A Free Guide to Marrying Well
by Steve Watters on 11/13/2008 at 8:12 AM
As Candice was preparing to release her Get Married book, I started talking to her publisher about the possibility of writing a similar book for men. We spent a lot of time debating the need and potential market for such a book. I remain convinced that the great majority of guys hope to marry well some day but often lack a good game plan to do so. Too many have missed out on the modeling and good advice they once would have gotten from dads, coaches, pastors, mentors and others.
My hope was to fill that gap with solid Biblical advice and I thought a book might be a good delivery system. The more I thought and prayed about it, the more I sensed that the best thing to do was skip writing a book and just give the message away.
I believe that A Guy's Guide to Marrying Well -- the digital booklet we ended with instead -- is a better product and will reach more people than the book I had in mind.
I have great respect for all the writers whose wisdom appears in this guide -- Dr. Al Mohler, Josh Harris, Scott Croft, Michael Lawrence, Gary Thomas, Dr. Scott Stanley and more -- and I wish this kind of resource had been available for someone to pass along to me back when I was stumbling along my path to marriage. Check it out at www.boundless.org/guys/ and let us know what you think.
1. obewan said the following at 8:52 AM on Nov 13:
I downloaded the e-book a few minutes ago and intend to read it in my spare time on my lunch hour.
It looks like a good consolidation of info published in previous Boundless articles.
Who knows, there is hope for everyone I suppose.
I just found out one of the widows in my church singles group is only 5 yrs older than me. I had thought she was 12 years older but just looked good for her age. She might be within reach if there is mutual interest.
She keeps inviting me to group lunches after church and I have only accepted one time. I suppose I have to do my part if I have any interest in her.
2. Matt from DC said the following at 8:55 AM on Nov 13:
Thanks!
3. Rachael said the following at 9:42 AM on Nov 13:
Hi, I just requested that over e-mail - thank you. I may never read the whole thing (though I sent it to my boyfriend), but quickly skimming a bit of it, I noticed that there were parts about taking initiative and pursuing the girl...
I just want to say, it can be WONDERFUL to be on the receiving end of a pursuit. I really appreciate my boyfriend's initiative. Recently I was just talking to a good friend about initiative -- there is power in that, man. I think she didn't realize how strong a force a man taking a pursuit/initiative can be (in a situation she's in - she still likes the guy and he's a close friend, but she decided to try to serve God without considering him in the future picture at this point in time).
And for me, I think a lot of my attraction to my boyfriend is because of his attraction to me. I suppose that sounds weird and selfish to people who haven't experienced that. And not all of the attraction is from that. Part of the attraction is his looks, and a BIG part of it is from his character. But it wasn't an automatic "I knew this was the one" from the get-go type of situation. If you told me a year ago that I would be married soon (we may marry in a couple months), honestly I wouldn't have imagined my boyfriend - he may seem quite different from me on the surface (age, life experiences, his often gregariousness), but we mesh quite well, share faith and depth, and we're very 'in love'. Though I guess he knew he wanted to keep being with me from our 2nd date. I don't think that would mean he knew we'd marry from that day, but somehow he was more convinced about continuing with me from then or something. And in talking with my good friend, she seemed to convey the idea that guys may 'know' sooner than the girl. I think her dad and brother feel that way...
Anyway it's very interesting. 'Love' is quite fascinating. Unfortunately I don't have all the characteristics of 1 Corinthians 13 down pat yet, and never will, but, maybe over time I'll get better at some of those qualities...
But anyway, just wanted to say I do feel there's power in the man taking the initiative and in the man's attraction.
4. Christina (in green) said the following at 10:48 AM on Nov 13:
Rachael, #3
You sound like me.
5. BDB said the following at 12:18 PM on Nov 13:
Yes, you two (#3 and #4) sound like each other...
6. Allan said the following at 12:18 PM on Nov 13:
As a guy who pretty much grew up without a father, without godly examples in the home from a father, without an example on how to truly handle the road to marriage and marriage itself I believe that this is a great idea. As men we need more godly examples as a man described as not having a father or manly figure in growing up I think we benefit the most from things like this. Ultimately this affects every area of our lives. That's why we call our God...Father. So great job and yes I just downloaded the e-book myself! God Bless!
7. dasiopa said the following at 12:43 PM on Nov 13:
Rachael (#3),
Guys often do 'know' sooner than the girl. Then the guy takes the intiative, scares the girl away, and settles into going on dates with attractive girls he doesn't even like. There may or may not be beer involved.
Intentionality: not for the faint of heart! :)
8. Andrea-Elena said the following at 2:45 PM on Nov 13:
SOACAWMAACL..... standing on a chair, waving my arms, and cheering loudly!! =)
Wahoo, Boundless!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Note: I'm actually back to blogging. Y'all come on over and read! *grin* [See my name for linkage.])
9. Oh Louise! said the following at 8:14 PM on Nov 13:
Sweeeet! I'm downloading this and forwarding it to my male chums. I'd like to read some honest reactions from the men who have read it.
10. Aimee said the following at 11:01 PM on Nov 13:
Can you make a similar online booklet for girls??
11. hxcjf said the following at 6:01 AM on Nov 14:
Free ebook was definitely a better call...you would have been hard pressed to get guys to pay 14.95 for a relationship book. :) I enjoyed it...its a great summary of everything you've been saying to guys all along.
12. Emmie (also from DC) said the following at 7:10 AM on Nov 14:
Allan (#6) - thanks for your comment and openness. I know a lot of men like you. I have one friend whom I admire tremendously and have a lot in common with - one would think we might be a match - but his heart is so skewed by his negative experiences that he's not interested in getting married, period. It's startling when someone who is living their life for God so intensely in so many ways could have this attitude, but when I look at his family history and experiences I see that what he really needs is for God to heal his heart in this area.
I also know many women who have grown up without good examples. In fact, I'm one of them! I had to learn about courtship and marriage from sources outside my family. I am thankful for Boundless because the perspective the writers offer has definitely supplemented my learning from the Bible, from healthy married couples, books, etc.
13. Ruth said the following at 12:12 PM on Nov 14:
Thank you Boundless very much for the e-book. It truly is an invaluable source.
14. Freddie said the following at 2:05 PM on Nov 14:
Thanks, Boundless! I've found many books for women desiring marriage, but only very few for men. You're definitely filling a gap here - and it's free too, that's great!
Just one thing I still don't like: The title of "Get Married, Young Man" - making it sound like it's on the level of getting a haircut or something...
15. Ted Slater said the following at 2:30 PM on Nov 14:
Some folks who've requested this material haven't receive it.
Here's the deal: So far, 117 of the 2,600 requests for this booklet have bounced back to us with errors. Sometimes an e-mail address appears to have been entered incorrectly, but in most cases our e-mail wasn't received by the person requesting it because for some reason we've been "greylisted."
Not sure if there's something wrong with the way we're sending it out, or if we've been added to a greylisted list by someone with malevolent intentions, or some other reason. The fact remains, though, that over 100 folks who wanted this haven't received it.
If you're among them, e-mail me at editor@boundless.org and I'll get you the info.
16. sab said the following at 6:43 PM on Nov 14:
I think it's a wonderful booklet! Have you considered making one for girls? :) We need help too! thank you
17. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:41 AM on Nov 15:
Rachael you said:
"I think she didn't realize how strong a force a man taking a pursuit/initiative can be...But anyway, just wanted to say I do feel there's power in the man taking the initiative and in the man's attraction."
I would qualify that a woman is "impressed" or finds it "attractive" only if she also has some feelings towards him before or after his initation. Otherwise, it may simply be viewed of as "creepy", "hitting on me", etc.
"If you like him it's flirting. If he gives you the creeps, it's sexual harassment." -female worker
18. Mike said the following at 6:20 AM on Nov 15:
Rachael (#3) wrote:
I just want to say, it can be WONDERFUL to be on the receiving end of a pursuit. I really appreciate my boyfriend's initiative. Recently I was just talking to a good friend about initiative -- there is power in that, man. I think she didn't realize how strong a force a man taking a pursuit/initiative can be (in a situation she's in - she still likes the guy and he's a close friend, but she decided to try to serve God without considering him in the future picture at this point in time).
Wow...doing things God's way works. What a concept.
;-)
Seriously, though, it does work. And, ladies, on a related note: If you want a man to take initiative, then reward him for it. Responding to the guy with respect - even if you turn him down - works wonders. It feeds a core emotional need he has; it tells him that his taking the initiative is appreciated, and makes it more likely he'll continue to do it.
19. composer girl said the following at 1:46 PM on Nov 15:
Good job, Boundless!
There's not really any "new" material in the booklet (as far as I can tell) for guys who have been reading this webzine for the past several years, but I think this is a great resource for two reasons:
1) For those who are new to Boundless, they get the benefit of years of quality advice that is easily accessible, and
2) For all, this consolidates tens of articles into a helpful resource that addresses numerous important aspects or relationships, instead of just one aspect at a time.
I agree with previous comments...I think something like this would also be beneficial to girls. I know we have Candice's book, "Get Married" (which I plan to purchase soon), but I would love to see a "consolidation" of all of the excellent Boundless articles out there for women into a resource like this one.
20. Kristen said the following at 2:16 PM on Nov 15:
I have to admit, that thought did come to mind for me as well, sab. :) It'd be great to get a version for ladies!
21. Kyle said the following at 4:14 PM on Nov 15:
Dasiopa (#7),
So true. I was pursuing a woman with all due intentionality, and she broke things off with me a week ago. According to her, it was nothing I had done. In other words, I did things the right way and still came up empty. I suppose "knowing" can be a blessing and a curse sometimes; you are inspired to press forward, but left to blow in the wind if things change. It's a daunting prospect, a feeling I've sought to avoid in times past, but inevitably we face these obstacles. The risk factor of pursuit definitely discourages some men, particularly Christian men, from taking the steps towards marriage. There is often a fear of being told again how sweet, thoughtful, handsome, etc. you are, but that it just won't work. Note to women: even the most well-intentioned compliments feel backhanded to a man in the wake of an emotionally traumatic instance. Guys don't necessarily need a pat on the back, just an assurance that there is a way to boldly pursue without needlessly leaving oneself open to a world of hurt. I'll definitely be reading the e-book, and I pray that other men who have suffered hurt in the pursuit of marriage will find encouragement in this calling. I'm determined to do this God's way. Peace and blessings.
22. BDB said the following at 7:49 PM on Nov 16:
As Mike (#17) points out, seizing the initiative is a double-edged sword. Two recent examples come to mind:
1) Everyone assumed that McCain would nominate an old white guy as VP. He would of course lose if he did this - the same old policies from the Republicans. So he picked a female social conservative governor out of obscurity. It was the only time he got to be ahead in the polls. She drew huge crowds, and STILL gets huge ratings in her interviews. His act of initiative will reshape the party if for no other reason than a social conservative has the national stage to explain why she believes what she believes.
2) McCain suspended his campaign to work on the bank bailout. His information was correct - House Republicans and the public were furious, and they were not being listened to. He got their concerns on the table, and I personally think that his taking the initiative resulted in a much better plan. I strongly favor investing in companies, not buying toxing mortgages. That was a supid plan. But threatening to skip the debate freaked people out and he never recovered in the polls.
So here is a selection from one of Elisabeth Elliot's devotionals:
If you find yourself falling for a girl who offers you only casual friendship, or worse, the cold shoulder, first get it settled with God that she is the one to pursue. Even if a woman tells a man to "get lost" but he knows in his heart she's the right one, he can still wait and pray for God's timing. I know of many married couples whose courtship began this way.
23. Brian said the following at 8:49 PM on Nov 16:
I've had it on my heart to start a small group at my church for single men who want to intentionally grow and move toward marriage. I have a number of books that I want to go through with the group (it'll hopefully be starting in Jan), but I have to say, I'm definitely going to be starting with this booklet right off the bat. I've learned and grown a lot from Boundless's articles over the past year or so, and I'm really excited to have this excellent collection of marriage-related pieces to share with the guys. Perfect timing! :-)
24. Shelley said the following at 9:14 PM on Nov 16:
As a 30 yr old single female who has a heart for all singles dating and marrying well, I am very excited for your e-book. It's good to see that I'm not the only gal who's downloaded the info! I desire for our generation to learn how to marry well and have been thinking about how convey this to our generation. I hope that I can find a way to pass on this wonderful resource--perhaps through a website blog...
Thanks for your work!
25. Rachael said the following at 11:31 PM on Nov 16:
Mike Theemling (17) wrote: "I would qualify that a woman is "impressed" or finds it "attractive" only if she also has some feelings towards him before or after his initation."
-->And to qualify that slightly, I think it's okay if the guy keeps pursuing even if the woman doesn't immediately show sure signs of interest or if she's not sure. It might take her a while to figure 'him' out and for her to figure out her feelings. It might take a little time for that to happen. But if she felt he was in the absolutely 'no way' category, it probably would be best for the guy to forever or temporarily back off and not invade her space much if at all.
But I'm not sure how the man can figure out he's in that category if she's not being clear about her feelings...poor men... They have a lot of weight to carry...glad I'm not one of them. I'm gonna marry one soon though, God-willingly ***yay***
26. Daniel B said the following at 1:50 AM on Nov 17:
#7 and #17 are dead-on accurate.
27. BDB said the following at 2:25 PM on Nov 17:
Rachael (#25) wrote:
>> I'm gonna marry one soon though, God-willingly ***yay***<<
CONGRATULATIONS!
28. Mike Theemling said the following at 3:13 AM on Nov 18:
Rachael you replied,
"I think it's okay if the guy keeps pursuing even if the woman doesn't immediately show sure signs of interest or if she's not sure. It might take her a while to figure 'him' out and for her to figure out her feelings. It might take a little time for that to happen. But if she felt he was in the absolutely 'no way' category, it probably would be best for the guy to forever or temporarily back off and not invade her space much if at all....But I'm not sure how the man can figure out he's in that category if she's not being clear about her feelings"
You hit the problem exactly with those last words. Here's the problem with the reasoning you said earlier in the paragraph: You say a guy should back off if she puts him in the "no way" category. But unless she outright says that a guy cannot tell the difference between that and the "figure him/herself out" stage as both external signals are exactly the same.
If he continues to pursue an unresponsive woman who feels "no way" towards a guy it could just cause the woman to feel bitter and resentful ("Gee, can't he take a hint and leave me alone?!"). Then she'll blame the guy for being predatory when in fact from the guy's point of view, she left the question unanswered.
I can understand why a girl would not want to give an outright refusal to an initiation as to not hurt the guy's feelings, but honestly, if you don't feel anything towards him it's best to simply tell him right away. No one likes being strung along. Or if you truly haven't decided yet "how you feel towards him" just say that. Don't answer with lame excuses such as "I'm not ready for a relationship right now" when last week you were lamenting about being single.
It can be frustrating to many guys who are told by one group of Christians to "be a man and take the initative" and then hear from another group of Christians who say, "Don't ask girls out in your singles group, you'll scare them off". Sorry, you can't have it both ways.
29. Rachael said the following at 3:11 PM on Nov 18:
Mike - good luck with all those thoughts! I'm not really professional in any way about dating issues.
I wasn't pursued much by people I didn't like in the past, that I know of. I think in general if I sensed *potential* or potentially potential interest if I had responded on a friendship level, it just wouldn't work out. I don't think I was ever really really good friends with a guy I didn't like. I suppose it's harder for guys who might be in that situation.
I'm not one who was frequently pursued.
I think one time in high school a guy asked me to a dance or something in the check yes or no style...I think I checked no and gave it back. We weren't friends, though, and I have an impression that he might have been interested in girls in general...I suppose if people did the check a box style in their older years, things would be more straightforward :)
30. BDB said the following at 3:19 PM on Nov 19:
Hmmm...Where's Tami?
Do you remember this line from Elisabeth Elliot (Quest for Love p.147):
If we imagine that happiness is to be found by furious pursuit, we will end up in a rage at the unsatisfying results. If, on the other hand, we set ourselves to pursue the wise and loving and holy will of our Heavenly Father, we will find that happiness comes--quietly, in unexpected ways, and, surprisingly often, as the by-product of sacrifice.
Remember a year or so ago when Rachael was writing about how she had to step back from a ministry situation with a certain guy? And now she's engaged. I think she just illustrated this principle...
31. Tami said the following at 4:54 PM on Nov 19:
Here I are!
I don't recall that particular quote (and I, uh, don't have the book anymore)...
But I don't disagree (that is, I do agree) with that quote. And have found it true myself. (Er, not that I'm *engaged*.) I think someone else has a similar quote about not pursuing the thing, but pursuing God and finding the thing in its proper place? Don't recall it. Maybe it's Lewis? ???
[To BDB: a few days ago, I was set to write a long post about why that book and I didn't gel. Alas, I didn't post it... but in sum, I don't doubt Mrs. Elliot's wisdom regarding seeking the Lord. Of anything, perhaps that's what has stuck with me. It's that Quest for Love is like this long scary cautionary tale of what happens when women pursue men, even to the smallest degree, like saying "hi." (At least that's how it came off to me at the time.) Never mind that I knew Christian women who had done many of the *exact same things* as the women whose stories were in the book, and ended up married...]
32. BDB said the following at 7:51 PM on Nov 19:
Tami (#31) wrote:
>>is like this long scary cautionary tale of what happens when women pursue men, even to the smallest degree, like saying "hi." <<
Yes, the Eldridges take a swipe at her in Captivating for exactly this point.
What I note is that only two of Elliot's examples are of woman who did absolutely nothing. There's another 20 examples where they did more. Even the arranged marriage story - the woman had to agree to meet with the suitors. I do think that too many people have glommed onto that one example of doing absolutely nothing.
My take from all the examples is that people should be open-minded to God moving in different ways. Just because one missionary fell in love immediately with a person they sat next to on the bus doesn't mean everyone should expect that.
But I also don't think that simply getting married ought to be the standard. I know a number of people who got divorced within a few years of getting married. The point I agree with is that those men who are willing to do more work up front are likely also more willing to stick around when something difficult happens, like child-rearing or cancer. I know a number of married women who are distraught that their husbands refuse to take any kind of spiritual leadership. It always makes me wonder if he took any spiritual leadership before marriage, of if she thought he would "change" afterwards.
I know one woman who finally asked her boyfriend to marry him, and he agreed. They are planning an outdoor wedding. A work party was planned to prepare the area, plant some new plants so they are blooming at the time, etc. Only the bride and her friends showed to do the work - no sign of the groom or any of his friends. This is a red flag, waving vigorously.
As for me, if someone I'm interested in gives me a nice birthday card, I'm NOT going to tell her, "You shouldn't give men cards!"
33. Rachael said the following at 8:58 AM on Nov 20:
BDB (30) wrote: "in unexpected ways, and, surprisingly often, as the by-product of sacrifice."
--> Wow BDB, I'm surprised people haven't walked up to me and said "Are you the Rachael who comments on Boundless?" now that they know a previous life situation and if they were paying attention to past stuff, state. Just kidding.
I could actually tie my 'how did we meet' story in connection with a recent Boundless comment discussion (one I didn't participate in) about a particular _______, (no we did not meet at a ___________, but....), but then I wonder if people might figure out who we are or who one of us is.
Anyway.
Even though at the time I may have felt that stepping down (from the Christian group of grad students I was in) was a sacrifice, it was basically something I had to do for heart control purposes. Me constantly being in some situations where he was just kept hurting my heart, I think.
What's interesting, though, is that if I hadn't gotten out of that, I probably wouldn't have joined _______ (which I'm not in anymore) and went to a party put on by one of its members and met my now fiance.
Timing things are indeed interesting.
34. Tami said the following at 11:15 AM on Nov 20:
BDB -- Wow, I never thought I'd be compared to the Eldredges. ;) I am neither "Captivating" nor "Wild at Heart". Per their definitions, anyway. ;)
But this:
"As for me, if someone I'm interested in gives me a nice birthday card, I'm NOT going to tell her, 'You shouldn't give men cards!'"
Is exactly what I am getting at, so thanks for saying it! I mean, if someone showed up at your door with balloons, a cake, an iPhone, *and* a card, well, yeah. :)
But I sent a nice card, and noticed it was propped up in a prominent place BEFORE anything was "official," so... take that EE? (jk)
35. BDB said the following at 1:07 PM on Nov 20:
Well, Tami, I think people glom onto that one story because the letter-writer states that she ONLY wants to marry someone who God speaks to directly. That may be good sentiment, but it's wrong to ignore the other 20 examples that are different.
I note that EE points out these principles aren't hers, they are much older. Indeed, I was watching a classic movie once, that was more than 60 years old, and they mentioned not taking away "male initiative," followed by laughter. It was immediately followed by asking for a show of hands asking how many women had to trick their husbands into proposing, followed by more laughter...
I think the principles are very applicable to divorced women - I seem to know several who are aggressive about taking initiative. It always makes me wonder if they did that in their first marriage, and their husband thought he could be married without doing any work, then bailed when life got challenging.
Or, more likely, they weren't Christians when they got married the first time, and there are LOTS of non-Christian sources encouraging women to take initiative. I was shocked when I accidentally watched an episode of "The Bachelor" and heard the guy complaining that the woman was making him pursue her...
I suspect that birthday observances are more important to some people than others. Perhaps they cover that in the "gifting" love language or something. Since it's not a big deal to me, I tend to forget to remind people when mine is coming up. Which is probably why my mother and my sister forgot mine this year...
Someone else remembered though. A couple of days later, when I realized she had out-done my entire family, it occurred to me that I should be paying attention. Propping a card up in a prominent location...hmmm...how to do that with an e-card...
36. BDB said the following at 1:13 PM on Nov 20:
Rachael (#33) wrote:
>>but then I wonder if people might figure out who we are or who one of us is.<<
Oops...I guess I should have figured how how to make that observation via private message...
Nevertheless, the spiritual principle holds. After all, Hebrews 11:17-19 reminds us:
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
37. Tami said the following at 1:59 PM on Nov 20:
BDB, I don't know about others, but I'm not remembering one *particular* story. Perhaps it was my frame of mind when I read it (and it's been about 10 years), but I really did feel that sense of "doom" throughout the whole book. It seemed like every letter-writer was chided for some wrong step she took along the way... "wrong steps" of initiative that led to relational doom.
Ironically, God *has* spoken to me specifically and directly. :) [Suits up for the "Does God really reveal His will like that..." questioning...]
So... I think we're still going to have to agree to disagree about her writings. :) But we definitely agree in principle.
The eCard -- hmm. Can you still print it out?
Or you can always playfully "throw a birthday cake at" her. :) [Facebook reference]
38. BDB said the following at 2:32 PM on Nov 20:
Tami (#37) wrote:
>>The eCard -- hmm. Can you still print it out? <<
It's animated with music. And Bible verses. Perhaps I could burn it to a DVD...
>>Or you can always playfully "throw a birthday cake at" her. :) [Facebook reference]<<
If she were on facebook, I could...
39. BDB said the following at 2:57 PM on Nov 20:
Tami (#37) wrote:
>>So... I think we're still going to have to agree to disagree about her writings. :)<<
Hmmm...actually, I didn't like it the first time I read it. But I started reading her other books like Discipline, the Glad Surrender and about 12 of the others. The "material for sacrifice" concept has a lot of biblical backing.
I suppose those parts of the books seemed true-er to me because they matched some of what I observed in college: women going after men and dating them for years, only to be dumped and find out he got engaged to someone else 6 months later.
I do think there is a difference between "reciprocating" and "initiating." People will give up if there's no response.
Now that you've said you've heard from God directly, you have to stay anonymous until you're engaged to someone...to see if it becomes true anyway, right?
40. Tami said the following at 3:51 PM on Nov 20:
I wouldn't reveal my identity on here, even if I *hadn't* just said that God specifically directed me to my relationship. :)
Besides, time always tells, anyway. No matter *what* situation you're in, God always makes waiting and seeing (while acting) par for the course. Bottom line is, whether you've seen a blinding light or the sound you hear is deafening silence, trust God and be obedient.
41. BDB said the following at 4:03 PM on Nov 20:
Tami (#40) wrote:
>>Bottom line is, whether you've seen a blinding light or the sound you hear is deafening silence, trust God and be obedient. <<
That's the best advice for anyone to follow!
42. BDB said the following at 1:28 PM on Nov 21:
Tami - you're right, it's possible to print an e-card, even if it is Flash. Thank you for the suggestion.