations can refer to either fermented or unfermented grape juice, so those that argue for a Biblical prohibition on alcohol are (slightly) less ridiculous than they may at first appear.
But it is quite obvious that many of the passages in question, including those from Jesus's life, involve fermented wine. In particular, the wedding at Cana in which Jesus changes the water into wine -- John 2:10 makes it clear that this was alcoholic. So those on the prohibition side are left in the uncomfortable position of claiming Jesus provided a multitude of wedding guests a beverage it would have been sinful for them to drink. Furthermore, he ordered it to be brought to the master of the banquet for tasting!
51. Craig M said the following at 11:49 AM on Mar 24:
John--I continue to be mystified by you. I really, honestly, can't even tell what you're arguing. Are you saying that wine was "definitely not" alcoholic in biblical/classical times? I think you owe a straight answer to that question, so that we can all at least understand you. Do you think that Christ provided only grape juice, and not wine, at the wedding feast? Again, a straight answer to that question would be very illuminating. Do you think that Christ was referring only to grape juice in the parable of the "new wineskins," even though that would render His point incomprehensible?
It always strikes me as curious that sometimes the "strictest" biblical literalists are willing to contort scripture endlessly to justify some favored teaching. The obvious implication of scripture is that alcoholic wine was a regular part of Christ's culture, that He provided it at a wedding feast, that He used it in illustrations and parables in a neutral way, that He never spoke against it, and that He initiated communion with it. The church understood all of that for about 1600 years before teetotalers began to try to tie their (admirable) self-discipline to Christianity.
52. Jo said the following at 12:00 PM on Mar 24:
Jeremy:
"John 2:10 makes it clear that this was alcoholic."
Point well made. Can't believe I've never noticed the clear implications of that verse.
53. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 2:38 PM on Mar 24:
Craig M. (#46)---I wasn't trying to convince you that drunkenness was wrong, I figured there was agreement on that. I was simply pointing out that while Scripture may not explicitly say that Christians shoulnd't drink, it does include teaching that should at least make Christians think through their choice to drink or not.
Considering Ephesians clearly says that we should not get drunk on wine, but be filled with the Spirit, I would never think that I had to convince someone else who appears to know the Bible, as you seem to Craig, that drunkenness was srong. But, as I discovered with my friend who is an alcoholic, it's not the idea of getting drunk that cause him to stumble, but just those around him choosing to have a drink (yes, just one!). And so, out of a desire to help out other Christians, there may be times when, no matter our personal convictions about drinking, we should not drink. Just because we're okay with it doesn't mean we should just go ahead and drink without considering how that choice will impact the other people around us. Part of being a part of the family as a Christian is that we make the choice to give up some of our freedoms for the sake of not causing a brother/sister to stumble.
54. Craig M said the following at 2:57 PM on Mar 24:
Tamara--agreed, of course. I went on a few dates several years ago with a girl who (quite embarrassed) admitted to me early on that she couldn't drink because she was a recovering alcoholic. Obviously I embraced iced tea and coffee at that point. :)
55. Jim H said the following at 4:14 PM on Mar 24:
John #47
As others have already pointed out, the story of John 2 clearly refers to fermented drink as indicated by use of the phrase μεθυσθῶ σιν (ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament). Also this can be inferred by a careful reading of the English text because of the master of the banquet’s comment that people normally serve the choice wine first and the cheaper wine later.
You clearly believe in a interpreting Scripture based on preconceived assumptions (in your case - ANY consumption of alcohol is bad) rather than letting each text speak for itself. I suppose we all have some preconceived assumptions – for example I believe the Word of God is inerrant and totally consistent. And because of this, I believe you are wrong.
Let’s look at Proverbs 23:20-21 (NIV)
20 Do not join those who drink too much wine
or gorge themselves on meat,
21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,
and drowsiness clothes them in rags.
First of all, it is clear that fermented drink is that which is referenced because verse 21 talks about the result – drunkenness. But the absolutely critical qualifier is “too much.” If this were an absolute prohibition (rather than a stern warning about the dangers of overindulgence), the text would have said so – something to the effect “do not join those who drink wine”
56. Jim H said the following at 4:29 PM on Mar 24:
Craig M #51,
I read the text from the link John provided and his belief (I think) is that the Greek and Hebrew words for wine could refer either to unfermented grape juice or fermented wine and use of context is necessary to discern which version is referenced in a given passage. I have done further research beyond the link he provided and believe that to be true. John MaCarthur wrote a fairly comprehensive article on this here.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1937.htm
But as I pointed out in my previous post, there are verses where the context IS clearly the fermented version and the Bible does not absolutlely condemn consumption (but does have stern warnings about drinking too much and how excessive alcohol consumption can destroy lives).
57. BDB said the following at 4:32 PM on Mar 24:
Craig M (#51) wrote:
>>The church understood all of that for about 1600 years before teetotalers began to try to tie their (admirable) self-discipline to Christianity. <<
Actually, there is an older reference: The Nazarite Vow, of which I quote the relevant portion from Numbers 6:1-4:
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, 3 he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. 4 As long as he is a Nazirite, he must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.
58. Craig M. said the following at 11:18 PM on Mar 24:
BDB--that's great. So since the Nazarites did it, should Christians not eat grapes or raisins or cut their hair? What does the oath of Samson have to do with the church? My point was that the Christian church recognized the reality of Christ's consumption and provision of wine for centuries. What does an Old Testament Israelite sect that applied by its own terms only to its own very limited membership have to do with that?
Jim H--fair enough. My point, again, was that there is no question that the alcoholic nature of wine was not "invented" later in history, but was commonly known in the classical/biblical era, and that scripture makes it clear that Christ did not speak against the use of alcohol but in fact provided it to revelers at a wedding party. And this is all--obviously, indisputably--true.
59. John said the following at 7:17 AM on Mar 25:
Jeremy,
No, you are left in that position by your assertion that Jesus would provide people with alcohol for the express purpose of intoxication.
Now go figure out your hypocracy.
60. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:37 AM on Mar 25:
John (#48),
Nobody is more humorous than he who thinks he knows it all.
Like you?
61. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:43 AM on Mar 25:
Concerning your comment in #57, BDB:
So, to embrace such a vow, you'd be abstaining from unfermented grape juice as well?
62. Jeremy said the following at 9:10 AM on Mar 25:
"No, you are left in that position by your assertion that Jesus would provide people with alcohol for the express purpose of intoxication.
Now go figure out your hypocracy."
That is simply false. If God expressly provides something (say food, for example) then that something is not inherently wrong. However abuses often still are wrong (think gluttony). Similarly, Jesus expressly providing alcoholic wine for the wedding indicates that consuming alcohol is not itself sinful, although abuses thereof (such as drunkenness) may still be.
As with many, many areas of behavior in the Christian life, the consumption of alcohol involves a careful balance. And as with almost any area of balance, there are many who choose to avoid the question altogether by abstaining entirely, which is a fine and admirable choice. The problem creeps in, as it so depressingly often does, when a person takes their personal choice on an issue of balance and tries to make it binding on all believers.
63. Charlotte C. said the following at 9:55 PM on Mar 25:
http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html
Umm.. this site says it nicely, guys.
64. John said the following at 11:42 AM on Apr 1:
No Christina...
Like you!
65. John said the following at 11:44 AM on Apr 1:
"That is simply false. If God expressly provides something (say food, for example) then that something is not inherently wrong. However abuses often still are wrong (think gluttony). Similarly, Jesus expressly providing alcoholic wine for the wedding indicates that consuming alcohol is not itself sinful, although abuses thereof (such as drunkenness) may still be."
There you go again assuming the wine was alcoholic.
So you're saying "drunkenness" isn't sin?
"As with many, many areas of behavior in the Christian life, the consumption of alcohol involves a careful balance."
Nope. No balance, just abstinence.
Case closed.