More Contemporary Praise Music Frustrations by Motte Brown on 02/16/2009 at 3:50 PM

I recently asked our pastor if he thinks it's ok to not sing certain songs during worship. He said that if you're not singing simply because you don't like the style, then you could be in sin. Because musical preferences shouldn't dictate your participation in corporate worship.

In other words, if it's not lyrically heretical, sing it. But what if it's lyrically individualistic? Like Tim Hughe's "Here I am to Worship"? You know the chorus:

Here I am to worship,
Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely
Altogether worthy,
Altogether wonderful to me

And,

I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost

Even with everyone in the church singing, it's still a bunch of "I's" singing it, not "we's." But though it's not my style, I belted it out, convicted by what my pastor said. (Besides, it is somewhat reformed theologically with that line "Opened my eyes, let me see." Which is redeeming.)

I wonder what Tony Woodlief of WorldMag.com does. He wrote an article last Friday with similar frustrations about bringing contemporary praise music into worship.

Recently I told my wife we ought to call a lot of them "me's," not "hymns." I suppose I'm getting more curmudgeonly, such that I cringe upon hearing a congregation warble what sounds dandy when crooned by an individual over the airwaves, but seems corny and too "me-and-Jesus" for corporate worship. My Savior does indeed love, and live, and He is always there for me, but now that I am here with all my brothers and sisters, couldn't we see our way clear to sing a song that has a little more reverence or community or [...] theology? Perhaps what I'm really seeking is less individuality in an American Church that has been overrun with it.

Me? Unless the music is doctrinally off, I'll continue to submit to our worship leaders and give deference to my brothers and sisters in Christ by seeking to cultivate a spirit that places community over my own preferences. Even if the songs have a ton more "I's" and "me's" than "we's."

More Contemporary Praise Music Frustrations by Motte Brown on 02/16/2009 at 3:50 PM

I recently asked our pastor if he thinks it's ok to not sing certain songs during worship. He said that if you're not singing simply because you don't like the style, then you could be in sin. Because musical preferences shouldn't dictate your participation in corporate worship.

In other words, if it's not lyrically heretical, sing it. But what if it's lyrically individualistic? Like Tim Hughe's "Here I am to Worship"? You know the chorus:

Here I am to worship,
Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely
Altogether worthy,
Altogether wonderful to me

And,

I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost

Even with everyone in the church singing, it's still a bunch of "I's" singing it, not "we's." But though it's not my style, I belted it out, convicted by what my pastor said. (Besides, it is somewhat reformed theologically with that line "Opened my eyes, let me see." Which is redeeming.)

I wonder what Tony Woodlief of WorldMag.com does. He wrote an article last Friday with similar frustrations about bringing contemporary praise music into worship.

Recently I told my wife we ought to call a lot of them "me's," not "hymns." I suppose I'm getting more curmudgeonly, such that I cringe upon hearing a congregation warble what sounds dandy when crooned by an individual over the airwaves, but seems corny and too "me-and-Jesus" for corporate worship. My Savior does indeed love, and live, and He is always there for me, but now that I am here with all my brothers and sisters, couldn't we see our way clear to sing a song that has a little more reverence or community or [...] theology? Perhaps what I'm really seeking is less individuality in an American Church that has been overrun with it.

Me? Unless the music is doctrinally off, I'll continue to submit to our worship leaders and give deference to my brothers and sisters in Christ by seeking to cultivate a spirit that places community over my own preferences. Even if the songs have a ton more "I's" and "me's" than "we's."

Comments

[1. BDB said the following at 3:52 PM on Feb 16:]

1

I like the Chris Tomlin one more than the Jesus-is-my-boyfriend songs...at least it acknowledges that a price was paid on the cross, it's not all about lovey-dovey feelings...

[2. Hannah C. said the following at 4:24 PM on Feb 16:]

2

While it doesn't usually stop me from worshiping, I have to admit that praise and worship songs have nothing on hymns...especially not the Episcopal hymns I grew up with.

"Here I am to worship"
vs
"Crown Him with many crowns"
...
The latter will win every time!

But praise and worship does have a place. I think it is perhaps too prevalent though. But to each his own...as long as it's not heretical.

[3. Jacob said the following at 4:36 PM on Feb 16:]

3

Motte,

I don't understand how I could be sinning by not singing. Could you lay out your pastor's reasoning?

I'm one of the people who has a hard time with what I perceive to be "hyper-individualism" in corporate worship, so I am honestly interested in hearing how he brought you to that conclusion.

It is a sensitive issue and deserves careful consideration of all the factors involved.

[4. Marie said the following at 4:56 PM on Feb 16:]

4

"He said that if you're not singing simply because you don't like the style, then you could be in sin. Because musical preferences shouldn't dictate your participation in corporate worship."

I... SOMEWHAT agree. But I think the wording somewhat downplays the role music itself, aside from lyrics, plays in worship. Many times I do not sing along because I would not be sincere if I did; my sincerity is affected by the musical style. Ex: "I could sing of your love forever..." (repeat 100 times). Besides recognizing that the lyrics exaggerate and I could not literally sing forever, the fact that I dislike the style makes it hard to feel the sentiment expressed in the song. Or take the "waves of mercy, waves of grace" song. All the "na na na na na na na, na na na nanana na"s... the simplistic tune repeated SO many times just frustrates me to the point that I am not in a worshipful mindset. Then there's the "Oh my God, this love, how can it be?" phrase, which I'm uncomfortable with because it sounds more like the valleygirl "OMG!!!!! [I love your hair!]" expression (and misusing the Lord's name) rather than an awed expression of TO God. It's not that the words are incorrect, but the overall effect of tune, tempo, lyrics, etc. gives an impression that isn't conducive to worship, for me anyway.

Also, as a musician with a trained ear, the quality of music affects my worship experience- if I'm hearing something off-key or out of tempo, it distracts me from worship... if that is the case, I shouldn't TRY to sing words I do not mean because I would be a hypocrite and a liar.

On a related note, I was looking at Pastor James MacDonald's blog the other day and he had a post about why his church doesn't sing certain songs: "On Songs We Don't Sing", http://blog.harvestbiblefellowship.org/

Finally, I agree with Motte about the individualisticity of many "worship" songs. Part of the problem, I think, is that worship leaders sometimes try to turn a "great song on the radio" into a congregational worship song, and often the transition just doesn't work. For example, "I'm coming back to the heart of worship... I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it..."... What started as an individual praying & repenting to God now becomes a congregation forced to apologize for a sin that maybe many of them never committed, or that maybe some have committed but are not truly repenting of simply by singing a song along with everyone else.

[5. HER said the following at 5:08 PM on Feb 16:]

5

No musical preferences should not dictate our behavior in corporate worship. But is it possible that the church in general does not think enough about how we worship God? Is it fine for the church to do and say anything during His worship or should we focus on the way He has asked us to worship Him? It often seems to me that we worship in whatever style is currently popular and most likely to appeal to the sense of the most people. This seems very ME focused. Perhaps it is wrong to not sing something as long as the words are correct, but perhaps we as a body are not thinking enough about what we are singing, praying, and doing as we come before the throne of grace. Are we truly reverencing the Lord or are we doing things that make us feel good.

[6. Adam said the following at 5:14 PM on Feb 16:]

6

I noticed that you attributed "Here I am to Worship" to Chris Tomlin. Actually that's a Tim Hughes song. But anyways, one question: just who decides if a song is self centred, and whether a song can or cannot be used in corporate worship?

For example:

There's a peace I've come to know
Though my heart and flesh may fail
There's an anchor for my soul
I can say, it is well

Jesus has overcome,
and the grave is overwhelmed
the victory is won
He is risen from the dead

And I will rise when He calls my name
No more sorrow, no more pain
I will rise on eagles wings
before my God, fall on my knees and rise

There's a day that's drawing near
when this darkness breaks to light
and the shadows disappear
and my faith shall be my eyes

And I hear the voice of many angels sing, worthy is the Lamb
and I hear the cry of every longing heart, worthy is the Lamb

Is this self centred or not? I'm sure there would be several different opinions. I personally think it is a beautiful song for corporate worship.

[7. Rachael said the following at 5:22 PM on Feb 16:]

7

I suppose it would be better if we could take care to keep our mouths closed, though, on parts of the songs that we don't mean, unless perhaps we at that moment intend to mean it...

[8. Derek Wong said the following at 5:28 PM on Feb 16:]

8

I get the same feeling when there are worship songs with so many references to us. My feeling is that worship should be about God and the work that He has done in our lives. While this is obviously very important for us because He has saved us, that cannot be the focus all of the time (like it currently is in worship songs it seems). Because really it's about so much more than us.

And *gasp* I say this even though I agree more with Jacobus Arminius.

[9. Brad said the following at 5:45 PM on Feb 16:]

9

I never sing the bridge when we do "Here I am to worship." It just doesn't seem right. I think the day I look Jesus in the eye, face to face, I'll know exactly how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross. But I digress.

Call me crazy, but I actually prefer hymns musically as well as doctrinally. While many popular hymns are surprisingly simple and can be played on a guitar using 3 to 5 chords, they still seem more... musical... than most contemporary songs.

But in general, I enjoy singing and playing any song that focuses on God and not just my experience, even if the experience is me worshiping.

[10. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 5:49 PM on Feb 16:]

10

I hear you, Motte. I am a member of a non-denominational but Reformed-leaning church whose leaders are very careful about the theological content of the songs we sing. However, in the past, in other churches, that was not always the case. I tend to go with "sing the songs, unless my conscience truly will not allow it." I have to admit, I do struggle with singing songs that don't go well with Reformed theology. :-)

Man, there were way too many "I's" in this comment! :-)

[11. David in Cambridge said the following at 6:09 PM on Feb 16:]

11

I can sympathize with Motte's observations. I think most of this problem could be fixed with more worship leader training. It seems that the evangelical community often fails to recognize that a song that is superb for private worship, i.e. on your radio, iPod, or computer, is not necessarily an equally good song for corporate worship. Besides the over-abundance of "I"s described above, there are also songs like "Blessed Be Your Name" that are technically difficult and wholly unsuitable for singing in a group.

I'm not a worship leader, but I'd guess that for most their route of exposure to new music is pretty similar to mine--the radio, friends, etc. We should not be surprised then that their choices mirror the popular music. There are composers of Christian contemporary corporate music (i.e. Keith Getty), but for reasons that should be obvious, they are not as well known (who buys a CD of corporate music?). Along with more worship leader training would come exposure to these options.

The Bible draws a clear distinction between personal and corporate worship ("wherever two or more are gathered..."). I would not encourage people to forgo singing songs they think are more appropriate for their daily commute. For one, it is my position to follow the pastor's lead; and second, while it may not be as helpful as it could be, I doubt that it is harmful. Just as leading the adult congregation in "Jesus Loves Me" would not be wrong, though entirely inappropriate, worship leaders need to recognize that different songs are appropriate for different settings.

[12. YvetteS said the following at 6:09 PM on Feb 16:]

12

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

"And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God" (Read all of 2 Sam 6 for the context - David was actually violating the rules regarding the Ark as well)

Consider that both the Old and New Testament have several rules regarding what is and is not acceptable in regard to worship.

1 Cor 14, 1 Cor 11, Numbers 9, just to name a few.

Note that in both the Old and New Testament, the form or STYLE - not just lyrics - of worship, when done improperly, can reap deadly punishment.

I expect there will be some debate as to what styles are acceptable or not.

But the clear point from the Bible is that God does care, very much, about how we approach Him. We have no Scriptural grounds to say that style doesn't matter to God.

[13. Anna B said the following at 6:22 PM on Feb 16:]

13

Motte-
I'm sure you'll agree that the point of worship to honor and love Jesus and to commune with Him. When we worship in song, whether or not we sing with "I" or with "We," if He is not being adored, we aren't worshiping. Because of the unique way music moves our spirits, when a community of people individually worship, the individual hearts are knit to Him and to each in other in a very special way (again, regardless of the use of "We" or "I"). And since the point of worship is to approach the throne of grace and meet with the God-Man Jesus Christ in an intimate way, I don't think we should worry about whether or not we are building community 1) because building community is not the point of worship and 2) because it happens automatically in true worship.

Lastly, Motte, I think He so appreciates your heart to honor Him and "not sin," but I think it's easy to get legalistic when we start asking if everything we're doing is sin or "not sin" (unless otherwise dictated in the Bible-e.g. adultery is sin because the Bible says it is) He isn't most honored when we're "not-sinning;" He's most honored when we're loving Him. Because we can "not sin" and also not love Him; but if we love Him, we're automatically not sinning. For instance, asking, "If I don't sing this song because I think it's not appropriate for corporate worship, will I be sinning?" is probably not as helpful as asking, "Jesus, am I loving You when I sing this song? And is my hesitancy to sing this song because I genuinely want to love You more and I think this song is hindering me from doing that? Or is it because I don't think it measures up to my standard of what I think corporate worship should be?" When we ask if something possibly ambiguous is sin (again, unless clearly outlined in the Bible), we're concentrating on ourselves and our state of righteousness (which obviously, we are called to do as Christians-but I think that constantly and solely looking at ourselves does not help us love Him more or transform us into His image the way looking at Him does) instead of concentrating on His heart-on whether or not He delights in the attitude of our heart, on what makes Him happy, etc. etc.

[14. farmer Tom said the following at 6:36 PM on Feb 16:]

14

Funny that you should mention this topic, after the Scripture I was reading yesterday.

Maybe the problem is more about what we think music is than anything else.

What is a hymn?

Do you know what is and what is not, a hymn?

What do these verses mean?

Ephesians 5:19

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

and Colossians 3:16

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit seems to be suggesting that there was more than one kind of music with which to worship God.

from Strong's Concordance,

psalms

psalmos

) a striking, twanging

a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument

b) of a pious song, a psalm

hymns

hymnos

1) a song in tithe praise of gods, heroes, conquerors

2) a sacred song, hymn

spiritual songs

pneumatikos ōdē

or combining both definitions

pneumatikos

1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ

a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul

2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God

3) belonging to the Divine Spirit

a) of God the Holy Spirit

b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God

(NOTE: I am condensing here),relating to the human spirit or rational soul, as the part of man which is akin to God, and serves as his instrument or organ, .......belonging to the spirit.......thoughts, opinions, precepts, maxims ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul.....

1) a song, lay, ode

a song in praise of God or Christ

In summary a spiritual song is one in which the human spirit or a rational soul sings in praise of God or Christ, thoughts, opinions, precepts or maxims ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul.

So there are three distinct kinds of music.

Psalms,
pious music with instruments, (IMO) directly from Scripture

Hymns,
sacred songs of praise to God

and spiritual songs,
songs in which the human spirit or a rational soul sings in praise of God or Christ, thoughts, opinions, precepts or maxims ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul.

See a difference there??

Much of what passes for church music today are actually spiritual songs, which are not bad, but the very nature of that kind of song is one which is a personal act of worship and praise to God rather than a sacred or corporate worship song done by a group in praise of God.

Let me see if I can illustrate.

I'm old, so my idea of contemporary music is very out of date, ok,

Maranatha used to do a praise song which was a direct quote of Psalm 19, it was a wonderful way of learning Scripture, while teaching spiritual truth, usually sung with a guitar accompanying. Perfect for around a campfire or at a Bible camp session for a group of kids,

"A Mighty Fortress" by Martin Luther is a classic hymn, it is intended to be sung in corporate worship with a leader and either organ or piano accompaniment. It is a consummate example of what a hymn is supposed to be. The focus of the song is our God and His attributes. One can not sing this song and focus on self, because "on earth is not his equal".

Now, pick your own example here, but I will use Petra's "Judas Kiss", remember I'm old. This song has spiritual value, it reminds the listener of the cost that Jesus Christ paid for our sins, not only that, it reminds us that our sinful behavior in the present is offensive to Jesus Christ in the same way that He was rejected and abused by those around Him at the time He walked this earth.

But, Judas Kiss would never be appropriate for corporate worship. because it's loud, it's very personal and it would be nearly impossible for a large group of people to sing.

Psalm 19 is very worshipful, quiet and lends itself to contemplation and introspection, while teaching spiritual truth, and works well for corporate worship, but may be limited by the setting as it is generally done from memory,

Of the three songs A Mighty Fortress is most clearly a hymn for corporate worship.

Maybe your worship leaders are confusing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs??

[15. Texas Craig said the following at 6:42 PM on Feb 16:]

15

I think it is all a matter of perspective. What seems "me" centered can also be seen as us taking ownership over things instead of making them a generic "us." I would say that culturally, people now often use "we" when they don't really mean it, but are instead trying to criticize others but want to appear pious, so they include themselves in it.

To me, the use of "I" is often intended to take ownership of the idea. I am a sinner. I need a savior. I am a wretched man. It is often not in any way self-exalting. With that in mind, let's look at the lyrics to the Tomlin song you mentioned:

Light of the world
You stepped down into darkness.
Opened my eyes, let me see.
Beauty that made this heart adore You
Hope of a life spent with You

(Pretty good theology there)

Here I am to worship,
Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely
Altogether worthy,
Altogether wonderful to me

(I think this is right. I cannot speak for my neighbor, who may not be worshiping at all to the song, but rather may be thinking about how it is not good theology or is too me-centered. Thus, I can only accurately speak the words for my own heart, thus I would not want to say "we" because I cannot speak for my neighbors) :-)

King of all days
oh, so highly exalted
Glorious in heaven above
Humbly You came
To the earth You created
All for love's sake became poor

(seems like good theology to me)

I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost

(To me, this is an acknowledgment of how great God's sacrifice was for us, and how we will never be able to really comprehend it fully, in our finite sinful state)

So, it all looks good to me. And, not to seem snooty, but given the very fact that some of these songs may bother you, that demonstrates the importance of singing them from a personal perspective, rather than a corporate - because the corporate body may not share the worshiper's heart and may not actually be sharing the thoughts expressed by the words.

Just a different viewpoint (like I always try to bring....) :-)

[16. kb said the following at 7:06 PM on Feb 16:]

16

Why didn't you quote the entire song, Motte? I'll agree, the refrain and bridge are extremely "me-centered," but the verses reference a number of theological concepts.

But this particular song isn't really the point. A lot of the psalms sound pretty "me-centered." Check out Psalm 13, Psalm 22, Psalm 26, Psalm 31, Psalm 35...I could go on and on. While all of these Psalms contain a great deal of theological content, they focus a great deal on the speaker. The Psalms (Israel's songbook) are full of "me's".

I'm not saying at all that all of our corporate music should be all about me, all the time. In fact, I totally agree with you that our corporate music is far too me-centered, rather than God-centered or corporate. But it seems that Scriptures give us a very generous line for expressing our own personal response to God's character and work, even in the corporate setting.

[17. Craig M. said the following at 8:02 PM on Feb 16:]

17

Just silly. Standing reverently but not singing a single given song is sin? Ridiculous. And what a cover for bad writers and shallow services.

[18. Cassandra said the following at 8:03 PM on Feb 16:]

18

That sounds a lot like a Catholic criticism of Protestant worship, for what it's worth. A few years ago I edited a liturgy magazine for a Catholic publishing house and I specifically remember an author criticizing the Protestant "me and Jesus" mentality in worship music. As a Protestant I bristled at that criticism. I don't have the access to articles and Catechism that I used to at my old job, but there is a Catholic distinctive whereby the community and the liturgy is the recipient and the vehicle of salvation, and the focus is away from the individual response to the call of Christ. So I think the Protestants shifted towards the "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" and rightly so.

I don't like worship songs where "I" or "me" is the object of the song. The subject of the song, however, is fine with me.

I refrain from joining in songs sometimes because I don't like them and don't feel worshipful singing them and I don't think that's a sin. I think that's an awfully "religious" stance.

[19. Annabelle said the following at 8:09 PM on Feb 16:]

19

I don't know if this is going to sound silly, but I always dislike singing the parts of songs that I consider untrue ... such as singing as loud as I possibly can that I (or we) am bowing down, or that I'm on my knees, or that my hands are up high, or other such things. It just seems so odd. Some songs convey the feeling that this bowing or kneeling is figurative or with the spirit. But some seem to me to be saying that we should be literally bowing down. And no one ever does. I just keep my mouth shut at those times.

I also think it's incredibly strange to sing an entire song that is from God to us. While I love meditating on God's promises to us, I feel weird singing to God what God says instead of singing to God how I love him, how thankful I am, how unbelievable He is, etc.

Not sure if these thoughts made much sense.

[20. Chin Wee said the following at 8:09 PM on Feb 16:]

20

Here I Am to Worship is by Tim Hughes, not Chris Tomlin, although he did cover the song.

[21. Ken said the following at 8:11 PM on Feb 16:]

21

I have to admit that I'm confused why everybody keeps complaining about the praise songs with "I" in them. Have you ever read the words to "In the Garden"? That's basically a "Jesus and me hanging out together" song from 1912! There's nothing about the blood, or the cross, or salvation in it. And yet, nobody ever complains about that one. Looking at one of my hymnals, I see: I Have Decided to Follow Jesus, I Know Whom I Have Believed, I Love to Tell the Story, I Must Tell Jesus, I Need Thee Every Hour, I Shall Know Him, I Shall Not Be Moved, I Sing the Mighty Power of God, I Surrender All, I Will Sing the Wondrous Story, and a whole bunch of others. I really think nothing has changed.

[22. Laura said the following at 8:13 PM on Feb 16:]

22

Good stuff, Motte.

Too many people get really snotty and nasty about modern worship music -- painting it all with the same brush, as if it's ALL that "me, me, me" nonsense and there's nothing of theological value available. And then too many people are just plain undiscerning about the kind of music that they sing -- as if having the word "Jesus" in a song makes it acceptable for corporate worship even if it's more "Jesus is my boyfriend" than "Jesus is sufficient."

But I think there's a third way. Seek out beautiful, theologically rich music that reflects ALL the truth of Scripture. Develop a "hymnal" for your own church that isn't based on the hippest Christian pop but on unchanging truth. Sing songs that "hit home" for your congregation. Encourage the songwriters in your church to write excellent, Biblical songs. Take advantage of historical songwriters like the Wesleys, Isaac Watts, and others, as well as modern hymnists like Keith and Kristyn Getty and Stuart Townend. And remember that we're commanded to sing TO each other as encouragement, as well as TO God in praise.

My two cents!

[23. Ryan said the following at 8:58 PM on Feb 16:]

23

Hmmm... I agree wholeheartedly, yet I don't think you go far enough, Mott.

With all due respect, do you not think that self-centered songs about our experience with God is founded moer on sentimentality than real, gritty, hardcore faith-based-on-facts?

In other words, are not self-centered songs in and of themselves doctrinally incorrect?

I believe they are...

"Worship leaders" these days and songwriters are not theologians or pastors as they were in generations past. That lack has left us with an abundance of songs that are better kept at the bottom of the barrel than sung aloud.

[24. Claire said the following at 9:34 PM on Feb 16:]

24

Interesting--I've never really noticed the I/we thing. Sometimes I don't bother singing a line or two if the lyrics just seem like filler: "sing with me," "it's rising up all around/it's the anthem of the Lord's renown," "we're singing," etc. Maybe those are meaningful to some people, but seriously ... we're singing about singing? It's like those birthday cards that, instead of being about the birthday, are all about the card ("I was going to get you XYZ, but I decided to get you this card instead.") :)

Lately I've been listening to a lot of Sovereign Grace Music's worship music, which I've found to have lyrics that actually mean something, and really solid theology to boot.

[25. Dan said the following at 11:49 PM on Feb 16:]

25

This is such a recurring and frustrating topic, one that is important to talk through. While I do believe there is wisdom in submitting to our leaders so we can join together in praise and adoration of our God, we need to evaluate what we sing so we can communicate our thoughts, if appropriate. I'm currently working on a large scale worship night, and it has got me thinking quite a bit about this mystical feeling we pursue so much in worship- as if we worship God so WE can get something out of it. That phrase sounds so ridiculous when said out loud. I know that worship music can really help us build proper beliefs about God and who He is, and in that sense, does serve us a little, but this has really convicted me of my song selection and even how I lead the people who attend. I've been a lot more focused on songs that are doctrinally and theologically sound and which turn our eyes in praise and adoration of God both through the words we sing and even the effort we put forth to sing them.

[26. Larissa said the following at 12:46 AM on Feb 17:]

26

I understand what you mean about songs having too much I's and Me's. But do we not worship Him not just for who he is, but also for who he is to us personally? And to me, it makes sense for a song to contain pronouns to show this relationship.

[27. Jon from the UK said the following at 2:10 AM on Feb 17:]

27

Actually Tim Hughes wrote the song "Light of the world" , and not Chris Tomlin.

Part of the challenge is that there are a plethora of song writers at the moment with different levels of spiritual insight, maturity and theology. This topic has been addressed in several worship workshops / conferences that I have attended in the UK. Be of good cheer, song writers will get there eventually ...

[28. Harry said the following at 2:48 AM on Feb 17:]

28

So ar eu saying songs with I's are not to be sung...dat Here I Am To Worship is wrong...please I need 2 kno...ASAP

[29. Charity said the following at 5:18 AM on Feb 17:]

29

Aren't there a lot of Psalms (which have been hymns of corporate worship for many millenniums) that are full of 'I's,' too?

For example:

"I will praise the Lord as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being." Psalm 146:2

"Then I will go to the altar of God,
to God my exceeding joy,
and I will praise you with the lyre,
O God, my God." Psalm 43:4

"In my distress I called upon the Lord; to my God I cried for help.
From his temple he heard my voice,
and my cry to him reached his ears."
Psalm 18:6

There are so many Psalms that focus on worship based on what the Lord has done for the individual. This is just a tiny sampling of the way that individual reflection and worship was fused with corporate worship. I don't believe that the "I's" should have it all, but I do think that a healthy balance of "I" and "we" reflects the balanced scriptural pattern for corporate praise.

[30. S said the following at 5:20 AM on Feb 17:]

30

Our worship leader points out that when we sing the "I" or "me" songs, that it is an opportunity for the individual to sing TO God. I really don't see any controversy here.

[31. Susan said the following at 6:02 AM on Feb 17:]

31

My preference definitely leans towards songs that are rich in theology. Writing lyrics that speak of God’s truth and with a melody that is suitable for corporate worship is not an easy task, but I am grateful for the songwriters that are laboring for the church in this area.

Also, I remind myself to not measure a person’s walk with the Lord based on their music tastes.

[32. Bria said the following at 6:17 AM on Feb 17:]

32

Motte, I empathize with your and Tony's discomfort with some contemporary songs. However, I don't worry about the songs nearly so much as I did before I read what C. S. Lewis had to say about most hymns being tasteless and culturally inferior--he was referring to the old, solid, doctrinal ones we know and love. Lewis was confessing his distaste for his own snobbery, realizing that the "char woman" singing her heart out next to him was truly worshiping God, while he was withholding worship because he felt the songs were beneath his understanding of aesthetics and, to an extent, theology. Ouch. I was convicted, too.

I think your pastor has a good handle on the issue. If every person refused to sing every song he disliked in church, claiming that the song was too individualistic, where would we be? The church would be fragmented by individuals individuating in order to protest what they viewed as an overly individualistic song....

[33. Dan Gill said the following at 6:31 AM on Feb 17:]

33

A couple things:

1. The song in question is not individualistic, even though "I", "my", and "me" are used. The song is about God. It is saying that the author and singer are here to worship God, and that God is wonderful, lovely, and worthy, and that the author and singer cannot comprehend what it took to see Jesus on the cross become our the author and singer's sin. It's about God.

2. So, I may be sinning if I don't want to sing a rap song, or country song, or operatic song? That's a bit much. Taste is personal. It's not sin to like or dislike a style. To force others to sing a song they dislike, or to force them not to sing a song they do like--that would be sin.

[34. Michelle (in the UK) said the following at 6:40 AM on Feb 17:]

34

This is such a frustration to me as well. I'm part of a church who are renowned for their music and sometimes there are lyrics, in particular, even just parts of lyrics which I do not like. I find them sometimes cheesy. What I try to remember is that if they're doctrinally correct then why shouldn't I sing it? I may not enjoy certain aspects of the song but I do know that the song as a whole brings glory to God and the Message of Christ.

[35. Alison said the following at 7:28 AM on Feb 17:]

35

Have you ever thought to have an open discussion on worship with Matt Redman or Chris Tomlin on worship?

[36. Rachel said the following at 7:30 AM on Feb 17:]

36

I'm not being argumentative, I really want to know: It's about a PERSONAL relationship with Christ, isn't it? So why are songs like "Here I am to worship..." so controversial? My spirit praises God in total surrender just the same as during Amazing Grace... and I am touched when I look around during such a song and see many faces uplifted, many hands raised in similar surrender and praise, and I feel community and fellowship. I imagine the halls of Heaven when we'll be surrounded by our brothers and sisters in the presence of God. Is it less the song and more the personal attitude here? I mean, put that song in a congregation that is very service- and mission- oriented, that emphasizes community... and do you still have a problem with the song?

[37. Tamara said the following at 9:14 AM on Feb 17:]

37

Sigh. As half of the planning team charged with starting a new "Modern" worship service in our church, I can relate to your frustration. All of us in charge of the service have a deep passion to find songs with doctrinal depth that are appropriate for corporate worship and also have a musical style that speaks to the demographic we've been asked to target. Yet that is SO HARD. Don't lay too much blame on your worship team or pastor until you've tried to find the type of songs you're talking about.

I'd ask (beg, plead) that we all PRAY that God will gift members of His body to start writing these songs so we can all sing them.

[38. LouiseinPA said the following at 9:23 AM on Feb 17:]

38

I'm sure there are some lousy worship songs. But some hymns are just as me centered. What about Be Thou MY Vision or Amazing Grace? Both us the I or My and are classic hymns. Also, many of the Psalms use the first person....

[39. Leah W said the following at 9:37 AM on Feb 17:]

39

I think it all goes back to Ecclesiastes, where "the Preacher" talks about "To everything there is a season..." That includes praise & worship. As the daughter of a P&W leader I've not only "sang along" but sang on a praise & worship team. You can't judge an entire worship service on one song. (Light of the World is one of the first worship songs my oldest niece learned to sing by herself, so it holds a rather special place in my heart.:D) However if the whole of the worship "theme" is "Me, ME and More MEEEEE!" than, yes, your worship leader might have lost focus. But for the most part, the songs mentioned have been less about "only 'me and Jesus'" (I song I actually chuckle at when I hear it on the radio) and more about getting into the right "heart position" to worship. (some people will take the "bow down" literally, while some simply bow down their will to His Will.) I've seen my mom (& other worship leaders) use songs like Tim Hughes' "Light of the World" to turn a person's focus *from* themselves to *Christ*! Who (as I recall) is really the main focus of the song. (Thanks for so many pointing out the verses' messages above. :D)

I don't think you should *have* to sing along with song lyrics you don't agree with--even if there's nothing theologically "wrong" with them; because some of those could just be left up to personal taste. (now if you're not singing because "I don't wanna sing this song today!!" -- picture a pouty child. Then that's borderline rebellion, a *big* no-no!!!)
But I have songs I don't like to sing the lyrics of, because I don't agree with what they say, or simply can't relate because I haven't been where the song writer is coming from! I heard of a Christian artist who sd he would never sing lyrics about "seeing God face to face" because in the Old Testament God sd "no one can look on Me and live" to Moses. I, personally, don't agree, but that's called a difference of opinion and *that's* what makes not only our corporate worship, but also our individual worship, so incredibly special to the One Who formed us, shaped us, and planted individual worship tastes in us while we were still in our mother's wombs!
Worship is personal! I'm *never* going to worship the exact same way as my mother, even though she and I share oodles of DNA (and more personality traits than I will ever admit :D). But that's what makes it special to God. That's what makes it unique. That's why I think when you find a song you agree with, belt it out! Cuz you never know if your neighbor doesn't agree with the message that is speaking and ministering so deeply to *your* soul! :D

I might come into the presence of the King of Kings with a group, but when I bow before His throne, I'm not going to care what "we" are doing! I'm going to care what *He* wants from me. And if He wants me to tell Him that "I" am here to worship Him, or if He wants me to tell Him how "wonderful, beautiful, glorious, matchless in every way" He is, then I'll do that! (I figure He knows what He needs more than I do.)

P.S. Ken 21 - I totally agree. I grew up in churches that used not only "modern worship" but hymns as well, and they can be as equally "self-centered". The "I" theme runs deep in the human psyche so it would stand to reason that it would be predominate in every aspect of our existence. Humans are humans are humans! Or as stated in another wise saying by the Preacher "there is nothing new under the sun." :D
(hope this isn't too long for only a second post.) :D

[40. Laura said the following at 9:44 AM on Feb 17:]

40

Rachel, you said: "It's about a PERSONAL relationship with Christ, isn't it?"

Yes and no.

Yes, God calls each person. Yes, the death of Christ is applied to each Christian. But we are also joined to Christ. We are NEVER saved as "lone wolf" Christians, but rather we are saved INTO a community of faith -- the body of Christ throughout all generations. So salvation is both personal and corporate, and I think the music in our churches should represent both aspects!

My problem with "Here I am to worship" isn't the "I/me" part of it (as many other commenters have said, the Psalms frequently contain those words, as do many, many theologically rich hymns), but the fact that it's woefully overdone!

I think, as I mentioned before, that our music needs to find a balance. It should engage the mind AND the heart. It should celebrate the corporate life of God's people AND give each Christian the language to praise God for what he has done for ME! It should be directed horizontally (to one another) AND vertically (to the Lord). It should teach truth AND affect our emotions. It should emphasize God's justice AND his mercy, his law AND his grace!

This is a great example of why it pays to be intentional about developing a "canon" of songs in our churches.

[41. Jorden said the following at 10:19 AM on Feb 17:]

41

I agree with Annabelle(#19) about bowing down or about being on my knees. I always feel like if that's what I'm going to sing then that's what we should be doing, but many of the songs move too fast so it's impractical to do them.

I really like Bria's(#32) comment about the C.S. Lewis quote. In my Youth group(I'm a senior in HS)several of the kids don't focus that well during worship so sometimes they can be distracting(not as bad as it used to be though), so my tendency is to block out everyone around me and sing to God; so many times the "me-centric" songs make sense in those cases because I'm singing personally to God. But I do get your point that we are singing as a congregation and the music is supposed to be pointing to God. Our main worship services use a mixing of traditional hymns and CCM music. I enjoy the song selection most of the time, because we get a mix of some more modern stuff(including some of the "me-centric" songs) but we also get some of the older hymns with good theological content. I think it's a good trade off so we have a little of each to sing.

[42. LouiseinPA said the following at 10:19 AM on Feb 17:]

42

Tamara (#37)-There are actually a number of contemporary Catholic songwriters that have created songs directly from Bible verses. None of them are popular in the mass media but have contemporary songs with more depth. David haas, marty Haugen (sp?) are just two that I know of.

[43. Jonathon said the following at 10:52 AM on Feb 17:]

43

Just gonna throw this out there, I'm pretty sure it's not a sin to not sing. In reality I think God cares more about the state of our hearts than the words coming out our mouths.

Maybe this parable (from Matthew 21) can be applied to more than just worship music, but I think the idea behind it applies to what we're talking about here:

28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.

31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
"The first," they answered.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Overall I think the point is to worship God; the rest is really just unimportant details, and I'm not going to worry aobut them.

[44. Jonathon said the following at 10:54 AM on Feb 17:]

44

Bria #32 - wow, good point.

[45. Matt from DC said the following at 11:15 AM on Feb 17:]

45

Who says that you have to sing the same words that are in your hymnal or on are being projected on the big screen?

I often sing different words to certain songs. For example, in "Here I am to Worship" I will sometimes replace "my sin" with "Your Son". I can't help but sing the extra verse (sometimes silently) in Amazing Grace... "When we've been here ten thousand years"... even though John Newton didn't write it. Also I am fond of replacing "I" with "we" and "my" with "our" when I'm at church. One of the core concepts regarding worship is that we are expressing praise as an offering to the Lord. Let us always do this with consideration and never follow the crowd when your heart is not in it.

Farmer Tom #14,

Thank you for that edifying post. I am a fan of spiritual songs and hymns, but don't hear many psalms. It looks like I'm going to have to stop by Family Christian Bookstore sometime soon to make a CD purchase.

[46. Ambrosia said the following at 11:37 AM on Feb 17:]

46

Ok Motte... I am so confused!
What exactly is "me centered worship" and why is it supposedly wrong. We tell people everyday " Leave religion for a personal individualistic relationship with God" but how can we have this without a one on one walk with God that may be manifested in songs of what God has done for us personally.
Check out Psalms, especially when David was in the wilderness, although he spoke greatly of God's mercy, goodness, judgement...etc; he also spoke of how "HE" felt in regards to God. Unless I am understanding this wrongly, how can we refuse to sing "me centered" songs but can activlely pray "me centered prayers" asking for God's help, protection, forgiveness etc.
Now I will be the first to say content is so important but looking at "here I am to worship", I can not help but see a singer speaking of his desire to worship God, his love for God and his enduring expectation to see his savior face to face one day.

[47. Christina (in green) said the following at 11:55 AM on Feb 17:]

47

A lot of you guys who claim that you like theologically rich music or doctrinally correct music, et al...

And then going on about classic hymns...

You make this blanket statement as if there are no new songs coming out that are theologically rich or doctrinally correct.

No, not a fan of the "Jesus is my boyfriend" or the EXCESSIVE "I/me" music - but how many of you guys pay attention to the words in any worship song or hymn?

The last time I sang a hymn, I wasn't paying that close attention to the lyrics cuz I was too busy trying to stumble over the odd and difficult melody line with an organist who clearly didn't practice and a choir who didn't know it well, either. And I read music fairly well and it was still difficult.

Crown Him with Many Crowns...I love that hymn. Same with Holy, Holy, Holy...and Lift High the Cross...

Lyrics though? I can't really remember them all - just some tidbits here and there - "God in three persons, blessed trinity" is my favorite line in Holy, Holy, Holy.

Did you know that the "modern" contemporary worship song "God of Wonders" actually uses Holy, Holy, Holy as its under-refrain? The entire song is structured both melodically and lyrically around that Hymn.

But Farmer Tom would consider it inferior to a hymn because it is not a...HYMN.

Some people are using "Amazing Grace" as a counter-example of "me-centered" music. Yes, it IS a hymn. I'm kinda curious what Farmer Tom and all the others would say if they actually paid attention to the lyrics involved in that hymn that is seemingly acceptable for corporate worship:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost
but now I'm found
Was blind but now I see.

There are 5 more verses from an individual perspective. It only becomes corporate in the last verse.

Blessed Redeemer, Jesus is Mine is another hymn from an individualistic pov.
******************
I THINK that the main issue that we should have here is the lack of balance.

It isn't all about hymns. It isn't all about spiritual music. it isn't all about individualistic vs corporate. Its about a balance.

Most churches aren't paying attention to that balance. They pick songs that ARE doctrinally or theologically correct and rich (Tim Hughes "Here I am to Worship"). But they don't supplement the "I/Me" music with the "we" music. They don't take the best of hymns and contemporary music - they choose one type and stick with it.

To much of an emphasis on ME leads to an individualistic mindset - which is wrong and is WAY to prevalent in the church. Christianity is as much about community as it is a personal relationship with Christ. Why do you think the two commandments Christ laid out for us are first to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul and second to love your neighbor as yourself?

To much emphasis on WE leads to a lack of understanding in our own personal relationship with Christ.
*******************

The sin question - I understand praise and worship the same way I understand Communion in a liturgical church. The point of both is to be in communion with God. Whether that is individually or corporately or a combination of both - you are communing with God.

The Lutheran Church that is part of the WELS organization has a very strict policy about allowing non-members of the WELS church to take communion (This is different from the Catholic church where you must be BAPTIZED catholic to receive). The reason for it is due to some verses in 1 Cor 11:27-29.

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

I'd be more wont to believe that if you don't know or don't agree with what you are saying to God in song or otherwise, I think you'd best keep your mouth shut =p

Not the other way around.

[48. Lizzie said the following at 11:59 AM on Feb 17:]

48

Harry (#28):

I don't think anyone's saying that, no. As other people have mentioned above me, the Psalms are often extremely personal and have a lot of I's in them. I think often what's most important is that you're worshiping with your whole heart.

[49. Sam said the following at 12:11 PM on Feb 17:]

49

What about those of us who choose not to sing to commune more deeply with God during certain songs? I know for me that often if it's a particularly stirring song that I really want to focus on, I'll just bow my head and close my eyes and meditate on the song and speak to God.

[50. Some Dude said the following at 12:47 PM on Feb 17:]

50

Does this mean I have to sing Shine Jesus Shine?

[51. Kari said the following at 2:44 PM on Feb 17:]

51

I just am sad that my church doesn't include even the more well-known of the really old hymns. Can't we have some "Rock of Ages", or some "Great is Thy Faithfulness"? Or how about a simple round of "Up from the Grave He Arose" or A Mighty Fortress is Our God" or "Be Thou my Vision"???? I was raised in conservative presbyterian and baptist churches, and while I love many modern songs, I REALLY miss the "oldies" of the faith!

[52. Elizabeth said the following at 3:12 PM on Feb 17:]

52

I also think that if a song has lyrics about bowing or lifting hands or whatever, it's ridiculous to sing them and not do them. Sometimes I'll do whatever it is, and sometimes I'll keep my mouth shut; which choice I make does depend a lot on the style of music (i.e. Do the motions in the lyrics seem appropriate in the context of the song? In the context of the service?).

I can't make myself sing the same line 12 or 15 times straight. By then, I really don't mean it, no matter how good the line is. I'll sing it five or six times and then shut up (though I'm probably wondering when it'll be over after three times). You know it's bad when the worship leader has to yell "Here we go!" to signal that it's finally time to move on to the next part of the song....

Some modern songs are good, and some are bad (theologically, musically, or grammatically, and all are worth consideration; grammar really can change the meaning or connotation, and bad music is a distraction), and the same goes for the older hymns. The difference is that time has been allowed to sift the older songs; there's probably something worth singing in a song that continues to be used after generations. The worst will eventually be forgotten, and the best will be passed on. I do worry, though, that the new songs are replaced too frequently. Just when you start to learn a good song well enough to sing it without gluing your eyes to the projector, it's replaced in usage by one that's either no good or maybe good but unfamiliar, and then you don't hear the first one any more.

Personally, I generally prefer hymns, but that is partly because I don't have a magically musical ear and can sing much more confidently if I can see the notes as well as hear them. Also, if everybody has his own hymnal, anybody who doesn't turn the page in time is only confusing himself.... When the projector is on the wrong screen, everybody's confused! :)

[53. Vanessa said the following at 4:14 PM on Feb 17:]

53

#24 - "It's the rising up all around; it's the anthem of the Lord's renown" is one of my FAVORITE couplets from a worship song! It leads into "Holy is the Lord God Almighty. The earth is filled with His Glory."

While it may be "lofty language" it is a literary gem. When we sing that song in our young adult worship service, all of us who actually know what it literally means are lifting our hands in praise. It means that all over the place, people are lifting up their voices to sing of how wonderful our God is...and then it elaborates with "Holy is the Lord God Almighty."

Maybe if you don't understand what the word "anthem" or the word "renown" mean, it can seem like a filler to you.

When I was a little kid, we used to sing a song based on scripture that had a line "we are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation" and I always sang it "we are a FROZEN generation" instead. Oops. Or when my mom had to respond to my insistent tugging on her sleeve when I asked her what a "diadem" was during worship ("Bring forth the royal diadem and crown Him Lord of all.") I guess I just needed someone to explain to me what it meant, and then I "got" it.

[54. farmer Tom said the following at 4:27 PM on Feb 17:]

54

47. Christina (in green),

Just one question for you,

using standard English grammar, please tell me what the subject of "Amazing Grace" is????

Do you have any questions?

[55. Al said the following at 4:45 PM on Feb 17:]

55

I think it's possible to sing songs with a lot of 'I' content and yet for them to not be primarily about us. In fact, I think it may sometimes be necessary to incorporate 'I' songs to glorify God more fully-- like a good Reformed preacher says, God is most glorified when we are (and I am) most satisfied in Him.

I think some songs that might fuel self-fixation can actually be redeemed by placing them in a set with songs that emphasize praise as a community along with those that exalt God's goodness with no reference to ourselves. This allows us to personally be about His goodness because of the ways His goodness is and has been for us, even as we affirm His objective goodness apart from who we are.

[56. hxcjf said the following at 5:45 PM on Feb 17:]

56

Ever read the Psalms?

Praise: How great God is.
Worship: Our response to him.

We sing both praise and worship. Just because its old doesn't mean its right and vice versa.

[57. Janelle said the following at 8:00 PM on Feb 17:]

57

Ryan (23), I can't agree that there are no theologians among today's songwriters and worship leaders. Vicky Beeching, for example has a theology degree from Oxford, and she also writes some of the best worship music I've heard in a long time.

And in the theology class I'm currently taking at a seminary, there are several people who are working as worship leaders in their churches right now. I don't know whether or not they can write good songs, but it's not because they haven't got good theological training!

[58. Leah said the following at 4:19 AM on Feb 18:]

58

BDB (1) - I don't think this post was about the attitude of songs (like "lovey-dovey feelings" VS "serious sacrifice on the cross"). I think it's more talking about songs which (legitimately) talk about us as individuals rather than us as a group.

In regards to the original post: I agree. If a person says "we shouldn't sing songs that refer to us as individuals in church", well where else are we going to? Sure, some people sing praise songs in their homes, but not a lot, not routinely. Some churches encourage people to pray silently during a prayer time- that's individual prayer in a corporate setting. We shouldn't be acting like us as individuals are the centre of the universe, but I don't think that's what these songs are doing.

Leah W - bizarre! My maiden surname began with W!

[59. Tehilah said the following at 7:47 AM on Feb 18:]

59

Farmer Tom - excellent post. I love these verses and enjoyed the commentary.

My name is the Hebrew word for Psalm, And since I speak modern Hebrew,
I thought perhaps I can presumptuously add a bit to your definition.

The word Psalm (Tehila, singular of Tehilim) in Hebrew has the added connotation of "singing of the fame" or "glorifying" someone. The word contains in it the root form of Hilah, which is also aura - or glory.

Looking over the Psalms, I find that in every one of them there is at least one strong verse extolling the virtue of God. Even if the rest of the song is a long grumble about David's enemies :-)

Therefore when I hear the term "sing Psalms" I generally include all songs that speak of God's awesome power, holiness, glory, etc.

Perhaps for this reason I've struggled, like Motte, with what I've called (in the past) "junk worship". There are songs I have a hard time singing because I cannot do so with integrity (because they focus on man's love and faithfulness, which are fickle), then there are songs I have a hard time singing because I don't find them theologically sound. Then there are those songs I just don't like for musical reasons. Recently I felt a check in my spirit about using the above term to describe these songs - for some, they are honest expressions of worship. So now, I just stand silent when we sing them.

God says many times in His word that He is not interested in lip service, but in a heart that worships Him in spirit and in truth. For this reason I side with Motte and say "stand silent, better to be quiet than to sing untruth". But often, in my heart, I become critical in the midst of worship and lose my focus on the Lord. So next time this happens, I will strive to remember Farmer Tom's "spiritual songs" and quietly refocus on the Lord as I wait for a song I can sing in spirit AND in truth.

I would also suggest that any of you who find problematic theology in songs simply approach the worship leader and speak to them respectfully about it. Our Worship Leader is lovely and humble and would probably phase out songs that are Biblically unsound.

The important thing is that God be praised.

[60. Christina (in green) said the following at 7:53 AM on Feb 18:]

60

Farmer Tom,

I know what the subject of Amazing Grace is.

But the argument was about individualized songs being sung in corporate worship.

If that's not the entire gist of what your getting at, then please elaborate further.

I just think its rather narrow minded to think that the only GOOD stuff that has ever been written is the OLD stuff - as if there's not chance that someone nowadays could come up with a classic. Or that all the old stuff is theologically correct.

Its kinda like the assumption that the only theologians worthy of note are the ones who have been dead and buried for 100 years. As if God has suddenly shut his mouth and doesn't speak through his people anymore.

I'm not trying to make you a fan of modern worship music...i really honestly prefer a little of both in church music...I just think a little more discernment is in order than simply "old is best".

[61. Matt from DC said the following at 11:36 AM on Feb 18:]

61

Christina (in green),

What is going on with you? You are falsely representing what Farmer Tom has been saying. I suggest you calm down and reread what he wrote. The entire gist of what Farmer Tom was getting at was his closing sentence: "Maybe your worship leaders are confusing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs??" He provided Biblical context about the topic, definitions for the terms, and some personal examples to explain himself.

[62. farmer Tom said the following at 11:41 AM on Feb 18:]

62

60. Christina (in green),

I fully admit my inadequacy as a writer to convey my point, I ain't so good at it.

But, where did I say old is better?

Either I'm even worse at reading than I am at writing but I've reread the post several times, and I can not find it in there.

My point was simply that there are more than one kind of music which are useful to the spiritual life of a believer. Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs.

But, some of them are far more useful for corporate worship, (the body of believers worshiping together), than others. Some spiritual songs simply have no place in corporate worship. It is both an abuse of the believer, by forcing him/her to sing a song whose style is uncomfortable or unfamiliar to them, and it dishonors the term worship to make the participants sing or do something which makes them uncomfortable.

How can one have the attitude of worship while at the same time being uncomfortable with the music they are singing??

Old is not better. One of the best songs in the last ten years is Philip, Craig and Deans, "Your Grace Still Amazes Me"

That is an extremely powerful piece of music. Gives me goose bumps, but it is not appropriate for corporate worship because...frankly most of you are not capable of singing it and making it sound the way it should.

Why don't those who take on the role of music/worship leader learn to use the proper kind of Biblically based music for the proper role in worship, Psalms and Hymns for corporate worship, spiritual songs for personal worship and possibly entertainment?

[63. Tami said the following at 12:17 PM on Feb 18:]

63

Kari (51), I will sing with you!:

Up from the grave He arose,
With a mighty triumph o’er His foes,
He arose a Victor from the dark domain,
And He lives forever, with His saints to reign.
He arose! He arose!
Hallelujah! Christ arose!
--Robert Lowry, 1874

:)

[64. Jonathan said the following at 12:22 PM on Feb 18:]

64

Alright...this is a bit long, but it is a summation of my feelings on this topic. This has been debated for over a millenia, so really what we are discussing is nothing new.

First, I think the 'me' factor of songs is very easy to dismiss simply by examining several popular hymns and seeing whether 'me' focused songs really are a new animal. For instance, 'Amazing Grace': Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me; I once was blind, but now I see, was lost but now am found. First line has 3 stated 'me' pronouns with two implied. Other good hymns are 'In Christ Alone', 'At the Cross', 'Be Thou My Vision', 'Come Thou Fount', etc. etc. Usually when I bring this up I am met with a second argument along the lines of, 'well but the old hymns, while focusing on a personal relationship, still emphasized God and His glory instead of a wishy-washy friendship type love song. Besides, there's no meat in today's songs, just endless, brainless repetition.'

So that brings us to point #2...do today's worship songs almost exclusively focus on a 'Jesus is my boyfriend' style relationship? Certainly there are songs that fall under this category, where if an innocent bystander heard it they might just assume you're singing about your boyfriend or girlfriend rather than God. This is definitely a valid concern, but I would argue that there are many songs out there that do not fall into this category...in fact I would say that most that I have heard do not. Several examples would be, 'Holy is the Lord', 'Sing to the King', 'Blessed be Your Name', 'O Praise Him', 'Not to Us', 'Indescribable', 'How Great is Our God', 'Majesty', 'No One Like You', 'Can You Feel the Mountains Tremble', etc. etc. I could go on and on with this list but I think that serves to illustrate my point.

Regarding endless repetition, I cannot see how this is anything other than a personal preference. In Revelation 4:8-11 John records, "And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“ Holy, holy, holy,[f]
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “ You are worthy, O Lord,[g]
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist[h] and were created.”

So these folks up in heaven repeat these stanzas over and over again, yet somehow that is seen as a perfect form of worship to our God. Therefore, how can we sit down here on earth and exclaim that a song is not good because it is so repetitive? Now such a song might become extremely dull to me and you, but does that say more about us or the song?

It seems to me that the discussion between modern music and hymns really comes down to style preference (As has been the case for hundreds of years). There are plenty of modern songs being written in a hymn style now, and in addition many modern artists are also re-recording hymns set to a more current musical style. So it is not like hymns are being forgotten, nor can it truly be said that the music produced today is uniformly bad lyrically. And while many songs may focus on an individual relationship with God, is that really any different than what we see in scripture? In the Psalms David records mostly feeling about his relationship with God, Mary also sings about her own relationship with God...this is not a new idea, and it is very scriptural.

So if you do not like the style of modern worship music then fine, but just be open to the fact that some people may prefer it to the style of hymns, which can be difficult to understand at times because of the language they use. Everyone has preferences, the ultimate question is really what is in your heart? If the lyrics are sound theologically, then what is your position as you sing them? This is really and truly the heart of the matter.

[65. Mark said the following at 5:01 PM on Feb 18:]

65

I don't know if anyone has said this or not, but in the commands to sing in the NT, both are singing to each other, with hearts towards God. How about a service where we turn to those sitting next to us and look 'em in the eye while singing. awkward, but I sing to God all the time, and do not need the church for it. In fact, my CD's are better quality, so what is the point of singing together if we're not singing to each other. Anyone attend a corporate worship time where we are not looking at a hymnal, screen, or music leader, but looking at each other?

[66. Al said the following at 5:04 PM on Feb 18:]

66

For what it's worth, one commentor of the article quoted noted that the song that seemed to bug the author when sung in a congregational setting actually has really strong Reformed theology:

I am not skilled to understand
What God has willed, what God has planned
I only know at His right hand
Stands one who is my Savior

I take Him at His word and deed
Christ died to save me; this I read
And in my heart I find a need
Of Him to be my savior

That He would leave His place on high
And come for sinful man to die
You count it strange, so once did I
Before I knew my Savior

Sure the chorus is more simplistic, croony, and uses "me" a fair amount, but the focus and subject of glory is obviously Jesus, and the song works pretty well in our congregation.

I used to be overly into "me" songs, and as I understood the need to move away from self-fixated to God-fixated worship, I shifted a bit towards songs with minimal use of first-person pronouns. But I'm starting to see that songs with personal engagement has an extremely important place in praise and worship music-- and that they are best served alongside songs that facilitate self-abandoned praise as well as congregational praise. Sometimes it's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to the amount of "me's" and "I's" in a song, and count "I's Per Beat" versus "Jesus's Per Beat", but I think the essence of the issue is whether or not the I's and me's serve Christ's glory within the song and within the set.

[67. Ted Slater said the following at 5:06 PM on Feb 18:]

67

Mark (#65) -- EXCELLENT question, and EXCELLENT points. Colossians 3:16 is one of my favorites, and speaks directly to this:

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God."

Lots of people wonder what the purpose of singing in the church might be. And there it is, clearly and richly spelled out.

[68. Ted Slater said the following at 5:18 PM on Feb 18:]

68

Al (#66) -- It happens that the rich lyrical content for that song (the verses) was written in 1873 by Dora Greenwell. The "more simplistic, crooney" chorus was tacked on by CCM musician Aaron Shust, perhaps in an effort to make the song more palatable for modern tastes.

Yeah, I'm a bit cynical about much of today's lyric writing, most of which is vomited out of some mysterious random Christian cliche concatenation software.

Strange. When I google the song, all I see is "Words and Music by Aaron Shust." I don't see any credit given to the woman who wrote the meat of the song's lyrics.

[69. Al said the following at 6:59 PM on Feb 18:]

69

Ted, thanks. I had no idea the song was an update of an earlier composition. Apparently it was originally a poem. I do think the modern melody serves the verse pretty well, and the more simplistic, emotional refrain serves as a visceral response to heady truth. But I've been known to like hymm updates with modern choruses tacked on in general, like Passion/Chris Tomin's version of Take My Life.

[70. Texas Craig said the following at 9:04 PM on Feb 18:]

70

Ted:

I also dislike much of the really popular contemporary Christian music out there. But, at the same time, there is some great stuff out there now as well. Part of the problem is people have different tastes and personalities. Music is like other arts, such as poetry or paintings. Some people prefer something very literal and in your face, whereas others really are impacted by the subtle messages contained in the artwork. Take, for example, the David Crowder Band song "Stars." Here are the lyrics:

You should see the stars tonight
How they shimmer and shine so bright
Against the black they look so white
Coming down from such a height
To reach me now, reach me now

You should see the moon in flight
Cutting across the misty night
Softly dancing in sunshine
Reflections of this light
Reach me now, reach me now

How could such a thing
Shine its light on me
And make everything beautiful again

You should feel the sun in the spring
Coming out after a rain
Suddenly all is green
Sunshine on everything
I can feel it now, I feel You now

And how could such a thing
Shine its light on me
And make everything beautiful

You should hear the angels sing
All gathered around their King
More beautiful than you could dream
I've been quietly listening
You can hear them now, I hear them now

And how could such a King
Shine His light on me
And make everything beautiful
And I want to shine
I want to be light
I want to tell you it'll be alright
And I want to shine and I want to fly
Just to tell you now
It'll be alright, it'll be alright
It'll be alright.

Because I've got nothing of my own to give to you
But this light that shines on me shines on you
And makes everything beautiful, again.
It'll be alright, it'll be alright.

(Back to my comments) Some people will think this is just an empty song with no real theological import. But, I would strongly disagree. To me, the song presents a beautiful analogy of redemption. The song contrasts the moon and the sun. The sun is the source of light and gives life to things. The moon provides no life of its own, but can still provide light simply by reflecting the sunlight. In the same way, in ourselves, we can produce no light, nothing good. But, when we reflect the light of the Son in our lives, it can shine on those around us. We have nothing in ourselves to offer people, but the God that redeemed us can reach out and redeem others when we faithfully reflect His light by our life. That is an incredibly powerful and inspirational song to me.

Or, consider these lyrics from another David Crowder Band song, "Wholly Yours:"

I am full of earth
You are heaven’s worth
I am stained with dirt, prone to depravity
You are everything that is bright and clean
The antonym of me
You are divinity
But a certain sign of grace is this
From a broken earth flowers come up
Pushing through the dirt

You are holy, holy, holy
All heaven cries “Holy, holy God”
You are holy, holy, holy
I want to be holy like You are

You are everything that is bright and clean
And You’re covering me with Your majesty
And the truest sign of grace was this
From wounded hands redemption fell down
Liberating man

You are holy, holy, holy
All heaven cries “Holy, holy God”
You are holy, holy, holy
I want to be holy like You are

But the harder I try the more clearly can I feel
The depth of our fall and the weight of it all
And so this might could be the most impossible thing
Your grandness in me making me clean

Glory, hallelujah
Glory, glory, hallelujah
You are holy, holy, holy
All heaven cries “Holy, holy God”
You are holy, holy, holy
I want to be holy, holy

So here I am, all of me
Finally everything
Wholly, wholly, wholly
I am wholly, wholly, wholly
I am wholly, wholly, wholly Yours

I am wholly Yours
I am full of earth and dirt and You

(That is powerful stuff to me, and is theologicaly chock full of truth, but it is presented in a subtle way; the presentation doesn't make it any less significant, just because some people don't care for or simply don't get the subtlety in the message)

Anyway, that's my $.02 worth.

[71. Ken said the following at 9:49 PM on Feb 18:]

71

Ted (#68), it's Dorothy Greenwell, and it came right up for me.

[72. Rachael said the following at 10:21 PM on Feb 18:]

72

re: sun & moon analogy (comment 70)

-->People who like this analogy might enjoy "You are the Sun" sung by Sara groves...

[73. Ted Slater said the following at 10:43 PM on Feb 18:]

73

Ken (#71) -- not to be harsh or anything, but your "correction" is pedantic. The author of those lyrics is Dora Greenwell, who *also* went by the name Dorothy. My legal name is "Theodore," but everyone calls me "Ted."

When I google "aaron shust my savior my god," Dora's name rarely comes up associated with that song (only once, as second billing, on the first four pages of google results). In most cases Aaron Shust alone receives credit for the lyrics, and the comments all praise him for his excellent lyric-writing. It just strikes me as unfair that Shust gets credit and acclaim for lyrics he did not write. Maybe his label is to blame for not giving Dora the credit due her.

Maybe I don't understand your comment, Ken. Can you help me understand the tone and purpose of it?

[74. Ken said the following at 12:27 AM on Feb 19:]

74

I didn't mean anything hurtful. I wasn't familiar with that hymn, so I typed in the first line into Google. The first result was cyberhymnal.org, and the page about her gave Dorothy as her name, with Dora underneath. So then I typed her name into Google, and I got a whole bunch of sites mentioning her by name regarding the song. I guess I just looked it up differently than you did.

[75. Jo said the following at 12:30 AM on Feb 19:]

75

Mark 64:
"How about a service where we turn to those sitting next to us and look 'em in the eye while singing?"

Ooooh now that's a wonderful idea. How about some 'you' focused songs? Encouraging other believers about what Christ did/does for them... I wonder why we don't have any already... Maybe I'll write one. :P

[76. Matt from DC said the following at 7:29 AM on Feb 19:]

76

The idea of singing to others sounds interesting. However, it requires an even number of people for someone not to be left out. It also would be hindered by an odd numbered group sitting a short distance away from everyone else. In our church there is enough room sometimes that people spread out. I don't know what motivates people to sit in the back and away from everyone else, but this would throw off the pairing.

[77. Paul said the following at 7:54 AM on Feb 19:]

77

Is it worth pointing out that time has a habbit of filtering out stuff that is not particularly notable?

Over time, the useless products dissapear from our shops, the tasteless food dissapears from our cookbooks, the people who didn't acheive much dissapear from our history books, and the poorly written novels dissapear from our libraries.

Worship songs are no different. Isaac Watts wrote 697 hymns, do you know them all? 150 of Charles Wesley's hymns are recorded in our Methodist Hymn book in the UK - or in other words, over 5,000 of them were not considered to be worth including. In 100 years time, most of today's contemporary worship songs will have dissapeared, but some will be cherrished as classic hymns set to the music of of a past age.

I'm really struggling to understand Farmer Tom's concept of "Biblically based music". Surely Biblically based music would be written to be played on harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets, rather than pipe organs.

[78. farmer Tom said the following at 11:56 AM on Feb 19:]

78

77. Paul said,

I'm really struggling to understand Farmer Tom's concept of "Biblically based music". Surely Biblically based music would be written to be played on harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets, rather than pipe organs.

Don't have a lot of time now Paul, but in short, yes Biblically based music would include those things,

my point, was that some styles/types of music are more suited for corporate worship than others,

you understand the difference between lifting ones voice to God in praise, and jamming to "Judas Kiss" at full volume, don't you? I believe both are worthwhile in the spiritual life of a believer, but one is absolutely not a song conducive to corporate worship.

[79. Tami said the following at 12:35 PM on Feb 19:]

79

Jo (75), good point! And one hymn of exhortation popped into my head -- Fanny Crosby's "To God be the Glory." There's a verse that says,

Great things He has taught us, great things He has done,
And great our rejoicing through Jesus the Son;
But purer, and higher, and greater will be
Our wonder, our transport, when Jesus we see.

And the chorus could be seen as exhortative (word?), too:

Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
Let the earth hear His voice!
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
Let the people rejoice!
O come to the Father, through Jesus the Son,
And give Him the glory, great things He has done.

I'm beginning to really love this thread. Every time I visit, a wonderful hymn of praise comes to mind. :)

[80. Kevin said the following at 7:16 PM on Feb 21:]

80

I think it's ironic the verses to Tim Hughes' "Here I am to Worship" are taken from an old hymn. I heard him discuss this with Matt Redman in the extras on the "Facedown" DVD. He just added the chorus. I am sorry I can't recall the name of the hymn, as it was obsure.

[81. Chryl said the following at 10:53 AM on Feb 23:]

81

I especially love hymns and praise that has substance and is not just a few words repeated over and over again. This kind of repetition eventually loses me to frustration. After struggling with this for a time, I have finally found a way to honor God during these types of songs. As soon I perceive the repetition will be ongoing, I begin to praise the Lord silently using my own words. I believe this is the most God-honoring thing I can do at the time, and it puts my focus back on the One who is being praised.

[82. Jon Royal said the following at 8:25 AM on Feb 25:]

82

Motte,

I couldn't agree with you more. This is a frustration that I have had with the modern evangelical movement for a long time. That so many of the songs use the "I" instead of the "we". I have always believed that the Church is a body of people, we rise and fall as one community and as one people. Yet, it seems that some of the aspects of the modern evangelical movement in hopes of bringing new people to a life with Christ that we have shifted and transferred our worship to be so condusive to that lifestyle that going to church starts to reflect our modern consumerist culture more than it does the Body of Christ. And in a symbolic sense, our churches simply become malls and marketing centers.

Our culture is one of "I's and "mes" and never "wes" if our faith follows that path will eventually come to a point where it will mean nothing anymore. For "me" at least, that is my biggest discontent with the Church and my reasoning for looking for different, more communial modes of worship.

You hit the nail on the head Mottie.

Thanks,

Jon

[83. Jeremy said the following at 8:52 PM on Feb 26:]

83

So does this mean that you don't like older hymns that are lyrically individualistic, such as: "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like ME. I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see." Uh-oh! 1 ME and 2 Is in only 2 sentences.

[84. BDB said the following at 11:24 PM on Feb 26:]

84

I guess that combining comments 82 and 83 explains why Amazing Grace is playing on the local CCW station. An not any of the "we" Hymns...

[85. Pastor Eric said the following at 4:55 PM on Mar 20:]

85

How is not singing a sin? I guess it could be if you were not singing out of some sort of rebellion. Anyway, interesting reading. Thanks for sharing.

Blessings

[86. Kim said the following at 6:26 AM on Sep 10:]

86

I do understand your fear of the me me mentality but worship is when we humble ourselves before the Lord and worship Him for who He is with no agendas or needs just an intimate time of thanking Him for all He is. In order to truly enter into intimate relationship with Him it does become personal between He and I. Even though you are in corporate worship we still enter into His gates with thanksgiving and it is intimate. Praise songs use more of the we's than worship because we express joy in the Lord and we can dance together but true intimacy that Jesus calls us to is more intimate between He and I.

[1. BDB said the following at 3:52 PM on Feb 16:]

1

I like the Chris Tomlin one more than the Jesus-is-my-boyfriend songs...at least it acknowledges that a price was paid on the cross, it's not all about lovey-dovey feelings...

[2. Hannah C. said the following at 4:24 PM on Feb 16:]

2

While it doesn't usually stop me from worshiping, I have to admit that praise and worship songs have nothing on hymns...especially not the Episcopal hymns I grew up with.

"Here I am to worship"
vs
"Crown Him with many crowns"
...
The latter will win every time!

But praise and worship does have a place. I think it is perhaps too prevalent though. But to each his own...as long as it's not heretical.

[3. Jacob said the following at 4:36 PM on Feb 16:]

3

Motte,

I don't understand how I could be sinning by not singing. Could you lay out your pastor's reasoning?

I'm one of the people who has a hard time with what I perceive to be "hyper-individualism" in corporate worship, so I am honestly interested in hearing how he brought you to that conclusion.

It is a sensitive issue and deserves careful consideration of all the factors involved.

[4. Marie said the following at 4:56 PM on Feb 16:]

4

"He said that if you're not singing simply because you don't like the style, then you could be in sin. Because musical preferences shouldn't dictate your participation in corporate worship."

I... SOMEWHAT agree. But I think the wording somewhat downplays the role music itself, aside from lyrics, plays in worship. Many times I do not sing along because I would not be sincere if I did; my sincerity is affected by the musical style. Ex: "I could sing of your love forever..." (repeat 100 times). Besides recognizing that the lyrics exaggerate and I could not literally sing forever, the fact that I dislike the style makes it hard to feel the sentiment expressed in the song. Or take the "waves of mercy, waves of grace" song. All the "na na na na na na na, na na na nanana na"s... the simplistic tune repeated SO many times just frustrates me to the point that I am not in a worshipful mindset. Then there's the "Oh my God, this love, how can it be?" phrase, which I'm uncomfortable with because it sounds more like the valleygirl "OMG!!!!! [I love your hair!]" expression (and misusing the Lord's name) rather than an awed expression of TO God. It's not that the words are incorrect, but the overall effect of tune, tempo, lyrics, etc. gives an impression that isn't conducive to worship, for me anyway.

Also, as a musician with a trained ear, the quality of music affects my worship experience- if I'm hearing something off-key or out of tempo, it distracts me from worship... if that is the case, I shouldn't TRY to sing words I do not mean because I would be a hypocrite and a liar.

On a related note, I was looking at Pastor James MacDonald's blog the other day and he had a post about why his church doesn't sing certain songs: "On Songs We Don't Sing", http://blog.harvestbiblefellowship.org/

Finally, I agree with Motte about the individualisticity of many "worship" songs. Part of the problem, I think, is that worship leaders sometimes try to turn a "great song on the radio" into a congregational worship song, and often the transition just doesn't work. For example, "I'm coming back to the heart of worship... I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it..."... What started as an individual praying & repenting to God now becomes a congregation forced to apologize for a sin that maybe many of them never committed, or that maybe some have committed but are not truly repenting of simply by singing a song along with everyone else.

[5. HER said the following at 5:08 PM on Feb 16:]

5

No musical preferences should not dictate our behavior in corporate worship. But is it possible that the church in general does not think enough about how we worship God? Is it fine for the church to do and say anything during His worship or should we focus on the way He has asked us to worship Him? It often seems to me that we worship in whatever style is currently popular and most likely to appeal to the sense of the most people. This seems very ME focused. Perhaps it is wrong to not sing something as long as the words are correct, but perhaps we as a body are not thinking enough about what we are singing, praying, and doing as we come before the throne of grace. Are we truly reverencing the Lord or are we doing things that make us feel good.

[6. Adam said the following at 5:14 PM on Feb 16:]

6

I noticed that you attributed "Here I am to Worship" to Chris Tomlin. Actually that's a Tim Hughes song. But anyways, one question: just who decides if a song is self centred, and whether a song can or cannot be used in corporate worship?

For example:

There's a peace I've come to know
Though my heart and flesh may fail
There's an anchor for my soul
I can say, it is well

Jesus has overcome,
and the grave is overwhelmed
the victory is won
He is risen from the dead

And I will rise when He calls my name
No more sorrow, no more pain
I will rise on eagles wings
before my God, fall on my knees and rise

There's a day that's drawing near
when this darkness breaks to light
and the shadows disappear
and my faith shall be my eyes

And I hear the voice of many angels sing, worthy is the Lamb
and I hear the cry of every longing heart, worthy is the Lamb

Is this self centred or not? I'm sure there would be several different opinions. I personally think it is a beautiful song for corporate worship.

[7. Rachael said the following at 5:22 PM on Feb 16:]

7

I suppose it would be better if we could take care to keep our mouths closed, though, on parts of the songs that we don't mean, unless perhaps we at that moment intend to mean it...

[8. Derek Wong said the following at 5:28 PM on Feb 16:]

8

I get the same feeling when there are worship songs with so many references to us. My feeling is that worship should be about God and the work that He has done in our lives. While this is obviously very important for us because He has saved us, that cannot be the focus all of the time (like it currently is in worship songs it seems). Because really it's about so much more than us.

And *gasp* I say this even though I agree more with Jacobus Arminius.

[9. Brad said the following at 5:45 PM on Feb 16:]

9

I never sing the bridge when we do "Here I am to worship." It just doesn't seem right. I think the day I look Jesus in the eye, face to face, I'll know exactly how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross. But I digress.

Call me crazy, but I actually prefer hymns musically as well as doctrinally. While many popular hymns are surprisingly simple and can be played on a guitar using 3 to 5 chords, they still seem more... musical... than most contemporary songs.

But in general, I enjoy singing and playing any song that focuses on God and not just my experience, even if the experience is me worshiping.

[10. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 5:49 PM on Feb 16:]

10

I hear you, Motte. I am a member of a non-denominational but Reformed-leaning church whose leaders are very careful about the theological content of the songs we sing. However, in the past, in other churches, that was not always the case. I tend to go with "sing the songs, unless my conscience truly will not allow it." I have to admit, I do struggle with singing songs that don't go well with Reformed theology. :-)

Man, there were way too many "I's" in this comment! :-)

[11. David in Cambridge said the following at 6:09 PM on Feb 16:]

11

I can sympathize with Motte's observations. I think most of this problem could be fixed with more worship leader training. It seems that the evangelical community often fails to recognize that a song that is superb for private worship, i.e. on your radio, iPod, or computer, is not necessarily an equally good song for corporate worship. Besides the over-abundance of "I"s described above, there are also songs like "Blessed Be Your Name" that are technically difficult and wholly unsuitable for singing in a group.

I'm not a worship leader, but I'd guess that for most their route of exposure to new music is pretty similar to mine--the radio, friends, etc. We should not be surprised then that their choices mirror the popular music. There are composers of Christian contemporary corporate music (i.e. Keith Getty), but for reasons that should be obvious, they are not as well known (who buys a CD of corporate music?). Along with more worship leader training would come exposure to these options.

The Bible draws a clear distinction between personal and corporate worship ("wherever two or more are gathered..."). I would not encourage people to forgo singing songs they think are more appropriate for their daily commute. For one, it is my position to follow the pastor's lead; and second, while it may not be as helpful as it could be, I doubt that it is harmful. Just as leading the adult congregation in "Jesus Loves Me" would not be wrong, though entirely inappropriate, worship leaders need to recognize that different songs are appropriate for different settings.

[12. YvetteS said the following at 6:09 PM on Feb 16:]

12

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

"And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God" (Read all of 2 Sam 6 for the context - David was actually violating the rules regarding the Ark as well)

Consider that both the Old and New Testament have several rules regarding what is and is not acceptable in regard to worship.

1 Cor 14, 1 Cor 11, Numbers 9, just to name a few.

Note that in both the Old and New Testament, the form or STYLE - not just lyrics - of worship, when done improperly, can reap deadly punishment.

I expect there will be some debate as to what styles are acceptable or not.

But the clear point from the Bible is that God does care, very much, about how we approach Him. We have no Scriptural grounds to say that style doesn't matter to God.

[13. Anna B said the following at 6:22 PM on Feb 16:]

13

Motte-
I'm sure you'll agree that the point of worship to honor and love Jesus and to commune with Him. When we worship in song, whether or not we sing with "I" or with "We," if He is not being adored, we aren't worshiping. Because of the unique way music moves our spirits, when a community of people individually worship, the individual hearts are knit to Him and to each in other in a very special way (again, regardless of the use of "We" or "I"). And since the point of worship is to approach the throne of grace and meet with the God-Man Jesus Christ in an intimate way, I don't think we should worry about whether or not we are building community 1) because building community is not the point of worship and 2) because it happens automatically in true worship.

Lastly, Motte, I think He so appreciates your heart to honor Him and "not sin," but I think it's easy to get legalistic when we start asking if everything we're doing is sin or "not sin" (unless otherwise dictated in the Bible-e.g. adultery is sin because the Bible says it is) He isn't most honored when we're "not-sinning;" He's most honored when we're loving Him. Because we can "not sin" and also not love Him; but if we love Him, we're automatically not sinning. For instance, asking, "If I don't sing this song because I think it's not appropriate for corporate worship, will I be sinning?" is probably not as helpful as asking, "Jesus, am I loving You when I sing this song? And is my hesitancy to sing this song because I genuinely want to love You more and I think this song is hindering me from doing that? Or is it because I don't think it measures up to my standard of what I think corporate worship should be?" When we ask if something possibly ambiguous is sin (again, unless clearly outlined in the Bible), we're concentrating on ourselves and our state of righteousness (which obviously, we are called to do as Christians-but I think that constantly and solely looking at ourselves does not help us love Him more or transform us into His image the way looking at Him does) instead of concentrating on His heart-on whether or not He delights in the attitude of our heart, on what makes Him happy, etc. etc.

[14. farmer Tom said the following at 6:36 PM on Feb 16:]

14

Funny that you should mention this topic, after the Scripture I was reading yesterday.

Maybe the problem is more about what we think music is than anything else.

What is a hymn?

Do you know what is and what is not, a hymn?

What do these verses mean?

Ephesians 5:19

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

and Colossians 3:16

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit seems to be suggesting that there was more than one kind of music with which to worship God.

from Strong's Concordance,

psalms

psalmos

) a striking, twanging

a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument

b) of a pious song, a psalm

hymns

hymnos

1) a song in tithe praise of gods, heroes, conquerors

2) a sacred song, hymn

spiritual songs

pneumatikos ōdē

or combining both definitions

pneumatikos

1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ

a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul

2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God

3) belonging to the Divine Spirit

a) of God the Holy Spirit

b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God

(NOTE: I am condensing here),relating to the human spirit or rational soul, as the part of man which is akin to God, and serves as his instrument or organ, .......belonging to the spirit.......thoughts, opinions, precepts, maxims ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul.....

1) a song, lay, ode

a song in praise of God or Christ

In summary a spiritual song is one in which the human spirit or a rational soul sings in praise of God or Christ, thoughts, opinions, precepts or maxims ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul.

So there are three distinct kinds of music.

Psalms,
pious music with instruments, (IMO) directly from Scripture

Hymns,
sacred songs of praise to God

and spiritual songs,
songs in which the human spirit or a rational soul sings in praise of God or Christ, thoughts, opinions, precepts or maxims ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul.

See a difference there??

Much of what passes for church music today are actually spiritual songs, which are not bad, but the very nature of that kind of song is one which is a personal act of worship and praise to God rather than a sacred or corporate worship song done by a group in praise of God.

Let me see if I can illustrate.

I'm old, so my idea of contemporary music is very out of date, ok,

Maranatha used to do a praise song which was a direct quote of Psalm 19, it was a wonderful way of learning Scripture, while teaching spiritual truth, usually sung with a guitar accompanying. Perfect for around a campfire or at a Bible camp session for a group of kids,

"A Mighty Fortress" by Martin Luther is a classic hymn, it is intended to be sung in corporate worship with a leader and either organ or piano accompaniment. It is a consummate example of what a hymn is supposed to be. The focus of the song is our God and His attributes. One can not sing this song and focus on self, because "on earth is not his equal".

Now, pick your own example here, but I will use Petra's "Judas Kiss", remember I'm old. This song has spiritual value, it reminds the listener of the cost that Jesus Christ paid for our sins, not only that, it reminds us that our sinful behavior in the present is offensive to Jesus Christ in the same way that He was rejected and abused by those around Him at the time He walked this earth.

But, Judas Kiss would never be appropriate for corporate worship. because it's loud, it's very personal and it would be nearly impossible for a large group of people to sing.

Psalm 19 is very worshipful, quiet and lends itself to contemplation and introspection, while teaching spiritual truth, and works well for corporate worship, but may be limited by the setting as it is generally done from memory,

Of the three songs A Mighty Fortress is most clearly a hymn for corporate worship.

Maybe your worship leaders are confusing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs??

[15. Texas Craig said the following at 6:42 PM on Feb 16:]

15

I think it is all a matter of perspective. What seems "me" centered can also be seen as us taking ownership over things instead of making them a generic "us." I would say that culturally, people now often use "we" when they don't really mean it, but are instead trying to criticize others but want to appear pious, so they include themselves in it.

To me, the use of "I" is often intended to take ownership of the idea. I am a sinner. I need a savior. I am a wretched man. It is often not in any way self-exalting. With that in mind, let's look at the lyrics to the Tomlin song you mentioned:

Light of the world
You stepped down into darkness.
Opened my eyes, let me see.
Beauty that made this heart adore You
Hope of a life spent with You

(Pretty good theology there)

Here I am to worship,
Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely
Altogether worthy,
Altogether wonderful to me

(I think this is right. I cannot speak for my neighbor, who may not be worshiping at all to the song, but rather may be thinking about how it is not good theology or is too me-centered. Thus, I can only accurately speak the words for my own heart, thus I would not want to say "we" because I cannot speak for my neighbors) :-)

King of all days
oh, so highly exalted
Glorious in heaven above
Humbly You came
To the earth You created
All for love's sake became poor

(seems like good theology to me)

I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost

(To me, this is an acknowledgment of how great God's sacrifice was for us, and how we will never be able to really comprehend it fully, in our finite sinful state)

So, it all looks good to me. And, not to seem snooty, but given the very fact that some of these songs may bother you, that demonstrates the importance of singing them from a personal perspective, rather than a corporate - because the corporate body may not share the worshiper's heart and may not actually be sharing the thoughts expressed by the words.

Just a different viewpoint (like I always try to bring....) :-)

[16. kb said the following at 7:06 PM on Feb 16:]

16

Why didn't you quote the entire song, Motte? I'll agree, the refrain and bridge are extremely "me-centered," but the verses reference a number of theological concepts.

But this particular song isn't really the point. A lot of the psalms sound pretty "me-centered." Check out Psalm 13, Psalm 22, Psalm 26, Psalm 31, Psalm 35...I could go on and on. While all of these Psalms contain a great deal of theological content, they focus a great deal on the speaker. The Psalms (Israel's songbook) are full of "me's".

I'm not saying at all that all of our corporate music should be all about me, all the time. In fact, I totally agree with you that our corporate music is far too me-centered, rather than God-centered or corporate. But it seems that Scriptures give us a very generous line for expressing our own personal response to God's character and work, even in the corporate setting.

[17. Craig M. said the following at 8:02 PM on Feb 16:]

17

Just silly. Standing reverently but not singing a single given song is sin? Ridiculous. And what a cover for bad writers and shallow services.

[18. Cassandra said the following at 8:03 PM on Feb 16:]

18

That sounds a lot like a Catholic criticism of Protestant worship, for what it's worth. A few years ago I edited a liturgy magazine for a Catholic publishing house and I specifically remember an author criticizing the Protestant "me and Jesus" mentality in worship music. As a Protestant I bristled at that criticism. I don't have the access to articles and Catechism that I used to at my old job, but there is a Catholic distinctive whereby the community and the liturgy is the recipient and the vehicle of salvation, and the focus is away from the individual response to the call of Christ. So I think the Protestants shifted towards the "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" and rightly so.

I don't like worship songs where "I" or "me" is the object of the song. The subject of the song, however, is fine with me.

I refrain from joining in songs sometimes because I don't like them and don't feel worshipful singing them and I don't think that's a sin. I think that's an awfully "religious" stance.

[19. Annabelle said the following at 8:09 PM on Feb 16:]

19

I don't know if this is going to sound silly, but I always dislike singing the parts of songs that I consider untrue ... such as singing as loud as I possibly can that I (or we) am bowing down, or that I'm on my knees, or that my hands are up high, or other such things. It just seems so odd. Some songs convey the feeling that this bowing or kneeling is figurative or with the spirit. But some seem to me to be saying that we should be literally bowing down. And no one ever does. I just keep my mouth shut at those times.

I also think it's incredibly strange to sing an entire song that is from God to us. While I love meditating on God's promises to us, I feel weird singing to God what God says instead of singing to God how I love him, how thankful I am, how unbelievable He is, etc.

Not sure if these thoughts made much sense.

[20. Chin Wee said the following at 8:09 PM on Feb 16:]

20

Here I Am to Worship is by Tim Hughes, not Chris Tomlin, although he did cover the song.

[21. Ken said the following at 8:11 PM on Feb 16:]

21

I have to admit that I'm confused why everybody keeps complaining about the praise songs with "I" in them. Have you ever read the words to "In the Garden"? That's basically a "Jesus and me hanging out together" song from 1912! There's nothing about the blood, or the cross, or salvation in it. And yet, nobody ever complains about that one. Looking at one of my hymnals, I see: I Have Decided to Follow Jesus, I Know Whom I Have Believed, I Love to Tell the Story, I Must Tell Jesus, I Need Thee Every Hour, I Shall Know Him, I Shall Not Be Moved, I Sing the Mighty Power of God, I Surrender All, I Will Sing the Wondrous Story, and a whole bunch of others. I really think nothing has changed.

[22. Laura said the following at 8:13 PM on Feb 16:]

22

Good stuff, Motte.

Too many people get really snotty and nasty about modern worship music -- painting it all with the same brush, as if it's ALL that "me, me, me" nonsense and there's nothing of theological value available. And then too many people are just plain undiscerning about the kind of music that they sing -- as if having the word "Jesus" in a song makes it acceptable for corporate worship even if it's more "Jesus is my boyfriend" than "Jesus is sufficient."

But I think there's a third way. Seek out beautiful, theologically rich music that reflects ALL the truth of Scripture. Develop a "hymnal" for your own church that isn't based on the hippest Christian pop but on unchanging truth. Sing songs that "hit home" for your congregation. Encourage the songwriters in your church to write excellent, Biblical songs. Take advantage of historical songwriters like the Wesleys, Isaac Watts, and others, as well as modern hymnists like Keith and Kristyn Getty and Stuart Townend. And remember that we're commanded to sing TO each other as encouragement, as well as TO God in praise.

My two cents!

[23. Ryan said the following at 8:58 PM on Feb 16:]

23

Hmmm... I agree wholeheartedly, yet I don't think you go far enough, Mott.

With all due respect, do you not think that self-centered songs about our experience with God is founded moer on sentimentality than real, gritty, hardcore faith-based-on-facts?

In other words, are not self-centered songs in and of themselves doctrinally incorrect?

I believe they are...

"Worship leaders" these days and songwriters are not theologians or pastors as they were in generations past. That lack has left us with an abundance of songs that are better kept at the bottom of the barrel than sung aloud.

[24. Claire said the following at 9:34 PM on Feb 16:]

24

Interesting--I've never really noticed the I/we thing. Sometimes I don't bother singing a line or two if the lyrics just seem like filler: "sing with me," "it's rising up all around/it's the anthem of the Lord's renown," "we're singing," etc. Maybe those are meaningful to some people, but seriously ... we're singing about singing? It's like those birthday cards that, instead of being about the birthday, are all about the card ("I was going to get you XYZ, but I decided to get you this card instead.") :)

Lately I've been listening to a lot of Sovereign Grace Music's worship music, which I've found to have lyrics that actually mean something, and really solid theology to boot.

[25. Dan said the following at 11:49 PM on Feb 16:]

25

This is such a recurring and frustrating topic, one that is important to talk through. While I do believe there is wisdom in submitting to our leaders so we can join together in praise and adoration of our God, we need to evaluate what we sing so we can communicate our thoughts, if appropriate. I'm currently working on a large scale worship night, and it has got me thinking quite a bit about this mystical feeling we pursue so much in worship- as if we worship God so WE can get something out of it. That phrase sounds so ridiculous when said out loud. I know that worship music can really help us build proper beliefs about God and who He is, and in that sense, does serve us a little, but this has really convicted me of my song selection and even how I lead the people who attend. I've been a lot more focused on songs that are doctrinally and theologically sound and which turn our eyes in praise and adoration of God both through the words we sing and even the effort we put forth to sing them.

[26. Larissa said the following at 12:46 AM on Feb 17:]

26

I understand what you mean about songs having too much I's and Me's. But do we not worship Him not just for who he is, but also for who he is to us personally? And to me, it makes sense for a song to contain pronouns to show this relationship.

[27. Jon from the UK said the following at 2:10 AM on Feb 17:]

27

Actually Tim Hughes wrote the song "Light of the world" , and not Chris Tomlin.

Part of the challenge is that there are a plethora of song writers at the moment with different levels of spiritual insight, maturity and theology. This topic has been addressed in several worship workshops / conferences that I have attended in the UK. Be of good cheer, song writers will get there eventually ...

[28. Harry said the following at 2:48 AM on Feb 17:]

28

So ar eu saying songs with I's are not to be sung...dat Here I Am To Worship is wrong...please I need 2 kno...ASAP

[29. Charity said the following at 5:18 AM on Feb 17:]

29

Aren't there a lot of Psalms (which have been hymns of corporate worship for many millenniums) that are full of 'I's,' too?

For example:

"I will praise the Lord as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being." Psalm 146:2

"Then I will go to the altar of God,
to God my exceeding joy,
and I will praise you with the lyre,
O God, my God." Psalm 43:4

"In my distress I called upon the Lord; to my God I cried for help.
From his temple he heard my voice,
and my cry to him reached his ears."
Psalm 18:6

There are so many Psalms that focus on worship based on what the Lord has done for the individual. This is just a tiny sampling of the way that individual reflection and worship was fused with corporate worship. I don't believe that the "I's" should have it all, but I do think that a healthy balance of "I" and "we" reflects the balanced scriptural pattern for corporate praise.

[30. S said the following at 5:20 AM on Feb 17:]

30

Our worship leader points out that when we sing the "I" or "me" songs, that it is an opportunity for the individual to sing TO God. I really don't see any controversy here.

[31. Susan said the following at 6:02 AM on Feb 17:]

31

My preference definitely leans towards songs that are rich in theology. Writing lyrics that speak of God’s truth and with a melody that is suitable for corporate worship is not an easy task, but I am grateful for the songwriters that are laboring for the church in this area.

Also, I remind myself to not measure a person’s walk with the Lord based on their music tastes.

[32. Bria said the following at 6:17 AM on Feb 17:]

32

Motte, I empathize with your and Tony's discomfort with some contemporary songs. However, I don't worry about the songs nearly so much as I did before I read what C. S. Lewis had to say about most hymns being tasteless and culturally inferior--he was referring to the old, solid, doctrinal ones we know and love. Lewis was confessing his distaste for his own snobbery, realizing that the "char woman" singing her heart out next to him was truly worshiping God, while he was withholding worship because he felt the songs were beneath his understanding of aesthetics and, to an extent, theology. Ouch. I was convicted, too.

I think your pastor has a good handle on the issue. If every person refused to sing every song he disliked in church, claiming that the song was too individualistic, where would we be? The church would be fragmented by individuals individuating in order to protest what they viewed as an overly individualistic song....

[33. Dan Gill said the following at 6:31 AM on Feb 17:]

33

A couple things:

1. The song in question is not individualistic, even though "I", "my", and "me" are used. The song is about God. It is saying that the author and singer are here to worship God, and that God is wonderful, lovely, and worthy, and that the author and singer cannot comprehend what it took to see Jesus on the cross become our the author and singer's sin. It's about God.

2. So, I may be sinning if I don't want to sing a rap song, or country song, or operatic song? That's a bit much. Taste is personal. It's not sin to like or dislike a style. To force others to sing a song they dislike, or to force them not to sing a song they do like--that would be sin.

[34. Michelle (in the UK) said the following at 6:40 AM on Feb 17:]

34

This is such a frustration to me as well. I'm part of a church who are renowned for their music and sometimes there are lyrics, in particular, even just parts of lyrics which I do not like. I find them sometimes cheesy. What I try to remember is that if they're doctrinally correct then why shouldn't I sing it? I may not enjoy certain aspects of the song but I do know that the song as a whole brings glory to God and the Message of Christ.

[35. Alison said the following at 7:28 AM on Feb 17:]

35

Have you ever thought to have an open discussion on worship with Matt Redman or Chris Tomlin on worship?

[36. Rachel said the following at 7:30 AM on Feb 17:]

36

I'm not being argumentative, I really want to know: It's about a PERSONAL relationship with Christ, isn't it? So why are songs like "Here I am to worship..." so controversial? My spirit praises God in total surrender just the same as during Amazing Grace... and I am touched when I look around during such a song and see many faces uplifted, many hands raised in similar surrender and praise, and I feel community and fellowship. I imagine the halls of Heaven when we'll be surrounded by our brothers and sisters in the presence of God. Is it less the song and more the personal attitude here? I mean, put that song in a congregation that is very service- and mission- oriented, that emphasizes community... and do you still have a problem with the song?

[37. Tamara said the following at 9:14 AM on Feb 17:]

37

Sigh. As half of the planning team charged with starting a new "Modern" worship service in our church, I can relate to your frustration. All of us in charge of the service have a deep passion to find songs with doctrinal depth that are appropriate for corporate worship and also have a musical style that speaks to the demographic we've been asked to target. Yet that is SO HARD. Don't lay too much blame on your worship team or pastor until you've tried to find the type of songs you're talking about.

I'd ask (beg, plead) that we all PRAY that God will gift members of His body to start writing these songs so we can all sing them.

[38. LouiseinPA said the following at 9:23 AM on Feb 17:]

38

I'm sure there are some lousy worship songs. But some hymns are just as me centered. What about Be Thou MY Vision or Amazing Grace? Both us the I or My and are classic hymns. Also, many of the Psalms use the first person....

[39. Leah W said the following at 9:37 AM on Feb 17:]

39

I think it all goes back to Ecclesiastes, where "the Preacher" talks about "To everything there is a season..." That includes praise & worship. As the daughter of a P&W leader I've not only "sang along" but sang on a praise & worship team. You can't judge an entire worship service on one song. (Light of the World is one of the first worship songs my oldest niece learned to sing by herself, so it holds a rather special place in my heart.:D) However if the whole of the worship "theme" is "Me, ME and More MEEEEE!" than, yes, your worship leader might have lost focus. But for the most part, the songs mentioned have been less about "only 'me and Jesus'" (I song I actually chuckle at when I hear it on the radio) and more about getting into the right "heart position" to worship. (some people will take the "bow down" literally, while some simply bow down their will to His Will.) I've seen my mom (& other worship leaders) use songs like Tim Hughes' "Light of the World" to turn a person's focus *from* themselves to *Christ*! Who (as I recall) is really the main focus of the song. (Thanks for so many pointing out the verses' messages above. :D)

I don't think you should *have* to sing along with song lyrics you don't agree with--even if there's nothing theologically "wrong" with them; because some of those could just be left up to personal taste. (now if you're not singing because "I don't wanna sing this song today!!" -- picture a pouty child. Then that's borderline rebellion, a *big* no-no!!!)
But I have songs I don't like to sing the lyrics of, because I don't agree with what they say, or simply can't relate because I haven't been where the song writer is coming from! I heard of a Christian artist who sd he would never sing lyrics about "seeing God face to face" because in the Old Testament God sd "no one can look on Me and live" to Moses. I, personally, don't agree, but that's called a difference of opinion and *that's* what makes not only our corporate worship, but also our individual worship, so incredibly special to the One Who formed us, shaped us, and planted individual worship tastes in us while we were still in our mother's wombs!
Worship is personal! I'm *never* going to worship the exact same way as my mother, even though she and I share oodles of DNA (and more personality traits than I will ever admit :D). But that's what makes it special to God. That's what makes it unique. That's why I think when you find a song you agree with, belt it out! Cuz you never know if your neighbor doesn't agree with the message that is speaking and ministering so deeply to *your* soul! :D

I might come into the presence of the King of Kings with a group, but when I bow before His throne, I'm not going to care what "we" are doing! I'm going to care what *He* wants from me. And if He wants me to tell Him that "I" am here to worship Him, or if He wants me to tell Him how "wonderful, beautiful, glorious, matchless in every way" He is, then I'll do that! (I figure He knows what He needs more than I do.)

P.S. Ken 21 - I totally agree. I grew up in churches that used not only "modern worship" but hymns as well, and they can be as equally "self-centered". The "I" theme runs deep in the human psyche so it would stand to reason that it would be predominate in every aspect of our existence. Humans are humans are humans! Or as stated in another wise saying by the Preacher "there is nothing new under the sun." :D
(hope this isn't too long for only a second post.) :D

[40. Laura said the following at 9:44 AM on Feb 17:]

40

Rachel, you said: "It's about a PERSONAL relationship with Christ, isn't it?"

Yes and no.

Yes, God calls each person. Yes, the death of Christ is applied to each Christian. But we are also joined to Christ. We are NEVER saved as "lone wolf" Christians, but rather we are saved INTO a community of faith -- the body of Christ throughout all generations. So salvation is both personal and corporate, and I think the music in our churches should represent both aspects!

My problem with "Here I am to worship" isn't the "I/me" part of it (as many other commenters have said, the Psalms frequently contain those words, as do many, many theologically rich hymns), but the fact that it's woefully overdone!

I think, as I mentioned before, that our music needs to find a balance. It should engage the mind AND the heart. It should celebrate the corporate life of God's people AND give each Christian the language to praise God for what he has done for ME! It should be directed horizontally (to one another) AND vertically (to the Lord). It should teach truth AND affect our emotions. It should emphasize God's justice AND his mercy, his law AND his grace!

This is a great example of why it pays to be intentional about developing a "canon" of songs in our churches.

[41. Jorden said the following at 10:19 AM on Feb 17:]

41

I agree with Annabelle(#19) about bowing down or about being on my knees. I always feel like if that's what I'm going to sing then that's what we should be doing, but many of the songs move too fast so it's impractical to do them.

I really like Bria's(#32) comment about the C.S. Lewis quote. In my Youth group(I'm a senior in HS)several of the kids don't focus that well during worship so sometimes they can be distracting(not as bad as it used to be though), so my tendency is to block out everyone around me and sing to God; so many times the "me-centric" songs make sense in those cases because I'm singing personally to God. But I do get your point that we are singing as a congregation and the music is supposed to be pointing to God. Our main worship services use a mixing of traditional hymns and CCM music. I enjoy the song selection most of the time, because we get a mix of some more modern stuff(including some of the "me-centric" songs) but we also get some of the older hymns with good theological content. I think it's a good trade off so we have a little of each to sing.

[42. LouiseinPA said the following at 10:19 AM on Feb 17:]

42

Tamara (#37)-There are actually a number of contemporary Catholic songwriters that have created songs directly from Bible verses. None of them are popular in the mass media but have contemporary songs with more depth. David haas, marty Haugen (sp?) are just two that I know of.

[43. Jonathon said the following at 10:52 AM on Feb 17:]

43

Just gonna throw this out there, I'm pretty sure it's not a sin to not sing. In reality I think God cares more about the state of our hearts than the words coming out our mouths.

Maybe this parable (from Matthew 21) can be applied to more than just worship music, but I think the idea behind it applies to what we're talking about here:

28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.

31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
"The first," they answered.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Overall I think the point is to worship God; the rest is really just unimportant details, and I'm not going to worry aobut them.

[44. Jonathon said the following at 10:54 AM on Feb 17:]

44

Bria #32 - wow, good point.

[45. Matt from DC said the following at 11:15 AM on Feb 17:]

45

Who says that you have to sing the same words that are in your hymnal or on are being projected on the big screen?

I often sing different words to certain songs. For example, in "Here I am to Worship" I will sometimes replace "my sin" with "Your Son". I can't help but sing the extra verse (sometimes silently) in Amazing Grace... "When we've been here ten thousand years"... even though John Newton didn't write it. Also I am fond of replacing "I" with "we" and "my" with "our" when I'm at church. One of the core concepts regarding worship is that we are expressing praise as an offering to the Lord. Let us always do this with consideration and never follow the crowd when your heart is not in it.

Farmer Tom #14,

Thank you for that edifying post. I am a fan of spiritual songs and hymns, but don't hear many psalms. It looks like I'm going to have to stop by Family Christian Bookstore sometime soon to make a CD purchase.

[46. Ambrosia said the following at 11:37 AM on Feb 17:]

46

Ok Motte... I am so confused!
What exactly is "me centered worship" and why is it supposedly wrong. We tell people everyday " Leave religion for a personal individualistic relationship with God" but how can we have this without a one on one walk with God that may be manifested in songs of what God has done for us personally.
Check out Psalms, especially when David was in the wilderness, although he spoke greatly of God's mercy, goodness, judgement...etc; he also spoke of how "HE" felt in regards to God. Unless I am understanding this wrongly, how can we refuse to sing "me centered" songs but can activlely pray "me centered prayers" asking for God's help, protection, forgiveness etc.
Now I will be the first to say content is so important but looking at "here I am to worship", I can not help but see a singer speaking of his desire to worship God, his love for God and his enduring expectation to see his savior face to face one day.

[47. Christina (in green) said the following at 11:55 AM on Feb 17:]

47

A lot of you guys who claim that you like theologically rich music or doctrinally correct music, et al...

And then going on about classic hymns...

You make this blanket statement as if there are no new songs coming out that are theologically rich or doctrinally correct.

No, not a fan of the "Jesus is my boyfriend" or the EXCESSIVE "I/me" music - but how many of you guys pay attention to the words in any worship song or hymn?

The last time I sang a hymn, I wasn't paying that close attention to the lyrics cuz I was too busy trying to stumble over the odd and difficult melody line with an organist who clearly didn't practice and a choir who didn't know it well, either. And I read music fairly well and it was still difficult.

Crown Him with Many Crowns...I love that hymn. Same with Holy, Holy, Holy...and Lift High the Cross...

Lyrics though? I can't really remember them all - just some tidbits here and there - "God in three persons, blessed trinity" is my favorite line in Holy, Holy, Holy.

Did you know that the "modern" contemporary worship song "God of Wonders" actually uses Holy, Holy, Holy as its under-refrain? The entire song is structured both melodically and lyrically around that Hymn.

But Farmer Tom would consider it inferior to a hymn because it is not a...HYMN.

Some people are using "Amazing Grace" as a counter-example of "me-centered" music. Yes, it IS a hymn. I'm kinda curious what Farmer Tom and all the others would say if they actually paid attention to the lyrics involved in that hymn that is seemingly acceptable for corporate worship:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost
but now I'm found
Was blind but now I see.

There are 5 more verses from an individual perspective. It only becomes corporate in the last verse.

Blessed Redeemer, Jesus is Mine is another hymn from an individualistic pov.
******************
I THINK that the main issue that we should have here is the lack of balance.

It isn't all about hymns. It isn't all about spiritual music. it isn't all about individualistic vs corporate. Its about a balance.

Most churches aren't paying attention to that balance. They pick songs that ARE doctrinally or theologically correct and rich (Tim Hughes "Here I am to Worship"). But they don't supplement the "I/Me" music with the "we" music. They don't take the best of hymns and contemporary music - they choose one type and stick with it.

To much of an emphasis on ME leads to an individualistic mindset - which is wrong and is WAY to prevalent in the church. Christianity is as much about community as it is a personal relationship with Christ. Why do you think the two commandments Christ laid out for us are first to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul and second to love your neighbor as yourself?

To much emphasis on WE leads to a lack of understanding in our own personal relationship with Christ.
*******************

The sin question - I understand praise and worship the same way I understand Communion in a liturgical church. The point of both is to be in communion with God. Whether that is individually or corporately or a combination of both - you are communing with God.

The Lutheran Church that is part of the WELS organization has a very strict policy about allowing non-members of the WELS church to take communion (This is different from the Catholic church where you must be BAPTIZED catholic to receive). The reason for it is due to some verses in 1 Cor 11:27-29.

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

I'd be more wont to believe that if you don't know or don't agree with what you are saying to God in song or otherwise, I think you'd best keep your mouth shut =p

Not the other way around.

[48. Lizzie said the following at 11:59 AM on Feb 17:]

48

Harry (#28):

I don't think anyone's saying that, no. As other people have mentioned above me, the Psalms are often extremely personal and have a lot of I's in them. I think often what's most important is that you're worshiping with your whole heart.

[49. Sam said the following at 12:11 PM on Feb 17:]

49

What about those of us who choose not to sing to commune more deeply with God during certain songs? I know for me that often if it's a particularly stirring song that I really want to focus on, I'll just bow my head and close my eyes and meditate on the song and speak to God.

[50. Some Dude said the following at 12:47 PM on Feb 17:]

50

Does this mean I have to sing Shine Jesus Shine?

[51. Kari said the following at 2:44 PM on Feb 17:]

51

I just am sad that my church doesn't include even the more well-known of the really old hymns. Can't we have some "Rock of Ages", or some "Great is Thy Faithfulness"? Or how about a simple round of "Up from the Grave He Arose" or A Mighty Fortress is Our God" or "Be Thou my Vision"???? I was raised in conservative presbyterian and baptist churches, and while I love many modern songs, I REALLY miss the "oldies" of the faith!

[52. Elizabeth said the following at 3:12 PM on Feb 17:]

52

I also think that if a song has lyrics about bowing or lifting hands or whatever, it's ridiculous to sing them and not do them. Sometimes I'll do whatever it is, and sometimes I'll keep my mouth shut; which choice I make does depend a lot on the style of music (i.e. Do the motions in the lyrics seem appropriate in the context of the song? In the context of the service?).

I can't make myself sing the same line 12 or 15 times straight. By then, I really don't mean it, no matter how good the line is. I'll sing it five or six times and then shut up (though I'm probably wondering when it'll be over after three times). You know it's bad when the worship leader has to yell "Here we go!" to signal that it's finally time to move on to the next part of the song....

Some modern songs are good, and some are bad (theologically, musically, or grammatically, and all are worth consideration; grammar really can change the meaning or connotation, and bad music is a distraction), and the same goes for the older hymns. The difference is that time has been allowed to sift the older songs; there's probably something worth singing in a song that continues to be used after generations. The worst will eventually be forgotten, and the best will be passed on. I do worry, though, that the new songs are replaced too frequently. Just when you start to learn a good song well enough to sing it without gluing your eyes to the projector, it's replaced in usage by one that's either no good or maybe good but unfamiliar, and then you don't hear the first one any more.

Personally, I generally prefer hymns, but that is partly because I don't have a magically musical ear and can sing much more confidently if I can see the notes as well as hear them. Also, if everybody has his own hymnal, anybody who doesn't turn the page in time is only confusing himself.... When the projector is on the wrong screen, everybody's confused! :)

[53. Vanessa said the following at 4:14 PM on Feb 17:]

53

#24 - "It's the rising up all around; it's the anthem of the Lord's renown" is one of my FAVORITE couplets from a worship song! It leads into "Holy is the Lord God Almighty. The earth is filled with His Glory."

While it may be "lofty language" it is a literary gem. When we sing that song in our young adult worship service, all of us who actually know what it literally means are lifting our hands in praise. It means that all over the place, people are lifting up their voices to sing of how wonderful our God is...and then it elaborates with "Holy is the Lord God Almighty."

Maybe if you don't understand what the word "anthem" or the word "renown" mean, it can seem like a filler to you.

When I was a little kid, we used to sing a song based on scripture that had a line "we are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation" and I always sang it "we are a FROZEN generation" instead. Oops. Or when my mom had to respond to my insistent tugging on her sleeve when I asked her what a "diadem" was during worship ("Bring forth the royal diadem and crown Him Lord of all.") I guess I just needed someone to explain to me what it meant, and then I "got" it.

[54. farmer Tom said the following at 4:27 PM on Feb 17:]

54

47. Christina (in green),

Just one question for you,

using standard English grammar, please tell me what the subject of "Amazing Grace" is????

Do you have any questions?

[55. Al said the following at 4:45 PM on Feb 17:]

55

I think it's possible to sing songs with a lot of 'I' content and yet for them to not be primarily about us. In fact, I think it may sometimes be necessary to incorporate 'I' songs to glorify God more fully-- like a good Reformed preacher says, God is most glorified when we are (and I am) most satisfied in Him.

I think some songs that might fuel self-fixation can actually be redeemed by placing them in a set with songs that emphasize praise as a community along with those that exalt God's goodness with no reference to ourselves. This allows us to personally be about His goodness because of the ways His goodness is and has been for us, even as we affirm His objective goodness apart from who we are.

[56. hxcjf said the following at 5:45 PM on Feb 17:]

56

Ever read the Psalms?

Praise: How great God is.
Worship: Our response to him.

We sing both praise and worship. Just because its old doesn't mean its right and vice versa.

[57. Janelle said the following at 8:00 PM on Feb 17:]

57

Ryan (23), I can't agree that there are no theologians among today's songwriters and worship leaders. Vicky Beeching, for example has a theology degree from Oxford, and she also writes some of the best worship music I've heard in a long time.

And in the theology class I'm currently taking at a seminary, there are several people who are working as worship leaders in their churches right now. I don't know whether or not they can write good songs, but it's not because they haven't got good theological training!

[58. Leah said the following at 4:19 AM on Feb 18:]

58

BDB (1) - I don't think this post was about the attitude of songs (like "lovey-dovey feelings" VS "serious sacrifice on the cross"). I think it's more talking about songs which (legitimately) talk about us as individuals rather than us as a group.

In regards to the original post: I agree. If a person says "we shouldn't sing songs that refer to us as individuals in church", well where else are we going to? Sure, some people sing praise songs in their homes, but not a lot, not routinely. Some churches encourage people to pray silently during a prayer time- that's individual prayer in a corporate setting. We shouldn't be acting like us as individuals are the centre of the universe, but I don't think that's what these songs are doing.

Leah W - bizarre! My maiden surname began with W!

[59. Tehilah said the following at 7:47 AM on Feb 18:]

59

Farmer Tom - excellent post. I love these verses and enjoyed the commentary.

My name is the Hebrew word for Psalm, And since I speak modern Hebrew,
I thought perhaps I can presumptuously add a bit to your definition.

The word Psalm (Tehila, singular of Tehilim) in Hebrew has the added connotation of "singing of the fame" or "glorifying" someone. The word contains in it the root form of Hilah, which is also aura - or glory.

Looking over the Psalms, I find that in every one of them there is at least one strong verse extolling the virtue of God. Even if the rest of the song is a long grumble about David's enemies :-)

Therefore when I hear the term "sing Psalms" I generally include all songs that speak of God's awesome power, holiness, glory, etc.

Perhaps for this reason I've struggled, like Motte, with what I've called (in the past) "junk worship". There are songs I have a hard time singing because I cannot do so with integrity (because they focus on man's love and faithfulness, which are fickle), then there are songs I have a hard time singing because I don't find them theologically sound. Then there are those songs I just don't like for musical reasons. Recently I felt a check in my spirit about using the above term to describe these songs - for some, they are honest expressions of worship. So now, I just stand silent when we sing them.

God says many times in His word that He is not interested in lip service, but in a heart that worships Him in spirit and in truth. For this reason I side with Motte and say "stand silent, better to be quiet than to sing untruth". But often, in my heart, I become critical in the midst of worship and lose my focus on the Lord. So next time this happens, I will strive to remember Farmer Tom's "spiritual songs" and quietly refocus on the Lord as I wait for a song I can sing in spirit AND in truth.

I would also suggest that any of you who find problematic theology in songs simply approach the worship leader and speak to them respectfully about it. Our Worship Leader is lovely and humble and would probably phase out songs that are Biblically unsound.

The important thing is that God be praised.

[60. Christina (in green) said the following at 7:53 AM on Feb 18:]

60

Farmer Tom,

I know what the subject of Amazing Grace is.

But the argument was about individualized songs being sung in corporate worship.

If that's not the entire gist of what your getting at, then please elaborate further.

I just think its rather narrow minded to think that the only GOOD stuff that has ever been written is the OLD stuff - as if there's not chance that someone nowadays could come up with a classic. Or that all the old stuff is theologically correct.

Its kinda like the assumption that the only theologians worthy of note are the ones who have been dead and buried for 100 years. As if God has suddenly shut his mouth and doesn't speak through his people anymore.

I'm not trying to make you a fan of modern worship music...i really honestly prefer a little of both in church music...I just think a little more discernment is in order than simply "old is best".

[61. Matt from DC said the following at 11:36 AM on Feb 18:]

61

Christina (in green),

What is going on with you? You are falsely representing what Farmer Tom has been saying. I suggest you calm down and reread what he wrote. The entire gist of what Farmer Tom was getting at was his closing sentence: "Maybe your worship leaders are confusing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs??" He provided Biblical context about the topic, definitions for the terms, and some personal examples to explain himself.

[62. farmer Tom said the following at 11:41 AM on Feb 18:]

62

60. Christina (in green),

I fully admit my inadequacy as a writer to convey my point, I ain't so good at it.

But, where did I say old is better?

Either I'm even worse at reading than I am at writing but I've reread the post several times, and I can not find it in there.

My point was simply that there are more than one kind of music which are useful to the spiritual life of a believer. Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs.

But, some of them are far more useful for corporate worship, (the body of believers worshiping together), than others. Some spiritual songs simply have no place in corporate worship. It is both an abuse of the believer, by forcing him/her to sing a song whose style is uncomfortable or unfamiliar to them, and it dishonors the term worship to make the participants sing or do something which makes them uncomfortable.

How can one have the attitude of worship while at the same time being uncomfortable with the music they are singing??

Old is not better. One of the best songs in the last ten years is Philip, Craig and Deans, "Your Grace Still Amazes Me"

That is an extremely powerful piece of music. Gives me goose bumps, but it is not appropriate for corporate worship because...frankly most of you are not capable of singing it and making it sound the way it should.

Why don't those who take on the role of music/worship leader learn to use the proper kind of Biblically based music for the proper role in worship, Psalms and Hymns for corporate worship, spiritual songs for personal worship and possibly entertainment?

[63. Tami said the following at 12:17 PM on Feb 18:]

63

Kari (51), I will sing with you!:

Up from the grave He arose,
With a mighty triumph o’er His foes,
He arose a Victor from the dark domain,
And He lives forever, with His saints to reign.
He arose! He arose!
Hallelujah! Christ arose!
--Robert Lowry, 1874

:)

[64. Jonathan said the following at 12:22 PM on Feb 18:]

64

Alright...this is a bit long, but it is a summation of my feelings on this topic. This has been debated for over a millenia, so really what we are discussing is nothing new.

First, I think the 'me' factor of songs is very easy to dismiss simply by examining several popular hymns and seeing whether 'me' focused songs really are a new animal. For instance, 'Amazing Grace': Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me; I once was blind, but now I see, was lost but now am found. First line has 3 stated 'me' pronouns with two implied. Other good hymns are 'In Christ Alone', 'At the Cross', 'Be Thou My Vision', 'Come Thou Fount', etc. etc. Usually when I bring this up I am met with a second argument along the lines of, 'well but the old hymns, while focusing on a personal relationship, still emphasized God and His glory instead of a wishy-washy friendship type love song. Besides, there's no meat in today's songs, just endless, brainless repetition.'

So that brings us to point #2...do today's worship songs almost exclusively focus on a 'Jesus is my boyfriend' style relationship? Certainly there are songs that fall under this category, where if an innocent bystander heard it they might just assume you're singing about your boyfriend or girlfriend rather than God. This is definitely a valid concern, but I would argue that there are many songs out there that do not fall into this category...in fact I would say that most that I have heard do not. Several examples would be, 'Holy is the Lord', 'Sing to the King', 'Blessed be Your Name', 'O Praise Him', 'Not to Us', 'Indescribable', 'How Great is Our God', 'Majesty', 'No One Like You', 'Can You Feel the Mountains Tremble', etc. etc. I could go on and on with this list but I think that serves to illustrate my point.

Regarding endless repetition, I cannot see how this is anything other than a personal preference. In Revelation 4:8-11 John records, "And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“ Holy, holy, holy,[f]
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “ You are worthy, O Lord,[g]
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist[h] and were created.”

So these folks up in heaven repeat these stanzas over and over again, yet somehow that is seen as a perfect form of worship to our God. Therefore, how can we sit down here on earth and exclaim that a song is not good because it is so repetitive? Now such a song might become extremely dull to me and you, but does that say more about us or the song?

It seems to me that the discussion between modern music and hymns really comes down to style preference (As has been the case for hundreds of years). There are plenty of modern songs being written in a hymn style now, and in addition many modern artists are also re-recording hymns set to a more current musical style. So it is not like hymns are being forgotten, nor can it truly be said that the music produced today is uniformly bad lyrically. And while many songs may focus on an individual relationship with God, is that really any different than what we see in scripture? In the Psalms David records mostly feeling about his relationship with God, Mary also sings about her own relationship with God...this is not a new idea, and it is very scriptural.

So if you do not like the style of modern worship music then fine, but just be open to the fact that some people may prefer it to the style of hymns, which can be difficult to understand at times because of the language they use. Everyone has preferences, the ultimate question is really what is in your heart? If the lyrics are sound theologically, then what is your position as you sing them? This is really and truly the heart of the matter.

[65. Mark said the following at 5:01 PM on Feb 18:]

65

I don't know if anyone has said this or not, but in the commands to sing in the NT, both are singing to each other, with hearts towards God. How about a service where we turn to those sitting next to us and look 'em in the eye while singing. awkward, but I sing to God all the time, and do not need the church for it. In fact, my CD's are better quality, so what is the point of singing together if we're not singing to each other. Anyone attend a corporate worship time where we are not looking at a hymnal, screen, or music leader, but looking at each other?

[66. Al said the following at 5:04 PM on Feb 18:]

66

For what it's worth, one commentor of the article quoted noted that the song that seemed to bug the author when sung in a congregational setting actually has really strong Reformed theology:

I am not skilled to understand
What God has willed, what God has planned
I only know at His right hand
Stands one who is my Savior

I take Him at His word and deed
Christ died to save me; this I read
And in my heart I find a need
Of Him to be my savior

That He would leave His place on high
And come for sinful man to die
You count it strange, so once did I
Before I knew my Savior

Sure the chorus is more simplistic, croony, and uses "me" a fair amount, but the focus and subject of glory is obviously Jesus, and the song works pretty well in our congregation.

I used to be overly into "me" songs, and as I understood the need to move away from self-fixated to God-fixated worship, I shifted a bit towards songs with minimal use of first-person pronouns. But I'm starting to see that songs with personal engagement has an extremely important place in praise and worship music-- and that they are best served alongside songs that facilitate self-abandoned praise as well as congregational praise. Sometimes it's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to the amount of "me's" and "I's" in a song, and count "I's Per Beat" versus "Jesus's Per Beat", but I think the essence of the issue is whether or not the I's and me's serve Christ's glory within the song and within the set.

[67. Ted Slater said the following at 5:06 PM on Feb 18:]

67

Mark (#65) -- EXCELLENT question, and EXCELLENT points. Colossians 3:16 is one of my favorites, and speaks directly to this:

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God."

Lots of people wonder what the purpose of singing in the church might be. And there it is, clearly and richly spelled out.

[68. Ted Slater said the following at 5:18 PM on Feb 18:]

68

Al (#66) -- It happens that the rich lyrical content for that song (the verses) was written in 1873 by Dora Greenwell. The "more simplistic, crooney" chorus was tacked on by CCM musician Aaron Shust, perhaps in an effort to make the song more palatable for modern tastes.

Yeah, I'm a bit cynical about much of today's lyric writing, most of which is vomited out of some mysterious random Christian cliche concatenation software.

Strange. When I google the song, all I see is "Words and Music by Aaron Shust." I don't see any credit given to the woman who wrote the meat of the song's lyrics.

[69. Al said the following at 6:59 PM on Feb 18:]

69

Ted, thanks. I had no idea the song was an update of an earlier composition. Apparently it was originally a poem. I do think the modern melody serves the verse pretty well, and the more simplistic, emotional refrain serves as a visceral response to heady truth. But I've been known to like hymm updates with modern choruses tacked on in general, like Passion/Chris Tomin's version of Take My Life.

[70. Texas Craig said the following at 9:04 PM on Feb 18:]

70

Ted:

I also dislike much of the really popular contemporary Christian music out there. But, at the same time, there is some great stuff out there now as well. Part of the problem is people have different tastes and personalities. Music is like other arts, such as poetry or paintings. Some people prefer something very literal and in your face, whereas others really are impacted by the subtle messages contained in the artwork. Take, for example, the David Crowder Band song "Stars." Here are the lyrics:

You should see the stars tonight
How they shimmer and shine so bright
Against the black they look so white
Coming down from such a height
To reach me now, reach me now

You should see the moon in flight
Cutting across the misty night
Softly dancing in sunshine
Reflections of this light
Reach me now, reach me now

How could such a thing
Shine its light on me
And make everything beautiful again

You should feel the sun in the spring
Coming out after a rain
Suddenly all is green
Sunshine on everything
I can feel it now, I feel You now

And how could such a thing
Shine its light on me
And make everything beautiful

You should hear the angels sing
All gathered around their King
More beautiful than you could dream
I've been quietly listening
You can hear them now, I hear them now

And how could such a King
Shine His light on me
And make everything beautiful
And I want to shine
I want to be light
I want to tell you it'll be alright
And I want to shine and I want to fly
Just to tell you now
It'll be alright, it'll be alright
It'll be alright.

Because I've got nothing of my own to give to you
But this light that shines on me shines on you
And makes everything beautiful, again.
It'll be alright, it'll be alright.

(Back to my comments) Some people will think this is just an empty song with no real theological import. But, I would strongly disagree. To me, the song presents a beautiful analogy of redemption. The song contrasts the moon and the sun. The sun is the source of light and gives life to things. The moon provides no life of its own, but can still provide light simply by reflecting the sunlight. In the same way, in ourselves, we can produce no light, nothing good. But, when we reflect the light of the Son in our lives, it can shine on those around us. We have nothing in ourselves to offer people, but the God that redeemed us can reach out and redeem others when we faithfully reflect His light by our life. That is an incredibly powerful and inspirational song to me.

Or, consider these lyrics from another David Crowder Band song, "Wholly Yours:"

I am full of earth
You are heaven’s worth
I am stained with dirt, prone to depravity
You are everything that is bright and clean
The antonym of me
You are divinity
But a certain sign of grace is this
From a broken earth flowers come up
Pushing through the dirt

You are holy, holy, holy
All heaven cries “Holy, holy God”
You are holy, holy, holy
I want to be holy like You are

You are everything that is bright and clean
And You’re covering me with Your majesty
And the truest sign of grace was this
From wounded hands redemption fell down
Liberating man

You are holy, holy, holy
All heaven cries “Holy, holy God”
You are holy, holy, holy
I want to be holy like You are

But the harder I try the more clearly can I feel
The depth of our fall and the weight of it all
And so this might could be the most impossible thing
Your grandness in me making me clean

Glory, hallelujah
Glory, glory, hallelujah
You are holy, holy, holy
All heaven cries “Holy, holy God”
You are holy, holy, holy
I want to be holy, holy

So here I am, all of me
Finally everything
Wholly, wholly, wholly
I am wholly, wholly, wholly
I am wholly, wholly, wholly Yours

I am wholly Yours
I am full of earth and dirt and You

(That is powerful stuff to me, and is theologicaly chock full of truth, but it is presented in a subtle way; the presentation doesn't make it any less significant, just because some people don't care for or simply don't get the subtlety in the message)

Anyway, that's my $.02 worth.

[71. Ken said the following at 9:49 PM on Feb 18:]

71

Ted (#68), it's Dorothy Greenwell, and it came right up for me.

[72. Rachael said the following at 10:21 PM on Feb 18:]

72

re: sun & moon analogy (comment 70)

-->People who like this analogy might enjoy "You are the Sun" sung by Sara groves...

[73. Ted Slater said the following at 10:43 PM on Feb 18:]

73

Ken (#71) -- not to be harsh or anything, but your "correction" is pedantic. The author of those lyrics is Dora Greenwell, who *also* went by the name Dorothy. My legal name is "Theodore," but everyone calls me "Ted."

When I google "aaron shust my savior my god," Dora's name rarely comes up associated with that song (only once, as second billing, on the first four pages of google results). In most cases Aaron Shust alone receives credit for the lyrics, and the comments all praise him for his excellent lyric-writing. It just strikes me as unfair that Shust gets credit and acclaim for lyrics he did not write. Maybe his label is to blame for not giving Dora the credit due her.

Maybe I don't understand your comment, Ken. Can you help me understand the tone and purpose of it?

[74. Ken said the following at 12:27 AM on Feb 19:]

74

I didn't mean anything hurtful. I wasn't familiar with that hymn, so I typed in the first line into Google. The first result was cyberhymnal.org, and the page about her gave Dorothy as her name, with Dora underneath. So then I typed her name into Google, and I got a whole bunch of sites mentioning her by name regarding the song. I guess I just looked it up differently than you did.

[75. Jo said the following at 12:30 AM on Feb 19:]

75

Mark 64:
"How about a service where we turn to those sitting next to us and look 'em in the eye while singing?"

Ooooh now that's a wonderful idea. How about some 'you' focused songs? Encouraging other believers about what Christ did/does for them... I wonder why we don't have any already... Maybe I'll write one. :P

[76. Matt from DC said the following at 7:29 AM on Feb 19:]

76

The idea of singing to others sounds interesting. However, it requires an even number of people for someone not to be left out. It also would be hindered by an odd numbered group sitting a short distance away from everyone else. In our church there is enough room sometimes that people spread out. I don't know what motivates people to sit in the back and away from everyone else, but this would throw off the pairing.

[77. Paul said the following at 7:54 AM on Feb 19:]

77

Is it worth pointing out that time has a habbit of filtering out stuff that is not particularly notable?

Over time, the useless products dissapear from our shops, the tasteless food dissapears from our cookbooks, the people who didn't acheive much dissapear from our history books, and the poorly written novels dissapear from our libraries.

Worship songs are no different. Isaac Watts wrote 697 hymns, do you know them all? 150 of Charles Wesley's hymns are recorded in our Methodist Hymn book in the UK - or in other words, over 5,000 of them were not considered to be worth including. In 100 years time, most of today's contemporary worship songs will have dissapeared, but some will be cherrished as classic hymns set to the music of of a past age.

I'm really struggling to understand Farmer Tom's concept of "Biblically based music". Surely Biblically based music would be written to be played on harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets, rather than pipe organs.

[78. farmer Tom said the following at 11:56 AM on Feb 19:]

78

77. Paul said,

I'm really struggling to understand Farmer Tom's concept of "Biblically based music". Surely Biblically based music would be written to be played on harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets, rather than pipe organs.

Don't have a lot of time now Paul, but in short, yes Biblically based music would include those things,

my point, was that some styles/types of music are more suited for corporate worship than others,

you understand the difference between lifting ones voice to God in praise, and jamming to "Judas Kiss" at full volume, don't you? I believe both are worthwhile in the spiritual life of a believer, but one is absolutely not a song conducive to corporate worship.

[79. Tami said the following at 12:35 PM on Feb 19:]

79

Jo (75), good point! And one hymn of exhortation popped into my head -- Fanny Crosby's "To God be the Glory." There's a verse that says,

Great things He has taught us, great things He has done,
And great our rejoicing through Jesus the Son;
But purer, and higher, and greater will be
Our wonder, our transport, when Jesus we see.

And the chorus could be seen as exhortative (word?), too:

Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
Let the earth hear His voice!
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
Let the people rejoice!
O come to the Father, through Jesus the Son,
And give Him the glory, great things He has done.

I'm beginning to really love this thread. Every time I visit, a wonderful hymn of praise comes to mind. :)

[80. Kevin said the following at 7:16 PM on Feb 21:]

80

I think it's ironic the verses to Tim Hughes' "Here I am to Worship" are taken from an old hymn. I heard him discuss this with Matt Redman in the extras on the "Facedown" DVD. He just added the chorus. I am sorry I can't recall the name of the hymn, as it was obsure.

[81. Chryl said the following at 10:53 AM on Feb 23:]

81

I especially love hymns and praise that has substance and is not just a few words repeated over and over again. This kind of repetition eventually loses me to frustration. After struggling with this for a time, I have finally found a way to honor God during these types of songs. As soon I perceive the repetition will be ongoing, I begin to praise the Lord silently using my own words. I believe this is the most God-honoring thing I can do at the time, and it puts my focus back on the One who is being praised.

[82. Jon Royal said the following at 8:25 AM on Feb 25:]

82

Motte,

I couldn't agree with you more. This is a frustration that I have had with the modern evangelical movement for a long time. That so many of the songs use the "I" instead of the "we". I have always believed that the Church is a body of people, we rise and fall as one community and as one people. Yet, it seems that some of the aspects of the modern evangelical movement in hopes of bringing new people to a life with Christ that we have shifted and transferred our worship to be so condusive to that lifestyle that going to church starts to reflect our modern consumerist culture more than it does the Body of Christ. And in a symbolic sense, our churches simply become malls and marketing centers.

Our culture is one of "I's and "mes" and never "wes" if our faith follows that path will eventually come to a point where it will mean nothing anymore. For "me" at least, that is my biggest discontent with the Church and my reasoning for looking for different, more communial modes of worship.

You hit the nail on the head Mottie.

Thanks,

Jon

[83. Jeremy said the following at 8:52 PM on Feb 26:]

83

So does this mean that you don't like older hymns that are lyrically individualistic, such as: "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like ME. I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see." Uh-oh! 1 ME and 2 Is in only 2 sentences.

[84. BDB said the following at 11:24 PM on Feb 26:]

84

I guess that combining comments 82 and 83 explains why Amazing Grace is playing on the local CCW station. An not any of the "we" Hymns...

[85. Pastor Eric said the following at 4:55 PM on Mar 20:]

85

How is not singing a sin? I guess it could be if you were not singing out of some sort of rebellion. Anyway, interesting reading. Thanks for sharing.

Blessings

[86. Kim said the following at 6:26 AM on Sep 10:]

86

I do understand your fear of the me me mentality but worship is when we humble ourselves before the Lord and worship Him for who He is with no agendas or needs just an intimate time of thanking Him for all He is. In order to truly enter into intimate relationship with Him it does become personal between He and I. Even though you are in corporate worship we still enter into His gates with thanksgiving and it is intimate. Praise songs use more of the we's than worship because we express joy in the Lord and we can dance together but true intimacy that Jesus calls us to is more intimate between He and I.