Why Mr. Darcy?
by Heather Koerner on 11/18/2008 at 11:40 AM
Several weeks ago, we had a very lively discussion emerge on Motte's Whom Not to Marry blog about 19th-century novelist Jane Austen, her books and, specifically, the hero of her novel Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Darcy.
Some gals praised what Mr. Darcy's character represented -- chivalry, integrity, morality and all things gentlemanly. Others begged to differ -- "pompous prat" was a personal favorite of mine.
A few men seemed a little frustrated with the general female fascination with Mr. Darcy. They pointed out how Jane Austen is no expert on marriage (having never been married herself). They also expressed the concern that Mr. Darcy is an idealized fictional character and, therefore, no realistic model of a flesh-and-blood husband.
So, it's been bouncing around in my head lately. Why Mr. Darcy?
I'm a Jane Austen fan myself. I love P&P. But why? Are Austen's works just like chocolate truffles for my brain? Are we females hardened little vixens intent on being the mistress of a castle? After more than a decade of real life Christian marriage, should I be warning my single friends to burn their Austen libraries for their own sakes? Run, girls, run?
I don't think so. But here's what I do think. While not an expert on marriage (Austen herself seems to concede this by ending all her books at the altar), Austen is very adept at capturing the desires of the female heart. No, men, it's not the money or the looks or the pompous-prat-ness. In fact, my hypothesis is that it isn't who Mr. Darcy is that captures our imaginations so much as what Austen writes Mr. Darcy to do. Two things he does, to be specific.
First, it's the steadfastness of the character's love. Above almost all, guys, we want husbands who will love us without wavering, who will never leave us. God has commanded us to respect our husbands and submit to you as the head of our homes. Truthfully, that can be scary. Peter encourages us not to give way to fear and, gals, we need to look to our Lord as our ultimate source of security. But, men, when you communicate not just your love, but your unwavering love to your wives, you do more to lift her up and solidify your marriage than you will ever know.
Now, Austen makes her poor heroes go through some serious fictional trials to test their steadfastness (Mr. Darcy has to wait awhile, Col. Brandon had to wait even longer and poor Captain Wentworth had to wait nearly a decade). We don't want to test you like that. But we do want to know that when life's trials come, you'll still be there.
Second, and this is a little bit harder to describe, is the inspiration of good. Mr. Darcy changes through the course of the novel, and attributes his improvement to the verbal tongue-lashing by Elizabeth, the heroine. First off, I do not recommend the tongue-lashing approach. But I think Austen has nailed one of the desires of a female heart--to inspire her man to be a better man.
Guys, we know we are not better than you. This is not a girl = angel / boy = demon-who-must-be-fixed situation. We are all sinners saved by the grace of God. But I do think that the Lord has given females a desire to bring good to the world that is unique and separate from the way a man desires to bring good. One of the ways I've experienced that desire is by contributing to an environment, a home, a relationship where my husband can flourish. I want to, as Proverbs 31 points out, "bring him good, not harm, all the days of [my] life."
Too often, this desire can go wrong. I've learned that I am not my husband's mother. Before giving in to the temptation to lecture him on his failings, I remember the descriptions of a nagging wife in Proverbs and it stops me cold. But I've discovered there are ways, following the Word, that have led not only to my husband's growth, but to mine as well.
So, guys, there's no need to take Darcy down. It's not necessarily him that we want. But do take the clue that we treasure a steadfast love and the willingness to mature. And, gals, remember. There's some good stuff in Darcy but, ultimately, he's on the page. Enjoy your book. But after you put it down, take a good look around. Mr. Biblically Right might be closer than you thought.
1. Tami said the following at 11:57 AM on Nov 18:
1
Very well put. I think you've boiled this down to those two points very well.
"My" man is not like Darcy much at all. He is who he is. And I like who he is. But -- he *does* exhibit those two main traits you mention above. For this I am grateful.
Incidentally... I read a lot of Austen's books after a really crummy "relationship." Seeing the contrast in men's behaviors -- even in fictionalized form -- helped me learn a lot, and, yes, to a certain extent, helped me through the healing process. Fiction can be cathartic in a way that "advice books" (even well-intentioned Christian ones) cannot be.
2. Anna said the following at 12:05 PM on Nov 18:
2
Forget Darcy...I'm looking for a Colonel Brandon. He is the kindest and best of men. Selfless and patient in love, and loves someone for their heart and their character. No false romantics or getting carried away with sentiment, just deep love.
Plus he's a bookworm. Give me a Colonel Brandon any day.
3. Jo said the following at 12:18 PM on Nov 18:
3
I don't think Mr Darcy is perfect at all. The beauty of Austen is that she creates wonderfully imperfect and real characters. That said, you nailed Darcy's good qualities.
A close friend of mine did her dissertation on Austen, and is going on to do her MA in 18th century women's writing. She said the other day that what she loves about Austen is that she's very observant and witty and sarcastic but in a very generous "I'm just as bad as everyone else" kind of way.
She also shared this quote from a critic: "One should only display a level of enthusiasm over Austen's work that Austen herself would deem appropriate." :)
4. DEH said the following at 12:47 PM on Nov 18:
4
Also, I think it's the sacrificial nature of his love. Mr. Darcy helps Elizabeth's family not because he hopes to get anything from it (i.e. winning her heart). He does it simply because he loves her, and he doesn't even want to her know that it was he who "fixed" things. That kind of love, which only gives and asks for nothing in return, is very attractive to the female heart. In many ways, it reminds me of the love of Christ, who is the ultimate model of what kind of man a husband should be.
5. Kellie said the following at 12:48 PM on Nov 18:
5
One other appeal of Mr. Darcy is that he is played by Colin Firth in the BBC mini-series. :-)
I've always been a more Mr. Bingley type girl myself.
6. Shannon K said the following at 12:54 PM on Nov 18:
6
I think you've nailed a couple of the reasons many women like Darcy. For the benefit of the guys reading, I also want to note that, with Austen, the inspiration of good goes both ways. My personal favorite of her heroes is Mr. Knightley, of Emma. Emma, though good-hearted, is spoiled, interfering, and sometimes thoughtlessly cruel. Mr. Knightley is the only person in her life who loves her enough to confront her when she is wrong, and he continually urges her toward greater compassion and generosity. He acts in this manner even when he fears he is losing her to a rival, because his desire to see her become a better woman is greater than his desire to avoid her displeasure at correcting her faults.
As with Elizabeth's tongue-lashing of Darcy, I wouldn't recommend Mr. Knightley's methods to everyone -- he himself recognizes that his "lecturing" can become overbearing. But I doubt I'm the only woman who desires not only to inspire another person to become a better person, but also to be challenged to become one myself.
7. alex said the following at 1:09 PM on Nov 18:
7
Lol, wow, we made a pretty big fuss, huh? I like Mr Darcy for different reasons, though I think you are right about the unwavering love one. Here's why I like Mr. Darcy:
1) He is unfailingly honest. In fact, he doesn't like Elizabeth at first and tells her so, then has to work to get himself out of THAT pit. Good luck to him, is what I'm thinking during the book. The man's a walking PR disaster. But he does it, and isn't afraid to tell Elizabeth just how he feels when he finally decides to do so.
2) He is noble. He takes care of the people he can and doesn't make a fuss about it. He does it because he thinks it's right. Every time Elizabeth turns around she is discovering something great he did in secret.
3) He is hospitable to the right kind of people. He welcomes good people into his home and his life. Rather selectively, but genuinely. He also refuses to put up with what I call 'weasels'. He is not afraid to be seen as unpopular or grumpy or snobby, because integrity is more important than being percieved as 'the guy everybody likes'. You can see why he is this way when he talks about his sister. Elizabeth knows she can trust him with her safety and the safety of her family, as well as her name.
4) He's proud; not arrogant. There's a difference. A leader must take pride in standing by their priniciples, and Mr. Darcy never falters.
8. Aurora said the following at 1:15 PM on Nov 18:
8
Mr. Darcy is great, but what about Michael Hosea from the book Redeeming Love by Francine Rivers...talk about being steadfast in his love for the flawed and injured heroine Angel/Sarah!
9. Leann said the following at 1:17 PM on Nov 18:
9
Knightley and Col. Brandon: *swoon*
Their goodness and like you said, steadfast love, is what is so attractive.
10. Sarah said the following at 1:26 PM on Nov 18:
10
I know this hero isn't from an Austin book, but whenever I think of a man with the qualities i want in a husband, I always think of Curly, from Oklahoma. Like Darcy (who I love, by the way), Curly gives with no expectation of return, to help the woman he loves. He actually takes it a step farther then Darcy, because he gives EVERYTHING, his horse, his saddle, his gun, everything he needed to live and work. I don't think there is a better example of selfless love (outside of the Bible). For those not familiar with the story, i recommend watching it (if you can, get the stage version with Hugh Jackman as Curly).
11. Jacob said the following at 1:37 PM on Nov 18:
11
As one of the men who brought up the "unrealistic" argument in the last post, I think it is important to clarify that I don't have an issue with a book character. What I take issue with is the women who sublime him into this perfect ideal of manliness and then run around complaining that none of the guys they know are like "Mr. Darcy." Of course, in this situation, "Mr. Darcy" isn't the character in the books (or at least that's what I'm assured), but an idealize wish-list based on said character. It's sort of like magazine covers: they aren't the actual women, but are based on them.
I don't care if women read and enjoy Austen. I do care about being compared to an unrealistic ideal, however, and just as some men need to understand that not all women are magazine cover super models, and so neither are men "Mr. Darcy." In both circumstances, the expectations are blown way out of proportion.
12. BDB said the following at 2:16 PM on Nov 18:
12
Gosh - I find it intriging that when women discuss Pride and Predjudice they tend to de-emphasize the fact that Elizabeth had to change her heart, too. It wasn't just Mr. Darcy that needed to grow to look beyond the surface.
Though it is amusing that both Pride and Prejudice and Emma include what they refer to in diplomatic circles as a "frank exchange of views" and in literary circles as "conflict."
13. Six said the following at 2:29 PM on Nov 18:
13
I agree with Sarah (#10) - Curly sets a standard that we men should be able to attain (although I had no idea he was from Oklahoma...).
I have a slight preference for Larry, though. He was a little smarter than Curly, without Moe's mean streak.
They really shouldn't try to remake the classics. I can't see Hugh Jackman ever being able to pull off "Curly" - he's completely the wrong type.
14. farmer Tom said the following at 2:40 PM on Nov 18:
14
Jacob,
I don't care if women read and enjoy Austen. I do care about being compared to an unrealistic ideal, however, and just as some men need to understand that not all women are magazine cover super models, and so neither are men "Mr. Darcy." In both circumstances, the expectations are blown way out of proportion.
Well said.
I was one of the critics of this fictional book character.
And having not read the book, I wonder, is part of the appeal to women also the fact that they can act in selfish and unloving ways and the sap in the book follows them around like a puppy anyway?? Because in an article which extols the depth of a characters love for someone, is the unseen possibility that the man is attempting to show love to a women who is unworthy of that love.
Since we live in a culture which rejects the idea of personal responsibility, it would not surprise me at all if the young ladies are attracted to a young man who does not hold them accountable for their lack of personal responsibility. Act like a ***** make up your own word, shrew, harpy, whatever, you are unlovely. And you want someone to love you in spite of your lack of loveliness.
15. EconNicole said the following at 3:01 PM on Nov 18:
15
I love Jane Austen's books all of them, and Mr Darcy is certainly a favorite. I think it is because he is real and needs to grow in part that I love him. And why I adore Elizabeth and can identify with her -- she has her shortcoming and must grow. They are very real characters.
That said has anyone else read Debra White Smith's book "What Jane Austen Taught Me About Love and Romance." Interesting take on what you can take from each character. Definitely pertinent to the conversation :)
She also has a line of books modeled after Jane Austen's books but set in modern day. I really must say that all Jane Austen book lovers should read these.
16. Bethany said the following at 3:10 PM on Nov 18:
16
#10 Sarah - Hugh Jackman might be better looking, but his accent had this Oklahoma gal scratching her head and wondering what planet he was from.
#13 Six - Sarah's talking about Curly the character in the movie/musical "Oklahoma," not 1/3 of the Three Stooges. Slight difference there. :0)
Personally, I'd take a Roger Hamley from Elizabeth Gaskell's 1866 "Wives and Daughters" or a Mr. Knightley any day over a Mr. Darcy.
17. Jeffrey said the following at 3:23 PM on Nov 18:
17
I resonate with Farmer Tom's comments.
Much ado seems to be made of the idea that men should be forbearing, patient and genuine in their relationships with women. The openly expressed desire from women is that we be intentional, forthright, without pretense and self-sacrificing.
To summarize the feeling in a word, men are asked to behave with the virtue of justice toward woman.
That is all well and good and I make no objection to this very laudable idea.
However, I find myself sharing Farmer Tom's reservations that these sorts of fictional works appear to suggest that men should tolerate unjust treatment by women as evidence of their love. I also hasten to add that men nowadays - at least in Christian circles - are expected to be forthright in their dealings with women yet women are not typically expected to treat the men in their lives with justice. As an example: a man who pursued a woman and then dropped the relationship without explanation would be considered a cad, yet I rarely see any censure against a woman who does the same thing. It does certainly seem that these fictitious scenarios condone and maybe even encourage women to be fickle and take advantage of men.
18. BDB said the following at 3:25 PM on Nov 18:
18
Farmer Tom (#14) wrote:
>>is part of the appeal to women also the fact that they can act in selfish and unloving ways and the sap in the book follows them around like a puppy anyway?? <<
Actually, Darcy hits Elizabeth pretty hard, too. And while she rejects his proposal initially, she also spends a lot of time pondering the reality that his criticisms of her family's impropriety are, in fact, true. The "frank exchange of views" changes them both.
Perhaps it's the Nicholas Sparks novels where the guy follows her around as sap, until some character dies...
19. Elisabeth said the following at 3:33 PM on Nov 18:
19
Farmer Tom,
For a woman to have the attitude you describe is sad, I agree. But. Loving me in spite of my unloveliness is precisely what Jesus does. And that gives me courage to take responsibility for my actions.
Come to think of it, that's the way Mr. Knightly loves Emma. He tells her where she needs to grow, because he has faith in her desire to do so! Otherwise he would have walked away and left her to continue acting selfish and silly.
Gentlemen: Mr. Darcy isn't perfect! That mixture of virtue and feet of clay is precisely why he's so appealing.
20. Jo said the following at 3:42 PM on Nov 18:
20
farmer Tom, you never fail. :)
A serious answer (from one who HAS read the book :P) - Elizabeth isn't 'unworthy' of Darcy's love. She is flawed, and she makes her mistakes, and they include some fairly significant ones. But Darcy does too. He starts by making a very cutting remark to his friend about her, which she overhears. Not a great way to begin. Her opinion of him is quickly formed, and it's somewhat understandable, but completely inaccurate, and leads her to judge him far too harshly.
They are imperfect, that's what I like about them. Yes, there are unrealistic aspects. It's fiction. It's not real life. But there's stuff in Austen's books that just makes me inwardly shake my head at how ridiculous and selfish and trivial we all are in our ways. In P&P, Elizabeth has a conversation with Wickham which is just the most brilliant depiction of gossip that I've ever read, and in Sense and Sensibility, the heroines' sneering opinion of Mrs Jennings gradually changes as they begin to see past her 'impropriety' to her genuine kindness. Seriously, Austen's characters are honest, they're not ideals. She simply didn't write Prince Charmings.
To be honest I think the idealistic romance of Austen's novels is in their period setting, not the particular character traits of her heroes. (Although yes, Colin Firth did help.)
21. Chance said the following at 3:44 PM on Nov 18:
21
As a guy I can understand how frustrating it would be to feel compared to an unrealistic standard. Think for a moment though about how insignificant the "Mr Darcy standard" is when compared with that of Jesus. Is it not right to contrast potential marriage material with the example Christ set for us? Will anyone ever measure up to that standard? No, not possible. But our dear sisters in Christ are not asking for perfection, or even "Mr Darcy".
The blog post helped to shed some light for me (a guy who shamelessly enjoys Austin's work right along side all the gals in my life) on why Austin's guys are so - well, you know- for the girls. I find it ironic that the two qualities that the ladies seem to agree on are the same two that have stood out most vividly in my recent Bible study, even before reading this post.
"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life..." - James 1:12a
Steadfastness is a quality that a lot of men today do lack. No wonder the girls swoon when they encounter a fictional character that has it.
"But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere." - James 3:17
"Open to reason" nailed me right between the eyes. Girls want a guy who is willing to improve, who is open to letting her in to be a part of that process.
These two qualities are not so impossible guys and I would suspect that our sisters are looking out for not only the guys who have them, but also the guys who are striving to gain them.
We can't change what women want or the standards they hold, moaning about it won't do a thing. What we do have the power to change is ourselves and if that change moves us to be more like Christ, why are we complaining?
To the Girls,
Mrs. Koerner has hit the nail on the head when it comes to a girl "inspiring her man to be a better man." Speaking personally, there is nothing that excites me more than being inspired to be a better man by a woman. God has blessed me and brought a girl into my life and I want you girls to know that you have more influence over us guys than you will probably ever realize. In the almost two years I have know this young woman she has constantly challenged (in a good way) and pushed me closer to Christ. I have been blessed in that this girl has wielded her influence over me in our interactions in nothing but kindness and gentleness, but remember girls that famous quote about great power and the responsibility that comes with it. The best way to find a man like Mr Darcey, is to be the type of woman who inspires the men around you to be like Mr Darcy.
22. Jo said the following at 3:48 PM on Nov 18:
22
Oh and as I said when this came up before, I don't want to marry a Mr Darcy. He may be loyal and loving and all, but he just isn't that much fun.
So, my standards are even higher... :P
23. Lost In Academia said the following at 3:57 PM on Nov 18:
23
Of all the Cults boundless has discussed, the Cult of Darcy may just be the most insidious. But Mrs. Koerner has finally exposed the true danger at its center, the idea that love can make men change.
This is a very dangerous thought. As the son of a social worker, do you know how many times my mother came home saying some variation of, "Mr. X beat the stuffing out of Miss Y. I told her she should leave him, but she said, 'she knows she can change him,'"? The answer is way, way, way too many. And while that is merely the logical end point of such thinking, it is not the only point. Most men have watched the slow motion car crash of a sister (whether actual or in Christ) going out with someone none of her male friends would trust to hold a snow cone. "But I can change him." No you can't.
Most couples at some point in their married life come to a point where they fight, essentially over this exact point. The old cliché about women marrying, hoping they can change him, and Men hoping she will never change comes to mind. Yet we gently reprove any man who holds his end of the cliché, while giving women a pass? Seems wrong.
Last point, Captain Wentworth: Forgiver of wrongs. Constant lover. War Hero.
It's not even a little close.
24. DannieA said the following at 3:59 PM on Nov 18:
24
oh brother Farmer Tom...
Maybe criticism shouldn't be made because you haven't read the books. In fact it has come to my attention that there are many people who don't like to read at all, and that saddens me, because then you can get swayed by mere public opinion more than by actual information.
Anyways...I would say, if you haven't read the book...then the critique is useless. (just like voting...if you didn't vote, then I'll turn you off when you complain) But I digress.
25. Louise, 43 from Chicago said the following at 4:02 PM on Nov 18:
25
This may be off-topic, but why is it always "nagging wife?"
It should be "nagging spouse"...I used to live with a nagging husband who never failed to point out my supposed "shortcomings" and believe me folks that was about as fun at a multiple fracture!
26. Shannon K said the following at 4:22 PM on Nov 18:
26
Farmer Tom (#14) -
What Austen portrays as admirable in her heroines, Elizabeth in particular, is far from the irresponsible princess behavior that you describe. But you ask a good question. I tend to be the opposite, however. One of my least favorite relationships is Rhett and Scarlett from Gone with the Wind. As I recall (haven't seen it in a while), she's unrepentantly selfish to the core, and he, as you put it, follows her around like a puppy most of the time. He's no angel either, but that she's a spoiled brat is disgusting to me, not appealing.
Sarah (#10) -
I also admire Curly's willingness to lay himself on the line where Laurie is concerned and loved Hugh Jackman's portrayal of him! But it's hard for me to like him as a whole character because I just can't stomach the whole "Pore Jud is Daid" business.
27. H said the following at 4:24 PM on Nov 18:
27
While I certainly recognize the risk of falling for fictional characters because it's easier than loving someone for real, I don't think that Austen's men (or women, for that matter) enable bad behavior in those they love. Darcy is very honest with Elizabeth about her errors and faults, and she changes because of his honesty, just as he changes because of hers.
I think what I love about Austen characters, male or female, is that they have integrity. They are willing to uphold principle even if it costs a great deal and no one else is doing it. One Austen character is willing to give up the only man she has ever loved because he has made other commitments that seem at that point in the story to preclude his pursuit of her. When was the last time you saw a woman with that kind of integrity in fiction? It happens, but it's rarer than I'd hope. And Austen is marvelously witty and entertaining on top of all that integrity and sound principle. What's not to like?
28. Mary Alice said the following at 4:51 PM on Nov 18:
28
Let me start by saying that I am a month away from being twenty and hopelessly in love with both Mr. Darcy and Edward Cullen. I think you hit the nail on the head with both points. I just had a conversation with a good male friend of mine about the second part. See, I call it "beauty and the beast syndrome". I have had so many friends (girls) who start dating men who treat them badly and when they are told they deserve someone better, they ALWAYS say (with a dreamy look in their eyes) "I know he isn't perfect but maybe I'll be the woman who makes him want to change."
God designed us as women to love romance because he is the author of romance. I don't know any woman who really compares men to Mr. Darcy because (as you pointed out) we just love the qualities he possesses. :)
29. Julie said the following at 5:00 PM on Nov 18:
29
#13:
Six!!! LOL
I think we could be friends.
30. Tami said the following at 5:02 PM on Nov 18:
30
farmer Tom asks: "And having not read the book, I wonder, is part of the appeal to women also the fact that they can act in selfish and unloving ways and the sap in the book follows them around like a puppy anyway??"
No. Darcy doesn't follow Elizabeth around like a sad puppy. He gives her space, taking her "no" as her answer, and circumstances (as well as revised attitudes) bring them back together.
And Elizabeth certainly needed to have her presumptions clarified and prejudices removed, but she was not selfish in the sense that she just did whatever she darn well pleased. In her efforts to preserve her sisters' reputations, she was acting on what she knew (or rather, *thought* she knew).
31. alex said the following at 5:07 PM on Nov 18:
31
Haha that's funny Jacob, now you know what it feels like to be a woman in today's society, every second you turn your head seeing a fake ideal that you are compared to. I can honestly say I empathize.
32. Afton said the following at 5:09 PM on Nov 18:
32
I agree with BDB. Most people only look at Darcy's flaws because they are more obvious. However, you could argue that Elisabeth had the more damaging flaws like making snap judgments of people and then bad-talking about them to everyone. She was also so sure of her intelligence that it was hard for her to admit she was wrong about Darcy and Whickam (umm, could we say she was a little prideful?). I love P&P. The characters are so interesting. I think I've read it at least ten times and seen the BBC version who knows how many times.
33. Lori said the following at 5:29 PM on Nov 18:
33
"And having not read the book, I wonder...Since we live in a culture which rejects the idea of personal responsibility, it would not surprise me at all if the young ladies are attracted to a young man who does not hold them accountable for their lack of personal responsibility. Act like a ***** make up your own word, shrew, harpy, whatever, you are unlovely. And you want someone to love you in spite of your lack of loveliness."
Wow Tom,
That's harsh. First I suggest you *do* read the book. I think Sense and Sensibility is the best. You used 'you' a lot in this post, and it makes me think that you're thinking of a specific woman, or set of women. But, I'd also like to point out that what you've said about selfishness and un-loveliness can be applied to many men as well. All humans have that tendency to reject their flaws. But, the books don't tout this and you're wrong to suggest they do. If this is what some women take away it is because of a massive personal agenda, not because of the books. I also wonder, is this you saying that a man should not love steadfastly? That when he finally sees his girlfriend/fiance/wife in the harsh light of day he should call her unlovely and leave? Because, honestly, that's terrifying. My biggest fear is that a man will one day see just how unworthy of love I am and, despite my best efforts to be otherwise, hate me and leave. This also goes back to said Jane Austin books, and the steadfast love of the male leads. Women desire to captivate, women need steadfast love, we need protection, we need promise. Men need respect, freedom, faith, other things as well.
It's not because we want to be selfish. There's no excuse for our flaws or continued sin. Still, imagine for a second that there are women who are trying to step outside our culture, who acknowledge their flaws and by the grace of God are changing, but who also long to be loved with an unwavering love.
34. Tami said the following at 5:31 PM on Nov 18:
34
Wow! Elisabeth herself commented in post 19! :)
(Couldn't resist ;)
35. BDB said the following at 5:37 PM on Nov 18:
35
So...Wolverine is from Oklahoma?
36. a sassy sister said the following at 5:39 PM on Nov 18:
36
I understand some of the men's sentiments here about unrealistic expectations being raised on men. And by the way, I am just as much frustrated when I see women drop a guy without ANY explanation whatsoever(I've seen it happen, and I've actually talked to some of my sisters about this behavior).
our relational difficulties, or we can face what is really behind our unrealistic expectations and move forward REGARDLESS of what the other person decides to do. I have a choice. If a guy hurts my feelings and acts like a jerk, I can forgive and not treat the rest of the male population as such, or I can blame the "system" and use it as an excuse to not change my attitude. I can avoid dealing with the bitterness that has taken root in my heart. You can blame men/women/society for your problems and harden your heart against them, or you can decide to get real about your desires and let the Word of God cut to the very heart of the matter. Usually, we prefer the blame game, because then we can avoid actually having to change our attitude and adjust our selfish perspective of justice.
I like Jane Austen. But I have enough sense to know that the Word of God is the standard(for MALE and FEMALE). What seems to cause the most problems is not simply having expectations, but behavior and application of those expectations. Add the misconceptions that men and women have about each other(and their internalized bitterness/resentment towards men or women), and you've got a recipe for a lot of wrangling.
37. BDB said the following at 5:53 PM on Nov 18:
37
Tami (#30) wrote:
>>and circumstances (as well as revised attitudes) bring them back together. <<
Specifically, the circumstance of him catching her sneaking around inside his house...
Those scenes are so funny - played with perfection in the Keira Knightly version, IMHO.
I think that's my favorite part of the movie - when he knows that she is walking back to the inn, so, on horseback, he goes and invites her aunt and uncle to dinner. SNAP!
Oh, to discuss THAT one in a Bible study on "boundaries..."
38. Brynne said the following at 6:00 PM on Nov 18:
38
Bethany, # 16:
Yes, I would take Roger Hamley as well! Excellent choice :)
And this was also an excellent article ;)
39. Leah said the following at 6:27 PM on Nov 18:
39
Haha, wooooo, my "pompous prat" got a mention.... :D
farmer Tom, perhaps if you read Pride and Prejudice, you'd discover that Mr Darcy neither follows Elizabeth around like a puppy (what a laughable idea, if you knew Mr Darcy), nor encourages her to be selfish. I do not believe her to be selfish nor unloving (from my memory); she just initially has a hearty dislike for Mr Darcy specifically.
And you and Jacob would both do well to know I would never want to marry a Mr Darcy, nor would I ever compare a real man to him.
Jeffrey- from my memory, Darcy did not tolerate Elizabeth's unjust treatment of him. He left her well alone when she wanted to be left alone. Ok, so he tolerated it in the sense that he didn't react badly to it, but it's not like he was happy to live with her without trying to make her change. Like H said, Darcy is very honest with Elizabeth about her errors and faults.
40. Hannah said the following at 6:31 PM on Nov 18:
40
Heather,
As an Austen fan, you might appreciate this article I read not too long ago: http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=21-07-009-v
It makes the case that many of the women who swoon over Austen movies and "<3 Mr. Darcy/Colin Firth" are more Lydia Bennett-Wickhams than Elizabeth Bennetts. Thought it was very interesting.
41. Kathryn said the following at 7:00 PM on Nov 18:
41
#28
NOOOOOOOO *flails*
Edward Cullen!? Really? *sigh*
Edward is to Darcy like chalk and cheese. Edward is emotionally abusive and a control freak. He consistently puts Bella in danger, he changes his mind so many times and gives so many mixed messages "I love you, stay away from me" that he's in all respects, bi-polar. Instead of admitting he's weak, he allows himself to be around Bella all the time and to top it off, he's a vampire. Bella and Edward's relationship has no depth, their love is based on character points that don't exist (Bella is not generous or selfless), their love is so incredibly all encompassing of all other people, that they are selfish towards each other. That is unhealthy love.
If, God willing, I am ever in a relationship, God will come first. Not my boyfriend/husband. God.
Put down the Twilight series and slowly back away.
Back on topic, I enjoy Austen novels, but they are no substitute for reality. :) Good observations Heather.
42. Kristen said the following at 7:04 PM on Nov 18:
42
Afton (#32), it seems that writing the book from Lizzy's perspective gives us a bias toward her view, but I viewed them as equally flawed (as well as equals in many other more positive ways). What I have always enjoyed about the book is what others have said, they spur each other on to become better people. Each time I read or watch the initial proposal scene, Proverbs comes to mind--"as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
Out of curiousity, I wonder if others would agree that part of promoting growth in each other is to treat one another with respect. Treating men like men tends to lead them to act like gentlemen (this does not mean being a push-over or sap by any means as Farmer Tom suggested P&P promotes). When women are treated like ladies, they may take on the attributes and behaviors of ladies. It goes back to the idea that we show people how to treat us.
43. Michelle said the following at 7:21 PM on Nov 18:
43
I love this discussion! I've spoken to teen girls on "Finding your Mr. Darcy: Life and Love God's Way" and loved being able to encourage girls about the positive character attributes found in Mr. Darcy, while ultimately encouraging them to wait for a man who models Christ's love and character.
44. P.S. said the following at 7:30 PM on Nov 18:
44
What I love about Jane Austen's male characters is how they go after the ladies. (Except for Edward Farris from Sense and Sensibility who never quite got mustered the courage to go after the older sister till the classic tear scene in the end). When these men made themselves vulnerable before the women they loved, when they risked rejection in the confession of their love, wow, talk about a twist in your stomach. I think there's something so beautiful about men taking such a chance on a woman they hope will return their love.
But among the top ten of male classic characters should be Beast from Disney's Beauty and the Beast. I think when he chose to let Belle go (in spite of the sacrifice that would be to him), really exemplified self-less love.
So the ideal: A tinsy pinch of Darcy, some spoonfuls of Beast, and a few cups of Knightly = Big time swoon.
No jokes, I won't set unrealistic standards for our great goodly guys.
Mr. Biblically right, I like that.
45. Chance said the following at 8:42 PM on Nov 18:
45
Amen sassy sister! God's word is the ultimate authority on the subject of what men and women should be and act like. And Jesus is the living example for both genders.
I don't knock Austin's work at all, I enjoy her stuff very much with my sister, mom and the other girls in my life (yeah and I've even read some of the books!), and my view is that it is just as unrealistic for guys to get bitter over a fictional character, as it is for girls to swoon over him. Mr. Darcy personifies certain character traits in a very human and flawed way, and I understand that this makes it easy to relate to him. This I believe is the true power of fiction, to help us connect some of the dots of life step back and gain some perspective when we are too close to the picture in our own lives to see what is going on. However it is still fiction, and the standard for our relational choices shouldn't be based on an ideal made up in our minds, but rather the example that Jesus set for us. This goes both ways guys and girls!
Guys,
Do the ladies sometimes create mysterious standards, strange ideas, of what they want in a guy that makes us poor blokes feel like we will never measure up? Yes. What can we do about it? We won't be able to force all our dear sisters to change their minds about who prince charming is, but we can strive to be more like Christ, and do you know what? The more we do that, the more likely we will be to attract the kind of woman we want anyway. This isn't about who is "worthy" none of us are. Each and every one of us is a sinner, but if do you know what it means to have the blood of Christ covering our sin? It means that God considers each and every one of us precious enough to die for, how can we turn up our noses at one another when God see each of us as being so valuable?
Girls,
Do you want a Mr. Darcey, or rather a guy who embodies the Steadfastness and Teachability? Mrs. Koerner hit the nail on the head when she said girls want "to inspire her man to be a better man." I hope this is your wish because it is exactly what I as a guy want. I cannot tell you how great a positive influence the girl in my life has been for me, and I hope that I have repaid her kind and gentle encouragement by growing into a better man. You girls have more influence over us than I think you realize. You have the choice of lifting us guys up to the level of the stars, or you can grind us under your heels with criticism. Be firm in your beliefs and stand fast for God, but be encouraging and watch the guys around you desperately strive to rise to meet your standards.
46. Ruth from Canada said the following at 8:56 PM on Nov 18:
46
Very well written, Heather.
I'm not crazy about Mr. Darcy at all. He's too aloof and proud. His seeming rejection of everyone is also very disheartening.
I'm not sure which of Jane's characters I like most. If I HAD to choose one, maybe *nope* I can't think of any that I'd really like.
I really enjoy her books though.
47. Lydia said the following at 9:28 PM on Nov 18:
47
I completely agree, Heather. I do want to add that I think the reason that we utterly fall for someone who loves us unconditionally is that it's a representation (however pale) of our Father's love for us. The Mr. Darcys, the Michael Hoseas of the world - those are men who see the good and the lovable in a woman no matter how seemingly undeserved that love feels. So when I say "I love Mr. Darcy", I think that can safely be translated as "I love the idea of unconditional and pursuing love toward me." It's the love of God, the audacity of agape, that we catch a glimmer of in these gentlemen. So men, please don't think we need exactly what these books portray. We need to know God's love for us and know that you are wanting to love us through His love as well.
48. Bethany J said the following at 11:12 PM on Nov 18:
48
Kathryn in 41: excellent analysis!!! I cringed at that post, too.
I would be interested to have a Boundless post on the Twilight rage (which I term insanity ;) ). Considering that I've read the PluggedIn review already, I can imagine what direction a commentary would go in. But I would very much appreciate the resource that a BoundlessLine post (which are well-researched, balanced, witty and honest) would be that I could share with those in my acquaintance afflicted with this latest rage.
49. BDB said the following at 11:24 PM on Nov 18:
49
Kristen (#42) wrote:
>>Out of curiousity, I wonder if others would agree that part of promoting growth in each other is to treat one another with respect. <<
Well, respect seems to work better than disrespect...
There are a number of Boundess articles discouraging people from looking for a soul mate. Note the quote about how a soul mate matches someone perfectly, provites unflagging support, respect, etc.
There is a different definition of soul mate out there. It finds expression in C.S. Lewis's book, The Four Loves which focuses on seeing the same truth. The movie Good Will Hunting has a scene where a soul mate is defined closer to Lewis' definition - someone who will challenge you and make you grow.
I know that if someone challenges me on something - and they are right - it makes me uncomfortable. It helps if they are respectful about it. But if they are right - and if they know me well enough to make a specific suggestion - that's the kind of challenge that will get me to change my behavior in the future.
OK, here's an amusing example. Very early in my college career I drove a female student someone. An old car with quirks, after parking I said that she could open the door by doing X and Y. She simply said, "No I can't." And sat there.
Oh.
I haven't forgotten to open a door since then.
Though one (1) time, a more feministy student said, "You are NOT closing the door, too." Fine.
I wonder what happened to her...checking facebook...
50. Brooke said the following at 11:44 PM on Nov 18:
50
I like Mr. Darcy because he reminds me of myself, gender difference aside. He is shy and awkward in public and so comes off as aloof. He is loyal to his friends but often makes decisions that hurt them despite his best intentions. He will, however, correct his mistakes and more if given the chance. He is a man of good character, good intentions, and deep loyalty. He makes some big mistakes but is willing to grow and turns out pretty good in the end. I might also mention that he does not let Elizabeth walk all over him. He does stand up for himself when she rejects him and she begins treating him with respect once she finds out what kind of man he really is.
51. Julie said the following at 6:00 AM on Nov 19:
51
"Mr. Biblically Right" I love that. I am a big fan of Jane Austen. Love love love Pride & Prejudice. But I agree that sometimes we as women get too caught up in that fictional world. One thing that I learned from Jane Austen is that God does not hold us to the same standards that some of the men in the books hold the female characters too. We musnt' be "truly accomplished" to earn God's love. He does not expect us to know everything, do everything, or be the best housekeeper ever. His love is for all and the only accomplishment God cares about is what Christ accomplished on the cross. That gives me more hope than any great Austen book or movie ever will. :)
52. Ashley S. said the following at 7:15 AM on Nov 19:
52
I love Austen novels as much as the next person, but our modern ideas of them and their characters are horribly off. Today, we see Austen's works simply as chick-lit, romance novels. This is due, mainly, to the flood of recent screen adaptations (though I love many of them). But as one of the characters said in Masterpiece Theatre's recent "Miss Austen Regrets" says, "If that [romance] is what you think her books are about, you should read them again."
Austen's literature is not "about" these wonderful girls meeting these wonderful guys and living happily ever after. Rather, they are about the importance of character and principles in one's life. They are also close examinations and critiques of the social climate of her time. I don't think that Austen ever meant for us to use these stories as manuals on finding the "right" kind of partner or on marriage. Rather, she meant them to be a kind of mirror, reflecting our own imperfections and what we can do to change them.
To the men reading, I will say that Heather is right. Women's fascination is not with Austen's hero's themselves, but rather with their firmness of character. Instead of a world of Darcys and Knightleys ( who are firm, pricipled, resolved and wise), we find ourselves in a world of Willoughbys and Churchills (who are selfish, foolish and weak). Gentlemen, all we ask is that you be men of God who are firm, trustworthy and selfless. If you can be this, then you'll pass Mr. Darcy in any woman's esteem. No Wet Shirt Scene required!!
53. LeeLee said the following at 7:44 AM on Nov 19:
53
#14 Farmer Tom - Darcy is not a puppy. Don't complain about something you do not comprehend.
And furthermore, I wouldn't call Elizabeth "unlovely" either. That's the beauty of Austen's work, because she made relatable characters, i.e. women who were not smiling, Stepford wives. I don't think standing up for yourself makes you unworthy of male attention.
#28 Mary Alice and #41 Kathryn - Edward Cullen is masochistic, and he himself admits to that. But he is pretty dreamy, I'll admit to that : )
Read George Eliot too. Now, there's some good characterization.
54. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:15 AM on Nov 19:
54
I find this "not wanting to be compared to Mr. Darcy" thing really quite hilarious.
Because I've done it.
I'm marrying MY "Mr. Darcy" in 5 weeks (WOOHOO!) Why do I call him that? Because he loves me the same way Mr. Darcy loved Elizabeth.
It has nothing to do with witty repetoir, intelligence, riches, and looks. I don't compare him to the individual traits that make Mr. Darcy unique (and ANY man unique...your never going to find anyone that's exactly like someone else...and any girl that thinks differently is a fool that needs some educatin' anyway). My fiance is NOT Mr. Darcy. But he is MY Mr. Darcy...simply because he exhibited those two traits that Heather mentions.
Oh...and Farmer Tom,
The book is called Pride and Prejudice. There are two people with flaws and natural inclinations that are more troublesome and harmful at the beginning of the book. The best part of Austen's books (IMO) is that you get to actually witness the transformations of her characters into something better.
For those that claim they like Mr. Bingley better than Mr. Darcy, I'd be more wary of them. Jane and Mr. Bingley are the epitomy of Austen's ideal of perfection from the get-go. They are two unrealistic caricatures of English Perfection of manhood and womanhood. They are what Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy aspire to be, but both have flaws that prevent them from achieving such perfection.
No girl here who claims to want a Mr. Darcy wants a man of perfection who is wholly devoted to her without objecture. They want men who love them in spite of flaws but never gloss over those flaws. Thing is, Jane didn't have any flaws to gloss over so Mr. Bingley never had anything to object to. We know we are not Janes...and none of us have identified with her...we're identifying with the flawed character that strives to be better. And we desire the flawed character that strives to be better.
55. Kit said the following at 8:57 AM on Nov 19:
55
Just for the record, I hate Mr. Darcy. He comes across to me, as a bit of a pansy. :-)
Really. But I hate Anne Shirley, too. :-)
56. skp said the following at 9:04 AM on Nov 19:
56
To Farmer Tom and those who think women are holding them to the unrealistic expectation of being Mr. Darcy I offer you the following quote from the book.
Mr Darcy says, "No (woman) can really be esteemed accomplished who does not greatly surpass what is usually met with. A woman must have a thorough knowledge of music ,singing ,drawing , dancing all the modern languages to deserve the word and besides all of this she must possess a certain something in her air and manner of walking the tone of her voice her address and expressions or the word will be but half deserved. .. And to all this she must yet add something more substantial the improvemenet of her mind by extensive reading."
Understandlingly Elizabeth replies, "I am no longer suprised at your knowing six accomplished women. I rather wonder now at your knowing any."
I' ve been reading this blog long enough, Farmer Tom, to know that you too have a list of expectations for the "perfect" woman. (I would include SAHM, not fat, the "right" kind of Christian add or correct if you would like)
Jane Austens female characters are not perfect but they are also not ordinary. I often wonder if I would have met Mr. Darcy's standards.
Fortunately for me- My husband told me once- "I married you because you are normal". I am taking that as a compliment.
And as for the comment "and you want someone to love you inspite of your unloveliness", I answer with an emphatic YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
57. Hayley said the following at 10:09 AM on Nov 19:
57
Wow! There are a lot of comments to this post! While I didn't read all of the comments, I still wanted to join in. I never finished reading "Pride and Prejudice" (did read Emma and Sense and Sensibility) because I found Elizabeth very hard to tolerate! I hardly even remember what Mr. Darcy was like in the book. But as for the 2005 movie, they had me the first time I watched it. By the end Mr. Darcy seemed wonderful and I forgot what a snob he had been. But as I watched it a few more times, Mr. Darcy is really nothing to go crazy over. I’m not really much of a fan of Austen novels. There’s usually some lying cad who breaks one of the women’s heart and she ends up with the man she didn’t really like (a few examples; Marianne, Willoughby, and Col. Brandon… Emma, Frank Churchill and Mr. Knightley …Elizabeth, Mr. Wickham, and Mr. Darcy) which seems to happen often in real life.
I liked Faramir from The Lord of the Rings better than all the Austen novel men (I liked that book better too). Or…this one is a little silly…Johnny Martin from the 2007 movie “Penelope”. He loved her despite her pig snout. :-)
58. AJS said the following at 10:47 AM on Nov 19:
58
To Chance #45:
Good thoughts. So how does a woman lift her man up to the level of the stars?
59. farmer Tom said the following at 11:59 AM on Nov 19:
59
I wonder if others would agree that part of promoting growth in each other is to treat one another with respect.
Aren't we as believers to treat everyone with respect?
Why is it that some of you only want to treat someone with respect, if they are worthy of your attention, affection or "love".
My point earlier, was that there seems to be a trend in our culture that allows some to act in unlovely and irresponsible manners, yet they tell us that they are in search of unconditional.
What's that passage about removing the log from your own eye first, or another way of putting it, is "Physician heal thyself".
Quit daydreaming about a man who will show unconditional love while being unloving.
60. JessicaF said the following at 12:23 PM on Nov 19:
60
BDB, (#35, I think),
No, Leopold is. :)
61. Tami said the following at 12:29 PM on Nov 19:
61
farmer Tom, can we agree that there's a difference between wanting to be loved despite one's flaws (which we ALL have... and all need grace as we work on them), and wanting to be loved while given a "free pass" to treat others however you darn well please (i.e., being unloving).
There *is* a difference, and I don't think anyone here is thinking the latter. I don't think Jane Austen was advocating the latter, either. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, *both* Elisabeth and Darcy had to address and work on their character flaws. No one got off scot free in Austen's novels.
Again, I agree that overidealization of Darcy (or Colin Firth, especially!) is uncalled for, and the "Cult of Darcy" is silly. But to admire the character's good qualities is not silly. As Heather so aptly described, we can learn valuable lessons from fiction. [Though of course our primary direction comes from the Bible and Christ Himself.] And rather than "daydream," we can instead be on the lookout for these good character qualities (or the sprouts of them) in the men we encounter.
But if you want to continue discussing the book, it'd help if you read it. ;) Otherwise, it just sounds like you have a bone to pick... or that you don't particularly care to discuss the book, just issues related to the way women view prospective gentlemen.
62. Jo said the following at 12:32 PM on Nov 19:
62
Hayley #57:
"Johnny Martin from the 2007 movie “Penelope”. He loved her despite her pig snout. :-)"
Yes, AND he was James McAvoy!!
63. Mary Alice said the following at 12:39 PM on Nov 19:
63
Hi guys! I wanted to clarify a few things about my previous comment (#28). I truly wasn't trying to compare Edward to Darcy. I didn't mean to imply they they were the same kind of character or that they shared any traits. Instead, I was trying to tell a little about myself. That is, I am a hopeless romantic who grew up with the Disney mindset that "everyone lived happily ever after" and I am a sucker for a good love-story with a happy ending. Thus I love Twilight, P&P, Little Women, The Atonement Child, Redeeming Love, The Notebook, Fairy Tales, and the greatest love story of all time - the Bible. Which is where I tried to connect the fascination women have with Mr. Darcy to the inborn desire for romance God has given us. :)
<3
64. Jonathon said the following at 1:05 PM on Nov 19:
64
*sigh* All of this commenting has finally persuaded me that I ought to read Pride and Prejudice. Though I don't know if I'll make it all the way... pray for me! Lol
65. Heather Koerner said the following at 1:08 PM on Nov 19:
65
Hannah (#40):
Thanks for the link. I read the article...interesting.
I thought the author made some good points. She appreciated the actual literature of Austen--pointing out that Austen's characters (like Elizabeth) are "models of prudence and propriety" who strive (through fictional obstacles) for "moral maturity."
But she also observed how our society encourages us to be Lydias (Elizabeth's sister in P&P)--self-absorbed, silly, stupid, giggling girls who, having only seen the often romaticized and vamped-up movie adaptations of Austen, never realize how ferociously Austen's writing skewers their behavior.
Here's hoping that a few of them actually read the books--or, rather, that they read the Word.
Thanks again!
66. Heather Koerner said the following at 1:11 PM on Nov 19:
66
Christina (in green)(#54):
May God bless your marriage! Congratulations! I'm assuming you'll shed the green and be Christina (in white) on that day? :)
67. Sarah P. said the following at 1:14 PM on Nov 19:
67
Farmer tom, I am so sorry if women have hurt you by being disrespectful, but please don't take it out on all the women here.
We as believers are indeed supposed to treat everyone with respect, but we are also supposed to love everyone. You ask, why should women demand unconditional love despite being unlovely? Well, why should men demand unconditional respect despite being unworthy of that respect?
Only by the power of God's grace can all of our unworthiness be somehow lovely and honorable.
68. Ronnica said the following at 1:22 PM on Nov 19:
68
This exactly describes why Colonel Brandon is my favorite Austen male. He waits for Marianne and helps to mold her into a mature, sensible woman.
69. BDB said the following at 3:22 PM on Nov 19:
69
Jessica F (#60) wrote:
>>Leopold<<
Which one of the X-Men was he?
Or was he a bipolar vampire?
I'm so confused...
70. Zusanne said the following at 4:05 PM on Nov 19:
70
One more for Farmer Tom (wow you're really catching it on this one!):
Pick one Austen book; please read it. I think you'll change your mind.
What's so attractive about her characters is that they are able to communicate so well with each others--even when the characters are able to point out each others' flaws. And this is part of their "courtship."
71. Kathryn said the following at 5:34 PM on Nov 19:
71
Hi Mary Alice #63,
I wasn't attacking you, but Edward Cullen and Twilight. There's nothing wrong with liking good romance, but Twilight isn't good romance. It's bad wish fulfilment with broken rules, badly "developed" characters and badly "developed" plot. This isn't just personal opinion, but taken from how the book is written, how the characters are portrayed and how Meyer contradicts herself.
I rather enjoy reading the Twilight series, but that doesn't mean I recognise them for good literature, nor for realistic expectations in a relationship, which is what I think the entire thread and post is about. There is nothing about the way Edward loves Bella that is something to aspire to in your own relationship.
My passion for this comes from being a part of a community of other Twilight-*cough*not appreciators (to put it mildly) wherein we like to deconstruct the books and show them for what they are. Too many fans blindly support it without thinking, which leads some of them to cut their necks so they're bleeding for Rob Pattinson to see when they get his signature. *sigh*
^link to the news story http://www.usmagazine.com/news/robert-pattinson-goes-completely-deaf-at-twilight-premiere
72. RF said the following at 7:49 PM on Nov 19:
72
I love this post. Pride and Prejudice used to be my favorite Austen book, but I've realized over the years that I identify more with Eleanor from S & S and Fanny Price from Mansfield Park. That being said, I love Austen's commentary of daily life. Her characters aren't perfect...even Elizabeth. They are dynamic characters who change through the books. Women may not be so dependent on fathers, brothers, husbands today to live, but in many ways things haven't changed too much. The women (in my circles at least) are still hoping for love and security.
73. JessicaF said the following at 7:50 PM on Nov 19:
73
*shakes head* BDB, I'm disappointed. Leopold = the best character I've seen Hugh Jackman play. (Well, maybe the one character I've seen him play. Still doesn't negate the truth of that statement though) Kate & Leopold may be a chick-flick, but it is time-travel! :)
74. DJS said the following at 8:39 PM on Nov 19:
74
I have seen the movie P&P with my mom and sister, but have never read the book. I think one thing that girls tend to love about Jane Austen novels in the setting. In the Victorian time period courting was so formalized and everything revolves around dialougue. Women love communication.
But, I'm sorry, as a guy today, I cannot talk the same way that Mr. Darcy does. Most guys lack the vocabulary or ability to talk in such a witty stylized form.
The part that I don't like about movies and novels like Jane Austen's is the lack of action. As a guy I prefer a Louis L'Amour novel. Guns blazing, risking life and limb for the girl who has captured the cowboys heart. Both show unconditional love, just much more entertaining to me.
75. sarah elizabeth said the following at 11:17 PM on Nov 19:
75
I am very much a fan of jane Austen characters for their wit, integrity, and the combination of good and bad they all have. however, i think my best points have already been covered by others, so I go in a different direction...
To the guys-Dont get discouraged by thought of being compared to a MR Darcy. We as women all have our ideals or thoughts of what we want, but when it comes down to it-they dont matter that much. Someone has said we women have a powerful effect on men. Well, I fear many young men out there do NOT realize what a powerful effect your pursuit could have on a women. It is amazing how a young man honorably pursuing a young women is soooo attractive. I have watched many girls date and love someone they would not have pictured themselves being with. Someone they just hadnt previously given much thought too. He pursues her though and she sees his good points and falls for him.
So, While listen to our ideals on ques to things that inspire the heart of women, but in the end, go after the woman you are interested in with integrity and confidence and you may be surprised how well it goes! And unless her and all your friends tell you theres no hope, one rejection doesnt necessarily mean rejected forever!
76. farmer Tom said the following at 5:47 AM on Nov 20:
76
Farmer tom, I am so sorry if women have hurt you by being disrespectful, but please don't take it out on all the women here.
Ok, that was funny. Yes I've been disrespected by more than one female in my life. But that is not why I'm arguing about this.
I see a general lack of respect for men in our culture. It is a part of the feminization? of our culture. I see young Christian young ladies treat Christian young men with open contempt, because they are not, financially well off especially. They seem to assume that every guy started out with a million bucks, and was a perfect Christian. How foolish.
77. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:22 AM on Nov 20:
77
Suzanne, # 66
I will be wearing white on December 27 :)
However, all my bridesmaids will be in green ;)
78. Louise, 43 said the following at 11:18 AM on Nov 20:
78
The character of Mr. Darcy would not be my ideal partner...but I found the book to be a most enjoyable and entertaining read.
79. farmer Tom said the following at 11:21 AM on Nov 20:
79
77. Christina (in green),
Congratulations.
When are you sending out invitations. I'd like to catch the bouquet.
80. Christina (in green) said the following at 12:09 PM on Nov 20:
80
Farmer Tom,
You can only catch the bouquet if you wear a dress.
But I think I'm under obligation to ensure my cousin or Maid of Honor catch the bouquet...
81. DJS said the following at 1:33 PM on Nov 20:
81
In farmer Toms defense I think he is on to something, but Tom, I think maybe you have phrased it wrong. So, here goes my attempt.
Our American popular culture has in recent years has been a downer on true manhood. Just sit down and watch an hours worth of sitcoms on TV. Men, and husbands in particular, are ridiculed for being lazy, stupid, unfaithful, slobish, etc. There are very few times when a father or husband in a sitcom is the good guys who saves or redeems his wife, family, girlfriend, etc. Men have no initiative, instead they are led around by their strong willed wives b/c they are unable to lead.
Instead the trend is that the man messes up, woman mocks him, man realizes he is wrong, man seeks forgiveness from the woman in his life that he has wronged, end of story.
Of course, young women see these shows all the time and so begin to treat the young men in their life the same way. This may be partly mens fault for not being strong, Godly leaders, but could also be attributed to the cultural shift seen in TV programs.
This is why I love to read and watch westerns. Back when men were manly and were the leaders in the family, society, church, etc. Maybe I'm way off base about what farmer Tom was trying to say, but maybe not.
82. Zusanne said the following at 3:39 PM on Nov 20:
82
DJS:
Okay, I'm not crazy about Westerns, but I understand what you're saying.
I think you're saying, in different words, why Austen's men are so "attractive" to more modern (sorry, for lack of a better word)women. We're rather tired of seeing so many men presented in such a light as well, especially when we know so many men who aren't as ridiculous as modern men are portrayed. Austen's men have the character and moral strength we admire.
To those concerned about women appreciating Austen's men for their money:
Wealth is seen in many cases in Austen's books as blinders, keeping people from seeing the true person. Those who recognize equality (keeping in mind the context of these novels, Austen was very forward-thinking) are seen as noble; those who think of only money are ridiculed.
For example, Emma's troubles come when she tries to "puff" up Harriet Smith (which Mr. Knightly reveals to her); she's shown as proud when she looks down on the farmer Robert Martin (who has Mr. Knightly's highest regard) and her unkindness to Miss Bates is embarassing (which Mr. Knightly tells her, in no uncertain terms, is not appropriate). Even Mrs. Elton, who is all about the money and position of herself, her husband and her sister, is seen is ridiculous in every way.
83. Trevor Dolby said the following at 5:53 PM on Nov 20:
83
My respect for Jane Austen went up when I realised how spot-on she was about dancing - it's so easy to make no effort to dance with the un-danced-with, and yet it's actually quite important.
Emma's Mr. Knightley did the right thing, and Mr. Darcy was chided by Elizabeth Bennett for not doing so; I've done both (at different times), and know what a difference it can make to the women who rarely get asked.
Of course, there's the whole other issue of girls who are incredibly pretty, and are therefore too intimidating for guys - they are sometimes the least asked of anyone, though I don't think any of Jane Austen's books mention this.
84. Leah said the following at 9:08 PM on Nov 20:
84
Jonathon (64): P&P is a wonderful book, but can be a bit of a struggle at times. I got given it when I was much younger (about 15), read the first three pages and gave up. Several years later I had to read it for a uni class. After forcing myself through the first chapter, I got much more used to Austen's language and acquainted with the culture and characters, and the book flowed much more easily for me.
Hmmm, I think I'll have to read it again!
85. Eliana said the following at 1:02 PM on Nov 22:
85
Could the appeal of Mr. Darcy and the other Austen heroes to women be also based on their physical respect of women? They are able to fall in love, court a woman, and propose, with very minimal physical contact. (For those not as familiar with the historical time period, dancing allowed much more limited physical contact than occurs in modern time.) These heroes do not insist on sleeping with a woman or even a kiss, yet they can make a commitment for life to that same woman.
86. BDB said the following at 11:27 AM on Nov 25:
86
Eliana (#85) wrote:
>>Could the appeal of Mr. Darcy and the other Austen heroes to women be also based on their physical respect of women?<<
Odd that no one else has responded to this. But that's an interesting point. It's also interesting the books assume a common set of rules for approaching marriage, one aspect of which is physical respect.
87. Paul Clutterbuck said the following at 10:02 PM on Dec 19:
87
I wonder if Jane Austen either consciously or unconsciously based Mr Darcy on Boaz? I can't help seeing the similarities myself.
88. Lindsey said the following at 12:23 PM on Dec 23:
88
Very well put. Your two points illustrate very well what Mr. Darcy incompasses.
89. Andia said the following at 8:27 AM on Jan 6:
89
Ok first of all, whoever brought Twilight into this mix, it should have never made it in this discussion namely because it probably pales in comparison to true classic lit. Secondly, my dad would have to be an exception to this rule because he has seen P&P BBC many times and loves it. Thirdly, Mr. Darcy is my favorite because he goes through the logical emotion of most guys and tries to come up with every explanation of not liking Lizzy, but in the end loves her for everything she is and is not (as far as society deemed her). Fourth, I think you would like Mansfield Park the new version of it and Fifth, if we are naming fictional male characters we wish to see in modern times, I would have to say Gilbert Blythe. I think you know who I'm talking about so enough said. That is a topic all on its own.
90. Joy said the following at 12:14 AM on May 24:
90
Heather, just wanted to say that I just found and read this blog entry, and thought it perfect. Its true.
Thank you for writing it, maybe some men out there will read it. Points to them if they do, at least for having an open mind.
God Bless
- Joy