No Food, Drink or Levity Allowed in the Sanctuary
by Motte Brown on 12/05/2008 at 1:58 PM
Today, Justin Taylor exerpts a Piper sermon on "fear and trembling" in worship. It's an indictment on "the superficial condition of our times that one of the most common things said about good experience in ministry and worship is that 'we are having fun.'"
More Piper:
The point is not that Christians can't be light-hearted. You are probably sick if you can't be light hearted. The point is, there is time and season for everything under the sun. And something should happen in corporate worship, before the face of the infinitely holy God, that calls forth a different vocabulary than what you experience at the amusement park.
And it's not that you can't be "cheerful." Piper quotes Charles Spurgeon to help us see the difference between the virtue of "holy cheerfulness" and the vice of "levity."
"We must conquer -- some of us especially -- our tendency to levity. A great distinction exists between holy cheerfulness, which is a virtue, and that general levity, which is a vice. There is a levity which has not enough heart to laugh but trifles with everything; it is flippant, hollow, unreal. A hearty laugh is no more levity than a hearty cry."
I confess I struggle with a "tendency to levity" in inappropriate settings. But not so much in church. I think it stems from being under the influence of reformed teaching in which God's holiness and man's depravity are central. It's just hard to be too light-hearted knowing my own dark heart.
1. obewan said the following at 2:25 PM on Dec 5:
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No Food, Drink or Levity Allowed in the Sanctuary?
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We have the no food or drink rule at our church, and TONS of people break the rules. They waltz in every week with their pastry and starbucks coffee. Then there are all the women who tote the bottle of diet coke around everywhere they go. Maybe they can't read the signs, but I have never heard an announcement from the pulpit - probably because they don't want to throw a wet blanket on the "casual" atmosphere.
2. Christina (in green) said the following at 2:41 PM on Dec 5:
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"Having fun" could mean limited vocabulary skills?
I have to admit that there are times that I have walked away from corporate worship with a smile firmly planted on my face, an invigorating bounce in my step, and a laugh always forthcoming. I wouldn't describe it as having had FUN, but just having a JOYFUL time.
And I think that inspite of how dark my heart is, there is definitly a place in worship (in church) for LIGHTHEARTEDNESS and joyfulness. I mean, wasn't one of the things Christ promised us was to bring our heavy burdens to him and he would make them light?
I love the liturgical service because you SEE the transformation in the service. No offense, but you don't get that in the Baptist church and anyone unfamiliar with a liturgical service, I would definitly challenge you to actually attend one and note the parts of the service - specifically the parts that lead up the Eucharist.
There's the time when we all stand up and SERIOUSLY affirm our beliefs by STATING the Nicene Creed. There's the serious part where we contemplate the darkness of our hearts when confessing our sins. There's the serious part where we contemplate the darkness of the world in praying for those around us - the world, the leaders, our nation, our president. Then there's the seriousness as we contemplate the gravity of what our savior did for us on Cavalry where the entire last supper is recounted for us...and then communion.
That sweet moment of connection and communion with our Savior. I was taught that THIS is the culmination of the service - the most important part. And it IS. In the service AND in life. The point wasn't simply that Christ died...it was that he died so WE could be in communion with HIM. And that gives me reason to be joyful, lighthearted, and glad.
And the service ends with the resurrection and promise of return. And in my church, hearty Alleluia's of rejoicing and the entire church comes to life with the last songs of our service - and we have FUN.
3. Tami said the following at 3:48 PM on Dec 5:
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Christina, I don't doubt you (as I agree that liturgy is beautiful) -- but why did you point out Baptists in particular?
4. Amir Larijani said the following at 4:25 PM on Dec 5:
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I have also been in situations where the "no food, drink, or levity..." mentality has been abused, to the detriment of the Church.
At XYZ Baptist Church, I served as a youth minister in an inner-city setting. Most of the youth were attending without parents present, and were, for lack of better words, lacking decorum that one would normally expect from a more suburban crowd.
One night, we had a youth (Papa Sierra, PS) who was sleeping during the sermon. That should not have been a surprise, as there were several adults who also slept quite well during that sermon.
However, the pastor--who was already in hot water with everyone, because he was very abusive--could not pick on the adults, so he singled out PS and called him out from the pulpit.
Before I could stop him, PS responded by talking back, noting that other adults were sleeping.
The pastor promptly broke off the sermon, ordered me and the entire youth group into the conference room, dressed everyone down in no uncertain terms. He also instituted a whole host of new rules, and informed me that it was my duty to enforce them.
He then told me if I understood the order. "Yes sir."
The following week,
Easter SundayResurrection Day, one of our top guys in the youth group--Lima Foxtrot--sat down, in the sanctuary, with his girlfriend on one side and his mother on the other side. He was holding his fiance's hand.(Because PS snoozed during a boring sermon, I was now charged with enforcing a ban on handholding.)
Amir (to Lima): "You do realize that, as youth minister, it is my job to tell you that you are not supposed to be holding hands."
Lima: "Yes."
Amir: "Ok...I did my part."
When the pastor saw Lima Foxtrot holding hands with Juliet Golf, he approached me.
Pastor: "They're holding hands."
Amir: "I know."
Pastor: "Aren't you going to enforce it?"
Amir: "I did. I told him he was in violation of the rule."
Pastor: "I expect you to do more than talk."
Amir: "What am I supposed to do? Throw him out of the building? Punch him in the mouth? Bash him with a nightstick I have in my office? Bring orders to have him thrown out of fellowship for the capital crime of holding hands with his fiance?"
After the service, he pulled me, Lima Foxtrot, his mom, and the head deacon into a conference room. Before he could open his mouth, Lima's mom blasted him up one side and down the other.
My biggest challenge was keeping a straight face.
After everyone else left the room, it was just me, the pastor, and the head deacon.
Pastor: "Amir, I want your resignation."
Amir: "A lot of people in hell want ice water."
Pastor: "Quit playing games."
Amir: "I'm not resigning."
Pastor: "I'll have you fired."
Amir: "No you won't."
Pastor, to the head deacon: "Charlie, I want him gone."
Amir, to Charlie: "You can't do it either."
Charlie: "He's right, I can't do that. He has the right to challenge it before the church. But Amir, you might lose."
Amir: "I'm sick and tired of your abuses pastor, and I'm ready to go to the wall on this."
I ended up winning that one. No one brought any motions to the floor, and the pastor was gone two months later.
I also found out--the hard way--that in times like that, you find out who your real friends are.
And they are fewer than you think.
To make a long story short, as a longtime fan of John Piper I fully understand his point, and agree with it.
That said, there is a fine line between having guiding principles--with latitude for grace--versus becoming dogmatic with these guiding principles to the point where engaged couples cannot even hold hands.
When it gets to the point where a pastor gets his panties in a twist over an engaged couple holding hands, and forgets that his fundamental job is to preach the Gospel, then I'd say he's bulldozed that fine line.
5. Melissa said the following at 4:26 PM on Dec 5:
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I wholeheartedly agree with Piper's observations. I think in general, our church culture has lost the vital sense of the knowledge of the holy. I cannot picture David or Solomon coming into the temple with a giant mug of coffee or chewing gum. No false holiness or putting on airs necessary...but rather, a holy respect and fear of the One we serve and love. I was appalled some weeks ago, when walking into our congregation's sanctuary, when one young man chose to jump on another young man in a rough manner akin to wrestling, as a greeting. They knocked down a table at the back and turned a more than a few heads. I won't even bother commenting on the ones who chatter all the way through the praise and worship, walk in with their Starbucks, or text message through the service.
6. Texas Craig said the following at 4:40 PM on Dec 5:
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The problem with our services usually start at the top. Too many pastors attempt to entertain, rather than challenge. And, when they try to challenge, they water it down so as not to step on toes.
I think our services should be filled with every human emotion. Joy and laughter, sorrow and sadness, awe and wonder. Not necessarily all at once, or even all in the same service. But, they should not be the sterile, solemn, unemotional events they usually are. Transparency, honesty, and genuine fellowship and accountability would make concerns about levity unneeded.
7. BDB said the following at 4:44 PM on Dec 5:
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To Tami (#3)'s point:
I once had a friend of mine visit my (then not mega) church. He immediately noticed that there was no way for the congregation to participate - no creed reading, no offering plates, etc. Nothing after worship. We did make changes, and now everyone reads a Bible verse together during a sermon.
But the Baptist churches I've been to have a fair amount of structure. Us non-denominationl churches are the ones that lack serious things like restating the creed. I guess since I only go to a Lutheran service when visting my family at Christmas, I forget that it happens in every service. That's a good observation.
8. Kari said the following at 5:02 PM on Dec 5:
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I am guilty guilty guilty of making everything in life a joke and treating things flippantly. Yes even at church. And God has communicated to me very clearly that I need to STOP.
9. Tami said the following at 5:29 PM on Dec 5:
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BDB, you made the point I almost made. :)
The more "traditional" Protestant denoms *do* follow a liturgy of their own, of sorts. And some *do* have responsive readings. (Usually not the Nicene Creed -- though that's great; often it's Scripture.) It's the non-denoms that *tend to be* less structured.
...And Amir, I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusion.
10. khalil said the following at 7:49 PM on Dec 5:
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This has been something that has bothered me off and on, more so when I come back from cross cultural mission work. We take a lot for granted here, reverence for God included. In every mosque (I'd even be willing to add synagogues and Orthodox churches to this list as well) I've been in I've yet to see the casual attitude towards God that I see in most churches, mine included. As others have mentioned it can go overboard, but the atmosphere we have created speaks volumes as to what we value I think. In those other places of worship there is value, there is reverence and an understanding that God is so large, to be respected and not to be treated so casually.
11. Josh said the following at 10:24 PM on Dec 5:
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...because at an amusement park, Christ's living through us is vastly different than how he lives in us when we're around fellow believers. Sure. I'm not going to comment either way on 'levity' in our lives because I'm not sure I understand the distinctions there, but we must be cautious before acting as though the church is the new temple (it's not). That is, the only place where we are 'before the face of the infinitely holy God.' God's watching all the time, and all our lives should be lived for the glory of God before the face of God with God's gracious assistance. It shouldn't change based on what building you're in. Perhaps not this specifically, but this tendency towards inconsistency is what brings upon the generalization of hypocrisy...
12. Christina (in green) said the following at 11:53 AM on Dec 6:
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Tami,
That one in particular because it is the only denomination I've been to that has really NO liturgy at all (even the strict baptist church I went to didn't have one).
The methodist church comes in close to that.
I've been to Community churches that are the same. But Baptist is the one I'm most familiar with due to 3 years of AWANA =p
13. Christopher from Albuquerque said the following at 2:00 AM on Dec 7:
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After more than two years in a "regulative principle of worship" Reformed Baptist church, with an order of worship which included pastoral prayers of adoration to God, confession of sin, and supplication, I am now in a "Reformed-leaning" non-denominational church. I love my current church, but the difference between the former and the latter is palpable.
In the Reformed Baptist church, there was a joyfulness *and* a seriousness about God that translated over into the worship service itself. In the non-denominational church, there is much more of an attitude of "levity"-- even to the point that I have been gently chided (for lack of a better word) by other church members, in the Sunday School class, for talking with too much seriousness about my own sin! As someone else said, I am really beginning to wonder if there isn't something inherent about the nature of non-denominational churches which makes this inappropriate levity almost inevitable...
14. nikki said the following at 2:48 PM on Dec 7:
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I think church should be joyful and genuine. I disagree with the idea that church should be super-casual. Levity or lightheartedness has its place, but I think many churches are tyrannized with these sterile, grave services that emphasize seriousness and all but forget joy. Churches may tend either way, and both extremes are absolutely wrong.
I don't think we should think of church as something so solemn that we can't drink coffee. If it's distracting to you, leave it at home - but I really don't see it as an issue. The issue is the mentality of many that church is here to serve me and make me comfortable. That's what is wrong with the diet-coke ladies, etc.
That said, let's remember that our own bodies are temples, not any buildings. There is nothing particularly sacred about the place where you worship. Sacredness is anywhere you worship God...it is in your heart. The building is nothing; the congregation is the body. There is great meaning in worshiping corporately, and it is in fact commanded of us. But it is not a sacrament, and when we start reverencing the building as sacred then we have strayed. I just think this should be remembered by those in both methods of thought and conviction.
15. Christine said the following at 12:15 PM on Dec 8:
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I think it's important to note that Baptists are not all the same. First of all, there are Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Cooperative Fellowship Baptists, Independent Baptists, etc. Then, most Baptist churches have individual differences as well. Attempting to make a general statement that is always true of all Baptists is nearly an impossibility.
To echo Christopher - I was in a Reformed Southern Baptist church that had liturgical elements in their services. However, I have also been a member of other SBC churches that have steered clear of anything that remotely seemed liturgical.
16. Reno said the following at 12:41 AM on Dec 9:
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I agree with Amir. Seriousness unchecked eventually leads to legalism - where the face-show/acting is far more important that the truth of the heart. But Levity eventually leads to complacency - where we fail to recognize the scope of the God we serve and our fallen natures.
Difficult balance, but I think a lot that balance comes or fails to come from the pulpit. In my church some come in suits, others in shorts. Some drink coffee, others won't dare a mint. The most important thing is to examine our own hearts and stand truthfully before God.
17. Leah said the following at 7:15 PM on Dec 9:
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We have no food or drink rules at our church, but nobody brings food or drinks into a church service. Most of the congregation have a relatively conservative attitude towards church (which is great), and the younger ones who might not, have enough respect for their elders not to even think about pushing things. We have food/drink inside the church building at other times, but if you make a mess you get 'scolded' if you don't clean it up yourself (logically!). Especially if it's after the cleaning crew has already been through.
Levity... well, what's inappropriate levity? I could see the line the article was taking, but then it never defined what inappropriate levity was. I don't like super-casual churches; I know of a church or two that offer one service as just a "sit around, drink coffee, sing some songs, discuss a bible passage" which really sounds more like an elaborate bible study to me. Of course you can do that in a church building, but I don't think you can label it a church service.
khalil- we do not need to fear our God in the way Muslims fear theirs. Yes, we need a respectul fear, but that's not how the Muslims regard Allah. They are never assured that they'll go to heaven. They spend their entire lives trying to please Allah enough so that they might get to heaven. If they think removing their shoes, talking in whispers, praying in a certain direction, keeping men and women separated in the mosque, are the will of Allah, they're very well going to do it so they can get to heaven! We mustn't regard God that way.
It also bothered me that Texas Craig described most services as "sterile, solemn, (and) unemotional". Hmmm. On the conservative church scale, mine is probably around the middle in our city. It's not like the Anglican churches with their big cathedrals, swinging incense around, or even the older-fashioned Presbyterian churches (we are also Presbyterian), but it's not like the Assemblies of God (v. pentecostal). We sing a mixture of hymns and contemporary worship, we have prayer and bible reading, a sermon, etc etc. We have congregants participate in the service, whether by doing the bible reading, leading a prayer, collecting the offering, leading the music, etc. Our minister and lay preachers do not hesitate in bringing in the tough challenges and beefy bible teaching that is missing from many of the more liberally-run churches. But our minister will happily tell a funny story as an illustration for something, which will often get a laugh out of the congregants (something which at first surprised my pentecostal-raised then-boyfriend-now-husband, who expected a lot more solemnity in a Presbyterian church service).
So again, I agree with the general tack this article was taking, but don't know what it's actually condemning by use of the word "levity", so am not sure if I agree with its conclusion.
18. Rachael said the following at 7:58 PM on Dec 9:
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Yes, there are a number of different baptists. And I have in my mind that one particular branch might be more legalistic than others, but I don't know.
I feel like Baptists can get a bad rap. I went to a Baptist church for quite a long time and am getting marriage counseling at one. The one I went to, to me, seemed non-denominational-ish. I also went to a non-denominational church for a long time.
Off the Baptist topic.
About the reverence of God topic...
"that calls forth a different vocabulary than what you experience at the amusement park."
-->Interesting. What about the prayer: "God be merciful to me a sinner"...I suppose that's different than amusement park vocab. And most people don't scream in services as they might at an amusement park....
I don't know.
Perhaps more than the vocab, drink or non-drink in hand, holding hands in the pews externals is the state of heart...
Even if any of the above distract some from their reverence of God, could the distracted try not to pay attention to the distractions, or are they too distracting...?