Searching for a Godly Spouse?
by Ashley Ramsey on 02/06/2009 at 10:59 AM
On Monday, February 9 the Daily Broadcast will be airing a topic that I think will be particularly interesting to the Boundless audience: The Search for a Godly Spouse. Pastor Alistair Begg will be joining Dr. Dobson and John Fuller to talk about important characteristics to look for in a future spouse. The second part of their discussion will be aired on Tuesday, February 10 followed by a special opportunity to dialog with the Boundless team about relationships.
Please join us in the Search for a Godly Spouse Forum at 4-6pm (EST) for this unique opportunity. You can register for the forum today so you'll be all set to go.
Have a good weekend friends and I'll look forward to seeing you in forum on Tuesday!
1. Matt from DC said the following at 11:56 AM on Feb 6:
Thanks for the heads up! See you there, work permitting.
2. FrankH said the following at 12:02 PM on Feb 6:
I find that all this talk finding a Godly spouse gives people the impression that Godly spouses are beyond exceedingly rare. Are they that rare?
It gets to the point that I wonder if people are overspiritualizing the whole decision of who to marry.
Personally, I think any girl (or guy) will do, so long as a good guidance would approve.
3. HollyinOhio said the following at 12:24 PM on Feb 6:
"I find that all this talk finding a Godly spouse gives people the impression that Godly spouses are beyond exceedingly rare. Are they that rare?"
Is a truly godly person exceedinlgy rare? Yes. But then I have high standards. I don't think they're standards that are impossible to meet, though.
4. Sergio M said the following at 12:30 PM on Feb 6:
I agree, I find myself lots of times overanalyzing a girl because of this whole big deal society seems to make about finding "the one," where in fact there are plenty of "ones" that I could live a happy life with. I feel God has already put lots in my path, unforunately ive either ignored them or overanaylzed them out of fear that I either wasn't good enough or they weren't for me. There is no perfect spouse.
5. Megan said the following at 12:47 PM on Feb 6:
Marriage is one of the most important decisions a person can make in his or her life (second to receiving Christ as Savior)--why, if you're a Christian, would you want to exclude God from that life-altering decision?
Why, if you're a Christian, would want to marry a person who doesn't love God or try to daily live-out Biblical principles and live with integrity, who doesn't spend time with God (praying and studying the Bible)?
I hope and pray that I one day meet such a man--I'm still hopeful that at least one exists and he isn't already married. And yes, my expectations are realistic seeing as it is God Who sets the standards, not me.
6. IMO said the following at 12:57 PM on Feb 6:
HollyinOhio said, "Is a truly godly person exceedinlgy rare? Yes. But then I have high standards."
So...does this mean you would consider yourself a truly godly person, who is exceedinlgy rare to find?
If yes, then um, that whole pride thing would reveal itself. Either that or you have been fully sanctified and reached the end of the road. ;-)
------------
Here's a tip I got when I was dating my husband...If the two of us are growing closer to the Lord and becoming more sanctified through our relationship, then maybe that's a fruit of striving to lead godly lives.
7. FrankH said the following at 1:08 PM on Feb 6:
Megan in #5 wrote:
Marriage is one of the most important decisions a person can make in his or her life (second to receiving Christ as Savior)--why, if you're a Christian, would you want to exclude God from that life-altering decision?
Totally agree. Everybody will agree that under-spiritualizing marriage is bad policy.
I'm arguing that over-spiritualizing marriage is also bad policy.
8. HollyinOhio said the following at 1:22 PM on Feb 6:
IMO said, "So...does this mean you would consider yourself a truly godly person, who is exceedinlgy rare to find? If yes, then um, that whole pride thing would reveal itself. Either that or you have been fully sanctified and reached the end of the road. ;-)"
Thanks for the bit of humor, IMO. The older I get, the more I realize that it's good to have high standards. I lowered the bar a bit too much for a couple of the guys I dated and regretted it. There are certain godly qualities I am not willing to relinquish, but with the understanding that no one will ever be the "perfect spouse." I think it was Dr. Dobson who said something like, "Keep running after God, then look to see who is running beside you." I know I botched up that quote but I don't know where to find it. :)
9. BDB said the following at 1:44 PM on Feb 6:
Will they cover how to find a flawless person who will accept me just as I am?
(Sorry - couldn't resist!)
10. HoustonGal said the following at 2:37 PM on Feb 6:
This stuff drepresses me. Instead of inspiring me, it makes me realize how un-marriable I am and always will be. I can never live up to the standards set up in these presentations, articles, checklists, etc. Just working as hard as I can and surviving every day without being laid off is my focus right now.
11. Kit said the following at 3:14 PM on Feb 6:
I think the problem with overspiritualizing this is that there is no perfectly godly person. We, if we profess Christ in our day to day lives, are all godly people. But we are still people, and that means we are fallen.
No man or woman is perfect or perfectly godly, so stop looking. Look instead for someone you get on with, who agrees with you spiritually, and who shares your worldview. The rest of your marriage will fall into place. We take it almost too seriously. There's not ONE person for everyone out there. There's many people, and you just need to settle on one. Not settle in a bad sense, but in a good sense. Decide what faults you can live with and then live with it.
12. Patricia C said the following at 3:49 PM on Feb 6:
I joke with my married friends who are always on the look out for husbands for me that I really have only two requirements of a potential husband:
1. Must be male (of the heterosexual variety, please)
2. Must be reformed (a Calvinist or at least Calvinistically inclined).
Funnily enough, that second part has been the hardest to find. Every guy I've gone out with at my reformed church has turned out to not actually be reformed. They only go to our church because their parents told them to (these men being 25-30 years old). They are either "reformed" but also Buddhist, "reformed" but not sure if God really exists, or "reformed" but also believes there are many paths to God.
I'm not looking for a young Jonathan Edwards but it would be nice to date someone who does try to love God with all his heart, soul, and mind. I think everything beyond that can be worked out between the couple.
13. Brad said the following at 4:03 PM on Feb 6:
Many of the Christian women that I know seem to think that a husband being a "provider" means buying them expensive vehicles, designer fashions, and setting them up in a 2500 square foot home, and I'm not even kidding. I'd hardly say that a woman with such priorities qualifies as "godly."
14. BDB said the following at 4:19 PM on Feb 6:
Actually, according to news reports, Sen. John Edwards is available. I didn't know he was a Calvinist, though. I did find his show on the Sci-Fi channel interesting before he ran for President.
15. Sara said the following at 4:41 PM on Feb 6:
Brad, you raise a very interesting question: what qualifies a man as a provider? If he worked hard at an important job, and yet didn't break the poverty line (but was still able just barely to pay basic bills and take care of the kids), is that enough? What if a wife could never again afford new clothes or furniture or any little extras, would the wife ever have grounds to complain? Hypothetically, which would be more importantfor a man: bringing his family out of not-too-harsh poverty, or having a maximally ethical and impactful job? (I'm wondering if anyone here will respond with a request for the big house like you've heard)
16. FrankH said the following at 5:24 PM on Feb 6:
RE #13
Brad, you should respond like this:
So ... if I buy you an expensive designer fashions, and buy a large home, then you will rate me good husband material and marry me. Okay? Good. Sign this agreement.
And I agree; Godly women should desire a man who can reasonably provide for a family, but not require super high income + net worth.
17. Sirena said the following at 6:32 PM on Feb 6:
Totally agree with you, Patricia C! The longer I wait for my man, the shorter my list of "must-haves".
Priorities and spiritual integrity is so important - that's why none of these women are your wife, Brad!!
18. Laura said the following at 7:03 PM on Feb 6:
Brad, that's exceedingly sad.......
19. Simon said the following at 7:47 PM on Feb 6:
Hi Patricia (#12),
Would you mind telling us where you are located geographically? :)
20. Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D. said the following at 9:01 PM on Feb 6:
This is good: The Myth of the Divine Matchmaker By Jason Dulle, 24 May 2004:
“When it comes to marriage there is no such a thing as “the one.” Soul mates do not exist as such. That this is so becomes immediately apparent when we consider the idea in practice. If God has destined one particular mate for every person throughout time, what would happen if just one person wasn’t “listening to God’s voice” and chose the wrong mate? It would have a domino effect that would prohibit anyone in future generations from being able to marry their soul mate.
...
“The Biblical, rational, and experiential evidence speak in one accord against the myth of the divine matchmaker. Rather than asking who we should marry the Bible asks if we should marry. Rather than teaching that God will reveal “the one,” the Bible teaches that the decision concerning who we marry is a personal choice informed by wisdom. As lovely as the notion of soul mates may be, and as spiritual as the method for finding that soul may sound, neither are Biblical concepts and thus both must be dismissed by those whose authority for faith and practice is Scripture.
...
“With Scripture as our guide we must confess that there is no room at the inn for soul mates. Reason and experience follow suit in posting their own “no vacancies” sign. The myth of the divine matchmaker is just one more Christian fairytale that’s made its way into mainstream Christian culture. As appealing as the myth may be to our romantic and spiritual nature, Scripture, not popular belief or fairy tale, must be our guide for mate selection.”
PS: I'm happily married to my
soulmatebeloved Shulamit.21. composer girl said the following at 9:11 PM on Feb 6:
Random list of questions:
-At what time of day and where will these broadcasts be aired?
-Where do we register for the forum, which is, I'm assuming, on Tuesday?
-Also, is there a way to listen to these broadcasts on the internet if one is not sure where to find it on the radio?
Thanks, Ashley! Good to see you on the Boundless team!
22. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 11:17 PM on Feb 6:
I'm male and Reformed (Reformed Baptist, that is-- but yes, Calvinistic)! :-)
However, I seem to be living in a land of pagans, Catholics, and "mainstream" (non-Reformed or anti-Reformed) evangelicals, here in New Mexico... My church is fighting the tide, to an extent, but it's a tough battle...
23. Celebrindal said the following at 8:11 AM on Feb 7:
I think the problem people are having here is with the word "godly." Godly doesn't mean perfect. There are plenty of people in the Bible who were godly, but blew it big time (think David, Sampson, Peter, etc). Godly just means that they are truly committed to following God and becoming more like Him every day. What Christian doesn't want a spouse in that category?
24. Mickey said the following at 8:38 AM on Feb 7:
Funny, I recently did this thing floating around facebook called "25 random things about me".
One of my "things" was my newly revised and much-abridged list re: my future husband. It's a list I hope I'd qualify for if a guy adopted it for his future wife:
"I’ve whittled down my “list” (I hear every woman has one) to only 2 simple but non-negotiable criteria regarding my future husband: that he truly love and be committed to the Lord, and he truly love and be committed to me…in that order and with anything else a distant third...*smile*"
The funny thing is that you still need the Lord's guidance in knowing whether someone "truly" loves Him but His guidance is always available if we really want it:o)
In my experience, when you're not in a relationship that's right for you, once you keep close to the Lord, you'll find that you have no real peace about the relationship...
25. Mickey said the following at 8:40 AM on Feb 7:
I also like this quote I recently stumbled upon..."A woman's heart should be so hidden in Christ that a man should have to seek Him first to find her."
It's credited to Maya Angelou although I'm not really sure.
26. Jacob M. said the following at 10:23 AM on Feb 7:
A few months ago I had an exchange with a blogger in Australia about the difficulty of finding a traditional (i.e., wanting to be a housewife with a traditional family life) woman in modern liberal society. While what he said wasn't specifically about finding as "Godly" a wife as possible, it was interesting nonetheless.
He said that in his mid-twenties, he went looking for a traditionally-minded girl in various church congregations and conservative political organizations. It didn't work; there simply weren't women there in the right age bracket.
What did work was giving up on finding a "ready-made" traditional girl, reasoning that one wasn't likely to exist in such a liberal society. Instead he focused on finding an apolitical girl "with potential," reasoning that she might find herself sort of naturally settling into traditional family life once she was married with children.
And that is what happened. He said he met a girl who wasn't all that crazy about her job and was apolitical, and married her. And once their baby was born, she just kind of naturally became a traditional wife. She found that she preferred staying home.
So I think perhaps we need to focus not on finding someone who is already at the "right" place in life, but rather on someone who will naturally gravitate toward the right place when drawn into the right situation (marriage.) Which I believe is a line of thinking Boundless has endorsed before, though in my recollection it's always been from the angle of how women should settle for a man who shows potential rather than already being Mr. Super-Christian-guy. But I think men need to take the same approach. Our society, and this includes the evangelical subculture, no longer raises girls to focus on becoming good wives and mothers, so if we want them to get there, we have to take them there ourselves.
27. Christina said the following at 11:21 AM on Feb 7:
I propose a definition of "godly" for the sake of unified understanding.
Godly- A sinner, lost and depraved, saved by the grace found on the cross of Jesus Christ, seeking to live out the Word of God through the grace of God by the Power of God (the Holy Spirit).
While God desires holiness from us that takes the time of faithful practice, this definition communicates an attitude; an attitude which is attainable today. Every sanctification level applies here and therefore gives hope to the single searching for a godly spouse.
We are not looking for the "godliest" spouse, but a mate with similar spiritual and emotional maturity. They do exist; I promise.
28. BDB said the following at 2:14 PM on Feb 7:
I'm glad I learned from Boundless that being "Reformed" doesn't necessarily involve overcoming a past of substance abuse or gambling...
Though I always liked Calvin and Hobbes, long before I learned that the cartoon was loosely based on the theories of John Calvin and Thomas Hobbes...
29. BDB said the following at 5:40 PM on Feb 7:
Housekeeping item:
I suspect that the "Daily Broadcast" is on at different times in different cities. In L.A. the broadcast is on two different stations, one at 9pm and one at 10pm if I remember correctly.
Start here for broadcast information.
Forum registration appears to be here.
30. BDB said the following at 5:53 PM on Feb 7:
Interestingly enough, when I did the search for "Daily Brodcast," I think it's on in my area more than a dozen times each day. The two main stations are 9pm and 10pm, but there are lots of other stations in L.A. that are carrying it at different times, also.
31. Kate (who applied to law school!) said the following at 11:26 PM on Feb 7:
Patricia C- I'm trying to picture a Calvinist Buddhist in my head. And even though I was raised by a philosophical Taoist and a Methodist, it is so not working.
Kate (who was also raised by ex-hippie-ish parents)
32. Kelly said the following at 5:40 PM on Feb 8:
Kit said:
"Look instead for someone you get on with, who agrees with you spiritually, and who shares your worldview."
I've been hunting for that for 10 years. I have often found 2 out of the 3 qualities, but the "agree with spiritually" is VERY difficult to find hand-in-hand with the other two!
33. Barb said the following at 7:17 AM on Feb 9:
I have been married for 30 years. When we met my husband to be was not a believer. I took him to church because I was atracted to him and he received Christ as his Savior. We have 5 children 28-12 and we are crazy about each other. My husband is a plumber and I am a stay at home wife/mom.We "built" a lovely single home together. We have a middle class income. Things are not important although, we work hard toward the same goals. My husband does not drink, smoke or curse. He loves God and me second. It doesn't get much better than that! Don't give in and keep your worldly expectations low.
34. Patricia C said the following at 7:59 AM on Feb 9:
Kate,
He was reformed (or Calvinist) in name only. He told me that he was currently "falling in love" with Buddhism and the truths in that faith.
That was the end of that date.
35. Josh M said the following at 10:33 AM on Feb 9:
Mickey (#25), I have that quote or one very much like it in my list of quotes as credited to Dannah Gresh:
"A girl should get so lost in God, that a guy has to seek God to find her!"
which I found on Piper's blog.
My local station has the daily broadcast on at noon (MST), they have a live stream if you can't find something in your area.
36. Tami said the following at 10:38 AM on Feb 9:
I have a hard time picturing how or why someone who isn't Calvinist/Reformed would stick around in a Reformed church (other than, as you say, their parents dragged them)? Or -- even more so -- why they'd call themselves Reformed if they didn't believe it.
It seems the theology is so particular, and the emphasis on that theology is so strong, that if you didn't really hold to it, you wouldn't want to stay there or call yourself "Reformed".
Question (asked sincerely!): would someone who's Reformed date, say, a conservative Baptist who shared many of your beliefs in the Word, but didn't hold to the "L" in TULIP?
I'm not looking for a debate on limited atonement or free will. :) This is more of a question about how closely you expect to be aligned in theology with someone, at least at the very outset. Sometimes you can initially think you're different from someone else -- but in reality, as you grow in relationship and have deeper conversations -- you learn that you're more closely aligned than you initially thought, but you were just using different words to get there. OTOH, sometimes you really *are* that different. Either way, sometimes it takes a while to figure that out.
37. Rachael said the following at 10:40 AM on Feb 9:
re #13:
I've never heard women define provider in a way that includes the man buying expensive vehicles or designer fashions for them...perhaps the "seem to think" in this comment is based on judgments on the women's current lifestyles rather than on their actual beliefs. "Seems" are not always realities...
38. Patricia C said the following at 2:26 PM on Feb 9:
Tami,
It would really depend on whether the person is open to believing in L (that sounds odd!) or is convinced that it is unbiblical. It's also important in whether the person is a male or female. As a reformed girl, I think it is especially important to be with a male that does affirm all of TULIP as he will be the spiritual leader of the family. If the male is set in his ways that L is wrong, it probably would not be a good idea for the girl to date him if she disagrees. L is a big theological point for reformed folks and influences many parts of one's faith that it would be good to be united or at least open to uniting on that point. Also, it may make for a contentious relationship and that would not be enjoyable for either party. If he is open to it but not yet affirming, I don't see the harm in dating him.
I don't think the guy and girl have to be united on every theological point but they should be open to uniting on the major ones. And I think TULIP is pretty major.
Also, if it helps, none of the guys who asked me out who were "Reformed but also.." attend our church anymore.
39. Wendy said the following at 2:40 PM on Feb 9:
I don't know why it has been to hard to find a suitable life partner. I have had 2 relationships that has gone south. Both were godly Christian men. My prayer used to be " Lord, I would like to be married by age 26 if that is alright with you." Now, my prayer is " I would like to be married before Jesus comes back." I will be 41 this week. Never married, no kids, but extremely frustrated because I had done all the prep work to get ready. Why is it that the men who are attracted to me are so far from what I call marriage material, and the ones that I am attracted to are not interested in me at all?
I have to disagree with the gentlemen who said " any girl will do." That is so far from the truth. Though its been an arduous journey, I still believe in waiting for a suitable partner, not just one who is breathing and goes to church. Marriage is so sacred. And since God hates divorce, I really want to get it right the first time, even if it means I have to wait a few more years. I understand that there is no such thing as a perfect spouse. But I also know that being married to the right one or the wrong one can be a differences between heaven and hell. I choose to wait for heaven.
40. BDB said the following at 3:19 PM on Feb 9:
So, you'd write off a guy who liked daffodils more than tulips?
41. Patricia C said the following at 3:32 PM on Feb 9:
I should add that one phrase I find myself always telling girls who want to break up with a guy because of some lapse in spiritual maturity is to give a guy "grace to grow." I think it's really important to be patient with the ones we love. I see the men I admire in a spiritual sense and it took them many years and heartaches to become the men they are today. The women they are with were patient and forgiving of them to stick by them as they grew more and more spiritually handsome in the eyes of the Lord.
Now the real question is what one would consider a big enough lapse or difference to warrant not dating or breaking up. I think if a person takes an honest look at what those may be, he or she will see whether he or she is giving enough grace to grow.
42. Rachael said the following at 4:30 PM on Feb 9:
Tami, 36, wrote: "Sometimes you can initially think you're different from someone else -- but in reality, as you grow in relationship and have deeper conversations -- you learn that you're more closely aligned than you initially thought, but you were just using different words to get there. "
Good point ~ Somehow, I tend to respect "reformed" theology/churches (except I don't believe in infant baptism, which, often seems to happen in 'reformed' churches). However, I do not feel I'm now at the point to be able to adequately explain (or understand) exactly what 'reformed theology' is in a clear, short way. Sure I could study TULIP or do a little research if I wanted, but, I feel like my view is one that wants to believe what the Bible says. And somehow my impression is that in reformed churches the Bible is often very much valued, and a reformed church might be more apt to have verse-by-verse preaching. (Not only 'reformed' churches do this, but somehow I feel that that might be readily found in those types of churches). Also I feel that a sense of one's depravity, the importance of the gospel, and God's sovereignty are things that might be emphasized in a reformed church. I don't really know if I'm technically reformed. I have been to a variety of churches, but I think I lean in the reformed/Calvinistic direction...
But onto the issue of dating...
In dating my now-husband, I think one of my concerns/considerations had been about theological compatibility. But I think more important than worrying about whether or not someone has exactly the same theological views on everything as oneself is to consider the big picture of the person's *general* theological mindset (or spirit of openness), character, and view of the Bible.
I think there are things more important than one's head knowledge of theological points.
That said, we've gone to a reformed church together a few times, and I think it very well possible we'll continue to go there for now...
****
But in case you're interested in some of my ex-thoughts and correspondence...on a personal note...
Last June I corresponded with someone (in a city about midway between where I lived and where my now-husband lived) about the possibility of a small group (it didn't end up working out, but that's fine...).
In my e-mail I had written: "I don't think that the guy I am dating is consciously reformed. For example, he has talked about leading people to Christ, whereas I know that in the reformed mindset, you don't talk like that :). He does believe in the sovereignty of God, but I think he doesn't shape his worldview through "reformed theology". I don't even know 100% what reformed theology is, but [...]"
In part of the reply, I got this: "As far as the term "reformed" goes..... I tend to dislike that as a designation unless it's needed. Depends on the context, and who you’re talking to. I prefer (rightly) the word "Biblical" (duh!!!). That's what it boils down to, anywayz! 'Reformed' means much more than people think. It's simply taking the Bible at what it says, not what we want it to say. Like Calvin said; 'the Scriptures are like a pair of eyeglasses in that through which we can properly understand our purpose in life and the world around us'... It's soooooo much more than the few things that seem (erroneously) to makes it so popular (or unpopular), like the doctrines on predestination, and election. It's all about the: Authority of Scripture , the sovereignty of God, and in particular, His WONDERFUL grace! (And as far as leading people to Christ - oh yes, that's what we should always be about!!!) That could never be emphasized enough; (that is, unless your hanging with the 'hyper-Calvinists’, which is more of a distortion than anything else!) Spurgeon once said something like; "if all the elect had stripes down their backs, I'd be lifting up coat-tails, but they don't, so I preach fervently to all and as many as I can" (well something like that.) Rachael, We need to trust like a (Calvinist), yet work like an Arminian! (like that? well, I stole it.. : )) God uses men and women like us as His instruments to bring that saving Word to His people, wherein the Holy Spirit invades the heart of the recipient. (I hope you don't mind me talking in normal lingo on these matters. That's just the way I do it most the time)."
**
So, you can see, I was a bit concerned about the wording "leading people to Christ"...but really, I didn't need to be a bit concerned about the language (because 'leading' sounds to me like the person is responsible for the other's salvation rather than God's), I think... so I guess, if people find themselves questioning the other person's theology, perhaps they should consider the overall faith and not just the wording at specific moments. They could use those 'wonderings' as opportunities to ask the other person about the theological perspective rather than assume based on wording or just observe the person's overall faith and character...
43. Mike Theemling said the following at 8:55 PM on Feb 9:
Patricia C (#12),
I understand what you are trying to say, that you know what is important to you and that is good. However, comments like yours though can often come off across as disingenuous when put into practice.
By that I mean, that many of us either deceieve ourselves or intentionally leave our preferences so as to not sound too picky.
For example, you mention that your only requirements are that they are A) a heterosexual male and B) have a reformed theology.
I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there who meet those requirements. But does that mean without knowing anything else about them (appearance, education interests, etc) that you'd be willing to marry them blindly? Probably not.
Many (including myself) have stories about how someone is looking for a guy/girl with a particular checklist, and we meet that checklist to a 'T'. Yet when we initiate contact with them they give us the cold shoulder. Obviously, the advertised list wasn't the "only requirements".
I'm not saying that everyone needs to spill the beans on every must have or preference to everyone, or that there is no room for that mysterious "chemistry" to work. But I do believe that we all need to stop this charade of pretending that Christians are somehow radically different in their preferences of mates than non-Christians.
44. Patricia C said the following at 10:37 PM on Feb 9:
You may think I'm being disingenuous but, without going into too much detail, the guys I have gone out with for an extended time haven't had much to go with their name. I did, and still do, admire their faith and that was what drew me to them. I never said a person should marry someone "blindly" but at least give the guy a shot at a date to let him prove himself. Sure, I have preferences and but I'm trying to not lock myself into this ideal image and, as a consequence, eliminate perfectly good possibilities.
And believe it or not, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only girl that thinks that.
45. FrankH said the following at 1:24 AM on Feb 10:
In response to Wendy, #39:
I agree with you -- not any guy will do. Some roads are too bumpy. But there are many fairly smooth roads that tend toward that of a God-honoring marriage. Hence the stipulation, "given good guidance would approve."
46. Jeremy said the following at 7:07 AM on Feb 10:
"Question (asked sincerely!): would someone who's Reformed date, say, a conservative Baptist who shared many of your beliefs in the Word, but didn't hold to the "L" in TULIP?"
I have actually been a bit surprised by the responses of some of the reformed people on here. I hold to reformed theology, but I recognize that it is not the cornerstone of the faith -- there are sincere, intellectually honest, intelligent believers on both sides of this particular aisle.
Of course in dating/marriage there should be some level of agreement about theological doctrine, but there should also be some room for disagreement and discussion. When you shelter yourself from those that differ, it becomes easy to mentally elevate non-essentials to the level of essentials, and that is a dangerous path to start down.
So my guess would be that there are some hardcore reformed folk that would refuse to date anyone of a different mindset, but that is the minority. Surely most 5-point Calvinists would not write off a 4-pointer (especially on a point as difficult to defend as limited atonement ... but that is a discussion for another time).
47. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:51 AM on Feb 10:
Due to my experience in the realm of conservative baptists and being reformed myself and believing that a wife should follow her husband's spiritual lead, I'd probably avoid a conservative baptist spouse in general, but be open to it if someone came along that didn't share ALL of those problem causing beliefs.
There are certain areas where reformed and cb's strongly differ to the point of irreconiliation -
1) Infant Baptism - I have met cb's that have challenged the salvation of those baptized as infants. Whereas RTs think baptism is completely seperate from salvation and view it more covenantally than as a symbol of salvation.
2) Alcohol - cb's tend to be very aggressive in their anti-alcohol beliefs...rt's are very lenient (though they do not condone abuse). Even though I personally don't drink that much and would be 100% ok with giving up alcohol, such a person would be at great odds with my entire family and would not endear himself to my wine-connoisseur priest of an uncle =p And would have a problem with my lack of being bothered by it.
3) I was young and may not have had a thorough understanding, but the emphasis on works in the CB churches is strong...much stronger than it is in RT churches. This would probably be the most minor problem to work through, but would still cause some major theological rifts between a couple of different theologies.
However, there are some things I really like about the CB's - ESPECIALLY their strong emphasis on reading and memorizing the word of God (though I don't believe KJV is the greatest translation for understanding out there =p).
Thing is, if you get two people who know the tenets of their denomination, they're going to be at odds with one another. An Anglican woman could easily marry a Lutheran or a Catholic man. I don't think a Lutheran or a Catholic woman could easily marry an Anglican man.
They are a lot alike in doctrine and theology, but they have an incredible belief in superiority that the Anglican church generally lacks (they are more accepting of other denominations). Lutheran (in the WELS organization), requires you to be a Lutheran in order to take communion and they are incredibly distrustful of other denominations. Catholics require you to be baptized Catholic in order to partake in the sacraments...and if you are a devout Catholic, that is kinda a big deal. To leave those denominations and embrace your husband's denomination would go against everything they had been taught. Not so leaving Anglican and going Catholic or Lutheran.
I think Presbyterians and Baptists are probably more compatible theologically...but I'm not overtly familiar with presby theology - granted they are a bit more liberal than baptists, but I think that's more a political platform than a theological one.
Dito for Episcopal vs catholic/lutheran - more liberal politically, but close theologically.
Of course, all of this is moot for me...I married a Catholic =p And luckily, aside from not having my Uncle baptize my children, I have no problem raising my children Catholic. However, my father-in-law would probably have an issue with me NOT raising them catholic =p
48. Jim H said the following at 9:24 AM on Feb 10:
I think one of the difficulties is that everyone seems to be looking for the "complete package" - looks, spirituality, and good career. The people who have all 3 are fairly rare and tend to get married young, at least in my experience.
I have only 1.5. I could be a very good provider (paid off my house and car by cashing in stock options) and have a good salary so I give that "1." My spirituality is there but needs improvement and I don't score that well in the looks department. So on the whole, I do not do well in the dating scene and I think it is mainly because I am not that good looking. But I don't let that get me down. I believe physical chemistry, while not most important, is still necessary and I would not want to be with a woman who does not find me attractive in some way.
The one thing that helps me maintain joy is the realization that this life is only a shadow of what is to come. Sometimes even Christians live this life as if it were all there is and therefore despair when life does not turn out like they would have liked. If we live, like the Apostle Paul, with eager anticipation of what is to come, it would help us enjoy this life more, even if our dreams don't work out in this world.
49. Tami said the following at 9:49 AM on Feb 10:
Thanks, all, for your thoughtful responses to my question.
50. Kate said the following at 10:54 AM on Feb 10:
To Jim H of # 48, depending on what it is that you (or others) see as "not that good looking"... it may be changeable!
Having a good haircut, attractive glasses/wearing contacts if needed, well-groomed facial hair and some wardrobe change can make a difference... as can losing weight or toning up if you are quite thin. What is "attractive" in all of those ways is of course quite relative to personal tastes. You might find some tips from as sister or cousin, etc.
I think universally, just having good posture and appearing confident can make the most difference.
I know this is pretty generic advice and you might have tried any or all of those things but I thought I'd mention those in case you haven't.
51. Jim H said the following at 12:02 PM on Feb 10:
Kate #50,
I agree 100% with your sentiment and I believe everyone should do the best with what they have been given and I am trying to do that through rigorous exercise, eating better, etc. I want to be the best I can be in all aspects for a future spouse if that happens, but my main problem is something I cannot change - my height.
But the main point of my post was to encourage people whose dreams are dimming or have become unattainable to realize that what awaits us in heaven will make the travails and dissapointments in this life seem insignificant. I wonder if I will even remember much about this present earth after a million years in heaven!
So in summary, we should be encouraged by the unimaginably wonderful things that await us in heaven when we feel down in this world and rest our hopes in a loving Savior who will set all things right.
52. BDB said the following at 12:24 PM on Feb 10:
I always learn things when the Reformed crowd goes at it with each other...
53. Christina (in green) said the following at 12:55 PM on Feb 10:
Jim H -
I watched "Last Chance Harvey" the other night for a friend's b-day party.
I didn't catch the height difference til halfway through the movie =p I giggled to myself when I saw it.
But then I've heard the height problem many many times.
I didn't want to marry a short guy...I thought 6' would be nice.
I'm married to a guy who pulled me aside during holiday reveling and whispered to me I have a family full of GIANTS. Yes...yes I do...but your 5'10" is just fine with me. I'll just ditch the high heels if I'm feeling particularly narcotic about it.
I'm convinced he bought sneakers with extra thick soles the other month...
Anyway...keep looking up ;) (pun intended)
There's bound to be a girl out there willing to look past any height requirements (they do exist).
54. LouiseinPA said the following at 1:06 PM on Feb 10:
I'm jumping in at the end of the thread, but I would like to encourage those who face theological differences with a prospective spouse.
To me, having the other person be a Christian committed to growing in love towards each other, our neighbors, and most importantly God is by far the most important thing.
I attended a number of churches (Bible Fellowship, Methodist, and PCA) while in grad school, college, and growing up. i fell in love with someone who was Catholic and grew a deep love and appreciation for the Catholic Church and am getting married and plan to raise my children in it and attend alongside my fiancee.
I'd rather date/marry someone who pursue God whole heartedly in a different denomination than someone in my own that does so halfway. Moreover, God uses these different experiences and traditions to increase our awareness of the beauty and diversity of Christianity.
55. Emily said the following at 8:47 PM on Feb 12:
I have a few male Christian friends who have expressed discouragement because they felt as if the women in their church circle wanted three things: Dashing looks, Six figure income and Knowledge of the Bible backwards and forwards with good works to boot. To the brothers: I'm sorry if you have felt that way.
As a woman, however, I have felt a lot of pressure to lose weight I don't need to lose (I am not overweight and I am physically active), perform cosmetic surgery on my personality in order to become the "sweet and feminine" variety (I didn't become popular with my students and community as a result of paying them to like me) and change my tastes and interests in order to fit into what the men in my surrounding church culture appear to want. The majority of the Christian women I know in that community who are married and/or well sought after appear to weigh no more than 140 pounds, are softspoken and are sugar and spice and all things nice. (Remember folks, these thoughts are illusions - the mind plays big tricks on the brain because Satan gets us when we are vulnerable. )
That kind of pressure has weighed down on my self-esteem because it is part of how the Fall has factored into God's design for marriage. However, this kind of pressure is not from God - because it fosters an unhealthy and distorted view of myself.
Meeting someone and developing a relationship in God's way is an organic process. There is no one right method and I am sure that it honors God when we listen to Him and his Word and not succumb to worldly pressure, even if it is from within the local church.
In conclusion, I think that if people want to develop healthier relationships, which can lead to the possibility of attracting healthier prospects, they need to look at what really counts: the fruit of the Spirit, through which character development is manifested and being authentically who God made you.
56. Some Dude said the following at 7:14 AM on Feb 13:
One problem that I see with dating is that the attributes needed to be a good husband are not the same ones that are needed to attract a girlfriend. Sort of the way that in politics, different skills (often vastly different or contradictory) are needed to be a good public official and to get elected to that position.
I think I would be a good husband, but I see little chance of that happening because of the difficulty of getting there.
57. Scott said the following at 8:19 AM on Feb 13:
Heh, Some Dude, I feel the exact same way as you.
However, we've gotta be confident and trust in the Lord, even if basically makes no sense logically. God is able to do anything in his grand soverignty, even if I could never personally envision it happening.
I know your pain, trust me. And it hurts when my friend's girlfriends go "oh, but you're an amazing guy, I can't believe you're not dating someone". However, we must trust in the Lord and delight in the Lord in acknowledgement (Not hiding it!) of our loneliness and pain, and pray for his all-encompassing love to shine brighter in it.
I'm preaching to myself, and I hope you feel encouraged by it :)
58. dana111 said the following at 9:04 AM on Feb 13:
Christina (in green) typed:
Of course, all of this is moot for me...I married a Catholic =p And luckily, aside from not having my Uncle baptize my children, I have no problem raising my children Catholic.
I have a honest question to ask. I am interested in a man who is a practicing Catholic (I am Reformed). However, I have been told by other Christians, including my grandmother, that marrying a Catholic would be a sin because I would be "unequally yoked." Apparently, many Protestants believe that Catholics are not Christians, therefore marrying one would be a sin in God's eyes. Have you ever been confronted by Protestants for marrying a Catholic man? If so, how did you handle their accusations? I have looked online at different Christian resources, including carm.org and gotquestions.org, and they seem to be pretty sure that Catholics are not saved and therefore hellbound.
Thanks!
59. Some Dude said the following at 10:20 AM on Feb 13:
To Scott (#57):
Thanks for your comments. It's interesting that you your friends' girlfriends have said things like that. I had a girlfriend once who broke up with me. (Or maybe I broke up with her. She was having trouble making the decision, so I made it for her. I take credit.)
Not too long after, she asked me if I would consider getting back together later because I would make a good husband. I said no. I'm no sucker. I guess I am good enough to be marry but not good enough to date. Weird.
60. Sandrine said the following at 11:48 AM on Feb 13:
To Dana111 (#58): I don't agree with all of the catholic church teachings and would not have married a catholic myself. However, it is definitely wrong to say that all catholics are going to hell. I personnally have some friends within the catholic church who are real Christians, saved, and walking with Christ better than some in other churches. However, it is true that the emphasis the catholic church had (and still has somewhat) that people can get saved through works rather than by faith only in Christ's atoning work on the cross can be a problem for some, as well as the fact that the catholic church insists that they are the only true church... In your case, I would try to find out what this man really believes for himself, and also think hard if I would be comfortable bringing up children within the catholic church, as you would be required to do if he wants to stay a practicing catholic.
61. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 3:44 PM on Feb 13:
I am as Reformed (Reformed Baptist, that is) as they come, but I can't necessarily say that I would rule out courting and marrying a woman who doesn't hold to limited atonement. I would definitely *prefer* that she hold to it-- namely, that she believe that Christ died a truly *efficacious, atoning* death to save His people from their sins (as I believe that Scripture teaches), but if she holds to the other four points, I'm happy-- especially in my current situation, where Reformed women are so few to be found! :-)
With that said, I could never imagine marrying a Catholic. As an ex-Catholic myself, I would not say that it is impossible for a Catholic to be a true Christian-- BUT Reformed Christians and Catholics have *very serious* disagreements on the nature and meaning of the *finished* work of Christ on the cross, the imputation of Christ's righteousness to believers, and justification by faith alone.
The Council of Trent still stands between Catholics and Protestants, and saying that it was all a misunderstanding about wording (as many contemporary Catholics say) is too simplistic and not really accurate. In hope and charity, I would rejoice to see Catholics in Heaven, but our disagreements are too serious for me to marry a Catholic, and even more, to pledge to raise our children in the Catholic faith.
62. Josh M said the following at 5:10 PM on Feb 13:
For some reason I was just reminded of the teaching Mark Dever gave at Na2007. There, during one part he talked about a sort of hierarchy of how much doctrinal agreement is needed depending on the type of relationship being formed. As I remember it, he recommended that the marriage relationship be at the top of that (needing the most agreement), then he went on to meeting as a local church, meeting in Bible study, joining in evangelism... He also talked about evaluating levels of differences.
Anyway, the more I think about it, his talk could be very useful if this question of how much our potential spouses should agree with us is of concern to you. If you just want to read about it, Motte blogged briefly about it and Tim Challies blogged in depth.
63. Benjamin said the following at 9:37 PM on Feb 13:
Hey! Please help! Sorry if this is off topic, but I wanted to ask you a question and see what you guys think (maybe some Godly advice)... I am a single college, and I have about a year and a half left. I know that if I had a girlfriend, I could not afford to take her out on dates or buy her expensive Valentines/birthday/Christmas gifts. While I'm in Nursing school, there is no way that I'll be able to work and still pass my classes. Even if I could work a little, I would be paying off debt. I am definitely not complaining about money, not in the least bit. I guess that I feel like I wouldn't be able to pay for things in order to take her on dates, etc (at least until I get out of college). At the same time, I don't know how much time I would be able to devote to her while I'm in school (but I'm sure she would understand that). Anyways, do you think I should just wait until I get out of college?
64. Mad said the following at 10:22 PM on Feb 13:
On the thread of marrying a Catholic (#58, dana1111), I agree with Sandrine (#60). There are Catholics who are genuine believers and there are Catholics who identify themselves as "Catholic" because that's how they were raised, just as in most churches. The important thing is whether you and a potential spouse agree on doctrine to the extent that you see important for compatibility and raising a family.
My dad is Catholic and my mom Protestant. While they have a strong marriage, the biggest tension I see between them is a lack of spiritual connection. While their relationship can't be generalized to any Catholic-Protestant relationship, I have a hard time envisioning myself as "spiritually compatible" with a Catholic and know that I would not want to raise my children in the Catholic Church.
The big, foundational difference I see is that Catholics elevate the tradition of the Catholic Church to the same authority as Scripture, and I disagree with many of the Church's beliefs in the Catechism that I do not see as derived from Scripture. Catholics are also very exclusive about their Church- you must attend Catholic mass, be married by a Catholic priest and baptize your children in the Church for it to "count."