Leaving Your (Sexual) Past Behind

Leaving Your (Sexual) Past Behind
by Thomas Jeffries on 01/06/2009 at 8:24 AM

The last couple of "Boundless Answers" columns have got me thinking. More accurately, they've got me remembering.

For those of you who haven't read them yet, Candice yesterday responded to a single woman who plans on asking her "future husband to get tested" for sexually transmitted infections (STIs). And last week, John Thomas offered some advice to a young man who is dealing with feelings of insecurity as he anticipates a future discussion with his girlfriend regarding their past sexual experiences.

In the first case, the woman acknowledges that she is not a virgin, but has concerns about the sexual health of her future husband. In the second instance, the man discloses that he is a virgin, but has "much reason to believe" that his girlfriend -- whom he loves deeply -- is not. Needless to say, this thought troubles him very much.

Reading these columns took me back to the time when my now-wife and I were dating. (This was the early 1990s; we didn't call it courtship way back then.) And while I largely agree with the advice Candice and John offer, I would like to add some of my own. More accurately, I would like to supplement their answers with the counsel we received at the time from our pastor and his wife:

When couples moving toward marriage decide to have "the talk" about their sexual pasts', they should be very cautious when it comes to discussing details. It's certainly reasonable to ask if a potential mate is a virgin, in which case the STI question reasonably follows, but what more is gained by taking an inventory of past relationships and the corresponding activities -- particularly if such activities took place before one or both parties was a devoted follower of Christ?

In other words, this is one case where "the whole truth" can be a destructive thing. Does it really help to know whether the woman you want to marry slept with two or five others before you met and fell in love? If that part of her life is truly in the past, does an exact number make you feel better or worse? More or less secure? And likewise, will the man you want to spend your life with love you any less if you learn the names of his past sexual partners, particularly if that area of his past now seems like a lifetime ago?

Now, I realize that "openness" and "transparency" are extremely popular concepts; I, for one, was convinced that I wanted to ask (and likewise answer) any and all questions to/from the woman I wanted to marry. There would be no secrets in our relationship, we vowed, even if the truth was a bit painful. But when we began to be open and honest, we quickly learned that our pastor and his wife were very wise indeed.

Though neither of us had what you might call a sordid sexual past, it's also true that I did not save my first kiss for the altar, and neither did my wife. And as we began to "transparently" answer each other's questions, what resulted was not a sense of greater closeness and security, but rather resentment and insecurity. What good did it serve to hear about her other boyfriends? My previous girlfriends? To be completely open and honest with you, it didn't do much good at all.

When we saw what was happening, we realized that our pastor was right -- the details weren't very important after all. (Incidentally, I have now heard this same advice from a number of pastors/counselors.) As a result, my wife and I have lived in blissfully ignorant matrimony for more than 15 years now.

Now please don't twist my words to suggest that I'm in favor of keeping secrets from a potential spouse. I am not. If you are sexually experienced and he's not, be honest about it. And don't wait until you're married to reveal the truth. But sharing every intimate detail of that experience will do little to strengthen the bond you are trying to forge.

Of course, there are always exceptions. Along with the already noted exception of health-related issues, it would also help to know if a potential mate comes from a history of abusive relationships or moral failures -- a past abortion, for example -- but even those can be worked through with the help of a qualified counselor. So, if you are convinced via prayer, hours of conversation and the counsel of other Christians that the person you intend to marry is today a solid, committed, regenerated believer in Christ, then what hold do past experiences have on him/her?

Let the details stay in the past, where they belong.

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1. Anne said the following at 9:23 AM on Jan 6:

I couldn't agree more with the opinions presented here. I have found in my own experience that it is far better to not know more than is necessary. It only adds insecurity to what should otherwise be a secure, trusting relationship. What's in the past is past (provided that person is not currently engaging in that type of activity).

2. Dr. Ransom said the following at 9:41 AM on Jan 6:

When couples moving toward marriage decide to have "the talk" about their sexual pasts', they should be very cautious when it comes to discussing details.
[. . .]

In other words, this is one case where "the whole truth" can be a destructive thing.

Thanks for the additional thoughts, Thomas.

I recall Josh Harris having some good things to say about that in Boy Meets Girl as well. His bride-to-be, for example, was a relatively new Christian and not a virgin, and they had to talk about that difficult topic. But she left out the details, and he didn't ask for them.

Harris wrote also about the need to keep the who-did-what-when details not "secret" per se, but merely un-talked about so as to eliminate unnecessary mental imagery. Perhaps more importantly, Harris stresses the need to make an absolute vow never to use someone's sinful sexual past as a verbal weapon against him or her, later in argument. Never. If it has been forgiven, it has been forgiven. Yes, some consequences may persist even in a loving marriage, but cruel, cutting reminders should never occur.

3. Caroline said the following at 12:38 PM on Jan 6:

Very interesting idea. This isn't a current issue in my life (as I am single) but something I've thought about.

The deliberately effort to *not* itemize each item for the other to think about, and worry over, reminds me Love in Corinthians 13: "love keeps no records of wrongs."

How much better to not know each detail, then to dwell and hurt over everything that is past.

4. Matthew said the following at 12:38 PM on Jan 6:

I appreciated this post a lot. My engagement ended a few months ago, and now that I'm starting to think just a little bit about dating again sometime in the next few months, the regret of the inappropriate activities that I carried on with my ex certainly weighs on me, as well as the thought of what to say about it with someone else that I might date. There's a lot of wisdom in saying only what needs to be said and nothing more.

5. James said the following at 12:39 PM on Jan 6:

I could not agree more with the sentiments expressed in the article. In Christ, we are a new creation and it does us no real benefit to dwell upon those past sins that God has forgiven.

James

(was JamesUK, but i noticed there don't appear to be any other James's, so i'm relatively safe).

6. Mark said the following at 12:39 PM on Jan 6:

I agree Thomas. The idea that somehow sexual sin needs to be probed & scrutinized more than what you've stated leads exactly to the insecurity you've mentioned. We certainly don't probe other areas of self-control nearly as much: eating / drinking, laziness, work ethic, etc. I keep returning to 1 Corinthians 6 and the phrase, "...and such were some of you. BUT you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
How can we be anything but grateful for the grace of God?
~mark

7. Anonymous for this one said the following at 12:40 PM on Jan 6:

Thank you for touching on this topic. I am a married woman and have struggled with this issue. I grew up as a Christian, my husband did not, and we have very different pasts in the area of dating and relationships. I have struggled with this issue for a few years now, ever since we got married. An intense, almost morbid curiosity about his past. My husband is wonderful, and has been very open about so many things regarding his past. He is truly a new creation in Christ and his history fills him with shame. I agree in so many ways that I need to let the past be in the past. However, there are some things I'm not sure what to do about. For example, there is still some "stuff" around the house that I don't know how to feel about...(i.e. old journals, some of which contain entries about past relationships...collections of poetry & writings, some of which have to do w past relationships...etc.). He wants to hold on to this stuff because they document his journey toward Christ, but he doesn't think it would be helpful for me to read this stuff. I, on the other hand, am bothered that it is there & I can't read it. It's actually been over a year since I've mentioned it to him; he has no idea I'm still struggling. (to clarify - he really has gotten rid of all the "momentos" from past relationships - so I'm not talking about gifts, photos, etc.). Is it wrong for me to be curious about this stuff? Would it be wrong for me to read it (with his permission)? I wish it all was as easy as "forgiving and forgetting" but it seems like there are just some grey areas like this that I don't know how to deal with. Anyone have any advice?

8. Kate said the following at 12:50 PM on Jan 6:

it would also help to know if a potential mate comes from a history of abusive relationships or moral failures -- a past abortion, for example -- but even those can be worked through with the help of a qualified counselor. So, if you are convinced via prayer, hours of conversation and the counsel of other Christians that the person you intend to marry is today a solid, committed, regenerated believer in Christ, then what hold do past experiences have on him/her?

There are abusive relationships and sexual traumas that are severe and obvious... situations that we can be pretty sure would come to mind when discussing such things... but there are other experiences that may not be so obviously harmful that can leave a sort of "residue" of behavioral learning and reemerge to cause trouble when a married sexual relationship begins... even when that person has repented and remained abstinent for years.

Though abstinence is right and desirable for the unmarried person, it can also be hard to know if you have learned negative emotional patterns related to sex when you aren't having sex... since those patterns may only emerge and create problems when they are cued during sexual activity.

Behavioral learning can be a very odd and surprising thing. Accidental associations learned with a past partner who was demeaning or disrespectful, or somehow otherwise harmful or disappointing in "smaller," less obvious ways than what people may normally consider to be "abuse," can re-emerge and create issues in a sexual relationship.

I am trying to describe this without using too much detail (in order to not provide a level of detail that this blog is encouraging us to avoid, and/or that may be inappropriate for this blog!)

But I fear it may not make sense without an example... so I will try to use a mild one, perhaps somebody had a past partner who was critical and would get very disappointed when an interaction wasn't "satisfactory" in some way. This was upsetting to our person at the time but it didn't happen all the time and it wasn't "that bad," and he/she moved on and repented of sins, remained abstinent and did not think much of it again. 5 years later, said person is now married and the spouse has shown the tiniest bit of unhappiness about a sexual interaction (or something that the person only sees as unhappiness about the interaction but may even be entirely unrelated) and the person gets disproportionately upset... because in a way it's like reliving a memory, he/she has become "wired" to be extra-sensitive to this. To make it worse, that person lives it as present reality, "my partner is rejecting me/has unrealistic expectations, etc. etc., conflict conflict" without even realizing the connection to the past experience. Depending on how the person reacts to this, the whole thing can get blown into an entrenched and new conflict between the current partners. Clearly to the spouse, this kind of reaction would make no sense without knowledge of the past relationship.

It is true that a good counselor could assist this couple in identifying the kinds of behavior learned associations I am trying to describe and work through the issues they can cause.

It is true that you may wish to "wait and see" if you have a problem like this and then seek guidance at that time/when things get really bad. It is true that it's a good idea to seek guidance if you are having sexual difficulties in your marriage.

However, if you and your spouse have a good idea about your past(s)(and I'm suggesting more details than what is promoted here), you as a team may be able to identify a connection between the current problem and past that you may have missed while thinking it through as private individuals. You might be able to address/solve the problem before it grows new facets and becomes entrenched between the two of you, and/or identify when it is time to seek help sooner.

I know it is often painful to describe and hear about those past things. Sin is very sad and harmful and it can cause enduring damage to our bodies even after we have repented and been forgiven. With training in counseling and experience working with people infected with HIV/AIDS, I have gained a continuously deeper understanding of why God hates adultery and why He tries to protect us from it!

9. Read said the following at 1:38 PM on Jan 6:

Kate
That's a very insightful post. Something it reminded me of was the critical nature of communication and asking the right questions. Yes, delving into someones past sexual history out of a sense of morbid curiosity is only going to hurt your relationship. However, if you notice an aspect of behavior that might be abnormal or dysfunctional then it is important to communicate about that. It could be an aspect of a learned behavior that is the result of physical or verbal abuse or misconception that was reinforced by insensitivity. In this case it would be appropriate to address past sexual experience in general terms. There was a young woman I dated who could not tolerate someone standing behind her or sneaking up on her. Once I came up behind her doing the dishes to give her a hug and she screamed. This lead to a conversation that we would otherwise not have had during which I found out she was a rape victim. She would have never told me if I hadn't asked. I was then able to lead her to a good counselor who helped her deal with some issue she thought were buried in the past. Communication is very important so please don't be afraid to ask questions if you see a behavior that seems unhealthy.

10. BDB said the following at 3:17 PM on Jan 6:

Kate's post reminds me that people may be similarly affected by the choices made by people close to them, such as siblings. If one sister is kind of needy/clingy, the other might observe this and react by becoming super-independent.

Similarly, a woman who has seen her sister treated disrespectfully and then abandoned by her husband may take steps to avoid getting herself into a similar situation.

11. Daniella said the following at 3:17 PM on Jan 6:

I completely agree. I wish I had known this before my boyfriend and I talked about pretty much everything from our past relationships. I know it's all in the past but just thinking about his exes makes me uneasy somehow. I know I am the one he's chosen to be with and I completely trust him but thinking about how he cared about these other girls can drive me nuts. He didn't know that what he was doing sexually was wrong at the time either. It hurts me to know these details but I want to know. But I agree that I think it would be better if I didn't.
But with all of this I come to realize that sex before marriage is a sin for a reason and the past sins are forgiven but they still have consequences.
It's another reason that I see why God wants us to "not awaken love before its time"

12. BDB said the following at 3:18 PM on Jan 6:

#7 wrote:

>>I wish it all was as easy as "forgiving and forgetting" but it seems like there are just some grey areas like this that I don't know how to deal with. Anyone have any advice?<<

One of the things that makes it easier for people to live with one another is kindness. Sometimes that means taking one's angriest thoughts to God privately, and dealing with them at the foot of the cross. That may require journaling. I would encourage you to consider those journals off-limits. Yours should also be off-limits.

You can, for example, put these struggles into YOUR prayer journal, and wait for God to nudge him to share his thoughts with you more openly.

Recently, I felt that God was prompting me to send someone an e-mail speaking directly to the issue of our duty to forgive other believers for their past mistakes. I wasn't sure why, but I was able to find an opportunity to work it into the conversation. I was keenly aware that putting something like that in writing would mean committing to react accordingly should any revealations come later.

It only took a few hours. They responded by asking me to pray for a family member who had made a number of bad choices and was trying to get their life back on track. I was pretty stunned to learn the details, though I already sensed that something of that scale was going on. It's just not what I thought it was.

But I am glad that I have it written down in my own little journal. I feel like God gave me a head's up so I could prepare.

13. anon to anon said the following at 4:04 PM on Jan 6:

For Anonymous #7. I have been in your shoes. I grew up a Christian and always thought I would marry another virgin. That didn't happen. I love my husband and his faith now is amazing, but it wasn't always and he made mistakes. Early on in our relationship it was obvious we were moving towards marriage, he talked to me about his past, the basics, nothing detailed. Later on in our engagement, he voluntarily went and get tested. I know his heart was breaking at the though of hurting me, physically and emotionally, because of his past.

But about a year after we were married, I found out a few more details about his past, nothing vulgar or anything, just more things I didn't know. They came up in a casual converstation, I think he though I already knew them but I didn't. (we were friends before we dated so some things I knew beforehand) At that point, what I thought I had given over to God and dealt with came back and I seemed to be obsessed with "what I didn't know." I was afraid that any new conversation would reveal some new (and bad) thing.

I knew he currently had a journal and he had mentioned having them in the past. When preparing to move I found an old box of his stuff with old notebooks in it and when I check to see what it was, I found out it was his journals. I should have immediately put them away but I didn't. I found out things I did not need to know and still wish I didn't. After we talked about what I had seen, he said that I could read the rest but I declined. I don't think it would be "wrong" for you to read it, but I don't think it would be beneficial.

Through all that I did find out other things that I did need to know though - but more from our conversations than the journal itself. To me at least, it was important that I knew some general things so that I didn't feel like I could be blindsided at any time one of his siblings mentioned a vacation he took with a girlfriend, etc. We didn't want to talk about it to emphasis the sin, but to see what areas we needed God's help in - problems like Kate (#8) mentioned. Things that he was sensitive to because of his past, or things that I was sensitive to because I knew his past. Those things would not have been helpful to know during our engagement, but I do think were necessary to know during our marriage. There were a few issues that we just would have been beating our heads on the wall trying to fix but unable too unless he shared some details. So we needed to talk more. But names, specific actions, things like that just fuel hurtful feelings. I think you will find our more of the former by discussion and the latter by the journal.

And he feels the same way about your husband does about the journal, they talk about his past, the first day he went to college, his first real job, (meeting me :-) life experiences that he doesn't want to forget, along with some that he maybe does wish would go away. He can't throw them all out so he will keep them all. I wish they were completely gone but knowing that I can read them, with him, at any time, does help me feel like it isn't a secret. But I will continue to choose not to. Maybe some day he will be comfortable going through and removing certain pages but I don't think He is ready to re-read them yet.

14. Esther said the following at 7:31 PM on Jan 6:

I had an awkward experience related to this recently, though in the most innocent way possible. My mom went to the funeral of my first boyfriend in high school. It wasn't much of a relationship, either emotionally or physically, and I don't remember much about him except for his name. He was at this funeral with his wife, and started talking to my mom. They were just chatting, but his wife was saying she had heard all about me from him. My mom thought this was sweet, and called to tell me so. Except that I think it's really weird that he had told his wife "all about" some girl he had dated for 2 months in high school. I know he was more interested in me than I in him, but I didn't imagine it was that critical a relationship.

15. liz said the following at 7:31 PM on Jan 6:

Hmmmm. What do you guys think about telling a boyfriend or fiance about other sexual sins? Like I masturbated for a few years in my teens...I didn't really know it was wrong and my parents never really were comfortable talking about stuff like that with me, so I didn't ask them. Would that be something I would need to talk about with a boyfriend or fiance?

16. Becky said the following at 9:38 PM on Jan 6:

I really am in the minority here but I asked my now husband for details and don't regret it and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I wanted to know how many and why (one night stand, girlfriend, etc). Once we had the conversation it was over and done with. I've never been haunted by images or felt insecure by his past.

17. hxcjf said the following at 9:38 PM on Jan 6:

#7 Your husband should be willing to get rid of everything that connects him to past girlfriends. When we come to (marry) Christ, we destroy everything that connects us to Satan's kingdom, so why shouldn't he get rid of everything that connects him to other girls when he marries you? I have only dated one other girl before the girl I am dating now, and I have taken out every journal reference to her so there would be absolutely no connection. And we didn't even sin physically in any way. Your husband owes it to you to break every soul tie to commit to you. At the very least he should love you enough so if its important to you, he'd get rid of them.

18. Liz said the following at 9:08 AM on Jan 7:

I couldn't agree more. These are things I've thought myself, but it's good to see another affirm these ideas I've been thinking.

19. Anonymous said the following at 9:08 AM on Jan 7:

So here's my question, to all, when having "THE TALK", if you are entirely past everything you've gone through by the grace of God, is it okay to tell your potential spouse of your past addiction to pornography? Or would you leave that out?

20. Candice Watters said the following at 9:11 AM on Jan 7:

For the record, as the author of one of those Q&As that Thomas Jeffries references, I agree. Thanks TJ for bringing up this very important point and sharing that wise advice.

21. Steve said the following at 10:16 AM on Jan 7:

Reading all these comments got me thinking. Is the need to know about past details for God's glory and the protection of the sacred marriage? Or is it in a way fueling the flesh for your own curiosity, to give an excuse for your own sin. This question should be asked before going into details.
Also, someone's past is a part of them. Perhaps it is what God used in their life to bring that person to Christ. What was evil, God can use for good. So if the sin brought this person to Christ and eventually into a marriage that would not have happened otherwise, we can rejoice and marvel at the workings of the Lord to bring good to us. All this despite none deserving any of it.

22. Jenny said the following at 10:16 AM on Jan 7:

I agree that less is usually more in the area of knowledge about ones relationship history. There are certain questions that need to be answered, but overall, more details only stir up the memories for the one and create unhelpful thoughts for the other.

One thing that isn't fully addressed here is sexual sin after someone is a Christian. How far in the past should such sins be for a person to be counted trustworty? I know there is not a specific length of time that can be stated, but the transition from being unsaved to regenerated is a clearer distinction than when a person has sexual sin in their recent past while they were saved.

23. Stephanie said the following at 10:16 AM on Jan 7:

I second Liz and Anonymous....if you haven't ever consummated a relationship, yet you've struggled with pornography/masturbation/fantasies/fill-in-the-blank, what do you share? Do you share?

24. TINA said the following at 10:57 AM on Jan 7:

CERTAIN ISSUES SHOULD BE KEPT IN THE PAST WHEN WE BECOME SAVED THE LORD TELLS US WE OUR WASHED WHITE AS SNOW AND TO BE REMINDED OF PAST MISTAKES ON A CONSTANT BASIS ONLY BRING THE BLAH OF THE PAST INTO THE FUTURE LIKE THE STORY OF OLD AND NEW WINE SKINS OR OLD COALS TO NEW CASTLES..FORGET WHAT LIES BEHIND AND PRESS FORWARD TOWARDS THE MARK IS A GOOD EXAMPLE CHRIST DONT HOLD US TO THE PAST PEOPLE ONLY CAN IF YOU LET THEM..THE QUESTION OF BEEING TESTED IS WISE HOWEVER LEAVE IT THERE GET THE TEST FOR STD AND MOVE ON HOPEFULLY THE ONE YOU WANT TO BE WITH IS ALL GOOD SO YOU CAN SPEND YOUR LIVES TOGETHER....LEARN FROM YOUR PAST MISTAKES AND DONT BRING THEM ON THE JOURNEY OF YOUR FUTURE

25. Peter said the following at 1:28 PM on Jan 7:

Someone mentioned soul ties that you could have to an ex. I personally don't think this is a biblical concept. Where do you find evidence for this?

26. TINA said the following at 4:47 PM on Jan 7:

PETER, WHEN JESUS WAS SPEAKING TO THE PHARISEES MATTHEW 19 ABOUT DIVORCE HE ALSO STATED,"TWO WILL BECOME ONE FLESH,SO THEY ARE NO LONGER TWO BUT ONE" WHEN WE ENGAGE TOGETHER SEXUALLY WE BECOME ONE IF BY CHANCE THE DOORS ARE NOT CLOSED BEFORE MARRIAGE I BELIEVE YOU ARE ATTACHED.......THERE ARE MANY OTHER REF. TO THIS IN THE BIBLE.....GENESIS 2:19-25,ECCLESIASTES 9:7-10 CORINTHIANS 7;EPHESIANS 5:22-23 ALTHOUGH THESE ARE REF. TO MARRIAGE PRINCIPLES WE GET TO UNDERSTAND THE BOND.......ALSO IF YOU LOOK IN THE BIBLE AND SEARCH FOR SEXUAL SIN IT WILL GIVE YOU A BETTER UNDERSTANDING...

27. Matt from DC said the following at 4:48 PM on Jan 7:

Hxcjf,

I don't understand where you're going with the whole erase any "connection" to past relationships. How far do you take that?

What would you do if you were married, had some children, and you divorced your wife? Would you get rid of the children? That sounds silly. Also, should you get rid of anything that she touched? Does this include you?

Your idea sounds interesting and a bit gnostic. I wouldn't conflate wiping out the memory of a relationship with the destruction of idols.

Peter,

Though Hxcjf's soul ties theory sounds off base there are intimate connections between man and wife. God said "...and the two shall become one flesh." By this he means that a man and woman are united physically and spiritually. It is blatantly obvious when you sever the relationship. It is accurate to compare the breaking of a one flesh union to a compound fracture. It is like a compound emotional fracture.

28. Michelle said the following at 8:58 AM on Jan 8:

What are your thoughts on talking about non-sexual past relationships with someone you are courting/dating? Is it helpful to ask how many people they have dated in the past? Whether they were serious (heading towards engagement), long-term, etc?

Thoughts?

29. Read said the following at 8:58 AM on Jan 8:

A compound emotional fracture... I like that a lot. In fact I think that's one of the better descriptions I've heard. For the non-eagle scouts out there, a compound fracture occurs when a bone breaks so severally that it punctures the skin and protrudes leaving a very visible wound. Think of a heart breaking so badly that it hurts you from the inside out causing a visible wound. A compound fracture has to be set back in place (causing even MORE pain) and then the wound bandaged so it can heal and a cast placed on. It often leaves a scar.

Sometimes it seems this is how God has to deal with our broken hearts. He has to set our compound emotional fracture back in place so that it can mend properly, even though He knows it will cause us great pain before the healing begins.

That was my mini epiphany for the evening. Thanks Matt from DC!

30. Kelly said the following at 9:03 AM on Jan 8:

(sigh) Once again, the majority of examples in this article are presenting the woman as the non-virgin. (Even discounting those related to the original articles.)

Can you please use gender-neutral language for topics such as this?!

31. BDB said the following at 10:11 AM on Jan 8:

Hmmm...I'm not an expert on relationship communication by any means, but since no one is answering Liz's question, I have the following observatons:

First, don't lie if you are asked a direct question. Lying is bad for trust.

Second, be honest about areas where you need to be held accountable. I know men who ask their wives (or fiancees) to set the password on their computer filter software, and give them veto power over which movies and TV shows they watch.

Finally, in Elisabeth Elliot's Quest for Love, Chapter 27 - Grace Greater than All our Sin - has a thoughtful discussion of how much infomation to volunteer and when. One question that was posed by a woman was whether she had a right to seek peace for herself at the expense of her husband's peace.

The movie Spanglish has an interesting scene involving this question. I would encourage you to watch the movie and consider how it is handled.

Personally, I would prefer not knowing all the lurid details. If a woman is crying and says she's "made mistakes..." and then trails off, that's pretty much enough to assume that extending grace will be necessary.

32. BDB said the following at 10:12 AM on Jan 8:

As an amusing sidelight to what-they-don't-know-won't-hurt-them...

My small group from church is selecting a book to go through as a group for the next few months. Several of the couples have been married for 20 years or more, and one suggested doing a relationship book.

But they seemed terribly concerned that I might be offended. At first, I was confused at this. Then I realized that they weren't aware of my hobby posting the occasional comment on a blog.

I think I can survive going through a relationship book recommended by Focus on the Family...

33. Matt from DC said the following at 1:28 PM on Jan 8:

Kelly,

Does it offend your sense of holiness that the majority of the examples were sinful women?

Or is Thomas sinning by referencing more sinful women than man?

Would you have commented and requested gender neutrality if the majority of the examples were sinful men?

34. Thomas Jeffries said the following at 1:34 PM on Jan 8:

Kelly (#30), are you referring to the original post? After all, I made an effort to alternate my references to gender. The point of the post has nothing to do with whether the non-virgin in questions is the man or the woman. For that matter, there are countless cases where both individuals are non-virgins, but one has much more sexual experience than the other.

You can rest assured that I had no pro-male "gender agenda" in mind when I wrote it.

35. TINA said the following at 8:48 AM on Jan 9:

DC-MATT FIRST MY NAME AS YOU CAN READ IS TINA SO WHATEVER YOU MEAN BY HXCJF GOD BLESS YA.....SECOND I NEVER SAID ERASE CONNETION FROM PEOPLE,CHILDREN,PLACES THINGS,ETC..YOU MISS READ MY MEANING.THAT IS SILLY....WHAT I MEAN IF YOU READ THE SCRIPTURES IS WE ARE JOINED TOGHETER SEXUALLY AND BECOME ONE FLESH WE BECOME ONE YA KNOW UNITED TOGETER SAME ACCORD!I HAPPEN TO BE A DIVORCED WOMEN AND RE-MARRIED AND YES I CLOSED ANY SEXUAL TIES TO PAST RELATIONSHIPS NOT TO THE PERSON..ME AND MY EX HAPPEN TO BE VERY GOOD FRIENDS TILL THIS DAY....YOU WERE BEING A BIT JUDGEMENTAL SUGGESTING GNOSTIC DONT YA THINK? THANK GOD I AM NOT A NEW CHRISTIAN THAT MIGHT HAVE HURT ME OR CAUSED CONFUSION IN MY LIFE....AND FUTHER MORE IF YOU WERE TRYING TO HELP SOMEONE SEE YOUR POINT ADDRESSING THEM IN BIZZARE FASHION SUCH AS HXCJF OR JUDGEMENT WILL NOT HELP ANYONE WHAT IF I JUST BECAME SAVED ? THE WAY YOU HANDLED A FRIENDLY ENCOURAGING LITTLE NOTE WAS MIND BOGGLING MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK UP THOSE ENCOURAGING SCRIPTURES.....PEACE OF CHRIST SORRY IF YOU BECAME ANGRY AT MY RESPONSE HOWEVER THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ME THATS SOMETHING IN YOU...

36. Kelly said the following at 8:51 AM on Jan 9:

Thomas Jeffries - I didn't suspect you had a pro-male agenda, but using more of the 'female-in-the-wrong' examples is a trend I have noticed in the MAJORITY of online articles on this topic. It's as simple as mentioning 'past abortions' rather than 'unknown fatherhood': the former example gets tossed around much more often than the latter.

After all, society expects that men will have a "few indiscretions" here and there; even the Bible doesn't mention the consequences in the explicit terms that it mentions for women!

(I could go through this one and count examples but that would be pedantic. ;)

Matt, I probably would have commented with praise if gender-neutral language was used the whole way through.

It's just that every time I see articles like this, I feel like I'm the last older female virgin left on the planet and that gets VERY disheartening. (As I've commented before, my hard line on sex is what has caused most of my relationships to end. It's a very sensitive topic for me.)

And finally, on other threads, at least 2 men have declared that they, as virgins, will NOT marry a non-virgin as if it's such a heinous, non-forgivable thing.

I have yet to see a woman say the same thing about a potential husband. Again, it's due to the expectation that men's purity is so much less likely so why even bother mentioning it?

We DO need to mention it. We need to ensure our Christian brothers are just as accountable as our Christian sisters.

37. Tami said the following at 11:19 AM on Jan 9:

BDB -- A big ol' guess here, but if your small group wants to discuss Eggerichs' book Love and Respect, do it! :) If they're still worried that as a single man you won't get much out of it, tell 'em that this unmarried girl you know via a blog said she read it and learned a lot. ;)

38. IMO said the following at 11:25 AM on Jan 9:

"(As I've commented before, my hard line on sex is what has caused most of my relationships to end. It's a very sensitive topic for me.)"

Amen sister! You should be proud of your hard line, fully supported by your family and friends as well.

Who ARE these guys who don't respect your hard line? Ugh. I hope you are rewarded handsomely (sp?) for your faithfulness here on earth with an amazing man! They are out there, contrary to popular belief.

39. Jo said the following at 11:26 AM on Jan 9:

Tina (comment 35):

Matt was responding to hxcjf (comment 17), who said that someone's husband should get rid of all 'soul ties' to his ex-girlfriends (including his journals).

You seem to be saying something different to hxcjf. How would you define 'sexual ties'? You seem to be saying that these ties are not with the person themselves (since you're still friends with your ex-husband) - I'm just not quite sure what you're meaning about the ties you have broken?

40. BDB said the following at 2:25 PM on Jan 9:

Tami (#37) wrote:

>>A big ol' guess here, but if your small group wants to discuss Eggerichs' book Love and Respect, do it! :) <<

OK, that's just EERIE...yes, that's the book...apparently there's a DVD series...maybe it's a CD series, I dunno...

Which reminds me,

TINA-PLEASE TAKE OFF YOUR CAPS LOCK. IT COMES ACROSS AS YELLING!

41. BDB said the following at 4:30 PM on Jan 9:

TINA-LOOK AT THE COMMENTER NAME FOR #17

And please remove CAPS LOCK.

42. Liz said the following at 4:32 PM on Jan 9:

Thomas, you did a great job...don't worry about Kelly's "gender-neutral" view. I entirely disagree in her reasoning on that. She can hold that opinion, but she's in the minority...don't worry about it. Good for her for still being a virgin...that's great, but I don't understand how someone could be so offended by mentioning someone of the same gender that isn't? It makes no sense.

Do not use gender-neutral language. Before, people used to be like this: Men struggle with sex and lust and women are anorexic and bulimic. Obviously, we know both are true for both genders and should treated with equality, in the sense that both actually struggle with this. I am thankful for the recognition that men are not the only ones that have struggles...it's an eye-opening thing that NO ONE should be ashamed of it getting attention.

Articles that are geared towards male lust don't always help women...so I am thankful for using women in the article. Now, if Kelly is against helping other women... so be it. But as for you, I give you props.

43. Tami said the following at 4:32 PM on Jan 9:

BDB -- Not TOO eerie... I know it's popular, good, and FOTF-approved :)

44. Liz said the following at 8:22 PM on Jan 9:

45. BDB said the following at 8:27 PM on Jan 9:

Tami (#43) wrote:

>>Not TOO eerie... I know it's popular, good, and FOTF-approved :)<<

Yeah, we were meeting at my house, so I pulled it up on Amazon during the meeting so we could discuss the idea. I said, "Well, he's a psychologist, and I don't believe in social science, but FOTF has good stuff."

They said, "Um, no, we mean the subject matter."

I'll tell them I heard a good recommendation...

46. Leah said the following at 9:44 AM on Jan 12:

Kelly (36)- oh, come on. The men like to say they get blamed more on here, the women like to say they are. Truth is, nobody is. Everyone gets equal treatment. Stop taking a little example like the abortion comment and making it somehow representative of the author's entire attitude to the issue. Men get called out for not taking initiative in relationships, when common sense tells us women are just as much to blame for relationship problems. Women get called out for abortions when we know men are capable of making bad sexual-related decisions too. Don't need to get pedantic. A little bit of common sense goes a long way.

(And for what it's worth, men are just as capable of being involved in an abortion decision as a woman is. It's not an unknown scenario for a guy to bully his girlfriend into an abortion. A past abortion could just as easily be in a man's past as a woman's).

You say And finally, on other threads, at least 2 men have declared that they, as virgins, will NOT marry a non-virgin as if it's such a heinous, non-forgivable thing.

I have yet to see a woman say the same thing about a potential husband. Again, it's due to the expectation that men's purity is so much less likely so why even bother mentioning it?

No, it's not due to the expectation that men are less likely to be pure. It's because for men, sex is usually a more important topic than it is for women. These men are wrong, in my opinion, to say that they refuse to marry a non-virgin. But their decision does not somehow say "men are allowed to be impure but women aren't." In fact, it probably goes too far in the opposite direction- "I'm pure, so you have to be too."

You also said We DO need to mention it. We need to ensure our Christian brothers are just as accountable as our Christian sisters.

Ha! The idea that Christian men are not accountable (as opposed to women) when it comes to sexuality is just laughable. Men often say- and on this count, I agree with them, though I do think it's for good reason- that they're often more hounded about sex and related issues than women are. Everyone thinks porn, masturbation, and infidelity are men's problems and all the accountability programs etc are aimed at men. When the truth is that women can be involved in those things too (though not as often, that's true), and they need to be held accountable too.

Tina- you're saying the right stuff, but LEARN WHERE YOUR CAPSLOCK KEY IS AND NEVER USE IT ONLINE. EVER. WE CAN READ LOWER CASE LETTERS. EASIER THAN ALL-CAPS. AND WE'D RATHER NOT BE SHOUTED AT. Also, if you read Matt DC's comment properly, you'll see HXCJF is an entirely different commenter. And don't try guilting him about being "Judgmental"... it's not judgmental to take a guess at someone's belief based upon their comments. Not to mention he wasn't even talking to you.

Anonymous (19)- Absolutely tell them about previous porn addictions. Don't need to go into details about it, but do mention it. I do think you should exchange a *brief outline* of sexual histories- eg. whether you've had sex before (and I do think the number of people you've had sex with might be beneficial to know, but this really depends on the specific person), what other sexual problems you've had- masturbation, porn, etc. You don't have to say WHAT you watched or HOW you masturbated or HOW it made you feel etc etc- those details really aren't necessary- but the basic outline? Yes. It gives the person a better understanding of you, or where you have come from.

47. TINA said the following at 9:48 AM on Jan 12:

I am sorry about the cap locks i did not know it meant that..did not realize matt was ref. to # 17...i appologize...ok what i mean by closing the door to any sexual ties .......this is just my opinion from what i get out of the scriptures and i am open to hear others views.....I believe when we have sexual contact we connect not only in the act of also spiritually......so when we bond in that way and become one with some one then there is a conncetion..so in prayer i choose to close any sexual ties to my past...spirits attach themselves and if its un-clean only through prayer can it be brooken...

48. Jo said the following at 2:59 PM on Jan 12:

Tina 47:
Okay, but what do you mean by 'close sexual ties'? What does that involve? Sorry, I'm just curious - not quite understanding the terminology!

49. Anonymous said the following at 2:59 PM on Jan 12:

I don't see anything to be gained by going into details about previous relationships (I don't need to know the equivalent of verbal porn involving my now-husband and his former girlfriends) but some things should not be left to be discovered, or glossed over so that one partner believes something that's not true. I was allowed to believe certain things about my husband's past, and then when helping with medical paperwork for a routine doctor visit, found that there were twice as many sexual partners as I'd been told. Frankly, I don't think I should have had to find out that way.

50. Frank Martens said the following at 3:01 PM on Jan 12:

Did you hear about the girl who auctioned off her virginity?

51. Christina (was in white for a day) said the following at 9:53 AM on Jan 13:

I was open from the get-go. Though clearly I didn't succeed, I wanted to wait til marriage - badly.

I knew he didn't have the same conviction on pre-marital sex that I had - apparently it was something his parents never really talked about...the taboo subject (though surprisingly they were very well disciplined in the area of Porn...).

It was crucial to me that if he were to ever find out that I was not a virgin, that my witholding from him had nothing to do with him. So, first week of dating, I told him - "I'm not a virgin, but I really want to wait until marriage."

Shortly after that, his history came out. I was careful only to ask questions that I felt were relevant to our future together. I knew he wasn't a virgin, so I didn't bother with that question. But I wanted to know if he was habitual, a maniac, an addict - "How many?" Admittedly, the number was a bit high to me, so my 2nd question was about the encounters - were they relationships or one night stands? Were they serious relationships or simply flings? Again, it was something that I felt would be a reflection on a future with him - does he take sex totally lightly? Is it just a casual activity to him? Is it something he would do with just anyone, regardless of relationships that he was currently in? Thank goodness, his answer was that they had all been in serious relationships.

And then, that ultimate question - "Are you clean?" The answer was yes.

As for forgiving and forgetting, the hardest part about forgiving is when you are untouched by that particular sin. It was easy for me to look past his weakness with sex because of my own. I don't know if I would have been ok with it if I hadn't ever done that, but I think I would have. Even when I was sweet 16 and never been kissed, I knew I wouldn't mind if the guy wasn't a virgin.

Just like forgiving and forgetting with ANYTHING, forgiveness is a discipline...and looking past a sin for the long term is also a discipline. Jesus wasn't kidding when he said to forgive 70x7 times. There will be some offenses out there that you will not be able to say "I forgive you" and you automatically have forgiven that person. It will be a constant exercise - daily, hourly, minutely - to forgive for that ONE offense. Its an action, not a feeling. "I forgive you" is a lot like "I love you" - regardless of your feelings at any given moment, the action of forgiveness and love need to be acted on out of a discipline that comes from a devotion to God and devotion to that person you are trying to forgive.

Actually, Boundless had an article a LONG time ago about the discipline of forgiveness - and the pain that makes forgiveness more of a lifetime pursuit that a single moment's act of generosity. I don't remember the title but i did a search on forgiveness when I was struggling with forgiving someone for something they did to me. I strongly suggest anyone struggling with forgiving someone to read it.

52. Christina (was in white for a day) said the following at 9:53 AM on Jan 13:

Hah!

I found it!
To Forgive is to Surrender

53. TINA said the following at 9:57 AM on Jan 13:

Jo #48 as we know demonic spirits try to attach themselves to us and if our house is not clean they enter...if they return they come back 10 times stronger they bring friends....if we ingage in sex with someone who has them spirits around them (can even be unknown to them) something so simple as the spirit of jealousy what is attacking them will try to attack you and if you dont grab the right weapon to war you will be under attack even though yes the battle has already been won and JESUS is the one that fights our battles however he does it with us we need to participate in the battle go boldly before the thrown like GODS word says....it is JESUS who made that possible...this does not only apply to sexual ties it can be a place you go to or something on a co-worker that trys to attach it self to you...the only way to break things of this nature is to( so to speak) close the door sealed with the blood of JESUS never to be open again...dont matter if its a one nightstand or a long relationship if you connect on a sexual level whatever there battles are can try to come against you only prayer can close the door so that it can not enter.......i hope im making sense i am not a good writter more of a talker and i know what my brain is trying to say..put it this way we know we become one so for me i want one with less baggage.....i have enough of my own theres no more room........he ha..LOL...on a serious note i have had struggles that when they came back with those lovely friends who are 10 times stronger it can be very easy to slip back and before you know it your living the way you fought so hard not to can happen to anyone......so again i say for me i close doors i had to nail a few and get out the screw gun beleive me LOL.....but in prayer i asked the lord to close all sexual ties to my past before i married my husband so that nothing would be attatched to us accept us becoming one...no riders allowed he ha.......and he also did the same..for us it was cool...my pre-marital sex did not include many people however for me it was still wrong...again i say for me...we all have different convictions.....

54. TINA said the following at 9:57 AM on Jan 13:

Jo i seem to have went off on a bunch of diff. directions sorry.....realized after i hit post and then went back to read my blubbering....sex was meant for man and wife GOD says nothing about boyfriend and girlfriend,one nightstands,friends with benifts...except that; that behavior causes trouble in our life....and yes i know the old test.men had more then one however JESUS changed all that and i might ad sorry ladies men were permitted to have more then one not us......marriage is for those of us that are not strong enough to abstain from sexual desire paul teaches us that..however paul like JESUS never that i ever read states girl/boy friend,friend with benifts and so on he clearly defines marriage the LORD does the same......so in my mind if we become one we become alike we are one so whatever effects one effects the other because we are no longer two but one...hence i beleive in closing any ties sexually to past lovers before marriage..i even closed any sexual ties to my first husband maybe thats why we can be such good friends today i look at him as a friend not a ex-lover?dont know...put it this way it is not the piece of paper that makes us one thats a contract. It is the sexual incounter so whether we are married or not we become one when we have sex and let us not forget what JESUS said to the samaritain women at the well how she had what 5 husbands and wasnt even ever married(JOHN 4:17-18)so that says to me there is a conection untill broken/door closed however you want to pray it and say it...

55. Bryan said the following at 11:20 AM on Nov 17:

Fantastic advice and well written article on a tough topic. As a youth pastor, I face teens every week struggling with purity and will one day have to address these issues with a future spouse. Thanks for the Godly counsel!
Bryan

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