When They're Gay
by Ted Slater on 02/24/2009 at 11:17 AM
I'm straight. Sure, I've gone with some friends to gay bars and have been on a "date" with another guy that ended with an awkward kiss goodnight, but the truth is that I've never had sexual feelings for another man. I'm an ever-straight.
And so when I interact with guys whose affections are toward other guys, I can get uncomfortable. What can I say? How can I even relate?
Well, you know what, I absolutely can relate. Though I've never had a homosexual thought in my life, like those who feel the draw of same-sex attraction (SSA), I have experienced my heart drawn toward things that Scripture says are unacceptable.
And recognizing that, says author Mike Ensley in today's featured Boundless article, "When They're Gay," is the right place to start in our relationships with those whose lifestyles might seem so foreign to us: Instead of explaining your gay friend's experience to them,
... lay yours out in the open. Let them see how God is transforming your heart and mind to be more like His. Have the courage to share the struggle you face in submitting to Christ in the midst of your naturally tempted self -- your orientation, if you will.
Hm. Maybe my life isn't as "ever-straight" as I'd like others to think it is.
Mike covers a lot of ground in his article. He talks, for example, about the "peace" that some gay-identified men and women experience when they finally come to embrace their SSA:
... there's a natural relief a person experiences when any internal conflict has been settled.... Split devotions lead to instability. Resolve -- whether it's to do wrong or right -- brings relief. That relief can easily be mistaken for holy peace -- especially by someone who desperately wants it to be just that.
This heartbreaking article reminds me of one that Mike wrote late last year, "Ray Boltz's Hunger for Community." After exploring the issues that contributed to Ray's succumbing to the pressures of SSA, Mike challenged us to see how we may be facilitating the alienation that so many gay-identified men and women feel.
His conclusion in that article remains relevant in this article.... No, let me start that again. His conclusion in that article remains relevant in all of life: Let's pray for repentance -- for ourselves first.
I pray for repentance: First for myself, the worst sinner I know.
1. Matthew said the following at 11:34 AM on Feb 24:
I really liked this article because it really hammered home the Gospel-- that yes, we are sinners on a rampage to destroy ourselves and hurt others, and our sin offends God. Yet God's response to our disobedience and rebellion was loving & humble self-sacrifice, and that is how we ought to relate to others still trapped in rebellion.
And, as Martin Luther posted on that church door in Wittenburg, Jesus Christ wills "that the whole life of believers should be repentance."
2. Cassandra said the following at 11:45 AM on Feb 24:
I'm going to be honest. These "let's have more compassion for gays" posts make me uncomfortable.
3. Trisha said the following at 11:49 AM on Feb 24:
I heard a report on the news a few years ago that if you are tomboyish that you might be gay. I'm in my late 30s and not a girly girl....I'm tomboyish. Most people in the world make thing if you have never been interested in a guy in "that way" that you must be gay but I don't believe that is true. I'm what the world calls a plain jane and no guy has ever been intersted in me in that way....that is ok with me because I have seen too many people, Christian and non-Christian, make mistakes in those kind of relationships wit the opposite gender plus there is a lot of divorce on both sides of my family. Because I was teased as a child/tween/teen I couldn't handle the other person in that kind of relationship making the mistake(s) if we were in that kind of relationship (I know I wouldn't make the mistakes but hoe can I be sure they wouldn't?). I have trouble as it is just making friends with people of either gender because of the lack of common interest with other females and for other reasons with the opposite gender (the worst of the teasing I think in Jr. and Sr. high was from males).
4. Christina (in green) said the following at 12:08 PM on Feb 24:
This came at a good time =p
Just met a guy who I'm sure I'll have more interaction with in the future who is gay.
I know that eventually, my beliefs are going to crop up. And I was considering how I'd respond if he questioned me.
Pretty much exactly what was written in this article.
5. Elizabeth H. said the following at 12:08 PM on Feb 24:
I'm from Northampton, MA -reportedly the most lesbian-friendly city in the U.S.
As a conservative Christian, I cringe and start to prepare an argument each time I hear something about "gay rights" come up in conversation.
Just this past Sunday, our pastor was encouraging us that our first goal should be to love Christ and love people (he was referring specifically to homosexuals). I could feel the argument rising in my mind "But people are WRONG."
Sometimes I'm so sure I'm right, that I just can't wait to make my arguments. And I realize that when I'm focusing on being right, I'm putting love as a lesser priority. I need to repent for that as well.
6. Grace said the following at 12:09 PM on Feb 24:
Mike writes, "a heart-change is a more gradual process, and the people most influential in that process are the ones who keep pursuing your heart, keep lavishing that infuriating yet irresistible kindness on you — despite not playing along with your rebellion."
Any practical suggestions on how to lavish love and kindness on someone, without playing along with their rebellion?
7. Sara said the following at 12:10 PM on Feb 24:
Cassandra, what about "Let's have more compassion for the Unsaved" articles? Being unsaved is an even more all-encompassing lifestyle than being gay.
Unless you simply mean you're disgusted at gayness; I remember how I was like that until I went away to school.
I remember a big turning point for me came when I was walking to the subway and a couple of gay guys were in front of me, kind of shy and flirting and brushing the backs of their hands together until they finally held hands.
It was such a lightbulb moment; it was *sweet*, and I totally recognized myself in how they were acting; ... I'd had it in my head that all gay people were sex-crazed heartless heathens or something. (!)
I still thought homosexuality was wrong at that point, but I realized that fwiw homosexuality in practice is just like any love or lust in practice. Even if you're anti-gay and plan to stay that way, I think it's still important to understand that!
8. Liz said the following at 12:11 PM on Feb 24:
Cassandra (#2):
Why?
9. brx said the following at 12:18 PM on Feb 24:
I can see a majority of Christians still use the term "gay" as an identity for people. If "gay" is an identity affirmed by our use of the word, then similar to one's ethnicity or religion, we have little footing for _any_ discrimination based on whether someone has that identity.
So, please, conciously work to stop it; let's not label people with their sin struggles as if it is their innate identity. People are not gay; but they may have same-sex-attraction issue(s).
Grace & peace
10. Christina (in green) said the following at 12:35 PM on Feb 24:
Grace (#6)
Steadfastly refusing to agree in any way, shape, or form that their rebellion is good or in their best interest.
Oddly enough, despite popular opinion, its doable!
11. Cassandra said the following at 1:03 PM on Feb 24:
Because in many churches (like mine with something like a 15% gay membership and the ordination of homosexuals) compassion over time morphs into exoneration. Christians tend to see either one problem or the other as being worst. Some see that people with SSA are being shut out from the community. From my POV, I see the problem of watering down Scripture as being a more pervasive problem in contemporary Christianity than a lack of compassion towards gay people.
"Love is sentimental, not effacious, accepting, not transforming. That is the beginning of heresy."
12. Matthew said the following at 1:25 PM on Feb 24:
Cassandra #11,
You're right-- one of the biggest problems in our churches today is watering down Scripture.
BUT anything less than persistent, patient, and overwhelming love for others is also "watering down Scripture." The very centerpoint of the Bible is God dying a horrific death for His enemies, the people who were willingly and persistently in rebellion against Him. The sort of love that was described in the article is borne out of, I think, a deep appreciation for Scripture, and the guard against misusing it to justify sin-- whether that sin is hating & judging others or that sin is something like homosexuality.
Francis Schaeffer talked frequently about how Christian growth is borne out of doctrinal purity as expressed in love for God and radical community as expressed in love for others. You gotta have both.
You can't expect to love others in a way that Mr. Ensley talked about without relying on the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to sustain you, and you can't claim to take the Bible seriously unless you're trying to love others in the way that Mr. Ensley talked about.
13. IMO said the following at 2:09 PM on Feb 24:
"the ordination of homosexuals"
Now that's alarming [and clearly unbiblical].
Matthew, looks like you skipped over that part.
PS I agree with what you are saying about love...keep in mind that God's love is a perfecting love.
And Scripture is clear about that as well...We love because God loved us first..basically all of 1 John...I just don't think Cassandra needs to be preached to.
14. Elizabeth said the following at 3:03 PM on Feb 24:
I admit that I haven't spoken to a guy I knew well when we were 5 years old since he announced that he was gay (maybe a couple of years ago). Granted, I hadn't spoken to him for a few years before that; life moves on, and people move apart. Still, it was fairly awkward to hear his sister defend gay orientation as something he can't help, perfectly natural, etc. (She's not gay, but of course she loves her brother, and her best friend is another gay guy that she once considered sharing rent with). By the way, he was not present when I heard her defending it. These two were like family to me (lived with me for a while when we were all little), and it kind of hurts. I just had no idea how to react, so I pretty much said nothing. (I could easily get away with that because I wasn't the only other person in either conversation.) I can pray for them, I guess, but it's one of the saddest things I'd heard in a long while.
15. Matthew said the following at 3:35 PM on Feb 24:
IMO #13,
I didn't skip over that part. Obviously this denomination is screwed up and very far lost, and they probably strayed from the Scripture a long time ago. Cassandra seemed to be saying that if we start emphasizing love to homosexuals we'll become like this denomination, and I disagree strongly! f we take the Scriptures seriously, we'll love in the way that the article talked about, and we can't love like that unless we are willing to dig into the Bible and love like Jesus.
16. Rachael Starke said the following at 3:38 PM on Feb 24:
There's a new book out by John Piper called "Finally Alive" on the doctrine of regeneration that has been incredibly helpful in increasing my love for the lost. In it, Piper lays out the extent of our deadness to our sin and our inability to know or love God. God uses His Word, given in a variety of means, to make us alive so that we repent of our sin, trust Christ, and, with the Holy Spirit's help, can now know and love God, and He adopts us forever as His children.
The ramifications of this for us as Christians as we strive to love those not yet saved (unregnerate) are enormous. God's greatest expression of love (the cross) was made to those who hated Him. This motivates me to actively pursue ways to sacrificially love homosexuals. Eat with them, take them to medical appointments, hire them to work for you, anything. Just as Jesus did. That compassion we show them is no more a "concession" to their sinfulness that was Jesus' in sitting down with the Samaritan woman and asking for a drink of water, or eating with tax gathereres.
This doctrine of regneration also transforms our relationships with other Christians now struggling with homosexual desires. If God has truly caused them to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus, their battle with sin should be treated in just the same way that the church ought to (but often doesn't) treat battles with other kinds of sin, such as covetousness, laziness and gluttony. Their identity in Christ outweighs their identity as a (former) homosexual.
I really recommend the Piper book, and appreciate the continual call to the lost these kinds of articles put out.
17. Christina (in green) said the following at 3:54 PM on Feb 24:
Matt -
I think the problem Cassandra had (and I thought she communicated clearly about it) that any talk of COMPASSION leads to an unbalanced view of what compassion is and leads to exoneration of sinful behavior.
Rather than responding with a balanced view of what Biblical Love IS.
18. Alex said the following at 3:57 PM on Feb 24:
AM I the only that wants to hear more about ted's gay date? Or his multiple trips to gay clubs?
No? Just me?
19. Matthew said the following at 4:08 PM on Feb 24:
#17 Christina (in green),
Cassandra gave a good response, but I felt like she was pretty dismissive of the problem that exists in many churches (especially the good conservative evangelicals) of not having enough compassion and genuine Biblical love for people with SSA (which is what the original article was sorta about.) I was trying to point out that the solution to both problems (watering down Scripture and lack of love) is both answers.
We shouldn't be scared of talking about compassion because it might lead to exonerating sinful behavior; if we genuinely trust the Holy Spirit to guide us and we root ourselves in the Scriptures we won't go wrong.
20. Melissa S. said the following at 5:00 PM on Feb 24:
Alex #18- No. I'm curious, too.
Sara #7- "I still thought homosexuality was wrong at that point, but I realized that fwiw homosexuality in practice is just like any love or lust in practice"
I think this is definitely debatable, based on both Romans 1 and 1 Cor 13. I think you might have been trying to say that all sins are equal- all sin is equally heinous. I would agree that all sins are equally culpable and rebellion against God. In that way, maybe I agree that homosexual lusts aren't necessarily worse than any other lusts. Then again, maybe not. Look at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. Some have made the argument that historically, rampant homosexual lust descends on cultures at the end of their times, seemingly as God's judgment on that culture.
However, I completely disagree that homosexual love is truly just like any other normal love. Based on what Biblical definition can you assert that homosexual love can be equated to "any love"?
Ted- Thanks for this blog post. Sometimes I wonder how to relate to homosexuals, as well. This is a great reminder to relate to all other sinners as a sinner myself. With repentance, knowing that I am the chief of sinners.
21. Craig M said the following at 5:41 PM on Feb 24:
Hey everyone, Boundless says it's ok to go to gay clubs and kiss guys now, so long as it's "awkward" afterwards....
Yeah, some context might be useful here.
22. Ted Slater said the following at 6:05 PM on Feb 24:
brx (#9) -- you are EXACTLY right. Calling someone "gay" can affirm or legitimize their identifying themselves as such. As you write, "People are not gay; but they may have same-sex-attraction issue(s)."
I try to keep this in mind when I edit, write headlines and write blog posts. When I *do* use the term "gay" (which isn't often), I'm really meaning "gay-identified."
Alex (#18) and Melissa S. (#20) and Craig M (#21) -- I had a number of friends after high school who identified as gay. They were part of the group I hung out with and sometimes smoked pot with. And they went to gay clubs and bars and porn shops from time to time.
I was nominally Christian, participating some in the Christian culture, but not having a meaningful relationship with the Lord. I lacked a lot of discernment. My mind was what you could call "unredeemed."
On one occasion, I went with my friends on one of their outings. I remember it being awkward being hit on in one of the clubs we went to. And I felt uncomfortable just hanging out while one of my friends was in the other room with someone they just met. In retrospect, I do not think it was wise to accompany them on that particular, um, outing. I do not, um, advocate that anyone do what I did.
The date.... Again, before my relationship with the Lord commenced, a co-worker invited me to go with him for a burger after work. I did, and I could sense something wasn't normal when he offered to put the condiments on my burger (we went to a Fudruckers, where you put your own lettuce, tomato, etc. on the burger after they cook it for you). I was chill, and went with the flow, partly because that was my personality and partly because I didn't want him to feel awkward. (That reaction that I had is called "fear of man," by the way, something I now realize that the Lord does not approve.)
Anyway, after he took me to a gay club, I clued into the fact that we weren't just "going for a burger after work." When he dropped me off at my apartment, he leaned over and gave me a kiss. I finally got up the nerve to tell him that I didn't feel comfortable with that, he said he understood, and I left the car.
Again, I should have navigated that a *whole* lot better, with more clarity and integrity and less fear. This sounds really strange, but I can see how I defrauded the guy by not making it clear early on that I was straight.
Oh, my weird life.
I've got more stories that illustrate my sinfulness in case any of you are interested in hearing them.
23. Melissa S. said the following at 7:32 PM on Feb 24:
Thanks, Ted!
24. Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D. said the following at 8:27 PM on Feb 24:
See:
Handling the barrage of homosexual half-truths: Resisting strategies that try to make us compromise God’s Word by Adrian Bates, CMI;
Are all sins equal? by Rev. Dr Peter Barnes;
Same-Sex Divorce by Bill Muehlenberg.
25. Nathan said the following at 8:37 PM on Feb 24:
Since I am gay, I know exactly what Mike Ensley is talking about.
I've experienced an immediate wall that goes up as soon as a conservative Christian finds out that I'm gay. I understand why a defense goes up, but then I don't understand why it never comes down: I am very direct when I tell them that I am not trying to change their opinion regarding homosexuality being a sin, but rather how they can have a better interaction with gay people. I guess they don't want better interaction and think that they have to be at odds or else they aren't having a Biblical response. I dunno.
The following are four things Christians can do to help homosexuals, none of which are mutually exclusive:
1. Hold to a BIBLICAL VIEW of homosexuality.
2. Be OPEN and HONEST about YOUR OWN sin.
3. BE the SUPPORT a gay person needs.
4. CREATE an environment (in families, churches, peer groups, etc) that NURTURES single people rather than making them feel "less than" for being single
IMHO, you don't get to preach #1 without doing #2, #3 & #4, sorry.
#2 is what Mike Ensley's article was about.
#3 is based on the idea -- if you aren't part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. It would include something like being a soft (but firm) place to land. You will get a much better response, if a gay person knows you don't approve of homosexuality, BUT you care about him to the point of BEING whatever it is he needs rather than just referring him to some boot camp, 12-step, ex-gay thing that you found on the internet. Help him tackle his demons rather than just point them out. . .
If I had #4, I doubt that I would be where I am now. . .
26. dana111 said the following at 8:49 PM on Feb 24:
Oh boy...
No need to illustrate anymore, Ted. I know I have PLENTY of stories from my unregenerate, Hellbound past to share. Gay clubs, bisexuality, lesbianism, alcoholism, illegal drug usage, addiction to cigarettes, premarital sex, porn addiction... the list goes on and on. Gotta love the forgiveness and redemption of a loving God :)
As far as the East is from the West...
27. Sara said the following at 9:04 PM on Feb 24:
Melissa S #20,
When I said, "I still thought homosexuality was wrong at that point, but I realized that fwiw homosexuality in practice is just like any love or lust in practice",
you wrote, "I disagree that homosexual love is truly just like any other normal love. Based on what Biblical definition can you assert that homosexual love can be equated to "any love"?
I wasn't talking about the morality of homosexuality at all, I was talking just about how homosexual love in practice--the emotions and hormones and thoughts and such--feels about the same as hetero love. I had used to think that gay people were somehow really, really different, like that they were automatically shallow and crude or something.
Sometimes it seems that a lot of the anger towards homosexuality is based on disgust or weirded-outedness or fear or something, and I don't see how you can have that response if you understand that gay people feel the same as straight people do when they're kissing, or working up the courage to ask someone out, or whatever.
It's a small point, but it was important for me in beginning to really believe that saying "we're all human" meant anything. As a Christian I would sometimes think that being spiritually different meant I was also set apart from other humans in *every* way.
28. Alison said the following at 9:11 PM on Feb 24:
Ted,Thank you for sharing part of your testimony. May your story remind us that Christ came to redeem us from our sin. I find often in Christian Community many of us who have been saved for most of our lives sometimes forget to the need to share compassion and love with the lost. We hear the word Gay or Homosexual and focus on the sin. Instead, we need to focus on the fact that God has come to redeem these individuals from their sin.
29. Craig M. said the following at 9:40 PM on Feb 24:
Ted--I was only kidding. But I've had more embarrassing moments than that, and done worse things. First of all the sinners, I am. Sorry if it seemed I was pointing the finger. The context does help people understand the throwaway remark though, so kudos.
30. Liz said the following at 9:47 PM on Feb 24:
I agree with this article and blog.
I think that one of the biggest problem with the entire "gay" situation is that people focus on it too much. Let me raise a sign and say, "HELLO! A SIN IS A SIN!" Your sin of lying to your boss when you were five minutes late, but you told him you were on time...SAME AS HOMOSEXUALITY.
It doesn't seem that in human's minds...but aren't we always trying to justify ourselves?
I won't get into the details of why Christians have such a problem with Homosexuality because I am sure that everyone is aware.
My brother and my cousin (and her wife) are gay. I experience this first hand. It's confusing to know what to do, but I've also discovered that sometimes you just gotta pray: our first line of defense. Say what you gotta say...and say it RESPECTFULLY and tactfully, as you would want to be treated. And then let it go. They know what you think...and from that point on, just love them and pray hard!
We are such anal control freaks and can't handle the thought of allowing things to be God's to take care of. He calls us to love and to pray. Remember, most of the time you are talking to your friend who might be gay is usually not in the right frame of mind. I find and have found that it's usually the case. But again, say it once...then drop it. Repeating yourself is not necessary, because they aren't idiots.
That's just my two cents.
31. beatrice81 said the following at 12:06 AM on Feb 25:
I've probably got more than the average number of gay friends/family (one older sister, two cousins, one college roomate, and, like 5 or 6 grad school friends) -- and I can honestly say that not a single one of them is "struggling" with their sexual orientation. Maybe this is because I'm from a pretty liberal Northeastern town (very close to Northampton, in fact, which happens to be one of my favorite small towns; great bookstores and coffeeshops), but if Boundless is claiming that all my gay friends and relatives are desperately delusional and their comfort with themselves is just a charade, then I'm gonna have to disagree. I'm sure Mike Ensley is perfectly qualified to speak for himself and maybe even people he's close to, but I'll trust my friends' words over the speculations of someone who has never met them.
32. Jo said the following at 1:29 AM on Feb 25:
"I've got more stories that illustrate my sinfulness in case any of you are interested in hearing them."
Haha, oh Ted. Thanks for being open. :)
33. IMO said the following at 9:46 AM on Feb 25:
Nathan #25,
I have a honest question to ask.
Let's say you are a Christian who is living the gay lifestyle (...having a same-sex relationship, etc), how should your Christian friends respond?
I ask because I think I would respond the same way I would to any friend living and enjoying a sinful lifestyle or making purposefully unbiblical choices without repentance....
Would I still be considered a friend, then?
34. Cassandra said the following at 9:51 AM on Feb 25:
When I read Ted's testimony, I'm not seeing as much sin. What I'm seeing is curiosity.
35. Jo said the following at 10:20 AM on Feb 25:
IMO:
"I ask because I think I would respond the same way I would to any friend living and enjoying a sinful lifestyle or making purposefully unbiblical choices without repentance...."
Which would be how?
36. Sara said the following at 11:04 AM on Feb 25:
beatrice81 #31
"if Boundless is claiming that all my gay friends and relatives are desperately delusional and their comfort with themselves is just a charade, then I'm gonna have to disagree."
I know; it's weird how people think that.
I hear Christians talk about how empty and hopeless non-Christians feel, and how their happiness is just a shaky facade, and I'm thinking, 'you really don't know Michelle' or whoever.
Even holding full Christian beliefs, I don't see the problem in admitting that lots and lots of no-Christians are genuinely content in this world! Their afterlife you can say what you want to about.
37. IMO said the following at 11:24 AM on Feb 25:
#35
Well when the "opportunity" comes I will definitely let you know how it plays out.
But here's a story to hold you over. :P
I was in an all-girls small group for a good 6 months. One of the girls in the small group was married. I did hear vague struggles in her marriage. One day she even exclaimed, "I can't believe I ever thought of divorce! What what I thinking?" because she was growing in the Lord and her walk was so strong. Anyway I ended up leaving the small group (I had another one I was in already) and later on I heard how this girl ended up getting a divorce. The small group girls apparently prayed and pleaded for her to reconsider divorce because they truly believed it was not on biblical grounds (yes I know there are several posts covering what "biblical grounds" really mean). Anyway the girl went through the divorce. The small group leader stopped speaking to her (think 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 here or even Luke 17:3..I'm sure there is more Scripture for this).
Anyway I heard all this through the grapevine...I was asked to pray for her...and didn't know why...so I asked..
I've been in touch with this divorced girl. I mean, we were never close friends or anything, but I talk to her every so often.
I just don't know how to go about this whole divorce-elephant in the room-thing...and from what she said, it doesn't sound like biblical grounds to me. It truly doesn't. And she doesn't regret it. Hasn't repented. She's now dating a nonChristian, hoping to change him.
I know some of her old friends (who truly are godly individuals) have decided to stop communication. But then she has other friends (who are also godly individuals) who have continued to be her friend and be supportive.
At the end of the day, Scripture does have a lot to say about church discipline and rebuking a brother and sister in Christ. And giving them over to Satan. (1 Corinthians 5:4-6)...I just don't know how I would fit in.
Of course I can easily say to her: listen I do not condone your actions and continue to be on friendly terms with her. But then again, we've not friends. But then again, she is my sister in Christ. Real life is trickier than writing words out and wanting a perfect situation and doing things perfectly.
38. SHP said the following at 12:16 PM on Feb 25:
To IMO (#37): I have been in a situation similar to the one you describe, except I was much more involved with the girl in question that you are. What I did was this: I was always very clear on what I could approve or not, based on my understanding of the Bible (in fact she did ask me what I thought - so it was not even like I had to find a way of mentionning the subject!), but I never cut contact with her and always stayed there for her when she needed it /wanted it. Over time, we kind of lost contact, but it was not my choice... To this day, I'm still not sure if everything I did was the best. Situations like this are really difficult.
39. RN2DO said the following at 12:25 PM on Feb 25:
Nathan,
Thank you for your post. I have a cousin who is gay, and I don't know how to reach him. I feel like I'm always stepping on ice not knowing what to say because I don't want to offend him or ignore him, but love and support him (but not his lifestyle). And, he's not a Christian and has been rejected by many other family members.
This is a controversial topic, one that many of us would rather not discuss, but thank you, Boundless, for bringing this up. It is a real issue in society today.
40. Ted Slater said the following at 1:57 PM on Feb 25:
beatrice81 (#31) and Sara (#36) -- it's clear you haven't read the article. The article specifically addresses the issue you bring up. Under the section "Confusion Peace," for example, the author writes, "I'd never tell a gay non-believer that they weren't really happy."
Why share your opinions about something you haven't read? Please take the time to inform yourself before letting us know what you think.
I'm being pretty blunt, yes, because you're missing an opportunity to engage this topic in an informed way.
41. Ryan said the following at 2:17 PM on Feb 25:
#36 and #31--
Hey guys,
Perhaps we need to define contentment and joy here, because being content in sin is the worst place to be (no incentive or drive to repent) and "godliness with contentment is great gain." Further, joy in godlessness--whatever shape it may take--is celebrating everything God isn't about.
Let's agree on one thing:
"In His presence is fullness of joy and at His right hand are pleasures forevermore." Psalm 16:11
Anything less than that is counterfeit joy, and since Satan is the father of lies, we know who those people are listening to when they tell you "I'm fine identifying myself as gay." Ensley touched on that in his article, and dismissing even the possibility (reinforced by Scripture) that a joy rooted and having is object as anything than God or what God is pleased in isn't from Him.
So to legitimize that doesn't do your loved ones any favors.
Does that make sense?
This little note here isn't meant to disrespect your friends or family, but let's be honest: they aren't in the best position to speak of joy--nor are their testimonies ones I would trust if they are listening to the Enemy, beatrice81.
42. Mike said the following at 3:14 PM on Feb 25:
#31
I tried to make the distinction in the article pretty clear. I never said that the happiness of all your gay friends is a shaky facade. In fact, I said there ARE genuinely happy people on both sides of the fence--embracing or walking away from homosexuality.
What I believe you're referring to is my statement about the "contentious" gay person. The gay person who constantly needs to argue with people who see homosexuality as a sin--and when arguing is spent, to write them off as homophobic or whatever. Those people's supposed "peace" is a facade, I'm quite sure.
But, it was in no way a generalization about all gays, which I hoped would be made plain looking at the article as a whole.
43. Sara said the following at 4:07 PM on Feb 25:
Ted#40,
I don't usually read the articles because I usually engage more and am more impressed with the comments posted here than I am with the quality of the linked-to articles, so I tend to just read the comments and reply to them. In this case you were probably right--the article was OK--, so it would've been good for me to have read it before I commented.
44. beatrice81 said the following at 10:06 PM on Feb 25:
To clarify for you, Ted: I'm commenting on the blog post, not the article. If there's a significant discrepancy between Mike's article and your characterization of same here on this page, you might want to ask yourself if your description was accurate. Putting peace in scare quotes (gay people don't have peace, they have "peace") and making assertions about the alleged desperation of gay people -- that was enough to signal to me that Mike's article was likely to be of similar caliber.
So now you're telling us that Mike's article isn't really like that? Perhaps I do owe Mike a fair hearing of his article, after all. In that case, you also own him something: an apology for the way you represented his work.
45. Liz said the following at 11:03 PM on Feb 25:
Cassandra: it seems that way, doesn't it? But curiosity is one way to rationalize sin. I know from experience.
Nathan: good post...as it seems that most people seem to agree with here. I couldn't agree more. It's nice to know that the idea of how to relate to my brother is the same as your insight. My initial reaction was rough...but I've gotten over it, and I've realized that it's a thing between him and God. I'm there to support and love him and offer advice if God ever urges.
My only problem with people who are of the SSA community is their quick reaction to anyone who doesn't agree with what they are practicing, even if the person isn't condescending about it. If they know that you don't approve, so many (not all) will just treat you like a reject and ironically like they are treated at times.
It's the same thing with people thinking that only "White" people are racist...because we know that it's the same for those who are "Black".
46. Trisha said the following at 10:15 AM on Feb 26:
What about adult women who are not what they call "girly girls" but are tomboyish?
47. Boston Matt said the following at 10:39 AM on Feb 26:
Beatrice 81,
I debated wither or not to respond to you before or after I read your comment. I thought maybe I would make something up that you said & then hear you say "that isn't what I said, go back and read it." But decided while ironic, it would just be taunting.
How can you comment on an article by just reading the comments? That's like writing a paper on a Van Gogh painting based on someone else's description and even worse, you were in the art museum, in front of the painting but put a blind fold on.
"When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise." Proverbs 10:19
I posted that article on my facebook page and got a groundswell of support from friends who thought the tone & the premise of the article were brilliant! And these are friends from Massachusetts. Sorry friend but I think you need to check your heart if you are only coming to fight with people who comment.
48. Sara said the following at 2:06 PM on Feb 26:
Boston Matt #47,
You're maybe assuming that the linked-to articles should take priority in our discussions about a given issue.
As long as Boundless is giving us a good forum here (because of the heavy moderation), wouldn't it be nice to have as many people as possible benefit from it, including people who think that the articles, being opinion pieces, don't always merit all the attention?
There can be more than one discussion going on at once, one about the article, others about whatever else the bare mention of a hot topic might inspire. Sometimes the off-topics are interestings, and with the numbering system it's not hard to navigate it all.
I guess we can't expect Boundless to take the time to read through posts that represent POVs opposite to their target beliefs, but it's hard because people can't seem to self-moderate very well online, so there aren't a lot of other good forums like this.
Such is the dilemma between freedom and order :0
49. Ted Slater said the following at 2:24 PM on Feb 26:
Sara (#48), you use the term "heavy moderation" to describe what takes place on our blog.
Not sure that's exactly accurate. Of the past 300 comments submitted, for example, we've only withheld 2. One of those was a personal insult toward me, from someone who has never commented before and whose e-mail address was fake. The other was a non sequitur against me that would have derailed a particular conversation; I personally e-mailed him, thoroughly explaining why I didn't publish his comment.
Perhaps you use the term "heavy moderation" to simply refer to our policy that we review everything before it's published?
50. Danette said the following at 4:50 PM on Feb 26:
"As long as Boundless is giving us a good forum here (because of the heavy moderation), wouldn't it be nice to have as many people as possible benefit from it, including people who think that the articles, being opinion pieces, don't always merit all the attention?"
#48- I disagree, because i think that if someone does not think that the article is worth attention, that they then have no grounds on which to criticize the article or its ideas, because they don't know anything about it firsthand.
Going off the comments will give you a very distorted view of an article- no matter WHAT it is, because of how many different viewpoints that there are.
51. Danette said the following at 4:53 PM on Feb 26:
oh. I thought of this...
I have a very interesting situation, not directly involving gay people, but involving my perspective on them, and that of my teachers. I am in nursing school, and in our books we keep having stuff about "same sex relationships" over and over and over.... and it's getting kind of overwhelming, in part because other than knowing that homosexuality is wrong and a choice... i don't know what else to think about it or how to respond to it. I'm kind of lost as to how to think of homosexuality, as well as other moral issues, when it comes to nursing care, as I will down the road after I graduate.
52. Casey (The Student Nurse) said the following at 5:03 PM on Feb 26:
Ted, thanks for being so open and honest regarding your past. Its appreciated.
53. Kare said the following at 5:06 PM on Feb 26:
Sara (48)
I agree that the comments are quite interesting, and if one is reading through them the conversation itself might be interesting apart from the article. This conversation is quite interesting.
But if you're going to join the conversation and make comments about a particluar article your comments are baseless if you haven't read it. (And Ted did provide a link to it.)
54. Leah said the following at 6:25 PM on Feb 26:
Regarding Beatrice81 & comments regarding not reading original articles: I think it's acceptable for someone to comment on a blog without reading the original article, as long as they're not casting judgments on the article based on the blog. A blog does not have to completely represent the original article; sometimes it might outline the poster's take on that article.
I also think writing "peace" is fair enough... I don't think it is saying the homosexuals' peace is fake, but just not the same as ours. The peace brought by Christ is unlike any earthly peace.
55. jd said the following at 9:47 PM on Feb 26:
i would also like to thank Ted for his willingness to be open and write about his past.
so... thanks, Ted :)
56. twilley said the following at 9:46 AM on Feb 27:
Ah-I think this article is really an interesting take--you look for ways that gay people are like you so you're not walled off from them.
Good idea--but I think the reason that the gay community seems so strange and foreign to evangelicals is that big bucks Evangelical organizations pay good money to portray them as such. I mean think about it--all the ex-gays who tell their stories for evangelical organizations have pretty similar life paths, and they don't usually end up pretty. Your organizations only give you one story--which includes abuse, drugs, emotional disturbance, etc. etc.--and then they ask you to get close to this person and then try to talk about God with them. How can you, when you have all these stories in your head about what they must be like already? No room to just listen.
Ted's article takes another tack on the issue--seems to me he's just addressing garden variety masculine insecurity.
57. Sara said the following at 2:09 PM on Feb 27:
Kare and Danette,
agreed: I didn't actually comment about the article, I commented about Christian attitudes in general. As it happened, my comments overlapped with what was in the link (that not everyone else, read, either).
Ted,
to me 'heavy moderation' is just anything apart from perfectly free speech.
Making a decision that "Wednesday's topic of discussion must be money; if you start talking about blind dates, you'll throw the whole thing off" is heavy moderation to me, as is closing the comments section of a post after taking the last word, for example.
If you have to close a comment section, you're potentially cutting off dozens of comments, none of which would be offensive because those would never make the cut, anyway. What's 'off-topic' to you is a central topic to someone else.
I'd call censoring cynical/rude/unconstructive posts 'heavy moderation', too, because if, say, Joe123 is virulently racist, readers aren't allowed to learn that truth. And instead of leaving punishment or sanctioning to the community, you do it 1984-vaporizing-style, without leaving even a small trace like "[Comment 32 censored for racism]".
I get that Boundless' main agenda isn't 'having the most democratic and free discussion possible.' That's what a lot of the rest of the internet is like, which is great, but in practice the conversation level goes way down. Boundless is refreshing and engaging, but at the cost of free speech.
58. DannieA said the following at 3:25 PM on Feb 27:
totally out there...
wow, I can't believe there is another Danette out there....it totally throws me off LOL. I guess it's a good thing I go by DannieA
59. Ebony said the following at 10:51 PM on Mar 1:
I have to agree with Cassandra it is offensive. Let's have a compassion for theives post. We could call it "When they're theives".:)LOL!!!
I know people want to preach that God is Love. And He is. But He is a God that HATES sin or you could say that He is very offended by it. And any Christian (a real one) should be offended by any sin in their own lives and those of others.
60. Laura said the following at 11:02 PM on Mar 9:
For the first time, (that I know of) I'm working with someone who is openly gay. (not open as in, in-your-face, but just matter of factly). I had such an inner struggle shortly after they started working. Why? They were really really nice! It was contraictory to the automatic wrong reaction I had to shun. Christ sets such a good example to us. He spent time with those the world would call "horrible" sinners. Not to ok the sin but to show love and compassion on those who needed it. I think it speaks volumes more to live the love of Christ than to judge people and expect them to find it and see where they're wrong.It took me a while to come to a place of accepting my co-worker as a person, but it felt so good to do so. Not their lifestyle but them as a person.