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Giving in Tough Times
by Heather Koerner on 01/27/2009 at 1:39 PM

William Lobdell worked for eight years covering the religion beat for the LA Times. More recently, he has written a book, Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith Reporting on Religion in America -- And Found Unexpected Peace.

Lobdell now states that he "reluctantly, no longer believes in God." Today on his blog, Lobdell poses a question, "Do Christians and atheists act differently?" He points to stats about divorce and racism in the church, but camps more on what proclaiming Christians do with their money:

"[E]vangelical Christians give more to charity. But there’s a catch. Evangelicals believe that the Bible commands them to give 10% to the church/charity. In fact, only 8% of evangelicals tithe. And on average, they give about 3% to the church/charity (down from 6% in 1968). Yes, it’s more than atheists, but nothing to brag about."

In a World magazine article titled "Profound Witness," Lobdell is quoted as saying, "Evangelicals don't give anywhere near 10 percent of their income to charity. Only a very few, often on the fringes of mainstream or evangelical Christianity, behave with their money as if they believe the Gospel is actually true."

The article's authors point to research that shows that Lobdell is half-right. Evangelical Christians are far and away the most generous Americans, but we fall far short of the biblically commanded tithe that most churches teach.

Still, I'd have to agree with Lobdell that the church has nothing to brag about. In the World article, Randy Alcorn, the author of several books on Christians and their money, called these statistics "a shame" and said that Christians' giving is a "powerful witness of the gospel" and "the greatest form of evangelism." Alcorn believes that in tough financial times, our giving can be an even more powerful witness:

"For one thing, in tough times Christian charity is needed all the more. For another, the testimony of that giving is even more profound. Giving in tough times tells the world that it is God's providence, not a large checking account, that is the source of our sustenance and security."

There's a real temptation in financially skittish times to hold tighter to our money and give less. But, I have to ask myself, what will holding onto it accomplish? More than likely it will cultivate my love of it and send the world a very powerful testimony that I don't believe the Gospel is true. That I don't believe my God can fulfill His promise.

That would be a shame.

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1

I'm kinda ridiculous about "tithing" and charity.

To me, tithing to the church should be acceptable in the form of monetary or time giving.

I have a tendency to give more than I probably, should though. I bounced my checking account in December when everyone kept sending the holiday charity requests...Children's Hospital, Breast Cancer, World Vision, Church... and to top it off, my radio station hasn't met their needs for the year...

Now that I'm married, I have someone to be accountable to with my money. So we came to an agreement on where my money is allowed to go - World Vision, church, and the radio station.

Unfortunately, its at World Vision only right now...

Yeah, hard times are not so cool for the giving...either are major life changes =/ But then I'm not from a church that preaches the required 10% tithe...they just preach stewardship and giving.


2

the stats used in these discussions are often skewed at best. during premarital counseling we were discussing the importance of remaining involved in a church and it was noted that while half of all marriages end in divorce, the numbers for couples who are actively involved (as in more than just regular attendance) are significantly better. it was more like one in a thousand than one in two.


3

"Evangelicals believe that the Bible commands them to give 10% to the church/charity."

This is surprising because in my experience, Evangelical churches that teach the tithe as a requirement are very much the exception, not the rule.

The point of the blog is right on though. We should give - even in the rough times. God has promised to supply our needs.


4

One thing I've been thinking about a lot as I'm feeling crunched in my personal economy is that, if I save or invest in the stock market, I'm not sure what will happen to the money. Will it grow or just sit or dissapear.

But, if I invest in God's kingdom the money will be well invested and who knows what "interest rate" God will give it.

As I re-evaluate my new budget I'm challenged to try to make sure God' priorities take priorty in my plan.


5

I have heard it said, and I believe it to be a fair statement, that "If you want to know what someone believes and values, then look at their checkbook." Jesus said the same thing - where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I honestly am tired and worn out of all the "Christians" in the U.S. that claim to love God, but worry more about the hosue they are going to buy, or the new car, or sending their kids to an expensive private school, or buying the newest cool electronic toy, rather than trying help others and spread the gospel.

Francis Chan has a great quote, which I will paraphrase: "Too many Christians care more about their standard of living than they do about some people living." Do you get that? What he is saying is that we care more about our new house than about saving orphans or starving people throughout the world. Sad. Truly sad.

Having said that, I also understand that this "disease of the self" (as Charlie Peacock called it in his great song "In the Light") runs rampant through my blood as well. So, to counteract it, I make it my goal to give more away (i.e., a higher percentage of my income) each year than I did before. This is a small way to take up my cross daily and put my selfish desires to death. But, it has really helped me to be much more generous and it has helped me to look first at giving to others and the spread of the gospel before looking at what I can buy for myself.

I would hope that all who claim the name of Christ would take a sobor look at ourselves in this area and seek to crucify the area of our finances to Him.

Peace and grace!


6

Money is the root of all evil...that's all I'm gonna say,because this is so sad......imagine our father in heaven he is reading this,thunderous tears fall from his eyes,his heart crying out upon the land...is this what my people have become...we all need to remember Lucifer was given 1,000 years to deceive,kill,steal,and destroy...the very meaning of the Gospel that is in us...Lobdells peace is deception...never let another mans sins detour you from what you know. We are only accountable for ourselves and are required to be an example to others...that's where the rubber meets the road and true meaning of being a christian comes out..somebody better hit that boy in the head with a frying pan and get him back to the altar...imagine what a cool testimony for Christ..we all back slide and some times fall that's part of being human.Just dont live there to long the pain it causes sometimes takes years to unravel...What Lobdell experience in his heart was no different then how Jesus felt trying to teach the Gospel when he walked the earth...you cant lose heart...the beauty of this is Lobdell has open himself up for many, many, many believers to pray for him he will undoubtedly some how be prayed back into his position in Gods army and oohhhhh how much stronger he will be,then of coarse that gives him the opportunity to write the "restoration" book...back to my faith...cant wait!! now that one i would read.....Well i thought i was gonna only say one thing.....


7

I'd like to see stats on countries besides the US - I bet this is yet another issue stemming from the fact that in the States, "everybody" is religious, so you have lots of people calling themselves evangelicals who don't take their faith all that seriously. I bet giving is higher in countries where you don't call yourself an evangelical unless you mean it.


8

I've been unemployed a few times, living off my bank account. It was tempting to keep 100% of any windfall money that came my way. It was an act of faith to put that ten-plus percent in the offering plate.

My theory about God asking for ten percent is that he knew in the future, many societies (including the USA) would have decimal-based money systems.

Need to know how much ten percent is of an amount? It's so easy; just move the decimal point one position to the left! We could have ended up with a hexadecimal (base 60, compared to base 10) monetary system instead, for example.


9

By the way - ugh - I just read the - ugh - LA Times article. What's missing from the guy's "conversion" story? Any mention of having any knowledge about the evidence for the truth of the bible and Christ's resurrection.

All he talks about is "feeling the Holy Spirit spread across his heart". For crying out loud, that's what the Mormons say. No wonder he "lost his faith" - in was never grounded in anything to begin with.


10

Texas Craig,

I actually agree with this,

that claim to love God, but worry more about the hosue they are going to buy, or the new car, or sending their kids to an expensive private school, or buying the newest cool electronic toy, rather than trying help others and spread the gospel.

That is true, I agree with you. I'm sure you're shocked, but since you and I have tangled over this before, I have a question to ask,

how much of ones income is it ok to spend on housing? transportation? food? insurance? health care? beside the tithe,

now, if you chose to spend more, or less than me on any one of those things, whose business is it to know? Should there be a special committee at church looking over the shoulder of each member checking the percentages? How about a government agency? Some bureaucrat to go through the numbers and tell you that you can only spend x amount on this or that?

I believe that Scripture teaches personal responsibility and individual soul liberty. That each one of us will answer to the Creator for how we handle our money, but we are free to spend our money how we wish, within the dictates of our conscience.

So I have a follow up question, why are you so willing to hand over 30% of your income without complaint, and why do so many only give 10% to God, but think nothing of handing over 30% to .........


11

I am always amazed by these statistics and accompanying discussions among Christians. My first allowance as a child was 40 cents spending, 10 cents tithe and 50 cents saving. I don't kow whether it's the way I was raised or if God as just blessed me, but tithing has never been a spiritual struggle for me. It's just something you do.

I have always tithed a 10%, which currently works out to about 16% of my take-home pay. I used to tithe 10% of my net, but then heard in a sermon "If you have to ask which it should be (net or gross), then you know the answer."

Apparently I'm an exception, but I can say with confidence that God has always been faithful to provide my every need (and many wants).


12

Money is not the root of all evil, it's the LOVE of money that is a root of all evil (1 Tim 6:10). Money is just a tool, it's how you use it.

That's why Christians, more than anyone, need to be good money stewards! Why? Because our tithes matter and they finance the kingdom. How can we support God's work if we are in debt, living paycheck to paycheck, and not investing for our future (so we are not dependent on others or the state in our old age).


13

Rebekah (#4):

Yes, that is a great motivation for me as well. In my "finances" spreadsheet, I have two graphs. One plots my savings as a function of time. While generally heading upward (yay!), it does decrease sometimes, like during the last six months.

The other plot is the money I've given away as a function of time. It never decreases! And, as you say, there's no way to quantify how God compounds the "interest" as He uses it to build His kingdom.

I use this to remind myself what my priorities are every time I look at my finances.


14

We give the same percentage we have given for the last few years, but it is less. This has nothing to do with the economy, just the fact that I'm no longer working full-time. But that still contributed to the drop in giving our church saw this last fall.


15

1. Christina (in green):

"Now that I'm married. . ."

How did I miss that. Congratulations!

You'll have to bring him by Boundless sometime and introduce him.


16

Farmer Tom:

LOL! I love the way you repeated that we agree on this! :-)

Yes, we have tangled on many a number of things. But, having said that, I expect we have much in common as well.

In regard to your questions, I think the best thing is to have an accountability partner who we are close enough to that we can share about our finances and ask them to hold us accountable. That is half the battle when it comes to spiritual growth - i.e., having someone in our life who will challenge us and spur us on to love and good deeds.

I do not think it is the role of the church to oversee our finances, although that does raise an interesting issue. Namely, if church discipline should address the greedy, among others (i.e., in 1 Corinthians where Paul says we are not to associate with such people), how do we apply that? What level must one reach to be greedy? Similarly, an elder is not to be a "lover of money." How do we measure that? These are tough questions and, thankfully, I am not the one deciding those issues for my church body.

As for the 30% taken from us, I assume you are talking about taxes. I am not "happy" about that, but I also feel like there is little I can do to change it. I supported Ross Perot and the flat tax, and I would likely support a politician who genuinely favored lowering taxes in a fair and equitable way. But, as long as I cannot change it, I do not worry about it much. Ultimately, all I can control is what I do with what is left over after the government takes its huge cut. That is the part I must be accountable for.

And, truth be told, I make more than enough to be very comfortable, even after trying to give a fair amount away. I do not claim that there is a single standard of living that is sinful to live beyond. In fact, like my pastor said a few months ago, I think that "how much should I give?" is the wrong question to ask. Rather, the right question is "how much do I dare keep for myself?" That is the right question to ask in light of the parable of the stewards told by Jesus. It is not our money - rather we are stewards of the king's money. Therefore, if we are spending most of it on ourselves, rather than the king's purposes, there is a problem. We have become owners rather than stewards. I want to be able to stand before my King and hear Him say "well done, good and faithful servant." To hear that, then I think I need to live like the servant, and not the owner.

But, I do not attempt to judge any people specifically. Instead, I try to challenge people, because I fear we do not do that enough in the body of Christ. Those are my rambling thoughts.

Your thoughts, Farmer Tom?


17

I think it's probably true that Christians don't give enough, myself included.

I find tithing/giving the easy thing to do because I won't have to decide where that money will go. I trust the leaders of the church to make that decision.

But in the church I'm a part of in Russia, the pastors often encourage us to bless our brothers and sisters, rather than putting it in the offering basket. We may tithe out of obedience and feel we've done our job, yet how can we ignore a brother who doesn't have enough to eat?

In the U.S., many of us have enough for both tithe and offering, but when money is tight, it does become a sacrifice. But part of the sacrifice should consist of paying attention to a person's need, and taking a step of faith to offer help.


18

Some points on "tithing".

Abraham tithed on the spoils of battle, not (as far as the Bible tells us) on his income. This was common practice at the time, to give a portion of battle-loot to your king. Abraham's "king" was God Almighty, so he acted appropriately.

The Israelites were not commanded to tithe on their income, but on the fruit of the soil. Firstly, a farmer's "increase" and harvest are not his income, but his turnover. Those of you in business will understand, but those who live on wages may not. In business and in farming, "income" is what you have left after you've paid your business costs. For a farmer, a tithe of your increase is far more than a tithe of the equivalent wage. Secondly, even in an agricultural society, it beggars belief that there were no people who earned wages, or who sold artifacts. That there were no carpenters, builders, potters or professional entertainers. Yet no-where are they commanded to tithe their earnings, wages or the work of their hands. Only the fruit of the land was tithed... and that land was a "spoil of battle".

One of the most prominent commands in relation to the use of tithes was that the bringer of the tithe was to eat it himself, with his family, before the Lord. In order to do this, we would have to eat the equivalent of two meals - worth 10% of our income - per week in Church. The tithe was not just for widows, orphans and Levites, but for the givers as well. How many of you who tithe observe this?

There is no endorsement of tithing in the Bible for New Testament Christians. The only seeming such endorsement is when Christ, speaking as one OT Jew, to other OT Jews, endorses their tithe as appropriate under the law. We see no mention of tithing after Pentecost. The NT Church gave "as they were able", but they did not tithe.

Finally.. a tithe was not a gift. A tithe was commanded, it was owed, it was the property of God by right. How else could someone withholding a tithe be said to be "robbing" God. Paying what you owe is not giving a gift. In the NT, under grace, we "give". NOT because of promised blessings or curses, which would only be a commercial transaction. We give without expectation of return, for only then is what we give truly a gift.

Peter


19

I want more money!


20

"...but we fall far short of the biblically commanded tithe that most churches teach."

So is it commanded in the Bible and thus taught in churches? Or is it not commanded in the Bible and taught in chruches? I would say the latter.

It is expected to come to false conclusions when you start from a false foundation. Many people misunderstand Israel's income tax in support of the theocracy to apply directly to us. It doesn't. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in giving and don't think the Bible is silent about it. I just wouldn't use the tithe verses as the foundation for giving. When it comes to giving I use guiding principles. Here is a quick list that is not thorough and won't include passages as support ;)
1) What is given can range from spiritual things, to time, to activity, and to money. I can give my heart, my ways, my thoughts to God. I can give my time and my service to him like leading a Bible study. I can give my money.
2) When you give it should be sacrificial. Giving out of your wealth is not pleasing to God on the same level as giving when it costs you.
3) When you give you should do it with a glad heart. Also, do not give if you would regret it.
4) When making large or recurring gifts give first to your local church and next to parachurch organizations/ministries.
5) Think often of the Good Samaritan and as Jesus said, "Go and do likewise."


21

Tina,

First what Paul said to Timothy was 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." This verse is a single point from Jesus' parable of the soils. Luke 8:14 "The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature." Emphasis is mine. NoVA Girl in #12 is also correct in what she says.

What do you mean when you say "we all need to remember Lucifer was given 1,000 years to deceive,kill,steal,and destroy"? By Lucifer do you mean Christ and by "deceive, kill, steal, and destroy" do you mean reign? Or by "deceive, kill, steal, and destroy" do you mean was bound in the abyss? And by "was given" do you mean will be given? If you really mean what you said as you said it how did you come to find out about this? If you read it in the Bible where can I go to read it. Any way, only be on your guard again Satan and his schemes. Don't be concerned about the power of a cherub when you have the Living God the Lord of Hosts living inside you. It might be correct, though I am not sure, to have pity on Lucifer. He was once beautiful and held a great position, but as the minutes pass he comes closer to the abyss and finally the lake of fire.


22

#Matt from DC-Unfortunately what happen with my post is: I was posing a comment at the same time I was thinking of a person in my life that is going through a hard time with his Christianity and faith because of his current situation and for some reason both came out in my typing I know crazy but, its the truth. I realized after I posted it. Yes I was like OMG!!..Then i had to just laugh and say oh well God if it gets posted i take it humbly...I would however like explained to me how one can reluctantly no longer believe in God?My brain is not computing this?Is he saying he unwillingly no longer,by his choice because of other people?I'M not sure if I'm getting that sentence..


23

Tina that is a funny story.


24

Farmer Pete (#18):

First off, 4:23 a.m.?

You wrote, NOT because of promised blessings or curses, which would only be a commercial transaction. We give without expectation of return, for only then is what we give truly a gift.

Why is it, do you think, that Jesus repeatedly talks about blessings related to giving? Matt. 10:42--"he will certainly not lose his reward"; Luke 12:33: "Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys."

If Christ promises a reward, or treasure in heaven, and we take Him on His word, does that make our giving a commercial transaction?


25

MATT D.C.-I mean JOHN 10:10...Satan,Lucifer,The Devil,The enemy,whatever you call him is the thief,he tries to steal our salvation,or give us false reality deception....I watched a movie last night called a Prayer for Bobby.I cried like a baby and then woke up with a million questions to God and believe me I drove him nuts this morning including, my sister,I spent the morning looking in Gods word and my Holman Bible dictionary,praying for the answers...Even though my heart and spirit knew them already I still was heartbroken for this boy and his family...His mom who once believed as I do now is fighting for gay/lesbian rights..how?I think it started with guilt of not embracing her son in a Christ like manner because of her embarrassment,and knowing what our father says in his word she ran down the street with the fetus is what i call it, which even though what she was saying was biblicaly correct it was how her action of it that was a mistake..I think she blamed herself for her sons suicide..GOD does not condemn us guilt is not from him..the enemy tries to use that against us..God convicts our hearts,he disiples us.She could not look past her pain...allowing the circumstance to over shadow God..so not only did she loose her son she compromised her salvation...its kinda like when God tested Adam and Eve and Satan tempted them.. they chose the temptation...


26

Matt from D.C.-If you knew me you would laugh and say thats Tina her brain goes from one thing to the next in 0.5 seconds...I did that on another post Episode 53 I believe.Except that time my mind wondered on myself...I wanted to crawl in a hole on that one..this one just made me laugh..


27

Matt from D.C.-thanks for the tips in #20; they are helpful.

Tina, I couldn't watch beyond the first few minutes of "Prayers for Bobby" because I knew it was going to be heartbreaking. A sad, sad, story and probably not unique. Maybe this should be addressed on Boundless?


28

Heather K (#24)

I'm not sure howe the system works, but at that hour, I was very surely in bed.

Yes, Christ made promises and , becasuse He is faithful, they shall be kept. However we must also put them in context with the words of Paul in 1Cor13:3, "If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."

I have no need to tell you that love does not give in expectation of getting. It does not use giving as a means of gaining God's blessing in this world, contrary to the clear and explicit quid-pro-quo of Old Testament tithing.

Nor is the promise if blessing in the health, wealth or any other temporal area consistent with the experience of the New Testament saints. Probably none of us have given as much, served as dilligently, or walked with God as much as did the Apostles, yet their reward was not in this life.... unless you consider cold, hunger, danger, pain, desertion by friends, inprisonment and violent death to be "rewards". They certainly appear more like the curses of OT law, than the blessings.

God blesse, Yes!
He blessed me before I knew Him, before I gave Him a single cent or a moment of my attention. Everything I have comes from Him. If I give, I only give what He has placed in my stewardship, and should be a response to that which has already been given, not in hope of gaining in return.

I hope that explains my intent more clearly.

Peter


29

Amen, Farmer Pete!


30

Farmer Pete (#28): I was thinking with that 4:23am thing that you were one dedicated farmer! :)

Yes, it does clear up. You seem to be reacting against a prosperity theology--"if I give to God, then I get what I want...and I get it right now." A dishonest reading of the Scriptures, I agree.

But I still get the sense that you are inferring that if a Christian uses Christ's promised rewards as a piece of their motivation, that is somehow a less spiritual (or even an unspiritual) act.

You say that to give in love, we must give without expectation. But I don't think that giving with love and understanding Christ's rewards have to be mutually exclusive.

I'm reminded of Luke 6:35: "But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."

Randy Alcorn writes this:

"Of course, reward is not our only motivation. We should be motivated by gratitude to serve God (Heb. 12:28). We should be motivated by our ambition "to please him" (2 Cor. 5:9). But these motives are never in scriptural conflict with the motive of reward. The same Bible that calls upon us to obey God out of our love for Him as Father and Redeemer also calls upon us to obey out of our fear of Him as Creator and Judge and out of our hope in Him as Rewarder of those who serve Him. Each of these motivations is legitimate, and each complements the other. Sometimes we need the combined persuasiveness of all these incentives to do what is pleasing to the Lord. This isn't a matter of mixed motives (some good, some bad), but of multiple motives--multiple righteous motives."

I don't think we're disagreeing. You challenge us to give out of our gratitude. Amen! One would think, looking at the church's giving rates, that we are one ungrateful bunch. We should be challenged on that.

I would also challenge us to consider Christ's words. Heaven is in no way a reward for our good deeds. It is a gift freely given by our God in response to faith. We will, however, be judged as stewards (and rewarded or not). Christ calls us to forgo the rewards of this world for the eternal rewards He offers. We need to understand that our actions--specifically, our giving--have eternal consequences.

Paul wrote that if I give without love, I gain nothing. But he also looked forward to gaining a "crown that will last forever."


31

I don't see anywhere that God promises Christians they will always be comfortable. Sometimes, particularly when praying for growth or patience, you may be uncomfortable for a while while God teaches you something.

Giving, whether on the net, gross, or something greater, will affect your heart and how much control money and possessions have over you. Some even suggest that if you have a lot of clutter around the house, it's because you're letting your possessions control you too much.

You may find it MORE difficult to give when employed - especially if you're just starting out your career. I know I did. But once it became a 'normal' part of my faith, it was actually pretty easy to continue giving during a period of extended unemployment. Granted, income dropped, and giving dropped with it. But either God is God or He isn't. He didn't say only give when it's easy - Jesus specifically pointed to the widow who was giving when it was hard.


32

John Stossel pointed out some important truths in Private charity would do much more — if government hadn't crowded it out.

Americans were much more charitable before the unbiblical and unconstitutional expansion of government into welfare.

Before FDR made the depression "great" with his tax-and-spend (see the book FDR's Folly), one in three American men were members of mutual aid societies, which paid for doctors, built orphanages and cooked for the poor. Now they have been crowded out: how organizatations relying on voluntary donations compete with bureaucracies that have a guaranteed income coerced from taxpayers at gunpoint?

Also, people have less to give thanx to rapacious punitive taxation — strange that lefties never call government greedy for wanting more and more of our money. And they have less inclination to give, because they think, "Why should I? It's the government's job to take care of them."


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Giving in Tough Times
by Heather Koerner on 01/27/2009 at 1:39 PM

William Lobdell worked for eight years covering the religion beat for the LA Times. More recently, he has written a book, Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith Reporting on Religion in America -- And Found Unexpected Peace.

Lobdell now states that he "reluctantly, no longer believes in God." Today on his blog, Lobdell poses a question, "Do Christians and atheists act differently?" He points to stats about divorce and racism in the church, but camps more on what proclaiming Christians do with their money:

"[E]vangelical Christians give more to charity. But there’s a catch. Evangelicals believe that the Bible commands them to give 10% to the church/charity. In fact, only 8% of evangelicals tithe. And on average, they give about 3% to the church/charity (down from 6% in 1968). Yes, it’s more than atheists, but nothing to brag about."

In a World magazine article titled "Profound Witness," Lobdell is quoted as saying, "Evangelicals don't give anywhere near 10 percent of their income to charity. Only a very few, often on the fringes of mainstream or evangelical Christianity, behave with their money as if they believe the Gospel is actually true."

The article's authors point to research that shows that Lobdell is half-right. Evangelical Christians are far and away the most generous Americans, but we fall far short of the biblically commanded tithe that most churches teach.

Still, I'd have to agree with Lobdell that the church has nothing to brag about. In the World article, Randy Alcorn, the author of several books on Christians and their money, called these statistics "a shame" and said that Christians' giving is a "powerful witness of the gospel" and "the greatest form of evangelism." Alcorn believes that in tough financial times, our giving can be an even more powerful witness:

"For one thing, in tough times Christian charity is needed all the more. For another, the testimony of that giving is even more profound. Giving in tough times tells the world that it is God's providence, not a large checking account, that is the source of our sustenance and security."

There's a real temptation in financially skittish times to hold tighter to our money and give less. But, I have to ask myself, what will holding onto it accomplish? More than likely it will cultivate my love of it and send the world a very powerful testimony that I don't believe the Gospel is true. That I don't believe my God can fulfill His promise.

That would be a shame.

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1

I'm kinda ridiculous about "tithing" and charity.

To me, tithing to the church should be acceptable in the form of monetary or time giving.

I have a tendency to give more than I probably, should though. I bounced my checking account in December when everyone kept sending the holiday charity requests...Children's Hospital, Breast Cancer, World Vision, Church... and to top it off, my radio station hasn't met their needs for the year...

Now that I'm married, I have someone to be accountable to with my money. So we came to an agreement on where my money is allowed to go - World Vision, church, and the radio station.

Unfortunately, its at World Vision only right now...

Yeah, hard times are not so cool for the giving...either are major life changes =/ But then I'm not from a church that preaches the required 10% tithe...they just preach stewardship and giving.


2

the stats used in these discussions are often skewed at best. during premarital counseling we were discussing the importance of remaining involved in a church and it was noted that while half of all marriages end in divorce, the numbers for couples who are actively involved (as in more than just regular attendance) are significantly better. it was more like one in a thousand than one in two.


3

"Evangelicals believe that the Bible commands them to give 10% to the church/charity."

This is surprising because in my experience, Evangelical churches that teach the tithe as a requirement are very much the exception, not the rule.

The point of the blog is right on though. We should give - even in the rough times. God has promised to supply our needs.


4

One thing I've been thinking about a lot as I'm feeling crunched in my personal economy is that, if I save or invest in the stock market, I'm not sure what will happen to the money. Will it grow or just sit or dissapear.

But, if I invest in God's kingdom the money will be well invested and who knows what "interest rate" God will give it.

As I re-evaluate my new budget I'm challenged to try to make sure God' priorities take priorty in my plan.


5

I have heard it said, and I believe it to be a fair statement, that "If you want to know what someone believes and values, then look at their checkbook." Jesus said the same thing - where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I honestly am tired and worn out of all the "Christians" in the U.S. that claim to love God, but worry more about the hosue they are going to buy, or the new car, or sending their kids to an expensive private school, or buying the newest cool electronic toy, rather than trying help others and spread the gospel.

Francis Chan has a great quote, which I will paraphrase: "Too many Christians care more about their standard of living than they do about some people living." Do you get that? What he is saying is that we care more about our new house than about saving orphans or starving people throughout the world. Sad. Truly sad.

Having said that, I also understand that this "disease of the self" (as Charlie Peacock called it in his great song "In the Light") runs rampant through my blood as well. So, to counteract it, I make it my goal to give more away (i.e., a higher percentage of my income) each year than I did before. This is a small way to take up my cross daily and put my selfish desires to death. But, it has really helped me to be much more generous and it has helped me to look first at giving to others and the spread of the gospel before looking at what I can buy for myself.

I would hope that all who claim the name of Christ would take a sobor look at ourselves in this area and seek to crucify the area of our finances to Him.

Peace and grace!


6

Money is the root of all evil...that's all I'm gonna say,because this is so sad......imagine our father in heaven he is reading this,thunderous tears fall from his eyes,his heart crying out upon the land...is this what my people have become...we all need to remember Lucifer was given 1,000 years to deceive,kill,steal,and destroy...the very meaning of the Gospel that is in us...Lobdells peace is deception...never let another mans sins detour you from what you know. We are only accountable for ourselves and are required to be an example to others...that's where the rubber meets the road and true meaning of being a christian comes out..somebody better hit that boy in the head with a frying pan and get him back to the altar...imagine what a cool testimony for Christ..we all back slide and some times fall that's part of being human.Just dont live there to long the pain it causes sometimes takes years to unravel...What Lobdell experience in his heart was no different then how Jesus felt trying to teach the Gospel when he walked the earth...you cant lose heart...the beauty of this is Lobdell has open himself up for many, many, many believers to pray for him he will undoubtedly some how be prayed back into his position in Gods army and oohhhhh how much stronger he will be,then of coarse that gives him the opportunity to write the "restoration" book...back to my faith...cant wait!! now that one i would read.....Well i thought i was gonna only say one thing.....


7

I'd like to see stats on countries besides the US - I bet this is yet another issue stemming from the fact that in the States, "everybody" is religious, so you have lots of people calling themselves evangelicals who don't take their faith all that seriously. I bet giving is higher in countries where you don't call yourself an evangelical unless you mean it.


8

I've been unemployed a few times, living off my bank account. It was tempting to keep 100% of any windfall money that came my way. It was an act of faith to put that ten-plus percent in the offering plate.

My theory about God asking for ten percent is that he knew in the future, many societies (including the USA) would have decimal-based money systems.

Need to know how much ten percent is of an amount? It's so easy; just move the decimal point one position to the left! We could have ended up with a hexadecimal (base 60, compared to base 10) monetary system instead, for example.


9

By the way - ugh - I just read the - ugh - LA Times article. What's missing from the guy's "conversion" story? Any mention of having any knowledge about the evidence for the truth of the bible and Christ's resurrection.

All he talks about is "feeling the Holy Spirit spread across his heart". For crying out loud, that's what the Mormons say. No wonder he "lost his faith" - in was never grounded in anything to begin with.


10

Texas Craig,

I actually agree with this,

that claim to love God, but worry more about the hosue they are going to buy, or the new car, or sending their kids to an expensive private school, or buying the newest cool electronic toy, rather than trying help others and spread the gospel.

That is true, I agree with you. I'm sure you're shocked, but since you and I have tangled over this before, I have a question to ask,

how much of ones income is it ok to spend on housing? transportation? food? insurance? health care? beside the tithe,

now, if you chose to spend more, or less than me on any one of those things, whose business is it to know? Should there be a special committee at church looking over the shoulder of each member checking the percentages? How about a government agency? Some bureaucrat to go through the numbers and tell you that you can only spend x amount on this or that?

I believe that Scripture teaches personal responsibility and individual soul liberty. That each one of us will answer to the Creator for how we handle our money, but we are free to spend our money how we wish, within the dictates of our conscience.

So I have a follow up question, why are you so willing to hand over 30% of your income without complaint, and why do so many only give 10% to God, but think nothing of handing over 30% to .........


11

I am always amazed by these statistics and accompanying discussions among Christians. My first allowance as a child was 40 cents spending, 10 cents tithe and 50 cents saving. I don't kow whether it's the way I was raised or if God as just blessed me, but tithing has never been a spiritual struggle for me. It's just something you do.

I have always tithed a 10%, which currently works out to about 16% of my take-home pay. I used to tithe 10% of my net, but then heard in a sermon "If you have to ask which it should be (net or gross), then you know the answer."

Apparently I'm an exception, but I can say with confidence that God has always been faithful to provide my every need (and many wants).


12

Money is not the root of all evil, it's the LOVE of money that is a root of all evil (1 Tim 6:10). Money is just a tool, it's how you use it.

That's why Christians, more than anyone, need to be good money stewards! Why? Because our tithes matter and they finance the kingdom. How can we support God's work if we are in debt, living paycheck to paycheck, and not investing for our future (so we are not dependent on others or the state in our old age).


13

Rebekah (#4):

Yes, that is a great motivation for me as well. In my "finances" spreadsheet, I have two graphs. One plots my savings as a function of time. While generally heading upward (yay!), it does decrease sometimes, like during the last six months.

The other plot is the money I've given away as a function of time. It never decreases! And, as you say, there's no way to quantify how God compounds the "interest" as He uses it to build His kingdom.

I use this to remind myself what my priorities are every time I look at my finances.


14

We give the same percentage we have given for the last few years, but it is less. This has nothing to do with the economy, just the fact that I'm no longer working full-time. But that still contributed to the drop in giving our church saw this last fall.


15

1. Christina (in green):

"Now that I'm married. . ."

How did I miss that. Congratulations!

You'll have to bring him by Boundless sometime and introduce him.


16

Farmer Tom:

LOL! I love the way you repeated that we agree on this! :-)

Yes, we have tangled on many a number of things. But, having said that, I expect we have much in common as well.

In regard to your questions, I think the best thing is to have an accountability partner who we are close enough to that we can share about our finances and ask them to hold us accountable. That is half the battle when it comes to spiritual growth - i.e., having someone in our life who will challenge us and spur us on to love and good deeds.

I do not think it is the role of the church to oversee our finances, although that does raise an interesting issue. Namely, if church discipline should address the greedy, among others (i.e., in 1 Corinthians where Paul says we are not to associate with such people), how do we apply that? What level must one reach to be greedy? Similarly, an elder is not to be a "lover of money." How do we measure that? These are tough questions and, thankfully, I am not the one deciding those issues for my church body.

As for the 30% taken from us, I assume you are talking about taxes. I am not "happy" about that, but I also feel like there is little I can do to change it. I supported Ross Perot and the flat tax, and I would likely support a politician who genuinely favored lowering taxes in a fair and equitable way. But, as long as I cannot change it, I do not worry about it much. Ultimately, all I can control is what I do with what is left over after the government takes its huge cut. That is the part I must be accountable for.

And, truth be told, I make more than enough to be very comfortable, even after trying to give a fair amount away. I do not claim that there is a single standard of living that is sinful to live beyond. In fact, like my pastor said a few months ago, I think that "how much should I give?" is the wrong question to ask. Rather, the right question is "how much do I dare keep for myself?" That is the right question to ask in light of the parable of the stewards told by Jesus. It is not our money - rather we are stewards of the king's money. Therefore, if we are spending most of it on ourselves, rather than the king's purposes, there is a problem. We have become owners rather than stewards. I want to be able to stand before my King and hear Him say "well done, good and faithful servant." To hear that, then I think I need to live like the servant, and not the owner.

But, I do not attempt to judge any people specifically. Instead, I try to challenge people, because I fear we do not do that enough in the body of Christ. Those are my rambling thoughts.

Your thoughts, Farmer Tom?


17

I think it's probably true that Christians don't give enough, myself included.

I find tithing/giving the easy thing to do because I won't have to decide where that money will go. I trust the leaders of the church to make that decision.

But in the church I'm a part of in Russia, the pastors often encourage us to bless our brothers and sisters, rather than putting it in the offering basket. We may tithe out of obedience and feel we've done our job, yet how can we ignore a brother who doesn't have enough to eat?

In the U.S., many of us have enough for both tithe and offering, but when money is tight, it does become a sacrifice. But part of the sacrifice should consist of paying attention to a person's need, and taking a step of faith to offer help.


18

Some points on "tithing".

Abraham tithed on the spoils of battle, not (as far as the Bible tells us) on his income. This was common practice at the time, to give a portion of battle-loot to your king. Abraham's "king" was God Almighty, so he acted appropriately.

The Israelites were not commanded to tithe on their income, but on the fruit of the soil. Firstly, a farmer's "increase" and harvest are not his income, but his turnover. Those of you in business will understand, but those who live on wages may not. In business and in farming, "income" is what you have left after you've paid your business costs. For a farmer, a tithe of your increase is far more than a tithe of the equivalent wage. Secondly, even in an agricultural society, it beggars belief that there were no people who earned wages, or who sold artifacts. That there were no carpenters, builders, potters or professional entertainers. Yet no-where are they commanded to tithe their earnings, wages or the work of their hands. Only the fruit of the land was tithed... and that land was a "spoil of battle".

One of the most prominent commands in relation to the use of tithes was that the bringer of the tithe was to eat it himself, with his family, before the Lord. In order to do this, we would have to eat the equivalent of two meals - worth 10% of our income - per week in Church. The tithe was not just for widows, orphans and Levites, but for the givers as well. How many of you who tithe observe this?

There is no endorsement of tithing in the Bible for New Testament Christians. The only seeming such endorsement is when Christ, speaking as one OT Jew, to other OT Jews, endorses their tithe as appropriate under the law. We see no mention of tithing after Pentecost. The NT Church gave "as they were able", but they did not tithe.

Finally.. a tithe was not a gift. A tithe was commanded, it was owed, it was the property of God by right. How else could someone withholding a tithe be said to be "robbing" God. Paying what you owe is not giving a gift. In the NT, under grace, we "give". NOT because of promised blessings or curses, which would only be a commercial transaction. We give without expectation of return, for only then is what we give truly a gift.

Peter


19

I want more money!


20

"...but we fall far short of the biblically commanded tithe that most churches teach."

So is it commanded in the Bible and thus taught in churches? Or is it not commanded in the Bible and taught in chruches? I would say the latter.

It is expected to come to false conclusions when you start from a false foundation. Many people misunderstand Israel's income tax in support of the theocracy to apply directly to us. It doesn't. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in giving and don't think the Bible is silent about it. I just wouldn't use the tithe verses as the foundation for giving. When it comes to giving I use guiding principles. Here is a quick list that is not thorough and won't include passages as support ;)
1) What is given can range from spiritual things, to time, to activity, and to money. I can give my heart, my ways, my thoughts to God. I can give my time and my service to him like leading a Bible study. I can give my money.
2) When you give it should be sacrificial. Giving out of your wealth is not pleasing to God on the same level as giving when it costs you.
3) When you give you should do it with a glad heart. Also, do not give if you would regret it.
4) When making large or recurring gifts give first to your local church and next to parachurch organizations/ministries.
5) Think often of the Good Samaritan and as Jesus said, "Go and do likewise."


21

Tina,

First what Paul said to Timothy was 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." This verse is a single point from Jesus' parable of the soils. Luke 8:14 "The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature." Emphasis is mine. NoVA Girl in #12 is also correct in what she says.

What do you mean when you say "we all need to remember Lucifer was given 1,000 years to deceive,kill,steal,and destroy"? By Lucifer do you mean Christ and by "deceive, kill, steal, and destroy" do you mean reign? Or by "deceive, kill, steal, and destroy" do you mean was bound in the abyss? And by "was given" do you mean will be given? If you really mean what you said as you said it how did you come to find out about this? If you read it in the Bible where can I go to read it. Any way, only be on your guard again Satan and his schemes. Don't be concerned about the power of a cherub when you have the Living God the Lord of Hosts living inside you. It might be correct, though I am not sure, to have pity on Lucifer. He was once beautiful and held a great position, but as the minutes pass he comes closer to the abyss and finally the lake of fire.


22

#Matt from DC-Unfortunately what happen with my post is: I was posing a comment at the same time I was thinking of a person in my life that is going through a hard time with his Christianity and faith because of his current situation and for some reason both came out in my typing I know crazy but, its the truth. I realized after I posted it. Yes I was like OMG!!..Then i had to just laugh and say oh well God if it gets posted i take it humbly...I would however like explained to me how one can reluctantly no longer believe in God?My brain is not computing this?Is he saying he unwillingly no longer,by his choice because of other people?I'M not sure if I'm getting that sentence..


23

Tina that is a funny story.


24

Farmer Pete (#18):

First off, 4:23 a.m.?

You wrote, NOT because of promised blessings or curses, which would only be a commercial transaction. We give without expectation of return, for only then is what we give truly a gift.

Why is it, do you think, that Jesus repeatedly talks about blessings related to giving? Matt. 10:42--"he will certainly not lose his reward"; Luke 12:33: "Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys."

If Christ promises a reward, or treasure in heaven, and we take Him on His word, does that make our giving a commercial transaction?


25

MATT D.C.-I mean JOHN 10:10...Satan,Lucifer,The Devil,The enemy,whatever you call him is the thief,he tries to steal our salvation,or give us false reality deception....I watched a movie last night called a Prayer for Bobby.I cried like a baby and then woke up with a million questions to God and believe me I drove him nuts this morning including, my sister,I spent the morning looking in Gods word and my Holman Bible dictionary,praying for the answers...Even though my heart and spirit knew them already I still was heartbroken for this boy and his family...His mom who once believed as I do now is fighting for gay/lesbian rights..how?I think it started with guilt of not embracing her son in a Christ like manner because of her embarrassment,and knowing what our father says in his word she ran down the street with the fetus is what i call it, which even though what she was saying was biblicaly correct it was how her action of it that was a mistake..I think she blamed herself for her sons suicide..GOD does not condemn us guilt is not from him..the enemy tries to use that against us..God convicts our hearts,he disiples us.She could not look past her pain...allowing the circumstance to over shadow God..so not only did she loose her son she compromised her salvation...its kinda like when God tested Adam and Eve and Satan tempted them.. they chose the temptation...


26

Matt from D.C.-If you knew me you would laugh and say thats Tina her brain goes from one thing to the next in 0.5 seconds...I did that on another post Episode 53 I believe.Except that time my mind wondered on myself...I wanted to crawl in a hole on that one..this one just made me laugh..


27

Matt from D.C.-thanks for the tips in #20; they are helpful.

Tina, I couldn't watch beyond the first few minutes of "Prayers for Bobby" because I knew it was going to be heartbreaking. A sad, sad, story and probably not unique. Maybe this should be addressed on Boundless?


28

Heather K (#24)

I'm not sure howe the system works, but at that hour, I was very surely in bed.

Yes, Christ made promises and , becasuse He is faithful, they shall be kept. However we must also put them in context with the words of Paul in 1Cor13:3, "If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."

I have no need to tell you that love does not give in expectation of getting. It does not use giving as a means of gaining God's blessing in this world, contrary to the clear and explicit quid-pro-quo of Old Testament tithing.

Nor is the promise if blessing in the health, wealth or any other temporal area consistent with the experience of the New Testament saints. Probably none of us have given as much, served as dilligently, or walked with God as much as did the Apostles, yet their reward was not in this life.... unless you consider cold, hunger, danger, pain, desertion by friends, inprisonment and violent death to be "rewards". They certainly appear more like the curses of OT law, than the blessings.

God blesse, Yes!
He blessed me before I knew Him, before I gave Him a single cent or a moment of my attention. Everything I have comes from Him. If I give, I only give what He has placed in my stewardship, and should be a response to that which has already been given, not in hope of gaining in return.

I hope that explains my intent more clearly.

Peter


29

Amen, Farmer Pete!


30

Farmer Pete (#28): I was thinking with that 4:23am thing that you were one dedicated farmer! :)

Yes, it does clear up. You seem to be reacting against a prosperity theology--"if I give to God, then I get what I want...and I get it right now." A dishonest reading of the Scriptures, I agree.

But I still get the sense that you are inferring that if a Christian uses Christ's promised rewards as a piece of their motivation, that is somehow a less spiritual (or even an unspiritual) act.

You say that to give in love, we must give without expectation. But I don't think that giving with love and understanding Christ's rewards have to be mutually exclusive.

I'm reminded of Luke 6:35: "But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."

Randy Alcorn writes this:

"Of course, reward is not our only motivation. We should be motivated by gratitude to serve God (Heb. 12:28). We should be motivated by our ambition "to please him" (2 Cor. 5:9). But these motives are never in scriptural conflict with the motive of reward. The same Bible that calls upon us to obey God out of our love for Him as Father and Redeemer also calls upon us to obey out of our fear of Him as Creator and Judge and out of our hope in Him as Rewarder of those who serve Him. Each of these motivations is legitimate, and each complements the other. Sometimes we need the combined persuasiveness of all these incentives to do what is pleasing to the Lord. This isn't a matter of mixed motives (some good, some bad), but of multiple motives--multiple righteous motives."

I don't think we're disagreeing. You challenge us to give out of our gratitude. Amen! One would think, looking at the church's giving rates, that we are one ungrateful bunch. We should be challenged on that.

I would also challenge us to consider Christ's words. Heaven is in no way a reward for our good deeds. It is a gift freely given by our God in response to faith. We will, however, be judged as stewards (and rewarded or not). Christ calls us to forgo the rewards of this world for the eternal rewards He offers. We need to understand that our actions--specifically, our giving--have eternal consequences.

Paul wrote that if I give without love, I gain nothing. But he also looked forward to gaining a "crown that will last forever."


31

I don't see anywhere that God promises Christians they will always be comfortable. Sometimes, particularly when praying for growth or patience, you may be uncomfortable for a while while God teaches you something.

Giving, whether on the net, gross, or something greater, will affect your heart and how much control money and possessions have over you. Some even suggest that if you have a lot of clutter around the house, it's because you're letting your possessions control you too much.

You may find it MORE difficult to give when employed - especially if you're just starting out your career. I know I did. But once it became a 'normal' part of my faith, it was actually pretty easy to continue giving during a period of extended unemployment. Granted, income dropped, and giving dropped with it. But either God is God or He isn't. He didn't say only give when it's easy - Jesus specifically pointed to the widow who was giving when it was hard.


32

John Stossel pointed out some important truths in Private charity would do much more — if government hadn't crowded it out.

Americans were much more charitable before the unbiblical and unconstitutional expansion of government into welfare.

Before FDR made the depression "great" with his tax-and-spend (see the book FDR's Folly), one in three American men were members of mutual aid societies, which paid for doctors, built orphanages and cooked for the poor. Now they have been crowded out: how organizatations relying on voluntary donations compete with bureaucracies that have a guaranteed income coerced from taxpayers at gunpoint?

Also, people have less to give thanx to rapacious punitive taxation — strange that lefties never call government greedy for wanting more and more of our money. And they have less inclination to give, because they think, "Why should I? It's the government's job to take care of them."



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