Me, Scrooge?
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 11/24/2008 at 2:26 PM
As we head into the Christmas season, businesses and charities alike are suffering from a struggling economy. We hear a lot about "belt tightening" these days. We've experienced it personally here at Focus. Giving is down. Way down. I don't consider myself a miser, but according to Culture 11, the facts aren't in my favor:
Strike 1: Churchgoers today give much less to the church than they did during the the Great Depression.
In fact, fewer than 5 percent of churchgoers actually tithe 10 percent of their income; the average, according to numbers from Empty Tomb, a Christian research group that puts out annual reports on church giving, is now 3.4 percent, or 21 percent less than what dust-bowler counterparts gave during the worst of the Great Depression. Figures show that churchgoer contributions have been cascading downward since the 1960s. Religious conservatives do give more. Problem is, they only give nominally more and other groups give next to nothing.
Strike 2: Twenty- and thirty-somethings are the least likely to give.
Taking a cross-section of church contributions nationwide right now, you’d see they nosedive as you move down the age spectrum. We can only hope that’ll change as today’s youth get older and wealthier, but it isn’t unreasonable to wonder about the cultural implications of sixty-year-olds who are 10 percent more likely to give to the church than are still not-so-youthful churchgoers in their forties and fifties, who, in turn, are 30 percent more likely to give than are those in their thirties, who are then 30 percent more likely to give than are twentysomethings, fewer than a third of whom give anything at all.
Strike 3: Evangelical churches tend to hoard funds.
For every dollar evangelical churches now spend, they give about two cents to missions, an amazing statistic when you consider that funding missions was once paramount to evangelicals.
The conclusion:
Americans and even the churchgoers among them grow ever less generous, spending their disposable income on goods that reflect a self-detached apathy toward the less fortunate. This shift will soon have real and immediate consequences—in fact, it has already.
The paradigm needs to be changed. I'm convicted by the personal charge: "spending their disposable income on goods that reflect a self-detached apathy toward the less fortunate." Ouch. There are certainly ways I, and I'm guessing all of us, could cut back to give more. Also, why not look into how your church is using its funds? Perhaps there are ways you can encourage your congregation to be more outward focused. Yes, we're in a difficult economy, but giving shouldn't be the first thing to go. Those fine men and women who continued to give during the Great Depression are a good example to us all.
HT: Justin Taylor
1. Kellie said the following at 2:34 PM on Nov 24:
1
My husband and I have been giving 10% faithfully to our church for two years now (as well as a little extra each month to two mission organizations the two of us have chosen to support). I do get a little tired of our church constantly asking for money, although I suppose they are talking mainly to the people who aren't giving. I admit sometimes I think about other things we could do with the money, but I know tithing is the right thing to do.
2. Matthew said the following at 3:06 PM on Nov 24:
2
...and of that 2 cents that is given to missions, most of it goes to missionaries who are already Christians! Roughly 1 cent out of every $100 that Christians give goes to frontier missions (to those 0.0006% of missionaries who go to unreached peoples.)
I could recite my usual litany of statistics and figures, but everyone already knows that there are now more ways to wisely bless others with our money, especially millions of our brothers and sisters who live in desperate poverty as well as the 4 billion fellow human beings who are headed to an eternity without Christ.
It's not easy, certainly. I can't say I know what it's like to have to sacrifice a lot in order to give above tithe (God has blessed me with scholarships all throughout my education.) But following Jesus will always be a painful and costly road. I could always give more, be more careful about whether or not the things I do buy are good for the people who produce them, and encourage others around me.
Thanks for posting this. Evangelicals in America are often seduced into subscribing to the cultural norms of comfort, security, and safety when the call of the Gospel has a much higher standard-- and an indeterminably greater reward.
3. Rebekah said the following at 3:25 PM on Nov 24:
3
Re: "Also, why not look into how your church is using its funds? "
This summer I went to the church budget meeting and was v. surprised to find that I was 1 of 2 women in attendance and the only person under 40 yrs. Most of my peers talk about "well the church should do X, or Y" or "the church should (or doesn't) care about these people/this need). But none of my friends were at the meeting or the vote 1 week later.
I did find out that my church is giving 30-33% to missions. Yay! (But my last church only gave 2-5% to missions) I wonder what makes the difference in that decision.
4. Matt from DC said the following at 3:38 PM on Nov 24:
4
I read that Culture 11 article and I think it is a poor piece of journalism.
To the first strike, an increase in giving of 21% would bring giving up to 4.2% from 3.4%. That isn't a significant increase.
To the second strike, while we may not give as much of the less money that we have how much are other factors taken into account? Do 20-somethings volunteer more than older church goers? If they're going to say we're stingy they need to talk about more than money.
To the third strike, so assume that the church spends 2% of its money on missions. Is that the same as ministry? The article goes on about feeding the poor and that isn't missions. In my church the missions program which sends hundreds on short term mission trips is not even funded by our church. They money is raise by those going on the trips. This past weekend thousands from our older congregation gave financially to support a large outreach to feed the needy and thousands from our younger congregation gave their time and their energy to box and deliver 6500 thanksgiving dinners. Where did that money come from? Where did the labor come from? A special offering.
Also, the article went on to scold Californians who financially supported Prop 8 because they could have given their collective $18 million to charity. Though that's a record for state-ballot campaigns $18 million dollars is a drop in the bucket compared to America's total giving to charity. To cite their numbers, Americans gave $97 billion to churches in 2006. Now you ask what portion of the total giving would that be? That is 0.018% of the giving for the year. It doesn't seem like much any more, now does it?
Now, I concede that giving may be low and churches in America are far from perfect. However, this article is heavily slanted and paints all mega-churches with a broad brush as greedy corporations fattening themselves on their selfish congregants.
Why is this article appealing to Christians? Is your church like this? If so you have a big problem. Get off the blog and do something about it. Is your church not like this at all? Then why does the bad math of Culture 11 need any attention. The only thing that Culture 11 is doing with this article is sowing disunity and division.
PS: If you read into my post that I’m emotionally excited you are correct. I get this way when the Body of which I am a member is attacked.
5. Kevin said the following at 5:27 PM on Nov 24:
5
I go to three different churches, because I basically live in three different places throughout the year. One church is currently saving money to build a bigger church to fit everyone in (so they don't have to have 4 services every weekend). Another one is currently building a multi-million dollar expansion to fit everyone in (again, so they don't have to spread it out over 5 different services every weekend). The third just recently moved to a larger building to accomodate everyone, and it's growing so fast, it might have to move again in the next few years.
Maybe there's less money going to missions because all the money is going into building bigger churches to accomodate everyone. I'm sure it's at least a factor.
6. Jaime said the following at 5:31 PM on Nov 24:
6
My husband and I are in our early 30's. These statistics make me sad, but I remember the mentality of those around me, including other Christians, and I'm not surprised. We give our tithe faithfully despite being a one-income family with a child. We also support a couple with Campus Crusade once a month. And, we're paying off student loans and have a mortgage. I'm here to say that it's not easy, but our obedience in giving is a sign of our love for God and our trust in His providence. Period.
7. Jassy said the following at 5:34 PM on Nov 24:
7
My father firmly believes, and he's a old school Mexican Papa, that the poor generally give more to others. So few people really adhere to the idea that to whom much is given, much is required and as North Americans we generally trump the world by the wealth we possess. I don't make much over 38 thousand a year, which to my dad, a retired farm laborer, is a ton, but I do help support two missionaries, a child in Peru and give a portion of my income to my church and I still find that I spend too much of my money on myself. I could do more, I know, if my heart was less greedy.
8. Nate said the following at 7:19 PM on Nov 24:
8
Didn't Jesus say that if a man can't be trusted with worldly riches (money), he can't be trusted with true (spiritual) riches? Maybe that is why the Church in America is so poor spiritually. Some Bible teachers point out that the tithe is what was required under the old covenant. Since the Church is under the new covenant, we should give more than 10%. The stats look even worse if you view them from that perspective...
9. BDB said the following at 10:25 PM on Nov 24:
9
My church puts out a report each year. We consistently give away 15% of what we take in as giving. This is a mixture of benevolence (such as the food warehouse for the poor) and missions. We've given away millions of dollars - including helping out other churches who were challenged by their mortgage payment.
We've done this since we were very small - I joined the church 15 years ago when it had 300 people. We just re-did the database. We asked all attendees to fill out a form with name, address, etc. In six weeks, a total of 10,000 people were added to the new start-from-scratch database.
As my pastor says periodically, it's an overnight success 20 years in the making...
10. Jorden said the following at 10:48 PM on Nov 24:
10
Yeah, I've noticed that in my church too. We're going through a transition time with an interim pastor, and we're wayyyy behind on budget. We'll hopefully have our new pastor soon and maybe we can get back better on track with the budget.
Random example: My ex-gf's family didn't tithe regularly and when I found that out I was surprised. I have always been a strong advocate of tithing, and it made me sad that they weren't willing to trust God with those funds.
Also on that statistic; Wow, 2 cents for every dollar. I think we need to be doing way better than that. Luckily, my church does, as far as I can tell. We put a lot into missions.
11. Joseph said the following at 1:20 AM on Nov 25:
11
I heard focus was down 22million, that is something that needs a lot of prayer.
12. Ronnica said the following at 5:53 AM on Nov 25:
12
Looks I should continue to be countercultural and give as a twenty-something to my church that spends 1/5 of their income on missions! (Though I most certainly should be striving to do even more!)
13. obewan said the following at 6:25 AM on Nov 25:
13
">>annual reports on church giving, is now 3.4 percent, or 21 percent less than what dust-bowler counterparts gave during the worst of the Great Depression.<<"
-----------------------------------
I suppose 3.4% of a good income is still a lot more than 10% of next to nothing though.
Also, I don't think we had social security or Medicare during the great depression. In the OT, we had the "poor tithe". A full 1/3 of the tithe went to take care of the poor, widows, orphans, and disabled. It was a form of tax. Granted, we do not have a theocracy gov't like Israel did, but we still do the same thing for the poor and disabled through a tax system in the US.
If we are going to be critical, I would suggest raising the 3.5% figure by the portion of taxes that go towards taking care of the disadvantaged.
But, I can hear it already. People will say that if only everyone gave 10% to the church, and if only the church gave a full 1/3 to the poor, we would not need those gov't assistance programs.
14. Ruth said the following at 6:53 AM on Nov 25:
14
A good reminder to invest our money wisely. Money used to further the gospel etc is a safe investment whose rewards are eternal. 'Lay up treasure in heaven where neither rust nor moth doth corrupt...'
15. Sarah P. said the following at 7:35 AM on Nov 25:
15
I was first convicted about giving as a freshman in college, when my old pastor preached on the verse that says, "Where your money is, there your heart is also." It's pretty simple, and it's true. Just as praying for leaders and the world keeps me aware of what is happening around me, writing checks to my church keeps me mentally invested in its well-being.
16. DP said the following at 8:44 AM on Nov 25:
16
"Some Bible teachers point out that the tithe is what was required under the old covenant. Since the Church is under the new covenant, we should give more than 10%."
Not following your logic here...
I think one of the major problems is that most pastors do not like to talk about money until it comes time to raise some. Building a new building, time to break out a money sermon. Expanding to make more room, time to have a money sermon. Jesus seemed to talk a lot more about money than we do, and it seems to be because no one wants to step on anyones toes...
17. mary kate said the following at 9:12 AM on Nov 25:
17
i go to a great church that's very upfront about where the money goes. they don't keep much in reserve (i think 3 months' operating costs?), and fund all kinds of amazing programs. they also create tons of opportunities for people to give their time and services. i'm really grateful for how they run things; and grateful that i get to be a part of a place that has impacted my city, my state, and places as far away as sri lanka, mamelodi south africa, and mumbai india to name a few.
recently we did an all church series on giving and financial stuff, called 'consumed.' the outcome was amazing; the amount of debt people were able to pay off was ridiculous.
18. Suzanne said the following at 9:24 AM on Nov 25:
18
Matt from DC,
I'm sorry if the article is upsetting to you, but lots of research backs up the facts here. I've followed the trends of young adults and giving put out by Barna and it's dismal. Also, 20-somethings are least likely to volunteer as well (according to Barna), to answer your question.
I don't think this article should "appeal" to Christians (tell us what we want to hear). I think the facts should wake us up. Young adults (me included) are failing in the generosity department. If you and your church are not, I applaud you! But sadly, you are in the minority.
19. EconNicole said the following at 9:48 AM on Nov 25:
19
My church in my hometown (where my membership still actually is for another couple months at least) has a goal of giving 50% to missions. This year it's in the 30% range. I can't remember exactly what.
That is one important thing in looking at churches to me -- where does there money go. I left a really large church because of how much they spent on the church and grounds around it and how little they spent on missions around the world and in the community.
20. Kate (who finished her thesis!) said the following at 9:56 AM on Nov 25:
20
In my own experience, I've observed the problem of focusing on the building and not the actual ministry. In my home church, a new minister was frustrated with our stone, over 100 year old building- the roof needed fixing, the parsonage was too small, it wasn't tech savvy . . . He proposed that we sell our building in the center of town and build a new modern building out by one of the more expensive developments outside town. Well, that sounds shiny.
But what about the day care center, food bank and weekly free dinners for the hungry? One of the reasons all those programs were successful was the central location. The church ended up staying put, but it was an ugly battle.
What I'm trying to say is I think we need to guard church spending against what makes us happy and comfortable (new buildings designed by specialist architects, fancy audio systems, etc . . .) and pay more attention to putting the money to good use.
And as an art history person, I would like to politely request that the so-called modern church design stop. I'm going against my own point a little, but it makes me feel a bit weird when a church looks more like a hotel conference room than a church. Though this might be influenced by my recent viewing of the Ken Burns documentary of the Shakers. The idea of designing a chair so perfect and simple that an angel could rest in it, it sends shivers down my spine.
And I have gone off topic (again).
21. Leeandra said the following at 10:01 AM on Nov 25:
21
Question: does this survey take into account the $$$ given to non-church charities?
Half of my charitable giving goes to Doctors Without Borders (which is an international group founded in WWI by French ambulance drivers which sends medical personnel into some of the worst, most war-torn places on earth) and Goods 4 Girls (a grassroots effort to provide high-quality, washable and reusable menstrual pads to African girls, who often drop out of school at puberty because they lack adequate sanitary products).
I know a lot of churchgoers my age who give a sizeable portion of their tithe to non-church organizations that nevertheless do God's work.
22. LouiseinPA said the following at 10:56 AM on Nov 25:
22
One thing that's important is the look at what is defined as missions. Is feeding the poor a mission effort? Running a medical clinic? Or just sharing the faith with someone who has never heard it? Do other denominations give more of a percent of their money to missions? The article doesn't really answer these questions so it's not really very useful.
23. Matt from DC said the following at 11:01 AM on Nov 25:
23
Thanks Suzanne. I just find the statistics hard to believe. I'm an analyst so I spend a lot of time explaining statistics. The statements that they (Culture 11) made based off of their numbers reek of sensationalizing the truth. I know Barna is a reputable source and I believe that you have done your homework. I guess that I'm glad the article's point of view is so foreign to me.
Here's a simple example that explains what I'm saying about their use of statistics.
I assume that you inferred this "Churchgoers today give much less to the church than they did during the Great Depression." from their statement "...21 percent less than what dust-bowler counterparts gave during the worst of the Great Depression."
If you take a salary of $50,000 and determine the present giving rate (3.4) you come up with $1700. Using the average giving rate we can estimate that someone who makes $50,000 gives $1,700 of it to his or her church. Now let's use the Great Depression giving rate (21% higher) and we find that they gave $2,057 to church. Is $357 yearly really much more? Well, the difference (not the proportion) in the rates is two thirds of a percent. That seems insignificant, especially considering some of the points that Obewan made in #13.
I guess the biggest thing that bothers me about this article is that I imagine it would cause people to distrust their churches. The last thing we need is more of that. We need accountability, transparency, and involvement. I don't think we need outsiders (Culture 11) stirring people up. Now if Barna does it then it is a different thing. Do you have any links to Barna's research? I would be interested in reading their take on this.
24. BDB said the following at 11:49 AM on Nov 25:
24
Suzanne,
Now that I've read the article, I'm surprised you're quoting an article where the author is giving credence to Ellen DeGeneres' opinions. FOTF also contributed to Prop 8. Does this author also think that FOTF was wrong to stand up for biological marriage?
Personally, I think he should be far more critical about the amount of money the government wastes. Why single out Prop 8 spending?
25. Suzanne said the following at 1:11 PM on Nov 25:
25
Matt from DC,
I see your point. I just meant to imply that in our nation's greatest financial crisis (something much more dire than our current economic situation), people were giving more (not much more) than we do today. Thus, if more people tithed during the Great Depression than do today, we really can't blame our economic situation for our lack of giving. I do see your point with the statistics, however.
BDB,
Posting a portion of an article does not mean I agree with the whole thing—or even the author's conclusion. The point about Prop 8 was one opinion. The point about giving was based on statistical evidence.
26. BDB said the following at 1:33 PM on Nov 25:
26
Suzanne (#25) wrote:
>>The point about Prop 8 was one opinion. The point about giving was based on statistical evidence. <<
That opinion is a red flag. Repeating the lie that Prop 8 was about "hate" is a clue that this author's theology is probably deeply flawed. I suspect he is among those that focus on one portion of the gospel (love thy neighbor) and ignore the call to repentance and Holiness (Loving God first).
This is actually something that comes up in poor ministries quite a bit. Most successful ministries to the poor are looking for changed lives. One way to do this preaching repentance to people before giving them a box of food. Many poor ministries require attendance at chapel before the food. Benevolence ministries that help people by paying bills also must make inquiries about how people got into the situation where they need help - why no family is available to help, etc. The reality is that people do make bad choices, and we do need to speak truth to those choices.
After all, even those times when Jesus fed people miraculously, they first listened to a few hours of teaching on repentance.
27. Paul said the following at 1:39 PM on Nov 25:
27
Kevin (#5)
I find it really hard to believe that a church could fill its building for 4 or 5 services every week, but couldn't afford to give generously to missions as well as saving for a larger building.
Mind you, my own church refuses to resource its own youth ministries properly, and that is very sad.
28. mary kate said the following at 2:31 PM on Nov 25:
28
kate(Congrats on your thesis!)
great points about the building and focusing on comfort vs. ministry.
and i see your point, but the problem is that it's SUCH a personal/opinion thing. i'm a graphic designer & art teacher, and i got to a large/modern church. i LOVE it. i'm kind of a modernist, and so things like the stained concrete floors, huge open space of the atrium, amazing metal-paneled walls and the space totally speaks to me of god and creation. but that's just me, you know? but now that i think about it, maybe you and i agree more than i think.... shakers were about simplicity, and so is modernism (note that i mean real modernism, not contemporary), which i feel like my church channels.
yay, digressions.....
29. Lisa said the following at 3:55 PM on Nov 25:
29
What a timely subject as Black Friday approaches.
I encourage you to check out this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVqqj1v-ZBU&eurl=http://www.adventconspiracy.org/&feature=player_embedded
30. Melissa said the following at 3:56 PM on Nov 25:
30
It is my joy to give; my tithe checks are the first I write each month and they give me great pleasure. My church suggests a 5 percent tithe to them and the remaining five percent to the charity of our choice. I split mine between Beyond Borders and Emmaus Ministries, two incredibly worthy outreach organizations.
While there was a time when I did not tithe regularly because I believed I just couldn't spare the money, I have learned that, first, God loves whether I give or not, and second, I can never outgive Him. Each time I make a sacrificial gift, I find He's a step ahead of me. Just this month, I made a gift beyond my tithe and the very next day was offered an easy side job. And when our church called for Thanksgiving Gifts, I gladly gave, and today got a forgotten-about rebate check in the mail. I love these little surprises; it's like a game played between me and my loving Father. I give because He gives-- so much, when I deserve so little-- and I want to be like Him in every way.
31. Suzanne said the following at 4:39 PM on Nov 25:
31
BDB,
Red flag, indeed! You may have noticed the writer doesn't claim any religious affiliation. But I believe we can learn from what others are saying about us.
32. Kevin said the following at 6:13 PM on Nov 25:
32
Paul (#27)
I agree with you. I'm not trying to justify it, I'm just stating that that's the situation with the churches I'm familiar with. They all still give money, but it gets spread out over all kinds of places, and expanding is no cheap endeavor. Anyone who has been an active church member during an expansion or move to a different building knows that it's no easy task to balance giving with budgeting money for expansion.
33. Matthew said the following at 6:17 PM on Nov 25:
33
"But I believe we can learn from what others are saying about us."
Man oh man, I never thought I'd hear someone on Boundless Line say this... it is very true, although it does have it's limits (Brian McLaren raced past them years ago.)
In general, the take-home point is good:
1. Christians are sinners who are selfish with their money.
2. God calls us to something richer and more beautiful in faithful living and submissive trust.
3. Let's do it!
34. I should know the answer to this... said the following at 7:09 PM on Nov 25:
34
Can I ask what might be an ignorant question? When the Bible says tithe 10%, does that mean that all 10% must go to your church? I give 10% but I spread that amount among friends who are in missions, my church, and a parachurch organization. Should the entire 10% being going just to the church?
35. Mike said the following at 7:57 PM on Nov 25:
35
obewan (#13) wrote:
But, I can hear it already. People will say that if only everyone gave 10% to the church, and if only the church gave a full 1/3 to the poor, we would not need those gov't assistance programs.
Or, what about this: If the government programs didn't exist, would that prompt everyone to give more? In other words, have people adopted the attitude that says, "Taking care of the poor is the government's job"? Food for thought...
36. suzanne said the following at 10:46 PM on Nov 25:
36
Matthew,
I think you know I mean this in a way other than you're taking it. All truth is God's truth. If an unbeliever is saying something true, we should listen. Of course I'm not saying we should bend to the opinion of popular culture. * sigh * I'm glad you got the take-home value.
37. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:37 AM on Nov 26:
37
Part of the problem is that the Church in America as a whole is squeamish to talk about giving money in general (regardless of where it goes), else they will be Elmer Gantry branded.
The Church and many people in this country (myself included at times) have bought into the consumer mentality behind church. There is an unspoken contract between the church staff and its members: I/We give money to this church to support it. In return, I expect a certain type and amount of service in return. It could be a style of music, the types of sermons given, social activities, etc. As long as you provide this I will continue to give. But once you fail to deliver these services to my satisfaction I will take my money and go elsewhere where I can have my needs met. Unfortunately many churches, for fear of driving away members, have catered too much to this mentality. To be sure, I believe there is a time/place for evaluating a church you attend and there is a time/place for "church shopping". But those instances should be rare, and not the norm.
I theorize that this mentality is why we also give less overall. We only give enough in order to have our needs met and to soothe our conscience, but not beyond that. If our needs our being met, why concern ourselves too much about other people's needs, especially if they are far removed from us?
Finally, there are other societal attitudes as well. One of which is that the Government, not charities (including the church), should be the primary instrument of aid. This can cause us to rationalize that if we don't pick up the slack, Uncle Sam will. We also have a lack of self-sacrifice in general. You have to have your own base covered first before you help others. I agree this is true but I also believe that for many the definition of "covering one's own base" engulfs much more of a comfort zone than is necessary.
As to a general guideline on giving I reject the strict 10% mandate, but do believe that it's a good starting point if one doesn't know where to start (pre-tax of course). But I like what C.S. Lewis had to say on the topic. He believed that unless we give enough to feel that "pinch" or a sense of relying upon God to meet our needs instead of our own wealth then we probably aren't giving enough.
38. obewan said the following at 7:54 AM on Nov 26:
38
Mike wrote:
">>Or, what about this: If the government programs didn't exist, would that prompt everyone to give more? In other words, have people adopted the attitude that says, "Taking care of the poor is the government's job"? Food for thought...<<"
------------------------------------
I suppose if the gov't assistance programs were not in place, I would be willing to give even more to the poor. But, my original point was that it was the govt's job in the OT too. The difference was that the gov't in Israel was a theocracy. The "poor tithe" back then was a tax in the same way social security and medicare are today. I suspect people would not do it on their own if it were not for the laws in both cases. My church gives 10% of the tithe to missions, and only a small portion of that goes to help the poor or orphans. However, I still have the option of earmarking my checks for certain projects and I do that sometimes to support an orphanage in India that my church built. We only help food banks at Thanksgiving and Christmas. We just gave over 20,000 lbs of food to Second Harvest, but that is not something that goes on all year round.
39. DP said the following at 8:17 AM on Nov 26:
39
#34:
You are giving your money not to an organization, a church, a friend, or anyone/anything else. You are giving it to God. All of the items you mentioned are ways of giving to God, but it's important to make that distinction.
40. Matt from DC said the following at 9:03 AM on Nov 26:
40
I should know in #34,
You should back up one step further and ask if the Bible even says that Christians should give 10%. That was an underlying assumption in the the article and one many commenters hold that I do not see in the New Testament. Two weeks ago my pastor spoke about Giving to God. Here's a link to our sermon archive, look for the 11/16 message [http://www.mcleanbible.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=3673#].
In short Giving to God is an act of worship and if it does not cost us something (sacrificial giving) and if it cannot be done with a cheerful attitude it does not please God.
41. Matthew said the following at 11:50 AM on Nov 26:
41
Suzanne #36,
Oh, I'm pretty sure I understood what you meant, and I was glad to hear it here. You're right-- all truth is God's truth, but there are sections of evangelicalism (and the Boundless commenters stray into this territory occasionally) that consider disapproval and criticism from non-Christians to be a badge of honor when it sometimes (not always) is actually God speaking to us and calling us to be more careful, thoughtful, and Christ-centered about what we say. I was a little flippant about it, and I'm sorry if I worried you. : )
42. Suzanne said the following at 12:59 PM on Nov 26:
42
Matthew #41 — Then we're agreed!
43. Jo said the following at 1:19 PM on Nov 26:
43
It strikes me that 10% of a small income (going by the principle that young people generally don't earn as much as older) can be a much bigger sacrifice than 10% of a big income. Last year I was earning about £800 per month after tax, and paying £550 for rent and bills and £100 for petrol. Tithing £80 left me with not a great deal. I can understand how that could seem like too much.
Personally I tithed - and always have tithed - from my net earnings. Tax is taken from me before I even receive it and I have no choice where it goes, so I tithe on the amount I actually have in my possession to spend. I know there are different views on that, but that's what I do. So I guess you could say I really only tithe about 8%. :)
I also do what some other people have said - I sponsor a child through Compassion and give regularly to a (secular) children's charity, and I count these things as part of my tithe. As for my church, it gives a significant portion of its income away to individual missionaries and Christian charities. The schools evangelism project I used to work for, which is headed by one of my church leaders and entirely funded by donations from local churches and Christians, gives 10% of its income to other charitable organisations, which I think is brilliant.
The whole question of money is an interesting topic for me at the moment though. I think I, personally, need to get away from the '10% of my money is God's" mentality and into the "ALL my money is God's" mentality. I've recently inherited some money, and now I have to decide what to do with it. To me it's a large sum, and my plan straight away was to save it. I did plan to tithe 10% of it, but rather grudgingly, since that figure in itself seems like a lot to give away! But then I realised I hadn't even asked God what He thought. What would I do if He asked me to give it ALL away?
44. BDB said the following at 1:47 PM on Nov 26:
44
It is difficult to take agricultural terms of 10% and apply them directly to our modern world of witheld taxes. My giving is tax-deductible now that I have a mortgage, so I also make sure I give a portion of my tax return back.
I've just re-read Leviticus. What I notice most prominently is that God wants the FIRST lamb, without blemish. The FIRST fruits. The key being, not the left overs, thank God FIRST. The rest of the blessing comes later.
I usually encourage people to start by giving 10% of their take-home pay and then listen to see what God tells them to do. Getting to that point took me a few years. But once I was there, it became normal.
I don't really believe in the prosperity gospel. I will say that I ended up with a system where I give a higher % of bonuses than regular pay. It has been fascinating to watch the bonuses grow, inexplicably faster than my base pay did. I do think that the better someone gets at giving, the more resources God steers to them to give away.
45. Jo said the following at 1:57 PM on Nov 26:
45
BDB: "I do think that the better someone gets at giving, the more resources God steers to them to give away."
Brilliantly put.
46. Christina (in green) said the following at 2:06 PM on Nov 26:
46
BDB (#44),
That whole prosperity gospel...I see it as the discipline of tithing and saving actually creates a cushion (if you will) when bad things happen and suddenly you can't afford that.
For me, that's an addition $200 a week to help me get by if there's no other option. But right now, I never see that money. Its there and I'm used to living without it. So its no big deal. But when an emergency hits, I don't think God would be too upset if I used that money to handle the emergency until it was taken care of =p
And the lack of stress I feel about my finances due to that makes me feel "Prosperous" :)
47. BDB said the following at 3:30 PM on Nov 26:
47
OH! I forgot part of my theory.
The "first fruits" are the harvest.
BEFORE the harvest, rats and other pests destroy part of the crop.
I always think of government as being the pests that destroy the crop through taxes BEFORE harvest. Hence the 10% of the net.
Of course, it also means that paying tithe on social security will be necessary. Also, if you pay your unemployment insurance taxes first before tithing, then you need to tithe on any unemployment checks you receive.
The problem with being an auditor is it gets very complicated...
48. Tamara said the following at 4:09 PM on Nov 26:
48
The Bible may not say that we required, as Christians to give 10%, as that was OT Law. But, I heard a pastor speak once who presented the challenge that since we aren't required to give 10% we should go even further than that. That since we don't have to give that 10% we shouldn't see it as an excuse to give less, but an excuse to give more. That one stuck with me for a while . . . and it changed my giving habits.
10% is a great starting point, but we don't have, and I don't think we should, stop there. Sometimes circumstances may mean that giving the little that we are able to is all we can do, but one thing I have learned (and I know others have said it before me) when I give to God first I never come up short in the end. And, especially when I take a risk and give when it is sacrificial God blesses me for that faith in Him - whether it means getting unexpected money or just seeing the results of being willing to make that sacrifice.
49. Mike said the following at 5:24 AM on Nov 27:
49
obewan wrote:
I suspect people would not do it on their own if it were not for the laws in both cases.
I tend to disagree. I think folks have largely abandoned their giving because (a) they have less to give because of heavy taxation, (b) because they've been conditioned to think it's the government's job, and (c) because they want to have a nice lifestyle.
But then, I tend to think of government as a necessary evil instead of some benevolent Santa Claus.
50. Cynthia said the following at 8:02 AM on Nov 30:
50
Mike,
Look, we've chatted before, and I think you already know where I'm coming from.
--"I tend to disagree. I think folks have largely abandoned their giving because (a) they have less to give because of heavy taxation, (b) because they've been conditioned to think it's the government's job, and (c) because they want to have a nice lifestyle."
Lack of giving is a sin problem, not a government problem. You already know that I would like there to be a lot more involvement in terms of universal health care spending from the government via higher taxes, etc. so on. But whether you're a big government Christian or a small government Christian, I just really, really, really, think that the government has nothing to do with how we give and if we are using the excuse of "Oh, well, government programs will take care of it (which they really don't at this point in time), than we are using that as a smokescreen for either our lack of generosity or our lack of trust in God or both. I believe in bigger government, and I'm also able to give away 20% of my take-home pay to Church and charities. If I lived in France with a 70% tax rate that had more comprehensive social programs than we do so there are fewer poor, I would still, God willing, give what I could. I wouldn't be able to give as much, but the point is giving as much as possible, whatever that "possible" is. God's command to be generous and share one of your cloaks with the brother/sister who has none is true no matter what kind of government or taxation rate is in place because it is a matter of the heart.