Making Abstinence Realistic by Heather Koerner on 02/19/2009 at 5:20 PM

On Monday, a friend and I were talking about the birds and the bees.

Obviously, both being mothers of two kids, we weren't in need of a whole lot of knowledge. Rather, we were talking about our girls and wondering aloud how to have an ongoing purity discussion with them and at what age certain information is appropriate.

"You know what I want to do?" I mused. "I want to emphasize sexual purity, but also give her some real strategies to make it happen."

My friend nodded her head. "Yeah, like what to do in certain situations and what situations just to stay clear of all together."

I thought about that conversation today when reading about Bristol Palin. Bristol first came under media scrutiny for her out of wedlock pregnancy. She is in the headlines again for an interview she gave with Greta Van Susteren of Fox News in which Bristol declared that abstinence was "not realistic at all." (You can read the context of her comment here).

Some are disappointed with Palin's comment. Others see it as further justification that abstinence cannot be expected.

But, as Dr. Albert Mohler writes today, Christians need to be less concerned about whether abstinence is realistic and more concerned about making abstinence realistic in our lives:

The real issue for Christian teenagers and their parents is not to debate whether sexual abstinence before marriage is realistic or not. The larger and more important issue is that sexual abstinence until marriage is the biblical expectation and command. Once this is realized, the responsibility for everyone concerned is to ensure that expectations and structures are in place so that abstinence is realistic.

The debate over whether abstinence is realistic or not misses the more important issue -- abstinence must be made realistic.

But what strategies are effective? What should a single person do to be intentional about their purity? One resource I've enjoyed is Randy Alcorn's The Purity Principle. In a chapter titled "Guidelines for Singles," Alcorn acknowledges that while Scripture warns against man-made rules, the Word does call us to live wisely, "exercising God-honoring common sense." He then goes on to share a list of guidelines he used with his own family.

But, more than the guidelines, I especially appreciate the beautiful and accurate picture Alcorn gives of why obedience to God's sexual standards is not just required, but glorious:

"Sex wasn't invented by Hollywood, Madonna, or some pervert in an Internet chat room. Sex was created by an infinitely holy God, wreathed in blinding light and glory, surrounded by radiant, holy angels. The goodness of sex stands or falls with the goodness of its Creator.

...Sex is the means by which children are conceived and marital intimacy is expressed. Both are very important to God. When sexual union takes place in its proper context, in a spirit of giving, the Creator smiles."

But we must also remember...

"Sex is incredibly powerful; it's able to do immense good ... or immense harm...The most magnificent gifts of God, taken outside their God-intended boundaries, become utterly ruinous. So it is with sex. Its potential for great good has a flip side -- potential for great evil.

As long as fire is contained in the fireplace, it keeps you warm. But if the fire is "set free," the house burns down.

I've walked through the smoldering ruins of people's lives devastated by immorality...I cannot forget such scenes imprinted on my soul.

In contrast, to embrace purity is to lay claim to a magnificent gift. Purity is incomparably beautiful...like the frangrance of a rose after a summer shower."

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Making Abstinence Realistic by Heather Koerner on 02/19/2009 at 5:20 PM

On Monday, a friend and I were talking about the birds and the bees.

Obviously, both being mothers of two kids, we weren't in need of a whole lot of knowledge. Rather, we were talking about our girls and wondering aloud how to have an ongoing purity discussion with them and at what age certain information is appropriate.

"You know what I want to do?" I mused. "I want to emphasize sexual purity, but also give her some real strategies to make it happen."

My friend nodded her head. "Yeah, like what to do in certain situations and what situations just to stay clear of all together."

I thought about that conversation today when reading about Bristol Palin. Bristol first came under media scrutiny for her out of wedlock pregnancy. She is in the headlines again for an interview she gave with Greta Van Susteren of Fox News in which Bristol declared that abstinence was "not realistic at all." (You can read the context of her comment here).

Some are disappointed with Palin's comment. Others see it as further justification that abstinence cannot be expected.

But, as Dr. Albert Mohler writes today, Christians need to be less concerned about whether abstinence is realistic and more concerned about making abstinence realistic in our lives:

The real issue for Christian teenagers and their parents is not to debate whether sexual abstinence before marriage is realistic or not. The larger and more important issue is that sexual abstinence until marriage is the biblical expectation and command. Once this is realized, the responsibility for everyone concerned is to ensure that expectations and structures are in place so that abstinence is realistic.

The debate over whether abstinence is realistic or not misses the more important issue -- abstinence must be made realistic.

But what strategies are effective? What should a single person do to be intentional about their purity? One resource I've enjoyed is Randy Alcorn's The Purity Principle. In a chapter titled "Guidelines for Singles," Alcorn acknowledges that while Scripture warns against man-made rules, the Word does call us to live wisely, "exercising God-honoring common sense." He then goes on to share a list of guidelines he used with his own family.

But, more than the guidelines, I especially appreciate the beautiful and accurate picture Alcorn gives of why obedience to God's sexual standards is not just required, but glorious:

"Sex wasn't invented by Hollywood, Madonna, or some pervert in an Internet chat room. Sex was created by an infinitely holy God, wreathed in blinding light and glory, surrounded by radiant, holy angels. The goodness of sex stands or falls with the goodness of its Creator.

...Sex is the means by which children are conceived and marital intimacy is expressed. Both are very important to God. When sexual union takes place in its proper context, in a spirit of giving, the Creator smiles."

But we must also remember...

"Sex is incredibly powerful; it's able to do immense good ... or immense harm...The most magnificent gifts of God, taken outside their God-intended boundaries, become utterly ruinous. So it is with sex. Its potential for great good has a flip side -- potential for great evil.

As long as fire is contained in the fireplace, it keeps you warm. But if the fire is "set free," the house burns down.

I've walked through the smoldering ruins of people's lives devastated by immorality...I cannot forget such scenes imprinted on my soul.

In contrast, to embrace purity is to lay claim to a magnificent gift. Purity is incomparably beautiful...like the frangrance of a rose after a summer shower."

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Comments

[1. Collin said the following at 6:08 PM on Feb 19:]

1

I agree, the point is that God expects purity, so it's not really up to us to make judgements on whether or not it's a "realistic" goal. Besides, God gives us no charge that is unrealistic. "No temptation has seized you except that common to man...and God will provide a way out"- Corinthians I believe.

That said...I can say that living in purity is definitely possible. If you're a parent, I think the key is to acknowledge to your kids that most people fail in this area, but emphasize to your child that his experience will be different. I'm a 23 year old guy, and I remember clearly how my dad raised me in this area. From the time my brother and I were in first grade my dad had really frank discussions with us about sex. (Granted, they weren't so detialed then, but they increased in depth as we matured). It's kind of funny to think back on now, but I remember him saying so matter of factly when I was 7 that when I was in high school I would be dating beautiful girls, and we'd be kissing, and they would want to have sex with me...and at that point I would say no because I was saving it for the person I'd marry. This was definitely a self-fufilling prophesy that came true many times in high school! Litterally, from the time I was young in elementary school I was being prepared for those crazy moments in backseats and basements that otherwise might have been the end of purity. It gave me the sense that I had control to direct where my relationships with girls would go physically. I'm really thankful for how my dad handled the subject so openly with me, and set up positive expectations about the reality I was walking into, but the power I had as an heir of Crist to overcome.

[2. BDB said the following at 6:11 PM on Feb 19:]

2

Yes, a lot of people do sneer that obedience to God is impossible. I feel particularly bad for people whose parents are the ones sneering that abstinence is impossible - way to leave your kid feeling like they should just give in to pressure.

One of the most memorable things I ever heard was actually from a janitor in high school. He said he once met a girl's dad before going out with her. The DAD told him that he only had to "meet him," and that he didn't care what he did with his daughter - and the janitor noted that pretty much everyone had "tried her on for size." But the main point being that how her father treated her obviously had a huge impact on her choices in life.

[3. BDB said the following at 6:32 PM on Feb 19:]

3

As for practical comments, start with alcohol. I've heard that 80% of date rapes happen when one or both parties are under the influence. But even if everything is friendly, being sober makes it a lot easier to tell when it's time to get up and go home.

Readers of Elisabeth Elliot are familiar with her admonishment to women to not share their feelings for a man until after he proposes. That might produce an interesting reaction - guy starts waxing poetic about how she excites feelings in him, and she responds that no man has a right to know her feelings until after he proposes marriage.

Ultimately, people purpose in their heart about whether or not they are going to avoid sin. I've come to believe that those who decide firmly they will not take the risk end up setting their boundaries so far out that people assume they're not interested. Effective at avoiding sin, less effective as an approach to marriage.

Recently some parents at my church started expressing concern that dating now presumes premarital sex. I think they're starting to understand that asking singles if they are "dating" isn't necessarily the right question.

This is not a new phenomenon. When I was in college, a number of non-Christian women addressed this issue by declaring that they "didn't date anymore." It short-circuited individual pressure while still allowing opportunities for other social activities ranging from dinner to going to a play. It does solve the problem of how to "date a lot of people" without the associated risk of falling into sin.

I don't think teaching "abstinence" alone is a good idea. I think teenagers should be taught to begin praying about how God wants them to approach marriage. Not the princess-wedding, but really seeking God's will as to whether marriage is part of God's plan. If people look at "dating" as an approach to marriage, they will quickly recognize people who are only out for a good time.

[4. Daniella said the following at 7:05 PM on Feb 19:]

4

I must say that abstinence is definitely not the norm anymore. When I tell people I'm still a virgin, they are shocked and ask me so many questions like they've never seen a 20 yr old virgin in their lives.
Bristol said that it's not realistic. Sure it's hard. Especially having a boyfriend I'm very much in love with for a year. But it's my reality. And it's important to me. Not only because it's God's law but the bad things that premarital sex can do including unwanted/unplanned, pregnancy, STD's, trust issues, breaking the sanctity of marriage, single parents, broken families. The list goes on and on.
But most teens and young adults don't understand and many don't care because "everybody's doin it"

[5. kyle. said the following at 8:17 PM on Feb 19:]

5

most people seem to find out how close to "the line" they can get without crossing it. this only leads to continual temptation which increases the odds of failure. when my wife and i were dating, we talked often of the fact that the goal was not to find the line and get close to it, but to know where the line was and get close to God. by setting conservative boundaries early and focusing on the endgame, we were ultimately very successful.

[6. Carol said the following at 8:30 PM on Feb 19:]

6

That's an unfortunate thing for Miss Palin to say. I think abstinence would be more realistic if young men and women wouldn't put themselves in situations where having sex is easy (for example, making out in a dark place). I think that teaching girls wise ways to behave toward the opposite sex will really help the ones who intend to stay sexually pure. All of us have the ability to fall in the emotion of the moment.

[7. Mac said the following at 8:43 PM on Feb 19:]

7

Heck yeah! Nothing is impossible with God! My advice? Don't wait so long to get hitched, and don't even date anyone that's not as committed to purity as you are. Spend a lot of your "alone time" in public places.

My hubby and I made it to our wedding day with a funny sort of strategy: when it seemed so frustrating that we just didn't have an outlet to express how deep our love had become, we took a Snickers break! (Yeah, the candy bar.) After all, "Nothing Satisfies Like a Snickers!" It seriously helped lighten the mood. (We had to laugh at ourselves with our pathetic little candy bars.) And it was a nice way to distract a one track mind, while giving ourselves a little reward for keeping it together.

[8. Emily said the following at 9:13 PM on Feb 19:]

8

I personally know other believers who are sexually active and single. I wonder why they are in that position and why I am not. I have abstained with two brief relapses since I became a believer eight years ago.

I wonder if these friends of mine have given up on being abstinent until marriage. Sometimes I wonder if they assumed that since they were not going to get married, they might as well just "cash in" and engage in sex.

Before anybody questions their belief - these are people who truly know the Lord and are believers. But like the rest of us, they are human sinners.

So if you are near or over thirty and you are nowhere near meeting your future spouse and you don't know if you are going to be "chosen" to walk down the altar- what are some realistic measures you can take in order to honor God and abstain?

Personally, I am content with remaining abstinent because God has provided me with a lot of guidance and a strong community. But I am asking so I can be used to help my friends and community.

[9. Dani said the following at 9:27 PM on Feb 19:]

9

Thanks for this post, Heather. When I saw Bristol's interview, and that comment in particular, it really bothered me. One, because I wish that she and her fiancé would get married already. And two, because abstinence *is* realistic.

My boyfriend and I have been together over three years; we started dating during our junior year of high school. We struggled for a while with being sexually pure, until (finally) an older guy at our church started holding my boyfriend accountable. Since that time (around September, maybe?), we haven't kissed, and let me tell you, there is nothing I recommend more than that.

Please understand me, I'm not saying that kissing is sexually impure. But, it's so difficult to draw a line between a "good night" and something beyond that. Drawing the line before our lips even touch is much, much easier!

I still struggle all the time with keeping my thoughts pure, but my boyfriend and I are proof that remaining abstinent *is* realistic.

[10. Rachael Starke said the following at 9:37 PM on Feb 19:]

10

Okay, soapbox time.

How I wish and pray there would be so much more talk in youth groups and college and young adults ministries about the glorious reality of God's covenant relationship wtih His people than there is about the picture of that reality that God calls marriage and, by extension, sexual purity.

Bristol Palin was right, in one (small) sense. Preaching abstinence in a vacuum will never ultimately work. It may help more people hold off on having sex for a while. But it won't save anyone's soul.

We need to talk more about how the pursuit of sexual chastity brings many secondary blessings, because God is good and wants the world to know it.

But we need to talk even more than that about the God whose greatest blesssings are found in new life in His Son, and in the gift of His Spirit. HE is the only One who can help His children live sensibly, righteously, godly and, yes, chastely. If you have His Spirit, He can help you in your battle, just as surely as He can help me in mine.

If you don't, you've lost the battle you probably don't care about fighting anyway.

[11. farmer Tom said the following at 10:21 PM on Feb 19:]

11

Making abstinence a realistic in our lives is not really that difficult IMO.

First, Paul said in I Corinthians 7,

"It is good for a man not to touch a woman ."

In modern English, no Christian guy should ever put his hands, lips or any other body part on a female until he is married to her.

Christian women need to abandon the secular world's ideas about establishing relationships and dating, portrayed in books, movies and on the idiot box.

Parents need to teach their children the Biblical purpose, pattern and privilege of the sexual relationship in marriage.

Churches must provide a place where Biblical sexuality is clearly taught, defined and celebrated.

Do these things and abstinence is attainable. The problem is that too many men, women, parents and churches fail to do their part.

More than a few of the posters at this blog can't even make up their mind if sodomy is wrong, let alone fornication. So someone somewhere is not doing their job of defining what Biblical sexuality is, and where it is to be practiced.

[12. Texas Craig said the following at 11:09 PM on Feb 19:]

12

For abstinence to be realistic (and I think it is and can be), we must also recognize the harm that continuing to push marriage back later and later in life does to that possibility. Up until the last 100 years or so, most people married in their teens or very early 20s. In that situation, it was more plausible to abstain from sexual conduct until marriage. Now that many people are waiting until they are in their mid or late 20s before marrying, it is MUCH more difficult to abstain.

From a practical standpoint, it is much easier for a 14-year-old to think "I will likely be married in the next 5 years, so I can hold out and remain pure during that time" than to think "I have to remain pure for 10-15 more years."

While I understand the pitfalls to marrying young in our society, there is also much to be said for it--at least when it comes to sexual purity.

[13. rushncap said the following at 11:16 PM on Feb 19:]

13

Christians have been trying to "make abstinence realistic" for about a millennium and a half now. They have failed for that whole millennium and a half. Can someone explain to me how you plan to succeed now?

[14. Hannah C. said the following at 11:36 PM on Feb 19:]

14

Honestly, going partly from personal experience and partly looking at the culture around me - I don't think it's realistic to expect people who date for five or six years before even getting engaged, let alone married, to stay abstinent. I'm sure it's possible, but I know it has to be hard, and I don't know if I personally could do it. A lot of that has to do with setting limits and sticking to them, as well, and where you set the limits has some effect on things.

But in general, I'm not sure how practical it is to insist on both a late marriage (for a couple who's been dating for a while) and abstinence before marriage. (And no, I'm not saying Boundless or anyone espouses this viewpoint. It's just my viewpoint; perhaps I've put the two together wrongly.)

[15. Nicole said the following at 12:23 AM on Feb 20:]

15

Thank you for this post! I volunteer with teens and it can be so discouraging to find out how many of them have had or are currently having sex, even amongst the teens that are "churched/Christians". It has been difficult to know how to talk to them in an appropriate and God-honoring way.

[16. Whitney H said the following at 3:01 AM on Feb 20:]

16

My mom and I were talking about this right after the interview came out and she actually asked me if I thought abstinence was "not realistic."

The truth is, Bristol has a point and entirely missed the point!

In our world, where teens and young adults are saturated with sexual pressure and input, I think it's unrealistic to expect a young adult to remain abstinent merely because they're Christian and "know better." From my own (bad) experience, you have to truly believe in it for it to speak louder than the culture!

In that sense, I think abstinence and a healthy diet are equally "unrealistic" in our world. That doesn't mean we should just give up and eat the doughnuts!

[17. Erin said the following at 4:58 AM on Feb 20:]

17

I'm looking forward to seeing what other people can say about the issue of making abstinence realistic.

I'm afraid I don't have much experience to advise anyone. I grew up in culture where marriages were arranged and you didn't socialise with the opposite sex, so staying abstinent was a given (well, for me anyway, but not for many of the local girls. The local boys were too in awe of my father - the local missionary - to even look at me most of the time).

By the time I returned home I had it all so ingrained into my subconcious that I just never got into any tempting situations.

But now I'm begining to mentor some younger girls and am at a total loss as how to guide them. Somehow I don't think anything I have to say to them will seem realistic.

[18. Tara said the following at 6:20 AM on Feb 20:]

18

I'm married now but what helped my husband and I tremendously was to focus on God's purpose for sex. By focusing on the beauty of how God meant sex to be whenever temptation came to our individual minds we would brush it away because we didn't want to ruin what was coming. Our young adult's Bible Study did an in-depth look at Song of Solomon and that's a great place to start learning what God-designed erotic love looks like. And it's definately worth waiting for.

[19. Carl said the following at 6:51 AM on Feb 20:]

19

Being 24 and single sucks!

[20. Tera said the following at 6:52 AM on Feb 20:]

20

Dannah Gresh has an event for mothers and their daughters that addresses modesty and God's truth about beauty, as well are othere resources. Check out www.purefreedom.org.

[21. Michela said the following at 7:25 AM on Feb 20:]

21

This is so true. I have been rather disillusioned this past year in regards to purity. I made a commitment to purity when I was thirteen, and by the Grace of God I have been able to continue that commitment (I'm 23 and unmarried). However, I have been to three weddings in the past year where the bride was pregnant. All three weddings were for couples who professed to be strong believers.

I think it is sad that we as Christians are failing in this area as much as the secular world. I admit that it is really difficult to keep our thoughts and actions pure- something I truly did not understand until I was in a serious relationship myself. However, God's law remains and it has been set in place to protect this gift that He has given us.

I completely agree with Dr. Mohler. It is not a question of whether it is "realistic" or not. Of course it's not "realistic" in our culture today- not with such a hyper-sexualized media. Rather, it is one way that we need to set ourselves apart from the world.

Some ways that have helped me to make this a reality in my life are really watching how I dress (I know- we hear this all the time but it is true that how we dress as women affects the men around us!), being extremely careful about the things that I watch (no Sex and the City for me...), and being intentional in my relationship with my boyfriend about striving for purity.

[22. Matt from DC said the following at 7:27 AM on Feb 20:]

22

So, anyone know "some real strategies to make it happen"?

I'm all ears. I'm going to the National Gallery of Art this weekend with my girlfriend and then making dinner for her at my place.

[23. Matthew said the following at 7:29 AM on Feb 20:]

23

As a young man who desires wholeheartedly to remain as pure as possible before marriage, I have to say that it's really, really hard. Even when you have a supportive Christian family, good friends, a Bible-believing church, and accountability-- it's hard, and I have definitely screwed it up before. Josh Harris gave a great series of talks on purity (you can find them on the Covenant Life Church podcast), but at the end of the day it's like most other aspects of obedience: praying, reading the Bible, confessing our sins to one another, and seeking to make Jesus our greatest treasure. There is no program, no gimmick, and no secret that will make it easy somehow-- just a radical love for Christ that translates into thorough obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is realistic-- and faithful!

What is not as realistic is expecting a huge bunch of people that don't have the power of the Holy Spirit to remain abstinent... and that's a much stickier wicket.

[24. Ambrosia said the following at 7:35 AM on Feb 20:]

24

Hmmm...ok!
Abstinence is not realistic? Personally I agree with what Dr Mohler is saying, wether it is realistic or not, as christian singles, we need to MAKE it realistic.

Where exactly does reality fit into the christian life? I think at times, it is an excuse not to have faith; just like the word "luck". Was it realistic for Peter to think he could walk on water? Or was it realistic for a man with a dead daughter to think some prophet(Jesus) could bring her back to life or to think that when we die, we shall arise with Christ. All these things are not "realistic" to the human mind but faith, perseverance and the power of Jesus Christ makes it possible. Reality? puhlease! Give me Faith anyday.

[25. kaj said the following at 8:12 AM on Feb 20:]

25

BDB -- Re: Comment #3

If a woman is not supposed to "not share their feelings for a man until after he proposes" per Elisabeth Elliot, what is the difference between that and expressing interest in a man, or appreciation for acts of kindness a man does for a woman?

[26. IMO said the following at 8:25 AM on Feb 20:]

26

"Christians have been trying to "make abstinence realistic" for about a millennium and a half now. They have failed for that whole millennium and a half. Can someone explain to me how you plan to succeed now?"

I have succeeded. I have friends, both male and female, that have succeeded. And as you can see on here on Boundless, there are also those that have succeeded.

So what's your point?

Oh yea I know, you just lumped all of us under the Christian umbrella.

Congrats on your stereotyping skills, man.

[27. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:38 AM on Feb 20:]

27

Comment 4, several years ago I was a twenty year old virgin.

Comment 2, if anyone saw the actual interview did Bristol Palin actually "sneer" that abstinence was unrealistic?

Or did she merely "state" that opinion?

I read the interview transcript in the link provided by Ms. Koerner, but it's hard to judge the attitude of the interviewee.... so if anyone actually saw the interview, was there a "sneer?"

[28. obewan said the following at 8:46 AM on Feb 20:]

28

I think people are missing the spirit of her comment and that she did not word it well. What she perhaps meant is that it is unrealistic for abstinence to work for EVERYONE and that we would have ZERO Christians pregnant out of wedlock.

In her interview, she did say that she wants her experience to serve as a “warning” to others of the consequences of unprotected sex, and she also mentioned that abstinence is the only surefire protection.

I am all for abstinence, and that has been the practice in my life, but I realize even Christians who "abstain" are prone to failure at some point. When I was in High School, there was a dating couple in the youth group at the fundamentalist church I attended. They were leaders. They were serious Bible thumpers. Their Bible was at the top of their book stack every day. They were a very vocal and outspoken witness in every class. They were "abstaining" and preaching purity to the other kids all the time. Well guess which couple got pregnant out of wedlock in senior year? They were both honor students destined for college with a free scholarship ride, but he had to marry her and join the Navy to support his new baby. I won't comment about what it did to their witness or about the gossip and mocking that ensued. Even "strong" Christians can fail in this area, so I think the bottom line is that it is "unrealistic" to expect "abstinence" to result in zero Christians pregnant out of wedlock.

[29. Rachael said the following at 8:48 AM on Feb 20:]

29

I hope to have more collected thoughts by the time I might end up in a situation where the topic comes up with a young woman.

Perhaps one thing that might help prevent promiscuous behavior is to share stories about real people's feelings of regret about 'going too far'.

As far as premarital intercourse itself, I bet one tactic that might work for women is to scare them about the specifics. But then that fear might be carried to the marriage bed.

I wonder also if it's possible to be overexposed to mindsets regarding relationships with the opposite sex. Perhaps there should be a lot of education about love and forgiveness. I think the input shouldn't be MERELY abstinence, abstinence, abstinence and virtually nothing else. Ideally there should be a broader Biblical focus than that -- teachings on love, forgiveness, humility, and selflessness.

[30. Heather Koerner said the following at 8:49 AM on Feb 20:]

30

Matt from DC (#22):

I like the 4 "p"s:

1) Print it. Write down what your standards are. Set your boundaries before you are even in the situation.

2) Plan it. Do not leave gaps in the evening. Start to finish, you know what you are doing and where you will be.

3) Public. Keep it public. Period. I've done some research on this :) and everyone I've ever talked with has not had sexual intercourse with people watching.

So, Matt, seriously, just think about whether having her over to your house alone is wise. Maybe a picnic dinner on the Lincoln Memorial steps? Maybe another couple (how about an older, Christian possible mentor couple) to join you and when they leave, she leaves?

4) Prayer. Bathe your date in prayer. And not just "Lord, help me keep my engine in second gear when I've got the accelerator to the floor" but "Lord, help me see her as someone's future wife. Help me see her as you do. Give me wisdom. Give me the desire to protect her. Help me to love her as you do, wanting what is best for her."

Blessings! Any guys have other advice?

[31. Rachael said the following at 8:53 AM on Feb 20:]

31

#10 Rachael wrote:

"If you have His Spirit, He can help you in your battle, just as surely as He can help me in mine."

I like that. The God who.........the God who........The God who..........can surely help me, too. We believe in the omnipotent God.

[32. Catherine said the following at 9:23 AM on Feb 20:]

32

Abstinence is realistic- I have quite a few friends who have kept their coomitment to purity all the way to the altar (all married after 25). I made it to 23, which was rare at my college. What led me that far? A close relationship with god, good parents who gave me good advice and just enough freedom, and no really serious relationships. What led me away? Making friends with girls ( and through them men) who did not share my values, the lack of a good church community, my feelings of being left behind, and not being able to see the end of my waiting. What has led me back to purity? Reading good books ( real sex,sex for Christians, sacred marriage) that renewed my spiritual strength, christtian women I met who lived chastely ( and dated), a good church and a very good boyfriend who taught me to love better. Modesty is also essential. Practicing this taught me my true value. Being seen as a person and not a body can be difficult when you are single. If only I could talk to that 23 yo now....

[33. John said the following at 9:40 AM on Feb 20:]

33

Texas Craig #12,

Wow, I can't believe it, but we actually agree about something.

"For abstinence to be realistic (and I think it is and can be), we must also recognize the harm that continuing to push marriage back later and later in life does to that possibility."

THIS IS THE MOST CRITICAL POINT!

All other areas are secondary to this fact. Pushing marriage AND maturity back only puts singles under more and more pressure and more and more temptation.

# 14 "Honestly, going partly from personal experience and partly looking at the culture around me - I don't think it's realistic to expect people who date for five or six years before even getting engaged, let alone married, to stay abstinent."

Exactly why this should not be the course of action. The church should be raising mature believers who are ready to marry far closer to their physical maturity then it is presently doing.

Staying pure 5, 10, 15 years after sexual maturity IS unrealistic and becomes more unrealistic the farther out you go.

It is a sin the church is perpetuating. Instead of influencing culture, the culture has and is influencing the church. "Christians" put themselves before God's word.

"I have to graduate high school first, then college, then get a job, then find myself (in the Lord, hey, it has to be "christian" self actualization after all), etc. Then I'll get married"

"Christian" parents actually teach their kids this crap, whether explicitly or implicitly.

If you burn, GET MARRIED!

[34. Alden said the following at 9:59 AM on Feb 20:]

34

To respond to certain posts below, I don't see how it is the case that staying abstinent before marriage is "impractical," much less "impossible." As a college junior at a top university, it's never been an issue--it is not until one puts herself into a position where becoming intimate with someone is a temptation that remaining a virgin is difficult.

Which of course begs the question: why would one put himself into that kind of a situation? Truth of the matter is this: we want to give in. We put ourselves into positions where it would be difficult, if not impossible, to stay pure because we really don't want to be pure.

Abstinence is hardly "impossible." It is difficult in a sex-saturated society, and it is difficult if we put ourselves into positions where having sex before marriage is a temptation. But if we follow the advice of scripture to flee, to run away, from sexual immorality (1 Cor. 6:18), if we avoid situations where we are weak and unable to be self-controlled, then sex, though enticing, is not a temptation before marriage.

What we must deal with is not "making it possible" to remain pure before marriage, but getting people, especially students, to want to be pure and act accordingly. How is this done? Only by the regenerating power of God's mercy and reflection upon the Christ's atoning work, the desire to please Him which surpasses all other things.

[35. Keb said the following at 10:02 AM on Feb 20:]

35

*grumble* I'm 29 in 2 weeks, and still a virgin. It's pretty darn realistic to ME.

I'm doing it because I believe God's rules are right, and that I owe it to my future husband and children, should I ever be fortunate enough to have either. Doesn't mean it's easy, doesn't mean it's fun, but it's VERY real.

[36. Jordan C from Canada said the following at 10:04 AM on Feb 20:]

36

I think we need to put the emphasis on the benefits of remaining pure. We have to make it something young people (like me!) choose to do. If I may be frank, I lost my virginity at quite a young age; I was in the 9th grade, she was in the 8th. Prior to that, I felt that I "had" to be pure, but I didn't really understand why it was important.

I'm almost 19 now, (at university, etc. where a LOT of people are having sex) and I've been chaste since I was 16. Only this time, it's a choice I've consciously made, rather than have superimposed on me. The purity that I have now is comforting, welcome, and fulfilling. The "purity" I had before felt tyrannical and I didn't feel happy in it.

Also, I'm not sure how mainstream this belief is, but when I decided to rededicate myself to purity at 16, I did a lot of praying with my parents, pastors, and close friends to "regain" my spiritual purity. Like I said, I'm not sure how many believe in that, but I definitely feel like it has worked for me.

[37. khalil said the following at 10:06 AM on Feb 20:]

37

Maybe I have missed it somewhere in these comments, but you know, there is a choice involved...as with every sin we commit. We can choose to sin and embrace it or we can choose the things of God and do our best to remain pure. This doesn't make it any easier, temptation (feelings, emotions, sensations, pleasure, etc) can be a difficult thing to overcome. I think we forget at times that we are called to a higher standard.

From a personal perspective I have found it hard at times to remain pure. Being a virgin at 31 hasn't been easy, esp. when temptation is staring you in the face. As others have reported when people find out they're virgins at a certain age I have encountered those that ask me if there is something wrong with me for choosing abstinence. I don't discount God's power and presence in all this, but I have to remember I have a choice. I can engage willfully in a sin with a person who is willing to be a partner in crime or I can choose self control and give respect...to her, myself, and ultimately God.

[38. Matt from DC said the following at 10:19 AM on Feb 20:]

38

Heather,

Thanks for your help.

Print it- We've already set our boundaries, but I don't see the point in writing them down. Do you mean to keep them in my pocket at all times? I have a lot of different pants/jackets ;)

Plan it- I think this is the most helpful point for my present situation. I just have a big question mark after dinner. Of course I have stay within the boundaries on the plan, but I don't have a concrete activity just sitting and talking. If I came up with something and a way to end the evening it would be beneficial. And yes, this is my responsibility to have a plan for the evening as planning is a part of leadership and leadership a key component of Biblical manliness.

Public- This is the one I don't agree with. I'm open to hear more persuasive arguments than couples have sex when they're alone. I imagine that at some point on future "dates" I may do something like have brunch on Sunday in town, come back to my house to hang around, read together, and then go to the evening church service. While I like the idea of double dates and intend to do them I don't see how being alone with my girlfriend and holy is not possible. It is a risk I'm comfortable taking for now. We'll see how things go. Is it wise? It is as wise as having a glass of red wine.

Prayer- Oh, how good to hear these things said by someone else. I have been bathing our relationship in prayer even before she accepted my invitation to intentional dating. You are right when you say that she is someone's future wife. I would not want to spoil anything for them in their happy union by stealing it now; even if the he of "their" is me.

Another thing that I do that dovetails nicely with asking God to transform my thinking is sharing paired with accountability (both not p words). I share weekly with my SmallGroup about dates. I have three groups of relationships with unbelievers who are close to me asking how I'm keeping up my commitment to sexual purity. Also, if I don't know which way to go, how to make a certain decision, I think about the two or more courses of action and which I would rather explain to her father. There will likely come a day when we discuss my relationship with his daughter and I do want to bring him a good report.

Thank you again for your advice. I now have a direction for my biggest challenge this weekend. Oh, and if I don't come up with anything better I'll politely kick her out and drive her home at 10 PM ;) Finally, I would love to discuss the third p - public - with any and all takers.

[39. Victoria said the following at 10:23 AM on Feb 20:]

39

Unfortunately, I do think abstinence is unrealistic. In my own experience, I know very few Christians who waited until marriage. One of the worship leaders in my church (early twenties) is living with his girlfriend. My college roommate, a professing Christian who was at one point committed to saving her first kiss for the wedding day, ended up living with her boyfriend for a year before they finally got married. And those are just two examples. This is jaded, but I do think that young Christians are just not committed to purity anymore. It was easier back in the day when premarital sex was taboo for everyone, Christian or not. Now people just go with the culture. I am terrified to raise children in today's society. And don't tell me to just trust God -- what, all those Godly parents of kids that fell into immorality weren't trusting God enough? God must be so grieved when He sees how lightly some (or most) take their faith.

[40. Andrew said the following at 10:29 AM on Feb 20:]

40

Kaj,

Yeah, what is up with that Elisabeth Eliot quote? She wants girls to not share feelings for a guy until after he has proposed?!?! How is the guy supposed to know if the girl is really interested in him. Its hard enough being a testosterone filled single man trying to commit to abstinence before marriage. I think that girls should show more appreciation for guys who do repect them. Too often Christian girls don't. (Of course not all Christian girls are like that, but I had a couple bad expereinces) Especially when I see non-Christian girls that are "so in love" with their boyfriends depite that fact that the guys treat them like crap.

[41. Renee Linnen said the following at 10:59 AM on Feb 20:]

41

It doesn't matter if you set guidelines and don't watch your children. Think of it in economic terms. We have accountants/auditors to watch the books, but they were crooks so we made the sec and other quasi-government groups, but they were crooks. Basically we can trust, but we must verify.

If you insist on letting your children date- they will have sex. If you allow them to go out alone- they will have sex. If you let them stay at each other's house alone, or with other friends, or their no-good siblings, they will have sex.

You need to know their friends, set rules and give consequences, know when their last class is over and how long it takes to get home, make them come right home after school, only allow friends over when you are home, only allow them to be friends with the children of your own friends (they will have your values) and look at their phone and internet usage.

They are children not adults, they don't have a right to privacy, and they are fallen, so they will fail. Its your job as a parent to at least make sure it does not go on underneath your nose.

That was one of the reason's I did not vote for Sarah Palin. She had no control of her kids.

[42. Victoria said the following at 11:04 AM on Feb 20:]

42

Matt (#38): I commend your desire to remain pure before God. Your obedience is a great testimony! That said, I have to strongly agree with Heather on the public thing. What you have in mind is a terrible idea. When my husband and I were dating, we found it a huge struggle to stay pure, despite our best intentions. We would attend church together in the morning, grab lunch, then go back to my dorm room to hang out or watch movies -- then before you know it, we were passionately making out. Didn't matter that we spent the morning earnestly seeking God. Didn't matter that we sincerely promised one another that it wouldn't happen. There's only so long a person can hold out, despite their best intentions. We decided from then on to always leave the door to my dorm room open to the communal hallway. Voila, all of a sudden the temptation factor went way down! The fact that we weren't really alone anymore helped us stick to our boundaries. If this woman will become your wife, you have the rest of your life to cuddle on the couch together alone with a good book, or after a romantic dinner. I strongly urge you instead to spend as little time as possible alone in your respective homes, but rather plan more public dates. You can get a cup of coffee or tea at a place like Starbucks or Borders and sit there talking for hours, very intimately, while still being in public. About your glass of red wine analogy: very few people develop a serious alcohol problem from enjoying the occasional glass of wine. But many, MANY Christians fall into temptation after a romantic, intimate evening alone together. Just ask anyone.

[43. Megan said the following at 11:05 AM on Feb 20:]

43

Here's when abstinence becomes unrealistic:
-when you fail in your daily walk with Christ
-when you choose to please self rather than God
-when you have one foot in the world and one foot in the world
-when you're alone with someone from the opposite sex
-when you fill your mind with stuff from the world around you (ie music, TV, internet, etc)

Growing up, our youth pastors never mentioned anything like this to our youth group. It's sad when the church and more importantly parents do not teach its youth about sex because it leaves the door wide open for the world to teach them about sex. First, parents need to get it together and start enforcing rules. The church needs to prepare parents and youth for this.

Here's my issue - stop saying "save yourself for your wedding night". Is that even biblical? It's biblical, and a straight-out commandment, that you abstain from sex until married but when did it become about the wedding night? When did we lose sight that this is about God? The phrase "save yourself" sounds like it's a choice to abstain. Also, we don't sin against each other (ie our future husband), we sin against God. We can do something wrong against someone else and as Christians we are expected to seek forgiveness from them. So if you haven't saved yourself for your husband, it's not about him, it's about sinning against God.

I think we've skewed the issues here. I'm not at all saying that premarital sex won't bring problems to a marriage, but that's not why we abstain; we abstain because God has commanded us to.

I just wish someone would have said this to me.

[44. Carrie (the original) said the following at 11:06 AM on Feb 20:]

44

The 27 y/o virgin will confess that abstinence is unrealistic. I don't think anybody can "choose" abstinence and think that it will never be an up-hill battle. You only realize how "un-realistic" things are when you are in the midst of said battle. This is what separates the men from the boys (or, um, women from girls).
It's when in the battle to remain pure and chaste that one realizes the need for the Triune God to grant them grace for the moment. I think if we stop focusing on the possibility/i> of life-long celibacy and we cry out for grace for the moment, things are a little easier.
Sometimes there is actual physiological pain with the committment to remain pure/chaste, but Scripture tends to describe sanctification in some pretty violent, painful terms.

[45. Tiffany said the following at 11:09 AM on Feb 20:]

45

Sorry, folks, I'm going to disagree with most of you here.

I would much rather my child make the mistake of having premarital sex than marry young just to have sex.

I know...shocking, right? But if I had married my high school boyfriend because we wanted to have sex, I'd be stuck in a LIFELONG commitment to a thoughtless, cheating jerk. Yes, I regret my decision to have sex with him. But to imagine missing out on a lifetime with my now current husband, a man who stayed physically pure for me and has offered me grace that echoes the grace of God for my past mistakes - that's something too horrible to imagine.

[46. Tami said the following at 11:15 AM on Feb 20:]

46

I agree with a lot of what's been said here, so I won't re-hash.

But I did want to call attention to Rachael Starke's comment (10), as I don't hear it stressed very often. I absolutely agree that the central focus of many youth (and young adult) groups is not Christ or the gospel, but is dating and/or sex. When those topics are discussed, sure -- the people come in droves! But it reinforces the implication that dating/sex is the *only* issue worth discussing. Also, while well intentioned, it brings about the "polar bear effect" -- if someone is constantly telling you to not think about sex, pretty soon, that becomes what you do indeed think about. If thoughts preceed actions, then developing a chaste and abstinent lifestyle comes first from thinking right thoughts. If the mind is filled with things other than dating and sex, it becomes a whole lot easier to do that. So in short (heh), perhaps many groups need to de-throne sex/dating as the topic du jour, and re-throne teaching about Christ, if they want kids to start adopting a right attitude and a healthier perspective towards dating/sex. It might not be the "popular" choice, and it might not attract as many attendants, but those who come will, likely, be stronger, and the teaching will reap greater fruit.

I'm not saying we should ignore the topic -- but perhaps the time has come for a bit of *de*emphasis. "My" high school youth group talked about dating so often it turned me off -- I stopped going largely because it seemed that was *all* they ever talked about, and because I wasn't dating, it just made me feel isolated. (And incidentally, the church *never* talked about the Holy Spirit. At all. So obviously, there was a major imbalance of teaching going on.) Twenty years later -- the group is going chapter-by-chapter through various books of the Bible. And those kids are *growing*. I feel blessed to see that, but I confess I'm a tad jealous, wishing they had that when *I* went through! I think what's great about that method is, that you cover *all* ground, and if you go through a book like 1 Corinthians, you're going to hit on *all sorts* of topics that are totally relevant to today's teenagers, and yet they're placed in scriptural context so that no *one* topic is overemphasized.

[47. Tara said the following at 11:33 AM on Feb 20:]

47

"Finally, I would love to discuss the third p - public - with any and all takers."

"Public" was a dating priciple I held to when I was single. Once I got into an actual relationship I found we were alone...alot. And nothing happened. Seriously. We never "came close", we didn't cross boundaries. My now-husband had a place of his own and I would go over by myself and we'd sit on the couch and watch movies. I actually found my biggest struggles with impure thoughts happened when I was by myself in my own bed at night.

There is importance to keeping yourself public as much as possible (we all are, afterall, human)but you don't have to be legalistic about it either. When God's values start to become your values you start to hold to them even when no one else is watching. But having God's values also means you will put in those saftey measures that will help prevent you falling outside His Will. Like, my now-husband and I could spend a few hours alone together but we already had a no-kissing rule and I made it very clear to him where his hands were and weren't allowed to go. lol I also had the philosophy that if we couldn't do it in front of my parents we couldn't do it all. But ultimately, we both believe in shaping our characters after that of Christ and certain behaviours and mindsets are "out of character". Doing the right thing slowly becomes natural because it's who you are as a person. It's all about being transformed.

And I want to encourage those who are jaded in thinking everyone falls in the area of purity. It's not true. I know many, many people--myself & my husband included--who made it to marriage as a virgin.

[48. Mary said the following at 11:40 AM on Feb 20:]

48

Sorry folks, but deciding whether or not abstinence is "realistic" is beside the point. God knows that apart from Him, we cannot conquer temptations of all kinds. I Cor. 10:13 is as solid as it was when Paul wrote it - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit! Does God honor His Word? Absolutely.

Jenny Schroedel wrote in a Boundless article called A SEASON OF CELIBACY: "Singleness is a circumstance, but celibacy is a choice. Singleness implies solitude, but celibacy is relational. Those who choose celibacy, for a season or a lifetime, enter into a covenantal relationship with God. Although many consider celibacy as the negation of something good — namely sexual relations and the deep physical, spiritual and emotional intimacy it implies — the traditional Christian understanding was more positive. Celibacy freed people to live completely for God and to follow Him to the ends of the earth as any devoted spouse would do."

CELIBACY IS A COVENANT WITH GOD! Just within the last year, that has revolutionized the way I view my "single status" with God! By the way, I do not say that lightly, because I am a 66 year-old always- single woman who still has a healthy (and very long-standing) desire for the intimacy of a Godly marriage, body, soul, spirit. Did I ever dream I would be 66 and still single? NO! Have I shouted at God about that and His words about sexual purity? YES - REPEATEDLY!

While we can choose not to eat, eventually we have to in order to satisfy physical appetite or we die. It is not that way with the sexual appetite! While it is strong, we do not die choosing to wait! Giving in to a temptation does not prove temptation's strength! Resisting it does! Apart from God's grace and mercy, it is an impossible task.

[49. Dani said the following at 11:56 AM on Feb 20:]

49

Victoria (#39):

If one of your worship leaders is living with his girlfriend and the pastors/elders haven't brought him under church discipline, you need to leave that church. It is the responsibility of church leadership to cut the yeast out of the dough, lest the whole loaf be leavened. (i.e. They need to rebuke the sinner or remove him from fellowship, lest the whole church be influenced by his sin.)

Perhaps you aren't meeting Christians who are pure because your church doesn't preach purity.

[50. Adam said the following at 11:57 AM on Feb 20:]

50

Hey Everyone!

I think there is an issue that is not being addressed in all of this. I don't believe that all of the tactical issues mentioned will help. Yes, if a person cannot handle kissing, or something else, then it is certainly right for those people to not do it.

I also don't think that solutions like "get married earlier" are going to help either. If you cannot control yourself before marriage, what makes you think that you will be able to control yourself after marriage? Even if you are married, you could get a secratary at work who will not take no for an answer. She will try to get you alone, and then start seducing you. If you have no self-control, then the marriage will be destroyed.

You see, the church is obsessed with these external things like marrying earlier, not kissing, etc. These will not solve anything, because they do not address the real heart of the problem, and that is the issue of wisdom and the heart. The book of Proverbs is the best in this regard. In chapter 2, Solomon is addressing the fact that we need to gain wisdom, and then it will keep us from certain things. In verse 16, Solomon specifically says that wisdom will keep you from the way of the adulteress.

You see, it is all well and good to do tactical things like not kissing if you struggle with that area, but it is never going to make a heart wise with discretion and wisdom. We teach children what is right and wrong in today's churches, but we don't teach them wisdom. We tell that it is wrong to have sexual relations before marriage, but we never teach them the discernment they need to avoid it. Instead, we tell them to get married young, and not kiss until marriage. Yet, when the heat is on, there is no substance there, and in a context where your desires are still more important that God's law anyway, who is going to care about man-made laws?

This is why it requires us to constantly be growing in wisdom. That is why I believe the church is going at this issue all wrong. True purity doesn't come from a "countercultural" list of do's and dont's. It comes from a heart that is seeks to gain wisdom from God which is based in the fear of the Lord. Without this growth in the fear of the Lord, and the wisdom contained therein, a person will remain simple, and will never be kept from sexual immorality. So, as long as the church puts its emphasis in the wrong place, yes, it will be unrealistic for teenagers to be abstinent. However, when churches start reconginsing that there is a fundamental difference between worldly wisdom and Godly wisdom, worldly discernment and Godly discernment, and they start teaching their children accordingly, then it will not only be realistic, but the norm.

God Bless,
Adam

[51. DannieA said the following at 12:14 PM on Feb 20:]

51

I'm 30 and still a virgin...of course I'm also one that does NOT need to have a man in my life. I've always gone with the thought process that if I'm dating someone and I can't see the relationship heading to the alter then the relationship ends and I have no qualms about it. I think many people just date for the sake of dating and not marriage and therefore the longer you are with someone the more chances there are of temptation. Unfortunately the men I've dated were either non-Christians or not marriage minded so I haven't stayed in relationships for too long.

[52. Brian said the following at 12:22 PM on Feb 20:]

52

Matt (#38),

I'll take you up on your offer: If the two of you are alone at your house, will there be a tendency for more physical displays of affection? In other words, are you more likely to sit next to her on the couch with your arm around her? What about kiss her? Is that more or less likely in the privacy of your home?

In my experience it's not that every time you're alone presents an opportunity for sex, instead I would say that every time you're alone presents an opportunity for growing more physically intimate. The closer you grow physically, the more likely you are to fail.

You have to be honest with yourself. When I was dating the woman who is now my wife, it was amazing how proficient I was at deceiving myself about such things. Do you honestly believe that the only alternative to "being alone" is "double dates"? Why not head to a cozy coffee shop? There you will be sitting across the table from her (a preferable position for her during conversations, I assure you).

I pray that you will make a wise decision.

[53. brx said the following at 12:30 PM on Feb 20:]

53

"Realistic" ?? do people really think about what they are saying when they use that word? In these cases, people are usually refering to current situations, statistics, cultural conditions and mindset. They are often talking about working with conditions as they are and not actually changing those conditions.

So, of course Bristol Palin is correct when she says abstinence is "not realistic at all." The human condition is such that left to our own nature and devices, we will tend to seek the most expedient means to our own pleasure!

Christians are called to live against their nature. Living chastely means reordering sex according to God's beautiful design - and it applies equally to single and married people.

Personally, I don't think the Church in general preaches enough about the details of sex in God's big design and we Christians don't talk about it enough with non-Christians.

Some key things that would be nice to see in the mainstream cultural understanding:

SEXUAL INTERCOURSE is the sacred 'signing' of a marriage promise to love and protect as long as you live. Sex without marriage is a lie and at least one party involved is being used like a cheap thrill-toy for an endorphin rush.

MARRIAGE commitment is a sacred symbol God gave us to remind us of His unwavering commitment to his people.

SEX is a sacred gift from God that represents the warm, intimate passion that God has for us in the covenant relationship with Him.

SEX employed anywhere else is only a temporary high that does more damage than good.

Like eating healthy, a life with sex ordered according to God's design -living chastely- provides a more sustainable good life - and good society.

CONDEMNING ADULTERY, if we really analyze and think about societal trajectory, is good for the healthy growth of a society. That's just one of the many pieces of wisdom in the Israelite's Law that was also praised by other nations when they heard about and seriously contemplated it.

Talk about these things in an excited and pasionate manner with non-Christian friends!

Grace, peace & adventure!

[54. mary kate said the following at 12:35 PM on Feb 20:]

54

i'm 29 and still single and celibate. i went thru some pretty tough times. but honestly, it's never been staying celibate that's been hard for me. it's been talking about being celibate and also, for a while, trying to stay pure. sex was always the 'do not cross' line. but i went through a phase where staying pure was something i didn't really think about.

it really annoys me when people like bristol talk about celibacy being unrealistic. what does that make me? a freak? a reject? i'm a very attractive, successful, warm and caring person. most worldly people would probably be shocked if they knew i was still a virgin.

during my 'less pure' time i learned some hard stuff about purity. i learned it was directly affected by my alcohol intake, the people i chose to spend time with, and whether or not i really wanted to do what god wanted or not. i also found out that a lot of things that the world and even newer christians think are harmless really aren't. spending the night with a guy (sleeping together but not sleeping together), spending a lot of time alone together alone late at night, and other things that many of my friends think are ok really aren't, at least not for me. i'll go out on a limb and say they probably aren't for most others, either.

renee, #41, i agreed with almost everything you said except this paragraph:
If you insist on letting your children date- they will have sex. If you allow them to go out alone- they will have sex. If you let them stay at each other's house alone, or with other friends, or their no-good siblings, they will have sex.

i dated, went out alone, and stayed at same sex friends' houses, and i never had sex. i think the key is to set and enforce limits, and know your own kids.

[55. Laura said the following at 12:37 PM on Feb 20:]

55

Victoria, if one of the worship leaders at your church is living with his girlfriend and your pastor is allowing him to continue... my advice is to find another church. Egregious, unrepentant, public sin is not to be tolerated among those who claim the name of Christ, much less among those who desire positions of leadership.

I think if we look at people who simply call themselves Christians, then of course chastity is unrealistic! But how absurd is it to assume that all people who call themselves Christians are actually people who have been made new creations in Christ? Completely absurd! But for those whose hearts of stone have been replaced by God, whose eternal condemnation has been reversed by Christ, it's completely realistic. We who are in Christ have the Holy Spirit, God's precious word, the body of Christ, and countless other spiritual blessings to ensure our sanctification.

Just because so-called "Christians" fail at abstinence (often because, as other commenters have mentioned, they're never really given a reason WHY they should abstain) doesn't mean we should feel compelled to ignore the frequent Biblical commands to live lives of chastity!

[56. Kate said the following at 12:50 PM on Feb 20:]

56

I am glad you started this discussion because the development and treatment of girls' developing sexuality (in secular and Christian culture) is one of the issues that I care most about!

I agree with BDB that education about alcohol is a really important part of this. And similarly to trying to get people to understand how alcohol turns off our inhibitions and makes us less able to think clearly... how it is a similar mindset once you are "in the moment" and "in the mood..." and it's not like once you start feeling all "shmoozy" you can say "oh well I've got to do it now" you can always still break away and say no and walk away, and in fact it is your responsibility to do so.

I think another thing to address with girls is related to empowerment. Teach them what is disrespectful behavior and to have the awareness and guardedness, as well as the confidence to identify it and say no to spending time with boys/men who treat them like that. Help them understand about males out to seduce them in a predatory purposeful way, as well as how otherwise well-intentioned males can be foolishly wrapped up in the mood too and they need to be guarded against both.

I think establishing conscious, spelled-out boundaries is a good strategy but should not be the only one. Because you also have to figure out how to follow your rules and what things may lead you to not follow them! We need to discuss the why's about how people end up having sex when they didn't truly want to... or why they want to when they should not be doing it.

Surely a lot of sexual temptation is related to foolish and sinful human hearts. But I think some of it is related to seeking legitimate needs to be met in wrong ways. Especially with the issue of physical touch (and emotional support to some extent). For many single adults, and even teens... they are never touched. We crave that touch and I believe if we are not being touched in appropriate ways, we will be especially thrilled by touching members of the opposite sex and more susceptible to following the sexual directions this can lead into.

So yes parents, grandparents, sibs, etc. should hug their teens on a regular basis even if they are awkward and whining about it! Give them opportunities to sit close to you and walk arm-in-arm (when nobody is looking!) or whatever. Hug your same-sex friends, bump into them, horse around, put a hand on their shoulder or an arm around them when they are sad, etc. (Of course I am not suggesting prolonged intimate/sexual touching here!)

Some teens and singles are lucky to be in families that are very affectionate or around a lot of kids to hug and hold and play with. But for singles who aren't, it could be a good idea to seek out appropriate forms of human touch and/or spend time with animals.

Lastly, there is that age-old advice about how idle times allow the mind and body to wander into bad things. To some extent, I was always less tempted when I was busy all day and tired at night, and/or largely occupied with other activities. It's so stereotypical that it's annoying, but I think it's actually true.

[57. Matt from DC said the following at 12:54 PM on Feb 20:]

57

Many thanks to all who have responded.

Brian, in response to your question about alternatives to double dating I would say no. I know how to do public dates with just the two of us. I mentioned double dating because that was a way that Heather suggested that I could still have her over to my house and maintain "public".

[58. Louise from Chicago said the following at 1:24 PM on Feb 20:]

58

Comment 54, from my interpretation of the interview transcript, I doubt Bristol Palin was insinuating that abstinent people are "freaks/rejects"...I think she meant abstinence is not a realistic expectation for EVERYONE.

That's just the way I read it though...and I did not see the actual interview.

[59. Becky said the following at 1:28 PM on Feb 20:]

59

I have to say that getting married young just to avoid premarital sex is an insanely bad idea! I was 32 when I married and yes i was a virgin. I married "late" because I wanted to marry the right one and not just anyone. A lifetime of being with the wrong person is not worth it.

[60. BDB said the following at 2:07 PM on Feb 20:]

60

kaj (#25) wrote:

>>what is the difference between that and expressing interest in a man, or appreciation for acts of kindness a man does for a woman?<<

I do wish she wrote a chapter on what "responding" looks like for a Christian woman. I do think some people take that advice and go further to the point where they don't respond at all. As other articles on Boundless prod men to not wait for a "burning bush" before taking initiative, I sometimes wonder if some women are waiting for a "burning bush" before they respond.

She has a very good chapter on where to draw the physical boundary - hands off and clothes on. It's a conservative line, but still allows you to sit down and talk with someone.

[61. BDB said the following at 2:11 PM on Feb 20:]

61

Louise #27 wrote:

>>Comment 2, if anyone saw the actual interview did Bristol Palin actually "sneer" that abstinence was unrealistic?<<

Sorry, wasn't referring to Bristol. One of my relatives sneers that it's unrealistic. I need to avoid discussing these kinds of things with them when visiting for Christmas.

[62. IMO said the following at 2:29 PM on Feb 20:]

62

"I have to say that getting married young just to avoid premarital sex is an insanely bad idea!"

Well, duh!

If you are just dating somebody who you are sexually attracted to but don't necessarily see yourself marrying...well, then don't get married. Cut off the relationship. There is no point in dating that person.

I think this is where the 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 school of thought applies to: If you are dating/courting somebody who you are see as marriage material and are struggling hard in the 'burning in lust' category, then why not get married? That makes perfect sense.

[63. Heather Koerner said the following at 2:48 PM on Feb 20:]

63

Matt from DC:

I refuse to be beaten in my alliteration. We must find a way.

sharing paired with accountability (both not p words). I share weekly with my SmallGroup about dates.

How about ...

#5) Personal accountability

Also, if I don't know which way to go, how to make a certain decision, I think about the two or more courses of action and which I would rather explain to her father.

I like that! How about ...

#6) The Papa Principle: We remember that even if a young woman doesn't have an earthly father to answer to, she has a Heavenly Father.

I don't see how being alone with my girlfriend and holy is not possible.

I'd just answer that something can be possible, without being probable.

After ten years of marriage, my hubbie and I still have the "no lunch alone with a member of the opposite sex." Can we not trust each other? Can we not trust ourselves? Would it show maturity to push the boundaries rather than to erect them?

I think we can trust each other. But we've decided that the maturity is in protecting each other. In our hyper-sexualized society, we've found there's no need to add any straws to the camel's back.

I hope your date goes well. Ever since Christina (in green)'s wedding, I've been itching for some more good news from our readers!

[64. EconNicole said the following at 2:49 PM on Feb 20:]

64

I think that Bristol, in part, has a point. Abstinence is completely unrealistic apart from Christ. From my understanding she is referring to overall teenagers that it's unrealistic. The only way I have ever found it to be realistic is when I had a strong relationship with Christ. I fell away from that for awhile and I fell into sin with my then boyfriend. Several years ago. Now, I think she may be a Christian (I don't judge a person's heart) but perhaps at that point in her life she wasn't having the type of relationship with Christ either or just made a mistake. We all sin. This one just has very large very public consequences.

Also, about the waiting to marry thing, the point where it becomes extremely difficult is when you and a guy are going to get married, but your parents don't think a year together is long enough and ask for two years before you get married. Trust me, when someone is going to be your future husband (I would marry him tomorrow and already have the dress) waiting is extremely hard. So maybe think about that when you're a parent and insist on your child dating someone longer. Maybe... just maybe... a year is long enough.

[65. BDB said the following at 3:03 PM on Feb 20:]

65

It's probably "safer" to be alone for those for whom touching is not a "love language." For some people, when temptation is "rubbing them on the arm," their reaction may not be to think, "Hey, she's interested!" It may be, "I don't know you, why are you touching me?"

Sitting and talking about politics and philosophy isn't nearly as risky as making out in a dark room. You can get to know people better that way. I read once that in successful marriages there is 90% agreement on religion and politics. Well, it's pretty hard to have a serious discussion around a bunch of people who think politics is boring and they just want to have fun. Conversation about important things requires quiet and few interruptions.

[66. BDB said the following at 3:09 PM on Feb 20:]

66

Interestingly, the local Christian radio station is running a vignette from Dr. Dobson suggesting being engaged for at least a year, in addition to time spent dating. One wonders whether stretching things out becomes part of the problem.

[67. Bethany said the following at 4:11 PM on Feb 20:]

67

I think we should distinguish between what is "realistic" for believers, who have the power of the Holy Spirit living within them, and what is "realitic" for the vast majority of non-Christian young people.

This is my beef with abstinence-only education. A lot of people ARE going to have sex, and it's okay by me if our public policy reflects that fact. The impact of parenting/church community is paramount in the life of a young person, not what the teacher says in health class.

[68. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 4:14 PM on Feb 20:]

68

Abstinence is so much more than just not having sex. I think when we look at abstinence as just not having sex we make it more unrealistic than if we look at it as a way of living. By just trying to avoid sex you're setting yourself up for a fall in this area. Abstinence has to involve every area of your life and your relationships with the opposite sex. That is the only way that it can be realistic.

Obviously, for believers there is command in Scripture to abstain from sexual impurity that should be motivating us. But, if we just take the command and try to follow it in our own strength we can't do it. It requires that we be in a relationship with God where we are allowing Him to tranform EVERY aspect of our lives. As all areas of our lives are transformed, then abstinence becomes realistic - although still requiring work.

The biggest thing I have foind in personal experience is that you have to know your own boundaries. And they could be different for each person. It takes very little for some people and more for others. You have to be aware of your own desires and what starts you moving in that direction. And then you have to decide that you're going to stop before you get that far. I don't mean setting your boundary right at that point and trying to stop there. I mean setting your boundary before you even get that far, so that you can and do make the choice to stop.

Abstinence is realistic, but it's not easy, especially not in our sex-saturated culture. I know it's possible. But I also know how easy it is to fall in this area.

[69. JuliestD said the following at 5:40 PM on Feb 20:]

69

If you live life in American culture, then no, abstinence is not "realistic." If however, you reject this world and worldliness and are willing to not play games with the little slips that the world tries to lure you with, then YES it is do-able.

I was 29 and a virgin when I married last year. My husband was 34 and also a virgin. We committed both before and after marriage to living lives as citizens of Heaven, not of America. We give to America what is due her, we do not disrespect her, but at all the points where modernity clashes with our intent to remain separate and pure (and separation used to be always thought of as an integral part of purity) we cast off America.

Our home is Heaven. Not America, nor any other country of this world. We honor God with all that we have to this end. This is what we wish to teach our children, should God bless us with any.

[70. BDB said the following at 5:41 PM on Feb 20:]

70

I really do think that the emphasis in the church on "Abstinence" is directly related to the phenomenon of men not taking "initiative," too. So often it's presented as if people just trip on the sidewalk and fall into sin. Not taking initiative is a very effective way to avoid falling into sin. If you're waiting for a "burning bush" before asking someone out, it may be a very long wait - but consequently one also won't find oneself in compromising situations. Never taking initiatve is not an effective way to approach marriage. But neither is telling people to date just like the world does but stop at this line here...

[71. Craig M said the following at 5:54 PM on Feb 20:]

71

There's a big difference--like it or not--between men and women on this. Many, many women--even Christian women--look askance at a guy who's 30 and a virgin. They wonder what's wrong with the guy. This has probably always been true; almost every culture has felt that way to some degree. Doesn't change the nature of right and wrong, but does change the relative strength of the pressure weighing on individual people. Libido is only one part of the equation. Constant pressure to "be a man" is a significant part too, even though contra Christianity.

They did a study of American birthdates and marriage dates in the 1750's through 1770's recently, and discovered that the MAJORITY of marriages were followed by a birth within six months. So do the math--the standard has never changed, and the reality of living up to it hasn't changed either.

[72. farmer Tom said the following at 6:01 PM on Feb 20:]

72

I was going to compliment some of you on your very wise and insightful comments. But I was afraid I would leave someone out, so to all of you, excellent stuff, with a few minor exceptions.

Matt, have fun, but I also would highly recommend the make it public policy. When my wife and I were dating, we struggled the most with purity when we were alone, me especially. I simply found it to easy to think about her sexually when there was no one else around.

Now that we are married that is a good thing. We get alone and I start thinking about that. But when we were dating that was a huge struggle.

For the record, we were still virgins when we married, but we struggled greatly the last few months.

"I have to say that getting married young just to avoid premarital sex is an insanely bad idea!"

What we are really saying here is that delayed adolescence, delaying marriage for education/career advancement, and dating while trying to do these things is simply foolish. If you are actively dating, then you should be considering marriage as the natural end of that action. If you believe that you must/have too delay marriage for what ever reason, don't be dating.

I can't find it but someone mentioned kissing in this thread, and I had previously mentioned Paul's command for a man not to touch a woman. During Valentines week I read this article: Kissing Study

So early research evidence points to the fact that the human body reacts to kissing by the release of hormones in the body which lead to increased levels of arousal, and attachment. Kissing leads to sex. Maybe not the first, second or third time, but the act of kissing is a prelude to the sex act.

Dudes, keep your lips off of the lady until you have a license.

[73. farmer Tom said the following at 7:24 PM on Feb 20:]

73

69. JuliestD,

AMEN

[74. Ted Slater said the following at 8:13 PM on Feb 20:]

74

Craig M. (#71), you wrote:

They did a study of American birthdates and marriage dates in the 1750's through 1770's recently, and discovered that the MAJORITY of marriages were followed by a birth within six months.

You'll need to provide an attribution before I'll believe that statistic; I'm kind of funny that way. I did find an article (an excerpt from the book Domestic Revolutions by Steven Mintz, Susan Kellogg, which was published in 1989), that implied that certain populations in New England during that time had increased premarital sex:

By the middle of the eighteenth century, parental influence over the choice of a spouse had sharply declined. One indication of a decline in parental control was a sudden upsurge in the mid-eighteenth century the number of brides who were pregnant when they got married. In the seventeenth century, fathers--supported by local churches and courts--exercised close control over their childrens' sexual behavior and kept sexual intercourse prior to marriage at extremely low levels. The percentage of women who bore a first child less than eight-and-a half months after marriage was below ten percent. By the middle of the eighteenth century, the figure had shot up to over forty percent.

... but that doesn't support what you said. Not being contentious, Craig M., just wanting to be confident about what the truth is.

[75. Adam said the following at 8:18 PM on Feb 20:]

75

IMO,

I think this is where the 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 school of thought applies to: If you are dating/courting somebody who you are see as marriage material and are struggling hard in the 'burning in lust' category, then why not get married? That makes perfect sense.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9 is talking about widowers and widows, and isn't even dealing with singles. It is talking about a situation where someone is used to having sexual relations with their spouse, and then their spouse is no longer there. If, in that situation, you still have that burning desire for your spouse, but cannot satisfy it because they are dead, you should remarry. Paul assumes that in verses 2-4 where he specifically commands married people to have sexual relations, and thus, it only flows naturally into his argument in 7:8-9.

Again, there is a problem with this idea. If you cannot control yourself before marriage, what are you going to do when you are married, and you are put in a situation where you are tempted to commit adultery? How are you going to avoid it if you have not learned self-control?

God Bless,
Adam

[76. BDB said the following at 8:24 PM on Feb 20:]

76

One practical thing - I might have even heard it from Mr. Dobson once - is to make your home THE place for the neighborhood kids to come. It means investing in a house big enough to have the teenage friends of your kids over for a BBQ, maybe a game room. By making your home the place to be, you get to know your kids' friends. And when those friends go to high school with your kids, those young men will already know you take a direct interest in your daughter's well being.

It's the friendly version of just happening to be cleaning your gun when you first meet the guy who's interested in your daughter...farmer Tom can probably speak to that better than I can.

[77. BDB said the following at 8:41 PM on Feb 20:]

77

CraigM (#71) wrote:

>>Many, many women--even Christian women--look askance at a guy who's 30 and a virgin.<<

No doubt these are the same women who would be freaked out if a guy told them he'd been praying for a godly wife and thinks it might be her...

[78. Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D. said the following at 9:40 PM on Feb 20:]

78

Bethany (#67), those who scoff at abstinence-only education would never push "safe smoking" education, or "safe drink driving", because people are going to smoke and drink-drive anyway. Rather, the current "safe sex" rubbish tells kids that they are just evolved animals who can't control their animal urges.

Dr Thomas Sowell’s classic book Vision of the Anointed shows up the deceit of those who pushed for "values-free" sex "education", as his close friend Dr Walter Williams summarizes:

In the early 60s, Planned Parenthood and other groups convinced the nation there was a “crisis” in teen pregnancy and venereal disease. They got Congress to give them our money to sponsor sex education (read: indoctrination) classes, often showing films to junior high school students depicting hetero- and homosexual couples engaged in sex; teenage birth control clinics were set up and condom distribution programs started.

Was there a crisis in the first place? Since 1950, teenage fertility rates had been declining as were venereal disease rates. By 1960 syphilis and gonorrhea infections were less than half of what they were in 1950. We all know the story after “sex education”. Teen pregnancy rose from 68 per thousand in 1970 to 96 per thousand by 1980. Venereal disease rate skyrocketed 350 percent between 1965 and 1978.

[79. Craig M. said the following at 12:57 AM on Feb 21:]

79

Ted--you're right, I should find the article. But to be honest, I read it a while ago and can't for the life of me remember where. So take it with a grain of salt, everyone.

[80. Jo said the following at 2:27 AM on Feb 21:]

80

Renee 41, some great points, but I have to disagree with this paragraph:
"If you insist on letting your children date- they will have sex. If you allow them to go out alone- they will have sex. If you let them stay at each other's house alone, or with other friends, or their no-good siblings, they will have sex."

It's just not true. I did all of those things frequently, and here I am as a 26 year old virgin. I go out with guy-friends, I spend time alone with them, one even stayed the night at my flat for practical reasons once. Circumstances don't make people have sex, choices do.

I agree with Dani in 43 - a guy who is living with his girlfrield should certainly NOT be a worship leader.

BDB in 70 - another brilliant point.
"So often it's presented as if people just trip on the sidewalk and fall into sin."

I totally agree. I would go further, and say that we make too much of a big deal about it being 'difficult' to stay pure. Yes it is sometimes difficult, and it is I think more difficult for some people than others. Circumstances do play a part - obviously if you're in a relationship, that makes it trickier than if you're single! But it isn't the barely attainable goal that many make it out to be. Can't we find a better balance between "It's gonna be tough" and "You absolutely can achieve it"?

[81. Leah said the following at 6:14 AM on Feb 21:]

81

rushncap (13) - I'd like to know how you know so much about Christian history, especially the sexual side of things. As Christians we are not here to tell non-Christians how they must live and to 'make' them abstinent. If we can show them that's a good lifestyle, then excellent. But our priority is introducing them to God and showing them his immense love. It's only once they are convinced of that, that understanding and following his commands becomes the #1 priority.

Victoria (39) - just because the people around you are being impure does not mean being pure is unrealistic. There are LOTS of people remaining pure, therefore, it is realistic. It's also very unfair to say 'most' Christians take their faith lightly just because the Christians you associate with do. If your church is so lax that it allows its worship leader to be living with his girlfriend, you should question the church's morals and the importance it places on the bible, and perhaps even leave.

I am part of a leadership team for our church's primary school youth group. Our coordinator is relentless in making sure we not only live as role models, but that we don't do anything that appears otherwise. One of my friends who used to be part of the team often had her boyfriend around quite late at night and very early in the morning. He would take her to work when she started at 6am. Our coordinator would sometimes question her about this; he didn't know, he'd just drive past and see the boyfriend's car in the driveway at 5:30 in the morning or midnight. (SHe did still live with her mother). He pointed out that this was undesirable; if parents from the church saw this, it would be an easy assumption that the boyfriend is spending nights at his girlfriend's place- not an image we wanted parents to be having of their children's youth leaders. My friend became so indignant and "sick of all this 'accountability' stuff" that she quit, and even left the church because she felt the coordinator had 'rubbished' her in front of the rest of the leadership team. (Not true; he was actually the most respectful I've ever heard him be of someone who's made a bad decision). She in turn dragged her boyfriend away from the church too (she told me he was quite willing; he told me otherwise) and they've not joined another church since and now are actually living together.

I really think the situation you described is demonstrative of a leadership who is not holding the leadership below it accountable. It's not demonstrative of "everyone is doing it".

Matt (38) - I understand your desire to be able to have some "at home" time with your girlfriend. And I do think that's ok. But please, please, do NOT think it will be just as easy to remain pure inside your house as in a cafe having brunch. My now-husband and I were fortunate in that we both still lived with our families while we were going out. We still did stuff we definitely shouldn't have, but the knowledge that anyone could come through the door at any time stopped us going "the whole way", or to the "point of no return". You will not have that knowledge. BE AWARE OF THAT.

[82. Louise from Chicago said the following at 5:59 PM on Feb 21:]

82

Comment 81, I can understand why that particular young woman left that leadership team and church.

I know you people believe in avoiding "the appearance of evil" but the presence of an automobile at someone's house early in the mornings when someone starts work at 6 AM and the auto owner gives the person a ride...that seems a little too extreme to me.

Does she not own a car? And if so, should she start to take a cab to work? But then might people think she was having an affair with the cab driver?

And, if the co-ordinator didn't know the particular circumstances but felt he should speak to this young woman about it, he should have done so in private.

No excuse, IMO.

[83. Leah said the following at 8:12 PM on Feb 21:]

83

Renee (41) said If you insist on letting your children date- they will have sex. If you allow them to go out alone- they will have sex. If you let them stay at each other's house alone, or with other friends, or their no-good siblings, they will have sex.

Wow. You don't have a very good opinion of parents, do you? Or their kids?

I dated from the age of 17 (I'm now married to him). We went out alone together. While I was still at school, there were several times I spent the night at friends' places- a whole group of us, say 7-10 people, guys and girls. I never had sex. None of my (non-Christian) friends had sex before finishing school except for 1, even though most of them had dated.

Come on, don't have such a low opinion of people.

[84. JuliestD said the following at 10:45 PM on Feb 21:]

84

Thank you Farmer Tom -- I appreciate your affirmation. I always enjoy your comments as well!

[85. Tehilah said the following at 6:31 AM on Feb 22:]

85

I'm 32 and a virgin. Though in some melodramatic moments I thought it was unbearable, it hasn't really been all that difficult to avoid sexual intimacy before marriage. I credit my parents mostly for instilling strong personal convictions on the matter at a very early age.

How? First, God's Word is a clear and powerful tool in teaching abstinence. But there are also some practical ways to make abstinence work.

Here are some ideas:

1. Explain sex early - my mom explained the mechanics of it to me when my friend's sister was born. I was 6. It demystified the physical act of sex and I was never cravenly curious about it after that. After all, if parents know all about it... to a teen it's not that cool anymore.

2. Create a safe place for teens to hang out en masse - in your home. At our church we discourage dating before the age of 18, and give the teens plenty of opportunities to hang out in chaste environments and enjoy one another as sisters and brothers. Teens complain and regularly raise the "holy kiss" question, but it seems to work pretty well.

3. Encourage your daughters and sons to develop strong same-sex friendships as teens. Best friends fill the need for heart-intimacy, especially in young girls, and reduce the risk that she will try to fill that void with the attention of a guy (which tends to have sexual strings attached). My brother has a regular group of guys that he hangs out with and does (terribly dangerous and adventurous) things with and they all hold one another accountable and out of trouble.

4. Use teachable moments - My mom would turn off the TV if there was some sexually questionable material and instead of saying "that's bad" she walked us through the real life repercussions of the on-screen action. So, I learned that premarital sex didn't lead to lifelong relationships, but to broken hearts, secrets, lies and guilt, teen pregnancy, sexual diseases, etc. Similarly, pointing out headlines that have to do with the messed up social lives of celebrities can turn teens off to promiscuous behavior.

5. This really worked for me - object lessons. Use several different colors of play dough to illustrate what happens to the heart when you have sex. Merge two clumps together in one spot, then rip them apart (first sexual experience). Do so with a few different colors and your daughter will get the mental image. If she wants to enter marriage with a clean and whole heart, she won't "mix" it with other people's.
This next one will raise some eyebrows - but I happened to look in a photographic atlas of skin diseases when I was a teen, and the photos of sexually transmitted diseases where THE most effective deterrent for me. Incidentally, a smoking demonstration in high school similarly completely removed any temptation for me to smoke. The teacher simply lit a cigarette attached to a bag with a coffee filter inside. The black tar stain on the filter was the most foul thing I ever smelled. No way did I want that in my lungs.

6. Get teens involved in Pro-Life - Having to argue against abortion not only educated me early on about teen pregnancy and baby development, it exposed me to the heartache and seediness of uncovenanted love.

Teens and young adults aren't stupid, and God's injunctions are not only protective of His glory, but also conducive to good health. Abstinence is not only possible; it's actually far easier than dealing with the mess of premarital sex. I cut to the chase early and make it clear that physical intimacy is not an option and consequently have never found myself on the "dark and cozy couch" trying to remember my values.

[86. Tiffany said the following at 8:13 AM on Feb 22:]

86

I agree with Louise (82). No wonder that poor girl left the church - it's amazing how legalism drives people away...

[87. BDB said the following at 2:03 PM on Feb 22:]

87

Late in my college career, when this discussion came up with a bunch of non-Christians, I simply asked them how many of them had had to sit with someone and help pick up the pieces when they realized they'd made a mistake. For some reason, that instantly took the wind out of their sails.

It's kind of like the person who would always tease me because I didn't drink. I finally just told her that there were a couple of alcoholics in my family tree, and since there is a theoretical possibility that there is a genetic component, I decided it wasn't worth the risk. I asked if she thought I should roll the dice. She said no.

[88. IMO said the following at 2:23 PM on Feb 22:]

88

Tiffany, what part of:
"She in turn dragged her boyfriend away from the church too (she told me he was quite willing; he told me otherwise) and they've not joined another church since and now are actually living together."

did you not understand?

Yea, poor girl. Now living in sin with her boyfriend.

[89. Leah said the following at 6:40 PM on Feb 22:]

89

I'm 27, a virgin, and dating for the first time. I've heard it all, seen it all, read it all, etc. from the Christian community since I was at least 10 years old.

Is abstinence realistic? Yeah. Just don't have sex.

If you put yourself in a situation where you *might* be tempted to have sex, then is it surprising when you do? Uh, not really!

The "Four P's" sound great - and that's pretty much what me and my boyfriend are following, but I do caution anyone to watch out for the number one opposing "p" - PRIDE.

I could list a zillion Scriptures right now to explain why that particular "p" is worth avoiding. Honestly it boils down to the fact that as humans, we are frail, and have no match against our own flesh, let alone the wiles of the devil, in our own strength. It doesn't matter what rules we make, what we tell ourselves, what plans we devise - if we do not keep an attitude of humility, we are at a grave risk to fail.

I know I could blow it at any time. So I keep God as the center of my world and pleasing Him as the utmost priority. I consider every interaction with anyone else (even my boyfriend) in the light of how pleased God would be with my words and actions. The Bible says over and over again that God gives grace to the humble, and I am trusting that His grace is going to carry me through.

And it certainly makes abstinence easy.

[90. Texas Craig said the following at 10:24 PM on Feb 22:]

90

Dr. Sarfati said:

"those who scoff at
abstinence-only education would never push "safe smoking" education, or "safe drink driving", because people are going to smoke and drink-drive anyway. Rather, the current "safe sex" rubbish tells kids that they are just evolved animals who can't control their animal urges."

Great points! I am going to be using that comment. It really is so true how we don't hear anyone throwing in the towel and talking about how to smoke safely (just a few cigarettes a day, use filters, use lower nicotine cigarettes... yada yada yada) or drive drunk safely (get a really small car so you are less likely to really hurt someone other than yourself....). :-)

I seriously am going to get some mileage out of that idea...

[91. Theo K said the following at 1:20 AM on Feb 23:]

91

There should be no question on whether chastity is probable/possible, whatever.
Those that are Christians will hear the Word of God and obey.

Those that will not obey are, guess what, not Christians. As simple as that. Listen to this:
“Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.” – Ephesians 5:5-6

So let no one deceive you, no matter what people profess, if they are living an unrepentant sexually immoral lifestyle, then they are, on the authority of the Bible, not Christians. Christ has not transformed their hearts and desires, they have not been born again (and no loopholes allowed…)

[92. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:36 AM on Feb 23:]

92

My mother is constantly getting on my case about how "introspective" I am.

She thinks I get too self-involved and think too much when it isn't necessary.

Sometimes she's right...other times, I think it helps me understand circumstances a bit better.

I was 22 when I did "it". There were a lot of things that led me to giving in, all of which occurred in the 4 years preceding that.

Remaining sexually abstinent was a cake-walk when I wasn't dating and was virtually shunned by the majority of my peers in church. I wasn't subjected to Christians not remaining pure and there was no one around to tempt me.

I usually knew when a friend became sexually active, because she'd stop talking to me...I guess they thought I'd judge them.

My mother never really talked about abstinence...I'm not quite certain what it was that triggered that desire to remain abstinent - but I'm pretty certain it was DEFINITELY a result of my faith.

I knew that I had been conceived out of wed-lock and how much that contributed to an identity crisis when I was 13 - is my dad really my dad? Adolescence is hard enough trying to figure out your identity without questioning your parentage...I didn't want to have that as an issue for my children.

It wasn't until I was in high school that I really got much of a "sex-ed". I knew the mechanics prior...how hard is it to figure out when you know your own anatomy and you have 3 little brothers? Or walking in on parents. You figure it out eventually even without the "sex ed" of birds and the bees.

My sex-ed was taught by a conservative...she skipped condoms and only discussed STD's and REAL sexual health =p Again, I didn't need an education on condoms because just existing at school was enough of one.

But the real problem - the VERY real problem - was poor self-esteem, a friend with lies on his tongue to justify his own actions that I didn't understand, and my believing them.

I ended up making choices that kind of "degraded" me without giving anything up when I turned 18. I wanted to be kissed - that's harmless enough, right? And it was. But there were other things that weren't harmless that I had been fooled into believing were "ok".

By the time I was 22, I was lauded for being a virgin - but I felt dirty and used and not worthy of that title. And I hated it when people would give me undue attention due to that. Throw into that dating a guy I thought I was going to marry.

In a last ditch effort to discard a title I didn't think I deserved, I slept with him.

I think that the HARDEST part of being a virgin is how it has people treating you differently because of it - and not in a good way. Respect is good. Don't get me wrong...but praising you for it or avoiding you because you are "holier-than-thou" when that was never your intent is cruel and hard.

I think that learning to love God and keep him above all else and being raised to deal with the SIDE EFFECTS of that would have been helpful. I never learned how to deal with the "outsider" effect. Especially since people who I thought were just as gung-ho about God as I was kept me on the outside, too.

Learning how to live without genuine community, learning how to live with others and stick to your values, and learning patience in ALL things would be the best medicine for remaining abstinent.

And OPENNESS with your parents! I was 20 years old before I talked to my mother about what had occurred between age 18 and then. If we had had that conversation before I was 18, I think things would have gone so much better in that regard. And unfortunately I continued to talk to her only when things got so bad I couldn't handle it anymore rather than in a preventive way.

I'm still learning how to talk to my mother about sex...because the issues don't go away once you're married (they are just different). I think teaching your children that its ok to talk to them about questions and not falling into the societal belief that its a taboo subject with parents would go a LONG way, as well.

But that requires some overcoming of squeamishness with parents, too.

[93. anon said the following at 9:22 AM on Feb 23:]

93

Louise from Chicago,

I saw the interview with Bristol Palin on tv. No, she was not sneering. I agree with one of the other commentors on this post, that it seemed to me she was referring to abstinence being unrealistic among people in general, not among Christians.

[94. Tiffany said the following at 9:25 AM on Feb 23:]

94

IMO,

You don't think legalism in the church helps drive people away? Sometimes away from the faith itself?

I'm not condoning the choices this girl has since made. But that doesn't necessarily mean that her worship leader (or whatever the position he held) wasn't wrong, too.

[95. John said the following at 9:45 AM on Feb 23:]

95

"I also don't think that solutions like "get married earlier" are going to help either. If you cannot control yourself before marriage, what makes you think that you will be able to control yourself after marriage?"

Right, the solution is NOT "get married earlier". The solution is the church needs to disciple believers, parents and their children, to mature spiritually, emotionally and psychologically more in line with our physical maturation AND more importantly, God's word.

Telling two young immature believers to get married just so they can have sex is stupid. But...it's better they do that than fornicate. Though, of course, those aren't the only two choices.

"I have to say that getting married young just to avoid premarital sex is an insanely bad idea! I was 32 when I married and yes i was a virgin. I married "late" because I wanted to marry the right one and not just anyone. A lifetime of being with the wrong person is not worth it."

Where do people keep coming up with this false dichotamy?

Anyway, "a lifetime of being with the wrong person", depends largly on the attitudes and choices of the people involved in the relationship.

Why are you people so fatal?

"What we are really saying here is that delayed adolescence, delaying marriage for education/career advancement, and dating while trying to do these things is simply foolish. If you are actively dating, then you should be considering marriage as the natural end of that action. If you believe that you must/have too delay marriage for what ever reason, don't be dating. "

Amen!

"Again, there is a problem with this idea. If you cannot control yourself before marriage, what are you going to do when you are married, and you are put in a situation where you are tempted to commit adultery? How are you going to avoid it if you have not learned self-control?"

Adam, way off buddy. What it is saying, and I think a commentor already stated this, is that if two marriable people are burning for each other (naturally burning), then get married, don't put yourself under undue temptation.

We're not talking about a ragin perv who just wants sex. We're talking about normal affections that are very strong. There's no sense in allowing them to get out of control and cause us to sin.

Let's wear our thinking caps now.

[96. anon said the following at 10:02 AM on Feb 23:]

96

I was a virgin into my late thirties. I did manage to save myself for my wedding night. While I have no regrets for myself, and feel good about the choice I made, I do not want my child to have to be a virgin for that long. I like what Hilary Clinton told her daughter, "No sex before 21." I'm telling my child not to make choices that will postpone marriage, to try to marry sooner rather than later. Unfortunately, this also means that I will tell my child to stay away from born again, evangelical Christians, as the "Gift of Singleness" doctrine does have a tendency to perpetuate singleness.

[97. Victoria said the following at 12:31 PM on Feb 23:]

97

To everyone who commented on my situation of a young man on the worship team who is living with his girlfriend: I think they moved in together only about 2 months ago, and it being a large church, I don't think any of the pastors know about it. I'm torn about what to do, I don't want to 'tattle' on him and come across Pharisee-like. I think someone should confront him about his sin privately before taking it up to the elders, but I don't think that person should be me (he's a single man, I'm a married woman, we're not close friends, etc). I don't think our pastors would allow him to serve in ministry if they knew. I'm just disappointed about his choice. Also, to the woman whose parents think dating for a year is not long enough to get married: my father proposed to my mother (who was 18 and just out of high school) FOUR DAYS after they met. They were married 2 months later. Their families were supportive. Dr. Dobson would certainly not approve! I wouldn't recommend doing this, BTW. Although they were both mature believers, my dad honestly says that he didn't have a 'spiritual' reason for proposing to her after 4 days, like "I knew this was the one that God had for me" - he plainly states that my mom was the hottest woman he'd ever seen and that he just HAD to marry her. So there you go... Like I said, I wouldn't recommend for anybody to do this! But they are still married after almost 30 years. Also, to those who say "If you can't control yourself prior to marriage, getting married won't help", I would just like to say that I really struggled with lust all my life, especially when my husband and I were first dating. It was the biggest obstacle in my spiritual walk with God. I was also really worried that because I hadn't mastered my lust before getting married, I would still continue to struggle. Well, praise God, ever since getting married it has never been an issue again! Having a legitimate outlet for those urges solved the problem. I think that's exactly what Paul was talking about. Lastly, thank you to everyone who testified about their commitment to purity. It was awesome to read your testimonies, and very encouraging. When my husband and I got married, we felt like the last virgins on the planet, even (sadly) among Christians. I'm so glad to hear that this wasn't true.

[98. Adam said the following at 1:01 PM on Feb 23:]

98

John,

Adam, way off buddy. What it is saying, and I think a commentor already stated this, is that if two marriable people are burning for each other (naturally burning), then get married, don't put yourself under undue temptation.

Actually, I would say that the phrase "naturally burning" is an oxymoron. The apostle Paul said as much:

1 Thessalonians 4:4-5 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;

Likewise, Jesus said:

Matthew 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I think what we have here is a lessing of sin. The standard is no desire for sexual relations before marriage, period. If you desire sexual relations before marriage, then you are engaging in sin.

The other problem is that Jesus himself said that the problem with sin is in the heart. The solution to sin in the heart is not "get married," but, rather, "change your thinking." I remember one time hearing of a cult that believed that sexual relations were wrong. When some of their memebers came out of the cult, they had difficulty having sexual relations because of what they had formerly believed.

Now, I am not in any way shape or form suggesting that what this cult believed is correct, but what if we used this principle for good rather than evil? What if people literally believed that sexual relations before marriage was wrong in the same way that the people in this cult believed sexual relations in general were wrong? What if it happened to the point were, even if people in the church attempted fornication, they could not do it, because of the way they had been raised up?

The problem is that we do not train up our children in this fashion. We do not teach them wisdom and discernment that is after the fear of the Lord. If we trained our children up to fear the commandments of God in the same way that this cult trained up their children to fear the teachings of the cult, we would not have this problem. However, we do, and telling them to get married may just be exchanging adultery for fornication.

God Bless,
Adam

[99. Jo said the following at 1:19 PM on Feb 23:]

99

Christina, #92:
Thank you for writing that.

[100. Ashley Harris said the following at 2:08 PM on Feb 23:]

100

Adam,

You said, "If you desire sexual relations before marriage, then you are engaging in sin."

Do you really believe that desire is sin?

I would say that sexual desire (not lust) is something that can motivate us toward marriage.

[1. Collin said the following at 6:08 PM on Feb 19:]

1

I agree, the point is that God expects purity, so it's not really up to us to make judgements on whether or not it's a "realistic" goal. Besides, God gives us no charge that is unrealistic. "No temptation has seized you except that common to man...and God will provide a way out"- Corinthians I believe.

That said...I can say that living in purity is definitely possible. If you're a parent, I think the key is to acknowledge to your kids that most people fail in this area, but emphasize to your child that his experience will be different. I'm a 23 year old guy, and I remember clearly how my dad raised me in this area. From the time my brother and I were in first grade my dad had really frank discussions with us about sex. (Granted, they weren't so detialed then, but they increased in depth as we matured). It's kind of funny to think back on now, but I remember him saying so matter of factly when I was 7 that when I was in high school I would be dating beautiful girls, and we'd be kissing, and they would want to have sex with me...and at that point I would say no because I was saving it for the person I'd marry. This was definitely a self-fufilling prophesy that came true many times in high school! Litterally, from the time I was young in elementary school I was being prepared for those crazy moments in backseats and basements that otherwise might have been the end of purity. It gave me the sense that I had control to direct where my relationships with girls would go physically. I'm really thankful for how my dad handled the subject so openly with me, and set up positive expectations about the reality I was walking into, but the power I had as an heir of Crist to overcome.

[2. BDB said the following at 6:11 PM on Feb 19:]

2

Yes, a lot of people do sneer that obedience to God is impossible. I feel particularly bad for people whose parents are the ones sneering that abstinence is impossible - way to leave your kid feeling like they should just give in to pressure.

One of the most memorable things I ever heard was actually from a janitor in high school. He said he once met a girl's dad before going out with her. The DAD told him that he only had to "meet him," and that he didn't care what he did with his daughter - and the janitor noted that pretty much everyone had "tried her on for size." But the main point being that how her father treated her obviously had a huge impact on her choices in life.

[3. BDB said the following at 6:32 PM on Feb 19:]

3

As for practical comments, start with alcohol. I've heard that 80% of date rapes happen when one or both parties are under the influence. But even if everything is friendly, being sober makes it a lot easier to tell when it's time to get up and go home.

Readers of Elisabeth Elliot are familiar with her admonishment to women to not share their feelings for a man until after he proposes. That might produce an interesting reaction - guy starts waxing poetic about how she excites feelings in him, and she responds that no man has a right to know her feelings until after he proposes marriage.

Ultimately, people purpose in their heart about whether or not they are going to avoid sin. I've come to believe that those who decide firmly they will not take the risk end up setting their boundaries so far out that people assume they're not interested. Effective at avoiding sin, less effective as an approach to marriage.

Recently some parents at my church started expressing concern that dating now presumes premarital sex. I think they're starting to understand that asking singles if they are "dating" isn't necessarily the right question.

This is not a new phenomenon. When I was in college, a number of non-Christian women addressed this issue by declaring that they "didn't date anymore." It short-circuited individual pressure while still allowing opportunities for other social activities ranging from dinner to going to a play. It does solve the problem of how to "date a lot of people" without the associated risk of falling into sin.

I don't think teaching "abstinence" alone is a good idea. I think teenagers should be taught to begin praying about how God wants them to approach marriage. Not the princess-wedding, but really seeking God's will as to whether marriage is part of God's plan. If people look at "dating" as an approach to marriage, they will quickly recognize people who are only out for a good time.

[4. Daniella said the following at 7:05 PM on Feb 19:]

4

I must say that abstinence is definitely not the norm anymore. When I tell people I'm still a virgin, they are shocked and ask me so many questions like they've never seen a 20 yr old virgin in their lives.
Bristol said that it's not realistic. Sure it's hard. Especially having a boyfriend I'm very much in love with for a year. But it's my reality. And it's important to me. Not only because it's God's law but the bad things that premarital sex can do including unwanted/unplanned, pregnancy, STD's, trust issues, breaking the sanctity of marriage, single parents, broken families. The list goes on and on.
But most teens and young adults don't understand and many don't care because "everybody's doin it"

[5. kyle. said the following at 8:17 PM on Feb 19:]

5

most people seem to find out how close to "the line" they can get without crossing it. this only leads to continual temptation which increases the odds of failure. when my wife and i were dating, we talked often of the fact that the goal was not to find the line and get close to it, but to know where the line was and get close to God. by setting conservative boundaries early and focusing on the endgame, we were ultimately very successful.

[6. Carol said the following at 8:30 PM on Feb 19:]

6

That's an unfortunate thing for Miss Palin to say. I think abstinence would be more realistic if young men and women wouldn't put themselves in situations where having sex is easy (for example, making out in a dark place). I think that teaching girls wise ways to behave toward the opposite sex will really help the ones who intend to stay sexually pure. All of us have the ability to fall in the emotion of the moment.

[7. Mac said the following at 8:43 PM on Feb 19:]

7

Heck yeah! Nothing is impossible with God! My advice? Don't wait so long to get hitched, and don't even date anyone that's not as committed to purity as you are. Spend a lot of your "alone time" in public places.

My hubby and I made it to our wedding day with a funny sort of strategy: when it seemed so frustrating that we just didn't have an outlet to express how deep our love had become, we took a Snickers break! (Yeah, the candy bar.) After all, "Nothing Satisfies Like a Snickers!" It seriously helped lighten the mood. (We had to laugh at ourselves with our pathetic little candy bars.) And it was a nice way to distract a one track mind, while giving ourselves a little reward for keeping it together.

[8. Emily said the following at 9:13 PM on Feb 19:]

8

I personally know other believers who are sexually active and single. I wonder why they are in that position and why I am not. I have abstained with two brief relapses since I became a believer eight years ago.

I wonder if these friends of mine have given up on being abstinent until marriage. Sometimes I wonder if they assumed that since they were not going to get married, they might as well just "cash in" and engage in sex.

Before anybody questions their belief - these are people who truly know the Lord and are believers. But like the rest of us, they are human sinners.

So if you are near or over thirty and you are nowhere near meeting your future spouse and you don't know if you are going to be "chosen" to walk down the altar- what are some realistic measures you can take in order to honor God and abstain?

Personally, I am content with remaining abstinent because God has provided me with a lot of guidance and a strong community. But I am asking so I can be used to help my friends and community.

[9. Dani said the following at 9:27 PM on Feb 19:]

9

Thanks for this post, Heather. When I saw Bristol's interview, and that comment in particular, it really bothered me. One, because I wish that she and her fiancé would get married already. And two, because abstinence *is* realistic.

My boyfriend and I have been together over three years; we started dating during our junior year of high school. We struggled for a while with being sexually pure, until (finally) an older guy at our church started holding my boyfriend accountable. Since that time (around September, maybe?), we haven't kissed, and let me tell you, there is nothing I recommend more than that.

Please understand me, I'm not saying that kissing is sexually impure. But, it's so difficult to draw a line between a "good night" and something beyond that. Drawing the line before our lips even touch is much, much easier!

I still struggle all the time with keeping my thoughts pure, but my boyfriend and I are proof that remaining abstinent *is* realistic.

[10. Rachael Starke said the following at 9:37 PM on Feb 19:]

10

Okay, soapbox time.

How I wish and pray there would be so much more talk in youth groups and college and young adults ministries about the glorious reality of God's covenant relationship wtih His people than there is about the picture of that reality that God calls marriage and, by extension, sexual purity.

Bristol Palin was right, in one (small) sense. Preaching abstinence in a vacuum will never ultimately work. It may help more people hold off on having sex for a while. But it won't save anyone's soul.

We need to talk more about how the pursuit of sexual chastity brings many secondary blessings, because God is good and wants the world to know it.

But we need to talk even more than that about the God whose greatest blesssings are found in new life in His Son, and in the gift of His Spirit. HE is the only One who can help His children live sensibly, righteously, godly and, yes, chastely. If you have His Spirit, He can help you in your battle, just as surely as He can help me in mine.

If you don't, you've lost the battle you probably don't care about fighting anyway.

[11. farmer Tom said the following at 10:21 PM on Feb 19:]

11

Making abstinence a realistic in our lives is not really that difficult IMO.

First, Paul said in I Corinthians 7,

"It is good for a man not to touch a woman ."

In modern English, no Christian guy should ever put his hands, lips or any other body part on a female until he is married to her.

Christian women need to abandon the secular world's ideas about establishing relationships and dating, portrayed in books, movies and on the idiot box.

Parents need to teach their children the Biblical purpose, pattern and privilege of the sexual relationship in marriage.

Churches must provide a place where Biblical sexuality is clearly taught, defined and celebrated.

Do these things and abstinence is attainable. The problem is that too many men, women, parents and churches fail to do their part.

More than a few of the posters at this blog can't even make up their mind if sodomy is wrong, let alone fornication. So someone somewhere is not doing their job of defining what Biblical sexuality is, and where it is to be practiced.

[12. Texas Craig said the following at 11:09 PM on Feb 19:]

12

For abstinence to be realistic (and I think it is and can be), we must also recognize the harm that continuing to push marriage back later and later in life does to that possibility. Up until the last 100 years or so, most people married in their teens or very early 20s. In that situation, it was more plausible to abstain from sexual conduct until marriage. Now that many people are waiting until they are in their mid or late 20s before marrying, it is MUCH more difficult to abstain.

From a practical standpoint, it is much easier for a 14-year-old to think "I will likely be married in the next 5 years, so I can hold out and remain pure during that time" than to think "I have to remain pure for 10-15 more years."

While I understand the pitfalls to marrying young in our society, there is also much to be said for it--at least when it comes to sexual purity.

[13. rushncap said the following at 11:16 PM on Feb 19:]

13

Christians have been trying to "make abstinence realistic" for about a millennium and a half now. They have failed for that whole millennium and a half. Can someone explain to me how you plan to succeed now?

[14. Hannah C. said the following at 11:36 PM on Feb 19:]

14

Honestly, going partly from personal experience and partly looking at the culture around me - I don't think it's realistic to expect people who date for five or six years before even getting engaged, let alone married, to stay abstinent. I'm sure it's possible, but I know it has to be hard, and I don't know if I personally could do it. A lot of that has to do with setting limits and sticking to them, as well, and where you set the limits has some effect on things.

But in general, I'm not sure how practical it is to insist on both a late marriage (for a couple who's been dating for a while) and abstinence before marriage. (And no, I'm not saying Boundless or anyone espouses this viewpoint. It's just my viewpoint; perhaps I've put the two together wrongly.)

[15. Nicole said the following at 12:23 AM on Feb 20:]

15

Thank you for this post! I volunteer with teens and it can be so discouraging to find out how many of them have had or are currently having sex, even amongst the teens that are "churched/Christians". It has been difficult to know how to talk to them in an appropriate and God-honoring way.

[16. Whitney H said the following at 3:01 AM on Feb 20:]

16

My mom and I were talking about this right after the interview came out and she actually asked me if I thought abstinence was "not realistic."

The truth is, Bristol has a point and entirely missed the point!

In our world, where teens and young adults are saturated with sexual pressure and input, I think it's unrealistic to expect a young adult to remain abstinent merely because they're Christian and "know better." From my own (bad) experience, you have to truly believe in it for it to speak louder than the culture!

In that sense, I think abstinence and a healthy diet are equally "unrealistic" in our world. That doesn't mean we should just give up and eat the doughnuts!

[17. Erin said the following at 4:58 AM on Feb 20:]

17

I'm looking forward to seeing what other people can say about the issue of making abstinence realistic.

I'm afraid I don't have much experience to advise anyone. I grew up in culture where marriages were arranged and you didn't socialise with the opposite sex, so staying abstinent was a given (well, for me anyway, but not for many of the local girls. The local boys were too in awe of my father - the local missionary - to even look at me most of the time).

By the time I returned home I had it all so ingrained into my subconcious that I just never got into any tempting situations.

But now I'm begining to mentor some younger girls and am at a total loss as how to guide them. Somehow I don't think anything I have to say to them will seem realistic.

[18. Tara said the following at 6:20 AM on Feb 20:]

18

I'm married now but what helped my husband and I tremendously was to focus on God's purpose for sex. By focusing on the beauty of how God meant sex to be whenever temptation came to our individual minds we would brush it away because we didn't want to ruin what was coming. Our young adult's Bible Study did an in-depth look at Song of Solomon and that's a great place to start learning what God-designed erotic love looks like. And it's definately worth waiting for.

[19. Carl said the following at 6:51 AM on Feb 20:]

19

Being 24 and single sucks!

[20. Tera said the following at 6:52 AM on Feb 20:]

20

Dannah Gresh has an event for mothers and their daughters that addresses modesty and God's truth about beauty, as well are othere resources. Check out www.purefreedom.org.

[21. Michela said the following at 7:25 AM on Feb 20:]

21

This is so true. I have been rather disillusioned this past year in regards to purity. I made a commitment to purity when I was thirteen, and by the Grace of God I have been able to continue that commitment (I'm 23 and unmarried). However, I have been to three weddings in the past year where the bride was pregnant. All three weddings were for couples who professed to be strong believers.

I think it is sad that we as Christians are failing in this area as much as the secular world. I admit that it is really difficult to keep our thoughts and actions pure- something I truly did not understand until I was in a serious relationship myself. However, God's law remains and it has been set in place to protect this gift that He has given us.

I completely agree with Dr. Mohler. It is not a question of whether it is "realistic" or not. Of course it's not "realistic" in our culture today- not with such a hyper-sexualized media. Rather, it is one way that we need to set ourselves apart from the world.

Some ways that have helped me to make this a reality in my life are really watching how I dress (I know- we hear this all the time but it is true that how we dress as women affects the men around us!), being extremely careful about the things that I watch (no Sex and the City for me...), and being intentional in my relationship with my boyfriend about striving for purity.

[22. Matt from DC said the following at 7:27 AM on Feb 20:]

22

So, anyone know "some real strategies to make it happen"?

I'm all ears. I'm going to the National Gallery of Art this weekend with my girlfriend and then making dinner for her at my place.

[23. Matthew said the following at 7:29 AM on Feb 20:]

23

As a young man who desires wholeheartedly to remain as pure as possible before marriage, I have to say that it's really, really hard. Even when you have a supportive Christian family, good friends, a Bible-believing church, and accountability-- it's hard, and I have definitely screwed it up before. Josh Harris gave a great series of talks on purity (you can find them on the Covenant Life Church podcast), but at the end of the day it's like most other aspects of obedience: praying, reading the Bible, confessing our sins to one another, and seeking to make Jesus our greatest treasure. There is no program, no gimmick, and no secret that will make it easy somehow-- just a radical love for Christ that translates into thorough obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is realistic-- and faithful!

What is not as realistic is expecting a huge bunch of people that don't have the power of the Holy Spirit to remain abstinent... and that's a much stickier wicket.

[24. Ambrosia said the following at 7:35 AM on Feb 20:]

24

Hmmm...ok!
Abstinence is not realistic? Personally I agree with what Dr Mohler is saying, wether it is realistic or not, as christian singles, we need to MAKE it realistic.

Where exactly does reality fit into the christian life? I think at times, it is an excuse not to have faith; just like the word "luck". Was it realistic for Peter to think he could walk on water? Or was it realistic for a man with a dead daughter to think some prophet(Jesus) could bring her back to life or to think that when we die, we shall arise with Christ. All these things are not "realistic" to the human mind but faith, perseverance and the power of Jesus Christ makes it possible. Reality? puhlease! Give me Faith anyday.

[25. kaj said the following at 8:12 AM on Feb 20:]

25

BDB -- Re: Comment #3

If a woman is not supposed to "not share their feelings for a man until after he proposes" per Elisabeth Elliot, what is the difference between that and expressing interest in a man, or appreciation for acts of kindness a man does for a woman?

[26. IMO said the following at 8:25 AM on Feb 20:]

26

"Christians have been trying to "make abstinence realistic" for about a millennium and a half now. They have failed for that whole millennium and a half. Can someone explain to me how you plan to succeed now?"

I have succeeded. I have friends, both male and female, that have succeeded. And as you can see on here on Boundless, there are also those that have succeeded.

So what's your point?

Oh yea I know, you just lumped all of us under the Christian umbrella.

Congrats on your stereotyping skills, man.

[27. Louise from Chicago said the following at 8:38 AM on Feb 20:]

27

Comment 4, several years ago I was a twenty year old virgin.

Comment 2, if anyone saw the actual interview did Bristol Palin actually "sneer" that abstinence was unrealistic?

Or did she merely "state" that opinion?

I read the interview transcript in the link provided by Ms. Koerner, but it's hard to judge the attitude of the interviewee.... so if anyone actually saw the interview, was there a "sneer?"

[28. obewan said the following at 8:46 AM on Feb 20:]

28

I think people are missing the spirit of her comment and that she did not word it well. What she perhaps meant is that it is unrealistic for abstinence to work for EVERYONE and that we would have ZERO Christians pregnant out of wedlock.

In her interview, she did say that she wants her experience to serve as a “warning” to others of the consequences of unprotected sex, and she also mentioned that abstinence is the only surefire protection.

I am all for abstinence, and that has been the practice in my life, but I realize even Christians who "abstain" are prone to failure at some point. When I was in High School, there was a dating couple in the youth group at the fundamentalist church I attended. They were leaders. They were serious Bible thumpers. Their Bible was at the top of their book stack every day. They were a very vocal and outspoken witness in every class. They were "abstaining" and preaching purity to the other kids all the time. Well guess which couple got pregnant out of wedlock in senior year? They were both honor students destined for college with a free scholarship ride, but he had to marry her and join the Navy to support his new baby. I won't comment about what it did to their witness or about the gossip and mocking that ensued. Even "strong" Christians can fail in this area, so I think the bottom line is that it is "unrealistic" to expect "abstinence" to result in zero Christians pregnant out of wedlock.

[29. Rachael said the following at 8:48 AM on Feb 20:]

29

I hope to have more collected thoughts by the time I might end up in a situation where the topic comes up with a young woman.

Perhaps one thing that might help prevent promiscuous behavior is to share stories about real people's feelings of regret about 'going too far'.

As far as premarital intercourse itself, I bet one tactic that might work for women is to scare them about the specifics. But then that fear might be carried to the marriage bed.

I wonder also if it's possible to be overexposed to mindsets regarding relationships with the opposite sex. Perhaps there should be a lot of education about love and forgiveness. I think the input shouldn't be MERELY abstinence, abstinence, abstinence and virtually nothing else. Ideally there should be a broader Biblical focus than that -- teachings on love, forgiveness, humility, and selflessness.

[30. Heather Koerner said the following at 8:49 AM on Feb 20:]

30

Matt from DC (#22):

I like the 4 "p"s:

1) Print it. Write down what your standards are. Set your boundaries before you are even in the situation.

2) Plan it. Do not leave gaps in the evening. Start to finish, you know what you are doing and where you will be.

3) Public. Keep it public. Period. I've done some research on this :) and everyone I've ever talked with has not had sexual intercourse with people watching.

So, Matt, seriously, just think about whether having her over to your house alone is wise. Maybe a picnic dinner on the Lincoln Memorial steps? Maybe another couple (how about an older, Christian possible mentor couple) to join you and when they leave, she leaves?

4) Prayer. Bathe your date in prayer. And not just "Lord, help me keep my engine in second gear when I've got the accelerator to the floor" but "Lord, help me see her as someone's future wife. Help me see her as you do. Give me wisdom. Give me the desire to protect her. Help me to love her as you do, wanting what is best for her."

Blessings! Any guys have other advice?

[31. Rachael said the following at 8:53 AM on Feb 20:]

31

#10 Rachael wrote:

"If you have His Spirit, He can help you in your battle, just as surely as He can help me in mine."

I like that. The God who.........the God who........The God who..........can surely help me, too. We believe in the omnipotent God.

[32. Catherine said the following at 9:23 AM on Feb 20:]

32

Abstinence is realistic- I have quite a few friends who have kept their coomitment to purity all the way to the altar (all married after 25). I made it to 23, which was rare at my college. What led me that far? A close relationship with god, good parents who gave me good advice and just enough freedom, and no really serious relationships. What led me away? Making friends with girls ( and through them men) who did not share my values, the lack of a good church community, my feelings of being left behind, and not being able to see the end of my waiting. What has led me back to purity? Reading good books ( real sex,sex for Christians, sacred marriage) that renewed my spiritual strength, christtian women I met who lived chastely ( and dated), a good church and a very good boyfriend who taught me to love better. Modesty is also essential. Practicing this taught me my true value. Being seen as a person and not a body can be difficult when you are single. If only I could talk to that 23 yo now....

[33. John said the following at 9:40 AM on Feb 20:]

33

Texas Craig #12,

Wow, I can't believe it, but we actually agree about something.

"For abstinence to be realistic (and I think it is and can be), we must also recognize the harm that continuing to push marriage back later and later in life does to that possibility."

THIS IS THE MOST CRITICAL POINT!

All other areas are secondary to this fact. Pushing marriage AND maturity back only puts singles under more and more pressure and more and more temptation.

# 14 "Honestly, going partly from personal experience and partly looking at the culture around me - I don't think it's realistic to expect people who date for five or six years before even getting engaged, let alone married, to stay abstinent."

Exactly why this should not be the course of action. The church should be raising mature believers who are ready to marry far closer to their physical maturity then it is presently doing.

Staying pure 5, 10, 15 years after sexual maturity IS unrealistic and becomes more unrealistic the farther out you go.

It is a sin the church is perpetuating. Instead of influencing culture, the culture has and is influencing the church. "Christians" put themselves before God's word.

"I have to graduate high school first, then college, then get a job, then find myself (in the Lord, hey, it has to be "christian" self actualization after all), etc. Then I'll get married"

"Christian" parents actually teach their kids this crap, whether explicitly or implicitly.

If you burn, GET MARRIED!

[34. Alden said the following at 9:59 AM on Feb 20:]

34

To respond to certain posts below, I don't see how it is the case that staying abstinent before marriage is "impractical," much less "impossible." As a college junior at a top university, it's never been an issue--it is not until one puts herself into a position where becoming intimate with someone is a temptation that remaining a virgin is difficult.

Which of course begs the question: why would one put himself into that kind of a situation? Truth of the matter is this: we want to give in. We put ourselves into positions where it would be difficult, if not impossible, to stay pure because we really don't want to be pure.

Abstinence is hardly "impossible." It is difficult in a sex-saturated society, and it is difficult if we put ourselves into positions where having sex before marriage is a temptation. But if we follow the advice of scripture to flee, to run away, from sexual immorality (1 Cor. 6:18), if we avoid situations where we are weak and unable to be self-controlled, then sex, though enticing, is not a temptation before marriage.

What we must deal with is not "making it possible" to remain pure before marriage, but getting people, especially students, to want to be pure and act accordingly. How is this done? Only by the regenerating power of God's mercy and reflection upon the Christ's atoning work, the desire to please Him which surpasses all other things.

[35. Keb said the following at 10:02 AM on Feb 20:]

35

*grumble* I'm 29 in 2 weeks, and still a virgin. It's pretty darn realistic to ME.

I'm doing it because I believe God's rules are right, and that I owe it to my future husband and children, should I ever be fortunate enough to have either. Doesn't mean it's easy, doesn't mean it's fun, but it's VERY real.

[36. Jordan C from Canada said the following at 10:04 AM on Feb 20:]

36

I think we need to put the emphasis on the benefits of remaining pure. We have to make it something young people (like me!) choose to do. If I may be frank, I lost my virginity at quite a young age; I was in the 9th grade, she was in the 8th. Prior to that, I felt that I "had" to be pure, but I didn't really understand why it was important.

I'm almost 19 now, (at university, etc. where a LOT of people are having sex) and I've been chaste since I was 16. Only this time, it's a choice I've consciously made, rather than have superimposed on me. The purity that I have now is comforting, welcome, and fulfilling. The "purity" I had before felt tyrannical and I didn't feel happy in it.

Also, I'm not sure how mainstream this belief is, but when I decided to rededicate myself to purity at 16, I did a lot of praying with my parents, pastors, and close friends to "regain" my spiritual purity. Like I said, I'm not sure how many believe in that, but I definitely feel like it has worked for me.

[37. khalil said the following at 10:06 AM on Feb 20:]

37

Maybe I have missed it somewhere in these comments, but you know, there is a choice involved...as with every sin we commit. We can choose to sin and embrace it or we can choose the things of God and do our best to remain pure. This doesn't make it any easier, temptation (feelings, emotions, sensations, pleasure, etc) can be a difficult thing to overcome. I think we forget at times that we are called to a higher standard.

From a personal perspective I have found it hard at times to remain pure. Being a virgin at 31 hasn't been easy, esp. when temptation is staring you in the face. As others have reported when people find out they're virgins at a certain age I have encountered those that ask me if there is something wrong with me for choosing abstinence. I don't discount God's power and presence in all this, but I have to remember I have a choice. I can engage willfully in a sin with a person who is willing to be a partner in crime or I can choose self control and give respect...to her, myself, and ultimately God.

[38. Matt from DC said the following at 10:19 AM on Feb 20:]

38

Heather,

Thanks for your help.

Print it- We've already set our boundaries, but I don't see the point in writing them down. Do you mean to keep them in my pocket at all times? I have a lot of different pants/jackets ;)

Plan it- I think this is the most helpful point for my present situation. I just have a big question mark after dinner. Of course I have stay within the boundaries on the plan, but I don't have a concrete activity just sitting and talking. If I came up with something and a way to end the evening it would be beneficial. And yes, this is my responsibility to have a plan for the evening as planning is a part of leadership and leadership a key component of Biblical manliness.

Public- This is the one I don't agree with. I'm open to hear more persuasive arguments than couples have sex when they're alone. I imagine that at some point on future "dates" I may do something like have brunch on Sunday in town, come back to my house to hang around, read together, and then go to the evening church service. While I like the idea of double dates and intend to do them I don't see how being alone with my girlfriend and holy is not possible. It is a risk I'm comfortable taking for now. We'll see how things go. Is it wise? It is as wise as having a glass of red wine.

Prayer- Oh, how good to hear these things said by someone else. I have been bathing our relationship in prayer even before she accepted my invitation to intentional dating. You are right when you say that she is someone's future wife. I would not want to spoil anything for them in their happy union by stealing it now; even if the he of "their" is me.

Another thing that I do that dovetails nicely with asking God to transform my thinking is sharing paired with accountability (both not p words). I share weekly with my SmallGroup about dates. I have three groups of relationships with unbelievers who are close to me asking how I'm keeping up my commitment to sexual purity. Also, if I don't know which way to go, how to make a certain decision, I think about the two or more courses of action and which I would rather explain to her father. There will likely come a day when we discuss my relationship with his daughter and I do want to bring him a good report.

Thank you again for your advice. I now have a direction for my biggest challenge this weekend. Oh, and if I don't come up with anything better I'll politely kick her out and drive her home at 10 PM ;) Finally, I would love to discuss the third p - public - with any and all takers.

[39. Victoria said the following at 10:23 AM on Feb 20:]

39

Unfortunately, I do think abstinence is unrealistic. In my own experience, I know very few Christians who waited until marriage. One of the worship leaders in my church (early twenties) is living with his girlfriend. My college roommate, a professing Christian who was at one point committed to saving her first kiss for the wedding day, ended up living with her boyfriend for a year before they finally got married. And those are just two examples. This is jaded, but I do think that young Christians are just not committed to purity anymore. It was easier back in the day when premarital sex was taboo for everyone, Christian or not. Now people just go with the culture. I am terrified to raise children in today's society. And don't tell me to just trust God -- what, all those Godly parents of kids that fell into immorality weren't trusting God enough? God must be so grieved when He sees how lightly some (or most) take their faith.

[40. Andrew said the following at 10:29 AM on Feb 20:]

40

Kaj,

Yeah, what is up with that Elisabeth Eliot quote? She wants girls to not share feelings for a guy until after he has proposed?!?! How is the guy supposed to know if the girl is really interested in him. Its hard enough being a testosterone filled single man trying to commit to abstinence before marriage. I think that girls should show more appreciation for guys who do repect them. Too often Christian girls don't. (Of course not all Christian girls are like that, but I had a couple bad expereinces) Especially when I see non-Christian girls that are "so in love" with their boyfriends depite that fact that the guys treat them like crap.

[41. Renee Linnen said the following at 10:59 AM on Feb 20:]

41

It doesn't matter if you set guidelines and don't watch your children. Think of it in economic terms. We have accountants/auditors to watch the books, but they were crooks so we made the sec and other quasi-government groups, but they were crooks. Basically we can trust, but we must verify.

If you insist on letting your children date- they will have sex. If you allow them to go out alone- they will have sex. If you let them stay at each other's house alone, or with other friends, or their no-good siblings, they will have sex.

You need to know their friends, set rules and give consequences, know when their last class is over and how long it takes to get home, make them come right home after school, only allow friends over when you are home, only allow them to be friends with the children of your own friends (they will have your values) and look at their phone and internet usage.

They are children not adults, they don't have a right to privacy, and they are fallen, so they will fail. Its your job as a parent to at least make sure it does not go on underneath your nose.

That was one of the reason's I did not vote for Sarah Palin. She had no control of her kids.

[42. Victoria said the following at 11:04 AM on Feb 20:]

42

Matt (#38): I commend your desire to remain pure before God. Your obedience is a great testimony! That said, I have to strongly agree with Heather on the public thing. What you have in mind is a terrible idea. When my husband and I were dating, we found it a huge struggle to stay pure, despite our best intentions. We would attend church together in the morning, grab lunch, then go back to my dorm room to hang out or watch movies -- then before you know it, we were passionately making out. Didn't matter that we spent the morning earnestly seeking God. Didn't matter that we sincerely promised one another that it wouldn't happen. There's only so long a person can hold out, despite their best intentions. We decided from then on to always leave the door to my dorm room open to the communal hallway. Voila, all of a sudden the temptation factor went way down! The fact that we weren't really alone anymore helped us stick to our boundaries. If this woman will become your wife, you have the rest of your life to cuddle on the couch together alone with a good book, or after a romantic dinner. I strongly urge you instead to spend as little time as possible alone in your respective homes, but rather plan more public dates. You can get a cup of coffee or tea at a place like Starbucks or Borders and sit there talking for hours, very intimately, while still being in public. About your glass of red wine analogy: very few people develop a serious alcohol problem from enjoying the occasional glass of wine. But many, MANY Christians fall into temptation after a romantic, intimate evening alone together. Just ask anyone.

[43. Megan said the following at 11:05 AM on Feb 20:]

43

Here's when abstinence becomes unrealistic:
-when you fail in your daily walk with Christ
-when you choose to please self rather than God
-when you have one foot in the world and one foot in the world
-when you're alone with someone from the opposite sex
-when you fill your mind with stuff from the world around you (ie music, TV, internet, etc)

Growing up, our youth pastors never mentioned anything like this to our youth group. It's sad when the church and more importantly parents do not teach its youth about sex because it leaves the door wide open for the world to teach them about sex. First, parents need to get it together and start enforcing rules. The church needs to prepare parents and youth for this.

Here's my issue - stop saying "save yourself for your wedding night". Is that even biblical? It's biblical, and a straight-out commandment, that you abstain from sex until married but when did it become about the wedding night? When did we lose sight that this is about God? The phrase "save yourself" sounds like it's a choice to abstain. Also, we don't sin against each other (ie our future husband), we sin against God. We can do something wrong against someone else and as Christians we are expected to seek forgiveness from them. So if you haven't saved yourself for your husband, it's not about him, it's about sinning against God.

I think we've skewed the issues here. I'm not at all saying that premarital sex won't bring problems to a marriage, but that's not why we abstain; we abstain because God has commanded us to.

I just wish someone would have said this to me.

[44. Carrie (the original) said the following at 11:06 AM on Feb 20:]

44

The 27 y/o virgin will confess that abstinence is unrealistic. I don't think anybody can "choose" abstinence and think that it will never be an up-hill battle. You only realize how "un-realistic" things are when you are in the midst of said battle. This is what separates the men from the boys (or, um, women from girls).
It's when in the battle to remain pure and chaste that one realizes the need for the Triune God to grant them grace for the moment. I think if we stop focusing on the possibility/i> of life-long celibacy and we cry out for grace for the moment, things are a little easier.
Sometimes there is actual physiological pain with the committment to remain pure/chaste, but Scripture tends to describe sanctification in some pretty violent, painful terms.

[45. Tiffany said the following at 11:09 AM on Feb 20:]

45

Sorry, folks, I'm going to disagree with most of you here.

I would much rather my child make the mistake of having premarital sex than marry young just to have sex.

I know...shocking, right? But if I had married my high school boyfriend because we wanted to have sex, I'd be stuck in a LIFELONG commitment to a thoughtless, cheating jerk. Yes, I regret my decision to have sex with him. But to imagine missing out on a lifetime with my now current husband, a man who stayed physically pure for me and has offered me grace that echoes the grace of God for my past mistakes - that's something too horrible to imagine.

[46. Tami said the following at 11:15 AM on Feb 20:]

46

I agree with a lot of what's been said here, so I won't re-hash.

But I did want to call attention to Rachael Starke's comment (10), as I don't hear it stressed very often. I absolutely agree that the central focus of many youth (and young adult) groups is not Christ or the gospel, but is dating and/or sex. When those topics are discussed, sure -- the people come in droves! But it reinforces the implication that dating/sex is the *only* issue worth discussing. Also, while well intentioned, it brings about the "polar bear effect" -- if someone is constantly telling you to not think about sex, pretty soon, that becomes what you do indeed think about. If thoughts preceed actions, then developing a chaste and abstinent lifestyle comes first from thinking right thoughts. If the mind is filled with things other than dating and sex, it becomes a whole lot easier to do that. So in short (heh), perhaps many groups need to de-throne sex/dating as the topic du jour, and re-throne teaching about Christ, if they want kids to start adopting a right attitude and a healthier perspective towards dating/sex. It might not be the "popular" choice, and it might not attract as many attendants, but those who come will, likely, be stronger, and the teaching will reap greater fruit.

I'm not saying we should ignore the topic -- but perhaps the time has come for a bit of *de*emphasis. "My" high school youth group talked about dating so often it turned me off -- I stopped going largely because it seemed that was *all* they ever talked about, and because I wasn't dating, it just made me feel isolated. (And incidentally, the church *never* talked about the Holy Spirit. At all. So obviously, there was a major imbalance of teaching going on.) Twenty years later -- the group is going chapter-by-chapter through various books of the Bible. And those kids are *growing*. I feel blessed to see that, but I confess I'm a tad jealous, wishing they had that when *I* went through! I think what's great about that method is, that you cover *all* ground, and if you go through a book like 1 Corinthians, you're going to hit on *all sorts* of topics that are totally relevant to today's teenagers, and yet they're placed in scriptural context so that no *one* topic is overemphasized.

[47. Tara said the following at 11:33 AM on Feb 20:]

47

"Finally, I would love to discuss the third p - public - with any and all takers."

"Public" was a dating priciple I held to when I was single. Once I got into an actual relationship I found we were alone...alot. And nothing happened. Seriously. We never "came close", we didn't cross boundaries. My now-husband had a place of his own and I would go over by myself and we'd sit on the couch and watch movies. I actually found my biggest struggles with impure thoughts happened when I was by myself in my own bed at night.

There is importance to keeping yourself public as much as possible (we all are, afterall, human)but you don't have to be legalistic about it either. When God's values start to become your values you start to hold to them even when no one else is watching. But having God's values also means you will put in those saftey measures that will help prevent you falling outside His Will. Like, my now-husband and I could spend a few hours alone together but we already had a no-kissing rule and I made it very clear to him where his hands were and weren't allowed to go. lol I also had the philosophy that if we couldn't do it in front of my parents we couldn't do it all. But ultimately, we both believe in shaping our characters after that of Christ and certain behaviours and mindsets are "out of character". Doing the right thing slowly becomes natural because it's who you are as a person. It's all about being transformed.

And I want to encourage those who are jaded in thinking everyone falls in the area of purity. It's not true. I know many, many people--myself & my husband included--who made it to marriage as a virgin.

[48. Mary said the following at 11:40 AM on Feb 20:]

48

Sorry folks, but deciding whether or not abstinence is "realistic" is beside the point. God knows that apart from Him, we cannot conquer temptations of all kinds. I Cor. 10:13 is as solid as it was when Paul wrote it - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit! Does God honor His Word? Absolutely.

Jenny Schroedel wrote in a Boundless article called A SEASON OF CELIBACY: "Singleness is a circumstance, but celibacy is a choice. Singleness implies solitude, but celibacy is relational. Those who choose celibacy, for a season or a lifetime, enter into a covenantal relationship with God. Although many consider celibacy as the negation of something good — namely sexual relations and the deep physical, spiritual and emotional intimacy it implies — the traditional Christian understanding was more positive. Celibacy freed people to live completely for God and to follow Him to the ends of the earth as any devoted spouse would do."

CELIBACY IS A COVENANT WITH GOD! Just within the last year, that has revolutionized the way I view my "single status" with God! By the way, I do not say that lightly, because I am a 66 year-old always- single woman who still has a healthy (and very long-standing) desire for the intimacy of a Godly marriage, body, soul, spirit. Did I ever dream I would be 66 and still single? NO! Have I shouted at God about that and His words about sexual purity? YES - REPEATEDLY!

While we can choose not to eat, eventually we have to in order to satisfy physical appetite or we die. It is not that way with the sexual appetite! While it is strong, we do not die choosing to wait! Giving in to a temptation does not prove temptation's strength! Resisting it does! Apart from God's grace and mercy, it is an impossible task.

[49. Dani said the following at 11:56 AM on Feb 20:]

49

Victoria (#39):

If one of your worship leaders is living with his girlfriend and the pastors/elders haven't brought him under church discipline, you need to leave that church. It is the responsibility of church leadership to cut the yeast out of the dough, lest the whole loaf be leavened. (i.e. They need to rebuke the sinner or remove him from fellowship, lest the whole church be influenced by his sin.)

Perhaps you aren't meeting Christians who are pure because your church doesn't preach purity.

[50. Adam said the following at 11:57 AM on Feb 20:]

50

Hey Everyone!

I think there is an issue that is not being addressed in all of this. I don't believe that all of the tactical issues mentioned will help. Yes, if a person cannot handle kissing, or something else, then it is certainly right for those people to not do it.

I also don't think that solutions like "get married earlier" are going to help either. If you cannot control yourself before marriage, what makes you think that you will be able to control yourself after marriage? Even if you are married, you could get a secratary at work who will not take no for an answer. She will try to get you alone, and then start seducing you. If you have no self-control, then the marriage will be destroyed.

You see, the church is obsessed with these external things like marrying earlier, not kissing, etc. These will not solve anything, because they do not address the real heart of the problem, and that is the issue of wisdom and the heart. The book of Proverbs is the best in this regard. In chapter 2, Solomon is addressing the fact that we need to gain wisdom, and then it will keep us from certain things. In verse 16, Solomon specifically says that wisdom will keep you from the way of the adulteress.

You see, it is all well and good to do tactical things like not kissing if you struggle with that area, but it is never going to make a heart wise with discretion and wisdom. We teach children what is right and wrong in today's churches, but we don't teach them wisdom. We tell that it is wrong to have sexual relations before marriage, but we never teach them the discernment they need to avoid it. Instead, we tell them to get married young, and not kiss until marriage. Yet, when the heat is on, there is no substance there, and in a context where your desires are still more important that God's law anyway, who is going to care about man-made laws?

This is why it requires us to constantly be growing in wisdom. That is why I believe the church is going at this issue all wrong. True purity doesn't come from a "countercultural" list of do's and dont's. It comes from a heart that is seeks to gain wisdom from God which is based in the fear of the Lord. Without this growth in the fear of the Lord, and the wisdom contained therein, a person will remain simple, and will never be kept from sexual immorality. So, as long as the church puts its emphasis in the wrong place, yes, it will be unrealistic for teenagers to be abstinent. However, when churches start reconginsing that there is a fundamental difference between worldly wisdom and Godly wisdom, worldly discernment and Godly discernment, and they start teaching their children accordingly, then it will not only be realistic, but the norm.

God Bless,
Adam

[51. DannieA said the following at 12:14 PM on Feb 20:]

51

I'm 30 and still a virgin...of course I'm also one that does NOT need to have a man in my life. I've always gone with the thought process that if I'm dating someone and I can't see the relationship heading to the alter then the relationship ends and I have no qualms about it. I think many people just date for the sake of dating and not marriage and therefore the longer you are with someone the more chances there are of temptation. Unfortunately the men I've dated were either non-Christians or not marriage minded so I haven't stayed in relationships for too long.

[52. Brian said the following at 12:22 PM on Feb 20:]

52

Matt (#38),

I'll take you up on your offer: If the two of you are alone at your house, will there be a tendency for more physical displays of affection? In other words, are you more likely to sit next to her on the couch with your arm around her? What about kiss her? Is that more or less likely in the privacy of your home?

In my experience it's not that every time you're alone presents an opportunity for sex, instead I would say that every time you're alone presents an opportunity for growing more physically intimate. The closer you grow physically, the more likely you are to fail.

You have to be honest with yourself. When I was dating the woman who is now my wife, it was amazing how proficient I was at deceiving myself about such things. Do you honestly believe that the only alternative to "being alone" is "double dates"? Why not head to a cozy coffee shop? There you will be sitting across the table from her (a preferable position for her during conversations, I assure you).

I pray that you will make a wise decision.

[53. brx said the following at 12:30 PM on Feb 20:]

53

"Realistic" ?? do people really think about what they are saying when they use that word? In these cases, people are usually refering to current situations, statistics, cultural conditions and mindset. They are often talking about working with conditions as they are and not actually changing those conditions.

So, of course Bristol Palin is correct when she says abstinence is "not realistic at all." The human condition is such that left to our own nature and devices, we will tend to seek the most expedient means to our own pleasure!

Christians are called to live against their nature. Living chastely means reordering sex according to God's beautiful design - and it applies equally to single and married people.

Personally, I don't think the Church in general preaches enough about the details of sex in God's big design and we Christians don't talk about it enough with non-Christians.

Some key things that would be nice to see in the mainstream cultural understanding:

SEXUAL INTERCOURSE is the sacred 'signing' of a marriage promise to love and protect as long as you live. Sex without marriage is a lie and at least one party involved is being used like a cheap thrill-toy for an endorphin rush.

MARRIAGE commitment is a sacred symbol God gave us to remind us of His unwavering commitment to his people.

SEX is a sacred gift from God that represents the warm, intimate passion that God has for us in the covenant relationship with Him.

SEX employed anywhere else is only a temporary high that does more damage than good.

Like eating healthy, a life with sex ordered according to God's design -living chastely- provides a more sustainable good life - and good society.

CONDEMNING ADULTERY, if we really analyze and think about societal trajectory, is good for the healthy growth of a society. That's just one of the many pieces of wisdom in the Israelite's Law that was also praised by other nations when they heard about and seriously contemplated it.

Talk about these things in an excited and pasionate manner with non-Christian friends!

Grace, peace & adventure!

[54. mary kate said the following at 12:35 PM on Feb 20:]

54

i'm 29 and still single and celibate. i went thru some pretty tough times. but honestly, it's never been staying celibate that's been hard for me. it's been talking about being celibate and also, for a while, trying to stay pure. sex was always the 'do not cross' line. but i went through a phase where staying pure was something i didn't really think about.

it really annoys me when people like bristol talk about celibacy being unrealistic. what does that make me? a freak? a reject? i'm a very attractive, successful, warm and caring person. most worldly people would probably be shocked if they knew i was still a virgin.

during my 'less pure' time i learned some hard stuff about purity. i learned it was directly affected by my alcohol intake, the people i chose to spend time with, and whether or not i really wanted to do what god wanted or not. i also found out that a lot of things that the world and even newer christians think are harmless really aren't. spending the night with a guy (sleeping together but not sleeping together), spending a lot of time alone together alone late at night, and other things that many of my friends think are ok really aren't, at least not for me. i'll go out on a limb and say they probably aren't for most others, either.

renee, #41, i agreed with almost everything you said except this paragraph:
If you insist on letting your children date- they will have sex. If you allow them to go out alone- they will have sex. If you let them stay at each other's house alone, or with other friends, or their no-good siblings, they will have sex.

i dated, went out alone, and stayed at same sex friends' houses, and i never had sex. i think the key is to set and enforce limits, and know your own kids.

[55. Laura said the following at 12:37 PM on Feb 20:]

55

Victoria, if one of the worship leaders at your church is living with his girlfriend and your pastor is allowing him to continue... my advice is to find another church. Egregious, unrepentant, public sin is not to be tolerated among those who claim the name of Christ, much less among those who desire positions of leadership.

I think if we look at people who simply call themselves Christians, then of course chastity is unrealistic! But how absurd is it to assume that all people who call themselves Christians are actually people who have been made new creations in Christ? Completely absurd! But for those whose hearts of stone have been replaced by God, whose eternal condemnation has been reversed by Christ, it's completely realistic. We who are in Christ have the Holy Spirit, God's precious word, the body of Christ, and countless other spiritual blessings to ensure our sanctification.

Just because so-called "Christians" fail at abstinence (often because, as other commenters have mentioned, they're never really given a reason WHY they should abstain) doesn't mean we should feel compelled to ignore the frequent Biblical commands to live lives of chastity!

[56. Kate said the following at 12:50 PM on Feb 20:]

56

I am glad you started this discussion because the development and treatment of girls' developing sexuality (in secular and Christian culture) is one of the issues that I care most about!

I agree with BDB that education about alcohol is a really important part of this. And similarly to trying to get people to understand how alcohol turns off our inhibitions and makes us less able to think clearly... how it is a similar mindset once you are "in the moment" and "in the mood..." and it's not like once you start feeling all "shmoozy" you can say "oh well I've got to do it now" you can always still break away and say no and walk away, and in fact it is your responsibility to do so.

I think another thing to address with girls is related to empowerment. Teach them what is disrespectful behavior and to have the awareness and guardedness, as well as the confidence to identify it and say no to spending time with boys/men who treat them like that. Help them understand about males out to seduce them in a predatory purposeful way, as well as how otherwise well-intentioned males can be foolishly wrapped up in the mood too and they need to be guarded against both.

I think establishing conscious, spelled-out boundaries is a good strategy but should not be the only one. Because you also have to figure out how to follow your rules and what things may lead you to not follow them! We need to discuss the why's about how people end up having sex when they didn't truly want to... or why they want to when they should not be doing it.

Surely a lot of sexual temptation is related to foolish and sinful human hearts. But I think some of it is related to seeking legitimate needs to be met in wrong ways. Especially with the issue of physical touch (and emotional support to some extent). For many single adults, and even teens... they are never touched. We crave that touch and I believe if we are not being touched in appropriate ways, we will be especially thrilled by touching members of the opposite sex and more susceptible to following the sexual directions this can lead into.

So yes parents, grandparents, sibs, etc. should hug their teens on a regular basis even if they are awkward and whining about it! Give them opportunities to sit close to you and walk arm-in-arm (when nobody is looking!) or whatever. Hug your same-sex friends, bump into them, horse around, put a hand on their shoulder or an arm around them when they are sad, etc. (Of course I am not suggesting prolonged intimate/sexual touching here!)

Some teens and singles are lucky to be in families that are very affectionate or around a lot of kids to hug and hold and play with. But for singles who aren't, it could be a good idea to seek out appropriate forms of human touch and/or spend time with animals.

Lastly, there is that age-old advice about how idle times allow the mind and body to wander into bad things. To some extent, I was always less tempted when I was busy all day and tired at night, and/or largely occupied with other activities. It's so stereotypical that it's annoying, but I think it's actually true.

[57. Matt from DC said the following at 12:54 PM on Feb 20:]

57

Many thanks to all who have responded.

Brian, in response to your question about alternatives to double dating I would say no. I know how to do public dates with just the two of us. I mentioned double dating because that was a way that Heather suggested that I could still have her over to my house and maintain "public".

[58. Louise from Chicago said the following at 1:24 PM on Feb 20:]

58

Comment 54, from my interpretation of the interview transcript, I doubt Bristol Palin was insinuating that abstinent people are "freaks/rejects"...I think she meant abstinence is not a realistic expectation for EVERYONE.

That's just the way I read it though...and I did not see the actual interview.

[59. Becky said the following at 1:28 PM on Feb 20:]

59

I have to say that getting married young just to avoid premarital sex is an insanely bad idea! I was 32 when I married and yes i was a virgin. I married "late" because I wanted to marry the right one and not just anyone. A lifetime of being with the wrong person is not worth it.

[60. BDB said the following at 2:07 PM on Feb 20:]

60

kaj (#25) wrote:

>>what is the difference between that and expressing interest in a man, or appreciation for acts of kindness a man does for a woman?<<

I do wish she wrote a chapter on what "responding" looks like for a Christian woman. I do think some people take that advice and go further to the point where they don't respond at all. As other articles on Boundless prod men to not wait for a "burning bush" before taking initiative, I sometimes wonder if some women are waiting for a "burning bush" before they respond.

She has a very good chapter on where to draw the physical boundary - hands off and clothes on. It's a conservative line, but still allows you to sit down and talk with someone.

[61. BDB said the following at 2:11 PM on Feb 20:]

61

Louise #27 wrote:

>>Comment 2, if anyone saw the actual interview did Bristol Palin actually "sneer" that abstinence was unrealistic?<<

Sorry, wasn't referring to Bristol. One of my relatives sneers that it's unrealistic. I need to avoid discussing these kinds of things with them when visiting for Christmas.

[62. IMO said the following at 2:29 PM on Feb 20:]

62

"I have to say that getting married young just to avoid premarital sex is an insanely bad idea!"

Well, duh!

If you are just dating somebody who you are sexually attracted to but don't necessarily see yourself marrying...well, then don't get married. Cut off the relationship. There is no point in dating that person.

I think this is where the 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 school of thought applies to: If you are dating/courting somebody who you are see as marriage material and are struggling hard in the 'burning in lust' category, then why not get married? That makes perfect sense.

[63. Heather Koerner said the following at 2:48 PM on Feb 20:]

63

Matt from DC:

I refuse to be beaten in my alliteration. We must find a way.

sharing paired with accountability (both not p words). I share weekly with my SmallGroup about dates.

How about ...

#5) Personal accountability

Also, if I don't know which way to go, how to make a certain decision, I think about the two or more courses of action and which I would rather explain to her father.

I like that! How about ...

#6) The Papa Principle: We remember that even if a young woman doesn't have an earthly father to answer to, she has a Heavenly Father.

I don't see how being alone with my girlfriend and holy is not possible.

I'd just answer that something can be possible, without being probable.

After ten years of marriage, my hubbie and I still have the "no lunch alone with a member of the opposite sex." Can we not trust each other? Can we not trust ourselves? Would it show maturity to push the boundaries rather than to erect them?

I think we can trust each other. But we've decided that the maturity is in protecting each other. In our hyper-sexualized society, we've found there's no need to add any straws to the camel's back.

I hope your date goes well. Ever since Christina (in green)'s wedding, I've been itching for some more good news from our readers!

[64. EconNicole said the following at 2:49 PM on Feb 20:]

64

I think that Bristol, in part, has a point. Abstinence is completely unrealistic apart from Christ. From my understanding she is referring to overall teenagers that it's unrealistic. The only way I have ever found it to be realistic is when I had a strong relationship with Christ. I fell away from that for awhile and I fell into sin with my then boyfriend. Several years ago. Now, I think she may be a Christian (I don't judge a person's heart) but perhaps at that point in her life she wasn't having the type of relationship with Christ either or just made a mistake. We all sin. This one just has very large very public consequences.

Also, about the waiting to marry thing, the point where it becomes extremely difficult is when you and a guy are going to get married, but your parents don't think a year together is long enough and ask for two years before you get married. Trust me, when someone is going to be your future husband (I would marry him tomorrow and already have the dress) waiting is extremely hard. So maybe think about that when you're a parent and insist on your child dating someone longer. Maybe... just maybe... a year is long enough.

[65. BDB said the following at 3:03 PM on Feb 20:]

65

It's probably "safer" to be alone for those for whom touching is not a "love language." For some people, when temptation is "rubbing them on the arm," their reaction may not be to think, "Hey, she's interested!" It may be, "I don't know you, why are you touching me?"

Sitting and talking about politics and philosophy isn't nearly as risky as making out in a dark room. You can get to know people better that way. I read once that in successful marriages there is 90% agreement on religion and politics. Well, it's pretty hard to have a serious discussion around a bunch of people who think politics is boring and they just want to have fun. Conversation about important things requires quiet and few interruptions.

[66. BDB said the following at 3:09 PM on Feb 20:]

66

Interestingly, the local Christian radio station is running a vignette from Dr. Dobson suggesting being engaged for at least a year, in addition to time spent dating. One wonders whether stretching things out becomes part of the problem.

[67. Bethany said the following at 4:11 PM on Feb 20:]

67

I think we should distinguish between what is "realistic" for believers, who have the power of the Holy Spirit living within them, and what is "realitic" for the vast majority of non-Christian young people.

This is my beef with abstinence-only education. A lot of people ARE going to have sex, and it's okay by me if our public policy reflects that fact. The impact of parenting/church community is paramount in the life of a young person, not what the teacher says in health class.

[68. Tamara (from Canada) said the following at 4:14 PM on Feb 20:]

68

Abstinence is so much more than just not having sex. I think when we look at abstinence as just not having sex we make it more unrealistic than if we look at it as a way of living. By just trying to avoid sex you're setting yourself up for a fall in this area. Abstinence has to involve every area of your life and your relationships with the opposite sex. That is the only way that it can be realistic.

Obviously, for believers there is command in Scripture to abstain from sexual impurity that should be motivating us. But, if we just take the command and try to follow it in our own strength we can't do it. It requires that we be in a relationship with God where we are allowing Him to tranform EVERY aspect of our lives. As all areas of our lives are transformed, then abstinence becomes realistic - although still requiring work.

The biggest thing I have foind in personal experience is that you have to know your own boundaries. And they could be different for each person. It takes very little for some people and more for others. You have to be aware of your own desires and what starts you moving in that direction. And then you have to decide that you're going to stop before you get that far. I don't mean setting your boundary right at that point and trying to stop there. I mean setting your boundary before you even get that far, so that you can and do make the choice to stop.

Abstinence is realistic, but it's not easy, especially not in our sex-saturated culture. I know it's possible. But I also know how easy it is to fall in this area.

[69. JuliestD said the following at 5:40 PM on Feb 20:]

69

If you live life in American culture, then no, abstinence is not "realistic." If however, you reject this world and worldliness and are willing to not play games with the little slips that the world tries to lure you with, then YES it is do-able.

I was 29 and a virgin when I married last year. My husband was 34 and also a virgin. We committed both before and after marriage to living lives as citizens of Heaven, not of America. We give to America what is due her, we do not disrespect her, but at all the points where modernity clashes with our intent to remain separate and pure (and separation used to be always thought of as an integral part of purity) we cast off America.

Our home is Heaven. Not America, nor any other country of this world. We honor God with all that we have to this end. This is what we wish to teach our children, should God bless us with any.

[70. BDB said the following at 5:41 PM on Feb 20:]

70

I really do think that the emphasis in the church on "Abstinence" is directly related to the phenomenon of men not taking "initiative," too. So often it's presented as if people just trip on the sidewalk and fall into sin. Not taking initiative is a very effective way to avoid falling into sin. If you're waiting for a "burning bush" before asking someone out, it may be a very long wait - but consequently one also won't find oneself in compromising situations. Never taking initiatve is not an effective way to approach marriage. But neither is telling people to date just like the world does but stop at this line here...

[71. Craig M said the following at 5:54 PM on Feb 20:]

71

There's a big difference--like it or not--between men and women on this. Many, many women--even Christian women--look askance at a guy who's 30 and a virgin. They wonder what's wrong with the guy. This has probably always been true; almost every culture has felt that way to some degree. Doesn't change the nature of right and wrong, but does change the relative strength of the pressure weighing on individual people. Libido is only one part of the equation. Constant pressure to "be a man" is a significant part too, even though contra Christianity.

They did a study of American birthdates and marriage dates in the 1750's through 1770's recently, and discovered that the MAJORITY of marriages were followed by a birth within six months. So do the math--the standard has never changed, and the reality of living up to it hasn't changed either.

[72. farmer Tom said the following at 6:01 PM on Feb 20:]

72

I was going to compliment some of you on your very wise and insightful comments. But I was afraid I would leave someone out, so to all of you, excellent stuff, with a few minor exceptions.

Matt, have fun, but I also would highly recommend the make it public policy. When my wife and I were dating, we struggled the most with purity when we were alone, me especially. I simply found it to easy to think about her sexually when there was no one else around.

Now that we are married that is a good thing. We get alone and I start thinking about that. But when we were dating that was a huge struggle.

For the record, we were still virgins when we married, but we struggled greatly the last few months.

"I have to say that getting married young just to avoid premarital sex is an insanely bad idea!"

What we are really saying here is that delayed adolescence, delaying marriage for education/career advancement, and dating while trying to do these things is simply foolish. If you are actively dating, then you should be considering marriage as the natural end of that action. If you believe that you must/have too delay marriage for what ever reason, don't be dating.

I can't find it but someone mentioned kissing in this thread, and I had previously mentioned Paul's command for a man not to touch a woman. During Valentines week I read this article: Kissing Study

So early research evidence points to the fact that the human body reacts to kissing by the release of hormones in the body which lead to increased levels of arousal, and attachment. Kissing leads to sex. Maybe not the first, second or third time, but the act of kissing is a prelude to the sex act.

Dudes, keep your lips off of the lady until you have a license.

[73. farmer Tom said the following at 7:24 PM on Feb 20:]

73

69. JuliestD,

AMEN

[74. Ted Slater said the following at 8:13 PM on Feb 20:]

74

Craig M. (#71), you wrote:

They did a study of American birthdates and marriage dates in the 1750's through 1770's recently, and discovered that the MAJORITY of marriages were followed by a birth within six months.

You'll need to provide an attribution before I'll believe that statistic; I'm kind of funny that way. I did find an article (an excerpt from the book Domestic Revolutions by Steven Mintz, Susan Kellogg, which was published in 1989), that implied that certain populations in New England during that time had increased premarital sex:

By the middle of the eighteenth century, parental influence over the choice of a spouse had sharply declined. One indication of a decline in parental control was a sudden upsurge in the mid-eighteenth century the number of brides who were pregnant when they got married. In the seventeenth century, fathers--supported by local churches and courts--exercised close control over their childrens' sexual behavior and kept sexual intercourse prior to marriage at extremely low levels. The percentage of women who bore a first child less than eight-and-a half months after marriage was below ten percent. By the middle of the eighteenth century, the figure had shot up to over forty percent.

... but that doesn't support what you said. Not being contentious, Craig M., just wanting to be confident about what the truth is.

[75. Adam said the following at 8:18 PM on Feb 20:]

75

IMO,

I think this is where the 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 school of thought applies to: If you are dating/courting somebody who you are see as marriage material and are struggling hard in the 'burning in lust' category, then why not get married? That makes perfect sense.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9 is talking about widowers and widows, and isn't even dealing with singles. It is talking about a situation where someone is used to having sexual relations with their spouse, and then their spouse is no longer there. If, in that situation, you still have that burning desire for your spouse, but cannot satisfy it because they are dead, you should remarry. Paul assumes that in verses 2-4 where he specifically commands married people to have sexual relations, and thus, it only flows naturally into his argument in 7:8-9.

Again, there is a problem with this idea. If you cannot control yourself before marriage, what are you going to do when you are married, and you are put in a situation where you are tempted to commit adultery? How are you going to avoid it if you have not learned self-control?

God Bless,
Adam

[76. BDB said the following at 8:24 PM on Feb 20:]

76

One practical thing - I might have even heard it from Mr. Dobson once - is to make your home THE place for the neighborhood kids to come. It means investing in a house big enough to have the teenage friends of your kids over for a BBQ, maybe a game room. By making your home the place to be, you get to know your kids' friends. And when those friends go to high school with your kids, those young men will already know you take a direct interest in your daughter's well being.

It's the friendly version of just happening to be cleaning your gun when you first meet the guy who's interested in your daughter...farmer Tom can probably speak to that better than I can.

[77. BDB said the following at 8:41 PM on Feb 20:]

77

CraigM (#71) wrote:

>>Many, many women--even Christian women--look askance at a guy who's 30 and a virgin.<<

No doubt these are the same women who would be freaked out if a guy told them he'd been praying for a godly wife and thinks it might be her...

[78. Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D. said the following at 9:40 PM on Feb 20:]

78

Bethany (#67), those who scoff at abstinence-only education would never push "safe smoking" education, or "safe drink driving", because people are going to smoke and drink-drive anyway. Rather, the current "safe sex" rubbish tells kids that they are just evolved animals who can't control their animal urges.

Dr Thomas Sowell’s classic book Vision of the Anointed shows up the deceit of those who pushed for "values-free" sex "education", as his close friend Dr Walter Williams summarizes:

In the early 60s, Planned Parenthood and other groups convinced the nation there was a “crisis” in teen pregnancy and venereal disease. They got Congress to give them our money to sponsor sex education (read: indoctrination) classes, often showing films to junior high school students depicting hetero- and homosexual couples engaged in sex; teenage birth control clinics were set up and condom distribution programs started.

Was there a crisis in the first place? Since 1950, teenage fertility rates had been declining as were venereal disease rates. By 1960 syphilis and gonorrhea infections were less than half of what they were in 1950. We all know the story after “sex education”. Teen pregnancy rose from 68 per thousand in 1970 to 96 per thousand by 1980. Venereal disease rate skyrocketed 350 percent between 1965 and 1978.

[79. Craig M. said the following at 12:57 AM on Feb 21:]

79

Ted--you're right, I should find the article. But to be honest, I read it a while ago and can't for the life of me remember where. So take it with a grain of salt, everyone.

[80. Jo said the following at 2:27 AM on Feb 21:]

80

Renee 41, some great points, but I have to disagree with this paragraph:
"If you insist on letting your children date- they will have sex. If you allow them to go out alone- they will have sex. If you let them stay at each other's house alone, or with other friends, or their no-good siblings, they will have sex."

It's just not true. I did all of those things frequently, and here I am as a 26 year old virgin. I go out with guy-friends, I spend time alone with them, one even stayed the night at my flat for practical reasons once. Circumstances don't make people have sex, choices do.

I agree with Dani in 43 - a guy who is living with his girlfrield should certainly NOT be a worship leader.

BDB in 70 - another brilliant point.
"So often it's presented as if people just trip on the sidewalk and fall into sin."

I totally agree. I would go further, and say that we make too much of a big deal about it being 'difficult' to stay pure. Yes it is sometimes difficult, and it is I think more difficult for some people than others. Circumstances do play a part - obviously if you're in a relationship, that makes it trickier than if you're single! But it isn't the barely attainable goal that many make it out to be. Can't we find a better balance between "It's gonna be tough" and "You absolutely can achieve it"?

[81. Leah said the following at 6:14 AM on Feb 21:]

81

rushncap (13) - I'd like to know how you know so much about Christian history, especially the sexual side of things. As Christians we are not here to tell non-Christians how they must live and to 'make' them abstinent. If we can show them that's a good lifestyle, then excellent. But our priority is introducing them to God and showing them his immense love. It's only once they are convinced of that, that understanding and following his commands becomes the #1 priority.

Victoria (39) - just because the people around you are being impure does not mean being pure is unrealistic. There are LOTS of people remaining pure, therefore, it is realistic. It's also very unfair to say 'most' Christians take their faith lightly just because the Christians you associate with do. If your church is so lax that it allows its worship leader to be living with his girlfriend, you should question the church's morals and the importance it places on the bible, and perhaps even leave.

I am part of a leadership team for our church's primary school youth group. Our coordinator is relentless in making sure we not only live as role models, but that we don't do anything that appears otherwise. One of my friends who used to be part of the team often had her boyfriend around quite late at night and very early in the morning. He would take her to work when she started at 6am. Our coordinator would sometimes question her about this; he didn't know, he'd just drive past and see the boyfriend's car in the driveway at 5:30 in the morning or midnight. (SHe did still live with her mother). He pointed out that this was undesirable; if parents from the church saw this, it would be an easy assumption that the boyfriend is spending nights at his girlfriend's place- not an image we wanted parents to be having of their children's youth leaders. My friend became so indignant and "sick of all this 'accountability' stuff" that she quit, and even left the church because she felt the coordinator had 'rubbished' her in front of the rest of the leadership team. (Not true; he was actually the most respectful I've ever heard him be of someone who's made a bad decision). She in turn dragged her boyfriend away from the church too (she told me he was quite willing; he told me otherwise) and they've not joined another church since and now are actually living together.

I really think the situation you described is demonstrative of a leadership who is not holding the leadership below it accountable. It's not demonstrative of "everyone is doing it".

Matt (38) - I understand your desire to be able to have some "at home" time with your girlfriend. And I do think that's ok. But please, please, do NOT think it will be just as easy to remain pure inside your house as in a cafe having brunch. My now-husband and I were fortunate in that we both still lived with our families while we were going out. We still did stuff we definitely shouldn't have, but the knowledge that anyone could come through the door at any time stopped us going "the whole way", or to the "point of no return". You will not have that knowledge. BE AWARE OF THAT.

[82. Louise from Chicago said the following at 5:59 PM on Feb 21:]

82

Comment 81, I can understand why that particular young woman left that leadership team and church.

I know you people believe in avoiding "the appearance of evil" but the presence of an automobile at someone's house early in the mornings when someone starts work at 6 AM and the auto owner gives the person a ride...that seems a little too extreme to me.

Does she not own a car? And if so, should she start to take a cab to work? But then might people think she was having an affair with the cab driver?

And, if the co-ordinator didn't know the particular circumstances but felt he should speak to this young woman about it, he should have done so in private.

No excuse, IMO.

[83. Leah said the following at 8:12 PM on Feb 21:]

83

Renee (41) said If you insist on letting your children date- they will have sex. If you allow them to go out alone- they will have sex. If you let them stay at each other's house alone, or with other friends, or their no-good siblings, they will have sex.

Wow. You don't have a very good opinion of parents, do you? Or their kids?

I dated from the age of 17 (I'm now married to him). We went out alone together. While I was still at school, there were several times I spent the night at friends' places- a whole group of us, say 7-10 people, guys and girls. I never had sex. None of my (non-Christian) friends had sex before finishing school except for 1, even though most of them had dated.

Come on, don't have such a low opinion of people.

[84. JuliestD said the following at 10:45 PM on Feb 21:]

84

Thank you Farmer Tom -- I appreciate your affirmation. I always enjoy your comments as well!

[85. Tehilah said the following at 6:31 AM on Feb 22:]

85

I'm 32 and a virgin. Though in some melodramatic moments I thought it was unbearable, it hasn't really been all that difficult to avoid sexual intimacy before marriage. I credit my parents mostly for instilling strong personal convictions on the matter at a very early age.

How? First, God's Word is a clear and powerful tool in teaching abstinence. But there are also some practical ways to make abstinence work.

Here are some ideas:

1. Explain sex early - my mom explained the mechanics of it to me when my friend's sister was born. I was 6. It demystified the physical act of sex and I was never cravenly curious about it after that. After all, if parents know all about it... to a teen it's not that cool anymore.

2. Create a safe place for teens to hang out en masse - in your home. At our church we discourage dating before the age of 18, and give the teens plenty of opportunities to hang out in chaste environments and enjoy one another as sisters and brothers. Teens complain and regularly raise the "holy kiss" question, but it seems to work pretty well.

3. Encourage your daughters and sons to develop strong same-sex friendships as teens. Best friends fill the need for heart-intimacy, especially in young girls, and reduce the risk that she will try to fill that void with the attention of a guy (which tends to have sexual strings attached). My brother has a regular group of guys that he hangs out with and does (terribly dangerous and adventurous) things with and they all hold one another accountable and out of trouble.

4. Use teachable moments - My mom would turn off the TV if there was some sexually questionable material and instead of saying "that's bad" she walked us through the real life repercussions of the on-screen action. So, I learned that premarital sex didn't lead to lifelong relationships, but to broken hearts, secrets, lies and guilt, teen pregnancy, sexual diseases, etc. Similarly, pointing out headlines that have to do with the messed up social lives of celebrities can turn teens off to promiscuous behavior.

5. This really worked for me - object lessons. Use several different colors of play dough to illustrate what happens to the heart when you have sex. Merge two clumps together in one spot, then rip them apart (first sexual experience). Do so with a few different colors and your daughter will get the mental image. If she wants to enter marriage with a clean and whole heart, she won't "mix" it with other people's.
This next one will raise some eyebrows - but I happened to look in a photographic atlas of skin diseases when I was a teen, and the photos of sexually transmitted diseases where THE most effective deterrent for me. Incidentally, a smoking demonstration in high school similarly completely removed any temptation for me to smoke. The teacher simply lit a cigarette attached to a bag with a coffee filter inside. The black tar stain on the filter was the most foul thing I ever smelled. No way did I want that in my lungs.

6. Get teens involved in Pro-Life - Having to argue against abortion not only educated me early on about teen pregnancy and baby development, it exposed me to the heartache and seediness of uncovenanted love.

Teens and young adults aren't stupid, and God's injunctions are not only protective of His glory, but also conducive to good health. Abstinence is not only possible; it's actually far easier than dealing with the mess of premarital sex. I cut to the chase early and make it clear that physical intimacy is not an option and consequently have never found myself on the "dark and cozy couch" trying to remember my values.

[86. Tiffany said the following at 8:13 AM on Feb 22:]

86

I agree with Louise (82). No wonder that poor girl left the church - it's amazing how legalism drives people away...

[87. BDB said the following at 2:03 PM on Feb 22:]

87

Late in my college career, when this discussion came up with a bunch of non-Christians, I simply asked them how many of them had had to sit with someone and help pick up the pieces when they realized they'd made a mistake. For some reason, that instantly took the wind out of their sails.

It's kind of like the person who would always tease me because I didn't drink. I finally just told her that there were a couple of alcoholics in my family tree, and since there is a theoretical possibility that there is a genetic component, I decided it wasn't worth the risk. I asked if she thought I should roll the dice. She said no.

[88. IMO said the following at 2:23 PM on Feb 22:]

88

Tiffany, what part of:
"She in turn dragged her boyfriend away from the church too (she told me he was quite willing; he told me otherwise) and they've not joined another church since and now are actually living together."

did you not understand?

Yea, poor girl. Now living in sin with her boyfriend.

[89. Leah said the following at 6:40 PM on Feb 22:]

89

I'm 27, a virgin, and dating for the first time. I've heard it all, seen it all, read it all, etc. from the Christian community since I was at least 10 years old.

Is abstinence realistic? Yeah. Just don't have sex.

If you put yourself in a situation where you *might* be tempted to have sex, then is it surprising when you do? Uh, not really!

The "Four P's" sound great - and that's pretty much what me and my boyfriend are following, but I do caution anyone to watch out for the number one opposing "p" - PRIDE.

I could list a zillion Scriptures right now to explain why that particular "p" is worth avoiding. Honestly it boils down to the fact that as humans, we are frail, and have no match against our own flesh, let alone the wiles of the devil, in our own strength. It doesn't matter what rules we make, what we tell ourselves, what plans we devise - if we do not keep an attitude of humility, we are at a grave risk to fail.

I know I could blow it at any time. So I keep God as the center of my world and pleasing Him as the utmost priority. I consider every interaction with anyone else (even my boyfriend) in the light of how pleased God would be with my words and actions. The Bible says over and over again that God gives grace to the humble, and I am trusting that His grace is going to carry me through.

And it certainly makes abstinence easy.

[90. Texas Craig said the following at 10:24 PM on Feb 22:]

90

Dr. Sarfati said:

"those who scoff at
abstinence-only education would never push "safe smoking" education, or "safe drink driving", because people are going to smoke and drink-drive anyway. Rather, the current "safe sex" rubbish tells kids that they are just evolved animals who can't control their animal urges."

Great points! I am going to be using that comment. It really is so true how we don't hear anyone throwing in the towel and talking about how to smoke safely (just a few cigarettes a day, use filters, use lower nicotine cigarettes... yada yada yada) or drive drunk safely (get a really small car so you are less likely to really hurt someone other than yourself....). :-)

I seriously am going to get some mileage out of that idea...

[91. Theo K said the following at 1:20 AM on Feb 23:]

91

There should be no question on whether chastity is probable/possible, whatever.
Those that are Christians will hear the Word of God and obey.

Those that will not obey are, guess what, not Christians. As simple as that. Listen to this:
“Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.” – Ephesians 5:5-6

So let no one deceive you, no matter what people profess, if they are living an unrepentant sexually immoral lifestyle, then they are, on the authority of the Bible, not Christians. Christ has not transformed their hearts and desires, they have not been born again (and no loopholes allowed…)

[92. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:36 AM on Feb 23:]

92

My mother is constantly getting on my case about how "introspective" I am.

She thinks I get too self-involved and think too much when it isn't necessary.

Sometimes she's right...other times, I think it helps me understand circumstances a bit better.

I was 22 when I did "it". There were a lot of things that led me to giving in, all of which occurred in the 4 years preceding that.

Remaining sexually abstinent was a cake-walk when I wasn't dating and was virtually shunned by the majority of my peers in church. I wasn't subjected to Christians not remaining pure and there was no one around to tempt me.

I usually knew when a friend became sexually active, because she'd stop talking to me...I guess they thought I'd judge them.

My mother never really talked about abstinence...I'm not quite certain what it was that triggered that desire to remain abstinent - but I'm pretty certain it was DEFINITELY a result of my faith.

I knew that I had been conceived out of wed-lock and how much that contributed to an identity crisis when I was 13 - is my dad really my dad? Adolescence is hard enough trying to figure out your identity without questioning your parentage...I didn't want to have that as an issue for my children.

It wasn't until I was in high school that I really got much of a "sex-ed". I knew the mechanics prior...how hard is it to figure out when you know your own anatomy and you have 3 little brothers? Or walking in on parents. You figure it out eventually even without the "sex ed" of birds and the bees.

My sex-ed was taught by a conservative...she skipped condoms and only discussed STD's and REAL sexual health =p Again, I didn't need an education on condoms because just existing at school was enough of one.

But the real problem - the VERY real problem - was poor self-esteem, a friend with lies on his tongue to justify his own actions that I didn't understand, and my believing them.

I ended up making choices that kind of "degraded" me without giving anything up when I turned 18. I wanted to be kissed - that's harmless enough, right? And it was. But there were other things that weren't harmless that I had been fooled into believing were "ok".

By the time I was 22, I was lauded for being a virgin - but I felt dirty and used and not worthy of that title. And I hated it when people would give me undue attention due to that. Throw into that dating a guy I thought I was going to marry.

In a last ditch effort to discard a title I didn't think I deserved, I slept with him.

I think that the HARDEST part of being a virgin is how it has people treating you differently because of it - and not in a good way. Respect is good. Don't get me wrong...but praising you for it or avoiding you because you are "holier-than-thou" when that was never your intent is cruel and hard.

I think that learning to love God and keep him above all else and being raised to deal with the SIDE EFFECTS of that would have been helpful. I never learned how to deal with the "outsider" effect. Especially since people who I thought were just as gung-ho about God as I was kept me on the outside, too.

Learning how to live without genuine community, learning how to live with others and stick to your values, and learning patience in ALL things would be the best medicine for remaining abstinent.

And OPENNESS with your parents! I was 20 years old before I talked to my mother about what had occurred between age 18 and then. If we had had that conversation before I was 18, I think things would have gone so much better in that regard. And unfortunately I continued to talk to her only when things got so bad I couldn't handle it anymore rather than in a preventive way.

I'm still learning how to talk to my mother about sex...because the issues don't go away once you're married (they are just different). I think teaching your children that its ok to talk to them about questions and not falling into the societal belief that its a taboo subject with parents would go a LONG way, as well.

But that requires some overcoming of squeamishness with parents, too.

[93. anon said the following at 9:22 AM on Feb 23:]

93

Louise from Chicago,

I saw the interview with Bristol Palin on tv. No, she was not sneering. I agree with one of the other commentors on this post, that it seemed to me she was referring to abstinence being unrealistic among people in general, not among Christians.

[94. Tiffany said the following at 9:25 AM on Feb 23:]

94

IMO,

You don't think legalism in the church helps drive people away? Sometimes away from the faith itself?

I'm not condoning the choices this girl has since made. But that doesn't necessarily mean that her worship leader (or whatever the position he held) wasn't wrong, too.

[95. John said the following at 9:45 AM on Feb 23:]

95

"I also don't think that solutions like "get married earlier" are going to help either. If you cannot control yourself before marriage, what makes you think that you will be able to control yourself after marriage?"

Right, the solution is NOT "get married earlier". The solution is the church needs to disciple believers, parents and their children, to mature spiritually, emotionally and psychologically more in line with our physical maturation AND more importantly, God's word.

Telling two young immature believers to get married just so they can have sex is stupid. But...it's better they do that than fornicate. Though, of course, those aren't the only two choices.

"I have to say that getting married young just to avoid premarital sex is an insanely bad idea! I was 32 when I married and yes i was a virgin. I married "late" because I wanted to marry the right one and not just anyone. A lifetime of being with the wrong person is not worth it."

Where do people keep coming up with this false dichotamy?

Anyway, "a lifetime of being with the wrong person", depends largly on the attitudes and choices of the people involved in the relationship.

Why are you people so fatal?

"What we are really saying here is that delayed adolescence, delaying marriage for education/career advancement, and dating while trying to do these things is simply foolish. If you are actively dating, then you should be considering marriage as the natural end of that action. If you believe that you must/have too delay marriage for what ever reason, don't be dating. "

Amen!

"Again, there is a problem with this idea. If you cannot control yourself before marriage, what are you going to do when you are married, and you are put in a situation where you are tempted to commit adultery? How are you going to avoid it if you have not learned self-control?"

Adam, way off buddy. What it is saying, and I think a commentor already stated this, is that if two marriable people are burning for each other (naturally burning), then get married, don't put yourself under undue temptation.

We're not talking about a ragin perv who just wants sex. We're talking about normal affections that are very strong. There's no sense in allowing them to get out of control and cause us to sin.

Let's wear our thinking caps now.

[96. anon said the following at 10:02 AM on Feb 23:]

96

I was a virgin into my late thirties. I did manage to save myself for my wedding night. While I have no regrets for myself, and feel good about the choice I made, I do not want my child to have to be a virgin for that long. I like what Hilary Clinton told her daughter, "No sex before 21." I'm telling my child not to make choices that will postpone marriage, to try to marry sooner rather than later. Unfortunately, this also means that I will tell my child to stay away from born again, evangelical Christians, as the "Gift of Singleness" doctrine does have a tendency to perpetuate singleness.

[97. Victoria said the following at 12:31 PM on Feb 23:]

97

To everyone who commented on my situation of a young man on the worship team who is living with his girlfriend: I think they moved in together only about 2 months ago, and it being a large church, I don't think any of the pastors know about it. I'm torn about what to do, I don't want to 'tattle' on him and come across Pharisee-like. I think someone should confront him about his sin privately before taking it up to the elders, but I don't think that person should be me (he's a single man, I'm a married woman, we're not close friends, etc). I don't think our pastors would allow him to serve in ministry if they knew. I'm just disappointed about his choice. Also, to the woman whose parents think dating for a year is not long enough to get married: my father proposed to my mother (who was 18 and just out of high school) FOUR DAYS after they met. They were married 2 months later. Their families were supportive. Dr. Dobson would certainly not approve! I wouldn't recommend doing this, BTW. Although they were both mature believers, my dad honestly says that he didn't have a 'spiritual' reason for proposing to her after 4 days, like "I knew this was the one that God had for me" - he plainly states that my mom was the hottest woman he'd ever seen and that he just HAD to marry her. So there you go... Like I said, I wouldn't recommend for anybody to do this! But they are still married after almost 30 years. Also, to those who say "If you can't control yourself prior to marriage, getting married won't help", I would just like to say that I really struggled with lust all my life, especially when my husband and I were first dating. It was the biggest obstacle in my spiritual walk with God. I was also really worried that because I hadn't mastered my lust before getting married, I would still continue to struggle. Well, praise God, ever since getting married it has never been an issue again! Having a legitimate outlet for those urges solved the problem. I think that's exactly what Paul was talking about. Lastly, thank you to everyone who testified about their commitment to purity. It was awesome to read your testimonies, and very encouraging. When my husband and I got married, we felt like the last virgins on the planet, even (sadly) among Christians. I'm so glad to hear that this wasn't true.

[98. Adam said the following at 1:01 PM on Feb 23:]

98

John,

Adam, way off buddy. What it is saying, and I think a commentor already stated this, is that if two marriable people are burning for each other (naturally burning), then get married, don't put yourself under undue temptation.

Actually, I would say that the phrase "naturally burning" is an oxymoron. The apostle Paul said as much:

1 Thessalonians 4:4-5 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;

Likewise, Jesus said:

Matthew 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I think what we have here is a lessing of sin. The standard is no desire for sexual relations before marriage, period. If you desire sexual relations before marriage, then you are engaging in sin.

The other problem is that Jesus himself said that the problem with sin is in the heart. The solution to sin in the heart is not "get married," but, rather, "change your thinking." I remember one time hearing of a cult that believed that sexual relations were wrong. When some of their memebers came out of the cult, they had difficulty having sexual relations because of what they had formerly believed.

Now, I am not in any way shape or form suggesting that what this cult believed is correct, but what if we used this principle for good rather than evil? What if people literally believed that sexual relations before marriage was wrong in the same way that the people in this cult believed sexual relations in general were wrong? What if it happened to the point were, even if people in the church attempted fornication, they could not do it, because of the way they had been raised up?

The problem is that we do not train up our children in this fashion. We do not teach them wisdom and discernment that is after the fear of the Lord. If we trained our children up to fear the commandments of God in the same way that this cult trained up their children to fear the teachings of the cult, we would not have this problem. However, we do, and telling them to get married may just be exchanging adultery for fornication.

God Bless,
Adam

[99. Jo said the following at 1:19 PM on Feb 23:]

99

Christina, #92:
Thank you for writing that.

[100. Ashley Harris said the following at 2:08 PM on Feb 23:]

100

Adam,

You said, "If you desire sexual relations before marriage, then you are engaging in sin."

Do you really believe that desire is sin?

I would say that sexual desire (not lust) is something that can motivate us toward marriage.